Latest / Kids Ministry Calling with Jana Magruder / 80. Building Biblical Literacy in a Changing World with Jeff and Jen Wilkin

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80. Building Biblical Literacy in a Changing World with Jeff and Jen Wilkin · Kids Ministry Calling with Jana Magruder

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Are you dedicated to working with kids and families in the local church?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, clearly that's more than a career, that's a calling.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Jayna Magruder, and this is Kids Ministry Calling.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, welcome back to Kids Ministry Calling.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Jana Magruder, and today we're talking about the spiritual formation of the next generation and how we can faithfully reach Jen Alpha without feeling like we have to reinvent the wheel.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm joined by Jen and Jeff Wilkin for a conversation about what kids need most as they grow in their faith.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: You probably know Jen Wilken from one of her many lifeweight studies, and I'm excited to introduce you to her husband and kids ministry volunteer extraordinaire, Jeff Wilkin.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Together, we'll discuss insights from the State of Theology report and what it reveals about biblical and theological understanding today, and what that means for the way we disciple kids.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: We'll also explore the unique challenges of reaching Gen Alpha in a world shaped by technology, artificial intelligence, and constantly changing cultural messages.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the encouraging part.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Reaching a new generation doesn't necessarily require brand new methods.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the most effective approach is to recover the timeless practices that have always shaped faithful disciples.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So how do we take those timeless methods and faithfully apply them to the kids in our ministry?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what we're talking about in this episode with Jen and Jeff Wilken.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the podcast.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be with you today.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to say thank you for tuning in.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: We have an incredible episode for you.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: I am joined virtually today by Jeff and Jen Wilken coming to us from the great state of Texas, which we've already debriefed.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And full disclosure, uh, listeners, you need to know uh that we were recording this in August, but you are seeing it in October.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it should be great weather, right?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: But today, since it is August uh what, 18th, we are both we are sweltering in both states.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, we are.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: So we're going to be indoors for the podcast capture.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: We'll just say that.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, Texas and Tennessee, and I just think a lot of the United States right now is in a heat wave.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we will get through it.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, okay.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the thing.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Jen, you and I were just talking about um how we've never met.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: We've crossed, we've crossed, we've had a lot of uh in-common connections, both in Texas and at Lifeway, but this is our first chance to meet.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know um our audience is familiar with your work and your passion for teaching uh the Bible.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh listeners, you may be wondering, well, uh, what about Jeff?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Why is Jeff here?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we have two big reasons why we have invited both Wilkins here today.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one, um, this whole season we've been talking about discipleship.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and uh there we've referenced several times a couple of different uh reports of research.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one, state of discipleship, we've referenced to, uh, and then the state of theology uh report that we have uh lifted up, looked at, and said, we don't really like this.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um I have heard Jen, you on your podcast, Knowing Faith, say sort of the same thing.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh so we're gonna talk about that.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that's number one.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: But also, we at this podcast have caught wind that Jeff Wilken is a master uh teacher in children's ministry and has been for a really long time.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so we wanna know more about that.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh just hear from both of you your shared passion for reaching the next generation, teaching biblical truth to uh to kids, preschoolers, kids, families.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's what this episode is gonna be all about.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: I say all that, and now I say welcome.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for having us on.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this is exciting.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, let's get started about this state of theology report um that we have referenced.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Jen, um, talk to us about you guys even call it a fire alarm situation.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me why.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what we're seeing in all of the metrics is that people who would call themselves evangelicals, so that's those of us who would say, Oh, yeah, I take the Bible seriously.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a regular church attender, I'm committed to being a Christ follower, that we don't understand just basic doctrine.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: So the state of theology report doesn't really get off in the weeds around things that the average person might never have heard of.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: It talks about things like the Trinity, uh, it talks about things like um the dual nature of Christ.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so the things that we're seeing in these statistics, and I apologize, I don't have them in front of me, but if you want your hair to fall into the patches, yeah, um they talk about how the uh that there are a growing number of Christians who don't believe that Jesus was fully God, they think he was a good teacher, but he was not God.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the majority of respondents said they believe the Holy Spirit was a force and not a person.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so these are concerning trends because when we talk about what it means to pass along the good generation, the good deposit, like one generation will tell the next of the wonderful works of God.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: We cannot pass along a deposit that we ourselves have not had transmitted to us.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: And what we're finding is that we have more access to ideas and to scripture than we've ever had, and potentially less comprehension of it than uh than ever before as well.