Latest / Our Pandora's Box / Can We Still Have Good Sex When the World Feels Terrible? with Dr. Laurie Mintz

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Can We Still Have Good Sex When the World Feels Terrible? with Dr. Laurie Mintz · Our Pandora's Box

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According to the National Sexual Violence Research Center, one in five women have
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experienced rape in their lifetimes.
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One in four female undergrads have been sexually assaulted at 33 of the US's major
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universities in a study, including Stanford, Harvard, UCLA, the University of Iowa,
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and Cornell. And only 2 to 10% of rapes that are reported are fake.
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This episode was supposed to be just about sexual pleasure.
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But with the trial of the Cornell Seven in our midst right now, I found it
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impossible to ignore this issue when talking about sex.
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I was gonna frame this conversation in terms of general pressures that women face
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right now that are the breaks in sex, as sex educator Emily Nagoski would say.
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You know, all the political and economic factors that we're dealing with at the
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moment that make it so hard to slip into our
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erotic selves.
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But this case has made talking about the prevalence of rape unavoidable, especially
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when it comes to the environment that's made it permissible.
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Women's actions are always scrutinized when we get sexually harassed, let alone
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assaulted, including by ourselves, because we expect that other people will do that
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to us, and that is happening right now.
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What isn't being scrutinized are the actions of the perpetrators or the environment
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that led them to think that typing in a group chat, "Free pussy" and "Shop still
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open," let alone raping and drugging their fellow classmate, was acceptable.
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I'm not just talking about the frat environment.
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I'm talking about the environments that the perpetrators were raised in.
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How did their parents and families raise them that when they came to that moment at
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that frat and
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on that group text, they thought that rape was okay?
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What were they taught in their communities and schools?
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You might say it wasn't the environments they were raised in, but social media and
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general culture.
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But I don't think that's the answer for why they thought it was okay to use their
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fellow student like a warm sex doll.
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My hope with the Cornell Seven case is that there will be real consequences for the
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men that did this.
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But I also hope that this case will lead us to examine as a country what we are
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teaching our boys, not just about consent, but about boys' and men's role in
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creating safe environments and about doing the right thing.
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Because, you know, the thing is, I believe in the inherent goodness of men.
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I believe they have a capacity for being just, for
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being strong leaders in their families and communities, for being generous lovers
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and friends.
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I've known so many that have been that, and I believe that men have the capacity
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also for being the partners that we need.
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But I also know that men and women are capable of evil, of unspeakable cruelties, of
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dehumanizing others, of violence.
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I am profoundly disappointed and disgusted right now.
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As a society, we should teach our boys better.
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We are failing women and we are failing men when we allow rape culture to be the
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status quo.
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And we are failing because of what we teach and allow away as evidence at the
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highest level in this country where men who have violated women and have used force
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on others to get their way are in charge.
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To all of
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them, I say, "You're a human, not an animal.
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And the difference between humans and animals is that we have reason, and we have
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morals and ethics, and we do the right thing even when our instincts say that we
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should do something that only benefits us, especially if it means using our own
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power in order to subjugate others. So do better."
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If you're new here, hi.
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I'm Maria Eliades.
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I'm the host of Our Pandora's Box and your disgruntled and angry millennial elder
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sister.
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On this show, we tackle some of the biggest issues going on right now with
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conversations with experts with curiosity and hope, even in the darkest of times.
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I've been thinking about this episode's particular topic a lot.
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For a while now, it's felt impossible to cultivate eroticism in this environment.
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But I think pleasure is essential to ourselves as whole human beings,
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as does my guest, Dr. Laurie Mintz. Dr.
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Mintz is a sex psychologist, author, therapist, and former professor whose life
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mission has been to help people have more sexually fulfilling lives.
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She popularized the phrase, "orgasm gap," so thank you, Dr.
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Mintz, for doing that, and she's published two books with one more along the way.
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If you wanna learn how to have better sex, especially in this environment, if you
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wanna learn about different types of desire, and if you wanna learn about what to do
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if you've lost your libido, then this episode is for you.
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On that note, let's get into it.
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Dr.
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Laurie Mintz, I am so excited to have you today on Our Pandora's Box to have this
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conversation about cultivating an erotic life. So welcome.
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Thank you. Thank you for having me.
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So I always start off the podcast by asking my guests, how they would describe
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themselves in their 20s. But I'm also gonna add on for you
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the question of how would you describe yourself in your 20s, and what do you wish
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you knew then about sex and desire?
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Oh, what a fabulous question. it's so funny that you ask about my 20s.
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I was literally...
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I'm 66, and I was literally just texting with my college friends trying to arrange a
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party for our college reunion.
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So I was literally just texting with people who knew me in my 20s.
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I would say I was very similar to how I am now, but just not as confident with it,
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to be honest with you.
