Latest / WA Police Confidential (Formerly Operation Podcast) / Ep 13 - Conman Case

Transcript

Ep 13 - Conman Case · WA Police Confidential (Formerly Operation Podcast)

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_08: This podcast discusses real life crimes and law enforcement matters.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_08: It may include detailed descriptions of criminal activity, traumatic incidents, and other content that could be confronting or distressing, particularly for victim survivors.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_08: Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_08: If you find any of these topics upsetting, please consider whether this content is right for you and seek support if needed.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to WA Police Confidential, the official weekly podcast of the Western Australia Police Force.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Joey Katanzaro.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Sergeant Nate Gilmore.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: And this week we're going to dive into a very rarely spoken about topic outside of policing circles human sources, or as they're sometimes called, informants.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: By the end of this episode, you will know just how much we as a police force can and do pay informants to turn on their underworld bosses.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_12: Later we're going to take you into an operation to bust a sophisticated Ponzi scheme.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_12: Our colleague Claire Sientar joins us later for a behind-the-scenes look at the news headlines and cold case missing persons.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: A missing former soldier, some missing pages from a map book.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: Apparently, these make hold the key to solving this particular mystery.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_12: Plus our history fact for the week, the pipe band, and more.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: You're listening to WA Police Confidential.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: The criminal underworld has some very unsavory names for people from within their own organisations who provide information to police.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: You may have heard some before.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: Snitches, rats, narks.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: But from a law enforcement perspective, these informants on the inside really provide a great deal of value to policing and to community safety.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: There is a counter-argument to be made here that they're doing a really good thing.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm joined today by Detective Superintendent Brent Fletcher and uh Ryan, who works with Brent, uh, who are here to talk about human sources.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: So can we just straight out of the box, can we just talk about the fact that people are indoctrinated and and break that down, this idea that somehow cooperating with police is a bad thing?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's not uncommon for it to be brought up from a young age, uh, people in this lifestyle, this culture, to have it inbred into them and and and and taught not to speak to police.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: But the reality is that there are instances where talking to the police, and you know, we've heard before from um other police officers in other areas where if they're in trouble, bikies will call call police for help.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um and there are instances where it's not just about you, but also you might be able to help other people in the community.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, I think that's often missed.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_09: Um we use the term human source because it's not necessarily a criminal source.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_09: Sources come from a wide array of backgrounds.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_09: They can be members of the community, they can be members of industry, um, they can be criminals and and often are criminals.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_09: Uh, and their motivations vary depending on the reason they want to talk to police.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_09: Hmm.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: How um how do you recruit a human source?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: Is there one is there one surefire way, or is it sort of is there a couple you can talk us through?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_09: Yep.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_09: The first one is talk to them.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_09: Okay.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_09: The very first thing is talk to them.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_09: We uh we show them a bit of empathy and understanding and we give them an opportunity to tell us their story um and be engaged with them.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_09: That's kind of the first thing.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_09: Uh and then we look at their motivations and and what's going to work for them, what that what they need from us.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_05: Uh everyone's got a turning point uh at some point in their life, um, whether it's doing something good for the community or for themselves or for the family, um, upcoming children, or they're looking at going away for a while and they want to reduce that.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_05: So self- self-pref uh preservation is also a key point.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_12: So by going away you mean in jail, yeah?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_12: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think that um if there's somebody listening, you'd be able to maybe just lay lay out for them the sorts of things that maybe might be on the table if they've got information right now that might help solve a serious crime?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: What what would be on offer?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_09: Well, to start with, um, for community sources, often it's just the fact um they're not seeking a reward or any sort of benefit, they just want to help the community.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_09: So often they're reporting just to support the community.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_09: But other people require different motivation, and so there's other motivations available.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_09: For example, we can offer cash rewards, and we do pay cash rewards to human sources.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_09: Uh, we can also um offer those rewards in other tangible ways uh where cash might not be appropriate.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_09: Um, I'm thinking of the situation of someone who has uh a problem with managing their own finances and maybe giving them a big lot of cash is not a good idea.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_09: Uh we also are able to provide what we call a letter of recognition where they've prov assisted the police force in doing its work, assisted the community.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_09: We're able to provide a letter of recognition to a sentence in court where a sentencing judge can read that letter and take that letter into consideration when they issue the sentence to the person.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: So if they've if they've helped with community safety or or solving a crime, there's a chance that the the judge, the magistrate may decide to give them a you know a discount of months, weeks, years on their sentence, possibly.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_09: Absolutely.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_09: So those those letters are graded.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_09: They have a different grading depending on the lever of assistance provided.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_09: And then it's always up to the magistrate or the judge, but um they can make a decision as to whether they amend the sentence, change the type of sentence, uh, how they how they decide to sentence in the in the long run.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: Let's um the I mean we're talking invaluable information sometimes, but there is a value on it to some extent.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: What's sort of a typical amount that you'd pay and for what sort of crime would you s would you say is your your most common sort of payment to a to a human source?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_09: Uh regularly, um, regularly in the thousands.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_09: Yep.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_09: Um, sub-10,000.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_09: Um more irregularly more than 10,000.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: What do you what are you getting for sub 10,000?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like what sort of how assistance would you have to provide to police?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_05: It it more or less gets graded on the harm that's to the community.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_05: For example, a firearm.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_05: Firearm in the community is worth a significant amount of money because it's risky to the community, just like drug importations and large uh quantities of drugs.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so it all gets put through um a scalable matrix depending on more or less a harm to the community.