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Can Our Regrets Change the Way We Live? | Beyond Our Stories with Henk Pretorius · Beyond our Stories

• Ali Schmahl: conversation with one of my friends or and he was also a writer and we just said like if you could live forever with you and that's where it started like seven eight years ago before the the film was actually born. And at the time when I started thinking about forever young, I wanted to live forever. And now where I'm now where I'm older I'm like I'm actually okay with just going. The one thing I can say is that there's this golden thread between all of us that ⁓ every single human being I I meet More or less the same things are important to them. And I think that a lot of people live their life to what society of the time wants us to think that life is about. Every person has a story. Some stories make us laugh, some challenge us. Some stay with us long after they're over. But sometimes the most meaningful part of their story isn't the ending. But it's the conversation that starts afterwards. Welcome to Beyond Our Stories. I'm Ali. I'm Stephanie. And our guest today is Hank Pretorius, a South African-born London-based director, writer and storyteller. His movies include the background trilogy, Fanny Furries, La Bola, Leading Lady, and Forever Young, a science fiction romance starring Bernard Hill, Diana Quick, and more. We are connecting today mainly because of his movie Forever Young. And Forever Young is a movie that asks a simple question or a question that seemingly sounds simple at first. It's the question. If you have the chance to stay young forever, would you take it? Robin, a 70-year-old former acclaimed author, is offered a secret formula that can reverse aging. It promises freeing you from all your regrets. But when her husband refuses to join her on this reverse age journey, her second chance at youth suddenly comes with a choice that she didn't expect. Hank told us that when he made the movie, he hoped the audience would leave the cinema arguing about it on the drive home. So today we're going to have that conversation with you. Hank, welcome to Beyond Our Stories. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hank, before we start, for the for the listeners and the viewers, please tell us who are you? I always avoid that thing, you know, when when Instagram says about you or who are you, because ⁓ I've been doing quite a bit of things in different avenues, and it's difficult for me to answer that. I'm the sort of person that if there's a burning bus with people in it, half of me wants to rescue everyone and half of me wants to run away. So I'm I have both a strong character and I'm also someone that knows how to survive. So at the best of times I'm someone that runs in and saves everyone. And at the worst of times I'm someone that phones the cops and runs away. So I'm bo I I I'm I'm I'm quite laid in that way. Yeah. Okay. That's very that's very interesting. And you are a writer, director and a storyteller. How how did it come h when when when did you realize that a storytelling was something you needed to do? When I was very, very young, I I wrote my first story was when I was in grade one and it was about this elephant ⁓ and this worm that had this friendship because the elephant lost its trunk and it could no longer eat. And I had to find a worm that would feed him. And and so it protected this world from enemies. And what I liked about that was that it's the only thing or medium I can actually think about where what I do, if I really succeed, I entertain people and I ⁓ give them something to look forward to. And that passion has always dro driven me to become a filmmaker. You grew up in South Africa. And now you live in London. As a storyteller, I believe that whenever you see people, you start making a stories of every individual person on the street. So for example, because I do that a lot when when I see people I'm sitting at a cafe drinking espresso or so I s I look at people and say, Okay, this person might have this story and going that way and that and that. How did the the the moving from South Africa to London change that perspective and changed it changed how you see people and how you you tell a story? Yeah, I think it's valid what you're saying about observing people and figuring out what they're like and what their culture is like. And it's always been a passion of mine. I before I moved to London I actually lived in Los Angeles for two and a half years and then I lived in Vancouver and now I live in London. And the one thing I can say is that there's this golden thread between all of us that ⁓ every single human being I I meet, more or less the same things are important to them. They might speak of it in a different way. And they might translate it differently. But we all want safety. We all want ⁓ someone to love us and to accept us for who we are. And then we all want the ability to achieve whatever we want to achieve, you know, might be for different reasons. And so if you look at the world in a universal thematic sense, there's a golden thread. But then there's also cultures. And the more specific you are around cultures, ⁓ a lot of the times the more your film translates ⁓ into the global market space. Because culture actually makes something more unique. So what I found is when I