Latest / KNEO Podcast / Marriage Life and More and Bible Study - The Pastor Gave Up! God Didn't! - Marcus and Keli Keener - 370

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Marriage Life and More and Bible Study - The Pastor Gave Up! God Didn't! - Marcus and Keli Keener - 370 · KNEO Podcast

• 0:05
  Daniel Moore: Marriage has a funny way of revealing things about you that you were perfectly happy keeping hidden.
• 0:10
  Daniel Moore: You know, patience you thought you had, anger you thought you had under control, and a shocking discovery that your spouse apparently remembers things you said 17 years ago, word for word.
• 0:20
  Daniel Moore: But sometimes God uses marriage, difficult circumstances, and the people he puts around us to expose something much deeper.
• 0:27
  Daniel Moore: Not to tear us down, but to completely transform our lives.
• 0:31
  Daniel Moore: This week we're sitting down with Marcus and Keli Keener to hear a powerful story of marriage, salvation, prayer, anger, healing, and what happens when God gets a hold of a heart that everybody else thought might be too hard to reach.
• 0:44
  Daniel Moore: We're going to talk about a wife who prayed, a pastor bold enough to show up, a husband who wanted nothing to do with Jesus, and how God began rewriting not only one man's life, but an entire marriage.
• 0:56
  Daniel Moore: And trust us, this story proves that when God decides to start renovating your life, he doesn't always ask whether you're ready for the construction career.
• 1:04
  Daniel Moore: Welcome to Marriage Life and More.
• 1:08
  Daniel Moore: This is a podcast about marriage, Bible, and book studies.
• 1:11
  Daniel Moore: We interview people that have inspiring stories.
• 1:12
  Daniel Moore: I'm Daniel Moore, your host, and sitting over here next to me is my beautiful co-host, my wife Michelle.
• 1:17
  Daniel Moore: Hey, hey.
• 1:18
  Daniel Moore: Thank you guys for joining us this week.
• 1:19
  Daniel Moore: If you're not familiar with our show, check out our website at marriagelifeandmore.com.
• 1:23
  Daniel Moore: The links to our platforms are there.
• 1:24
  Daniel Moore: We're on YouTube and Rumble.
• 1:26
  Daniel Moore: We're also on your Alexa and Google Smart Devices.
• 1:28
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• 1:33
  Daniel Moore: If you're a fan of our show, please subscribe.
• 1:36
  Daniel Moore: Feel free to leave a comment on our platforms, give us a thumbs up or five-star review and Apple Podcast.
• 1:40
  Daniel Moore: And we thank you in advance for doing that.
• 1:43
  Daniel Moore: Well, this week we are continuing our little mini-series that we're doing with couples doing interviews that we have called Marriage Unscripted.
• 1:53
  Daniel Moore: And this week we have another couple with us, and we want to welcome to our studio Marcus and Keli Keener.
• 1:58
  Keli Keener: Woo! Hello!
• 2:00
  Daniel Moore: Thank you guys for coming in and sitting in with us this week.
• 2:03
  Daniel Moore: We truly appreciate that.
• 2:04
  Daniel Moore: And we've got a treat for everybody out there.
• 2:07
  Daniel Moore: They, you guys have an awesome testimony, and we've been really excited to have you here to share that.
• 2:12
  Daniel Moore: And so, so this week, just go ahead and kick back, get your coffee, whatever you need to do, and just relax.
• 2:19
  Daniel Moore: And we're gonna go ahead and jump into this episode with Marcus and Keli Keener.
• 2:23
  Daniel Moore: And I think uh the thing that always comes to my mind when I uh interview people or get to hear other people's stories, I think sometimes what's amazing to me is just how God can move in some situations that just look impossible.
• 3:07
  Daniel Moore: And I know, you know, Michelle and I, we've been an open book for the last two years, just sharing every little skeleton in our closet.
• 3:15
  Daniel Moore: And we still got some we haven't shared yet, actually, and we'll get to those eventually.
• 3:19
  Daniel Moore: But um, you know, a lot of people, when you share your stories like that, and there's just a lot of baggage, a lot of things there, you'll have a lot of people that are just like, What in the world?
• 3:27
  Daniel Moore: You know, there's no way I could share something like that.
• 3:29
  Daniel Moore: Can't believe you guys are talking about that, you know.
• 3:32
  Daniel Moore: But I think when it comes down to it, there's a lot of people out there in this world that's hurting.
• 3:36
  Daniel Moore: And they're going through relationship issues, they're going through marriage issues, and sometimes a lot of those things are exactly what we've been through, what things like you guys have been through.
• 3:46
  Daniel Moore: And we know that God doesn't want us to waste our pain.
• 3:49
  Daniel Moore: And that's just something that I think, you know, we've always kind of just drilled into different episodes that we've done here on this podcast.
• 3:57
  Daniel Moore: And this week's story is no exception.
• 3:59
  Daniel Moore: Uh, you guys have heard uh a lot of your story, and you guys have an awesome testimony, and I'm super excited to have you guys share that this week.
• 4:08
  Daniel Moore: And uh so as we get started here, I think we just we'll start this off kind of like how we normally do.
• 4:15
  Daniel Moore: Um, I'd like for you guys just to take us back to the beginning of your relationship.
• 4:19
  Daniel Moore: You know, what was you guys like when you first met and what initially drew you to each other?
• 4:24
  Daniel Moore: Neither one of you can start.
• 4:26
  Keli Keener: I think I'll start.
• 4:27
  Keli Keener: I like to be first.
• 4:28
  Keli Keener: Ladies first.
• 4:30
  Keli Keener: That's right, that's right, ladies.
• 4:32
  Keli Keener: Um I think Mark and I met.
• 4:35
  Keli Keener: Um I had just moved to Cushing, Oklahoma.
• 4:39
  Keli Keener: My parents had recently divorced, um, and going through um that divorce was really hard for me and my sister.
• 4:47
  Keli Keener: I have a twin sister, and it was really hard for us.
• 4:49
  Keli Keener: And um, and so we had just moved to a new town.
• 4:53
  Keli Keener: It was like seventh grade, and so it was, you know, middle school and awkward anyways, right?
• 4:58
  Keli Keener: So and we were twins, and so um, anyways, we were a little bit of a novelty because we looked alike, you know.
• 5:05
  Keli Keener: And so um so through that that trauma, there's some childhood trauma, our parents divorced, some other things, and so through that I ended up with my grandma and my great grandmother.
• 5:17
  Keli Keener: And my grandmother loved us dearly, but I think um she struggled with caring for two teenagers.
• 5:26
  Keli Keener: You know what I mean?
• 5:28
  Keli Keener: I think it was hard for her, but she really loved us and really wanted us to turn out okay.
• 5:32
  Keli Keener: Um, and then Mark.
• 5:34
  Keli Keener: So I moved in with my grandma in Cushing and we lived in duplexes, and Mark and his family moved in like two duplexes down, and so there's these little two little native boys playing basketball every day, and we would sit and watch them and like oh look at them, they're so cute, whatever.
• 5:51
  Keli Keener: And go check the mail because he lived by the mailbox, you know, all the things, right?
• 5:56
  Keli Keener: And so that's kind of how we met was just kind of living in that same community.
• 6:01
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 6:01
  Keli Keener: And then Mark had just moved to Cushing, and you can kind of share that story.
• 6:05
  Marcus Keener: Well, mom and dad got divorced when we was like second grade, and um mama took a job in a making milk bottles in Cushing.
• 6:15
  Marcus Keener: We lived in Drum Right, about ten miles over, and so we moved over there as as freshmen in high school about a quarter of the way through the year.
• 6:24
  Marcus Keener: And uh so we moved in, like I said, there was a duplex in between us and they you know, and so it was it was an interesting community to move to, that's for sure.
• 6:36
  Keli Keener: It really was.
• 6:37
  Keli Keener: There's several of us teenagers and we just really had a good time.
• 6:40
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, a lot of us the same age.
• 6:42
  Marcus Keener: It was in that little cul-de-sac.
• 6:45
  Keli Keener: And so Marcus asked my grandma if I could go to the movies with him.
• 6:49
  Keli Keener: And she said yes, and then she says, Oh, Keli, Friday night you go to the movies with Marcus.
• 6:53
  Keli Keener: I'm like, What?
• 6:55
  Keli Keener: And yeah, that's how my first date got asked, was he asked my grandma.
• 7:00
  Daniel Moore: Remember what movie you watched?
• 7:02
  Keli Keener: I thought it was Karate Kid.
• 7:05
  Daniel Moore: The the first one?
• 7:06
  Keli Keener: I think I was thinking it was, but it may not been.
• 7:09
  Daniel Moore: I don't think so.
• 7:10
  Daniel Moore: We we don't know.
• 7:11
  Keli Keener: That's a long time.
• 7:12
  Keli Keener: What did you think it was?
• 7:14
  Marcus Keener: I don't know.
• 7:15
  Marcus Keener: I know we had to walk all the way across town to go to the movies.
• 7:18
  Marcus Keener: But we were poor.
• 7:19
  Marcus Keener: We didn't have cars, so we're we were young.
• 7:22
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, sometimes they're so far away those memories just vaporize, you know.
• 7:26
  Daniel Moore: Michelle and I are like that too.
• 7:28
  Daniel Moore: It's like I'll be saying something and like I know that happens, you're like, no, it didn't happen like that, you know.
• 7:32
  Keli Keener: It's like that's what I remembered.
• 7:34
  Keli Keener: Yeah, we do that too.
• 7:36
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 7:36
  Daniel Moore: You get older, it's just that stuff starts happening, you know.
• 7:40
  Daniel Moore: Um but but that's awesome.
• 7:43
  Keli Keener: And so living in Cushing, um, that community there back then was the best place to heal my little heart.
• 7:50
  Keli Keener: Um, there was a sense of community, and I felt at home, I felt cared about.
• 7:55
  Keli Keener: Um, even with the cu the teachers, you know, um people breathing life into me.
• 8:00
  Keli Keener: Uh a few Christian friends that I really didn't even realize were Christians.
• 8:03
  Keli Keener: Like we went to a, I think it was a Toby Mack concert back in the day at a church, and um, and that was way back.
• 8:10
  Keli Keener: I mean, he was just starting.
• 8:12
  Keli Keener: And so I just kind of remembered things like that, just different people God put in my life during that time.
• 8:16
  Keli Keener: And I just that community, I just shout out to that community because it was just so good for me in that season.
• 8:22
  Daniel Moore: I saw for sure.
• 8:23
  Keli Keener: I actually I went to and saw DC Talk when they first almost been DC Talk and not Toby Mack, yeah.
• 8:31
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, it's possible because it had to be I got to see him in Springfield one time and then after we've seen Toby Mack a s you know a few times since past those days, but yeah, it has been a while.
• 8:43
  Michelle Moore: So um before Christ became your central to your lives and your marriage, what were some of the biggest struggles you faced individually as a couple?
• 8:55
  Marcus Keener: I would say communication.
• 8:57
  Marcus Keener: And our our ideals were we was both looking for a way out, somebody to save us from where we was at.
• 9:09
  Marcus Keener: And we leaned on each other and had no idea where we what we was doing or where we was going.
• 9:15
  Marcus Keener: I mean it was we literally was two kids trying to trying to figure things out and we wasn't doing a very good job of it in the beginning, you know, so um I agree.