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know, I still have very similar interests in terms of psychology, in terms of,
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people, in terms of therapy, in terms of science and...
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But I was just not, I mean, as many 20-year-olds are compared to our later selves, I
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wasn't as sure of myself.
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I was insecure, I would say, and sort of
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anxious about who I was instead of like, "This is who I am.
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Take it or leave it," kind of thing.
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Do you remember a moment where you became more confident?
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I think it, no, I don't think it was one moment at all.
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I think it was just like a series of, um, moments, a series of connections with
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others that I always think we grow best in relation.
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You know, that whole idea like we have to be by ourselves to grow.
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Sure, some of us grow alone, but we know from the research that most of us grow in
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relation.
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We get feedback. So I think it was that. I think it was some career successes.
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I also think it was falling down and having some things that didn't go the way I
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wanted them to go,
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that I then picked myself up from.
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But I'd say it's just been a gradual change over time. don't...
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You're not really asking this question, but it makes me
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really pause.
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I remember at one point, I have two daughters, they're adults, they're not even in
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their 20s, they're in their 30s,
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Okay.
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And I remember when one of them was 13 and I remember feeling like, "Oh my gosh, I
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guess I'm really an adult."
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And I was like, "Are you kidding me?
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I have to have a 13-year-old daughter to feel like I'm an adult?" Like, it just, you
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know, it's kind of a process that sneaks up on you, you know, becoming more
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confident and more adult, basically.
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I know you used to teach undergrads, speaking of, of younger people, at the
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University of Florida.
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What did you see when you were teaching your courses there that the students had as
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concerns that surprised you?
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And what did you see that actually gave you a lot of hope for them?
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Well, I love teaching undergrads, you know.
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Honestly, I taught undergrads and grad students.
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And nothing against the grad students, but the undergrads were definitely more fun
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for me.
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they were
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open to new information. They were curious about new information.
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They were, like, having these a-ha moments about the world, about their identity,
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about their place in the world, about maybe how they could make the world a better
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place.
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so I just loved teaching undergrads.
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what surprised me was what led me to write my book, Becoming Cliterate.
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When I was teaching the psychology of human sexuality, it was about,2015 I would
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guess 'cause the book came out in 2017, and I discovered that the young women in the
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class didn't know about their clitoris.
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I was shocked. Shocked. Like, like they re-
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existed?
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Some of them didn't know it existed.
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Okay.
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Of knew it existed and had heard of it, but didn't make a connection to their lack
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of attending to it being the reason they weren't having orgasms during
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heterosexual sex. it was just like this dearth of knowledge
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Well, I mean, science didn't, "discover it" until, what, sometime in the '90s as a
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sexual organ?
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I don't think
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Honestly, no. Science discovered it... No, it was
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Yeah.
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No,
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earlier. much earlier.
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It
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was discovered, it was discovered in, like, the 1700s, then the discovery was
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buried,
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it was rediscovered, then it was buried.
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There's, like, been this whole history of discovery and burying.
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But in terms of what you're thinking of, what you're thinking of is Dr.
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Helen O'Connell, She was the first i- to use MRI technology to uncover the full,
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organ basically.
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was in the '90s.
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And actually just, like, a month ago, the full extent of the clitoral nerves were
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revealed for the first time, 30 years after those of the penis were revealed.
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So we've known about it.
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We buried it. We've known about it and buried it.
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But there have been some big discoveries around it that have been popularized since
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the '90s.
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And then when we're talking about the full nerve endings and the full body of it,
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what does that look like?
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So people often think of the clitoris as just a little nub, the hood and the glans
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that you can see on the vulva.
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But the entire clitoris, it's analogous to the penis where, you know, they're the
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same organs in embryo, right?
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And it is this massive internal organ with an enormous amount of erectile tissue.
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if you think of the clitoris as like this little circle, right, that you can see on
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the vulva. But the whole thing, there's a buried part above it and below it.
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It has kind of two legs that go out and some big bulbs that surround the vaginal
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canal. So it's a massive internal organ with, it's chock-full of
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erectile tissue.
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And that behaves similarly to the penile erectile tissue or differently?
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Exactly the same. An erection is an erection.
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There was a really interesting study where women and men were asked to write about
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what an orgasm felt like, And then the researchers took away the, um, any indication
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of who wrote it, and then they gave these paragraphs to sexual, medicine physicians,
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to sex therapists, and no one could describe the difference.
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Everybody described a buildup of tension and a release of the tension.
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So whether you have a penis or a clitoris, your blood in your erectile tissue in
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either the penis or the clitoris gets engorged with blood.
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The blood stays there, builds up to a point of intensity, and is then released with
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a series of contractions of the pelvic floor muscles.
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So you wrote that book in order to get women to understand how to have orgasms,
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right? And to, to know their clitoris?