first lived in London is I made this romantic comedy where they had all these things where I know that South Africans and British people are different. So it was a cultural clash comedy and I poked fun at this. And it did really well because people could see themselves in it. Whereas like when I did for forever young, ⁓ it it was more of a exploration of the upper middle class in Britain, which I got to know through my you know, through living here. And how they would look at something as de aging. So it's a it's an interesting question because it's it's both you have to be ⁓ as a storytelling conscious, I suppose, to how the world perceives You know, what is important to the world or to us as a species, and then at the same time very specific. That's very interesting because you made comedy, you made romance, you made even science fiction. And I'm very curious to know because because for me, when when whenever I direct a movie or I produce a movie, there are some specific themes that come ca can come back to me every ever every now and then and I say, yeah, okay, this topic needs more attention. We need to make more movies about them. Is there any question or any any any theme, any topic that you realize you've been returning to without necessarily intending to? I don't make movies for I don't have a political agenda when I make a movie. I think the one topic or thematic that's always been there with even without my knowledge is that all my characters of my successful even my least successful films have always struggled with achieving something versus ⁓ loving someone. And because I'm so ambitious and I always want my light to shine and I always think about what's next, where am I going next, I think the struggle of that, ⁓ and or the balance of that with ⁓ being in a relationship and like I'm married ⁓ and and I love being married. And the layeredness of that of being someone that is really there for someone else and having that relationship, how to balance that with your ambition. And I think most of my films actually, or all of them, ⁓ is actually subtextually about that. ⁓ with without my knowledge, I would say. I'm not it's not not something I consciously do. Mm-hmm. And have you worked on a story where you felt like, ⁓ this is gonna be this one thing, but then you discover, ⁓ but it's also about other things? I think every screenplay I start writing is like that. It's like People call it your vomit draft, but it's actually just the exploration into what you really want to say. And it's to do something unique and original is takes a lot of lot of drafts and a lot of digging in yourself and then a lot of balancing that with good structure and and s ⁓ you know, and just just or overall good script writing skills, I suppose. So to to answer your question I think that I've had that every time I write something, that I search for it and I dig into it until I really see what it is. And then it's like, ⁓ this is what it is. And then it's so obvious. Mm-hmm. And only then yeah, and only then I know it's r it's ready. Right. Yeah. And and how how it comes that you you you took the the topic of aging and not growing old or going back because that's a dream of almost everyone, I would say. not growing old and staying young and how how how did it come that that you you choose this this topic and and wrote this story? I thought about like what what is the meaning of all of this, right? So if if you had a very long life, what would the meaning of that be? And I think in a way that's what Forever Young is actually about. It's not about de-aging. Yes it is about de-aging conceptually. But from a thematic ⁓ point of view, I think it's the It's taking on responsibilities and how those responsibilities make you your life more purpose-driven and meaningful. And then another side of that is like is is finding that selflessness in you to love someone else. And and then also to face what you would do, both good and bad things, to get what you want. It's quite a layered story. It's very simplistic if you if you watch the film, it plays out. But if you really think about it afterwards. There's a lot of ⁓ subtext and conflicting ideas into it. And it's it's there because it's it's things I struggle with and think about often. Mm-hmm. And what I'm also interested in, ⁓ when we first hear about the ⁓ the cure, it's not phrased as it's a cure for aging or it's it's it's there f to reverse aging, but it's a cure for no regrets. Why did you choose to go that way instead of saying it's again it's just about reverse aging. Because it is actually about ⁓ a cure for regret. Because if if you think about it, like the only reason why you say you're a seven year old and you want your life again, one of the main reasons would be to do the things that you regret not doing. And in Robin's case it might might be not having children. And I think that a lot of people live their life to what society of the time wants us to think that life is about. And we get indoctrinated by it. But actually, you know, sometimes our forefathers or the people before us had it all figured out after all. And I think one of those things are like, I don't have children and ⁓ and it's something I think I I'm I may regret one day because I was so ambitious and I tried to pursue my goals to wherever they led me. But I think taking on that responsibility is