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_05: The better the information, the better the result for them at the end.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_09: We we also assess the usefulness of the information.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_09: So um just saying that there's some stolen guns in Albany, and I don't just use Albany as a random town, sure, um doesn't necessarily help us.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_09: Yep.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_09: But pointing us to the particular address in a particular time and a particular person with no other corroborating information that is the one key piece of evidence, that's obviously gonna be worth more.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: And do you have to do you negotiate what the reward would be should the intelligence you're receiving the tip off actually pan out?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: Is that sort of a negotiator in advance or is it more of a look, we'll we'll see how we go and and and and grade it accordingly.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_05: We can't make any promises or assurances what the value or if they're even gonna get a reward.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_05: Um we don't know if it's gonna be acted on or if it's gonna be credible.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_05: Um we've got to assess everything.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_05: So every case is different.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_05: Everything gets reviewed in a separate manner, and then we've got to look at the outcome we get at the end of the day as well.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: So this is it's a system.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: There's not it's not totally discretionary, it's more like um, you know, this action, this result for community safety, this harm mitigation will result in X number of dollars going to this human source.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: Is that fair to say?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: Something like that?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: To a degree, yeah.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_09: Okay, all right.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_09: This process is aside from the police force's evidentiary process.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_09: Of course.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_09: So obviously, when we talk to someone about an offence they're involved in as a suspect, they have rights and you know, there's a legal process and so forth.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_09: We make sure this is very much aside.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_09: So even to the point where a person in custody who's been dealt with in an evidentiary manner and the brief's being prepared and their bales being considered, that's the point at which another team will come in and start the human source conversation so that we can separate those two streams and there's that fairness there.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_09: Because the last thing we want to do is to be seen to induce people.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_09: Of course.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that's a it's a really good point, and certainly what I wasn't aware of, but then I'm not a police officer.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so okay.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: How many times would you have say, over the course of your work in this field, encountered somebody doing it just for the right reasons?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: Because, or at least part of their motivation is that they see that something bad is going to happen, or they have the ability to give you guys the means of stopping but something bad happening.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: Is there uh is there actually I don't know, instances where the moral compass actually tips them in the right direction?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_05: There are a lot of good people out there that get sucked into a world which snowballs and gets out of control, and sometimes they need that lifeline, that that person on the other side to help them and guide them through it, um, to kind of get out of that scenario.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_05: And we assist in that space as well.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_05: And whereas they're not working for a reward as such or any any monetary uh incentive, having that person that's on the other side that can guide them through it and help them get back on track um goes a long way with them, and that's a reward in itself.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_05: Um, however, if if they give us a a a little nugget of information that goes a long way, we'll make sure it gets to them in an appropriate manner that doesn't put them back down that track.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: For anyone who's feeling a little bit over the criminal aspect of maybe their their doings, their career, could they make a living out of being a human source if they wanted to?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: Is it is it viable?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_09: Uh I I wouldn't think it's viable to make a living as a human source.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_09: And and the reason is most of the high-paying rewards uh come from people that are involved in criminality or very closely aligned to criminality, and that in itself doesn't pay in long term.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_09: So gotcha.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: If somebody in the community does have some really great information, can they get a reward for helping out solving crime?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_09: Of course.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_09: So we um we register community sources um just as member of the community, uh, and we will pay them rewards.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_09: Often they're not seeking a reward, but if the information is of such value, we always uh put it up and offer a reward.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_09: Um, and that can be, you know, a couple hundred dollars or a couple of thousand dollars, depending on the information that's provided and its value to us.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_09: Um anything that saves us time, saves the courts time, protects the community.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_09: That's the sort of thing we're trying to pay for.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_09: Um, but we also get people who provide that information via crime stoppers or go and see their local police or or speak to their local police officer when they're playing footy on the weekends.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: So and that's like realistically where most of this falls, isn't it, Nate?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, just Crime Stoppers is such an invaluable tool.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I think most people in our community here in Western Australia just you can't really put a price on that community safety aspect.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_12: Definitely, and a lot of the feedback we get from Crime Stoppers is that people don't actually want the reward, they're just happy to do the right thing.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_12: Um, and yeah, as we've touched on, that information's critical um in a wide range of applications from petty theft right up to serious cases.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_12: So um, yeah, no, it's it's it's invaluable.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing, um, I think recently there's been uh some research done, uh, maybe a bit of a trip abroad where there was we looked at other jurisdictions and how they're managing human sources.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_09: Any big takeaways from that that that maybe we could bring back here?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_09: Um massive.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_09: It was uh it was pretty extensive travel that uh Ryan and the officer in charge of the human source management unit went on.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_09: They spent six weeks uh overseas in the US and the UK, um, went to I think 22 different policing forces agencies.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, 22 different different jurisdictions.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, including police forces, intelligence agencies, you know, um the DEA and agencies like that.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_09: Um and basically looked at training models, reward processes, source motivations, securing information, court systems.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_05: We we looked at every aspect of how they're doing their management um from their legislation all the way through to the start of their training.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and we took some key takeaways from that.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_05: Um what was nice to see was we're contemporary with how we do our business, we're leading in certain areas um compared to other agencies, and we've got some things that we can improve on as well, which we're currently putting to practice.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um being one is we're gonna get more people involved in this process, um being police, um, and that's starting with our uniformed officers all the way through to our detectives as well.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: And look, and we do have quite a few of those that listen to the podcast.