Latest / Authentic Living / Mediating Workplace Conflict and the ROR: Return on Relationships with Avinder Laroya

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Mediating Workplace Conflict and the ROR: Return on Relationships with Avinder Laroya · Authentic Living

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  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Had one.
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  It's Roxanne Durgesh.
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  Thanks for tuning in again this week.
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  Today, I have a colleague that I met just recently in Rome and had the pleasure of
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  sitting through her workshop, which was quite fascinating.
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  And this is a a Vinda La Roya, and she's based in Switzerland and she said some fascinating
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  work.
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  I often say that, you know, Wendy said, do you need a lawyer?
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  You you know, it's good to have the best lawyer, but also when you're looking at
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  mediating situations, the other end of it on a vendor does both which I loved sitting through,
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  what she shared with us in Rome.
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  So, Avinda, thanks so much for coming on and spending the time with us today.
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  Thank you for having me, Roxanne.
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  I'm really pleased to be here and and, to speak to you about mediation today.
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  So let's talk a little bit, you know, about your path.
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  Like, I often say that, you know, most of us and that, you know, I know you being from an
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  Indian background, you know, that there are families and I tell me if I'm out of line and
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  saying this, they want us to kind of do a go off and do certain traditional roles.
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  My, you know, my parents want me to be a doctor, a lawyer, engineer, or a nurse.
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  Of which I didn't fall into any of those categories.
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  And clearly, you took one of the traditional roles.
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  So tell me about the path about what made you pick the legal the legal field initially and
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  now mediation, and we'll talk about that shift.
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  Sure.
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  I mean, yeah, you hit it, the nail on the head, you know, growing up in Indian, heritage home.
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  I mean, I grew up in I was born and brought up in the UK, but, you know, a home is very much
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  Indian heritage, environment.
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  And, you know, my family are very much, focused on education and because education helps to
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  bring learning and advancement.
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  So the idea of going to university was a must, but I actually have the opportunity to choose
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  what I wanted to study.
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  I come from a family of engineers and and medical people.
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  So the fact that I wanted to study law was quite different to them.
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  Although, saying that, back in India, my family, have always been in service.
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  So they're always served in the in the army the Navy Air Force and in in government.
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  So, so it wasn't completely unique in that sense, but I had the opportunity to decide that
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  I wanted to serve, as as a lawyer.
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  And I I think watching, programs growing up like LA Law and Roncolo, the old Bailey.
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  And, you know, I was fascinated with the whole court kind of dramas that were going on in TV
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  when I was growing up.
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  And I was fascinated.
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  I've always enjoyed English history and drama, And I just felt like the law was something that
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  I could amalgamate all three of my favorite subjects.
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  And, I like, talking to people, like networking, I could never really see myself
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  sitting in a lab, you know, mixing chemicals and stuff because that just did not excite me
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  at all.
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  So that's
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  And I I I would say you're the untraditional lawyer in that I didn't know she was the lawyer
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  in the room until she says, oh, yeah.
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  I'm I'm actually a lawyer.
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  And I go, oh, okay.
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  Because I thought of her that that lands up mediator, which is it's it's such a different
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  flow.
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  So tell me, okay, so obviously your your practice was in in London, and now you're in
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  Switzerland.
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  So what happened?
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  I mean, you had a lucrative career in in law.
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  What made you want to make the shift?
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  You know, obviously, you you've been in law now for a long time.
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  And then at some point, you started your mediation, international mediation practice.
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  What was the thought process, or did you kind of fall into it?
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  What happened?
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  Well, I started my own virtual law firm as Lehman Brothers was collapsing.
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  So out of, economic downturns, a lot of people become entrepreneurial.
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  So I I had a client following at that time, and I just to give you a bit of a background, and I
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  decided I didn't wanna work for a traditional law firm.
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  I didn't like the atmosphere.
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  I felt that things could be done more efficiently, and I was very much interested in
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  what was going on in the states.
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  Especially in Silicon Valley, the whole concept of virtual law using technology of of, always
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  been a fan of technology and how it can actually help you to deliver client services
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  and deliver, legal work without, to the traditional constraints.
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  And certainly, it being more cost effective for clients as well.
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  And so I, in 2010, I actually founded my own virtual law firm, with my business partner, and
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  it's been rolling along since then.