very difficult and very that's a f very big decision. But at the end of the day it gives you purpose. And I think that's what Robin was missing. And does it have to do something personally with you? Or or it's just a general idea and and general ⁓ a story that you had in mind and you wanted to re to implement that and to maybe make it? Normally my my movies don't have so much indulgence in it the ⁓ than forever young 'cause I don't really see the point of indulging in my own life. ⁓ it's there for the audience, right? But this one actually does have it's quite a ⁓ say intimate ⁓ thing I went through when I was young. I wasn't a wanted child. ⁓ my parents didn't want me. I just you know I just happened. And they loved and embraced me and they were really good parents. But that always sits with me. And I think like, did I actually give their life more meaning? ⁓ was my is my existence as meaningful for the to them as it ⁓ as it is for me. And so I would like to think yes. But you don't know. You know, you don't know what they would have been become without this responsibility. So yes, it it's personal in that way. And how did you even come up with the story? ⁓ I sat way, way back after I just premiered a film, ⁓ I think it was still in South Africa back then and And I had a conversation with one of my friends, or and he was also a writer, and we just said, like, if you if you could live forever with you, and that's where it started, like seven, eight years ago before the the film was actually born. Mm-hmm. And we we spoke about this like maybe for an hour, with no real conclusion. At first everyone would say yes, and then you think about it. And after that conversation, I was like, ⁓ okay, cool. ⁓ yeah, it's maybe something I want to explore more and then I started writing it. And has your opinion about it I mean probably it has, 'cause you said it's been eight years. How has your opinion about the question being asked for you first has changed since you made the movie? Well, my dad always said to me, ⁓ you know, when when he dies he just wants to sleep. And I I never got what he was saying. It was my dad was a very selfless person. And what he was saying is he wanted to rest. And it needs to be tranquil. And he's done it. And at the time when I started thinking about forever young, I wanted to live forever. And now where I'm now, where I'm older, I'm like, I'm actually okay with just going. Not now, not tomorrow, but like I'm I'm not that obsessed with life anymore. I think like life is a is something that it's it's really it's spoiled on you when you're very young, because then you can do whatever you want. But when you when you get older and when your energy sort of lapses and you look at it from from a a bigger perspective, I think what happens is you realize that it's almost like a video game that we're all part of. And and once you've kind of figure out the rules to play this game and once you start playing it well, you may succeed in it. But even when you succeed, the substance of it ⁓ is almost completely missing when you achieve the goal. And then you have to achieve a new goal. And so what is that That's substance if you know you're gonna live forever. If you if you know you're gonna live forever like Shirley, then there's no there's no actual substance to the thought of death anymore. And to me that's that's quite meaningless because now what does it matter to get up? What does it matter because you know in a in a way you could you could all figure it out tomorrow. And would you yourself take novas? For the listeners and viewers who are asking what is novas, so watch the movie and find out. So would you take the novas yourself? I would I would take novices. ⁓ and and you know, i it's probably in contradiction of what I just said, but I would absolutely take it. And I I'll probably take it for a good century. ⁓ I mean I I enjoy the idea that you can you you can decide when to die or not not to. But I think ultimately I'll stop taking it. I I think I would I would take it too that's that's also ⁓ yeah, me too. Yeah. But also it's this is kind of the or one of the first times we're asking ourselves this question. So maybe in the next couple of years that also changes. Oops. No, I was just asking. I think the the the reason ⁓ why why would you guys take it? I would take it because I have some regrets in my life as as also in in a movie that I would to not redo it but somehow to correct it ⁓ in that particular situation. I don't I I I know that that with novice I could be younger but the time doesn't go back. So I hope for that that I could I could do it but I would do a lot of things differently that I did in my young ⁓ younger ages so that's why I would take that because because now I I'm living with the consequences that for for that thing that I did in younger ages and it's not comfortable for me. So I would I would do that differently. So and for me, it's like I would just really like to have more time right now for all the things that I want to do. Like right now I'm very much ⁓ focused on my career and working all the time. And I would really like to have some additional time to spend with family and friends and Or to just rest as well or discover new hobbies. No. So like a couple more years would be nice just just in the state where I am right now. Yeah, yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. But