• 9:27
  Keli Keener: I am I think for me personally, my own struggle was I didn't really I don't remember thinking a lot about being a good wife, but I wanted to be a good mom.
• 9:37
  Keli Keener: That was my focus.
• 9:38
  Keli Keener: I wanted to be a good mom.
• 9:40
  Keli Keener: I, you know, I feel like we all want to fix the things our parents didn't do well, so we're gonna fix it within our own children.
• 9:46
  Keli Keener: And so I focused on that.
• 9:47
  Keli Keener: And so that's kind of for me personally, it was just I wanted to be a mom.
• 9:51
  Keli Keener: I wanted to be a good mom.
• 9:53
  Keli Keener: I wanted my kids to know they were love and there was stability.
• 9:55
  Keli Keener: And so I really worked toward that.
• 9:58
  Keli Keener: And then I think with with our marriage, I think communication was a problem because I grew up watching soap operas.
• 10:05
  Keli Keener: I mean, shout out to General Hospital and one life to live, right?
• 10:09
  Keli Keener: You used to watch a long, long.
• 10:10
  Keli Keener: With my grandma, it was like a thing with my grandma, right?
• 10:14
  Keli Keener: Being raised.
• 10:15
  Keli Keener: And but I realized through counseling that I learned to fight watching soap operas.
• 10:21
  Keli Keener: And so if we didn't fight good and didn't have a great makeup section of of talking and I'm so sorry and all that, it wasn't done right.
• 10:30
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 10:30
  Keli Keener: And so then I kind of felt empty that like, well, that wasn't what I thought it was gonna be.
• 10:34
  Keli Keener: Because I would even like escalate it sometimes and go, well, that's that didn't go the way I thought it was gonna go.
• 10:39
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 10:39
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 10:40
  Daniel Moore: It's time to reevaluate yourself when you're basing your marriage off of a soap opera, right?
• 10:44
  Keli Keener: Well, that's all I knew, really.
• 10:45
  Keli Keener: That Falcon crest.
• 10:47
  Keli Keener: Hey.
• 10:48
  Daniel Moore: Well, what's funny is when I was a kid growing up, you know, my I had some ants that my my one aunt owned a ceramic shop.
• 10:54
  Daniel Moore: And then my other aunt, one of my other ones, which was her sister, worked in there with her for quite a while and they did ceramics and stuff, but they literally had that TV on all the time, and they could every soap opera that came on, they knew they kept up with the whole story on every one of them.
• 11:10
  Daniel Moore: Oh, yeah.
• 11:11
  Daniel Moore: And I I remember that vividly.
• 11:12
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 11:13
  Daniel Moore: Um, of course, we were in a very legalistic church, you know, and that was my dad did not want us in there watching them soap operas.
• 11:19
  Daniel Moore: So we'd go visit, we had to kind of steer away from in there whenever uh they were watching their soap operas.
• 11:25
  Daniel Moore: But that's funny.
• 11:26
  Daniel Moore: I remember that.
• 11:28
  Keli Keener: I didn't come from a Christian home.
• 11:30
  Keli Keener: My dad was raised Pentecostal and had some of that flair when I was younger, and my mom went to a church of Christ um when we were younger, and and so I had that like Church of Christ in that Pentecostal, which totally, you know, kind of set me like I didn't I think that's why I settled kind of Baptist when I first started learning and started getting into the word and really following Christ.
• 11:52
  Keli Keener: But I think that for me that's probably um a big huge piece of like um our childhood's not having that, you know, that religious peace, and I think, or spiritual peace, or knowing who Jesus was.
• 12:03
  Keli Keener: Like I did have a praying grandma, but I don't remember her really taking it out of the bathroom.
• 12:08
  Keli Keener: Like she'd go, that was her prayer closet, and she'd go in there and she'd pray and she'd pray in tongues, and my sister and I would giggle.
• 12:15
  Keli Keener: And I remember one time her and I and our cousin would just sit and giggle and you know, and not knowing what she was doing, because she never told us what she was doing, you know.
• 12:22
  Keli Keener: We just thought it was really funny.
• 12:24
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, the Church of Christ, the Pentecostal, that's quite a gap.
• 12:27
  Keli Keener: It's quite a gap.
• 12:28
  Daniel Moore: One extreme to the other.
• 12:28
  Daniel Moore: It really was for sure.
• 12:30
  Daniel Moore: Uh so Marcus, I know uh from a previous uh interview that I've heard you do, that I know you dealt with a lot of you know anger type issues and that kinds of th things when you were growing up.
• 12:42
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 12:42
  Daniel Moore: And uh could you share a little bit about that time in your life and what you were kind of going through at that time?
• 12:50
  Marcus Keener: Well, I was the youngest of three boys.
• 12:52
  Marcus Keener: Um and I was the one that was always stayed home.
• 12:56
  Marcus Keener: And so the other two just to me it just seemed like they went and did whatever they wanted when got no no punishment, no repercussions for it or whatever.
• 13:04
  Keli Keener: But I'm not sure that his brother would say he got no consequences.
• 13:10
  Marcus Keener: Looking back, I'm sure he did.
• 13:12
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, but but you know, when you're going through it, it just seems like you're the only one that ever gets punished for everything.
• 13:18
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 13:19
  Marcus Keener: And that's that's what I felt like, is just everything was just my fault.
• 13:24
  Marcus Keener: And so it later I learned it was you know, anxiety and depression through that.
• 13:34
  Marcus Keener: And and it didn't I didn't go crawl under a blanket or anything, but mine came out as as anger and even rage.
• 13:43
  Marcus Keener: You know, and I would get blackout rage even and just not even know where I was at that I was destroying everything around me.
• 13:55
  Michelle Moore: Now were you guys married at that time?
• 13:58
  Marcus Keener: Some of it, yes.
• 13:59
  Marcus Keener: And some of it as a child, you know, and it it's been a long time since I've you know um carried that.
• 14:08
  Daniel Moore: You know, so did that affect your friendships and the people that were around you and like just your uh the life that you were trying to live at that time?
• 14:17
  Daniel Moore: How did that affect all of that?
• 14:20
  Marcus Keener: Well, probably the guy I would call my best friend the first day I met him, you know, we we we hooked it up and we fought until we couldn't move no more.
• 14:27
  Marcus Keener: And we and we just kind of laid there and laughed at each other and then hung out ever since after that, you know, and and um but yeah.
• 14:36
  Marcus Keener: And that was the only guy I really ever wanted to hang around with or would even put up with my craziness and shenanigans, you know.
• 14:44
  Marcus Keener: Because, you know, he was all for it too.
• 14:46
  Marcus Keener: It was like sounds good to me, let's go.
• 14:49
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 14:49
  Daniel Moore: Well, was there a pick per a particular moment when you realized that something needed to change, or was it more of a gradual realization over time?
• 14:57
  Daniel Moore: Did you just have an aha moment or was this something that it just took you a while?
• 15:03
  Marcus Keener: It was in our marriage.
• 15:04
  Marcus Keener: We was um Keli really tried to let me be the disciplinarian and uh I didn't handle it really well.
• 15:14
  Marcus Keener: And uh I was uh having a rage incident probably with one of our children and and uh at that moment that's when Keli first stepped in.
• 15:29
  Marcus Keener: And you know, and I was a Christian then.
• 15:32
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, still dealing with that.
• 15:34
  Keli Keener: It wasn't the first time I stepped in, but it was the time I set a boundary and said, But this is not happening again.
• 15:40
  Marcus Keener: This is the last time I'm not I can't be married to that guy.
• 15:43
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 15:44
  Marcus Keener: And uh and that's when, you know, it probably wasn't that night, but probably the next day, uh, when I deescalated quite a bit.
• 15:54
  Marcus Keener: It was okay, well, well let's talk about this, and you know, and then I had I had searched for a Christian counselor.
• 16:03
  Keli Keener: Um I knew I needed a male, and I knew that I needed someone that wouldn't um because Mark was a bully and I needed someone that wasn't going to get bullied by him or intimidated.
• 16:12
  Keli Keener: I needed someone a male that would stand up to him.
• 16:15
  Keli Keener: And so I was just really praying and talking to people and um called a friend of mine and she shared that her, I think he was an associate pastor at the time, and she said he's a really good guy, and he's and so I called him and went and saw him myself, and he was when I went in, I was just like, I know I can't divorce him because we're Christians and we love the Lord, and he went, wait, wait, wait, wait.
• 16:37
  Keli Keener: He said, Nobody has to put up with abuse.
• 16:39
  Keli Keener: And so he said, um you can separate for a time.
• 16:44
  Keli Keener: And I to me that was like the heavens opened up and Jesus saw me finally when someone said you can leave.
• 16:52
  Keli Keener: And so anybody I don't want to encourage anybody to stay in an abusive situation ever.
• 16:58
  Keli Keener: Um, but this is where I was at at the time.
• 17:00
  Keli Keener: And um and so he said, No, he said, You tell your give your husband my number, have him call me, don't you call me, because I won't I won't schedule with you.
• 17:10
  Keli Keener: Um he said, have him call me.
• 17:12
  Keli Keener: And so I said, okay.
• 17:13
  Keli Keener: And I um Mark called the next day and got an appointment with him and really owe him so much.
• 17:20
  Marcus Keener: Yes, he he changed the whole trajectory of our marriage, you know.
• 17:24
  Marcus Keener: Like I said, I was already a Christian, I'd already accepted Christ, but I was still working out what that looked like, you know, and how to walk in that and and accept my responsibility in that part of it.
• 17:37
  Keli Keener: Well, and I think with Marcus, um share a little bit of his testimony is that he was delivered from a lot of things the day he got saved.
• 17:44
  Keli Keener: Right.
• 17:44
  Keli Keener: Oh wow.
• 17:44
  Keli Keener: Um he was delivered from smoking and uh and other things.
• 17:48
  Keli Keener: And so that came really quickly.
• 17:51
  Keli Keener: And so me seeing where that had changed and him still having anger, I I just couldn't reconcile.
• 17:57
  Keli Keener: Like, how can the Lord set him free from this but not this?
• 18:00
  Keli Keener: Right.
• 18:01
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 18:01
  Keli Keener: And so that was a season I think we were walking through at that point was I was just like, it I know he was saved.
• 18:08
  Keli Keener: I mean, I was there, I know.
• 18:10
  Keli Keener: Yeah, but that anger um was and it would just kind of unnecessarily reaction to things.
• 18:17
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 18:18
  Daniel Moore: And I do want to reiterate what something that you made a point there.
• 18:21
  Daniel Moore: We've talked a few times on our podcast about what's called a healing separation.
• 18:25
  Daniel Moore: And that we do highly recommend that because uh with marriage 911 that my my wife and I um do that we've talked about several times, that is something sometimes that comes up when we're dealing with these couples is you know, there are times when you just you can't be together, you know.
• 18:43
  Daniel Moore: And sometimes when you get you you can get apart from each other and have a time of separation there to act and bring God into the middle of what's going on.
• 18:52
  Daniel Moore: Yes.
• 18:52
  Daniel Moore: That's the most important thing.
• 18:54
  Keli Keener: Yeah, it's not to date other people, right?
• 18:56
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 18:57
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, it's not a break from your life, basically.
• 19:00
  Daniel Moore: It's you're trying to fix something.
• 19:01
  Daniel Moore: So you take this time when you do separate, you take that time and you continue to work on it as hard as you can, bringing God to the middle of that.
• 19:09
  Daniel Moore: Yes.
