Latest / How to Be an Adult / More About Addiction, with Marc Lewis (Ep. 17, pt. 2 of 2)

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More About Addiction, with Marc Lewis (Ep. 17, pt. 2 of 2) · How to Be an Adult

0:00
And it is hard to give up but
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not impossible
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because
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when
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he goes for a few days without it
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for various.
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Yes.
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Especially since shame is an undercurrent,
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it's only gonna exacerbate the profit. You may
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improve your your state your functioning for an
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hour or 2 and mess it up for
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the next week. That would be an unfortunate
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Welcome to How to be an Adult.
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Today's episode continues part 1, which was released
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2 weeks ago.
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It's an interview with the psychologist and bestselling
0:30
author, Mark Lewis,
0:32
about addiction. If you haven't yet heard it,
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please go to how to be adult.com,
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or look us up on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
0:40
or wherever you get your podcasts.
0:46
So we're talking about how there's some kind
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of positive intent
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even to the critical inner dialogue that you
0:55
want to suppress through alcohol or drugs
1:00
And
1:01
the behavior
1:03
of using alcohol, drugs, gambling, porn, etcetera,
1:06
therefore, it has some kind of positive intent,
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right?
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Yes,
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that's what I think is under recognized
1:16
in the way that many people see addiction.
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Many people see addiction as all bad. There's
1:22
no positive side. You know, it's enabling to
1:26
look at the positive side. I totally agree.
1:28
Yeah. So,
1:30
again, we're kind of
1:33
arriving somewhat independently at the same conclusions. Yeah.
1:36
I think so too. And the conclusions are
1:38
in
1:39
contradiction
1:40
to
1:41
so
1:42
much
1:43
of
1:44
what's being said about addiction in the public
1:47
sphere.
1:47
I
1:48
agree. So
1:51
how do we make the world a better
1:52
place? That was not well articulated. And it
1:54
comes back. But the question I'm trying to
1:56
get to, like, so we have a podcast,
1:58
not a huge podcast
1:59
yet, but let's
2:01
say that our
2:04
listeners are struggling with some form of addiction
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by the, you know, time they're tuning into
2:09
this episode and by the time they've gotten
2:11
this far. Mhmm. So,
2:13
one, we're kind of like a voice of
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of hope in a way for these listeners
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because, you know, we're not gonna demonize you.
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I mean not just us individually
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but you know people who think along these
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lines
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are not going to say you're bad for
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drinking too much.
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It's a really important starting place right there.
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Yes. Especially since shame is an undercurrent,
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it's only gonna exacerbate the problem
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to imply that you're bad. Yeah. So, like,
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AA is kind of interesting because there are
2:45
really different,
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cultures in different AA groups. Some of them
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actually do use shaming.
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Maybe it's not quite intentional deliberate, but it
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kinda comes across as it can be pretty
2:58
nasty.
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And, you know, well, John, what did you
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think was gonna happen? You know, kind of
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thing. So some groups are like that. Some
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groups really try to avoid it. Yep. But
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but indeed, shame makes everything worse. Shame is
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an incredibly painful, painful emotion
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and it and and it's it's kinda contagious
3:16
in the inner world as you suggested.
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It's like when you look inside, everything is
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sort of coated with shame.
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So that's pretty awful. Right? And what do
3:25
you do when you are habitually using a
3:28
substance, like whether it's coke or opioids or
3:32
even alcohol?
3:33
And everybody's looking at you like you're an
3:36
asshole. Yeah. You know? And, like, what do
3:38
you do about that? Because how do you
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pull yourself apart from that perception
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enough to be able to say, no, I'm
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not trying to be that way. I'm not
3:47
trying to be
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I'm really just trying to feel comfortable in
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my own skin, which is really hard to
3:53
do because
3:54
of my PTSD,
3:56
because of my, you know, my post traumatic
3:58
stress, because of I've lived through whatever,
4:01
divorce, separation, abuse,
4:03
neglect,
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just been fired from my job and left
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by my boyfriend or girlfriend. It's like there
4:08
are so many things that I feel really
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crappy about. Yeah. Well, sorry. You know, that
4:12
doesn't really help at all. A counterintuitive Well,
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sorry, you know, that doesn't really help at
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all.