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I wrote the book to close the orgasm gap, which is the consistent finding over 30
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years of research that when cisgender women or women and men get it on, the women
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are having fewer orgasms.
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So I wanted to expose the cultural problem, say why we have it, help to close it,
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and then importantly, to empower individual women to become familiar with their body
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and become empowered to orgasm in their own bedrooms.
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Do you find that what you put down in the book when you wrote it and what you've
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taught today to your clients, to the students you had, has it changed or are there
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the same gaps in knowledge?
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It's interesting.
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I think since I've written the book, more people have heard of the word orgasm
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gap. I'm credited with popularizing that term.
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I certainly wasn't the one who did the research.
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I really have to give credit to the many researchers who've uncovered the problem.
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and, what I would say now, because I've continued to teach and to give workshops, is
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people have now heard the word orgasm gap.
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Most women, I think many women know they have a clitoris.
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They know it's their main sexual organ, but what hasn't changed is how people are
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behaving in the bedroom.
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It's like knowledge has not translated into behavior.
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And I have a third book coming out in June 2027, so right around the corner,
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It's called Pursue Your Pleasure, and its aim is to close that knowledge behavior
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gap.
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Hmm. So what's happening?
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If, like, the knowledge is there, but the script isn't changing the bedroom.
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there's a disconnect there it sounds like.
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I think it's like this stuff's so
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deeply ingrained in the very fabric of culture.
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And sex education hasn't changed, right? We still don't have good sex education.
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Porn hasn't changed.
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Porn is still, showing women orgasming, if they orgasm at all, through penetration.
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Movies hasn't changed.
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So it's really only people who take a class, who follow certain people on social
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media.
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And even then, the script, as you called it, and that's what sexologist sciences-
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scientists call it, the script of what we're supposed to do in the bedroom hasn't
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changed either.
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Hmm.
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This is somewhat linked to the,thing that I wanted to talk about today, which is
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about, diminished desire and about libido and eroticism in, in our lives right now,
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where have all these scripts.
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We also have an environment that feels particularly hostile to desire showing up in
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it. There's a lot of economic
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tension, political tension, not to mention the danger of having sex for heterosexual
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women with 13 states having a near or total abortion ban.
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So how is it possible to cultivate eroticism in a time like this?
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Because I know you think it's essential, that libido is essential to
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existing.
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Look, there's people who don't have a good sex life, and they're still, have a okay,
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good life. Maybe even they'd say a great life.
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But what we know from the research, and I'm really big into looking at the research
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and seeing what that says and seeing and translating it, the research really shows
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that a good sex life correlates with life satisfaction, with self-esteem, with
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relationship satisfaction.
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So yeah, I think that cultivating a good sex life is a really essential part of
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life and it's one we don't get schooled on or talked about enough, but, you know,
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when someone has a sexual problem, it's devastating often.
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Takes up a lot of brain space, a lot of energy space.
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But I think your point is really accurate.
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This is a really difficult point in history for a lot of reasons, and it's a really
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difficult point in history for women, and for women to feel safe enough to be
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sexual. We've got rape culture all around us.
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You know, we're having this podcast right when the Cornell Seven is being talked
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about and being exposed, not just the seven, the 50 some who did nothing.
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You know, we have a sex offender in the White House.
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I'm gonna get political here, you know?
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That's
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got rape-
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does. Get
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political.
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Okay.
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political
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I mean, we have rape culture all around us,
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and at the same time,we have fewer rights. We have lack of access to abortion.
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There's more women who've been prosecuted for having an abortion than men who've
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been prosecuted for the Epstein files.
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Like, we live in a very, an environment right now that is really hostile to women.
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And even if you're an individual woman who's not personally affected by this, say
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you're a privileged woman past childbearing age, like, y- y- you cannot escape the
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fact that this is happening around you.
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And then take the people that it's really affecting, you know?
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So we have this environment, as you've described even more so than I did, even more
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graphically. So How do we keep it for ourselves when it is...
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It's important, as you've said.
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Yeah. Well, I think that you just, spoke the core of the issue,
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that this is important for us.
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Some people have said, and I agree with them, that pleasure is a political act.
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If you can feel pleasure in your body when your body is a hated object, if you can
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feel pleasure amidst the pain, like that is a rebellion.
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That is a political act, and it doesn't mean you have to have sex with a man.
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You can get yourself a vibrator and give yourself lots of orgasms. You can do both.
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This is not mutually exclusive.
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But I do think that pleasure is important to life and especially if you're a
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political activist, it doesn't mean that you can't have time off for pleasure 'cause
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that's gonna sustain and fuel you.
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Yeah, I mean, if anything, as a political activist, you absolutely need the things
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that sustain you and fuel you. You will burn out.
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I mean, it's a common thing in nonprofits.