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  And I've always been a commercial transactional lawyer, especially in commercial real estate.
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  And then, around 2015, I decided I had the opportunity to go to a conference in in Sweden.
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  And it opened my eye the world of arbitration and mediation, and I was really fascinated with
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  the flexibility and just the example that was provided as to how it really helped to build
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  bridges with without getting into the legal jargon or the legal process, and allowing and
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  empowering the people that were within the dispute to really speak up for themselves.
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  So I was really intrigued about these procedures.
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  It was not something that I was, familiar with having been on the transactional side for many
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  years.
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  And I, decided to delve further into it And I did my chartered Institute of arbitrators exam,
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  so I'm a chartered arbitrator.
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  I I decided to go the arbitration route initially because it was league it's legally
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  binding.
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  You know, it's a legal process.
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  It's an adversarial process.
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  So it's something that I was more familiar with, but it then I had the opportunity to to
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  study, an LLM in Geneva.
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  It's a very focused program called the MIDS, and it's it's quite prestigious where a lot of
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  the top arbitrators and dispute resolution experts come in and fly into Geneva and and,
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  you know, help us, to learn the different, tools and techniques of international dispute
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  settlement.
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  And part of that, you know, we managed to go into the UN, the WTO, the Hague, the
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  Netherlands, and, you know, it's a it was a fantastic experience, at, you know, a a very
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  elite level of the law, I guess.
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  Absolutely.
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  What an what an amazing opportunity to be able to be trained in that in that space at that,
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  you know, high level and to be able to take that back to kind of, you know, the the
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  mediation practice that I know you've you've developed.
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  Now people are people, a vendor.
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  Like, at the end of the day, you like you said, on the legal end, there's constraints and
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  oftentimes you get into polarized positions relatively quickly.
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  Mediation is on the I wouldn't say I don't know if it's on the complete pendulum end, but what
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  is kind of help us understand how you be from these both worlds?
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  What are what are the differences between when you're on the legal end versus the or the
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  mediation end and and what are you doing differently with people?
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  That's a great question, and it's they are complete polar opposites because as a as a
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  lawyer, as as people are familiar with, they would go to a lawyer.
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  They would tell their problem or the documentation.
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  And as a lawyer, I I would review the information, review what they're telling me,
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  and provide advice and, you know, take matters further.
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  Whether it's a legal claim or whether it's, you know, drafting a suitable response, So I'm I'm
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  very much in the in the, seat of being an adviser and an enabler to move to to take the
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  problem away.
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  Now as a mediator, it's completely opposite.
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  I am not advising I am not enabling in the sense of, taking the matter away from the
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  client.
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  As a mediator, it's really about helping someone and the the the parties in dispute to
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  really understand what's what's the real crux of the of the of the problem by facilitating
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  and listening to the dispute.
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  So I'm not telling them what to do.
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  I'm not telling them how to respond.
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  I'm really helping them to figure out why what is the problem?
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  What what what is what are the issues?
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  Because often when people are in conflict or in be they don't even know why they're so why
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  they're in conflict with the other person.
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  They just have a lot of emotional anger And so it's we don't even look.
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  I don't as a mediator, I don't look at the legal arguments.
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  I look at the people.
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  And I and I really help to listen and to and help them and help them to reflect on what
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  their needs are.
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  And sometimes their needs may be not something that may be applicable in law.
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  For instance, the dispute may be regarding a breach of contrast but what they're actually,
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  when he delved down into speaking to them, if they were actually, wanted an apology, or they
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  were wanted it to be heard, and those aspects are not ever really considered in a in a legal
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  case.
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  So as a mediator, I'm really there to listen and facilitate discussion between the 2
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  disputing parties or however many they are, as compared to being a a lawyer where I'm really
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  there advising that one person, that one party how to do battle with the other side.
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  So it's
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  So one lane.
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  Right?
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  Like, as a lawyer, you're like, this is your lane.
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  We're gonna stay in this lane.
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  But from a a mediator's perspective, what you're doing is you're really getting to know
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  the landscape of that person internally.
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  Kinda like who's important, what's important, you know, like, if they were to achieve, you
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  know, resolution, you know, what would it look like, you know, and and what would have to
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  happen for us to to get along the way.
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  And then you're doing it with 2 parties, obviously.