• 19:09
  Daniel Moore: Hoping that you can get back into a state where you can come back together and try to reconcile this situation.
• 19:14
  Daniel Moore: Uh, but as long as you stay in those situations and you continue to let that abuse happen between each other, it's very, very difficult to try to fix any of that.
• 19:23
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 19:23
  Daniel Moore: Because it's it's a cycle, it's a reactive cycle thing that keeps happening.
• 19:26
  Daniel Moore: Yes.
• 19:27
  Daniel Moore: And so I'm glad that you that you brought that up.
• 19:29
  Daniel Moore: Now I know that I think if if remembering the story correctly, I think you actually gave your life to Christ first.
• 19:36
  Daniel Moore: Yes, I did.
• 19:37
  Keli Keener: A couple years before.
• 19:39
  Daniel Moore: Okay.
• 19:39
  Daniel Moore: Um, so when you became a Christian and he still hadn't changed to that part yet and wanted nothing to do with Christianity yet, what was that season like for you as his spouse?
• 19:52
  Keli Keener: Well, I was spending a lot of time at at the church um because there was um several women that was in the same phase of life I was in as far as having children, raising children, stay-at-a-home mom, things like that.
• 20:04
  Keli Keener: And so there's several of us that met weekly for Bible study, and then we would do things throughout the week sometimes.
• 20:09
  Keli Keener: And so we just there were several of us that didn't have um Christian husbands, and we would pray for them.
• 20:15
  Keli Keener: And there was at times we would fast, there was times we would we would pray, there was times we would focus on one spouse or the other, you know, so certain spouse spouse or whoever.
• 20:24
  Keli Keener: But we would just really, I mean, that was really our heart, our Bible studies all kind of was around family and marriage and life and things like that.
• 20:33
  Keli Keener: So we would do those kind of things, and and so that community really came around me.
• 20:38
  Keli Keener: Um because soon after I started going to church, um, I found I was pregnant with our third child.
• 20:44
  Keli Keener: And they just really came and wrapped me up like during that season.
• 20:48
  Keli Keener: It was just probably one of the sweetest times.
• 20:50
  Keli Keener: And so those women there, I hate to say those women, but the women there were so amazing.
• 20:55
  Keli Keener: And just the church body, I mean, I um have a book that um we did the remember when the purpose-driven life?
• 21:02
  Keli Keener: Yes.
• 21:03
  Keli Keener: We did that, and at the end of it, we like all wrote things in each other's books and stuff, and there's a couple of men in the church that had wrote some things, and looking back on that to see what God has done in our lives, it's just been a blessing.
• 21:15
  Keli Keener: But I really think those women in that church family, um, other couples that were further along than us, and newer couples and things, I think that community that that I had really helped me grow in Christ and really the Lord has given me a a soft heart toward Mark.
• 21:32
  Keli Keener: No, I mean, since we've been together, I've always had a like a there's just a soft place for him in my heart that I knew he was supposed to be my husband and father of my kids and um and so I knew we could get through things and I had seen the Lord work.
• 21:46
  Keli Keener: So I knew that I had would have to sometimes sit back and let the Lord work.
• 21:50
  Keli Keener: Like I would just have to plant the seed and water it.
• 21:52
  Keli Keener: I say that when I want to make big purchases, I just gotta plant it and water it, right?
• 21:56
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 21:56
  Keli Keener: And so but the same thing then spiritually.
• 21:58
  Keli Keener: Spiritually.
• 21:59
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 22:00
  Keli Keener: Spiritually, you know, that's what I did is just, you know, I would we ha our kids were young at the time, and I think our oldest was probably four or f five-ish.
• 22:10
  Keli Keener: And I remember him, I would, you know, we'd pray for dinner and he would pray for his daddy to be saved.
• 22:16
  Keli Keener: You know what I mean?
• 22:17
  Keli Keener: And and I would just let him pray in front of him, you know, like we just prayed in front of him and we just carried on our lives.
• 22:23
  Keli Keener: If Mark wanted to join, we asked him.
• 22:26
  Keli Keener: Um, and if he didn't want to join, I didn't make a big deal out of it.
• 22:29
  Keli Keener: I just went on and did what I thought I was supposed to do.
• 22:32
  Keli Keener: And that's one thing.
• 22:33
  Keli Keener: Mark never stood in my way of taking the kids to church or going to church or anything like that.
• 22:38
  Keli Keener: I mean, he would tell me I was stupid or that was stupid or something, but he never kept me from going.
• 22:44
  Keli Keener: But I really think that support system that I had there, and it was really funny, you know, because I didn't really want to go to that church.
• 22:49
  Keli Keener: It's so funny, God puts me in churches I didn't really want to go to in the first place.
• 22:53
  Keli Keener: And then he plants me there.
• 22:55
  Keli Keener: And so um, and so this was one of those churches that I was like, yeah, I'm not sure about, and then God plants us there and really gave us a really sweet, probably good 10 years at least of raising our kids and maybe more.
• 23:06
  Keli Keener: I I don't even know how many, lots of years.
• 23:08
  Daniel Moore: Lots of years, yeah.
• 23:09
  Keli Keener: Lots of years.
• 23:10
  Keli Keener: And so I think community is is so important to couples.
• 23:13
  Keli Keener: And and not just having people ki couples your age and going through the same thing.
• 23:18
  Keli Keener: I think that sometimes is not wise.
• 23:21
  Keli Keener: We need to have older couples that are breathing life into us.
• 23:25
  Keli Keener: Um and then we also need people younger than us that we can say, hey, we do have some wisdom.
• 23:30
  Keli Keener: We do have some, you know, some some things that we could tell you that we've gone through and what not to do.
• 23:36
  Keli Keener: I mean, we have a lot of what not to do's.
• 23:38
  Keli Keener: Um don't we all?
• 23:39
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 23:40
  Keli Keener: Right?
• 23:41
  Keli Keener: I need to make the list.
• 23:41
  Keli Keener: That's the book, right?
• 23:42
  Keli Keener: That's the book.
• 23:43
  Keli Keener: And so um, I think community I would say was the most effective and really learning who Jesus was.
• 23:48
  Keli Keener: I remember we went through the names of Jesus once, and um, and so I just remember that time um of just really learning who Jesus is and his personalities through his names and things like that.
• 23:58
  Keli Keener: And so for me that was all really good.
• 24:01
  Keli Keener: The Bible, we did discipleship training too, and that was a huge piece.
• 24:05
  Keli Keener: Our church was just really good at discipleship back then.
• 24:09
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 24:09
  Daniel Moore: So during this time when all this is taking place, do you feel do you look back and think now and remember maybe did you feel some of these prayers and um feel kind of what she was trying to you know, bombarding heaven and all that?
• 24:25
  Daniel Moore: Did you feel anything at that time?
• 24:28
  Marcus Keener: Honestly, I was so selfish with myself that it nothing I didn't consider anything other than me.
• 24:34
  Marcus Keener: You know, and and uh what I could get out of it, you know.
• 24:39
  Marcus Keener: And it's just that's just the way it was.
• 24:42
  Marcus Keener: I mean Yeah, I didn't make it I didn't stop her from going, but I I'm sure I did make it easy for her to go at times she did.
• 24:49
  Marcus Keener: And so, you know, and I remember at times she even woke up and said, The kids are still asleep, can I leave them?
• 24:56
  Marcus Keener: No.
• 24:57
  Marcus Keener: Because, you know, God's good enough for you, it's good enough for them kids, you need to take 'em with you.
• 25:02
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 25:02
  Marcus Keener: And you know, but I just wanted the time to myself, really.
• 25:06
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 25:07
  Marcus Keener: That was just honest, you know.
• 25:08
  Marcus Keener: And so and so I mean, and then she would be so mad at me, you know, when she got home because, you know, everything was okay, like with tired kids, you know, and and uh and then and say, Oh yeah, yeah.
• 25:21
  Marcus Keener: Um church did you a lot of good today, didn't it?
• 25:24
  Marcus Keener: You know, you know, but I I was looking at the person.
• 25:30
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, not not not the God behind the person.
• 25:34
  Marcus Keener: Right.
• 25:34
  Keli Keener: So Yeah, and I think that, you know, for us starting off, you know, two young people.
• 25:39
  Keli Keener: I was twenty, he was twenty-two when we got married.
• 25:41
  Keli Keener: And um we both come from s some tra trauma in our background and and parental, you know, dad issues, you know.
• 25:49
  Keli Keener: Um and so I think both of, you know, we tend to choose people with the same level of hurts we have.
• 25:55
  Keli Keener: And I think that's what we did.
• 25:56
  Keli Keener: We had the same level of hurts.
• 25:58
  Keli Keener: I handled, we just handled it differently.
• 26:00
  Keli Keener: I was gonna I was gonna control it and make it like I was gonna make everybody happy, I was gonna make sure my kids were raised right, and Mark was just gonna like control everything by anger.
• 26:08
  Keli Keener: And I was gonna make everybody happy.
• 26:10
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 26:11
  Daniel Moore: Definitely a rust dynamic, for sure.
• 26:14
  Daniel Moore: So go ahead and walk us through now then, because we know you did come to Christ and you have an awesome relationship with God at this point.
• 26:23
  Daniel Moore: So, how did that come about?
• 26:25
  Daniel Moore: I know there's a little story with all of that, and I'd like for you to to share uh how you came to to know the Lord and what that changed what that thing was that changed everything.
• 26:35
  Marcus Keener: Well, like Keli said, she always invited me to things and uh um I enjoyed the volleyball, and of course, you know, it was a good Baptist church, so I enjoyed the food and the and the cakes and the pies and stuff.
• 26:46
  Marcus Keener: That's all the things that I think.
• 26:47
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, she always she always made the best pumpkin rolls, you know, and so and I always had to go eat them, but uh but that's how it really started, was was getting acquainted with that fellowship group that that she was talking about, and um you know, and then opening the door, you know, and and uh Pastor Carol Holden.
• 27:12
  Keli Keener: Great man of God.
• 27:13
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 27:14
  Keli Keener: So when Mark got saved, I'm I shared this on another podcast, but when Mark got saved, he he got really mean right before, you know, that that conviction, and um he just kind of got you know, look back now, I can really laugh about it, but at the time I could not.
• 27:27
  Keli Keener: Um and he was just really not nice.
• 27:30
  Keli Keener: And um he had went, he um had promised our pastor he would go to church.
• 27:35
  Keli Keener: Um one Wednesday night, our pastor came up to us and said, Keli, um, I'm gonna go share Christ with your husband.
• 27:41
  Keli Keener: He's either gonna get saved or with me tonight.
• 27:42
  Keli Keener: So, um, because he has ran put Pastor Carol off probably from her house a couple times.
• 27:47
  Keli Keener: Because he was a great evangelist.
• 27:49
  Keli Keener: He was door to door, he was gonna, you know, he he was not shy.
• 27:52
  Keli Keener: And so I said, Okay, well, you while you go to my house, I'm gonna go to my friend's house and just call me when you're done.
• 27:57
  Keli Keener: Because this is before cell phones.
• 27:59
  Keli Keener: And so he went and witnessed to Mark.
• 28:01
  Keli Keener: So later that night he calls and said, Well, Marcus didn't get saved and I didn't get whooped.
• 28:06
  Keli Keener: And he said, So um I um but he did make me a deal.