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big statement right there.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've got a couple pulled up.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: The one that you're referencing, uh Life Ray Research did a little article just about this statistic, and the title was Trinity Troubles.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Americans believe God exists in three persons, but aren't sure about the particulars.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it it's confusing because um in one in one way it says there's 71% of us uh surveyed believe that there is one true God in three persons God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: But in that same part, it says only 49% or 49% say Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: So those things don't add up.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then what you referenced, the Holy Spirit is a force, but is not a personal being.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so there's confusion at the very least.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and that confusion isn't because the people taking the survey have failed.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's because the people responsible for training the people taking the survey have not shown up and done the work that they were supposed to do.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so I know that there are a lot of church leaders who are listening to this podcast.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I would just urge you to consider, you know, one of the reasons this matters is because the work of the adult minister at your church would be far less uh difficult if the work of the children's ministry were aiming at the same goal.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, that is such an urgent opportunity for us who are doing children's ministry.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: It starts in preschool, um, teaching those foundational truths that build upon uh one another all the way up into some of these, you know, deeper uh doctrines that um that you know feel abstract for a preschooler to learn, but it starts with understanding those basic truths that that we can teach from a young age.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh I hope our audience doesn't feel guilt or shame about these things, but maybe excitement and urgency about and value of um of the work that we're called to do in discipling kids uh from a very young age.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um a couple of other stats just to kind of set the stage.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we will link this report in the show notes of um so you can kind of take a look for yourself.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but all different kinds of segments are in this.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the general American population, but also like you said, Jen, we get a snapshot of even what our churches and evangelicals specifically are, how they are responding to some of these questions.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: There are there are different cultural questions, theological questions, um uh biblical authority.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So one says um 49% believe that the Bible is 100% accurate.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that's you know less than a majority.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then 46% say the Bible, like all sacred writings, contains helpful accounts of ancient myths, but is not literally true.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so those are kind of the same.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: About half of us are are in those categories.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then the one that I think we typically think is the is the counter-biblical authority is science.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's less than the ones that think the Bible is a myth.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh 36% say modern science disproves the Bible.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: So um just the basic biblical authority, what we believe about uh the Bible is is also showing up in this report.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think it's important to remember that most of what we're seeing is not a rejection of a doctrine, it's an ignorance about a doctrine in the first place.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like no one taught me the doctrine of scripture.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: I found that as uh uh in midlife, you know, no one taught me the doctrine of God.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: I found that in uh in midlife.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so what we have in an information age is a lot of people who are curators of other people's opinions about a book that they themselves don't read and um that they don't have lenses for.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we that's a term that we'll often use for um for for systematic theology, is it gives you lenses for reading the scripture.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: It systematizes things that are seen across all of the Bible.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so it becomes very top of mind, not just how do we fix the problem among adults, but how can we prevent this from happening with the next generation uh that's already in our midst, that is in that is that is being raised up in the middle of a general literacy crisis in the culture, like we're moving toward being post-literate in the United States.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we're not already there.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so um how we can't fix, we can't fix this everywhere.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the Lord promises to give us all we need.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I believe we can fix it within the church if we see the problem, acknowledge that it's a real problem, and then start moving um toward what really are not new practices, they're old practices recently forgotten.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a it's an act of reclamation.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's restoring to the church something that we just forgot.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Jeff, what what's your reaction to some of these statistics?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, I get motivated and excited to think about um just you know, I'm just reflecting on my experience um in children's ministry and just the different things that we have done um to really combat this and build a foundation.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so I'm like, oh, we're doing okay.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, and I and I think I think that's one thing you can take is like thinking about what you're doing and how does it align to kind of combat some of these things.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that they've done a lot of work with in the children's ministry that Jeff's been a part of is starting in the right place with theology.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of times children's ministry starts with the doctrine of sin, you know, like, hey, we got to deal with your sin problem.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: And for very small children, that's an abstract idea.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's hard for them to even uh conceive of it.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: They know when they do something bad, they get in trouble.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: When they do something good, there's usually reward.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's good with children's ministry to start where the Bible starts.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's a reason that we teach doctrine in the order that we do in general, like in a seminary or in an adult class.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the Bible doesn't start with the doctrine of sin.