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I guess the message that if you are a constable um and you come across somebody who you think might be what maybe beneficial to community safety if they're prepared to cooperate with police, what's the message there?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_09: So we've we've already started on that front.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_09: Um we've um the team at Human Source Management Unit have designed some training for that frontline engagement for the for the you know new to new to the job constable.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_09: Very simple, very straightforward, more about operating ACOS than than process and and extensive understanding of human source motivation.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_09: It's about taking that.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_09: Uh Ryan always tells me off because I get this wrong, this one-off download, but it's actually called a one-off information capture.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_09: Uh, it's the person who's sitting there, they've just been through the whole rigmarole of being arrested and so forth, and says, Look, I've got some information if it'll help me, this is what you do.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_09: So that training exists.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_09: Uh, and we've also just worked with the academy to we're going to be embedding some of that in at the recruit training stage.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_09: So, again, the guys from the human source management unit won't just be operating sources, they'll also be up there teaching constables how to do it.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: So amazing.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what is it like to manage human sources?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I asked this because you know, police officers have this incredible ability, I it's just my observation, to treat everybody with respect.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, one second someone's an active armed offender and they may have been shot, and the next second, you know, you're providing CPR.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: These are people who are cooperating with police.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: How do you feel and how do you manage them when they're they're going out potentially and gathering information for you?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_09: Well, I I now live vicariously through the young guys at HSMU who actually do the work, um, and I get to watch them do their job every day.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_09: But uh I know I know from my perspective, it was always just about often you're often you're trying to be your source's conscience and their guide uh and give them a path.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_09: So um you no one wants to bury their source, everyone wants to look after their source and and do the best for them, but also obtain the information in the process.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_05: So real balancing act, I was always thought, yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's a it's a level of trust between both parties.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um and it's a relationship that's built and maintained.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_05: It obviously the trust doesn't start straight away and it takes time.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_05: Um the guys doing the first uh first responding, they get that positive, they've done something good.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_05: Um doing this, you get to carry it on and build that and and do something good for them in the long term, um, whether it's getting them out of that bad situation that they've dug themselves into, um, or just helping them get through life with a bit of money on the side, or into the employment that they've struggled to get into.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: So that's um that's amazing.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: So there is some well, we've talked about it before.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's it's it's kind of good being one of the good guys.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and they get a taste of that potentially, and they like it, some of them.
• 15:47
  unknown: Okay.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone's nodding, by the way.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: You can't see that on a podcast, but there's some vigorous, vigorous nodding.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_12: This is WA Police Confidential.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_12: You're listening to WA Police Confidential.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_12: Imagine your best friend, someone you trusted, was a con artist.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_12: For years, Joseph Papillia preyed on victims from an older generation, exploiting their vulnerability and trust as a man they believed was a friend and respected accountant.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_12: Behind the too good to be true investment opportunities, Papillia was running what would later be exposed as a Ponzi style scheme.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_12: The money wasn't just figures on paper, it represented decades of hard work, sacrifice, and the retirement plans of many and their family security.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_12: In many cases, it was the loss of a future, not just for the victims, but for their children and grandchildren.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_12: After more than 20 years of deceit, Papillia's web of lies began to unravel.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_12: And to tell us how that all came undone is Detective Senior Constable Darren Good of the Financial Crime Squad.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_12: Darren, welcome.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_04: Good afternoon.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_12: Thank you for having me.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_12: Um now, how did you first become aware of the actions of Joe Papalia?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_12: Um, where did it become clear that this was a long-running and serious fraud?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I've got to take you back to June of 2021 when the investigation began.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_04: And uh at that time, I don't think anybody in the office really knew the uh severity um of what was about to occur.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_04: But um there was a small group of individuals, um, group of victims that all made um separate complaints um to the local police down in Bunbury saying that they'd lost and were victims of uh the scam for for Joe Papalia.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um and that's where it began.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um I remember coming into the office um being told to uh go with uh go with a colleague, go down to Bunbury, and we don't know when you're gonna be back.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um it was a uh a fast moving operation, and uh we had a couple of people lined up to uh to speak to, and that put the wheels in motion.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um we went and spoke to a couple of people later on at the end of that first week.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_04: The uh the community uh called for a uh a local meeting in Harvey down in the southwest, and that's when it sort of dawned on us that um this is going to be quite a large investigation.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_04: Well what was the nature of the scam?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just curious.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_04: How did how did it how did he scam people?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_04: It evolved from um investments originally it started.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um that's uh Joe was um practiced as an accountant um in Ostrelind, and from there he sold his practice and then moved into uh into retail, um, had a gift store which then morphed into retail um uh ladies' fashion.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_04: He wanted to uh recreate uh ladies' handbags, ball gowns, um, and then there was a promise of uh a return of uh the profits of that of that sale.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_04: It went from there, and then there was obviously um a downturn in the economy, um, which then caused um an issue with the sales.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_04: It sort of was borrowing too much, the businesses collapsed, and then it went sort of pivot to individual investments um which never even existed.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and it was the sale of uh making plastic pallets for industry, um, work boots to the miners, uh to big mining companies.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um and that those stories were then repeated multiple times to multiple victims, and then eventually you have quite a large number of victims.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_04: There was 49 that we actually um became aware of that came forward.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um I mentioned the meeting that took place in Harvey.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_04: There was quite a large contingent of um the local community and the wider Southwest community all attended the meeting that had all suffered um from that uh from those scams.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_04: And as a part of our investigation, we gave serve uh we gave questionnaires to uh a number of the victims, which then they came into the office, we've assessed them, and then that's how we've identified the victims that needed to be contacted, and we're willing to pursue complaints.