• 28:11
  Keli Keener: He said, I um told him if he comes to church for a month and he doesn't feel the Holy Spirit, I'll never witness to him again.
• 28:17
  Keli Keener: He said, Mark took the deal.
• 28:19
  Keli Keener: So that first Sunday, Mark was supposed to be in church, and we went that morning, and of course the morning was a rough morning.
• 28:25
  Daniel Moore: Without a doubt.
• 28:26
  Keli Keener: It was a rough morning.
• 28:27
  Keli Keener: And then so we come home after church.
• 28:29
  Keli Keener: Oh, but uh but but they needed volunteers to come get ready for the revival that was starting that evening.
• 28:33
  Keli Keener: So I volunteered us because I you know I had to get him in the doors, right?
• 28:36
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 28:37
  Keli Keener: And so we did that.
• 28:39
  Keli Keener: And so, anyways, on the way to church, Mark's like, I'm sick, I don't feel good.
• 28:43
  Keli Keener: He's all day he's whining, he doesn't feel good, and I don't do well, sick people, just so we all know I love my husband and I have nurturing ways, but with sick, nurturing husband, I'm not nurturing.
• 28:53
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, um, if you know us now, you'll see a pattern starting to happen.
• 28:57
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, this is the beginning of that pattern.
• 28:59
  Keli Keener: This is the beginning of that pattern.
• 29:01
  Keli Keener: And so I um I was just like, You're trying to ruin my plans, and you're not ruining my plans.
• 29:05
  Keli Keener: I'm going to church.
• 29:06
  Keli Keener: And he's like, Well, drop me off at the ER.
• 29:07
  Keli Keener: And I'm like, Okay, call me when you're done.
• 29:09
  Keli Keener: I'll be at church.
• 29:10
  Keli Keener: And so I just dropped him off and went.
• 29:11
  Keli Keener: And so we went to church, was doing our stuff to get things ready.
• 29:15
  Keli Keener: And my friend um said, Keli, you need to get up there with your husband.
• 29:19
  Keli Keener: I'm like, No, no, he's fine.
• 29:21
  Keli Keener: He's fine.
• 29:21
  Keli Keener: She's like, No, you need to get up there.
• 29:23
  Keli Keener: And I was like, Okay, fine.
• 29:24
  Keli Keener: She's like, I'll take your kids home, whatever.
• 29:26
  Keli Keener: I'll take care of them.
• 29:27
  Keli Keener: I said, Okay.
• 29:28
  Keli Keener: So I go to the hospital, and as I'm walking into the ER, the uh our pastor and two deacons were walking out, and he had his head down, just kind of shaking it, and he looks up and he sees me and goes, Man, that's one of the hardest-hearted men I've ever met.
• 29:43
  Keli Keener: He said, I don't think he'll ever accept Jesus.
• 29:46
  Keli Keener: And I was just like, You really?
• 29:49
  Keli Keener: So I go in.
• 29:51
  Marcus Keener: Coming from a man that's seen, thousands probably led to Christ.
• 29:55
  Keli Keener: Right.
• 29:55
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 29:55
  Keli Keener: Wow.
• 29:56
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 29:57
  Keli Keener: And so um I was just like, wow, wow.
• 30:00
  Keli Keener: And so I walk in the room, and when I walk in the room, Mark tears just falling down his face.
• 30:07
  Keli Keener: I mean, his hospital gown may have even been wet with tears.
• 30:10
  Keli Keener: Like he just was crying.
• 30:12
  Keli Keener: And I'm like, what's wrong with you?
• 30:14
  Keli Keener: And he's like, I'm ready.
• 30:16
  Keli Keener: And I'm like, ready for what?
• 30:18
  Keli Keener: Like, ready to die, ready to get out of here?
• 30:20
  Keli Keener: What are you ready for?
• 30:20
  Keli Keener: He goes, I'm ready to accept Christ.
• 30:23
  Keli Keener: And I was like, I'd been a Christian for a couple of years.
• 30:26
  Keli Keener: And so I knew Roman's Road, right?
• 30:28
  Keli Keener: Every good Baptist knows Roman's Road.
• 30:30
  Keli Keener: And so I was just like looking for a Bible, and I'm like, oh wait, it's already happened.
• 30:34
  Keli Keener: All I need to do is just celebrate with him, you know.
• 30:36
  Keli Keener: The Lord's already worked.
• 30:37
  Keli Keener: And so we kind of went through some things and just talked and prayed together and thanked the Lord.
• 30:43
  Keli Keener: And um, and then the next day he was, you know, they said he was having a heart attack.
• 30:46
  Keli Keener: He was transferred to Tulsa and nothing was wrong with him.
• 30:50
  Keli Keener: It was just the Lord knocking on that door.
• 30:53
  Marcus Keener: There was a heart attack.
• 30:54
  Marcus Keener: But he fixed that.
• 30:56
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 30:57
  Keli Keener: By the time he got to Tulsa, it wasn't happening.
• 30:59
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 30:59
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 31:00
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 31:00
  Marcus Keener: Wow.
• 31:00
  Marcus Keener: It'd already been taken care of.
• 31:02
  Keli Keener: So and so again, that body of Christ that uh we were a part of, you know, when Mark comes back, but they're there for us, right?
• 31:10
  Keli Keener: They're celebrating with us.
• 31:12
  Keli Keener: Um I mean, it ch it was just a huge, like everybody, I mean, we it was like that's what we prayed for, you know.
• 31:19
  Marcus Keener: And um I think that probably a good two or three, four years, probably.
• 31:24
  Keli Keener: Yeah, we celebrated it for a long time because, you know, m I feel like out of all the husbands that we were praying for at the time, Mark was radically changed quickly.
• 31:33
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 31:33
  Keli Keener: Um and set free from so much quickly.
• 31:36
  Keli Keener: And so that the anger though was, you know, that thing that just lingered.
• 31:41
  Keli Keener: And I couldn't understand it because I was like, you're such a good man.
• 31:44
  Keli Keener: You love the Lord, and I know you love us.
• 31:46
  Keli Keener: But just when that anger sparked out, and you know, most of the time Mark, you know, he was like loud, he's a big guy, and he would like bully you a little bit, like we'll stand in your way, you know, things like that.
• 31:57
  Keli Keener: And um, and I would just be like, You're a bully, and and of course, you know, that's the wrong time when they're angry to to make any kind of accusations.
• 32:05
  Keli Keener: And so, you know, we just kind of learned, like, okay, dad's in a bad mood, we're gonna go for a while.
• 32:10
  Keli Keener: You know, there's just things that we did differently, I think.
• 32:12
  Keli Keener: But I really feel like that anger of Mark working it out, going to that counselor, I think really helped.
• 32:18
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 32:19
  Keli Keener: Praying about it, really seeking the Lord and deepening his relationship with godly people and godly community.
• 32:26
  Keli Keener: Wow.
• 32:27
  Daniel Moore: That's awesome.
• 32:27
  Daniel Moore: And it it's uh it's funny to me sometimes because you know, God uses such extreme measures sometimes to get people where he wants them.
• 32:34
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 32:34
  Daniel Moore: Just, you know, speaking of that heart attack, you just never think that God would ever use something like that on somebody, you know.
• 32:40
  Daniel Moore: But but we have to at those moments when we go through those things and we see the after what comes next, you know.
• 32:47
  Daniel Moore: Uh sometimes we have to look back and you just see God written all over.
• 32:50
  Daniel Moore: Oh yeah.
• 32:51
  Daniel Moore: There's just no way that that would have came together any other way.
• 32:55
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, you know.
• 32:56
  Keli Keener: And you know, I had my mind made up.
• 32:57
  Keli Keener: If God, if I can get him to church and the preacher preach on this, and Dolores sings this song, and so and so gives us testimony that he would have to get saved, you know.
• 33:07
  Keli Keener: And um, and it just didn't happen that way.
• 33:11
  Keli Keener: You know, I was controlling that even, you know, that how he was gonna get saved, right?
• 33:15
  Keli Keener: And the Lord just said no, but it was really when I gave up my will.
• 33:19
  Keli Keener: There was um right before this, um Mark had gotten angry at me about something.
• 33:24
  Keli Keener: I was telling him about heaven, I think, and he was native and he said he was gonna ride the wind, and I kind of laughed at him and said, Well, what wind are you gonna ride on?
• 33:32
  Keli Keener: Because the earth's not gonna be here like it is.
• 33:35
  Keli Keener: Anyways, and and and this he got mad and he threw a like a V that was a VHS daytime, yeah.
• 33:40
  Keli Keener: Days and times of that.
• 33:41
  Keli Keener: And he threw it at me and it shattered, and it went right by my head, and I just remember looking at him and and saying, Marcus, you can go to hell and I don't care.
• 33:49
  Keli Keener: I don't even care anymore.
• 33:51
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 33:51
  Keli Keener: If you do, I'm not fighting this anymore.
• 33:53
  Keli Keener: And that's when I kind of just gave up my will.
• 33:56
  Keli Keener: And and then the Lord was really able to move.
• 34:05
  Marcus Keener: And that was Wednesday and then Sunday, like I said, I couldn't make it to the second service.
• 34:10
  Marcus Keener: Let alone a month of them.
• 34:12
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 34:12
  Daniel Moore: Wow.
• 34:13
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, it's amazing how it it seems like in your darkest hour, God he'll just step in.
• 34:19
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, he does.
• 34:20
  Daniel Moore: And it changes everything.
• 34:22
  Michelle Moore: And I'm sure it was it was awesome though that you got to watch from the person that he was before.
• 34:28
  Michelle Moore: And then you're the one in the hospital with him.
• 34:34
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 34:34
  Keli Keener: When he says, I'm ready.
• 34:36
  Keli Keener: I'm ready, yes.
• 34:36
  Keli Keener: And I think the Lord did that.
• 34:38
  Keli Keener: Yeah, of course he had a plan, right?
• 34:39
  Keli Keener: But I needed to see that.
• 34:41
  Keli Keener: The Lord knew I needed it.
• 34:42
  Keli Keener: Like I needed to see that softer, because I knew Mark had a softer side.
• 34:46
  Keli Keener: Like there, you know, there's things that you know about your spouse that no one else knows, and you see in them that's just for you, that the Lord gave for you.
• 34:52
  Keli Keener: And I've always seen that softer side of Mark that other people would not would tell you it didn't exist.
• 34:57
  Keli Keener: I've always seen that in Mark.
• 34:59
  Keli Keener: And so seeing that, like with through tears, I was just like, oh my gosh, you know, like that physical change, but also like his countenance, like there really is a Shekinah glory that can go when you've been before the Lord.
• 35:12
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 35:12
  Keli Keener: And he had this brightness and he had this um, his affect was different.
• 35:17
  Daniel Moore: I mean, even his stance, he walked taller, um, was different, and I so I know as as you've described this here, and it was an immediate change for the most part in a lot of areas in your life, uh, but some of those took longer.
• 35:47
  Daniel Moore: You know, some of the issues just didn't go away right away.
• 35:50
  Daniel Moore: Um, so what did you learn about the difference between being saved and actually learning how to live differently?
• 35:57
  Keli Keener: That's a good question.
• 35:58
  Marcus Keener: That's a great question, you know.
• 36:00
  Marcus Keener: But salvation is uh the peace behind it.
• 36:06
  Marcus Keener: You know.
• 36:07
  Marcus Keener: And it doesn't make everything disappear.
• 36:11
  Marcus Keener: You know, some things we have to walk through things for our testimony and so we can help others.
