Latest / Bookies' Favourite / She Who Remains by Rene Karabash, translated by Izidora Angel | Review | International Booker Prize 2026

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She Who Remains by Rene Karabash, translated by Izidora Angel | Review | International Booker Prize 2026 · Bookies' Favourite

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Welcome to the club, bookies favorite book club.
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We read literary shortlists and award-winning novels.
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We're an independent podcast with no official links to the
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awards we discuss. We're currently reading the
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International Booker Prize 2026 shortlist.
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This award recognizes the vital work of translation in the UK
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and Ireland. In this episode, we're
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discussing She Who Remains by Renee Karabash, translated from
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The Bulgarian by Isidora Angel and published by Pyrenee Press.
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And this novel was previously awarded the Bulgarian Elas
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Kinetti Prize in 2019, and the English version won the Gulf
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Coast Translation Prize. In 2023.
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It was awarded the PEN and the Heim Translation Fund grant in
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2023 and it won the PEN Club Francois Prize for Translation
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in 2025, and this book was also nominated for the Prisma
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Literary Award. You can follow us on Instagram
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and Goodreads at Bookies favorite Book Club and e-mail us
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at bookiesfavoritebookclub@gmail.com.
1:14
All of our socials and e-mail addresses are in the
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description. I'm Lucy at Books 2026.
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That's books with the Z. You can be one of my like 12
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followers. So I really enjoyed this book,
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but I have a really, really controversial take on it.
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I love Part 1 of this book and absolutely hated Part 2.
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I thought Part 2 was terrible, so much so that I read it again
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in preparation for this podcast. And I just didn't read the
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second part because I was like, I know what happens.
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I'm Hannah. Long time no see, I suppose.
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No Long time no. Listen, I don't know, I've
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missed everyone. Sorry life has taken over at the
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moment, but I am on Instagram at certified book yapper Hannah and
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I actually really like this book.
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I have conflicting feelings about this day in the sense of
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like, did I really understand everything that was going on at
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times? And maybe the writing style of
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it was like quite poetic at times and I felt almost confused
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and disconnected in ways with the writing.
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But I actually really enjoyed it.
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Like I read it over 2 settings. But as soon as I finished the
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book I realized this is one that I think you would need to reread
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to like really get it or like have the real meaning of it.
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But this is my second I believe ever Pyrenee Press book that
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I've read and I'm currently contemplating if I should just
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get a subscription because I'm actually really enjoying them.
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Yeah, they do seem to have so many good books.
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I have so many book subscriptions.
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At this point, though, it's like, I can't, can I justify
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another one? As with most episodes, there's a
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spoiler warning from this point on.
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Let's start with a quote from She Who Remains.
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I tell myself the most precious metal in Albania is freedom.
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Around here a woman's worth is measured in oxen.
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Don't lick men in the eye. Don't go to the pub, mind the
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children. Wash the clothes, cook.
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The most women can cope for is to bring the milk to the dairy.
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Deep in the Albanian Alps, Mattia is being interviewed by a
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journalist. Mattia is 1 of Albania's last
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sworn virgins. They've taken an oath to remain
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a virgin and live as a man until death.
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The narrative weaves through Mattia's life and relationships
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and what led to their decision to become a sworn virgin.
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Having lived the last years in isolation, Mattia is forced to
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face up with the past. What did you think of like the
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style of writing? Because I think you mentioned
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like it's quite poetic, especially the start.
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You know what? Yeah, For me, the writing style,
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there was moments. I absolutely loved it.
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But then like we'd said, this style of like, I've never really
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read poetry, like, ever. I've maybe read.
4:01
I've not read. I maybe written some really bad
4:04
ones in primary school that I have like printed in my library
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at home. But I like, I, there's moments
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where I really like it and then I just don't know.
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So there's like a disconnect for me of jumping between like
4:22
poetry and then like into the novel.
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And sometimes it took me a second to kind of figure out
4:27
like where I was with it. And it's not that I overly hated
4:31
it or anything like that. I just not sure if that's my
4:33
favorite style of kind of writing.