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um I have to emphasize that there were a number of people at that meeting that um didn't wish to pursue a complaint.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we are talking about older generations, um, people that have known Joe for many, many, many years, um, and Joe was a well-respected individual, as were his family in the area, which made the scam more believable because of the trust and the position that he held within that community.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_12: That's incredible.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_12: So, how much in total had um he managed to deceive people?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we charged Joe in September of 2021 with just shy of$19 million.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_04: It was$18.9 million that we alleged.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but uh because of the a number of people that didn't come forward, I personally would say that that figure would have been significantly higher than what we first presented in the uh the brief of evidence.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: Those um those relationships, as you said, um you know, obviously that there was a lot of people there and he leveraged off his reputation in the community.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: I imagine it made him easier for him to to convince people that this was a legitimate investment, but it must have hurt more as well.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, it must have hurt those people massively.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_04: It it it hurt deep.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_04: These were clients of Joe's when he was a uh a practicing accountant.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: So he had full awareness of their um the clo the the victims' finances, what they had available, and preying on their vulnerabilities um just made it even worse.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_12: It's incredible.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_12: So did you manage to sort of track down where this money went?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_04: That was the tricky part because we were we were having to trawl over 20 years worth of alleged offending.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_04: Well, uh it's not alleged, it the the offending happened over decades.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_04: And the problems that we encountered as investigators, um, banks, establishments only keep certain records for certain years.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_04: So we're having to then recall from the victims to produce documents if they were held.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so it it did create a number of hazards that we had to navigate through to ultimately get to our destination.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but we got there.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_04: We we definitely got there.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um alluded to um ladies' fashion and and the stores.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_04: Joe sold his practice in um in Australind, moved into retail, and initially a large proportion of in the early days the funds were used to purchase stock so that they could trade within the stores.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_04: And the victims were then promised a return.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_04: And again, it's my understanding that the victims did receive um a return on their funds initially, which then created it as a a plausible spin um on the uh on the scam.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but eventually there was a couple of uh turns in the economic situation, which a lot of money that he was borrowing um had to forego close on um certain businesses, etc.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_04: There was a few um issues that were he he was was faced with um a number of stores.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_04: I think there was about five or six different stores that he had trading at one time, they all closed, and uh he was then not able to then provide money to back to the victims as planned.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_04: And so this Ponzi scheme begins.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_04: Correct, yeah, correct.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um I personally think that he probably lost control of the amount of people that he borrowed money from.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_04: When you're not making a profit, there's no money to then give back.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_04: But then you've got a number of people contacting Joe wanting their principal back, which they'd invested, which eventually he's then trying to rob Peter to essentially pay Paul.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: So he's he's trying to get new victims to to pay back some of the older victims.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's unsustainable.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's a cycle that could not just be broken.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: Maddening.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and and you know, you talk about him being an accountant and creative accounting in this case.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um you can't write all of this stuff down.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: So uh presumably, I can't even imagine, but as it may be a deterrent for anybody who's thinking about doing something like this, that must be pretty difficult keeping all of that in your head.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: All of that, all of those lies, all of that deceit, all of those numbers of who's ultimately that was his downfall.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: You reckon?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_04: 100% that uh we, as part of the investigation, went looking for those records that one would think an accountant would keep.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_04: Unfortunately, on the back he did not.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you reckon it took uh taking a toll on him?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, obviously Massively.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: Massively.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: We'll get to the the actual sentence in a moment, but like uh personally, I mean, he would have lost a lot of friends.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, it's listening to the listening to the victims, you you can appreciate that if you've got uh 49 victims, it wasn't me, it wasn't just down to me.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: This was a whole division focusing on doing the best for these victims.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_04: It was it was a whole office um investigation.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um I personally dealt with a number of the victims, um, but what was consistent was the betrayal, the heartache, the loss, um, just being just being scammed.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's the shame factor that these people have to deal with, and that was one of the factors why people wouldn't want to come forward in the first place, um, and sheer embarrassment.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_04: What about his family?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that I mean they there must be victims in this in a way as well.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_04: Uh to a point I I have sympathy with the family.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, um, I personally had contact with um the family myself, not um Joe's wife, but um it's my personal opinion that Joe may have been living a double life.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, that the business was separate and those activities may not necessarily have been told to to the family.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and that's the line that I personally tried to keep and being independent with that investigation.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: And refocusing this, of course, nothing takes away from the fact that the people who are scammed are the primary victims here.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: And in some cases, their circumstances, stances financially and lifestyle-wise changed pretty dramatically, is my understanding.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_04: Give us an example.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, there's um one particular victim that um I've had a lot of dealings with um over the course of this investigation.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, their loss was in the region of about sixty thousand dollars.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um that was meant to be for her um retirement and setting up for future life.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um, she's now had to sell the house.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um, she's now living in uh in a motorhome in a caravan with uh with her husband, um, and her life has been flipped upside down.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um is is at peace with it now.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that there's obviously the money's not coming back, um, but that doesn't take away from the heartache and what's actually occurred, that this is nobody should go through the devastating loss that any of these victims have uh have suffered.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_12: Did he spend the money on on like luxury items or properties or whatever?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_12: That's the thing.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_12: Yeah.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_04: That's when you look at face value, um, there's no assets that Joe has in the family or his name, and primarily everything that we can see went into the retail businesses.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_12: Oh, okay.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yep, yep.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and due to those losses with the retail business, any other money was then returned back to to victims.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_04: As I say, it would go back to the Robin Peter to pay poor, perpetuate the scam.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_04: And on face value, there is the the money was distributed throughout the the creditors that put money in.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_04: But there's nothing to show for it.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_04: And then when you look at it in in its entirety, you go, well, what's the point?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't seem like a very good idea at all.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um, did he cooperate?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_04: Did he plead guilty?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, he did.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, he did.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it took a while to get there.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and uh there were a number of issues um regarding the um legal advice that uh Joe received.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_04: However, um we interviewed Joe over a number of occasions um due to his um position in a uh facilit uh medical facility.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um so he was in hospital at the time.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_04: So because of the conditions at the time, um we had to keep the interviews short um not as to not to overwhelm, as you can appreciate the details of the investigation, um, was was was quite a lot to go through.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_04: So with his consent, with the hospital's consent, um we did that um as a stage process, and then uh Joe was charged in September of 2021, um, and that's when we started the uh the process through court.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um when when you you're faced with you're faced with somebody who is uh obviously very clever, a master manipulator who has scammed almost 20 million dollars from people over the course of decades.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: How do you crack a person like that?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_04: You face them with the evidence and the evidence that we had at the time was accounts, verbal accounts from uh the victims who were reciting previous years and the records that they had.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_04: You then have the painstaking situation of piecing it and then corroborating it with the evidence from the banks.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's all well and good saying I borrowed X amount on this date, but you still need the evidence to show and um prove what the money was intended for.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_04: Now they were sold a sold a lie.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_04: They were told that they were investing in a product that besides the retail business, those products never existed.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_04: He would have a conversation with you, and uh Joe Joe would have a conversation, you would mention a particular product, and that would be used then as a hook in a follow-up conversation.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_04: And then that's the next time that Joe was had a contact in that industry who was then providing or producing those uh materials, would you like to invest?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_04: And that's how it started.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_04: And then obviously, because of his reputation and the early days of people receiving funds um in return, then it made an attractive offer for people to then invest further money.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_04: So you have to provide, and we you know, we then had to prove that those um products didn't exist, and that you then have to piece it together to prove his intention to scam.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um we do we actually uh we did speak with some of the victims.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, have a listen to this.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_07: The first night that I realized I wasn't getting my money back, I didn't sleep a wink, and I felt like such a fool.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_11: Um, I remember the victims were all so ashamed of what had happened, but they wrote on a little piece of paper each of them and screwed it up in a ball how much money they'd lost and popped it into a big champagne glass.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_11: And I think on the day it was 19 million on that first day.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_07: I sold my Bitcoin, I sold my gold, I sold shares, I sold so many things.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_07: Somehow I'd lost my train of thought at that time and gave it to Joe.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_07: Give him the money.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_11: Joe Papalia had been my accountant for many, many years.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_11: I trusted him, he was my family's accountant.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_07: For 36 years he was my accountant.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_07: He was my friend.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_07: You know, we would he'd come and call in and visit me at times, and he knew I was of the age where I could access my my superannuation, and he wanted me, wanted to know if I would like to seize an opportunity to invest.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_11: Lost my job because of COVID and I didn't have any money, and he suggested I withdraw money from my superannuation.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_11: So I did, and I very quickly realized that it was a scam.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and also, sentence, what what what did he get?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_04: He got just shy of 12 years.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um with the four years that has been on remand, um, Joe's now got to serve another five and a couple of months um before he's um eligible for parole.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_12: So that's looking more like 2031, so still quite a distance away from 2026.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, obviously got to serve more now than he has on remand.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: And how do you I mean, again, once you're out in the community, all those people that you've betrayed must be that's a life sentence in a way.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_04: You carry that with you forever.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_04: As I mentioned um previously, that there are no winners in this situation.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the victims, the family, Joe's family.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's just an awful, avoidable situation.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you very much for everything that you and the team did uh to bring some justice to those victims.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um it is a textbook case of just thorough, excellent police police work.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for having me.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_12: This is WA Police Confidential.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_12: You're listening to WA Police Confidential.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_12: We're joined once again this week by my colleague, Senior Media Liaison Officer Claire Sienta with the news headlines.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_12: Claire, what's been happening?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_08: So we've had some digital billboards actually.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_08: You may have seen them out at major shopping centres across Perth.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_08: Um, and it's all about a renewed public appeal as part of the investigation into the death of Amy Wensley.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_08: So she died back in 2014 after suffering a gunshot wound.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_08: Um, but you may ask, why now are we doing these billboards?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: Why now are we doing these billboards?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_08: Yes.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_08: Thank you for asking.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_08: Um, so basically, with the passage of time, it's all part of the ongoing investigation into her death.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_08: So, cold case investigators, you know, they say that memories change.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_08: Um, the things that people remember over time do change, and details that were once overlooked may now stand out.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_08: So it's just really a reminder for people if they do know something to come forward and contact police.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_08: Um, and there is also a$1 million reward on offer for any information that leads to an arrest or conviction.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: And just a bit of context, that you this was the subject of a coronial investigation, and the coroner was unable to determine whether or not um Amy had been murdered and was very critical, and we have to take this as a police force at the time, very critical that the scene was effectively cleaned up.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: It was ruled non-suspicious and it was cleaned up too early.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: And we often on this podcast talk about some of the incredible capabilities that we are developing now, uh, genetic genealogy, that sort of thing.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: But when the evidence has been contaminated, it makes it so difficult for us to then go back and apply some of these new methodologies and techniques to solve a crime.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_03: But obviously, we don't want to give up on Amy, and this is the latest, latest push.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_12: Um, so if anybody knows anything, please You can contact Crimestoppers either by calling 1-800-333000 or going online, crimestoppers WA.com.au.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: Because I honestly know that the the the cold case team want to crack this case more than anything.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: It means a lot to them.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: Every every case is important, don't get me wrong.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_03: But given that we we didn't do the best job back way back then, we want to finish the job.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_08: In some other news, we had 10 men charged in what was a major national crackdown targeting an alleged drug and money laundering syndicate that was operating right across the country and even overseas.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_08: So I'm just gonna break down some numbers for you.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_08: So over the over the three months, more than$1.1 million in cash and 120 kilos of drugs were seized.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_08: Um, in this multi-agency operation, the basically the haul stopped about$57 million from reaching the hands of criminals, which is amazing.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: Incredible.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_08: And it also prevented roughly around 1.1 million street deals.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_08: So it was a huge haul by a multitude of different agencies working together to crack this.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's more hits than uh the best of cold chisel.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_08: Well, less hits because none of them actually made it.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_08: Um, but it does send that clear message that the Western that Western Australia is not an open market for this sort of criminal activity.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_08: Um and police will do everything in their power to stop it in its tracks.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_08: So Acting Inspector Craig Mellers had a bit to say about that from the Serious and Organised Crime Division.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: The West Australian Police Force, through the WA Joint Organised Crime Task Force, has dismantled a significant drug trafficking and money laundering network that was operating in Western Australia as well as across Australia.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: The investigation focused on the alleged attempted trafficking of significant quantities of methylenphetamine heroin and other illicit drugs into Western Australia.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Overall, we've seized over 125 kilos of illicit drugs, including methylamphetamine, heroin, cocaine, and ketamine, as well as more than a million dollars in cash.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: As a result of the investigation, um, ten offenders have been charged with a total of 39 offences.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, working closely with our partner agencies, the WHOCTEF has undertaken a number of deliberate overt actions throughout the operation, resulting in some significant seizures over the last three months.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Claire.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: Coming up next, you're back with cold case specific persons.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: This is WA Police Confidential.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: All the units.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: The WA Police Force is looking for people, all common people, people in the tank, in the comedian, into formal company, people, in the horse people, people in the middle publicers, push public, means helicopters and police, people in the beagle community, helping others and holding true community, not just watching it.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Ordinary people looking for doing extremely ordinary things.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_13: If you can be one of these people, youth managed people, search Let's Join Forces, authorised by the State Government, Perth.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_08: Cast your mind back to June 2020.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_08: The COVID-19 pandemic was in its early days, and a man by the name of Troy Woods vanishes from his Midland home, which was found engulfed in flames.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_08: I'm now joined by Senior Constable Isaac Watkins.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_08: Thanks for jumping on.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_08: Tell me a little bit about who Troy Woods is.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_10: So Troy Woods uh is 47 years old at the time he um disappeared.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_10: He's so he's currently 53, being six about six years ago.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_10: So Troy was uh a gentleman that was living at his Midland home um by himself.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_10: He was not married or in a relationship at that point.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_10: Uh he grew up in uh Broken Hill, born in Broken Hill, uh moved with his family parents, Ray and Sally.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_10: He was a middle middle brother, middle child.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_10: Um, went to Adelaide, did he finish his schooling there?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_10: And by all accounts, he had a good, happy upbringing.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_10: Uh was a good student, good sportsman.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_10: Um spent a few years doing some odd jobs here and there, uh mostly in Adelaide, and then joined the Australian Army.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_10: So uh he spent a few years in the Australian Army in the late 90s, around 2000.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_10: Uh he did see some uh action, being that he went to uh he was deployed uh to the peacekeeping operation warden in uh East Timor.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_10: Um we're led to believe that this had quite a marked effect on Troy, that it was uh an unpleasant experience.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_10: I know it's been uh talked about that it was a lot worse than originally portrayed, and just anecdotally that it was a pretty unpleasant time for the the fellows that were over there.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_10: Um so it's without a formal diagnosis, he was uh believed to have gotten PTSD from his experience there.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_10: Um short time after that he left the army and uh sort of continued his logistics position, sort of driving trucks.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_10: Uh moved to West Australia and was driving trucks around for mining construction.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_10: And yeah, was uh took up a house in Midland.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_10: Living living his life, he was a fairly solitude sort of soul.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_10: He was um not known to sort of interact with many, many people.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_10: Uh his workmates described him as quiet, not talkative, but he was a reliable employer, good driver.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_10: He was sort of withdrawn almost that he wasn't keen on going to open spaces, he didn't like going out to to restaurants, that sort of thing.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, quite the introvert from all accounts.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_10: Friends, family, and that's right, yeah.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_08: Absolutely.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_08: And and so, you know, he had a couple of challenges, you know.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_08: Obviously, you mentioned his time in the army um and being exposed to those, I'm sure, traumatic scenes over in East Timor.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_08: Um, and and later on when he did return um back to WA, uh, he was involved in in a crash as well.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, there was a fairly serious crash that was involved in uh in 2017, which led to believe had a a fairly quite a marked impact on him.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_10: Um, so that was I think always hanging in the back of his head as well.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_10: Um but yeah, it all sort of led up to his disappearance.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_08: Speaking of his disappearance, take me to Saturday, the 27th of June in 2020.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_08: What what kind of sparked this whole thing?