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You will burn out if you do not take time for yourself.
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Absolutely. Absolutely.
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What about in this environment? I mean, there's different ways of desire, right?
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There's responsive desire, there's spontaneous desire.
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Can we talk about that a little bit?
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Yeah. and that has been going on...that exists beyond politics, okay?
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That exists just in general.
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But the shame of it is people don't know about responsive desire.
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So spontaneous desire is what's portrayed in the movies, right?
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Along with many other falsehoods.
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And it is when you see someone or something, you know, an object of desire or
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something, and you're just immediately turned on and horny, and you wanna have sex.
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And there's nothing wrong with that, and that is accurate, but it is a very male
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model, and it is a model of one's youth, and especially early stage relationships.
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Not just youth, an older person in a new relationship. When we're in a new
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relationship, we have all these biochemical things going on in our body.
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Some people say it's almost like OCD.
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You can't stop thinking about the person, you can't get enough of them, you know,
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constantly horny. And it's a great stage.
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It's called the limerence phase, and it's, it's glorious.
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But it only lasts six months to two years, and then those biochemicals just kind of
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like, you know, they get cozy and they fade off, right?
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And, like, picture this.
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You picture that, like, stereotypical old couple sitting on a park bench holding
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hands or taking a walk holding hands. No one goes, "Oh my God, that's so cool.
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They're so horny all the time." No.
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You know, they say, "Oh, how cute, how wonderful, how loving."
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What that means is they are not still constantly horny in each other's presence, but
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that doesn't mean they can't have great sex.
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And how? They can do so
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with responsive desire.
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Responsive desire is the idea I want to have sex without being horny, but for a
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variety of reasons.
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There was another study where people were asked about why they had sex, and there
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were 237 unique reasons people listed, and that researchers broke them into
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categories: emotional closeness, you know, physical pleasure.
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And being horny was, like, number five on the list. It wasn't even number one.
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So responsive desire is when you're like, "Oh, I'm interested in sex.
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Maybe I know it'll be good when it gets going. I'll feel closer to my partner.
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I'll sleep better," whatever it is.
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And so then you have a sexual encounter, and the horniness comes after you're
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touched. So you have sex to get horny rather than wait to be horny to have sex.
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What if someone can't even get themselves to that point of the responsive
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desire, of being in that situation?
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Everything else crowds out that part of their life. What could they do?
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I think they need to prioritize that part of their life.
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That's a barrier to desire, and there's a million barriers.
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Money worries, political worries, depression, anxiety.
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There's a whole lot of reasons people have like this anti-desire thing.
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But the first step is deciding this is important to them.
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I mean, let's use the metaphor of the gym, 'cause it's an overused one because it
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works.Most people don't wake up in the morning going, "I can't wait to hit the gym."
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They go even when they feel like having an extra cup of coffee instead, or staying
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in bed another half hour.
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They go because they know that their life, their body, will feel better after.
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So that they do it based on a reason, and it's the same with
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this, of like reminding yourself of the benefits of sex.
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Reminding yourself an orgasm feels good. It releases tension. You'll sleep better.
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And using that reminder to motivate oneself to create a plan for sex, a plan for
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pleasure.
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And also maybe, depending what it is, addressing what's getting in their way.
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If it is a stressor in the family that can be addressed, address it with therapy.
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If it's depression, seek therapy. Seek medication.
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Like, let's look at what's preventing it first and then decide how to deal with
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that.
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I'm sure you deal with this in your practice, and I know you address it in your
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book, A Tired Woman's Guide to Sex.
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If you have one of these clients who is going through that and you're like, "Okay,
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there could be medical reasons why you're tired, you're not feeling this,"
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and they've started going to doctors to figure it out, but the doctors are being
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dismissive, how do you counsel and support someone through that?
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Well, it depends. Like, what kind of dismissive are we saying?
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Are we saying, "Your blood tests are normal"? That's,
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For
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that's
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tests are normal, or for some of our listeners who are older, "Oh no, you're too
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young to be in perimenopause, so this can't be what's being affected here."
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Yeah, get a new doctor.
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You know, this is part of the reason I stopped going to sex therapy conferences and
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started going to sexual medicine conferences, even though I'm not a doctor.
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So I can understand enough to say to a client, "I think you need a doctor who's got
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more specialized training.
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I think there is something medical going on, but they're not finding it.
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Let me help you find a new doctor."
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And before I say how to find a doctor for these things, let me tell you that the
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average woman who has sexual pain, it takes
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her 11 years to get the right diagnosis.
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Holy cow.
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It's way too long because very few doctors are trained in sexual pain, and that's a
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big one that gets dismissed still. Relax, have a glass of wine. No.
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Sexual pain is a medical issue.
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I can break sexual pain down and tell you there's, five general causes.
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But the bottom line is I cannot tell you how many clients have come to me for lack
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of orgasm, and they've been to, like, 10 sex therapists who've done the same thing,
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and no one has said, "Well, if these things aren't working, maybe there's something
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medical." Or a woman who's been treated for sexual pain by a therapist who've never
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sent her to a doctor when that's always the first step.
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Or someone who's in perimenopause who's been told, "You're too young." Or someone
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who's a cancer survivor being told, "You can't have vaginal estrogen," when a good,
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like, 98% of cancer survivors can
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have vaginal estrogen. I had a woman come to me.
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She'd been in the hospital multiple times for UTIs and sepsis because her oncologist
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refused vaginal estrogen.
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So I said, "You need a new oncologist and a new gynecologist who work together who
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are up on the latest research." So, that's what I tend to do, is I tend to help my
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clients find good medical care.
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And for women's sexual medicine and sexual health, the best place to go is the
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International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health, I-S-S-W-S-H, ISSWSH.
27:42
For menopause, the North American Menopause Society, which is now just going by the
27:48
name Menopause Society. They have a find a provider link.
27:53
Now, anyone can list there, so what you're looking for specifically there is a
28:00
NAMS certified provider that they've gone through specialized menopause training,
28:05
which includes perimenopause.
28:07
And for our younger listeners who might be dealing with pelvic pain of any sort,
28:12
where would you recommend that they go?
28:15
And can I first say what are the general causes of pelvic pain, if that would be
28:20
okay? So pelvic pain or sexual pain has several different causes.
28:25
One is simply if it's sexual pain, penetration-related pain, it's having penetration
28:30
before you're aroused enough for it and not using lube.
28:34
My book, Becoming Cliterate, it doesn't have the word pain in it, and there was a
28:40
randomized clinical trial on it. The women who read it had less pain Why?
28:45
Because I empowered women that just because he's hard and ready doesn't mean he gets
28:50
to come in.
28:51
I've empowered women to use lube to make sure that they're aroused.
28:56
So that's, that's probably the easiest cause to address,
29:00
right?
29:01
And if,if you can use a sex toy and penetrate yourself during masturbation when
29:06
you're really aroused and use lube, but are having pain with a partner, that gives
29:13
you a hint that you might not be allowing yourself that arousal.
29:17
That's number one. Number two is a pelvic floor dysfunction.
29:22
Remember I said that orgasm is the blood flowing into the erectile tissue being
29:28
released with pelvic floor contractions.
29:31
A pelvic floor that is too tight is gonna be a problem, and it can cause pain.
29:37
And for that, the best is a pelvic floor physical therapist, and the great place to
29:43
find those are Herman and Wallace.
29:46
They have a find a provider link. Another cause of pain is anxiety.
29:51
The vagina is a muscle. Or trauma.
29:53
Like, I know when I'm really anxious, I don't even realize I'm doing it, but my
30:00
daughters will go, "Mom, your, your shoulders are by your ears." You know, and the
30:05
vagina does the same thing, right?
30:08
It clamps like a muscle.
30:09
So if you've had trauma or you're anxious, your vagina's gonna clamp and nothing
30:15
will get in.
30:16
And then a really, really big cause, and this is the one that is where this woman's
30:22
taking 11 years, is an undiagnosed medical issue.
30:25
There are many, many medical issues that can cause sexual pain, pelvic pain, and
30:31
very few doctors are trained at assessing and diagnosing this.
30:35
And then the fifth cause is a proliferation of nerve endings.
30:40
The best way I can explain this is a way that a colleague of mine who specializes in
30:46
sexual pain explained this.
30:47
Do you ever notice, if you get, a paper cut, right, or a bruise, and even after it's
30:53
healed, it's a little tender to touch.
30:56
So what happens is when we get hurt, we have this
31:00
army come to the surface of the skin that sensitizes the nerves and says, "Stay away
31:06
from here.
31:07
Stay away from here." Well, sometimes if there's some kind of an injury, that army
31:13
sticks around, and you just end up with this proliferation of sensitive nerve
31:19
endings.
31:19
And there are treatments for that too.
31:22
So the best place to start is either a pelvic floor physical therapist or a sexual
31:28
medicine physician, and a good one of those will refer you to the other, and a good
31:34
one of those, if they find absolutely nothing and determine it's anxiety or trauma,
31:40
will also refer you to a sex therapist, but they're not mutually exclusive, right?
31:46
So the woman who has vaginismus-related trauma, right?
31:50
Yes, the pelvic floor physical therapist will teach her to relax her pelvic floor
31:56
while she's inserting gradually larger and
32:00
larger, objects, okay?
32:01
So that you're pairing relaxation and insertion, but you also have to talk about the
32:07
root of the trauma, right?
32:08
If it was, especially if it was a sexual trauma, then go to a trauma-informed
32:13
therapist.
32:14
or a sexual medicine provider might provide her with some kind of creams and
32:19
lotions.
32:20
So, we're a team working together, sex therapists, pelvic floor physical therapists,
32:26
and sexual medicine providers, and a good team will work with one another.
32:30
That's important because, uh, in these issues, especially if it's taking someone a
32:35
while to be diagnosed with this, it's very intimate, it's very sensitive, it can be
32:41
a lot to keep going up to bat for yourself, and definitely very difficult within a
32:46
committed relationship if that's the environment in which it's happening.
32:51
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.
32:53
I'm wondering also, I have, this'll be interesting, a listener question.
32:58
Because we haven't touched
33:00
actually what happens with eroticism during and after pregnancy, because this is
33:04
also something that our, our listeners, face.
33:07
And I have a related question from one of our listeners, so I'll play that if you're
33:12
up
33:12
for
33:14
Sure. Sure, sure.
33:15
Although I will say if it's medical, I can't answer. But if it's general, yes.
33:19
It's
33:21
So let's-
33:22
I
33:23
promise you it's
33:24
Okay. Okay. Good. Good
33:26
Let's see.
33:27
Hi, I'm Sherri from Brooklyn, and I have a two-part question.
33:30
I had a baby about a year ago.
33:32
While my sex drive was pretty high shortly after, lately it's dropped as the
33:36
realities of full-time work and parenting have taken over.
33:39
I'm a single mom by choice, so I'm not married, but I do have some consistent
33:44
friends with benefits of all genders.
33:46
Lately, though, I've been canceling on them because I'm just not in the mood.
33:50
So in addition to this, I find I'm vastly preferring BDSM relationships where
33:54
intercourse is off the table and the focus is on particular kinks only.
33:58
here come the question
34:00
parts. Um, first is, how does postpartum time affect sexuality?
34:04
And I want to find intercourse more appealing again.
34:07
How can I find a way to access that or at least better drop into erotic connection
34:13
and space with my partners? Thank you.
34:15
Okay, great questions. There's a lot of layers to that.
34:19
So let me first break some of them down, and also let me address something that she
34:24
did not address. She's farther out of postpartum. I think she said, like, a year-
34:30
year.
34:31
I think she's about a out.
34:33
So I don't know if she's breastfeeding or not, or if she did breastfeed, but
34:38
something that, a lot of people don't talk about enough is called the genitourinary
34:43
syndrome of lactation.
34:45
So just like the genitourinary syndrome of menopause, you have all this decreased
34:50
estrogen. It makes your vagina dry.
34:52
It makes intercourse painful. So how do we treat that?
34:56
Right, not me, my gynecological colleagues, they prescribe
35:00
vaginal estrogen or vaginal DHEA or moisturizers, lube, or all of this, right?
35:05
That happens when you're lactating as well.
35:09
I actually have a pretty new grandson, and I told my daughter, "If you start going
35:15
to have intercourse when they say you can and it hurts, don't think this is normal.
35:21
It is the genitourinary syndrome of lactation.
35:24
I want you to call your doctor and get some vaginal estrogen."
35:29
So she didn't talk about that, but I want listeners to know about that.
35:34
And what she's saying is, Like, what I wanna say to her is like, "Of course you
35:40
don't have energy for sex."
35:42
Like, you're a single mom of a one-year-old.
35:45
That's absolutely, positively exhausting. And that is, that's what we were ...
35:51
like the stuff we were talking about earlier. It's like energy draining.
35:57
You're not gonna be, like, interested in
36:00
sex, but it's a little bit like my going to the gym explanation, because she sounds
36:05
like when she gets the energy to do it and not cancel, especially if she's doing
36:11
BDSM and her preferred activity, she has a good time.
36:15
So to that part of it, I would say, use that responsive desire.
36:19
Tell yourself, "I'm really feeling too tired.
36:23
I'm not spontaneously horny, but I know I'm gonna have a really good time when I get
36:29
there, so I'm gonna go." And then, this answer might surprise you.
36:33
I'd like to have a conversation with her, which is not possible right now, 'cause
36:39
you just played a recording and I'm answering the recording.
36:44
But my first question for her, if she was my client, would be, "So if you're
36:49
enjoying these non-penetrative activities, if you're enjoying these activities the
36:55
way they are, like, why do you wanna get back to the penetrative
37:00
ones? Like, help me understand why.
37:02
If something's working, you wanna get back to something else.
37:06
Like, I wanna understand that more before I can answer that.
37:11
You know, is it a certain type of intimacy she's missing?
37:15
Why is penetration not interesting? Is it painful?
37:18
Or maybe she's just getting to know her own body enough to know, like many women,
37:24
most women don't find penetration all that exciting sexually.
37:28
Like, I'm not saying it's not fun, I'm not saying it's not connecting.
37:33
So I'd wanna have more of a conversation around that one before I tell her how to
37:39
get back to it.
37:40
I wanna know more about why she wants to get back to it and why not just accept
37:46
what's, you know, what's fun now.
37:48
And she probably has a great answer, but since I can't talk to her, I can't tailor
37:54
my answer to her question.
37:56
Yeah. And I don't know what the answer, what her
38:00
answer would be to it, but say take your average client, I feel like there's no such
38:05
average, but say if someone said, "You know, I want penetrative intercourse again
38:11
because it makes me feel closer to my partners," or, "This is what I used to really
38:17
enjoy," what would you say to that?
38:19
If it was it makes me feel closer to my partners, I'd say, "Okay, tell me about
38:25
that.
38:26
You know, and is your partner really wanting this?" And, you know, and if she said,
38:32
"Yes, he really does, and I really want this," I'd say, "Well, what's getting in
38:37
your way?" Like, if it was pain, we'd need to address the pain, and a big portion of
38:43
the time it's gonna be that, right?
38:45
And then I, I'd also say why not pair what's enjoyable with penetration, you know?
38:51
It's not either or, it can be and both,
38:53
Yeah
38:55
I mean, I don't quite understand that for her, and I want to. If it was just
39:00
because she wants to enjoy what she used to enjoy, but she's enjoying something else
39:05
now, I'd say, you know, "I used to like shrimp, and then I had a bad shrimp, and I
39:10
got nauseous and now I can't eat shrimp, and I'm not forcing myself to do it.
39:15
I'm just accepting where I am now.
39:17
Maybe I'll like shrimp again, but it's okay to not like it for a while." Like, I'd
39:23
also want some acceptance going on, too.
39:25
Because I think we have, along with these scripts of the expectation that we'll
39:31
enjoy the same things for our whole lives, and perhaps that isn't realistic.
39:35
Not at all.
39:37
Not at all.
39:38
And in fact, there's a great book called Magnificent Sex by Peggy Kleinpetz.
39:43
Peggy is a brilliant researcher from Canada, and Peggy got really sick of people
39:48
studying people with sexual problems.
39:50
And she said, "I wanna study people who have great sex."
39:54
Love it.
39:55
So she did all these interviews of people who identified as having magnificent sex.
40:00
And most ... You're gonna just fall off your chair, I think.
40:03
The most magnificent sex started at around age 50.
40:07
That gives me so much hope.
40:08
That's
40:10
Yes!
40:11
exciting. If the most, the best sex is at, starting at 50,
40:15
Yeah, for women especially.
40:16
Why? Because they were n't following these scripts.
40:20
They were okay with saying, "This is what I like.
40:23
This is what I don't like." They knew sex was bigger than penetration.
40:27
But I always tell women, you don't have to wait till you're 50.
40:31
Like, you can use all those lessons today.
40:34
Yeah, it's...
40:35
Again, I'm like getting stuck on the scripts right now because I think there's just
40:40
so much out there of telling us how sex should look like, how it should feel like,
40:46
and we're all so different that it can be all of these different things.
40:50
And especially, you know, you brought up women who have pelvic pain, and something
40:55
that people learn when they have issues with penetration because it's
41:00
suddenly painful, is looking at, well, what else is on the sexual menu?
41:05
Right.
41:06
And for the, those listeners who don't know this, the word sexual scripts is, like,
41:12
in the, the sex literature, and what it often refers to is the way we're told sex
41:19
should be in the movies.
41:21
Foreplay just to get her ready for penetration, penetration, male orgasm, idealized
41:27
female orgasm, sex over.
41:29
And it's a very male-oriented script. Even the words, right?
41:33
Using sex and intercourse as if they're one in the same, using foreplay for, ah,
41:40
whatever comes before it.
41:42
You know, and that's a real over-linguistic reflection and perpetuation of our
41:48
overvaluing of male pleasure.
41:50
If we overvalue female pleasure the way we overvalue male pleasure, we would call
41:56
foreplay sex and intercourse post-play.
42:00
Now, I'm not suggesting we do that, but I am suggesting that the whole menu is sex,
42:06
and then there's specific acts within them.
42:10
And while we're at it, let's stop calling our entire genitals a vagina, because we
42:16
are linguistically erasing the part of ourselves that gives us the most pleasure and
42:23
calling our genitals by the part that's most useful to men rather than women
42:29
themselves.
42:30
100%. Language matters.
42:32
Yeah, very much so. Very much so.
42:35
Very much matters.
42:36
I'm wondering, since we are, we are talking a lot about, cisgendered women who are
42:43
heterosexual, what do you think that men who have sex with those women need to know
42:49
in order for there to be eroticism in their shared lives?