4:19
Counter intuitively,
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because of the element of fraternity
4:24
and camaraderie and,
4:26
you know, human connection being such a, I
4:29
don't want to say curative factor,
4:31
but
4:32
because that's a It's a It's a
4:34
sportive factor. Yeah. Sure. You know, shame just
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like topples that whole house of cards. Yeah.
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It really does. Yeah. It's it's really toxic.
4:44
Yep. And they call it there's a word
4:45
toxic shame in in psychodynamic
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Yes. Terminology. Yeah. Counterintuitively,
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it's going to be love and accept I
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mean, go back to Carl Rogers.
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Unconditional positive regard that someone who's undergoing all
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the stress that leads to addiction is going
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to need.
5:04
And I guess that that that's you know,
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I sound like a broken record on this
5:07
podcast,
5:08
coming back to
5:10
self love and self acceptance and self respect
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as almost panaceas
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for whatever ails you.
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But when, you know, when it comes
5:21
to something we need like oxygen,
5:24
self love and self respect and self compassion,
5:27
we need like oxygen. So oxygen's not just
5:30
a, you know, a panacea for, like, what,
5:32
hypoxia.
5:34
You know, if we breathe deeply enough,
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we're going to be a little bit more
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relaxed and happy. And even if we feel
5:40
loved by others, having, you know, consistent enough
5:43
self love and self acceptance and self compassion
5:43
and every other form
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self love
5:52
in my view, be preventative against developing
5:56
a cocaine habit or an alcohol habit or
5:58
a smoking habit or a gambling habit or
6:00
a gambling habit. Generally, yes. Generally, I think
6:02
that's true. Yeah.
6:04
What would the exceptions be?
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It's not so much that there are exceptions
6:07
to that principle, but
6:10
what what you say sounds redundant because you
6:13
keep emphasizing it self love. Well, it's not
6:16
that's redundant. It's just it's really it can
6:18
be very complex.
6:20
Like how does that actually work? How does
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that manifest? Right? So what does that mean?
6:24
What let's say you,
6:27
let's say you have a very powerful temper
6:29
and you hurt people without meaning to, but
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you do it often enough. Yep.
6:34
Then how do you love yourself? How do
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you
6:38
how do you love the the the rescue
6:40
dog that just bit someone at the shelter?
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Okay. Yeah. Like that. Same way. And so
6:45
there's all kinds of things that we see
6:46
about ourselves,
6:48
that are hard to love. Aspects that are
6:50
hard to love features
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and there's reasons why they're hard to love.
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They're hard to love partly because obviously, we
6:56
were,
6:58
we we were raised. We were
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trained, I guess, essentially
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to not hurt our little brothers and sisters,
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to not grab all the food, to not
7:09
be messy and dirty and smelly and whatever
7:11
else it is and aggressive. We were we
7:14
were trained. We were,
7:16
socialized
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to be all those things because that's the
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way society functions best or that's the way
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the family functions best or the community or
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the group or the church or whatever it
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is. So okay. Give up all of those
7:31
or shall I say subjugate all those human
7:33
characteristics
7:34
for the purpose of the whole, for the
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purpose of the group, or the village or
7:38
that whatever society.
7:39
Good idea. Yeah. Maybe except that there's so
7:42
much wreckage and the wreckage is that we
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are human and we are greedy and selfish
7:48
and dirty and aggressive,
7:49
you know, and all of that stuff. We
7:51
really are. And also kind and loving and
7:53
accepting and so on. And with that too.
7:55
So I kind of,
7:58
I've got a good friend who's kind of
7:59
a religious scholar or I should say a
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scholar of religion. That's a pretty important difference.
8:05
Well, he isn't religious particularly, but he is
8:08
a scholar who really and his PhD thesis
8:10
was about Methodism. The Methodist,
8:14
I don't know what they call it, sector
8:16
grouping of Christianity,
8:19
in which the idea is to get all
8:21
of your sins and confess to all your
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sins.