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's Genesis three.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: It starts with the doctrine of God in Genesis one, and then it moves to the doctrine of man.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it answers the question, who is God first?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then it answers the question, who am I?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then we get the bad news, right?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so, especially with small children, one of the things I've loved about the way you guys do it is you start with the doctrine of God and you don't assume that a small child is too small to understand uh that, and then you move to who are you?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: If that's who God is, well, guess what?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're precious to him.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I, you know, and I and I think about you know, combating some of these statistics, and just um, I think one of the foundational things that we've done is created uh our own language.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like what's our theology, right?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so when we talk about God, who is he?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: When we talk about the Bible, what's the what's the definition?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: So we have just definitions for everything that start when kids are first in preschool and they go, you know, all the way through all the elementary years.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so what does it mean to be a Christian?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: And someone who knows, loves, trusts, and obeys Jesus, you know, and that is said from the very beginning all the way through.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just how how can you say different things?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we have one God and three persons.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we have one God.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's just the things that we say over and over again, um, that just build in those foundational truths.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: And just like we teach our kids to say please and thank you before they mean please and thank you, you know, our kids can articulate the doctrine of God before they really can conceptualize what the Trinity is, and not that we can any any of us can conceptualize the Trinity really well, but just the idea, you know, that's very abstract.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: But being able to just say the words and then attach meanings to things that are just baked into their heads as they grow and mature is just so valuable.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, to have like a glossary of terms, essentially.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's what I mean.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, if um if there are any uh women listening who have done my Bible studies and you've seen the list of the attributes of God that we put in the back of the studies, those are actually adapted language from what we use in the children's ministry.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: And when we started doing that at our own church, it meant that parents and children started to operate from the same glossary, so to speak, and um, which ends up helping with family devotions as well.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because anytime you're talking about um, like uh if I said God is good, how would you define it?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: I don't remember.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: He is what's best, he does what's right.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: I put him on the spot.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: You put on the spot, you're like, I have no idea.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and if you're not watching this, they are attached uh by headphones.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: They're they only have one pair of headphones, and so one has one, one has the other.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you really did put him on the spot.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so anyway, it's it's looking for ways to um layer concepts to repeat, you know, repetition is the mother of learning, and it's the mother of learning for children and adults.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, you know, I know all the the uh leaders who are listening would would affirm that if you can teach children, you can teach anyone.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: What we found is that when we started employing, there was a point in our church service, in our service in the local church, where the children had better theological language around the doctrine of God than the adults did.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, for sure.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh we start because the children's ministry had gotten ahead of ahead of it on uh on training um children into these truths.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so we started aligning the adult ministry with what the children's ministry was doing.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: And ideally, you would do that all the way through.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh middle school would pick up on the definitions that were built out in the early phases and and and broaden them out as age-appropriate ways, and then high school.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: But what so often happens is you get out of elementary school and it's a whole different agenda when you get to middle school and high school.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: They're not connected in any way.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so, from what your ex your experience with working with local churches, what would y'all say is happening when they graduate from elementary?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: What what what's going on in student ministry, generally speaking?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's not really any one blueprint for student ministry other than it gets very high relationship very fast, which is critical.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I wanted that, you know.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's a you want that that other trusted adult who is not you to reinforce the messages that they've been learn, learning.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: But if you think what happens in student ministry, that is another thing that happens in middle school and school is the bar starts to really go up on what is required of children, like personal responsibility, turn things in on time, you're gonna start to learn hard things that require a lot of you.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it's right at that point in the local church where we often say, you know what, you're super busy with your sports team and your homework.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're gonna make this as easy as possible for you.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason they value the sports team is because the sports team asks a lot of them.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we get to middle school and we go, you know what, this is no longer a learning space for you.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: We're communicating that you're sort of done with the learning part and now just do devotional content.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't thought of that exactly that way, but it it's it's true.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh we talk a lot about um the levels of biblical learning on this uh podcast.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you all have ever heard of that, but um, sometimes we just call it ages and stages.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: But basically, it is um based on 10 different age groups.