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_10: Um the early hours of uh that Saturday, 27th of June.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_10: Um, so fire firefighters, police were notified by neighbours of uh Troy's Midland house that uh his unit was fully engulfed in fire.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_10: So it's quite a you know full-on emergency response, you know, fire trucks, police, ambulance, everyone there.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_08: And obviously that kind of starts as any other emergency, right?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_08: It it you wouldn't immediately think this would become a missing person.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, exactly.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_10: Exactly, yeah.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_10: So it's it was quite a a different start to these, I guess, matters.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_10: They put the fire out and obviously the firefighters went through along with the police to to see if there was anyone inside.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_10: Um and yeah, mysteriously no one, no one there.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_10: The arson squad was sort of called in to investigate the I guess the um circumstances around the fire.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_10: But uh as the day progressed, the the main concern obviously was for the the homeowner being identified as Troy.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_10: Um contact couldn't be made with him, his phone uh was was rung, obviously, multiple times.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_10: It appeared as though the phone hadn't been active since a couple of days prior.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_10: Being in that Midland area where he's where he's lived.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_10: Contact was made with uh with his mum, Sally.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_10: They managed uh initial uh investigating officers managed to find out next to Kin being Mum and spoke to her and she hadn't heard him for a while, which which wasn't unusual.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_10: But with the the circumstances surrounding the fire, there was obviously pretty serious welfare concerns right from the get-go.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_10: So, like a I guess a formal missing person investigation was sort of initiated by the end of the day, effectively.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_08: And so with a any sort of missing person investigation, usually I would assume something that would happen is their family or friends would come to police and and report the person missing.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_08: But in this case, police kind of started that investigation themselves.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_10: You're right.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_10: Normally for a missing person investigation, there's a a lead up whether it be the missing person sort of indicating to family that something's not quite right before they disappear.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_10: This was sort of, yeah, like I said, started off uh quite suddenly.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_10: The officers had to take a take a moment to try and catch up to what was going on as quite yeah.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, absolutely.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_08: And and when you do take over the investigation, uh maybe not the missing person investigation team, because you guys obviously look at the long-term missing people cases, but in this case, um when it was starting to be treated as a missing person investigation and a welfare concerns investigation, um where do you even begin?
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, well, again, yeah, it's without any immediate um knowledge of where Troy was and from the basic first inquiries you make with friends and family just to see whether he's gone on holiday and it's a just an unfortunate accident that's happened with his with his home.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_10: Um with no contact found and then our usual I guess checks and balances of of uh looking at phones and that sort of thing.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_10: We start going into, I guess, an intelligence-based uh investigation initially.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_10: So we were looking at um at his banking.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_10: The the first, I guess, inquiry that showed up with banking was that he'd withdrawn two thousand dollars cash uh at the Midland gate shopping centre a couple of days prior on the twenty fourth.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_08: And and that would um I'd imagine make your job almost harder with that n that no like kind of electronics.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, exactly.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_10: Like it's if we can get uh banking transaction history for for missing persons, we can at least sort of lock down where they where they've been, if they've spent money at a certain place where having cash does uh present a certain hurdle that amounts to us that uh it's difficult to try and track down a person by by that means.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, it's like an undetectable way to kind of pay for things, right?
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, that's it, yeah.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_10: So uh so that's one of our uh main investigative inquiries or avenues has been sort of dashed straight away, unfortunately.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_10: But that was the last, um, then last known sighting of Troy was uh from CCTV footage that was was gotten from um him attending the the Midland Gate Shopping Center.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_08: And then take us, you know, this is now two months down the track.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_08: Uh long-term missing persons team um takes carriage of the investigation in August.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_08: Tell me about I suppose the breakthrough that you guys had.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, so up to that point, um Midland police done a good done a good job in following all the investigation, investigative leads that they could.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_10: Leading up to the three-month ticking ticking over point where the the missing persons team sort of formally takes carriage.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_10: It just happened coincided that um a speeding infringement had um ticked over onto our systems.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_10: Um he was on his motorbike out near Tammon on the Great Eastern Highway and uh got a speeding ticket, which again was completely out of character for him.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_10: I think the family said he'd never gotten a ticket in his life prior.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_08: And being a driver too, you'd be so conscious of of the laws and everything, all the speeding, um, speed limits and all that sort of stuff.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_08: But this obviously gives you guys a a new avenue to explore.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, exactly.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_10: So um from that point the the doors opened a bit as far as further inquiries.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_10: Um the missing person team detectives at the time then were able to go out and start looking at um server stations along along the road.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_10: They knew the the type of uh motorbike he was on a Yamaha.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_10: Um I could do calculations, rough calculations as far as the fuel tank capacity and where he needed to stop.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_10: Um we're also able to uh check with his his favoured Dare Double Expresso ice coffee that he he was um very keen on.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_10: So they're looking at every um service station along the r along the way for purchases of high octane fuel under under a certain literage and uh with that Dare Double Expresso as well.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_08: And it really um shows the lengths that investigators will go to um to to know what sort of drink he would normally purchase at a service station to then try and uncover maybe he's stopped here, maybe there's CCTV, maybe there's something else we can look at here.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_10: Looking at the service stations along the road, the Great Eastern Highway, I I think the eventually had a a further break through being that um at Southern Cross, the the BP there.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_10: Um they managed to I guess um consolidate the a purchase of fuel and the i uh ice coffee with CCTV and they could see that it was indeed Troy.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_10: So that's that is unfortunately our last confirm confirmed sighting of Troy was at the Southern Cross BP uh being 1.36 pm on the 25th of June 2020.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_10: Um there was a later transaction um of similar fuel, similar uh Dare Double Expresso, which was at Kulgadi uh at 3.39 that afternoon, so a couple hours later.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_10: So we we highly suspect that it was Troy again.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_10: Um if you know your goldfields geography, it's unfortunately a bit of a a sprawl where it could have gone there.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_10: He could have gone to Calgoole, um Boulder area, out past Menzies, Laverton, Leonora.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_08: And and there was uh obviously this is peak COVID time as well.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_08: So you know, there there were other ways to track people's movement as well, just the nature of what was going on at the time.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_08: Um and a potential suspected sighting down in Esperance?