I I I believe that's not growing old or preventing to growing old or becoming becoming younger and going back to to younger ages would prevent us from the experiences that we could have in older ages. I'm also thinking you you don't really know what's ahead of you, if the the times then are better or if the state you're in right now is better. So you can only really go off of what's happening now. And if you like that version of yourself and of your surroundings, then it makes sense to say, ⁓ I would like to stay here a little longer. Yeah, it's it's it's true. Both of those things are true. I think the fragility of it all, you know. So like I used to be able to play much better tennis than I play now. And what that taught me was to become a better competitor because I know now that I don't have the shots anymore to kill the opponent. So how do I out fox them, right? So this is something you you you learn through ⁓ fragility. I'm very curious because because the movie Forever Young has a specific storyline but v many, many substories that are going on in that movie tell us What was your choice at the center of forever young that represents beyond simply a staying young? But what what was your main focus? You you gave us some hints in this conversation until now about that, but did we didn't go through that ⁓ in in in more detail. So if if I I'm very curious to know. Well, every character that's face with ⁓ being young. It's got a different motivation for taking the medicine, right? So you've got Oscar, which he doesn't want to take it because he's got no regrets and he's ⁓ he's okay with dying. Then you have Robin, which has a regret, and she wants him to take it with her because it involves him. So she's got and and we spoke about Robin's journey ⁓ already. And then you've got more characters like the Anna Wolf character and which She's taking it because she wants to lose her habit and she wants to reconnect with her dad and she wants to let go of her addiction to other drugs. And then then you have Jane as a character who wants to take it because she's obsessed with the exterior and how she looks. And so all of these characters represent someone in society and it shows you like, okay, well, if you pursue this, maybe That's what will happen to you. And if you pursue that, that's maybe what will happen to you. And it's not it's not a judgment, it's just stories where all of these things I I don't believe it's it's interesting. I like I always think about personality. Like you ask me, who am I? It's very difficult for me to answer because it's like we we we sort of choose who we are to who we talk to. Like, yes, you are the same person, and you know, maybe you ta take pride in being honest and you try to be honest all the time, which I try. But Like at the core, it's still taking on our identity. And I think that every one of us is the sum of all humanity. And you sort of choose in the moment or year to year, either consciously or unconsciously to become something or something on. So that thing is like it's almost one person's perspective about ageing reflected in a couple of characters. I'm curious that that also spark conversations on set when you were working on the movie? Well yeah, that ⁓ the idea of not ⁓ of being able to take ⁓ it also upset people, you know, 'cause you're working with ⁓ amazing actors like Bernard Hill and ⁓ un unfortunately he he passed away ⁓ relatively recently. This was his last big role in the movie, you know, so it was very unfortunate. But he was upset about it because he he felt that it couldn't exist quick enough for him to take it, you know. And So the idea of this formula being there you saw as absolute fantasy and not real. 'Cause that that's how him as a person opposed to the character he played, Oscar, thought about it. And then you would have other people that would just be like really honest about it and say, Wish I was, you know, born thirty years younger so that I could take it because I think it will be a reality, ⁓ in my lifetime or certainly the next generation, that we can choose to live longer. ⁓ whether it's a formula or whether we we upload our consciousness onto a machine, I'm I'm not too sure about that. But I think that that possibility will exist soonish. And it is actually quite scientifically possible for us not to age or to de age even, ⁓ if you look at it on a cellular level. So it's not a fantasy in that sense. It's it's actually something that we'll be faced with. When when did you realize that the meaning of the movie, the the story that you wanted to tell was revealed in the movie itself? A particular scene or a particular moment or so that you that you thought, okay, now I have what I wanted to tell. So now this moment is the the golden moment for me. I I don't have a I I'm not a person that has a message to the film. ⁓ I I sort of ask questions and I want people to formulate their own answers. So I'm I'm not not someone that wants to preach in movies. But ⁓ I think that it landed for me personally when I was watching it ⁓ with the last edit. The script was actually different to the last edit, but the last edit was it landed for me when ⁓ w in the last scene ⁓ of of the movie where Oscar tells Robin why he has no regrets. And he insists and he forgives her. And in that moment I was like, Okay, cool. So actually that's why I wanted to make this. It's because I I maybe regret the way I spoke to my father or ⁓ especially how I viewed my father. And when he when he passed away, I was in a in this state where I actually saw him for who he was and the man he was. And now I respect him. I've always respected him, but now I respect him For really who he was, and I really get him. And that sort of is a regret that I have. So in order to understand my father, this this film is, like I said, it's my most indulgent piece. Is actually he's very much like Oscar. And I wanted to make it to understand him better. It was just after his death that I ⁓ wrote the ⁓ few final drafts of it. And and so so yeah, I think that's why I made it is to understand someone better that I didn't really get. So before we continue, ⁓ if this conversation has made you curious about Forever Young, you can watch it on Aleph Cineestream. Aleph Cineestream is a curated streaming platform for independent movies from all around the world. And when we say created, we really mean it. We're not trying to build the biggest catalogue possible. ⁓ we look for every movie that has something to say, a stories that can surprise you, move you, challenge you, or simply a stay with you after they're over. Forever Young is exactly that kind of movie. So if you want to experience the story behind today's conversation, and if you want to decide for yourself if you would choose to stay young if you had that choice, you can watch Forever Young now on Alif Cena Stream. It's at ac minus stream dot com. So now back to the conversation. Hank, your cast is a very extraordinary cast. They are amazing and they they portray the characters in the best possible way. How did you convince these people to trust you with their story? ⁓ actors are are quite especially when they quite well established, are very easy to talk to once they read a script and like it. So you offer it to them and if they read the script they they'll have a conversation with you. And all I always do is I just tell them I firstly tell them exactly how I work as a director. So they are in safe hands. And it's a very disciplined set, but it's a very ⁓ s it's like a relaxed set, a structured set. There's always a relaxed one. And so they know it's going to be a professional production. So it's important for them because, you know, they don't want to waste their time. And then secondly, what's important to recognizable bigger actors is they want to know that you're gonna take charge of the story in its whole and you're gonna do it justice. So I tell them why I want to do it and give them a short ⁓ overview of how I'm going to do it. And then from there I I take on the role as a director and I direct him. But I before that I have a very sort of personal conversation with them where I also speak to them about get to know them a little bit better and all that. I believe that Every actor in the world actually is is different and you should work with them in a different way. And you don't have a very long time on set because it's so it's so quick, you know. So sometimes I'll see an actor and I'll be like, ⁓ okay, I should just I should work a lot with positive reinforcement. I should never say something negative because they get ⁓ obsessed with themselves or they they get too self analytical. And then I'll work with positive enforcement. And sometimes you'll have an actor that wants you to criticize them because they want that sort of coach to person relationship. I'm not so keen on doing that, but I will do it, ⁓ if it helps. And then some ⁓ like to intellectualize it first and then to really relax in the role and then what you do is you just support them in it. ⁓ and then some of the actors like to direct me while I'm directing them. And ⁓ it's quite irritating to be honest, but I let them. And it's d you know, with with those kind of actors is like ⁓ they're usually insecure and they don't know what they're doing and they don't know what ⁓ and and and and they're usually much better than they think they are. But they're in a position where they have to take control, otherwise this is gonna be a flop. And the way I direct them is ⁓ or ⁓ work with them is I let them direct me and then up to a point and then I go no. but I have to keep control of the production. So it's it's it's a very interesting dynamic with these these actors. I won't tell you who's who but the ⁓ every actor wants to wants you actually to work with them in a different way. And to figure that out is quite soon is is the best. And then to also find the ones you really deal with and to do something again with them. And I always find it like the oddest thing is like the bigger the actor, the easier it is to work with them. Normally. You know? It's like the more known they are. Like I just I I I can't tell you who, but like I just worked with an A list ⁓ actor in another ⁓ project I'm doing, the easiest conversations I've ever had. It's just like, okay, cool, this and that, whatever. And they would give me ⁓ some suggestions and they would be really amazing and I could learn from them. So it's that balance between making someone feel comfortable and and also ⁓ being assertive, I think that you have to find. In your email that that we talked, you also said that you made this project independently without any studios backing it, without