• 36:17
  Marcus Keener: And and I think when God reveals things to us, we do need to share that with others and that's why we're here.
• 36:24
  Marcus Keener: But um but I think just knowing that you know the the backstop is there.
• 36:31
  Marcus Keener: You know, you can only go back so far, and then his hand is there is is enough to just catch it all.
• 36:39
  Marcus Keener: You know, and and it it just makes it it does, it takes a lot of the edge off of it.
• 36:44
  Marcus Keener: But you know, but you still have to learn how to live in this world uh as bad as sometimes you know it gets.
• 36:52
  Marcus Keener: You still have to figure out how to walk on this earth as long as he lets us.
• 36:56
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 36:57
  Marcus Keener: Because there's always one more that we need to talk to, one more we need to visit, one more.
• 37:01
  Marcus Keener: Uh we need to say a word to.
• 37:04
  Daniel Moore: And I hope that speaks to the person that might be listening that feels like solve, you know, coming to Christ and asking him into your life just solves everything.
• 37:12
  Daniel Moore: Because we know that it's still a battle.
• 37:16
  Daniel Moore: Actually, Satan's probably gonna come at you harder because he just lost the battle.
• 37:20
  Daniel Moore: So he's gonna be coming back after you even harder to try to win you back.
• 37:24
  Daniel Moore: And there are sometimes situations just like you.
• 37:28
  Daniel Moore: I know other people that's kind of been in the same situation where they've had certain things just kind of shut off pretty quickly, but then they struggled, you know, some of them struggled for years trying to get past some kind of a hang-up that they've always had.
• 37:40
  Daniel Moore: And that can get very discouraging, you know, and you're trying to walk the walk and you're trying to live for Christ, you're trying to do the things that are right, but every once in a while we stumble.
• 37:49
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 37:50
  Daniel Moore: You know, that four steps forward and take another, you know, couple back, that thing that happens occasionally or whatever, and some people don't handle that very well.
• 37:58
  Daniel Moore: And it is easy sometimes, I think, to get in that mode where it's like, when is when am I ever gonna quit doing this stuff?
• 38:04
  Daniel Moore: When's this ever gonna stop?
• 38:05
  Daniel Moore: You know?
• 38:06
  Daniel Moore: Um, but I love what you said, what you're saying there is the fact that you know, we do have to live in this world.
• 38:11
  Daniel Moore: This world is full of sin.
• 38:13
  Daniel Moore: We're sinful in nature.
• 38:14
  Daniel Moore: That's how we were born into this place, and that's what being an overcomer is all about.
• 38:19
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 38:19
  Daniel Moore: You know, as we live that life with Christ and overcome those things, and I think you're a walking testimony, obviously, of that.
• 38:26
  Daniel Moore: Both of you are with the re the testimony that you guys have.
• 38:30
  Michelle Moore: Yeah.
• 38:30
  Michelle Moore: Um, so Keli, what was it like watching Marcus change?
• 38:35
  Michelle Moore: And was it difficult at first to trust him uh in the changes that you were seeing?
• 38:41
  Keli Keener: Did you think they were gonna last?
• 38:42
  Keli Keener: It took a long time to trust him, to be honest.
• 38:45
  Keli Keener: Um, because you know the anger still would spur up once in a while.
• 38:48
  Keli Keener: And um so it took a while, I think, for me, um, watching him.
• 38:52
  Keli Keener: But then, you know, you you see other things that's changing too.
• 38:55
  Keli Keener: So then it's like, oh, this is real.
• 38:58
  Keli Keener: Like, you know, that the conversations and his prayer life and things that you know that spiritually God's working and moving, that there's evidence there, right?
• 39:06
  Keli Keener: And so I was like desperately looking for evidence at times, like, okay, God, you've got to show me or you've got to soften my heart.
• 39:12
  Keli Keener: Lord, give me a fresh new love for him.
• 39:14
  Keli Keener: Like, you know, praying those things.
• 39:16
  Keli Keener: But I think at first I was just like real kind of like, well, I know God can do it, but I just don't understand how and when because he was delivered from the other things and not this.
• 39:27
  Keli Keener: And then, you know, I read about you know Paul's thorn in his side, right?
• 39:30
  Keli Keener: So I'm like, uh, is this gonna be his thorn forever, you know?
• 39:33
  Keli Keener: And can I deal with that, you know?
• 39:36
  Keli Keener: And so I think for us and for me, I just again, the Lord showed me things in him that, you know, that was softer, that, you know, when he didn't explode with the kids on something or he didn't react in a way, you know.
• 39:51
  Keli Keener: Um, but you know, I think and then so it during this time too, I started college.
• 39:56
  Keli Keener: And so that's when I started going to school and learning more about trauma and trauma responses and you know, things like that.
• 40:03
  Keli Keener: And so kind of putting that influence in there, knowing that Mark's responses are trauma responses a lot.
• 40:10
  Keli Keener: Um and so working, I think, in that mindset, thinking, okay, I know this is a trauma response.
• 40:17
  Keli Keener: This isn't really who he is, this is something he's struggling.
• 40:20
  Keli Keener: And so, um, and I I remember even going through the five love languages with our son once, our oldest son, one time when he was little, talking about the love languages, because this is how dad loves and this is how you love, and just trying to like let them know that that this isn't this isn't okay.
• 40:35
  Keli Keener: You can't just blow up when you're angry.
• 40:38
  Keli Keener: Um, but again, I feel like the Lord shared shielded even our kids somewhat, even though I know that they they w saw it, witnessed it at times, but um I still think that the Lord sheltered them and gave them grace for you, even as much grace as He gave me for you, you know what I mean?
• 40:58
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 40:58
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 40:59
  Daniel Moore: So how long do you feel like it took before you feel like that you actually finally had a handle on the anger issue since it was the thing that kind of progressed further along than what the rest of it did?
• 41:09
  Keli Keener: Uh 2020?
• 41:10
  Keli Keener: 2019?
• 41:12
  Daniel Moore: Three three minutes ago, maybe that's probably a good way to answer that.
• 41:18
  Marcus Keener: I I still struggle with it, you know.
• 41:20
  Marcus Keener: I mean, it's still an issue that I have to I really have to stop, you know, and a friend of ours, she says you gotta capture your thoughts.
• 41:27
  Marcus Keener: Yeah and whenever I get that first anger thought, then I I really have to stop saying, okay, where's this going?
• 41:35
  Marcus Keener: And how far am I gonna am I gonna let it go?
• 41:39
  Marcus Keener: You know, because um God's really real to me that I have control over that and I can choose the level that it comes out if I want to just talk about it or if I want it to be a blow-up.
• 41:50
  Marcus Keener: You know, I I have a part to play in that.
• 41:53
  Marcus Keener: It's not just circumstance.
• 41:55
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 41:56
  Marcus Keener: You know, and then you know, because we do play our parts very well.
• 42:00
  Marcus Keener: And we like to play ignorant most of the time.
• 42:02
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, well things just happen.
• 42:05
  Marcus Keener: No, they don't.
• 42:05
  Marcus Keener: You know, and but we get to choose a lot of things that we get to walk in, you know, and um you know, we I took a living free class and um it was about anger, your master or your servant.
• 42:19
  Marcus Keener: And uh it was talking about shutting off the drip rather than trying to dam the river.
• 42:26
  Marcus Keener: And um I I really took a hold of that a lot, and that's and that's probably been the last five years that I went through that class.
• 42:36
  Marcus Keener: And um it's easier to s you know, but you gotta identify what the drip is.
• 42:42
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 42:43
  Marcus Keener: You know, and once you identify that, you know, and and we're big on you you have to name things because once you name it, you're you're very aware of it.
• 42:51
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, you know, and then you can deal with it a lot easier.
• 42:54
  Marcus Keener: It can't be just, well, you know That's the way I am.
• 42:57
  Marcus Keener: You you can't say, just well, I got pride issues.
• 43:00
  Marcus Keener: Okay, well, there's so many different factors of pride.
• 43:03
  Marcus Keener: Right.
• 43:03
  Marcus Keener: But let's get specific and let's name what that pride is so we can deal with it.
• 43:08
  Marcus Keener: You know, let's name what that anger response is so I can deal with it.
• 43:12
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, you know.
• 43:14
  Keli Keener: And we really learned that a lot of his anger was out of depression and anxiety.
• 43:18
  Daniel Moore: Right.
• 43:19
  Keli Keener: Um and so when he got the angriest is when he was depressed or anxious.
• 43:24
  Keli Keener: And again, it goes back to trauma response, right?
• 43:27
  Keli Keener: Like he's gonna he's gonna react to control the situation.
• 43:30
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 43:31
  Keli Keener: And so really learning to like, okay, I can't act this way.
• 43:35
  Keli Keener: I do have a choice.
• 43:36
  Keli Keener: I may have been exposed to things that I shouldn't have and experienced things I shouldn't have, but I am an adult and I take control of my own actions and I'm responsible for my own actions.
• 43:47
  Marcus Keener: Right.
• 43:47
  Marcus Keener: I mean, really a lot of it is, you know, it's you know, my mom and dad did a a fairly decent job giving us our values and our morals, you know, even though they was in two separate places, you know.
• 43:59
  Marcus Keener: But uh at some point you really gotta take this is my responsibility.
• 44:05
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 44:05
  Marcus Keener: This is my relationship with God.
• 44:07
  Marcus Keener: It's not my mom's, it's not my dad's, it's not my grandpa's, it's not my wife's, you know.
• 44:13
  Marcus Keener: And and I have to take the responsibility to walk that relationship with Christ.
• 44:19
  Marcus Keener: You know.
• 44:20
  Marcus Keener: And the more steps that I take, the easier it becomes because the closer I get to him, the easier I don't notice the other things around me.
• 44:30
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 44:30
  Marcus Keener: The anxiety and the depression triggers.
• 44:33
  Marcus Keener: I just don't notice them because I'm so focused on looking at Christ.
• 44:37
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 44:38
  Marcus Keener: You know, and it's it's uh it becomes easier.
• 44:43
  Marcus Keener: But you gotta we really train ourselves to do that though.
• 44:48
  Marcus Keener: I mean, through patterns and just you know I I I lay everything the same spot every day.
• 44:55
  Marcus Keener: I can walk around in a dark room and pick my stuff up because uh I that's just the way I am.
• 45:00
  Marcus Keener: But it's but you really have to train yourself and your spiritual life that way too.
• 45:05
  Marcus Keener: That you know if you want to reach for the book of Mark, you have to know where the book of Mark is.
• 45:11
  Marcus Keener: Right.
• 45:12
  Marcus Keener: You know, if you want to reach for Romans Road, you have to know where Romans Road is.
• 45:16
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, you can't just pull things out that you've never been exposed to.
• 45:19
  Marcus Keener: Right.
• 45:19
  Marcus Keener: Now don't get me it happens.
• 45:21
  Marcus Keener: God has the ability to do that, you know, because it has happened when I've been knocking on knocking on doors and and uh witnessing to the community.
• 45:30
  Marcus Keener: It he's given me scriptures that I've never read.
• 45:33
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 45:33
  Marcus Keener: But you know, but then I go back and say, What is that really there?
• 45:37
  Marcus Keener: You know, and because of my my brain, yeah, the way it's wired, but but we really have to have that responsibility that you know it's not my parents' fault.
