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Dean Dwyer: Everlasting Covenants vs Temporary Peace Process · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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  defending biblical Christianity.
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  No topic, off limits.
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  And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
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  Friends, we're going all the way over to Australia for this episode where one of my favorite
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  brothers from there, actually one of my only brothers that I know, I know we have more
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  brothers and sisters there, but Dean Dwyer, I'll introduce him in a minute, but I want
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  to point out his page at Harbinger's Daily and you can find out, it's just some good
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  information on him, some great articles, great writing, I love this brother, I love his
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  voice, that's why I continue to have him on the podcast.
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  And one of his most recent articles, The Right and Wrong Way to Wait for Jesus imminent
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  return, also he's the pastor at Iser Street Baptist Church, is it Iser Street Baptist Church
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  Dean Dwyer?
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  It is.
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  Good day from Australia, good to see you David.
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  So good to see you.
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  Now, when you, when I say Harbinger's Daily, do you say Harbinger's Daily?
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  Is that close?
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  It's pretty close, yeah, look, we've probably reached the point where we can try to train
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  you to say, good, I might.
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  Good, I might.
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  Very lazy with your tongue to speak Australian.
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  Yeah.
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  And speak it a lazy, unfortunately we're going to talk about being spiritually lazy and
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  talk about Australia and America.
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  And what we're going to focus on though today, friends, I want you to direct you to Harbinger's
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  Daily.
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  And several weeks ago, Dean wrote about the Abraham Accords and the Abrahamic covenant.
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  There it is.
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  We're going back to because of what the peace process, with what President Trump just
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  accomplished, which some would say it's miraculous between Israel and Hamas.
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  I mean, no one thought this was possible, but anyway, the dealmaker worked us out.
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  But before we do that, Dean, I want to go back briefly to the podcast we did together.
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  I think it was in July.
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  And the title was the downward spiritual spiral in Australia and America.
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  That's interesting.
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  So get July, August, September, October, actually August, September, Charlie Kirk gets assassinated.
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  We're seeing more people go to church, we're seeing Bible sales increase.
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  What was the percentage of that?
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  Some really crazy 40, almost 42% increase in Bible sales.
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  Spiritual app downloads are up 79%.
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  More people are coming back to church.
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  Young people are searching for answers.
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  We're at a very interesting time.
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  So I want to ask you about your perception of how now Charlie Kirk wasn't as popular
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  in Australia to be sure.
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  But you said before we got on the podcast, some people were impacted.
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  There were even memorials there.
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  Tell us a little bit about that because this is a global look at how God is moving.
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  We don't know everything that He's doing and what the Holy Spirit is up to completely.
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  But we can see signs across the globe.
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  So tell us a little bit about Australia.
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  Australia, as we've talked about in the past, is a very unusual spiritual landscape in
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  that Australians are pretty laid back and have a pretty comfortable lifestyle.
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  A lot of people live along the coastline of Australia.
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  So their lifestyle is pretty much based on sunshine and the ocean and the beach and
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  really trying to have a good time with our temperate weather, beautiful beaches and scenic
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  attractions.
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  Unfortunately, what that does is that occupies Australians with a lot of temporal interests
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  and a lot of material interests.
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  So the spiritual landscape in Australia, particularly post-World War II, there was a bit of a bump
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  in terms of interest in faith after World War II, particularly when we had some really
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  great evangelists within the Australian spiritual landscape.
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  But probably since then and certainly from the 70s onwards, it's Australia's seen
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  a decline in an interest in Christianity, particularly as secular humanism has taken
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  holes.
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  Australia, as we talked about a little bit about last time, is in the grip of probably
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  a communist and socialist phase because we do have an openly communist prime minister
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  at the helm who's trying to form a pretty tight relationship with China, much of course
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  to the dismay of our US relationship.
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  But once the event, the sad event with Charlie Kirk happened, we really did see an outpouring
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  of grief in Australia.
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  It did impact a lot of Australians quite heavily.
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  My wife was one, she was deeply saddened as was I and a number of people in our congregation
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  as well.
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  So in our town here, we did have a small memorial for Charlie and I know that there were others
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  held throughout Australia as well.
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  So it was an event that really reached into our shores as well.
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  Now I've seen some of the pictures coming out from America that there was an increase
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  in attendance in the Sunday's following Charlie's assassination.
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  And to some degree, that was true of Australia, but certainly not to the degree that it's
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  been true of America.