any any other support or anything else. ⁓ how how how was this process? was there a moment or a time that you thought for a very young looked impossible to make? Yeah, so just to be honest, I didn't make it without backing. ⁓ I made it with the backing of my business partner at the time, ⁓ that I had a production company with. So it was ⁓ it was a collective effort in making it. There was a few times where ⁓ we just got a big budget together and then COVID happened and we had to stop and couldn't make it. So that was one of the situations where it was really bad. And the script was way bigger. And so yeah, it was a few times where I think it will never happen. But because I I've made eleven feature films, I know that that's going to happen. I know we're going to go through overconfidence, then self-doubt, then overconfidence. It's like a a roller coaster of emotions until finally it happens because in a way a independent making an independent film is a miracle. And sometimes you would say a miracle that should not have happened. But that's maybe a story for another day. But yeah, so ⁓ so that's that's that's how I felt. And ⁓ did you have to sacrifice or compromise in a couple of ways to get this movie made? Or were were there also things that you didn't want to compromise on? Yeah, I'm I'm always open to adapt. I had to rewrite the entire script 'cause the script was very big and it was a completely different ⁓ screenplayer. I think I could do it now with a hybrid model between AI and actual actors, which I ⁓ which I would have pursued if I could today. But the the script was way bigger than than the final movie. I had to figure out what is the core story. What is the things that if I take that out, the story falls away. And it literally is about a cure for regret. So everything that has to do with that thematic has to stay. And everything that doesn't and just simply makes the production budget bigger had to go. And so I had to rewrite it ⁓ quite a few times and I actually had a huge actor attached to the previous version. And I had to let them go 'cause the budget went down. So it's it's a it's a pity, you know, in in that sense, because the bigger your actor is or the more recognizable they are, the more distributors will say yes to it and the bigger the film could be. But at the same time, like if you choose the an actor just for that reason y you you might let go of the integrity of the piece, which was not the case. The actor that was attached to it would have done a great job. But it's it's a weird balance. ⁓ and so yeah, I I I had to compromise and adapt. And did the characters change a lot ⁓ with the rewriting of the script then? So yeah, characters always change when you rewrite a script, but they sort of a l a lot of people don't need all the characters in the script. So what you do is you take two characters and you merge them into one. So e each character has a function. It's got a a character arc, right? So if you see this character doesn't have an arc or that character is saying the same thing as that other character, you can actually merge them into one. So it's a the more you understand script theory, the better your your writing can become. Yeah. So Yeah, you ⁓ you made eleven features until now and you have a successful successful career in directing and writing. ⁓ I'm very interested to ask because I know many filmmakers, many writers, many directors that are not successful and they are still struggling to make their first or second feature or even even make any any shorts or anything. So if you were starting a game today without reputation, without network, without with very little money, would you still choose this career that you have today? No, I wouldn't. I I wouldn't be a filmmaker if I could choose again. ⁓ is is one of my regrets actually. ⁓ okay. Even though yeah, yeah. And I'm I'm sure that's not what you wanted to hear, but I I wouldn't do it. And the the reason for that is it's not based on merit. My biggest issue with the industry is that it's not based on people that actually are successful. It's based on propaganda and other stuff that you can't have any control over. And I completely against that because ⁓ I I grew up in apartheid and was terrible and the reason why it was terrible it wasn't based on the content of your character. It wasn't based on merit. It ⁓ took ⁓ it pushed people down. It was never supposed to be pushed down on on things they they had no control over. And I see the world doing it again and I'm completely against it. So no, I wouldn't do it. ⁓ I would be in business, ⁓ I would make a lot of money and I would employ people on the basis of merit because that's how we evolve as a species. And the problem with film is it's such a subjective medium. So, you know, you would go to someone and be like, Okay, well, what's the best film ever made? And they'll be like, ⁓ the best film ever made is, you know, some art film that nobody watched. And that might be the best film that was ever made to you. And even me, I have films like that that nobody else watched except me. Okay, fine. It's not the best film ever made. The best film ever made is the film that was made on the lowest budget that made the most money. And it's only if we really figure that out, that we're going to see ourselves being able to compete against the creator economy, which is