8:25
I am indeed greedy
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and lazy
8:28
and fornicator
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and what else? All those things.
8:32
I do all those things and I'm selfish
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and possessive and cruel, I mean, and
8:37
whatever.
8:38
And you put them all on the table
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and you get them right out there in
8:41
front of you and in methodist the methodist
8:44
practice the,
8:47
what's the word for it? When you sort
8:49
of blessed or forgiven. There's a there's a
8:50
word for which I always forget, but but
8:52
anyway,
8:53
and then you
8:55
are taught that God loves you anyway. Mhmm.
8:57
God or Christ loves you anyway with all
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of those
9:03
problems, with all of those deviations,
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he still loves you entirely. Well, that's a
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really special kind of message. Mhmm. And I
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think although the Judeo Christian
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doctrine has
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screwed up in a lot of ways Mhmm.
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That was at least a pretty reasonable attempt
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to try to get across the idea that
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we can be human and still be feel
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accepted and feel loved and feel like we
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belong.
9:27
One of the interesting things about, addiction, what
9:29
we're talking about is that AA tries to
9:32
sort of do the same thing. In AA,
9:34
you admit that you're an alcoholic. You admit
9:36
that you have no control. You admit that
9:38
you're a loser and a bum and you've
9:40
been you've been deceiving yourself and everybody else.
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And, you know, one of the 12 steps
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is to apologize
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to everyone you've harmed.
9:49
So it's very similar, I think, to the
9:51
Methodist idea
9:52
of, redemption. That was word of redemption.
9:55
Put all the sins on the table. Mhmm.
9:58
Admit it. Right. Admit it. Yeah. If you
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don't admit it, then you're full of pride
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and that's another sin. Okay. So we're gonna
10:04
put that one on the table too. And
10:06
then
10:07
and I think the higher power idea Mhmm.
10:09
Which you and I both kind of, you
10:11
know, are not
10:13
completely pleased about, but that idea is the
10:15
idea that there is some thing like God
10:18
or some kind of spirit or essence or
10:20
universal quality or God Yeah. Or Christ or
10:23
what have you that accepts you anyway. Mhmm.
10:26
And that is in its own that's fairly
10:28
similar to what you're talking about is the
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healing power of love and
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belonging
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and and self care. And I I can't
10:36
help but make
10:37
Paral Health with Rogerian therapy Sure. Where the
10:41
therapist rather than Christ accepts you anyway. Like,
10:44
you just confessed all of your wrongdoing and
10:46
sins Yeah. In the therapy room. Yeah. But
10:48
there is But you're right. It is parallel.
10:50
Yeah. When there are multiple practices that independently
10:53
converge upon the same ideas, there's gotta be
10:56
something to those ideas. Yeah.
10:58
So we've kind of
11:01
glanced upon
11:02
the subject of systemic factors, like poverty
11:06
Mhmm. When it comes to addiction because it's
11:09
not just pull yourself up by the bootstraps,
11:11
by yourself, in your own log cabin that's
11:13
cut off from the grid. Right. Like, that
11:15
that that will not be a path to
11:17
happiness.
11:18
That there are gonna be systemic factors, like,
11:21
you know, for better or for worse, people
11:22
who are better off
11:25
are likely to have better outcomes. That's right.
11:28
And
11:29
people with a good support network, of course,
11:31
are gonna have better outcomes.
11:33
People who are in better health to begin
11:35
with are going to have better outcomes. People
11:38
who are of a higher socioeconomic
11:41
status independently of like their net
11:43
worth. Just having the prestige
11:46
of some help, because for sure others look
11:48
up to that boosts their self esteem and
11:50
makes it easy to get out of a
11:51
shame spiral. Yes. Exactly. So I know you
11:54
work as a psychotherapist, so you don't work
11:56
with, like, the whole family and their entire
11:59
team at work.
12:00
You work with an individual, yet that individual
12:03
exists
12:04
within a family, within a team at work,
12:06
with a certain boss who hopefully isn't an
12:08
but often is. Yeah. So let's say that
12:12
you're taking care
12:15
of
12:16
aging parents
12:18
who were abusive to you when you were
12:20
a child. Mhmm.