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, eight different age groups from from birth all the way up to high school.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: And within those eight age groups, there are 10 biblical concepts that have statements for what each age group can start to understand.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so that document, if you will, um, was um developed years and years ago at LifeWay uh in partnership with um seminary professors, um church leaders, teachers, uh, child development experts that came together and thought, okay, all these kinds of documents exist for just physical and mental and emotional child development.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: How does that look in a spiritual way?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And how can we start to teach these truths to a very young toddler, even?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: What can a toddler understand about who God is?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um then start to build upon that.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a great reference point for Sunday school teachers and ministry leaders, and really now that it goes all the way up to high school, it's a great planning document for doing discipleship planning of here's what graduating fifth graders are going to.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Our goal in children's ministry is to make sure that they understand these concepts at this level.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then, you know, a student pastor could take that and keep going, um, but having something to reference to.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we we mention that tool.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a curriculum, um, but it's a a um uh a discipleship strategy, I guess, to be able to reference and see uh this preschooler thinks very concretely, sort of like what you were saying, Jeff, of um concrete thinkers.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: What can they understand now?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then how do we build upon that as they become uh more developmentally ready and can think about abstract things like sin, like the Holy Spirit and things like that.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of something that takes the guesswork out of that.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or even for our parents that might feel intimidated by um by theology and uh the Bible.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, statistics would tell us that most of our adults, like you said, Jen, um are biblically illiterate, even in the church.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so how can we partner with them?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Just that's one example of a tool, listeners, that we talk about a lot on this show.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we'll link that in the in the show notes.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: But um back to Jeff, some of the things that you do.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, tell us about what ministry looks like for you uh working with kids.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, so I started doing ministry when my kids were little, probably in 2005, 2004, 2005, and have pretty much done it continuously up through today.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so my kids graduated out of you know elementary and moved on, and then um they uh yeah, all four of them, all five of them uh showed up to serve in kids' ministry with me.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was fun.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: Some played in the worship band, some led small groups, um, and just helped um teach kids, and so that was really exciting.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, my my primary roles were um leading worship for kids and then um teaching in the large group setting.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: More so curriculum writing too.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then as we went on towards the last year's, I Wrote a lot of curriculum.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, good to know.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and my my favorite thing to do was uh vacation Bible school.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yes.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I loved I love teaching the lessons there and just seeing all the kids of all the different ages and whatever.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, culminating event, VBS, so great.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, so I think it's it speaks volumes that your kids started serving with you.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we talk a lot about just the value of um parents modeling that, how to serve in church, so that our kids will actually do that when they get older.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's hard to um say serving is what they're supposed to be doing if they don't necessarily have a reference to that.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know my my kids are um in their college and young adult years, and um I want it to occur to them when they go to a church on their own that they should serve, you know, not just attend.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think the you know, the instinct would not be to to serve if you didn't have that as a as a model.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: So so important.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we love hearing those examples.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and I think one of the things is as we talk about just this topic of biblical literacy, is like you don't really uh you you demonstrate that you understand a topic when you can tell it to someone else.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, right.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: So it's always the last step as you learn and tell.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so it for a sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth grader serving in kids' ministry, what an opportunity to just regurgitate the things that you spent time learning and solidify them in your mind um, you know, as as a teenager, right?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: And and really prepare yourself to expand on those topics.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I I just always thought that was great.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: And it was just a um a way to even continue those conversations with our kids as they got older about just the the things that were taught and the things that we're learning and um what questions they have, and you know, how are we uh understanding this in an adult way, not just in the children's way, and and you know, where are we headed with all this?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you've been doing this a while.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't tell you I was gonna ask you about this, but I'm just curious what you think.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Gen Alpha, kids today, okay.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: How have you what changes are you seeing and how are you adapting your your strategies to to serve Gen Alpha?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I want to say I'm not, um, probably.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um That's what I was hoping you would say.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's not like we've introduced technology or done those things, you know, in in our children's spaces.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, one of the things that I that drew me to children's ministry or that I just enjoy about it is and really focus on is really seeing kids as people and not just as kids, you know, not as kiddos or whatever.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like, no, these are the people in my ministry space.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so who are you?