42:54
Ask. Say these words, okay? "Your pleasure is just as important to me
43:00
as mine. I'd like to know what is going to make you feel the most pleasure.
43:05
I'd like to know what you need for orgasm." Ask, because every woman is different.
43:11
And also, don't be threatened by vibrators. Here's the deal with vibrators.
43:16
They are not a dick substitute. They are not addictive. They are not a partner.
43:21
They don't kiss, they don't cuddle, they don't say I love you.
43:26
They don't do anything except stimulate the genitals in a way that genitals find
43:31
really stimulating.
43:32
We have special receptors on our genitals just for vibration, which is why they
43:38
work.
43:39
And there was a study of men who had never used a vibrator before, and they were
43:44
given one to use twice a week for three months, and then they were interviewed and
43:50
they said, "Wow, it made sex more exciting because my partner was excited, and I
43:56
find that exciting. It made it more exciting because it was novel.
44:00
It made it more intimate because we had to talk about it." And guess what?
44:06
When they caught the vicarious vibrations, like the feeling of vibrations, they're
44:11
like, "Wow, that feels good." Of course it does, because penises and clitorises are,
44:17
are twin organs, you know? They have the same receptors.
44:21
That's why we're starting to use vibrators for erectile dysfunction treatment.
44:27
So a vibrator is your friend, your ally in the bedroom, not your threat.
44:32
I'm wondering what else you think that women actually need to know about themselves
44:37
in order to enjoy sex.
44:39
Well, first we've covered a lot, but the other thing I would talk about is
44:44
absorption or mindfulness.
44:46
Like it is impossible to have an orgasm, it's impossible to have pleasure if you're
44:52
up in your head worrying, "How do I look? How do I smell?
44:56
You know, are they having fun? Oops, I forgot that
45:00
email to return."
45:01
And that's just so common for women.
45:03
And the antidote for that is learning mindfulness in daily life through meditation,
45:09
through yoga. And what is mindfulness?
45:12
It is when your mind wanders, and it does, that's what our minds do, bring it back
45:18
to sensation without telling yourself a story, without getting stuck on it, and
45:24
practicing that in daily life.
45:26
The next time you're brushing your teeth, really focus on the smell, the taste, the
45:32
sensations.
45:33
And when your mind wanders, bring it back to sensation over and over again, and then
45:39
practice that in the bedroom.
45:41
You've had so many wonderful recommendations throughout our interview,
45:46
So glad
45:47
so many.
45:48
But I always close out by asking my guest what else they think, in this case, what
45:53
do you recommend that women either read, watch, listen to, or do to cultivate their
45:59
erotic
46:00
lives?
46:01
Well, I'm gonna not go with my own book
46:04
but people
46:05
or...
46:06
anyway. They're very
46:08
good
46:09
But yes,
46:10
thank you. I, I highly recommend them.
46:13
one, when it comes out in June.
46:15
What I'm gonna recommend is related to what's in this book.
46:20
It's called Pursue Your Pleasure, and it's available now for pre-order.
46:25
And it's not just sex self-help.
46:27
There's erotic fiction and erotica woven throughout.
46:31
Real-life erotic stories.
46:33
And why I include that is it makes it more fun to read, and there's a lot of
46:39
research that women are very turned on by reading.
46:43
That's why, erotic fiction and smut are having their day.
46:47
That's why the apps like Quinn, which give audio erotica, are having their day.
46:53
It's almost impossible not to become aroused reading or listening to erotica, and
46:58
you can find things in
47:00
that genre that are not,anti-women, that are not violent. So I'd say have some fun.
47:06
Read and listen to some erotica.
47:08
Awesome. Well, Dr. Mintz, thank you so much for coming on.
47:12
I really appreciated this whole conversation, and I think it'll be very helpful to
47:18
the listeners.
47:19
I'm so glad. Thank you for having me. I appreciate your work
47:24
My pleasure.
47:25
I hope you all got some ideas about how to create some space for eroticism in your
47:31
life through our conversation.
47:33
But I also hope that this episode made you feel like you're not alone.
47:39
To me, sexual pleasure is sacred.
47:41
It's a bodily ecstasy that we get to share and co-create with others, but also that
47:47
we get to create for ourselves.
47:50
I hope you know now that having challenges with your sex life is normal, but pain is
47:56
not.
47:57
So be kind to yourself and be open to discovering or rediscovering what good
48:02
pleasure means for you. And thank you again for listening to this episode.
48:07
If you like what you heard, let us know.
48:10
Rate and leave a comment about Our Pandora's Box on your favorite podcast platform
48:16
and share it with your friends.
48:19
Our Pandora's Box is a Pentelic Productions podcast that was created, hosted,
48:24
produced, and edited by yours truly, Maria Eliades.
48:28
Remember to stay hopeful and stay curious.
48:31
I'll see you soon on the next Our Pandora's Box.