already figured it out. So you look at like a YouTube creator, like he's obsessed about his retention. He looks at all the data. He looks at every single data point. And he makes his entertainment more entertaining. And therefore he works. And therefore he's four times probably four times as ⁓ wealthy as the biggest actors in the world. So if you have something someone like that, And he only cares about the retention of his audience. How could we compete in the film industry against the creator economy if we're not obsessed about making our movies as engaging as possible for our target market? And that's not what's been happening. And then secondly, why I wouldn't choose this profession is the streamers came in and the streamers took away our power to show that we have a film that actually works. So If you look at a movie, my my earlier films called Buck Hut, no streamer would touch that movie. But then I took it to cinema and it made X amount of money and it made a huge return on investment. And then everyone wanted to buy it for me. So I had a I had a cinema that I could prove my worth. And where we're now is like now someone at a streamer's office looks at the data of stuff that already happened and they try to repeat that success based on data. Now I'm all for data and looking at data, but you have to still innovate. You have to still go to new creators and see what they have and test that. So we have to figure out how do we test our content before we invest a lot of money in it. And so that's something I want to solve, and that's what I'm solving going forward, is I think we can learn a hell of a lot from the creator economy. And to be honest with you, we should stop our self indulgence in ourselves. We should stop all these awards and film festivals. And we should make stuff that actually entertains the audience. Otherwise, we will lose this industry. And what already happened is microdramas are taking over. Now, all a micro drama is is a something that goes onto social media, it builds an audience, aimed at people that actually want to watch it, with the thematics that people actually want to watch it, pushes you to you download an app and then, you know, you watch the rest there and it actually works financially. Now it's it you know, it's it's gonna plateau and it will go busk at some point, but we can learn a lot from that model. ⁓ you know. So yeah, I don't I don't think I don't think the film world is ⁓ I I think the film world's done, to be honest with you. I think it's done. Well Okay, very interesting. I'm totally with you. Nowadays, the bigger your network is on social media, the more successful you are. And everything is about having a network and having having a a social media following ⁓ amount ⁓ that's that make ⁓ make a movie or ⁓ a series successful. You told us ⁓ why you woo wouldn't choose this career as your career if if you could choose if if if you wanted to start again for ⁓ today. So what is your wish that someone told you when you were young and you wanted to choose this career? What was what what is your wish for someone to give you the advice when as you were young before choosing this career? I I I I would say that that person should go to a psychologist and ask why they want to do it. ⁓ you should really figure out why you want to do something before you invest time and effort into it. Because what it actually is in your head most probably is not what the reality is. Like when I went on this journey into become a filmmaker, I thought it was In the end, the actual data would show that I can do this and entertain an audience and then I would give get bigger opportunities. That is not what happens. So even when you have made at some point I've made I think five successful independent movies over and over that made money. And even with that track record, I couldn't get an agent in Hollywood. And I find that very weird because the chances of an independent film to make money is is literally by a distributor's calculation, point zero one percent. And I've done it five times in a row. So when you've done that and you see that, ⁓ you know, actually you should not not have chosen that subject matters, even though it's clearly what people want to see and what people want to watch. You you get to a point where you're like, okay, cool. So actually just making films, you're taking money from people, promising them a return, making something that you're not sure about. For your own indulgence, like forever youngest, like I said, most ⁓ indulgent film I've made. And then after that, you struggle to show any sort of return and you burn bridges and everyone is angry at each other because nobody, you know, actually got money out of it. Now, I'm not saying like everything should be about money or making money. We should still have ⁓ a grassroots place where people can experiment and originate. But there should be a system in place if we want to, if we're serious about this. If we if you want to actually, you know, have a career in filmmaking, there should be a system in place. There should be a place where you can experiment on low, low, low, low micro micro budget, proof that you are worthy, possi possibly proof that you're worthy on YouTube first. Then when you're worthy, you really understand script writing, then you get you you get a shot at it, you know? And if it works and it