12:21
And
12:22
they now have dementia. Mhmm. So their abuse
12:25
has gotten worse.
12:27
And yet you're taking care of them. So
12:29
in your very own home, you're being abused
12:31
by the people you have verbally abused, emotionally
12:33
abused by the people
12:35
who you're trying to take care of.
12:37
So let's say that your client is this
12:40
well meaning person,
12:42
and the only way that he has to
12:44
cope is by downing a bottle of wine
12:47
at the end of every night to get
12:49
to sleep. Yeah. After his parents with dementia,
12:52
you know, finally stopped talking and fell asleep
12:54
in front of the television set. So he's
12:57
come to you and he wants you to
12:59
help him to stop downing that bottle of
13:01
wine Yeah. At the end of every night
13:02
because that's not making anything any better.
13:04
Maybe it is.
13:06
Okay.
13:07
Maybe it's getting him through the night. I
13:09
mean, I'm serious. I'm not just being glib.
13:11
Yeah. And so what I would do, I
13:13
I never asked my clients to stop. Mhmm.
13:16
That's just completely goes against my approach. Even
13:18
if they ask you to help them to
13:20
stop?
13:22
I don't do it like that. Okay. For
13:24
example, a guy just actually got in touch
13:25
with me very recently who smokes cannabis
13:29
addictively daily and is very concerned about the
13:31
health effects
13:32
on his,
13:33
lungs and and stuff and throat. And so
13:36
it's like
13:37
and he's having a real hard time stopping,
13:39
and it's not through lack of resources. He's
13:41
got a lot of the cognitive and social
13:43
resources he would need.
13:45
So
13:46
it kinda stretches
13:47
my approach, but my approach is to say,
13:50
what exactly
13:52
let's try to really focus in on what
13:54
you're getting
13:55
from that first
13:56
that first puff. Mhmm. Let's really try to
13:59
try to feel what you're getting, what you
14:00
what you need, why it feels so good
14:02
that it's hard to give up. Mhmm. And
14:04
it is hard to give up, but not
14:05
impossible because
14:07
when he goes for a few days without
14:09
it for various circumstantial reasons, he doesn't suffer
14:13
a whole lot. He doesn't sit there craving,
14:14
and there's nothing like that. Obviously, there's no
14:17
withdrawal for camp. There's no physical withdrawal. At
14:19
least not very little.
14:21
So
14:22
try to figure that out and try to
14:25
see if
14:26
using IFS therapy, try to talk with that
14:28
part and and really
14:30
contend with
14:32
what's missing. Mhmm. What's missing? Is it is
14:35
it if it's a feeling of freedom, then
14:38
what why don't you feel free? Mhmm. What
14:40
is it that is seem seems to be
14:43
locking
14:44
or diminishing your freedom
14:46
at the end of the day or at
14:47
the beginning of the day, whenever it is,
14:49
that that makes this so important, so special,
14:52
so valuable. Mhmm.
14:54
So,
14:55
you know, back to the guy who's drinking
14:57
a bottle of wine every night, and I've
14:59
certainly had clients like that, I would I
15:01
would say, well, I'm not an idiot. Like,
15:03
I would probably say, let's just keep it
15:05
down to a bottle a night. Mhmm. But
15:07
I would say that. Okay. Let's try not
15:09
to make it 2 bottles a night. Let's
15:10
try to keep it to wine and not
15:12
vodka. Okay. Got it. Drinking a bottle of
15:15
wine per night is probably gonna be a
15:17
lot easier, better for your body and for
15:19
those around you than drinking
15:21
a 750 milliliter bottle of vodka
15:24
Okay. So kind of like a harm reduction
15:26
Pretty much. Sort of a bunch. Okay. Pretty
15:27
much harm reduction. Yes. Got it. One issue
15:31
I take with harm reduction
15:33
is there's almost like this implication
15:35
that people are necessarily
15:37
gonna just use any way. Right?