4:36
What about you? How do you feel about it?
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I kind of felt exactly the same as you when I read it for the
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first time because I was kind of like on the start of the book in
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itself is quite jarring. And because it's quite, there's
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like this kind of, I wouldn't want to say like in vitro po
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poems of this woman's experience before birth.
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And then it kind of goes into actually the death of her
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father, which you kind of don't know because he's referred to by
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his name and you're not 100% sure what's going on in those
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kind of early chapters. And this is something that I
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suppose goes to the side of the writing is that it's done quite,
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especially in the start of Part 1.
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It's very you don't have very much information.
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You're trying to kind of work out backwards what's happened
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and why it's happening. There's also part of the story,
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as we kind of mentioned, is that she's in conversation with a
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journalist that she calls Miss Misses Journalist.
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I'm sorry, I am saying she, but at times it's it's you know,
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this this woman and back, yeah, back here and has become a sworn
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virgin and to live her life out as a man.
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So I feel like I'm going between these two genders, but the book
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goes between the two genders. So I feel like it's kind of hard
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to to be like, at what time do you use both?
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But she's definitely. I get you on that.
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She's definitely like, I think you could say he or she and I
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don't think it would be it would offend her.
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And but something I thought was that it kind of works at the
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start, but then I think by the end the reader almost has too
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much information. And that's why I didn't like the
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second part because I was kind of like this is this has been
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this kind of slow build up and then it's just avalanched and
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down the other side of the mountain.
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And I'm like, I don't I didn't know how I felt about that.
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And but what about you? What did you feel about like the
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piercing and the style? Well, I quite liked it.
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Umm, I've been really enjoying and especially since we did the
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Queen Mary, Umm, books like reading those like, I really am
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enjoying like a smaller like length of book because sometimes
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I feel like they're quite concise and to the point and
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they're more like punchy than a book that's like 500 pages long
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and has went way too far. But what I really liked for me
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and what I really enjoy say overall for the international
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Booker is I'm reading about places I wouldn't even think of.
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Like last year when we dived into India, you know, when we
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were reading the Heartlamp. And then this time around, I
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knew nothing about Albania. I knew nothing about this idea
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that you could, like, be a sworn virgin.
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And I was just really fascinated, you know, when
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there's something like a new topic that's just gets me really
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fascinated in a novel, like to read it.
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But yeah, I'm really enjoying the more like shorter kind of
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novels at the moment. Yeah, I think it's it's harder
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to critique them because you're like there's if, as you said,
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something's so punchy and so like controlled with what
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they're saying and they've used not a lot of words to say a lot.
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I think it's very hard to be like, this is This is why this
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is bad or This is why this is good.
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What did you think about? Like, because you were
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discussing there about like Albania and stuff.
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And I know that this is like a specific sect within Albania and
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but what did you think of? And I'm going to pronounce it
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Canon, but I believe it's pronounced differently.
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But I was kind of going off Canon law in my head when I was
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reading it the first time. I know that's probably not
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right, but I did, I looked up like different ways you can
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pronounce it. And sometimes it said you could
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pronounce it like Canon. So I've just taken that as
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permission with my kind of extreme Irish leaning towards
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the word Canon. And so, yeah, I'm going to go
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for, I'm going to say kind of, but what did you think about
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like the whole concept of that with the blood feuds and the
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swarm virgins? Because I think I knew about
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swarm virgins because there's a big BBC article back in the day
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about them. And I remember reading it and
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being like, this is amazing. But I didn't know, like I didn't
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know why they'd done that. I knew that there was a lack of
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men, but I didn't know why there was a lack of men.
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And I didn't know any of the other stuff around it.
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So I was like, this is really fascinating that this book
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really does go in detail about like what's actually going on.
9:10
What did you think about the whole blood feud stuff?
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So in a way, I was thought it was quite interesting because
9:16
we're seeing one other parts of the world and their how their
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traditions are and like the things are carried out.
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But I thought it was quite brutal, to be honest, