Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / The Backpacker Murders - Ivan Milat

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The Backpacker Murders - Ivan Milat · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: It takes a shocking event to inspire a film, but
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened in the case of the Backpacker murders.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: This high profile case struck fear into the hearts of
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: all of Australia when several hitchhikers mysteriously disappeared, and mind you,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: hitchhiking was still widely considered safe at this time. The
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: terror surrounding the case eventually inspired the film Wolf Creek,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: but the real life horror came from the name behind
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: it all. This is the story of Ivan Milat and
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: the Backpacker Murders.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: and Grim, a true crime podcast.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: The following podcast and material for a mature audience.
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: Listen.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: I have had this case on my list for a
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: long time, have you I have. I've done research over
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: and over and over again for it, and then i
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: found myself being like, I'm too far down a rabbit hole,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: and I've got like a day to get a podcast together,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: So then I swap out and do a different case
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: and put this one on the back burner, sort of say,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: and here we are finally awesome. I'd probably put this
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: one on the back burner. I bet you about a
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: dozen times.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Really, Okay, yes, so this is gonna be good.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Then this is quite the ride. Hm, it's quite the ride.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Like I said, it actually inspired the movie, the horror
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: movie Wolf Creek.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, I don't think I've seen that movie. I don't
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: think so.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Well, it is honor.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: We will have to watch it tonight.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: It is on our list today for Patreon, so you
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: are going to be watching it if you don't know.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: We are doing a countdown of thirty one Halloween movies,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: so a movie per day all through October. We've been
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: posting each day a new movie to check out over
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: on Patreon, and the movie Wolf Creek is today's.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Movie on Patreon. Yeah, yeah, right on which.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Speaking of Patreon, we should actually thank our patrons who
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: signed up this week.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a couple we did.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: We have Macy Smith and McKenna Anderson. Thank you so
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: much for doing us from Patreon.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: We have something else to talk about. What do we do? Yesterday?
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Oh? I was like, we do? What the heck elks
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: do you have to talk about? We did our annual
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Halloween photo shoot. We did Yeah, and it went quite well.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: It did. We actually involved the dogs and they relatively
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: behave themselves.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Well, Honey did far better than Ripley.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Ripley was. Ripley doesn't like to listen. She doesn't
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: like to do what she's told. She doesn't like to
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: if you have a treat in your hand or something,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: she is the goodest girl. But if you just tell
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: her to do something, she's like.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: No, she's just busy, and she just likes to explore everything.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: And if you get in the way of that, like,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: fuck off.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Basically pretty much that is the definition of huskies right there.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: If you're in the way of them, fuck off. But yeah,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: I went good. So we are gonna be posting the
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: photos pretty soon over on Instagram, Facebook and our socials,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: so you can go check those out because we do
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: an annual one every year. Last year, Nicole, you killed me.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: As a son, I did. Yeah, that one is for
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: the books. This one's a bit more chill. It's a
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: bit more chill, I would say. This year. Oh, it's
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: definitely really awesome.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Well, in the year before that, we did like face
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: painted skeletons and stuff and got like all.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: No, I don't I think, Oh, was that or when
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: did we do the pumpkin I think that was the
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: year before Okay, now I'm not sure anyway, and ghosts.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: And ghosts, Yeah, but we we do Halloween shoot every year,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: so this year, yeah, we went all that last year,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: so we went a little bit more relaxed this year.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Just fun and comfy.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was fun.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: It was so that. Yeah, like I said, I digress.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Those ann be coming out soon, but I think we
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: should get to this case. What do you think? Yeah, okay,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: talk for a minute, tho, because I got to get
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: a sip of.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Cock for I was going to ask you. Do you
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  Speaker 2: think that we're ever going to run out of ideas
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  Speaker 2: for these photo shoots? Oh?
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  Speaker 1: Yes? Probably?
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: Oh really Okay, I thought for sure you'd be like, no, no,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: I got like ten my back pocket here.
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  Speaker 1: But I'm already at loss for what to do next year.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: But we'll figure it out.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: You haven't even thought about it, probably, touche? I have? There?
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: You go?
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Or have I? Yes?
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: I have? Maybe I should I should think of something.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: Maybe you should.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, but good God knows what you'd be doing.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Maybe I should maybe maybe I should?
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, never mind, we would do like ghosts again, but
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: with like really florally sheets.
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  Speaker 1: I'd be fine with that.
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  Speaker 2: I think that would be so fun.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's get on with this. So this is the
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Wolf Creek Killer because of the movie Wolf Creek aka
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: The Backpack Murders aka the story of Ivan Millett. So
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: on September nineteenth, nineteen ninety two, it was warm and
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: sunny day. Two runners were orienteering in the Bolongo State
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  Speaker 1: Forest area in Australia. Now, the peaceful atmosphere of the
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: forest quickly turned to a very grim situation. As they
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: approached the location ominously known as Executioners Drop. In the
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: stillness of the day, they were suddenly overwhelmed by the
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: foul and very familiar stench of decay. They assumed at
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: first that it came from a dead animal somewhere nearby
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: in the bushes. However, what they stumbled upon was far
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: more terrifying than they could ever have imagined. As they
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: slowed down, the runners spotted a shallow grave and inside
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: there were two bodies, two women, both lying face down
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: with their hands bound behind their backed. By the discovery,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: they immediately left the area and notified authorities.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, Hey, what a way to start your day.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no kidding. When police arrived at the scene, they
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: found the women's bodies partially covered by leaves and brush.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: The state of their decomposition was so advanced that identifying
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: them by sight alone was absolutely impossible. Nearby officers discovered
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: a makeshift fire pit, along with numerous cigarette butts and
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: several spent twenty two caliber shell casings scattered around the site. Well,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: it might seem like little evidence to put to us, like,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: you know, that's not a whole lot. Sure, of course,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: you know, you got some bullets, shells, some cigarette butts,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: maybe DNA or something. But the scene alone, it doesn't
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: really tell a whole lot of a story. But to
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: investigators it painted a very clear picture. The items left
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: behind suggested that whoever had committed the crime had spent
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: a significant time in the forest, unhurried, undeterred by the
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: risks of being caught. They sat there, they made a fire,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: they relaxed by the fire, smoked cigarettes, perhaps even killed
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: their victims then and there and buried them, maybe even
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: relaxing afterwards as well. Jeez, that's the picture of painted
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: to authorities. Yeah, it wasn't long before the two victims
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: were identified through forensic work. It was Caroline Clark, who
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: was twenty one years old, and Juanne Walters, who is
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  Speaker 1: twenty two, Both British nationals. Carolyn and Joanne, they traveled
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: to Sydney together earlier that year, hoping to find work
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: as nanny's. They had been missing since May of nineteen
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  Speaker 1: ninety two, and their tragic discovery marked a set of
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Australia's most infamous murder investigation. When the coroner examined the
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: bodies of Carolyn Clark and Joanne Walters, the full extent
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: of the brutality that they endured became horrifyingly clear. The
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  Speaker 1: details uncovered during the autopsies painted a picture of torture
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: and horrific deaths. Joanne had been bound and gagged, then
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  Speaker 1: viciously stabbed multiple times over. One of the stab wounds
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  Speaker 1: had been so severe and so deep that it severed
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  Speaker 1: her spinal core, wowing her paralyzed as the attack continued.
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  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, this injury would have rendered her absolutely
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  Speaker 1: defenseless against the ongoing assault. Investigators also noted that her
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  Speaker 1: pants were found with the zipper down, but the button
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  Speaker 1: fastened up, leading them to believe that her clothes had
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: been removed and then hastily redressed.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, yep, I was like, what does that mean? But yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that makes sense.
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  Speaker 1: Carolyn Clark faced an equally nightmarish fate. In addition to
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: being stabbed as well, Carolyn had been shot in the
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  Speaker 1: head at least ten times with a twenty two caliber rifle.
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  Speaker 1: Four bullets remained lodged inside of her skull, which investigators
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  Speaker 1: collected as evidence. The pattern of unshot suggested that she
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: had been used for target practice, though determining which shot
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  Speaker 1: had ultimately been fatal was impossible, So essentially, it is
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: more than likely that this individual sat back at the
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: fire using her as target practice as he was relaxing.
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  Speaker 2: Holy shit, that is like next level brutal. Yeah, oh
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: my goodness, gracious. Okay.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Now, I have mentioned this on the podcast before, but
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: twenty two caliber bullets are notorious for being used in
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: mob executions back in the day. Now this was due
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: to their small size and the fact that they often
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: remained lodged inside the skull rather than exiting the body,
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  Speaker 1: so when being shot in the head, the bullet had
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  Speaker 1: enough power to break through the skull, but not exit
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: through the skull. Again, so it would enter the skull,
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  Speaker 1: bounce around inside, ensuring it like scrambled the brains, ensuring
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  Speaker 1: it killed the person right. And also since it didn't exit,
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: it made for easier clean So I mean, I digress
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: a little bit, but it's not surprising to think that
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: a twenty two colored bullet, twenty two caliber bullet, there
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: we go, would be lodged inside the skull, as they
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  Speaker 1: are notorious for this.
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: So, following the grim discovery of the bodies, investigators expanded
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: their search in the surrounding area, hoping to uncover further
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: evidence or even worse, additional victims. However, after an extensive
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: sweep of the forest, no other remains of significant leads
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: were found. The lack of additional physical evidence left police
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: with no more questions or sorry, no more answers, just
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: more questions. As news of the double homicide began to spread,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: local communities began to fear the possibility of a serial
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: killer lurking in Polongo State forest. Some pointed to the
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: increasing number of missing hitchhikers in the region over the
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: past few years as evidence of a pattern. But despite
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: these concerns, authorities initially dismissed the idea that a serial
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: killer was responsible for these At the time, there was
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: no solid evidence suggests that such a crime had occurred before,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: leaving police hesitant to jump to conclusions and just understanding
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: they had a single case of murder on their hands,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: not a serial killer. Now, despite the evidence collected from
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: the bodies of Joanne and Carolyn and from the surrounding
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: area in the forest, police found themselves at a stand
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: still with the investigation. Clues from the crime scene offered
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: very little in the way of concrete leads as to
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: who might actually be responsible for responsible for this. In
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: their efforts to gain more insight into the killer's behavior,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: investigators consulted doctor Rod Milton, who was a seasoned forensic
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: psychiatrists who had worked with the New South Wales Police
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Force for over two decades at this point. Given his
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: extensive experience in crime scene analysis, authorities believe that doctor
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Milton might be able to help develop a psychological profile
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  Speaker 1: of this perpetrator that they're trying to deal with and find.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: So when doctor Milton was brought into the investigation, he
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: visited the scene with the investigators. He meticulously walked through
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: and combed the area where the bodies had been discovered,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: taking note of the terrain, the whole forest, its isolation,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: and any possible reason that the killer might have chosen
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: that particular spot. He also studied detailed photographs of the
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: crime scene and reviewed the forensic reports. After piecing together
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: the available information, doctor Milton crafted a profile of the
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: individual he believed was responsible for the murders at hand.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: According to doctor Milton's analysis, the killer was likely in
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: his mid thirties with a history of violent or aggressive behavior.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: This person was familiar with the area, comfortable navigating the
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: secluded landscape of the forest, and, most disturbingly, he believed
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: the killer was driven by sadistic desires, finding pleasure in
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: the suffering of others.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that makes sense. I still can't get over
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: this target practice thing. Yeah, I'm like trying to pay
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: at but that's the only thing going through my brain
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: because it's so terrible.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Well, and that highlights the fact that he's like, this
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: is a sadistic person who, yeah, like you know, finds
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: pleasure in this person suffering. Yeah, now, I guarantee you
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: that Unfortunately, though she had gone through this you know,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: abuse and murder, thankfully she wouldn't have been alive for
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: every single shot. Well yeah, yeah, so that is, I mean,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: the silver lining in it, but it still doesn't make
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: the fact that he continued to use her, whether alive
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: or dead, for target practice any better.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: No, No, honestly, that is one of the worst things
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I've ever heard in my whole life. I know, right,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: and I have heard a lot of true crying.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: We've gone through a lot of shit on this show,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: and yeah, that is that's one of those things. That's
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: that's it's up there.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I feel like when something said that shocks me.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: It is. It's pretty bad, you know.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough, It takes a lot at this point. Yeah, Now,
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: they did have this psychological profile from doctor Milton. However,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: it wasn't enough to move the investigation forward at all.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: All they had was a little bit of an insight
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: into this individual. But there's still no leads, there's no fingerprints,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: no DNA. They have some evidence, but nothing to connect
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: to any person, at least not yet. Progress remained frustratingly slow,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: to say the least. Investigators continue to follow up on
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: leads and scrutinize any reports of suspicious behavior or suspicious
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: disappearances in the region, but their efforts produced very little.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: The case seemed to be going absolutely cold, and as
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: time passed it faded from the forefront of the investigation
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: as things moved on. But then thirteen months later, in
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: October of nineteen ninety three, the case was reignited, this
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: with the discovery of two more bodies in Belongo State Forest.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: The victims were identified as nineteen year old James Gibson
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: and Deborah Everest, who had been missing nineteen eighty nine.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: James and Deborah were both Native Australians and were last
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: seen heading south from Sydney to attend a conservation festival
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: in December of that year. Their decomposed remains bore grim
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: similarities to the earlier victims found. Both have been stabbed
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: multiple times, with deep wounds that were deep enough to
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: sever their spinal cords, rendering them paralyzed. Yeah, just with
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Walters and Clark. Investigators found a makeshift fire pit and
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: spent casings near the body. The location of the crime
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: scene was disturbingly close to where Walters and Clark had
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: been found, less than one hundred feet away.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: This fucker, hey, the fact that they're just like enjoying
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: this and like, I don't know because you just you
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: think sitting by the fire, you know, you're like chilling,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: it's like a good night kind of thing. Yeah, and
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: he's doing this while he's taking people's lots like lives.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh man, Now I do have to say, we
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: don't know for sure that he's sitting by the fire
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: pit and killing them.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's still a disgusting piece of shit that
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: shouldn't be enjoying his life in a fire.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: I agree. What could be the case is they could
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: already be deceased and he takes them out there and
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: he's chilling by the fire, burying their bodies and using
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: their remains as target practice.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: We don't know, celebrating that they're done with or something. Right, Well,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: maybe like that he's well he's done with them.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Maybe maybe not even celebrating, but he's got a job
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: to do now, right, He's got to bury bodies. So now,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: maybe the fire pit this is way of like taking
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: breaks and relaxing, kicking back after some hard work. You know.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Not that I'm saying that's what you should do or
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: make sense to me, but for someone like that with
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: very little empathy towards the actions and these victims and everything.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: That's what he does.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that could be the case. It could be
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: very well the case that he's sitting by the fire
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: torturing these people and using them as target practice while
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: they're still alive too. Unfortunately we don't know.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: I'm saying he but that was never even determined I
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: guess either, was it?
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Well, it was determined in the profile by doctor Milton.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: They're assuming, right, they're assuming, but.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Probably because of strength and stuff too.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: I'm right, most likely, and I mean, let's be honest,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: the ratio of male to female perpetrators, it's a little
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: bit lopsided. The odds of it being male, it's most likely.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: So, with this new discovery about these new victims, found
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: any lingering doubt about the nature of the murders vanished.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: The methodical violence of the and the proximity of the bodies,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: and the consistence, the consistency in the murders. This was
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: clear that this was the killer's hunting ground basically at
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: this point, and of course that a serial killer was
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: at large praying on victims. The police now we're certain
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: that they were deemed of dealing with a repeat offender,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: and they intensified their efforts to catch this person.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Okay, I have one other question too, because isn't there
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: quite a gap between when these people are missing and
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: then when they're actually like discovered.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Well like these last two ones they were they were
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: killed in I believe eighty nine, and then they're found
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: in ninety three.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Ok yeah, for a few years. Yeah, that's very interesting.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: And they had actually gone missing before the original ones. Really, yes, okay,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: so it is I believe they would have been in
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: that forest at the time of the surf if I'm
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: not mistaken, huh. Okay, yes. So anyways, Desperate to make
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: some headway in the case, the new South Wales Police
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Department brought in Superintendent Civil Small, a seasoned police commissioner
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: known for his experience handling complex investigation. They're basically bringing
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: in the big guns. You're like, we need someone, well, yeah,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: bringing Small, We need them.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: You know, I have four victims at this point, so exactly.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Now, the brutality of this case was unlike anything Small
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: had ever encountered before. With the way of the investigation
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: now on his shoulders, Small wasted no time in getting
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: to work. One of Small's first moves was to establish
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: a large task force dedicated to scouring the vast expanse
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: of the state forest. He was determined to find more
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: victims if they were out there. His instincts proved correct.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Almost exactly one month after the last two bodies were discovered,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: police found yet another victim on November first, Simone Schmidel,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: a young German backpacker. Simone had been hitchhiking along the
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Hume Highway south of Sydney in search of work. Her
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: remains told the chillingly familiar story. She'd been stabbed in
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: the back, the wound severing her spine, immobilizing her as
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: she was subject to further torment.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that is that, like you said, Like
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: that is just like complete psych catic really, as as with.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: The other victims. Near Simone's body were the telltale signs
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: of the killer's method, a crude fire pit, twenty two
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: caliber shell casings, and a shallow grave partially concealed by debris.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Small now felt certain that the grim pattern would continue,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and he was right. Just three days later, the task
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: force uncovered two more bodies, that of Anya Habsheed, twenty
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: years old, and her boyfriend Gabdor Nugibber, who's twenty one.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Both German tourists had been missing since December of nineteen
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: ninety one. This new crime scene bore many of the
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: trademarks of the earlier murders, but with some gruesome twists.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Gabor had been strangled and then shot multiple times, his
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: body left with his genes unzipped, mirroring the other victims.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Anya had been brutally stabbed, but the discovery of her
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: body revealed a shocking macob difference. She had been decapitated.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Hustigators believe that a machete was the tool used to
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: sever her head from her body, but despite extensive searches,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: her head was never recovered.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: No. Yeah, oh man, okay, huh, I can't believe. Like,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: so he's like paralyzing these people on purpose and so
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: that they really really can't defend themselves. Yes, and then
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: just going through with his acts.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, this case, this case is shocking the shit out
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: of me.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, he's he's attacking the spinal cord on purpose.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: He is paralyzing them on purpose so they cannot get
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: away or defend themselves.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Wow. Okay.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: By this point, it was clear to Smalls that as
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: long as the murderer was at large, no one was safe.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: With bodies mounting and the media attention growing, Small publicly
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: admitted that a serial killer was indeed not at large,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: but active in the state forest. He took the unprecedented
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: step of releasing photos of the victims in hope that
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: someone somewhere might have information that could help crack this case.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: As disturbing them as the murders were, the killer's choice
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: of victims seemed very deliberate. Each one was a young,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: adventurous person backpackers, hitchhikers, exploring new places and seeking a
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: care free life. But tragically, their pursuit of freedom and
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: excitement had been what brought them to the horrific violent
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: and the killer's methods were also varied and sadistic, making
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: it difficult for investigators to pinpoint who they were looking for. Yes,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: there were some similarities, but the murderer had been had
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: been using a wide array of techniques to actually kill
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: out the killings their stabbings, their strangulations, their shooting, bludgeoning, decapitation.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of varying things still going on. As
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: pressure mounted, Small and his task force were running out
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: of leads. Despite having a way all the physical evidence,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: including the forensic data from the crime scenes, the investigation
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: was at a frustrating standstill. They still could not connect
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: the murders to a person. That is until nineteen ninety four,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: when an unexpected break came from a man living on
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: the other side of the world.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, here I thought maybe they would go
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: about like trying to set him up or something, you know,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: set who up the killer, like pretend like they were hitchhiking.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Oh batim.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, I don't know if they did that,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: but I mean, that would have been a potentially of
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: doing it. It worked, but when you do that, you also
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: risk Yes, someone's life too, right.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, it's terrifying. I would I don't think I
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: would ever volunteer for something like that.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: No, No, I'm definitely not going to volunteers tribute. No,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: thank you, do not call me Catnus Everdean, I'm good. Anyways,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: this breakthrough came from a man named Paul Onions. Now,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Paul had been watching the news. He's watching the news.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: There's this coverage of this investigation that he saw, and
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: he saw what Smalls was talking about. This murder, This
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: spree happening in Australia. Now he's a british Man and
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: he recognized some key details from this story. He picked
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: up the phone and he called the New South Wales Police.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: His account would soon prove to be the breakthrough Smalls
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: had been desperately seeking. So Paul encountered a man on
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Thursday January twenty fifth, nineteen ninety as he walked along
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: the Hume Highway south of Sydney, Okay. So he had
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: been on vacation in Australia in the area, and like
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: many travelers, Paul had come to Australia, you know, seeking
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: that adventure. And in the week since his arrival, he
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: had been hitchhiking across the country. Now, I did already
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: mention this and the intro, but hitchhiking was a common
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: mode of transportation at the time. Paul never thought anything
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: about the risks that might be involved. He trusted the
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: kindness of strangers. Considered safe people did it all the time, right, However,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: he was unaware that this trust could would nearly cost
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: him his life. Now, Paul, as he was going along,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: he was thirsty and he was tired from hours of walking.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: He approached a small corner store, and he decided it
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: was good good time to take a break. As he
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: adjusted the backpack on his shoulder, a silver truck pulled
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: up alongside him. The driver hopped out. He was a
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: muscular looking man with a very distinctive handlebar mustache, and
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: he asked Paul, hey, you need a lyft. Grateful for
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: the offer, Paul accepted without any hesitation. Yeah, sure, right,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: it's safe. I've been hitch hiking constantly while down here
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: to see other people hitch hiking. People picked me up.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: It's normal.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this guy's just being nice.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Exactly, so he's like, yeah, sounds great. So the man
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: introduced himself as Bill, and after a brief exchange of pleasantries,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: you know, hey, how's it going, my name? Is this
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: where you're headed? You know that sort of stuff, they
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: both climbed into his truck and they took off. At first,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: the ride seemed normal enough, but as the miles passed by,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Paul began to sense something a little bit off and
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: unsettling about Bill. He became increasingly agitated, ranting about various topics,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: including racist views and xenophobic things. You know, people who
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: are from outside the country and I mean, Paul's from
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: outside of the country, and it began to make Paul
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: a little bit uncomfortable. The conversation took an even darker
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: turn when Bill began to ask Paul a series of odd,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: probing questions about him and his life, like was he
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: expect was anyone expecting him when he arrived at his destination?
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Did he have any military or special forces training? And
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: most ominously, did anyone know exactly where he was headed?
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Holy shit? Hey, could you imagine being asked those questions?
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Ah, Now a lot of these things are not
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: generally questions that are asked from hitchhikers, right, well.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: No, not to that extent really, like where you go in?
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: But is someone expecting you there? Like that is just creepy.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's getting a little bit too personal here. So
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: as these personal questions began piling up, because like one
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: or two are fine, right, but like when you start
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: asking more and more, I mean, there's an alarm that
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: goes off in your head, and Paul definitely had that
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: alarm go off. So what started as a friendly ride
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: was rapidly becoming something much darker, and the tipping point
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: came when Bill suddenly pulled the truck over to the
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: side of the road, claiming he needed to receive a
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: cassette from beneath his seat. Okay, now, Paul was suspicious
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: as he glanced at the center console where you know,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: they're between both their armrests, and there was there was
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: a lot of cassettes just sitting there. There was no
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: reason for Bill to need another one or why he
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: would store it there and all the other ones. Yeah,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: but Bill reaching under a seat was not reaching for
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: a cassette, not for music. He was reaching for a
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: length of rope. And Paul knew in that moment that
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: he had to act fast because something wasn't right. His
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: hands fumbled to him buckle his belt, but now Bill
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: held a revolver that he pulled from out from underneath
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: the seat as well, and he aimed it directly at Paul,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: announcing that he's being robbed. But Paul wasn't going to
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: sit idly by and wait for what he knew could
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: be much worse. He knew this situation was only going
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: to escalate, and with adrenaline pumping, he pushed open the
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: truck door and he bolted, leaving his backpack and all
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: his belongings in that truck. Now Bill also chased after him.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Paul ran for his life, and Bill began firing the gun,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: with bullets whizzing past him. As he just narrowly escaped
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: being shot. He darted into the highway, frantically waving for help.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Car slowed, but they didn't stop. They chose to ignore him,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: being a man panically waving like that probably looks crazy, right,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: so they passed him by. Now, just when it seemed
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: hope was fading and that Bill was actually going to
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: get to him, a car finally came to a halt
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: right in front of Paul. The drive was a woman
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: by the name of Joanne Barry. Now, she had her
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: family crammed in the back seat, and, though initially hesitant
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: to let Paul in, his panic and repeated shouts about
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: a gunman chasing him convinced her to have him let in.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: And she hit the gas.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, wow, thank goodness. Hey, like, even her family in
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: the back seat, and she still stops.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, he piled it. That's amazing, and he's like,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: go and she did so Joanne sped away, leaving Bill
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: and his truck in the dust. Joanne, since this situation
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: was very serious, I mean, of course, right, yeah, and
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: she drove Paul to the nearest police station in Bool. Now.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Once there, Paul relayed the terrifying details of the encounter
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: to an officer who took down his statement. Though shaken,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Paul reported the full incident and the officer filed the report.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: But unfortunately, nothing ever really came of it.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this was never like linked up until now,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: it was never really linked. Huh.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: So Paul was now left without his backpack, pass port,
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: all the possessions. Yeah. Yeah, So he went to Sydney
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: to replace his documents, and as soon as he could
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: he left Australia. He caught the first flight back to
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: the UK, hoping to put this whole nightmare behind him.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: And for a few years, Paul thought it was the
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: end of this experience in Australia, unaware that his encounter
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: with Bill would become this critical turning point in this
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: notorious serial killer case.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, he is very lucky to be alive.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Oh is he ever? Because he was facing death?