finds its audience at Netflix or whatever, then great. Okay, cool. Now you can go on and direct some stuff. But there should be like Steps, you know, th like we don't even have a ladder to climb up. So I would say like it's not a the problem is not up down, the problem is top down. What I would do is I would say, look at a South African rugby team, okay, go and research it. We are so great in what we do because we got a grassroots system. We actually take people like in like ⁓ places where they almost can't get out of and circumstances they actually can't get out of. And then we train them from very young to be great rugby players. And then eventually we've got a great team. You've got to put systems in place. And also the other thing is you've got Netflix on this side and you've got TikTok on this side. Why don't you have a bridge between those two? Why is there no channel on TikTok with with ⁓ young creators that is going to that are tested, their projects are tested on TikTok? To one day do long form on Netflix. And on the other way around, why does Netflix not have a channel dedicated to TikTok shorts? Focus on short form, you do it great, but have Netflix help you with the longer form and have a partnership between you guys where you test the guys on TikTok and then eventually or the people on TikTok and eventually they become go to Netflix. It's like we don't have any vision. It's like we we're cu we're we're people running around thinking like we're gonna solve the world and You know, ⁓ now it's microdramas and tomorrow it's horrors and you know the day after that sci-fi. But nobody's actually looking at it and going, ⁓ okay, cool. Why why don't we trust the ⁓ you know, like like treat it as a business and look for the strategy and figure out how to actually grow filmmakers that are interested in entertaining people and then get them to do long form in Netflix. That bridge is missing. So if I would go into film, if I'm a young filmmaker, Now, I would say start on YouTube, figure out how to engage a target market. And if you want to do art films, great. All art films are filmed for older people. So, you know, take older people as your target market, engage them, make sure that you understand storytelling in the cheapest way possible. And until you do, don't make a film. And when you do, start making a film, start making a film. But with that, you learn. You learn about audience. You learn what people actually want to watch. And then you can combine that with what you're making. Now Every time I do that and I follow my same advice, I do a film that people actually want watch. Every every time I don't, I struggle. And I have a film that ⁓ little people watch. So, you know, ⁓ I'm not I'm not perfect, but that's what I would say. That's amazing. That's amazing. So ⁓ we will we will ⁓ stick to that ⁓ later, ⁓ to this to this what you say because ⁓ I I have also now ⁓ a very interesting, crazy ideas. So ⁓ we are slowly ⁓ moving towards a closing ⁓ and the ending of this episode. So Hank, ⁓ if today someone watches for a very hard, what do you hope they take away from it? I I hope they they they figure out what they regret and make a conscious effort to get that right before they die, I suppose. It's it's like the the fantasy of having a life forever is like, well, what what would you change? And most people still have time to change it and I I hope they they do. And is there a story, a movie, or even a personal experience ⁓ of you that change the way you see people? There's so many. There's so many, you know, ⁓ people are so many Shades of good and bad and everything mixed together that there's so many experiences. You know, you walk your dog and have a conversation and it changes. So I think what what an experience that stands out with people is like you never know anyone, including yourself. You you don't know. You don't know before you're faced with something how you're gonna react to something. And to me, I've been faced with ⁓ some people that That has done some incredible things and some awful things when they're faced with a real crisis. And I think that's what defines you as a person. And so yeah, I I don't I don't really have more than that now to offer. Amazing, Hank. Yeah, thank you so much for joining us and for taking us behind Forever Young, but also beyond it. I think today's conversation left us with a question: Is there anything in our lives that we Might regret later and ⁓ since we're discovering it now, ⁓ would we change it so that we don't have any regrets. And if you like to experience the story that's inspired today's conversation, you can watch Forever Young on Aleph Cine Stream at www.ac-stream.com. And we'd also love to hear from you. If you had the chance to stay young, would you take it? Tell us in the comments. A new episode of Beyond Our Stories comes out every Thursday. So subscribe or follow wherever you're watching or listening. If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd really appreciate if you follow the podcast, left a review and shared this conversation with someone who might need to hear it. Every story begins on the screen, but it continues within us. Thank you for joining us and we'll see you next Thursday on Beyond Our Stories. A new episode of Beyond Our Stories comes out every Thursday. 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