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  So you're you're trying to you know, balance continually to to get them a a bit closer
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  together.
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  Yeah.
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  I mean, it's not I mean, I have no vested interest Really?
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  As a mediator, whether they accept or not, I have absolutely no vested interests.
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  So, really, for me as a neutral and independent mediator, it's really about helping the 2
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  parties to listen and understand each other because they're not able to have achieved that
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  directly.
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  They've ended up in deadlock.
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  As often as the case, because we're often talking over one another and not really
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  listening to what the person is saying because we are so heightened with our emotions and
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  anger.
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  Even by being in the same room as that person, sometimes it can incite so much emotion.
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  So often, immediately, parties are not even in the same room.
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  Right.
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  And sometimes, so there's times that they are and are able to and then times that they're
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  There are different schools of thought with mediation.
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  Some mediators, would never have the parties in the same room.
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  Some may start off in separate rooms and then bring them together at some point.
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  It all depends.
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  Every dispute, every parties different, and every mediator is different in their style as
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  well.
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  And it's a journey as well.
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  Learning piece to building and mediation skills.
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  There are many techniques and tools that can be used.
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  And, really, it it's all about being focused on the people in front of you and to gain the
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  trust quickly because as a mediator, I'm neutral.
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  So I'm in I'm a no one side, and I'm in everyone's side in a sense.
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  And if that trust is broken, then that's game over for the mediation.
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  So, really, it's a matter of working with the the people in dispute as to what what what is
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  it?
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  What what do they want to get out of this the day?
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  Is the voluntary process?
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  As well.
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  That has to be, bought forward because it's a voluntary process that can leave whenever they
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  want Mhmm.
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  As well.
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  And not all mediations do end up in settlement.
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  And sometimes, depending on the parties involved, mediation may also not be suitable
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  sometimes.
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  Some disputes do need to go to
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  to arbitration.
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  Arbitration.
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  Arbitration.
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  So I'm curious.
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  When I think of your skill sets, right, like I'm thinking we're saying it would would it's
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  puller opposite, and you were practicing law for a long time, and then you go and you get
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  this amazing training.
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  What was some of the the things that you struggled with at times as you train to become
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  were there things that you struggled with or things that you really had to to hone in on
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  that skill, to be able to because, you know, like, you know, you were doing a law for, like,
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  what, 10, 15 years, and then you start mediation.
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  I I I'm curious about that experience for you.
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  Yes.
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  That's a great question.
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  And I it's a continual journey for me, to be honest with you.
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  One of the main skills of mediation is listening.
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  Now you think that that's a really easy skill, you know, The thing is we're actually in our
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  education, we're not formally taught how to listen.
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  We think we're listening.
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  And oftentimes when we listen, it's listened to respond or listen to, you know, to, to to prove
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  your point, but it's I but never listening without judgment.
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  So, one of the other things as a mediator is to be aware of our biases.
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  You know, to working through.
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  And so that takes a lot of self reflection and self awareness as well.
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  So it's a constant as a mediator, it's certainly a constant exercise as to when I'm
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  liaising with someone, am I, you know, how am I How am I thinking about that person?
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  What am I thinking?
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  Cause really, I shouldn't have any thoughts when I'm human.
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  At the end.
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  And we don't have bias.
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  We all have biases.
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  Right?
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  So I think that reflected lens, and I think I I talk a little bit about that skill in my book.
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  Because it's so very important that you really have to recognize in being human we judge, but
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  it's also a form of protection because that's kinda how we are wired.
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  But to kind of learn to sit and quiet, to to drop that lens, to say I'm gonna respond to see
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  someone that looks a certain way or acts a certain way versus kind of saying what what is
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  what is my brain on my body telling me about that person, versus kind of saying, okay, is it
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  is it based on fat or what is it based on and learning from that.
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  And also we also judge by how people communicate to us.
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  Sometimes some people are better at communicating their needs and wants.
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  Than others.
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  So naturally, we judge the one who cannot express themselves better in a certain way, and
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  that never one has to catch themselves when they're doing that because perhaps English
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  isn't their native language, or they're just finding it difficult to find the words,
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  especially in a heightened sense of emotion as often people are in disputes.
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  It's difficult for them to express their needs.