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: And I have a feeling that if he didn't bolt,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: he would have been buried in that forest and potentially
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: discovered along the rest of the others.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah one, Oh my goodness.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: So the story that Paul told seemed almost too incredible
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: to believe. Could it really be after all this time,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: that this missing link just kind of popped out of nowhere.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: So police were a little bit like suspicious, like is
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: this a real story? Is this a real lead? All
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: this right? So Superintendent Small, he knew that he couldn't
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: rely on just this man word alone, so he reached
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: out to the one person who could verify Paul's account,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Joanne Barry, the woman whose car Paul had frantically climbed
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: it in and she had driven him to safety. So
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: after speaking with Joanne and hearing her confirm every detail
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: of Paul's story, Small realized that he could be this
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: could be the breakthrough in the case. So, without wasting
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: any time, Small arranged to have Paul flown to Australia,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: and once there, Paul was shown a photographic lineup of
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: potential suspects. Without any hesitation, Paul pointed to a man
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: in the lineup and said that is him, one hundred percent,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: and that man was not a man by the name
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: of Bill. That man was an individual by the name
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: of Ivan Milat.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, So they already had had this guy kind of
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: like as a suspect obviously, but they just hadn't been
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: able to, like, you know, have enough evidence to be
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: like this is the one.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was no linking this man, I mean, like, so,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Ivan was no strain to law enforcement at this time whatsoever.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: For years, he had been on their radar. He was
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: known for his violent temper in defiance to hoard authority.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: He had a long record of criminal behavior. He was,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: in fact, one of the most potential suspects in these
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: murders and police had him like on the radar. Yeah,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: but until this moment, there was no evidence they came
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: him to the crime.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: So Paul's identification was the first piece of the puzzle,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: and Small knew he had enough to take the next step.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Armed with this new information, Small presented the evidence to
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: the judge and secured a warrant to search Ivan's property.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: On the morning in May twenty second, nineteen ninety four,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: nearly fifty police officers surrounded Ivan's home. They were dressed
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: in all black and bulletproof vests and prepared for resistance.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: They moved in and as they stormed the house. Ivan
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: was unfazed at first. He just kind of laughed it off,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: and apparently he thought that the raid was some kind
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: of prank by someone one of his friends or something
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: at first. Seriously, yeah, which made it much easier for
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: police to get him because he's like, oh, it's a joke,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: it's not real, when really it's like, no, we actually
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: just stormed your house and you didn't fight back at all.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: So that's good.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: That is good. Yeah, because yeah, if he I mean,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: but who the heck would just think that's a.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Joke, I know, So yeah, it quickly became clear to
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Ivan that it was no joke, but it was unfortunately
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: for him too Little Two Lakes. He was already in cuffs.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think they would have got him either way,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: though they seem like they're pretty prepared.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Oh the fifty people.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like, I think they would have got him either way.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: They would have, but I mean the problem is maybe
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: they would have got him not alive.
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but Ivan was arrested, and he was arrested for
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the assault on Paul Onions. Okay, okay, but the police
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: were far from finished because of course the search weren't right, Yes,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: so they searched his house, and it yielded a staggering
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: amount of evidence.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Hey, I can imagine.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Scattered across the rooms were pieces of guns, including parts
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: of a twenty two caliber rifle, the same type used
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: in the murders. Ammunition case, sorry, ammunitions casings were found,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: and subsequent ballistics testings would later match the bullets recovered
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: from those to Joanne Walter's skull. Okay, so the bullets
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: found in his house were a positive match for those
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: found in the remains of Joanne. Now, even more damning
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: was a discovery of personal belongings that once belonged to
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Ivan's victims, things like backpack, sleeping bags, and camping gear
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: belonging to murdered travelers who were found throughout the property,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: and in the later search of Ivan's mother's home, police
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: uncovered a curved machete locked away in a glass case.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Investigators believed it could have been used in the decapitation
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: of Anya.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Here, I'm just like waiting for them to
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: also find her head. Does that happen?
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Her head was never found.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know why. I just was like, it's
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: in the freezer, that's just where my head went, but.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: That's where your head went.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Terrible terrible words.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: Shit, Anyway, I was expecting that to be found, but
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: it's not.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Hey, nope, okay, definitely not so. With this mountain of evidence,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Small's brought Ivan in for questioning. However, Ivan was a
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: seasoned criminal who had spent a lot of his life
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: in and out of police stations and enduring questionings and
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: all this sort of stuff. He wasn't intimidated at all.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: And he sat there and he refused to cooperate. He
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: just sat remained very tight lipped, said nothing. And that's it.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: That's honestly incredible to me that someone being that guilty,
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: like they've found a lot of things, can just sit
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: there like whatever kind of thing. Yeap, that's shocking, I know.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Now. Once sabilistic tests came back to match the bullets
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: found the crime scene, as I already mentioned right that
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: they came but this is when they actually came back,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: Ivan was then officially charged with seven counts of first
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: degree murder. He was linked officially to the other ones,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: but still Ivan refused to talk. He was adamant of
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: his innocence and despite the accumulating evidence against him, He's
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: just like, it wasn't me.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: It wasn't me.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can, you can call him shaggy at this point.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Wasn't me. And I'm honestly, I bet you anything. There's
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: there's probably a few more, or even like this one.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: I can't remember his name? Was it Bill? Where? Who he? Like? Almost?
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: You know? Ones that got away?
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: Oh, Paul Paulry? Yeah, No, Ivan claimed his name was Bill, right, Okay.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: I was like, there is a Bill in the story.
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: Okay, well a fake bill, a fake bill, yeah, counterfeit.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: See what I did?
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: I know? Yeah?
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: So when when Paul certain not all name names mixed
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: up here? When Ivan's defense attorney, John Marston, who had
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: represented him in the past, actually arrived and he took
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: a look at the case, the overwhelming case against him, Yeah,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: he immediately urged his client to plead guilty.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I thought he was gonna be like, I'm
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: out John, helping you.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: John took one look at the case. He's like, Ivan,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: plead guilty because you fucked.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Could you imagine His defense attorney.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Is like, nope, there's nothing I can do basically, huh.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Ivan, however, insisted that he was innocent and he fired
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: John Marston right then and there and continued to proclaim
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: his innocence. So Ivan entered a plea of not guilty
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: on all charges, and this set the stage for a
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: very high profile trial.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: What a cocky motherfucker really, I know, right? Unreal? Unreal.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: After numerous delays, the trial finally began on March of
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six. The man who had come face to
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: face with me lat or sorry, Ivan Melat and lived
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: to tell a tale, Paul Onion, was the prosecution's star witness.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Despite the defense's attempt to disrespect him, Paul handled the
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: cross examination with confidence. Sorry, I said disrespect, but discredit
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: was the what I meant to say. Yeah, So he
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: held the cross examination very well and with very full
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: confidence in his story. Paul's testimony, along with the vast
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: amount of physical evidence, eventually proved to be too much
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: for Ivan, and after weeks of testimony, the jury was
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: left with very little doubt. Now, I do want to say,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: as far as physical evidence goes, I believe they had
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: over four hundred pieces of physical evidence.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, and he's still just ut there wasn't me like,
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: are you kidding me?
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Yeap, So we're talking matching bullets. We're talking the cartridges,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: we're talking the machete found. But I don't think they
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: can they found blood or anything. I think it's just
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: you know, yeah, they're talking about like items, personal items.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Potentially they even had Paul's personal items that he was
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: able to identify. I'm not too sure they had all
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: these things. They had up to four hundred things pieces
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: of evidence connecting him.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Well, they did a damn good job, then that's awesome.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah they did so. In an attempt to defend himself,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Ivan took the stand, and of course he just claimed
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: his innocence. However, his defense unraveled very quickly under cross examination,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: and he weakly attempted to shift the blame onto his
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: brothers for all the evidence found in his home, an
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: explanation that failed to hold up under scrutiny in court.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Right The trial, which lasted for a total of fifteen weeks,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: concluded on July twenty seventh in nineteen ninety six. After
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: three days of deliberation, the jury returned with a unanimous
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: verdict guilty on all accounts. Ivan Milat was sentenced to
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: seven consecutive life sentences for the murders. As well as
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: an additional six years for the assault on Paul Onions.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: Though Melat was now locked away, police believed that the
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: dark secrets of the State forest had yet to be
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: fully unlocked and uncovered. So numerous unsolved disappearances along the
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Hume Highway raised the possibility that Melat. I'm sorry, Ivan Melat,
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: I have his last name written in here several times. Sorry,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: I'm refrained. So Ivan was responsible for even more murders
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: because it's like they're still missing people out right, right,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: But despite thorough investigation, authorities were unable to definitively tie
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: him to any of these other missing cases. Yeah. Now,
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and five, Ivan's former attorney, John Marston
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: made a reassurgence in this case with a startling claim
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Ivan had allegedly confessed to him that a woman had
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: sometimes been involved in carrying out the murders. Huh Now,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: I just want to point this out. Sorry, go ahead, Well.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: I was just going to say that kind of makes
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: sense for like getting easily like more people trusting to
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: get in his vehicle and stuff, right, so.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: For sure, but also that's a confession. Yeah, Like Ivan
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: just confessed and he's.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: Always like an ins Oh, yeah.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: He's like someone else helped me murder, right, that is
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: totally that's a confession, totally.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, I went way off on something else.
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, that totally is so yeah, I just
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: want to throw that out there.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: But this fueled speculation of yeah, someone else being involved, right,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: because a lot of people for a long time believe
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: that because of the sheer brutality the crimes, particularly the
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: particularly the methodical torture and overpowering of the victims, suggested
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: the involvement of more than one person. However, despite these
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: suspicions these claims, no accomplice has ever been identified or charged. Now,
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: adding to that uncertain though surrounding Ivan's saying that you
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: know another woman was involved or whatever, there was someone
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: who came forward after his arrest, a woman asserting that
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: her husband by the name of Win Kasperceek had been
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: the true culprit behind the backpack murders and not Ivan.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Now this woman claims that, yeah, it's like it's my
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: husband who's the murderer.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: She really doesn't want to be with her husband anymore.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Hey, apparently now Winn had eventually been arrested in nineteen
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: ninety four but it was not for any of the killings,
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: and these claims cast a lot of doubt in the
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: mind of people. But I mean, as I mentioned, there's
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: more than four hundred pieces of evidence of items that
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: link I even himself to Well.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's certain that he was very much
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: so involved. It's just trying to figure out if there's
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: someone else as well.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but this woman claims it's her husband, not Ivan.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: All the evidence points to Ivan, nothing points to her husband.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Well, maybe he's the one that has all these other victims,
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: you know, who knows now.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: May twenty nineteen, Ivan was admitted to the Prince of
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Wales Hospital for serious health issues and was soon diagnosed
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: with terminal esopha geal and stomach cancer. With his time
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: running out, police made several attempts to extract a deathbed
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: confession from him, hoping he might finally admit to the
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: crimes or reveal unknown victims and where to find them.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Investigators visited him a total of eight times using different methods,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: you know, approaching him with different investigators showing him videos
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: of interviews with victims' families, hoping to stir a sense
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: of guilt or remorse. But Ivan remained silent and remains
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: saying that he's innotent, innotant innocent.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: Just nothing from him.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just until the very end he's like nope.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Huh. I mean, I mean that's kind of surprising, but
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: also not really because this guy seems like he's a
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: piece of shit.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: So yeah. On October twenty seventh, twenty nineteen, Ivan Milett
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: died from cancer, taking his secrets to the grave without
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: ever confessing to murders for which that he had convicted.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: He was convicted except for the alleged I mean, it
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: wasn't directly from him. It was his defense attorney that
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: said he said it.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: But I feel like that's so interesting too, because I thought,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: maybe I'm completely wrong, but I thought things that you
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: said to your defense attorney is supposed to just stay
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: with them, isn't it.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: Kind of I mean, technically he was also fired to.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know, okay, okay, not.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: Certain but anyways, despite his refusal to admit guilt, Ivan's
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: brittal crime has left an incredible mark on Australia, this
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: being one of the most prolific cases in Australia's history,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: and as I mentioned, the intro This story even inspired
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: the horror film Wolf Creek and yeah.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not certain I want to watch that.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: We will be watching it tonight. Are going to check
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: it out?