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, when I see you in the hallway at church with your parents, do I interact with you and not just your parents?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: And just, you know raising up their their visibility or their sense that, oh, this person will engage with me in in a casual way.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so then I'm much more open to that relationship as a teacher or whatever.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so I, you know, I think there's there's a big relational component to, you know, ministry at all levels and the community and how and how do we interact with each other.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so those spaces um are device free, they're relationship heavy, they're like, how do we know each other?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think being able to being able to focus on those things is just kind of a foundational piece.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, how do we interact with people who just happen to be 11 years and younger?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: We know those relationships are huge.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: And even specifically with Gen Alpha research says that the number one thing that they need is belonging.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so we build that belonging through relationships.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I love how you said even seeing them in the hallway and not necessarily making a beeline to just their parents, but but interacting with them, knowing their names, knowing what what's going on in their lives and being able to ask them about that.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's just huge.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh statistically, um research says that uh kids who grew up with an intentional adult at church in their lives, so this would be um not their parents, but someone else like you.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Do they call you Mr.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Jeff, Mr.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Wilken?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: They do, brother Jeff.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Mr.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Jeff.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Mr.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Jeff.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um let's go to Bro Jeff.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I mean, a Mr.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Jeff, that many of them will remember you for their whole lives because of that investment.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's it that's just a on top of the theology and the teaching of biblical truth that we're talking about, that overlaid with the relationship piece is why children's ministry specifically is just so important and urgent work in ministry.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's it thank you for sharing that.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's excuse me, ran out of voice.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, okay, back to Gen Alpha.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I did include this in our notes of maybe we could discuss this a little bit, but um we talk a lot about Gen Z being digital natives.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: With Gen Alpha, we're talking about a being AI natives.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: So so they will never have known a world without AI in it.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um how is that going to affect not just uh Gen Alpha, but just all of us as we approach things like studying the Bible.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Jen, I'm curious to see what you say about this one.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, am I worried about AI?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um bottom line.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: I I think the way that I think about uh every new wave of, oh no, this is the next big thing is um 1 Corinthians 13, uh 10, no temptation has overtaken you except that which is common to man.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so while there may be new ways to sin, there are no new sins.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so I, you know, and this isn't, and with the temptation, God is able to provide a way out.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so um I think what we're we we sort of present it is like this is unprecedented, how are we gonna face this?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: This is gonna overwhelm us.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: And um, for the children of God, that hand wringing is just it's not appropriate.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we should be asking instead, what's the way out?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like what's the there, there are always gonna be technology is morally neutral.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so what are the positive uses for it?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: What are the negative uses for it?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and what we've seen with our kids is, you know, they grew up, they were on the front line of um smartphones and all that kind of stuff, right?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: Social media, all of that.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so they are more or less digital natives, like they may have had some early memories of none of that, but not much.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: They are so much more self-controlled and disinterested with those things than their parents' generation.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so I have to wonder if we won't see a similar thing happen with AI.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: It will be something that they may find use for, but they're not going to be obsessed with it the way that those of us who were alive when these things didn't exist feel like they're just major magic tricks.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I was thinking more a little bit tactically, just around um are we as learners, are we being fostered into a just understanding why we know something, why we, you know, where did we learn it?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like I feel like we grew up that way.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but even our kids, like it made me think of like Wikipedia.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: And our kids were like, we're not allowed to use Wikipedia.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, Wikipedia is not like the source, yeah, but it can look like look at Wikipedia's sources because that's where the the original information is coming from.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I I think a little bit of the same way with AI, it's like there's gonna be an answer here, but why is this the answer?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: And not being satisfied with saying, okay, that's the answer, it must be the truth.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like, why is that is that the answer?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so why did this come up and how does that change the way I think about something?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: And why does it make me feel a certain way?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: And and you know, and where did that information come from?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I think we've kind of lost this muscle.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so, you know, as parents, as teachers, we can help kids to exercise it.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, you know, there are a lot of things like the Trinity is a top, is, you know, a concept that like has this definition and it's based on research and scripture and and has been formed over years and years from the church.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: Well, why?