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, so um there was a yeah, uh a suspected sighting of of Troy down at um Esperance.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_10: That was a a gentleman who'd walked into one of the the secondhand stores in Esperance and refused to sign the uh the sign-in details.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_10: Um and he was noticed by the the person working there that he was on a on a motorbike and sort of roughly uh matched the description there that um she'd seen in a poster, um a missing person poster at that point.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_10: Um unfortunately there was never any corroborating evidence, I guess, of that sighting, so we we can't say for sure that it was Troy.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_10: There's been a couple of other um sightings, I guess you'd call it, but we've sort of looked into them with no been able to sort of be m more fairly convinced that it wasn't Troy, those those ones.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_08: And the um the investigation into the house fire as well did uncover something that that may have um kind of supported that theory.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, that's that's right.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_10: So um, as I said, there was an arson investigation and um and missing persons team again went went through sort of the what was located uh within the house.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_10: It was unfortunately pretty pretty gutted.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_10: But uh there was one particular item that was of great interest being a um um WA maps uh track, four drive tracks book.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_10: And uh yeah, importantly, uh the pages relating to the goldfields aspirants area had been ripped out.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_10: Um indicating that yeah, that's that's maybe where where he went, where they had those pages stashed in in his motorbike.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_08: And I I suppose um you know, from then there's not been any sign of Troy.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_08: And, you know, we're nearly up to six years since his disappearance.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_08: His family have um been quite supportive of the investigation and and helpful um in trying to locate their son, particularly his parents.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_08: Um what what is that impact like for for his parents and his loved ones?
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, a hard one, I'm sure, as you can imagine.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_10: Um, yeah, there's been quite a lot of uh public media strategies that we've we've gone through over the years.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_10: The um they've been in instrumental in in helping us with the investigation as it's gone over along over the years.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_10: They they themselves, for a while every every year, would drive over.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_10: They live in Adelaide, they drive over.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_10: You know, they've traveled thousands and thousands of kilometres to to see if they can try and find Troy around that goldfields area.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_10: Um yeah, incredibly difficult for for them and and Troy's brothers, of course.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_08: And I I suppose that's kind of why we are doing this podcast is to get that message out to the community, show that these missing people are not just numbers, um, um, particularly to the Western Australia Police Force, that they are ongoing investigations until that person is found.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_08: So, you know, if you do know something about Troy's whereabouts or if there's a a possible sighting that you're remembering now as you're hearing these, these might, you know, um bring back some memories for yourself.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_08: So uh if you do know something, give us a call and there is that reward as well.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah, especially.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_10: We're we're hoping that someone out there, um, it's it's a few years ago, but um missing persons, uh, they're an open case forevermore until until we know one way or another what's what's happened.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, we're we're hoping someone out there might have some some information about Troy.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_08: Thank you so much for joining us, Senior Constable Watkins.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_08: Um, is there anything else you'd like to add?
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_10: Uh no, that's uh we really appreciate it.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_10: Um you guys doing this and especially from on behalf of Ray and Sally, we're really, really thankful that uh, you know, we can get Troy's word out as much as we can.
• 54:44
  unknown: Yeah.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_08: Thank you so much.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much for listening to another episode of WA Police Confidential.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_03: The the Joe Papalia Ponzi scheme story, um, incredible stuff.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_03: The um it was a living nightmare, wasn't it?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we were we were talking afterwards um uh with the investigator and and he was saying that when they seized his phone, he's just his phone was like maxed out with voicemail messages from people that were his friends and people in the community saying, Where is my money?
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_03: Just way too far in over his head.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_03: Just uh like an absolute nightmare that he got himself into.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think as you pointed out, you know, 20 20 million dollars, you think you're thinking horses and gambling and sports cars, he was just trying to keep his head above water constantly, just trapped in this cycle of lives.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_12: Didn't get him anywhere.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't get him anywhere except prison.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Nate, uh the history fact of the week.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: Now, yes, last week, can you remind us?
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_03: Because it was pretty cool, it sounded like sunken treasure or something.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_12: Yeah, last week I asked uh how sunken treasure off the coast of Calbary from the year 1712 is still the subject of criminal proceedings.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, this is a good one.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_12: It is.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_12: Uh so the answer to it is that the Zoit Dorp, a Dutch trading ship, vanished off the WA coast during that time in 1712, with an estimated quarter of a million coins on board.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_12: The wreck was discovered in 1941, uh, and the area was placed under protection.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_12: But over 300 years later, in October 2024, a Geralton man was stopped at Perth Airport, allegedly carrying the silver coins linked to the ship.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_12: The hole was seized, and the coins are now held at the WIE Maritime Museum.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_12: Wow.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_12: There you go.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_03: That that was a good history fact, I'm not gonna lie.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh how do you explain yourself?
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, just a pocket full of uh dead man's silver is so change.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: Piracy.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_12: Very interesting from our history department.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_12: Thank you for that one.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_12: Next week, uh, I'm gonna tell you how much was paid to recapture one of our most notorious bush rangers.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_12: Oh.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_03: Moondine Joe.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder if there was a human source involved in that.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_03: Potentially.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_12: You'll have to wait and find out.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll also have something, well, very much the opposite of history, very futuristic that we'll be revealing.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: A new capability that's well, it's very cool.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_03: This is WA police confidential.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_06: Grandpa came from infinite.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_06: Nana was from Dumbledie.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, they settled in Australia beneath the outpack.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_06: With a wee bit of stock link.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_06: They all plate pipes.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_08: WA Police Confidential was produced by Joe Garrett, Danny Vandeveer, Lisa Evans, and Sam Ooh.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_08: Sound editing by Joe and Danny and Sam.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_08: Cover song by the WA Police Pipe Band, and Cheesy Podcast theme music by Joey Cantaro.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_08: By the way, why just listen to a podcast about policing when you could actually be doing it?
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_08: Let's join forces.wa.gov.au.