15:40
Which
15:42
well, okay. So let me define first what
15:44
my view of a healthy relationship to a
15:47
substance is because you know, like, again, I'm
15:49
not a prohibitionist.
15:50
I do believe there is such a thing
15:52
as a healthy versus an unhealthy relationship to
15:55
alcohol or to a drug or something. Yeah.
15:56
So to to me, my con perception of
15:59
of a healthy relationship to any kind of
16:01
substance or any kind of behavior is that
16:04
you're doing it because it's somehow
16:07
adds
16:08
to your day or to your night. And
16:11
it's not something that's taking
16:15
from your your day. Like, it's not gonna
16:17
take your health or your well-being or your
16:20
self respect or your peace of mind. Mhmm.
16:22
Like for example, if I have a glass
16:24
of champagne on New Year's Eve, my New
16:26
Year's Eve is is better,
16:28
not worse Yeah. Because I have a glass
16:30
of champagne. Yeah. If I go to an
16:32
Italian restaurant, I have, like, a nice pasta
16:34
and then I have like a glass of
16:35
red wine that pairs well with the pasta.
16:38
You know, there's like really no downside to
16:40
the glass of wine. Yeah. And the glass
16:42
of wine is a good pairing
16:45
with my entree.
16:47
But then if
16:49
I'm in some kind of toxic environment
16:53
and I'm drinking
16:55
too much to the point where I'm just
16:57
further toxifying myself,
17:00
that to me is not an it's not
17:02
a drink that adds to my day or
17:04
my evening. That that to me is a
17:06
drink that kind of takes from me
17:09
even more so than what that toxic environment
17:12
is taking from me.
17:14
Right. You know, I know we're talking about
17:16
very complex situation where For sure. Life is
17:18
complex. Yeah. Yeah. Where, you know, it's not
17:21
always easy to just extricate yourself from a
17:24
toxic environment.
17:25
And at least, you know, the the bottle
17:28
of wine helps you get a sleep. So
17:30
at least you're not dealing with insomnia at
17:32
the same time.
17:35
Yeah. But the point I want to make
17:37
is I
17:38
I think it's worthwhile
17:40
to try
17:42
to find
17:43
a way
17:45
for the abusive parents words to just go
17:47
in one ear and out the other
17:50
or to develop
17:51
a such a strong sense of knowing your
17:54
values
17:55
or such a strong sense of self respect
17:58
that
17:59
you're only drinking
18:01
because it's new year's Eve or it's an
18:03
Italian restaurant
18:04
and you're not drinking because your parents just
18:07
called you a piece of for the 5th
18:09
time that night.
18:11
So, you know, we're dealing with like, even
18:13
in this hypothetical
18:15
simplified model of a bad household,
18:17
we're dealing with a very complex situation. Yeah.
18:20
But the
18:22
original question is,
18:24
can we really just treat the individual
18:28
when
18:29
an individual
18:31
is never an Island and is always part
18:33
of a family system or a community or
18:36
a workplace
18:37
or a relationship at the same time. Okay.
18:40
It's it's folly to try to treat addiction
18:42
as an individual problem.
18:44
Okay.
18:46
We have to
18:47
somehow instigate
18:49
a societal change
18:51
where, for example, parents are not automatically right.
18:54
Older people are not automatically right
18:57
if we normalize
18:59
Younger people abdicating their filial duty. Yeah
19:03
then maybe parents are gonna treat their adult
19:06
children better.
19:07
Yeah. Well, I think you should be able
19:09
to say to someone who's mistreating you, I
19:11
want you to stop.