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: Why is that, you know, how do I it it doesn't take a lot of unpeeling to to be able to go to your child.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: I don't completely understand this, but I'd love to figure this out with you.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: And and just this creating a just a culture of learning that that that questions in a positive way, it questions in a how do we how do we dig to find the truth.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: And the and the joy of shared discovery, which is something that I was the the shared piece is something that I wanted to point to because I think that the church has coasted on a uh let's call it a selling point for salvation, and that is you get a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's a really important message for children to understand.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's just not the whole message uh because to be saved into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is to be saved into relationship with one another, the church of all time, the church moving forward, and the church of today.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so the doctrine of the church, I think, is is due for a glow-up.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is um time for them to be reminded hey, this is you know, you can have a personal relationship with AI.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's not gonna get you through.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so, in an age of rugged individualism, AI says, yep, just you and me, we've got this.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: And if the church is saying essentially the same thing about Jesus, we've also missed the mark on that.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like a personal relationship matters, but what we've told children and adults is the most important time you spend interacting with the Bible is you and Jesus.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not true.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: The time we spend interacting with scripture is meant to take us to time where we're interacting with other people and having conversation and learning alongside each other.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then those who have the gift of teaching are pulling us forward.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so embodied teaching has always been a feature, not a bug, of what it means to be a part of the church, the big C church, and also the local church.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think if we don't start to reclaim that and reclaim it pretty quickly, and we just keep um keep uh placing the emphasis on individual experience of the faith, um, then we're gonna, we are gonna face issues with with anything that presents itself as a nice individual substitute.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and as long as people realize, oh, I can't do this alone, and all of this is meant to be, all theology is meant to be done in community.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, then if we start training children into that, then um there's a, I feel a great deal of hope that the church might actually do what it did in a pre-literate age.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: It can do the same thing in a post-literate age of calling everyone back to uh literacy together for the sake of knowing and and having relationship with this God that we say that relationship is so precious with.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: On that note, another fire alarm from that state of theology uh report is uh this reaction to the statement worshiping alone or with one's family is a valid replacement for regularly attending church.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Those numbers.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they people said, yeah.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so uh COVID, of course, introduced um uh a spike in that.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but and it we've kind of come back down a little bit, but it's still um clear that many evangelicals believe that that's perfectly fine to not be part of a local church.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, think of all the things that we've said.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: Church is not a building, it's the people.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: So why would I go to the building?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um, your personal relationship with Jesus is what matters most.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then why do I need to gather with other people?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and so what COVID did is it rubber stamped what the church had already implicitly or explicitly been teaching for about 30 years before COVID hit.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's our report card.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's not something that instigated something.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, um, I didn't even know we were going to go there.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: Too what, hon?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: What's the word?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: Direct.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I think with with the AI conversation, we keep going back to the primary source of the Bible being the ultimate truth.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I encourage leaders to keep, you know, getting children to bring their physical Bibles and going back to God's word is true, because back to them being AI natives.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to be questioning, well, is this true?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or I I don't know if this is real, or did AI do this?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we can continue to go back to scripture and say this is the ultimate truth, which is all the reason more for the value and importance of what we're doing in children's ministry.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you guys both so much.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: I knew this would be a fascinating conversation, and I really wanted it to um be from both angles of just let's evaluate some things of where we are as uh as Capital C church, but also to intersect that with just the value of children's ministry and doing um uh faithfully serving for decades.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we're so grateful for your story, Jeff, of how you have done that and how um the your adult children have have followed both of you in your footsteps and serving the church and valuing the church and um and God's word.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you both for what you do.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having us on.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's been fun.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime we'll have to do it again.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: And um, we'll close it out here.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, listeners and viewers, thank you so much for joining us.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Know that Lifeway is by your side.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: We are cheering you on as you serve kids and families in your local church.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you in the next episode of Kids Ministry Calling.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: This episode of Kids Ministry Calling Podcast was brought to you by our amazing team, including executive producer Angie Elkins, producer Nikki Ogden, edited by Trey Garza, and recorded in the Lifeweight Podcast studio in Rentwood, Tennessee, with Sound Engineer Donnie Gordon.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: And artwork by Cameron Wilson.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm your host, Jana McGreater.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Kids Ministry Calling.