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: Apparently I don't get a choice.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now the movie is, though there are some similarities,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: it is a bit different and the uh without spoiling anything,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: they managed to even Paul's experiences a bit of into
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: the story as well, which I really like.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, so so yeah, probably scariest shit though I can
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: only imagine this movie.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's it's interesting.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Cool. So well, I'm going to edit during it so
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: that I have something else to like focus on that
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: right distraction?
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Make you feel better? Yeah, fair enough? But yeah, that
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: is as I mentioned, that's the story of the Wolf
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Creek Killer because it got the name from the movie.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: The Backpack Murders and Ivan Milatt all wrapped into one
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: horrific douche canoe.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: It's so sad that just like as the years have
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: gone on and stuff, it's how evident it is that
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: you just can't trust anyone, you know, like back then
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: it's so cool that well not cool, but like that
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: you could go in someone's vehicle and I mean like
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: probably not fearlet are ninety nine times out of a
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: thousand are probably even greater than that. Like you're fine,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Like it's fine, You're just getting to meet other people, right,
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: But then so much shit has come about of this
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: trusting people, and now it's just the world's changed.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: Well, I do want to say say one thing here.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: I do think I mean, and I'm saying this because
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: like it's such a it's so easy to say that
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: there's so much distrust in the world and there's so
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: many bad people out there. I do still think that
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: there's so many good people out there.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, the majority of people are good.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: But you're saying back then, hitchhiking ninety nine, one hundred
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: or what was your number.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: I think it's a nine hundred and ninety nine out
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: of a thousand. It went, well, I'm just going to
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: go probably I'm.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Going to go percentage wise ninety nine percent out of time,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: nine percent out of time, ninety nine percent of the time.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: You used to be able to go hitchhiking and be safe. Well,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: nowadays the implication is that that number is much lower.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: Imagine Paul's situation happening right now today and wherever you live, Okay,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: someone is chasing you, wanting to kill you, and you
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: run out into traffic, I guarantee ninety nine percent of
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: those people are willing to help you.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Well, kay, I'm not saying it's it's more scary now,
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: per se. I'm just saying we've learned from all these
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: stories that like, I mean, we're just people are a
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: little bit more like, you know, they know what could
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: potentially happen more so it's like a little bit more
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: distrusting or whatever. I still think that there's still like
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: just as many good people and bad people and stuff.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: But yeah, no, they just.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: Think nowadays, more people would stop in that.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: No, I'm not saying more people would stop. I'm saying then,
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: in that exact incident with Paul, when he climbed into
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: I believe her name was Joanne, Yeah, he had a
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: ninety nine percent chance of climbing into someone's car who
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: was going to help him not hurt him, right, And
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: I think if that were to be you or me
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: or whoever's listening you as well, if you were doing
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: that today, you have a ninety nine percent chance to
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: climb into the vehicle of someone who will help you
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: hurt you. Yeah, Yes, there's distrust. People don't want to
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: bring in a weirdo into their car. You don't want
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: to get into a stranger's car. That distrust is much
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: larger than it was then, But I think the rate
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: of good people willing to help you is still there.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: Can you imagine that if you got into someone's vehicle
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: who is also a complete piece of shit and then
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: it just happens like again, oh man, holy like you
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: would have some shitty luck. Hey.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: That reminds me of like a TikTok I saw back
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: in the day, where it's like someone's hitch hiking and
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: they get into the vehicle and then the drivers like
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: going there, like you're not a serial killer? Are you?
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: And then the person hitchhiking's like me no, he's like
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: you and the driver's like what me no, And they're
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: both like no, And then like the person hitchhiking's like okay, good.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Could you imagine the odds of two serial killers being
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: in the car and the guy's like, wait, you are
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: a serial killer?
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Me too?
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: And then it's like wait, really you are you the
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: the hitchhikerumer And then it's just like two murderers like
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: getting along.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, like a budding friendship forming.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Hey pretty much?
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Oh brutal?
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Thankfully that's just a TikTok and not real life.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: But yeah, uh, well, we have covered stories. I feel
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: like we're like bad people, murderers, some connect in some
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: way and become friends.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: Oh definitely, we have the thing. Yeah. Yeah, and we
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: have covered other hitch hiking situations. Like I'm thinking, what's
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: the was it the kenon Barbie or was it like
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Girl in a Box? Have we covered the girl in
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: the box story we have?
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, I think that that's one.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: There's a couple that we have done and I can't
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: recall like the exact stories off the top of my head.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: I can't recall all of them either, but there's one
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: that's sticking out to me and I think it's I
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: think it's Girl in a Box.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: I think that's the one where she was hitchhiking as well,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: because it was like a family in the car and
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: she got in and then it, yeah, it went sours
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: and didn't they.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: Like put her head in a box in the car?
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: I think so? Yeah, I think so the box inside
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: was carpeted to prevent the streams getting up.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just the worst oh man. Yeah, people suck, like,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: very few people suck, but they very few.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: People suck and they ruin it for the rest of us.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So that's the moral of the story.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: That's the moral. Yeah, moral of the story is some
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: people suck and they wreck it for us.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Anyways, go check out our social media if you want
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: to get more behind the scenes where we mentioned that
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: we are doing a thirty one days of Halloween movies,
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: you can check that out over on Patreon. It is
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: a subscription place where you go and get that exclusive
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: content and all that sort of stuff. We are you
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: be posting our annual Halloween photo shoot over on Instagram
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: and Facebook. I'll probably post a little bit more photos
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: on Patreon too, so you see a little bit more
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: of the to shoot. But yeah, all our links are
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: down below. Thanks for being here.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much. So until Friday, Stay Wicked.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Was that good enough?
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: I thought, so do it again? Then?
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, stay Wicked.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: I think the first one was better.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Shit, Okay, Stay Wicked.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: There you go.