19:13
And if you don't stop, I'm gonna walk
19:14
out of this door, and I'll see you
19:16
in an hour or next day or whatever
19:18
it is or in 15 minutes or whatever
19:20
it is. Yeah. And if they,
19:24
wet their pants, then
19:26
it's not your fault. To me, it seems
19:27
like the like the long way around to
19:29
put up with abuse and then
19:41
Yeah
19:41
Yeah. However,
19:43
social structural changes like that as you are
19:46
saying are complicated and difficult and take time
19:49
to to execute. Right? Yeah. Whereas,
19:53
if you need a mood changer, a mood
19:55
enhance
19:56
like substances, what we take as substances that
20:00
can become addictive,
20:03
we understand their purpose is to change our
20:05
mood. That is precisely
20:07
why we take them. Whether it's alcohol or
20:10
any of these other substances. Mhmm. Is that
20:12
Is there something wrong with that? You're saying
20:13
it interferes with some other way of dealing
20:16
with the problem that might get really at
20:18
the root causes. Yes, you're right. However,
20:21
you don't always have the time,
20:23
opportunity,
20:24
power or resources to get at the root
20:26
causes.
20:27
So what do you do?
20:29
What do you do? I mean, for how
20:30
long do you live in a state of
20:32
stress or whatever it is or oppression
20:35
without trying to regulate your mood one way
20:37
or another? And is there anything wrong with
20:39
regulating your mood with substances?
20:41
It's been a part of human civilization
20:43
for
20:44
well, at least 10000 years. So I I
20:46
think what I'm hearing you say is like,
20:48
what you're saying is compatible
20:50
with my view that
20:52
if the substance will add to your day
20:55
or your evening,
20:56
Go ahead and use it.
20:58
Yeah. It's really
21:00
just unnecessary
21:02
if taking it somehow just takes away from
21:04
it.
21:05
For for for your day or for Well,
21:06
yeah. But there's also a timing issue. It
21:08
it may improve your your state your functioning
21:12
for an hour or 2 and mess it
21:14
up for the next week. That would be
21:16
an unfortunate,
21:17
you know, payback, an unfortunate cost. Yeah. So
21:20
you wanna be sensitive to those things as
21:22
well, which is probably why crack cocaine
21:25
would not be the best choice if you're
21:28
trying to feel,
21:29
stay awake, you know, at night so you
21:31
can finish your homework or whatever it is.
21:33
Right. Right? I mean, yeah, you might finish
21:35
your homework Yeah. Or not. But it probably
21:38
would, you
21:39
know, kick you in the ass a little
21:41
bit down the line Right. In a serious
21:43
way. So all those computations are part of
21:45
our human
21:46
enterprise. They're part of what we have to
21:48
do. Yeah. And by the way, if you're
21:51
stressed out or depressed and you go to
21:53
the doctor, you're gonna get antidepressants
21:55
and anti anxiety drugs and we don't seem
21:58
to have any problem with that. Mhmm. We
22:00
don't seem to have any problem with taking
22:01
SSRIs or SNRIs. Well, this growing movement where
22:05
people do kind of have a problem with,
22:07
like, you know, the medicating of,
22:11
of human suffering as kind of a masking
22:13
of,
22:15
you know,
22:16
problems with with the world as it is.
22:19
Yeah. But you don't want it to be
22:20
the blanket, the only approach, but there are
22:23
many circumstances in which it makes sense.
22:26
For example, with, I don't know,
22:28
postnatal depression.
22:30
Mhmm. Some people will have a really hard
22:31
time for a few months with depression.
22:34
The only like, the the main
22:36
thing I'm I'm kind of pushing back against
22:38
is just like it's the
22:41
wrong order priorities
22:43
to tolerate an abusive relationship and take an
22:46
SSRI
22:47
I would argue it's the wrong order of
22:49
priorities
22:50
to tolerate an abusive home environment
22:53
and then drink a bottle of wine every
22:55
night. Whether it's self medication or prescribed medication,
22:58
I would argue that to kind of stay
23:00
in the toxic environment
23:03
and then to either medicate or self medicate,
23:05
you know, that's the long way around
23:07
to to extricate yourself from the environment and
23:10
then to neither need medication nor self medication.
23:13
That just strikes me where where it's possible
23:16
to to be just the preferable alternative.
23:19
Extrication
23:20
is often a good way to do things.
23:22
If you're the parent
23:23
of a child who has an extremely
23:26
strong energetic or aggressive impulse system
23:30
or, you know, learning problems or whatever the
23:32
hell it is or beats up on his
23:33
brother or sister, then
23:35
extricating may not be possible.