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  So again, as we talked about before, the show began, what's it going to take for Australians
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  to wake up?
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  And that's really the question.
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  And sometimes that can be the frightening question to ask yourself because what is it really
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  going to take to shape people from their comfortable life?
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  And when we know the future tribulation period is going to do that to a very large degree,
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  but this side of the rapture, as much as we share the gospel, we talk about faith, we
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  talk about current events, Australians still seem to be in that spiritual stupor where
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  there may be not a lot getting through.
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  So it does feel like we're not making headway too much in Australia, and on we're standing
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  the very serious events throughout the world.
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  And of course, unfortunately, like many nations, there is a lot of any semitism in Australia.
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  There's a lot of pro-Palestine protests going on, even now.
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  And so that's hard to work against as well.
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  Why do we talk about this, friends, why, I mean, we, I mean, you might think it's redundant,
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  but we will be talking about Charlie Kirk and this impact for a long time.
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  Why?
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  We're not idolizing Charlie Kirk.
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  He wasn't a pastor.
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  Turning point USA is not a church, a religious organization.
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  But Charlie Kirk had a biblical worldview, and it's the same things that we talk about
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  on this show, the same things that all of our guests that come on this podcast have and
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  hold to, and that is now considered hate speech.
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  We have to grasp where we are now worldwide, and especially in American.
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  I've asked this question for the last couple of years, or more, maybe a dean.
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  What is it going to take?
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  I'd speculate with other pastors, bring them on.
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  So if the church is lukewarm, if biblical illiteracy is climbing, and people are just
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  not in their Bible or passionate, are sharing the gospel, what is it going to take to wake
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  us up?
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  We are too comfortable here.
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  And so this might be a catalyst.
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  What we are experiencing and seeing now, it might be a catalyst.
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  God is up to something.
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  There's no denying that.
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  We don't know what we can speculate.
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  We mention anti-Semitism.
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  A lot of us were disappointed.
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  I was going to say furious to see what happened on college campuses in America, but we know.
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  We shouldn't surprise us because we know the professors and the school administrators,
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  we know their worldview.
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  It is anti-Christ.
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  It is against the Bible, the biblical worldview, against Western values, and against evens
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  to some degree our constitution, definitely against Israel.
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  And so we should not be surprised, but I guess the way the media promoted it and started
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  highlighting these protests, and I'm tired of hearing it.
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  I really am.
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  And I think a lot of Christians in America, we've got to make a decision and I know I'm preaching
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  to the choir dean.
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  So let's talk about your article.
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  Do you want to go back to 2020 when the Abraham Accords were signed at the White House?
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  I mean, that was another thing that few people thought was going to happen in a few
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  saw coming.
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  So where do you want to start?
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  Amen.
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  Yes.
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  So just over five years ago, these were landmark accords.
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  Now in the past, obviously the formula has been to try and solve this intractable problem
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  in the Middle East is to give land for peace.
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  Now we saw how much of a dismal failure that has been.
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  And particularly since we've seen through the disengagement process in Gaza, that for
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  the last 20 years, all Hamas has done as dig tunnels and build a tyrannest.
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  So it's become pretty evident, hopefully, to the bulk of the world that this formula
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  at land for peace does not actually equal peace.
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  So in some degree, the Abraham Accords was a landmark achievement in that it pivoted
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  to something very different, which was trying to build integration and diffusing tensions
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  throughout the hostile Middle East by bringing together some economic integration and trying
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  to find a commonality there so that all nations could focus on a secure foundation and
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  build a relationship from there.
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  And so this is what the Abraham Accords sought to do.
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  It sought to bring back to a common foundation, which of course, as it's so named, is Abraham,
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  the patriarch of the three monotheistic faiths.
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  And so the hope and so there's been some positivity in terms of the Accords is that from that
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  commonality, there will be relationship building and in Trump's own words, if there's some
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  integration there, there can be a prosperous Middle East going forward.
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  So we have to focus on some of the positives that came from those Accords in that it has
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  to a degree allowed some normalization between Israel and some of its hostile neighbours.
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  And it allows some increase in trade so that there is some prosperity, which allows some
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  of the poorer regions within the Middle East to advance and hopefully they will advance
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  past terror and they'll advance past ideological extremism and hopefully become more civilized
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  in their approach and their approach not only to Israel but to the greater world as
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  well.
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  So this really was a landmark achievement in that degree.