• 45:48
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 45:48
  Marcus Keener: I have a choice on how I live my life now.
• 45:51
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, and I need to take steps to to follow Christ.
• 45:55
  Marcus Keener: That's it.
• 45:56
  Marcus Keener: You know, and if it's not working towards that, then maybe we need to reevaluate what we're doing.
• 46:01
  Michelle Moore: I like that.
• 46:02
  Michelle Moore: I mean, if you really think about it for anybody out there that's struggling with anger, that's really good.
• 46:07
  Michelle Moore: I mean, one, you have to own it, you know, and but you're willing to put God before self.
• 46:14
  Michelle Moore: And that's what it comes down to.
• 46:16
  Michelle Moore: Do you have any um words of wisdom for anyone that is struggling with anger?
• 46:22
  Michelle Moore: Um do you have anything that, you know, that you since you've walked that kind of what you just said to help them or anything?
• 46:30
  Marcus Keener: You really gotta take it back to what your roots are, and that's where you know the counseling helped me in that, you know, to identify that, hey, this is a trauma response.
• 46:42
  Marcus Keener: That's it, it's not anger.
• 46:45
  Marcus Keener: This is anxiety and depression that you don't know how to deal with, and it's just it drives you so crazy over here that it comes out as anger.
• 46:53
  Marcus Keener: Okay.
• 46:54
  Marcus Keener: You know, that's how that's what it was for me.
• 46:57
  Marcus Keener: You know, is I wasn't dealing with this anxiety and depression, and so it blew up as rage and anger.
• 47:05
  Marcus Keener: And and so, you know, and you know, taking it back and identifying, okay, this is an anxiety moment, you know, and there are times in our marriage now I say, I'm really having a really anxiety moment, I just need to step out.
• 47:17
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 47:18
  Michelle Moore: That communication, I like that.
• 47:20
  Marcus Keener: And it and it's okay now.
• 47:22
  Michelle Moore: Yeah.
• 47:22
  Marcus Keener: Where before it wasn't, you know.
• 47:24
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 47:24
  Marcus Keener: Or I didn't think it was, you know.
• 47:26
  Marcus Keener: And uh, but there's a lot that's opened up through that communication that, you know, like I said, you really gotta identify what the true roots of it are.
• 47:36
  Marcus Keener: And sometimes it's an outside source that tells you that because you struggle with seeing it yourself.
• 47:41
  Marcus Keener: You know, and you know, that's where we need men in our life, godly men.
• 47:45
  Marcus Keener: That's where we need counselors, that's where we need honest wives that say, hey, I really notice when you get in this situation, this is how you handle it.
• 47:54
  Marcus Keener: And I I don't I don't think that's appropriate.
• 47:57
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 47:57
  Marcus Keener: And I okay, then if it's not appropriate, then let's start looking at that and see what is appropriate and what we can do to start walking that away.
• 48:06
  Marcus Keener: You know?
• 48:07
  Michelle Moore: It's so good.
• 48:09
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, and all those things that you just were talking about there, there are so many principles in what you just said that has to do with marriage in so many different areas.
• 48:16
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, it reminds me of an analogy that we use quite often when we uh talk to our couples about the reactive cycle, the the cycles you get into when you push each other's buttons and triggers, and how that can be a continuous cycle that just not stopped.
• 48:29
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 48:30
  Daniel Moore: Sometimes it is intentional.
• 48:32
  Daniel Moore: Sometimes it is intentional.
• 48:33
  Daniel Moore: It is an analogy we like to use is uh it's like a bruise.
• 48:38
  Daniel Moore: You know, a person can get a bruise on their arm, and a spouse can buy or somebody can come by and touch that bruise, and our first reaction is ouch, you hurt me, you know.
• 48:48
  Daniel Moore: But the reality was that bruise already hurt.
• 48:51
  Daniel Moore: That person didn't hurt you, they touched the bruise which was already hurting, and it had a reaction and you felt the pain.
• 48:57
  Daniel Moore: And we use that a lot even in marriage, just because for a lot of things that happen, just like what you're describing right now, there is a root, there's something else that caused that pain, and somebody else comes along and actually just triggers that or something aggravates it, something triggers it.
• 49:14
  Daniel Moore: And I think that's such a valid lesson as as spouses in marriages that we have to remember, we always want to point the finger.
• 49:22
  Daniel Moore: You know, as soon as something comes up, we want to blame it on our spouse or blame it on the person that's closest to us.
• 49:27
  Daniel Moore: And nine 99% of the time, that's not what's going on.
• 49:32
  Daniel Moore: You know, we have to step back for a minute.
• 49:34
  Daniel Moore: The other lesson I love that I'm getting from you guys is the other one that we teach a lot.
• 49:38
  Daniel Moore: When this stuff starts happening, you need to stop.
• 49:41
  Daniel Moore: Step back out of it for a minute and cool down.
• 49:43
  Daniel Moore: Don't sit there and just stay right in the middle of that turmoil because you're just asking for a big big explosion.
• 49:50
  Keli Keener: And I like to call it the sleep on it rule.
• 49:52
  Keli Keener: Like there's some things we're not.
• 49:53
  Keli Keener: I mean, you know, people think you have to solve the problem that night and you don't.
• 49:58
  Keli Keener: You can agree to that.
• 49:59
  Keli Keener: I love you and I'm gonna go to sleep, and I'm not gonna talk about this anymore.
• 50:02
  Keli Keener: We're not gonna fight about this, but we're gonna sleep on it and come back tomorrow and see how important this is to us.
• 50:07
  Keli Keener: We're gonna have an appointed time.
• 50:08
  Keli Keener: Maybe it's Friday at five o'clock, but whatever you call the sleep on it world rule, you need to find you need to have a time that you come back to it.
• 50:15
  Keli Keener: And there's times you have to call it, you know, we're gonna talk about this Friday at five.
• 50:18
  Keli Keener: And then Friday at five, we know we're gonna have to have a conversation because sometimes it just cannot be addressed right then.
• 50:24
  Keli Keener: We're not we're you know, I'd like to say after 32 years of marriage, I'm mature enough to say we can deal with things, but sometimes we have to sleep on it.
• 50:31
  Keli Keener: Sometimes we just can't address it right now.
• 50:33
  Michelle Moore: I just like the fact that you guys communicate it.
• 50:36
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 50:36
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 50:37
  Michelle Moore: You know, and that that's very important that the fact that you're like, hey, I'm feeling this and I know this is coming up, give me some time.
• 50:45
  Michelle Moore: Yeah, you know, there's gonna be times like I say when we are mentoring, we'll see several spouses that they'll say that, but that spouse is like, I'm not taking that for an answer.
• 50:56
  Michelle Moore: You're gonna talk to me and you're gonna do this, which causes that person to blow up.
• 51:01
  Michelle Moore: Yes.
• 51:01
  Michelle Moore: And it's like if you would have just where the rage comes from, yes, and that's and it's like as a spouse, you know, you love them so much and you know it's like just let them have their time.
• 51:13
  Michelle Moore: And so I love the fact that you guys talk about it and you communicate because you've walked through the years of your marriage.
• 51:19
  Michelle Moore: Of not communicating right now.
• 51:21
  Michelle Moore: Yes, yes.
• 51:21
  Keli Keener: And so now that you guys can do that, it's just so important.
• 51:25
  Keli Keener: And that's one thing we've said is we never quit talking.
• 51:28
  Keli Keener: That was something in our marriage.
• 51:30
  Keli Keener: We like even, you know, even hard things, you know.
• 51:33
  Keli Keener: I mean, sometimes I'm like, Mark, we've talked about this 10 times.
• 51:36
  Keli Keener: Do we really need to talk about this again?
• 51:38
  Keli Keener: Because he's become the talker and I've become the listener.
• 51:41
  Daniel Moore: We flip-flop too.
• 51:42
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, we flip-flop back and forth.
• 51:44
  Michelle Moore: I'm like, would you just stop talking?
• 51:45
  Keli Keener: Let's go.
• 51:46
  Keli Keener: Yeah, let's just do it.
• 51:47
  Keli Keener: You've you've reprimanded me, let's move on.
• 51:49
  Keli Keener: Or I've reprimanded, let's move on.
• 51:50
  Keli Keener: We don't need to talk about this anymore.
• 51:51
  Keli Keener: But Mark likes to, you know, and so now he's the so we've really flip-flopped now.
• 51:56
  Keli Keener: Like I'm the disciplinarian and he's the softy, you know, and the grandkids love him, you know, and think he's great, and I'm just where's papa, you know.
• 52:04
  Keli Keener: And I mean, you know, the kids, you know, they I just I think that talking, we've just never quit talking.
• 52:10
  Keli Keener: So good.
• 52:11
  Keli Keener: And we do flip-flop a back and forth.
• 52:13
  Keli Keener: But right now he's the softy.
• 52:15
  Marcus Keener: And I I do, I tell every couple, you know, when it comes to a point where you can't talk to each other, then you're really in trouble.
• 52:22
  Michelle Moore: Oh, absolutely.
• 52:23
  Marcus Keener: I mean, because you know, that's the person that you chose to be the rest of your life with.
• 52:28
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 52:29
  Marcus Keener: Once you get to the point where you can't talk to that person, then you got some serious, serious issues that need to be addressed.
• 52:35
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 52:36
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 52:36
  Marcus Keener: You know, so I mean, it's it's hard.
• 52:39
  Marcus Keener: I mean, but but you have to even when you say the wrong things, you gotta say something.
• 52:44
  Keli Keener: Yes, you know.
• 52:45
  Keli Keener: Be careful with the wrong things though.
• 52:47
  Marcus Keener: I mean, I have a lot of good ideas.
• 52:50
  Marcus Keener: They just don't always come out very good.
• 52:53
  Marcus Keener: Both of us.
• 52:54
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, so the word I think of is to with that is grace.
• 52:58
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 52:59
  Daniel Moore: Absolutely.
• 53:01
  Keli Keener: I think that we are better at giving grace.
• 53:02
  Keli Keener: Like we are so much better at giving grace now than we were, because before it was I you know, I don't really know what we thought marriage was.
• 53:10
  Keli Keener: I mean, I don't know what we thought.
• 53:12
  Keli Keener: We knew we loved each other.
• 53:13
  Keli Keener: We knew that that each other had a special place in our hearts.
• 53:18
  Keli Keener: And but I just don't, I mean, looking back and thinking about this, I I don't even really know that we knew what marriage was.
• 53:25
  Keli Keener: I mean, I've I've seen one half healthy marriage halfway, you know, um, really.
• 53:31
  Keli Keener: I mean, it is really healthy now, but in the beginning it wasn't.
• 53:35
  Keli Keener: But you know, it's we didn't see healthy marriages.
• 53:37
  Keli Keener: We, you know, we didn't know what they were.
• 53:39
  Keli Keener: I didn't grow up that way either.
• 53:41
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 53:42
  Daniel Moore: I think that's way more common than we realize, to be quite honest, because you know, I think every couple that gets married, especially if it's at a young age and it's a first marriage, you know, they're just ready to whoop the world and they've got it all figured out, you know.
• 53:56
  Daniel Moore: And it's like it only takes like a year or two to decide, wait a minute, we didn't know squat.
• 54:00
  Daniel Moore: Really, Mark was my savior.
• 54:03
  Keli Keener: Yeah, he was my savior.
• 54:04
  Keli Keener: He got me out of that situation.
• 54:06
  Keli Keener: And, you know, he was kind of a savior to me and rescued me.