23:37
So, like, there's all kinds of subtleties here.
23:39
I think you are kinda trying to override
23:41
by saying there is a good hierarchy. There
23:43
is a best hierarchy of approaches. Right. It's
23:46
in some circumstances, yes. And others, no. And
23:49
others, it's just it's not worth the cost.
23:52
Right.
23:53
Okay.
23:54
And the cost could be ineffectiveness,
23:57
simply ineffectiveness
23:59
that you can't you can't get what you
24:01
need to get from,
24:03
you know, mindfulness meditation is terrific. It might
24:05
take 2 or 3 years to hit though.
24:07
You know? Mhmm.
24:08
Yep. Like that. Yeah.
24:10
I
24:11
I I get it. As much as I
24:13
wish for there to be a solution for
24:15
literally every social problem
24:17
that exists. There is no solution to every
24:20
social problem. And I enjoy your idealism. I
24:23
think I can call it idealism. That's not
24:24
an insulting thing to say.
24:27
It is idealism, but it's great, and it's
24:29
it's something to strive for. Mhmm. Right? It's
24:32
something to to go after.
24:34
It points in a direction.
24:36
But with respect to addiction, we can, you
24:38
know, use this kind of thinking to
24:41
talk as we were about, you know, is
24:43
it ever
24:44
okay to deal with the problem by dousing
24:47
it with a mood enhancing or mood correcting
24:49
substance? I mean, I think that's the question.
24:51
I I I think the answer is yes.
24:53
I actually think the answer is yes. Like
24:54
I said, I'm not a prohibitionist. I I
24:56
I think the answer is yes. I just
24:58
worry when people do it instead of standing
25:01
up to their toxic
25:03
parents' partner So do I. Etcetera. I think
25:06
we can agree on that. I think there
25:07
are disadvantages
25:09
and those disadvantages
25:10
are worrisome. They can be, you know, serious
25:13
consequences that we need to think about. And
25:15
when you're using substances, there's all kinds of
25:17
disadvantages that can, you know, creep in or
25:20
plunge in,
25:21
and that's part of the equation. That's part
25:23
of the cost benefit, you know, analysis. When
25:26
you talk about, you know, whether it's an
25:27
ideal
25:28
formula for that person, even that starts to
25:31
break down because it might be an ideal
25:32
formula for Tuesday but not for Thursday.
25:35
And that's a real thing. That's not just
25:36
wordplay
25:37
because
25:39
we are always developing and changing and so
25:41
is the context around us.
25:43
So
25:45
I don't think the I'd notion of an
25:48
ideals
25:49
ideally suitable solution
25:51
actually works over time, which means that it
25:54
doesn't work because time is always there. So
25:57
we've kind of talked about how because addiction
26:00
so often follows
26:02
from shame
26:03
and from trauma,
26:05
love and acceptance
26:07
and forgiveness
26:09
are more apt
26:10
for the so called addict
26:13
than shaming and criticism and nitpicking and so
26:16
on.
26:17
In your experience clinically or in your research,
26:21
have you encountered any views on the uselessness
26:24
of willpower?
26:25
You know, as a means to quit.
26:29
Yeah. A lot actually.
26:31
The whole area of behavioral economics,
26:34
which is the idea that
26:37
willpower
26:39
works differently,
26:40
in different,
26:42
again,
26:42
context, in terms of time frames, and in
26:45
terms of the values of the rewards.
26:48
So for example, if you put meth addicts
26:51
in
26:52
the study, this is called contingency management studies.
26:55
They'll they'll take mathematics,
26:57
put them in a place that where they,
26:58
of course, have to agree to the research
27:00
and say, okay. We're gonna give you're gonna
27:02
play a computer game every day for an
27:04
hour or 2 and you're gonna be
27:06
offered financial rewards, monetary rewards versus meth rewards.
27:10
You will get the drug at the end
27:11
of the 3 weeks or you will get
27:12
the monetary rewards at the end of the
27:14
3 weeks. Which would you choose for each
27:16
trial?