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  And so when Trump talks about the advancement of the Abraham Accords, I know the other
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  day he talked about Iran potentially becoming a signatory, which I thought was probably
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  more optimism than realism, but there's one thing you can't accuse Trump of, it's not
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  being an optimist.
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  Yeah.
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  That's true.
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  That's true.
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  When Iran comes into the picture, you kind of go, well, but you know, I mean, who knows?
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  I mean, again, this has got to be something that God is working through imperfect people.
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  He has definitely sovereign over all these things, but I've said on a couple of other
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  episodes on this topic, you know, terrorists aren't good at keeping promises and working
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  for peace because their worldview just is the opposite.
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  They need to conquer.
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  They need to control, right?
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  And that's the whole thing about Islam, wipe Israel off the map.
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  They want that whole territory.
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  So who knows how it's going to go, but we're in exciting times, prophetic times.
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  Dean, I want to touch based on, because you write about this in your article.
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  And I'll just frame it by saying, when I read the Old Testament and some references in
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  the New Testament, I read everlasting covenant.
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  I mean, God has a everlasting covenant.
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  Everlasting is forever.
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  So he has covenant with Israel did not stop when the New Testament was written.
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  Let's just pause right there and think about that.
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  And now go ahead and share whatever you'd like to as we remind our viewers and our listeners
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  that this is God's covenant, God's heart for Israel has not changed.
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  Go ahead, Dean.
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  I made four points in that article and you're right to bring up the word everlasting because
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  I think when people come along with a different eschatological worldview, and particularly
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  when we talk about replacement theology or superstitionism, all of a sudden everlasting
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  doesn't mean everlasting because Israel's cast aside in favor of the church.
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  Now the point I make to people is that if everlasting doesn't mean everlasting, then we're in
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  trouble when it comes to John 3, 16 because we're promised everlasting life.
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  So why does the terminology all of a sudden or what is the definitional of a sudden
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  change between the Old and the New?
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  God says something's everlasting in John 3, 16, then we have to apply the same definition
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  to how he speaks about his covenant.
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  So in the article, I made four very good points, which was one fulfillment of the covenant
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  depends on God's faithfulness, not Israel's.
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  And we're talking obviously about the Abrahamic covenant and its unconditional nature.
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  So this is one of the very reassuring things for Israel, for God's chosen people, is that
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  the covenant depends on God's faithfulness, not Israel's.
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  And so what we need to impress upon people, and particularly those who hold to a superstitionist
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  view, is that Israel's rejection of Messiah did not cancel the Abrahamic covenant.
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  It did not cancel its terms, it did not void it, did not unknow it.
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  It is still in effect because it's unconditional in nature, and it depends on God's faithfulness,
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  not Israel's.
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  So what we often remind people is that when the offer of the kingdom was made, the kingdom
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  was not canceled.
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  It was postponed.
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  And we know that there will be a future kingdom when the remnant of Israel received Jesus
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  Christ as king and Messiah, and he sets up his rule and reign from Jerusalem.
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  So in summary, first point is the Abrahamic covenant remains in effect because of its unconditional
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  nature.
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  I like that.
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  Love it.
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  And I also love that you emphasize, and this is so good, friend, simple truth that it
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  depends on, covenants depend on God's faithfulness, not Israel's.
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  And we obviously know Israel has not always been faithful.
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  I mean, there's a whole record of their history of unfaithfulness and rebellion in pride,
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  everything else in the Old Testament.
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  Go ahead, Dean.
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  Go ahead, whatever point you want to go to next.
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  The second point I made is that the covenant is not canceled because of Israel's sinfulness.
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  Now we know that God has chastened Israel over many centuries, but he's not cast away
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  his people.
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  Now we know, and I referenced the tribulation period, that is going to be the means by which
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  he breaks Israel's rebellion and brings a covenant back to him.
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  But he never has nor never will terminate his relationship with his people Israel.
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  And we can be assured of that both in the Old Testament and the New because we look
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  at passages in Daniel and Zechariah.
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  We also look at Romans 11, which is one of the most important passages in the Bible where
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  it concerns Israel, Romans 9, 10, and 11 affirm that God is not finished with Israel.
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  And so despite the fact that Israel has been in rebellion and in sin and obviously remains
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  in rebellion because it has rejected Jesus as Messiah.
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  The fact remains that that doesn't annul the covenant.
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  And in addition to that, you look at the terms of the Abrahamic covenant, particularly
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  there are three branches to it, a land seed and blessing.