• 54:10
  Keli Keener: And Mark's always rescued me, even as a teenager, and you know what I mean?
• 54:14
  Keli Keener: And I feel like that was kind of his role.
• 54:16
  Keli Keener: And so when I realized I knew I had a say I needed a savior, and it wasn't Marcus.
• 54:21
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 54:21
  Keli Keener: It was that was hard for me.
• 54:23
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 54:24
  Keli Keener: What is his role in my life?
• 54:25
  Marcus Keener: It was hard for me letting somebody else be that in her.
• 54:28
  Keli Keener: Oh, yeah.
• 54:29
  Daniel Moore: You know, so there's a lot of things I think within our own selves sometimes that we uh create our own roadblocks.
• 54:37
  Daniel Moore: We do.
• 54:37
  Daniel Moore: You know, it's I hate to say that, but honestly, there's so many times I can look back, even with the marital issues we've had.
• 54:43
  Daniel Moore: I created a lot of my own issues, right?
• 54:45
  Daniel Moore: We both did that.
• 54:46
  Daniel Moore: I I wanted to blame everybody else because I couldn't get out of it and I couldn't work around it and the whole time it was me.
• 54:50
  Daniel Moore: You know, it's like we have to you was talking about pride earlier.
• 54:54
  Daniel Moore: Uh we have to get to that point where we have to recognize what that pride is, like we were talking earlier, and do what it takes to whip that, you know, and and take care of that.
• 55:06
  Michelle Moore: For the wife listening whose husband isn't following Christ, or that maybe he's walked away from his faith, what would you guys say to her from your own experience?
• 55:18
  Marcus Keener: Don't give up.
• 55:19
  Marcus Keener: Don't quit.
• 55:20
  Marcus Keener: Keep praying.
• 55:23
  Marcus Keener: Uh do your best to be a Proverbs 31 woman down.
• 55:27
  Marcus Keener: Your very best, because that will that will show him that you're still there.
• 55:34
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 55:35
  Marcus Keener: You're still in it, and it'll be his choice whether it'll be done or not.
• 55:40
  Marcus Keener: It's not then you know, she but you know both spouses need to do the best they can that to earn their way out, is what we call it.
• 55:49
  Marcus Keener: You know, we you gotta earn your way out.
• 55:52
  Marcus Keener: And we never got to that point, thank God.
• 55:55
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 55:55
  Daniel Moore: No.
• 55:56
  Marcus Keener: You know, but but we see other couples that just well, I'm just quit, I'm just done.
• 56:00
  Marcus Keener: Done with what?
• 56:03
  Marcus Keener: That's that's so petty to be done over.
• 56:05
  Marcus Keener: You know, I mean that's that's nothing.
• 56:07
  Keli Keener: For us it seems petty, but for them it's so big.
• 56:10
  Marcus Keener: It's a major point in their marriage, you know, but yeah.
• 56:13
  Marcus Keener: But I think it's because of how they deal with the other stuff that's you know, the root of it.
• 56:18
  Marcus Keener: You know, that petty thing is not the root of it.
• 56:21
  Marcus Keener: Right.
• 56:21
  Marcus Keener: It's just the what's on surface.
• 56:23
  Marcus Keener: You know, they're just skimming the surface of things, not getting down to the depth of it.
• 56:27
  Keli Keener: So I would just really encourage women to love their husband.
• 56:31
  Keli Keener: Um because I think we can become very legalistic sometimes as a wife, like well, they're not doing this, so I'm not gonna do this, or I'm not gonna and I think that if you have a spouse that is turned away or not a Christian, that we are born to the ministry of reconciliation.
• 56:52
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 56:52
  Daniel Moore: That's good.
• 56:53
  Keli Keener: And that that needs to be our focus.
• 56:56
  Keli Keener: Whether your marriage can stay together or not, you are still have a part of their salvation and them getting to heaven.
• 57:03
  Keli Keener: And so, you know, think heavenly minded and not just earthly minded.
• 57:07
  Keli Keener: Um I want my husband in heaven with me.
• 57:10
  Keli Keener: And that, you know, and I think that um I want my my children's father to be in heaven with us, right?
• 57:16
  Keli Keener: Um and so I think love, don't become legalistic, don't get caught up in the legalism of he needs to go to church every Sunday, he needs to do this.
• 57:24
  Keli Keener: No, he needs a relationship with Jesus.
• 57:26
  Keli Keener: The rest will follow.
• 57:27
  Keli Keener: He needs a relationship with Jesus, he needs to know who Jesus is.
• 57:30
  Keli Keener: More than Savior, he he's so much more than Savior.
• 57:33
  Keli Keener: That's where it begins.
• 57:34
  Keli Keener: Um, but he's so much more than savior.
• 57:36
  Keli Keener: He's, you know, he's our Lord, he's our He's our guide, he's our help, our never-ending presence.
• 57:42
  Keli Keener: He's, you know, all the things.
• 57:44
  Keli Keener: And so I I really encourage you really evaluate yourself.
• 57:48
  Keli Keener: Am I being legalistic or am I showing grace and love?
• 57:51
  Keli Keener: And I really encourage the wives to show grace and love.
• 57:55
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 57:55
  Daniel Moore: It's good.
• 57:55
  Daniel Moore: I think one thing that I I'm thinking of right now as you guys are talking is we have to remember we can't change each other.
• 58:02
  Keli Keener: No.
• 58:03
  Daniel Moore: We can only change ourselves.
• 58:04
  Daniel Moore: And this came up earlier, even Marcus, with what you were saying.
• 58:07
  Daniel Moore: And I think so often we do come into our marriages, and well, I'm a I'm I'm gonna say I'm guilty of it, and we I've talked about this before on our on our podcast.
• 58:16
  Daniel Moore: The first marriage that I had, I thought I could change my wife that I married at the time.
• 58:21
  Daniel Moore: And we were unequally yoked, um, church-wise, in many different ways.
• 58:25
  Daniel Moore: And I think we both came into that relationship that we could just change each other, and it never happened.
• 58:30
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 58:31
  Daniel Moore: And I think we have to get beyond that point where we think I'm gonna change you to this or that or whatever.
• 58:36
  Daniel Moore: We need to put that to the side and say, No, I'm gonna change me, and then let your spouse change them, with if God's the one that's doing all of this reconstruction and everything, that's a beautiful thing that comes out of that.
• 58:48
  Daniel Moore: It is, yeah.
• 58:48
  Keli Keener: It really is.
• 58:49
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, and it's like it's it could never get any better as long as we let God stay in the middle of it and stay that that putty in his hands, that potter.
• 58:57
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 58:58
  Marcus Keener: I think we forget too often that, you know, if you're married to uh your spouse is a Christian, if they want to stray, yes, it's our responsibility just to love them and woo them back and woo them back if we can, but that does not release us from our duties as a as their spouse.
• 59:20
  Marcus Keener: Right.
• 59:21
  Marcus Keener: It doesn't release us from our duties of praying over them, it doesn't release us from our duties of serving them, it doesn't release us from any of that just because they want to neglect their part of it.
• 59:33
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, that ain't got nothing to do with releasing us from our part of it.
• 59:38
  Marcus Keener: That's good.
• 59:38
  Daniel Moore: That's a good word.
• 59:39
  Michelle Moore: That is good.
• 59:40
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, and I think a lot of times people are ready to walk.
• 59:42
  Daniel Moore: Yes.
• 59:43
  Michelle Moore: Or if you're not treated that way, it's like it's like, well, if they're gonna treat me that way, I'm out of here.
• 59:47
  Michelle Moore: I'm I or I'm just not gonna treat you good, you know.
• 59:50
  Michelle Moore: You deserve it because you're not treating me.
• 59:52
  Michelle Moore: So what you just said is really, really important because I think a lot of Christians forget that.
• 59:58
  Michelle Moore: Yeah.
• 59:58
  Marcus Keener: Yes.
• 59:59
  Marcus Keener: Well, I mean, th you said deserve it.
• 1:00:02
  Marcus Keener: I mean, if we really got what we deserve, none of us would be here.
• 1:00:05
  Marcus Keener: Right.
• 1:00:05
  Marcus Keener: Because Christ took all of that for us.
• 1:00:08
  Marcus Keener: So good.
• 1:00:09
  Marcus Keener: That deserving part, you know.
• 1:00:11
  Marcus Keener: And so if we really believe uh what the Bible tells us, then it does not release us from our responsibilities of that relationship.
• 1:00:22
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 1:00:23
  Keli Keener: So and as a believer too, in the relationship, but also as a believer, we are to be Christ-like to everyone.
• 1:00:31
  Keli Keener: And even the unlovable, right?
• 1:00:33
  Keli Keener: And there's a lot of times we're not lovable as spouses.
• 1:00:36
  Keli Keener: We're just not.
• 1:00:37
  Keli Keener: And I think sometimes we we can't just go on on our feelings.
• 1:00:40
  Keli Keener: Our feelings lie to us.
• 1:00:42
  Keli Keener: Oh, I don't feel like I love him anymore.
• 1:00:43
  Keli Keener: I don't feel like there's a lot of things I don't feel like doing is dishes and laundry, right?
• 1:00:48
  Keli Keener: But they have got to get done eventually.
• 1:00:49
  Keli Keener: I mean, they got to get done sometimes, right?
• 1:00:52
  Keli Keener: Um, I don't want to go to the doctor, but I have to once in a while.
• 1:00:55
  Keli Keener: I mean, all the things that we don't want to do, we can't go on our emotions, we've got to go on what we know and also what we believe, right?
• 1:01:03
  Keli Keener: And so I choose to believe that God ordained our marriage.
• 1:01:07
  Keli Keener: It's a covenant that we have with the Lord, not just us, but with the Lord.
• 1:01:12
  Keli Keener: And I choose to believe that because of God's word.
• 1:01:15
  Keli Keener: And so, because of that, that's important that I'm a person in my word.
• 1:01:19
  Keli Keener: Now, I know not every marriage probably is ordained by God, right?
• 1:01:23
  Keli Keener: But I also know that when God you put the Lord in the middle of it, right?
• 1:01:29
  Keli Keener: You put him at the center, he can work.
• 1:01:32
  Daniel Moore: Yes, he can.
• 1:01:33
  Keli Keener: And so that legal connection that we have in the spiritual realm is just as important as a legal paper in the state that we were married in.
• 1:01:43
  Keli Keener: So um I think that covenant piece is so important that I don't always feel like being married.
• 1:01:49
  Keli Keener: I don't always feel like sharing my paycheck, you know, or whatever, you know, or you know what I'm saying, sharing the checking account, right?
• 1:01:57
  Keli Keener: Or ask, you know, being considerate sometimes.
• 1:02:00
  Keli Keener: Sometimes I'm just not considerate.
• 1:02:02
  Keli Keener: Um sometimes I just want to do my own thing and who cares, right?
• 1:02:05
  Keli Keener: But but that's not who I am at heart.
• 1:02:08
  Keli Keener: That's just in that moment of reacting to something.
• 1:02:10
  Keli Keener: And so I think it's real important that we really look at those emotions.
• 1:02:13
  Keli Keener: Like, am I really feeling this way or am I just frustrated because you know the laundry pile is getting bigger, you know, or whatever.
• 1:02:20
  Keli Keener: Am I frustrated because my car broke down or whatever it is?
• 1:02:23
  Keli Keener: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 1:02:24
  Marcus Keener: Frustrated because we've been home in nine days or whatever.
• 1:02:26
  Marcus Keener: You know, but three hours, you know.
• 1:02:29
  Marcus Keener: In and out at all times.
• 1:02:31
  Marcus Keener: Yeah.
• 1:02:31
  Keli Keener: So I I mean, I just think that remember as as believers, our first ministry's home.
• 1:02:37
  Keli Keener: You're exactly right.
• 1:02:39
  Keli Keener: Our first ministry's home.
• 1:02:40
  Keli Keener: And if your husband's away from the Lord, it's on time to crucify him.
• 1:02:45
  Keli Keener: It's a time to love him back.
• 1:02:46
  Keli Keener: You know, love covers a multitude of sins.
• 1:02:49
  Keli Keener: Yeah, and their um kindness leads them to repentance, and not our judgment, not our list of rules, but our kindness leads them to repentance.
• 1:03:00
  Keli Keener: And so I would just encourage people to love them.
• 1:03:03
  Keli Keener: I mean, I know that sometimes Mark was not lovable, and I'm not either sometimes.
• 1:03:07
  Keli Keener: I hate to admit that, because I'm the fun one, and sometimes I'm just not lovable, but I'm really not the fun one anymore.
• 1:03:15
  Keli Keener: Mark is really the fun one, but I'm just sometimes not lovable.
• 1:03:18
  Keli Keener: Yeah, we do.
• 1:03:19
  Keli Keener: We flip-flop, but but I do love him, and I'm so glad God brought us through that because I I mean, he is, you know, he's one of my best friends.
• 1:03:29
  Keli Keener: He is my best friend.
• 1:03:30
  Keli Keener: Him and my sister are my best friend.
• 1:03:33
  Keli Keener: And you know my role.
• 1:03:34
  Keli Keener: I know my place.
• 1:03:36
  Keli Keener: We were roommates, so it's hard.
• 1:03:38
  Keli Keener: But you know, I love him dearly, and I know that the Lord put me in his life for a purpose, not just to be his wife, but also to love him unconditionally, to lead him to the Lord and and to continue that sanctification process together.
• 1:03:54
  Marcus Keener: As a wife, she has healed a lot of hurts that she never caused.
• 1:03:59
  Daniel Moore: Wow.
• 1:04:00
  Daniel Moore: Sweet.
• 1:04:01
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 1:04:02
  Daniel Moore: I think the one thing that's changed my outlook on my marriage um over the years, as everything that we've been through, I now look at marriage as it's my privilege.
• 1:04:12
  Daniel Moore: And I think since I've you know started looking at it that way, it takes away all of the needing to stack up, needing to, you know, fulfill the in the blanks, needing to fulfill the needs, you know, all the different things that uh that we hear people talk about all the time when it comes to marriages and everything.
• 1:04:30
  Daniel Moore: When it's a privilege that I get to be in this marriage and in this relationship, then everything else is just an awesome side side thing, the you know, side dish that comes along with it, you know.
• 1:04:41
  Daniel Moore: Is it all easy all the time?
• 1:04:42
  Daniel Moore: No, it's not.
• 1:04:43
  Daniel Moore: But uh that's the fun of all of it.
• 1:04:46
  Daniel Moore: When we get to the other side of that, we can look back and say, we had another victory.
• 1:04:49
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 1:04:50
  Daniel Moore: You know, Satan did not win again.
• 1:04:52
  Daniel Moore: And I think there's that speaks volumes.
• 1:04:55
  Daniel Moore: There's just so much to be said with that.
• 1:04:57
  Keli Keener: Yeah, I think so too.
• 1:04:58
  Daniel Moore: So, man, guys, this is this has been really good.
• 1:05:01
  Keli Keener: It's going by so fast.
• 1:05:02
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, it really has.
• 1:05:03
  Daniel Moore: It's over, it's been over an hour.
• 1:05:04
  Daniel Moore: Has it really?
• 1:05:05
  Daniel Moore: Oh, yeah.
• 1:05:06
  Daniel Moore: Wow.
• 1:05:06
  Daniel Moore: It's been a good one.
• 1:05:07
  Michelle Moore: Is there anything you guys want to add to it before we close?
• 1:05:12
  Keli Keener: Man.
• 1:05:13
  Michelle Moore: Words of wisdom.
• 1:05:14
  Marcus Keener: Manly if you're out there and you're trying to do this by yourself, maybe be a husband by yourself, get somebody with you.
• 1:05:22
  Marcus Keener: Find men that's yeah, uh a little more seasoned than you are, and let them mentor you a little bit.
• 1:05:31
  Marcus Keener: Let them draw you close to them and help you walk through this, because they see things because they've done bent they're they're looking on the other side.
• 1:05:40
  Daniel Moore: Yeah.
• 1:05:40
  Marcus Keener: Instead of trying to climb the hill, they're they're on top of it trying to pull you up.
• 1:05:44
  Marcus Keener: Let them pull you up.
• 1:05:46
  Marcus Keener: You know, get that help.
• 1:05:47
  Marcus Keener: Don't be doing things alone.
• 1:05:49
  Marcus Keener: We are never created to do things alone.
• 1:05:51
  Marcus Keener: That's you know, that's why a spouse is so important.
• 1:05:54
  Marcus Keener: In Genesis he said, you know, that was the only thing he said when he created Adam that it was not well.
• 1:05:59
  Marcus Keener: Right.
• 1:06:00
  Marcus Keener: It wasn't good.
• 1:06:01
  Marcus Keener: Right.
• 1:06:02
  Marcus Keener: He said it was not good for him to be alone.
• 1:06:04
  Marcus Keener: And so we are never created to be alone.
• 1:06:07
  Marcus Keener: We always need uh our spouse with us and we also need other men to walk along with us because we we just need that support system and and we as men are always told our whole lives, just just do it, just deal with it, just do it.
• 1:06:22
  Marcus Keener: It doesn't matter, suck it up, just do it, you know.
• 1:06:24
  Marcus Keener: And no, I mean it's it's so much easier when you got three or four guys walking with you.
• 1:06:30
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, I agree.
• 1:06:31
  Marcus Keener: To share the load.
• 1:06:32
  Keli Keener: And as a wife, as Mark found community with men that were authentically lovers of Christ, that authentically wanted to serve him and learn more and grow in their faith.
• 1:06:44
  Keli Keener: And um man, what a privilege it was to sit back and watch this and see m my husband be that for other men, but men being that for him, and not criticizing and not saying, you know, if you just prayed more or if you just fast or if you would just this or that, but just loving.
• 1:07:01
  Keli Keener: And it's been great to be a part of believers that just love us and that we love them and it's just unconditional.
• 1:07:09
  Keli Keener: And um so I encourage people, I think find those men, find those women in your life that you can call.
• 1:07:15
  Keli Keener: Um what what do you call them, Mark?
• 1:07:17
  Keli Keener: Two o'clock men?
• 1:07:18
  Marcus Keener: I do.
• 1:07:18
  Marcus Keener: I call them the two o'clock men because they're they're perfectly fine with you calling them at two o'clock in the morning.
• 1:07:24
  Marcus Keener: And if need be, they are on their way to be with you.
• 1:07:27
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 1:07:27
  Marcus Keener: And so that's we need those men in our life.
• 1:07:30
  Keli Keener: And be prepared to be that.
• 1:07:31
  Keli Keener: Yeah.
• 1:07:32
  Marcus Keener: We you know, if you if you are not that to anybody, you need to be that to somebody.
• 1:07:37
  Daniel Moore: That's right.
• 1:07:38
  Marcus Keener: Because you've lived life long enough to that you got wisdom to impart on somebody else that's not as seasoned as you are.
• 1:07:44
  Daniel Moore: That's good.
• 1:07:45
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, we all need our community.
• 1:07:47
  Daniel Moore: There's there's no doubt about that at all.
• 1:07:49
  Daniel Moore: Well, we've been here this week with Marcus and Keli Keener.
• 1:07:52
  Daniel Moore: They're just some really good friends of Michelle and our and mine, and uh we've We just love them.
• 1:07:58
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, we do.
• 1:07:58
  Daniel Moore: You guys are awesome.
• 1:07:59
  Daniel Moore: And we've we talked to you you know quite a while back about this, and we're finally just now getting to this, but we're so thankful that you guys was a yes and that you came on this week.
• 1:08:08
  Daniel Moore: And I know that a lot of things have you said is gonna be touching some people's yes, some people's lives and their marriages.
• 1:08:14
  Daniel Moore: And just want to thank you guys for for being here this week.
• 1:08:17
  Marcus Keener: I'm feeling Levi Lesco, he said when it comes to Jesus, my answer is always yes.
• 1:08:23
  Marcus Keener: Then we just gotta figure out what the question is.
• 1:08:25
  Marcus Keener: Yeah, that'd be right.
• 1:08:26
  Daniel Moore: Yeah, there's plenty to talk about after the fact, right?
• 1:08:29
  Daniel Moore: So much.
• 1:08:30
  Keli Keener: We got so much.
• 1:08:31
  Keli Keener: We have so much to say about the Lord and what he's done and how he's moved in our lives and repaired relationships restored, and not over just our marriage, but in life.
• 1:08:41
  Keli Keener: We can just, we're so thankful.
• 1:08:56
  Daniel Moore: Man, what a story! And I think one of the biggest takeaways from this week is that God doesn't just save us and then leave us exactly where he found us.
• 1:09:04
  Daniel Moore: He keeps working.
• 1:09:06
  Daniel Moore: You know, sometimes that transformation happens in an instant, sometimes it happens one prayer, one conversation, one counseling session, and one hard lesson at a time.
• 1:09:15
  Daniel Moore: And let's face it, marriage gives God plenty of material to work with.
• 1:09:19
  Daniel Moore: If you've ever wondered whether your spouse is part of your sanctification process, well, there's a pretty good chance the answer is yes.
• 1:09:26
  Daniel Moore: But Marcus and Keli's story this week reminds us that no heart is too hard, no struggle has to be faced alone, and no marriage is beyond God's ability to redeem and reshape.
• 1:09:37
  Daniel Moore: So whether you're praying for a spouse who doesn't know Christ, working through struggles of your own, or simply realizing that you need a few of those two o'clock friends in your life, don't isolate yourself.
• 1:09:47
  Daniel Moore: Keep praying, keep pursuing Christ and surround yourself with people who will point you back to Him.
• 1:09:54
  Daniel Moore: Your story isn't finished yet, and you never know what God may be writing in the next chapter.
• 1:10:00
  Daniel Moore: Well, that's going to be all for this week.
• 1:10:02
  Daniel Moore: As we come back next week, we will be bringing you another brand new episode.
• 1:10:06
  Daniel Moore: So make sure you're subscribed to check that out as it releases.
• 1:10:10
  Daniel Moore: Visit our website, marriage lifeamore.com, for anything about our ministry.
• 1:10:13
  Daniel Moore: You can reach out to us there as well.
• 1:10:15
  Daniel Moore: That's all for this week.
• 1:10:16
  Daniel Moore: We pray that your marriage is stronger and your walk with God is closer after this episode.
• 1:10:20
  Daniel Moore: This episode is recorded in the upper room at our Connecting the Gap Studios.
• 1:10:23
  Daniel Moore: This is an extension of Connecting the Gap Ministries.
• 1:10:26
  Daniel Moore: I pray that you have a blessed week.