27:17
And the way
27:19
and
27:20
even meth addicts
27:21
will choose the monetary rewards if they are
27:24
big enough compared to the meth rewards. Mhmm.
27:27
So they can make that choice, which means
27:29
that they are actually
27:30
inhibiting their their desire, their wish for this
27:33
craving,
27:34
I suppose, for a certain amount of drug,
27:37
in favor of certain amount of financial payoff.
27:39
Mhmm. So there you're using willpower.
27:41
Okay. Okay. So that's one thing.
27:43
The Uber driver on the way over, I
27:45
told you that we were trying to get
27:46
into an argument
27:48
and it just wasn't going anywhere and he
27:50
kept repeating himself and it was like ridiculous.
27:53
And as you said to me, you picked
27:55
your battles.
27:56
So I gave up. I I said, let's
27:57
just drop it. Yeah. You're picking your battles
28:00
is also willpower.
28:02
Okay. Willpower is complex.
28:04
Willpower, you know, you you can
28:06
you can manifest a certain amount of willpower
28:08
because it's necessary,
28:10
you know,
28:12
to withhold what you wanna say about someone
28:14
who really bugs your ass whether it's, you
28:17
know, an ex wife or husband or something
28:19
like that because it's best for the kids.
28:22
I mean, there's so many conflicts with it.
28:24
Willpower comes into the equation. It's not all
28:27
or nothing.
28:28
It just isn't. And I think with addiction,
28:30
that's a really meaningful
28:32
complexity.
28:33
Right.
28:34
So, Mark, thank you for coming on the
28:36
show. It's been a great conversation. Mhmm. It
28:38
has. And I'm sure there's more that you
28:40
can share with our listeners, that they know
28:42
where to find you.
28:43
So if they wanna learn more about your
28:45
thoughts, your ideas, your clinical work, or your
28:47
research, where should they go?
28:49
So I've got 2 published books on addiction.
28:52
One is called Memoirs of an Addicted Brain,
28:54
which is a story of my own addiction,
28:57
during my twenties especially. But throwing in a
29:00
fair bit of neuroscience,
29:01
very friendly, not challenging. You don't have to
29:04
be a scientist to get it Yep. Into
29:05
the story. That's one book. The other book
29:07
is called The Biology of Desire, which I
29:09
think you have a copy of here,
29:12
which also builds on narratives. The
29:14
5 people that I've gotten to know who
29:16
had really serious addiction problems and how they
29:18
dealt with them, how they got through with
29:20
them, and
29:21
how different psychological factors including willpower that we
29:24
talked about, but also many others as well,
29:27
could be helpful or not helpful
29:29
in in in their experience.
29:32
So that's one way in my books. I
29:34
do have a website. I still do about
29:36
3, 4, 5, 6 podcasts a year. Probably
29:39
be doing more soon because I will have
29:41
a new book coming out as soon as
29:43
I write it, and I don't even know
29:44
what the title is yet, so I'm not
29:46
gonna go there.
29:48
But my website is if you Google my
29:50
name, Mark Lewis, Mark with a c l
29:53
e w I s, and put in addiction
29:55
or understanding
29:56
addiction, you'll get to my website.
29:58
And there are talks, articles, books,
30:02
interviews, podcasts, and
30:05
many things, including a video of my interaction
30:08
with a I was privileged to connect with
30:10
the Dalai Lama a few years ago
30:12
with a bunch of other scientists who talked
30:14
about addiction for a week. So that was
30:16
pretty interesting. There's a lot of cool stuff
30:18
on that website.
30:19
So that's sort of the place you can
30:20
go.
30:21
And I do work as a clinical psychologist
30:23
in Toronto.
30:25
I guess you'll find me on the web.
30:27
We'll include links in the show notes, and,
30:30
if you have any updates, we'll just update
30:32
our show notes once you have a new
30:33
website. Thank you. You're welcome. Again, thanks for
30:36
coming on board and, this has been how
30:39
to be an adult, a production at the
30:40
Morphis Clinic for hypnosis. If you wanna reach
30:43
out to us for hypnotherapy, you can go
30:44
to morphusclinic.com.
30:46
Thank you.