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  And so, as a mediator when I'm if I've got 2 different parties, the one is more eloquent
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  than the other expressing their needs, I have to watch myself as because it's easy to get led
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  by the person.
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  Who's the calmest person in the room?
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  Yes.
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  Yes.
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  Absolutely.
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  So that is having that awareness and then helping the person that's not able to bring out
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  their, their needs to help them to to find the words in a sense, in in their own way, in their
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  own style, and and not be able to bring whatever information that they want to express
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  to the other person, in a way that they communicate in their language and their style
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  because we all have sometimes disputes happen because they have different styles of
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  communication, and that has caused the clash.
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  Because naturally, people from different culture backgrounds or different experiences in
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  life, you know, they have different patterns, different journeys.
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  And so if those a clashing isn't it's because they haven't really understood how to speak to
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  one another.
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  Right.
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  And I think at the top, the typical kind of scenario.
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  If you're an orator and you're able to articulate and synthesize information and and
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  feed it back, that would be a party you you want to be in mediation with.
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  Well, let's talk with the the person, and I I was gonna say, guy, oh, man, but it does need
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  not only be men.
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  That get aggressive.
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  How do you deal with individuals like that, to kind of Put them into a space where they're
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  using the logical part of their brain versus kind of react in that reactive kind of
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  emotional part.
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  What are there certain I mean, you said you were there's a lot of techniques that you use,
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  or can you share one of those things that maybe you use?
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  And I'm thinking for most of us, right, is that's not something that we all wanna get
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  better at when we deal with people that are overly aggressive or react, you know, quick to
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  quick to quick to be a bit on the explosive end.
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  Sure.
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  I mean, often when people are very passionate or when they're describing the injustice that
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  they feel, they obviously have a sense of heightened emotion, and they can get quite
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  vocal and aggressive because all their anger is is coming out.
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  So at that point, the techniques and tools that I use is to listen to really listen to that
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  person and and help them to also feel that they are being listened to and acknowledge whatever
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  they are feeling because perhaps it may be something that they've never told anyone else
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  or had the confidence to tell anyone else.
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  So they may and and ensure that they are, not feeling judged and allow them to have that time
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  to say whatever it is they want to say and give them that space silence It's a pretty powerful
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  tool.
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  So allowing someone to sometimes people haven't even they've said it to themselves inside, but
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  they have never heard themselves say it.
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  So I have to sit when they've actually heard what they've said, silence is actually quite a
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  good tool to help them to reflect The other thing, I use is, in in terms of repeating back
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  what they've said so that they So they are actually hearing the words that they've said
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  and ask them, how do they feel about that?
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  You know, how do they is that the is that the is that the right word, you know, help them to,
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  work through the the emotion, the the situation in a sense.
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  And and, you know, sometimes people need to just take a step back sometimes the emotions
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  are so heightened that they need some time to pull back and to review through.
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  It doesn't have to be Sometimes, of course, in certain circumstances, there may be time limits
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  with mediation in order to especially in commercial instance where they want to get to a
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  resolution because of, you know, it's impacting project or it's impacting a deal.
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  But, when it comes to, like, employment disputes, workplace disputes.
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  I often, give the parties a few days because, I often interview and and have individual
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  sessions with the parties in dispute to understand from their point view, what's going
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  on.
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  And then I give them the time to reflect before we bring we come together as a group.
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  Okay.
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  If you've I find that once they've had the opportunity to have the tears, have the the
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  tissue pox ready, and to get everything out, Actually, they feel a lot better.
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  But just just being heard and being seen.
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  Sometimes it's It's such a powerful thing, to move along the process.
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  It is often under a ummated, but to actually give someone the space, a nonjudgmental space
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  Mhmm.
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  To just be heard and just to listen and whatever it is they they feel inside is so
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  powerful because often we have people that listen to us and then give us advice or give us
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  contrary information and, you know, that doesn't allow us to process whatever is going
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  on inside, but, through mediation, as as a facilitating, you know, it's a nonjudgmental
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  space.
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  This was such a great interview that we decided to turn it into a 2 part series Be sure to tune
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  in next week for part 2 so you don't miss out on the amazing content.
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  Thanks for tuning to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive
• 23:38
  healthy change.
• 23:40
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 23:46
  rocksandurhaj.com/blueprint.
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  We'll see you next time.
• 23:52
  Unauthentic living with Roxanne.