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  Now the land component of the covenant is basically overlooked by a lot of people because
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  of the political expediency.
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  But we've also got, behind all of that, we've got something called the land covenant
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  as well, which was introduced in around Deuteronomy 29 and 30.
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  So often that's sometimes called the Palestinian covenant, but we'd like to call it the land
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  covenant because if you call it the Palestinian covenant, covenant in today's politics, that
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  somewhat suggests perhaps there's a covenant with the current people who self-identifies
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  Palestinians.
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  Right.
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  We want to steer away from that confusion that's right.
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  So we call it the land covenant.
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  So there's really two great expressions of God's promises to Israel in terms of the land
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  in the Abrahamic covenant and the land covenant.
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  And so in all of the discussions that are taking place around the Abrahamic chords and around
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  how Israel is integrated into the region, this is what is forgotten that God has made promises
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  ever lasting promises to Israel in relation to their relationship to the land.
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  So the next point, I just want to move you along because we're already at 10 minutes
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  to go here.
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  Talk to us about the Israel church distinction.
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  Amen.
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  So important to make and because we know that the covenants are to be interpreted literally
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  and this was one of my third points.
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  And we know that we have, there's generally two interpretive methods when you look at
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  the Bible.
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  We know there's an allegorical method which we reject and we know that there's another
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  hermeneutic principle which works on a consistent literal historical grammatical interpretation
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  of the Bible, which is what we lean to.
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  So unfortunately if you're taking an allegorical method then it's hermeneutic is not consistent
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  and unfortunately what you generally end up with then is replacement theology.
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  So because the covenant has to be interpreted literally that should lead you to dispensational
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  teaching which continues to maintain an Israel church distinction.
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  Now a lot of people will accuse us of saying there's two ways, we're promoting two ways
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  of salvation but that's not true whatsoever.
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  God has two distinct programs for his people and so we have to reaffirm that Israel is
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  part of his plan in the past, in the present and also in the future, Romans 9, 10 and 11.
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  So it becomes very convenient to a lot of people to hold to a supercessionist view and
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  blur the lines between the Israel church distinction because prior to 1948 perhaps
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  people might not have seen it as much but in the post-48 world when Israel was reborn
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  as a nation then it started to raise a lot of questions particularly within the framework
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  of hermeneutic principle that people had to come back to the notion that well Israel
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  is here and they're back in the land and there's still a people in spite of all of the odds
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  over thousands of years.
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  Against all odds.
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  Yeah.
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  That's exactly right.
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  So when you read the Bible literally and you adopt a proper hermeneutic you can come
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  to no other conclusion that there is an Israel church distinction and God has not finished
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  with his people Israel.
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  Yeah and you make it in point number four you again emphasize the fact that the covenant
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  cannot be broken by Israel's sinfulness.
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  Do you want to share anything else before we go on on that point Dean?
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  Now I think we've covered all that we need to and as I said people can go to Romans 9, 10
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  and 11 for that confirmation from the very word itself.
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  Romans 9 through 11 just like Ken Ham as I always talking about Genesis 1 through 11 go
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  to Romans 9 through 11 very important chapters friends in the New Testament in the book of
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  Romans.
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  So Dean for those people we have a lot of people that are not watching the podcast.
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  We have a lot of different outlets that were on platforms.
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  A lot of people are listening in their car right now.
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  Would you mind use quoted Genesis 17, 7 and 8 in your article?
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  Would you mind walking us through that just reading that and going to your next point?
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  Sure.
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  So Genesis 17 7 through 8 very clearly says and it confirms once again the everlasting
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  nature of the covenant.
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  And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you in
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  their generations for an everlasting covenant.
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  To be God to you and your descendants after you.
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  Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger,
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  all the land of Canaan as an everlasting possession and I will be their God.
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  So you read and you touched on this earlier in the podcast David you read that word everlasting
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  a number of times within that and we also read the words and their descendants.
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  So this is an ongoing promise and as I said this is an unconditional covenant in nature.
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  So it's not canceled to any degree.
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  So when we talk about the Abraham Accords obviously the intention was to bring the relationship
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  back to a commonality which was patriarchal Abraham but as we know because we have nations
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  within the framework of the Accords which are Islamic even though they might revere Abraham
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  as a patriarch within their faith very quickly the commonalities end because Islam obviously
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  is extremely different in nature as a religious system as a political religious system to the
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  faith that we have in God the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
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  And so this is something once again that the nations and many people even sometimes within
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  Christianity have forgotten that the Abrahamic covenant is still in effect.
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  Israel is not occupying all of the land which is promised to it.
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  It will in the millennial kingdom but let's not forget that tiny Israel in God's eyes
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  when he gives all of the land grants it's not going to be tiny Israel.
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  It's going to be quite a large territory.
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  This is the principle that's forgotten in amongst all of the conversations at any
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  national level.
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  Thank you for bringing that up because some people that are not maybe well versed on
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  Scripture here someone that's a Muslim say well we believe in Abraham too you know not
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  the same, not the same covenant not the same way.
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  I do want to mention you also cite in your article Psalm 105 verses 8 through 12 but
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  105 verse 8 says he remembers God, God remembers his covenant forever.
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  The word which he commanded for a thousand generations.
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  I mean there's a lot there's so many verses like this in Scripture Dean I don't know
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  how people misinterpret this I just don't get it can you help me understand that?
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  Look I think as I said before it comes down to some people have allowed the allegorical
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  method of interpretation to come into their outlook and their hermeneutic in terms of
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  how they view the Bible and so if you start to spiritualize the Bible then all of a sudden
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  you can kind of make the Bible say whatever you want it to say and so what I try to reinforce
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  to people quite often is let the Bible speak to you sometimes people go through a process
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  of isegesis now what isegesis is it's endothetical to exegesis exegesis is allowing the Scriptures
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  to speak to us and we're drawing out the principles of Scripture through as I said a proper
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  hermeneutic principle but when you go through isegesis what happens is that you're reading
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  in your bias into the Scripture so that you are trying to tell Scripture what Scripture
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  should say to you and so I think when you take the allegorical principle and you take the
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  principle of isegesis then all of a sudden people are coming up with different doctrines
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  that you can't take from the pages of Scripture so I think to a large degree that explains it and
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  as I said before replacement theology continues to remain an obstacle for those who are teaching
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  the Bible in the right way adopting that literal approach to the Word and of course to eschatology
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  as well so that's I think where the confusion comes from so it's that's why it's important for
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  people to get in touch with a good Bible teaching church and good Bible teaching ministries so that
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  people are able to connect with the with the word in the right way handling the word accurately
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  and man you know so it we don't have to be to I don't like that expression where I was just
• 25:16
  about to say beat a dead horse but the church has not and cannot replace Israel friends
• 25:24
  Dean really quick your speculation on where we're at now as far as the peace between Israel and Gaza
• 25:32
  we know it probably will be temporary who knows where it'll go from here but I think there
• 25:37
  are good intentions by some just your overall thoughts on your view
• 25:41
  when we were growing up a lot of people were fans of hollywood movies now there was a
• 25:49
  well-used line in a lot of movies which was we don't negotiate with terrorists now all of a
• 25:55
  sudden where did this change because all of a sudden the world's negotiating with terrorists and
• 25:59
  this is what we have to keep in mind and you said it well earlier in the podcast hummus they don't
• 26:05
  care about agreements they don't care about international reputation they don't care even about
• 26:10
  the Palestinian people all they care about is their wicked ideology and so this is when we talk
• 26:17
  about the ongoing peace process and I think Donald Trump used the word everlasting or eternal
• 26:23
  peace and again this is Trump's optimism but we know from the pages of scripture that the
• 26:29
  piece is not going to last we know sadly Israel is exhausted their trips must be exhausted from
• 26:35
  constant war and battle but the pages of scripture do tell us there are significant wars coming
• 26:41
  as iqil 3839 and obviously other skirmishes as well leading into then obviously the great battle
• 26:48
  at the end of the tribulation period so while we might reflect and we can take some positives
• 26:55
  from it particularly the release of the hostages as you well point out this will be a temporary
• 27:01
  peace and Israel continues to need our praise daily amen brother Dean Dwyer pastor of
• 27:09
  Isaac Street Baptist Church to Wumba Australia and you can find his work at harbingersdaily.com
• 27:17
  and brother happy 27th anniversary today is today your anniversary today is my 27th wedding
• 27:24
  anniversary so I love to my wife Elsa and thank her for her support love yes as you know David
• 27:32
  we just can't do ministry without our wives so we appreciate them very much yes I God bless you
• 27:37
  we're at we're going to be 25 years next year but congratulations brother thanks for your time
• 27:42
  good to see as always likewise thank you bro well friends God bless you and as always keep speaking
• 27:49
  the truth about things that matter see you next time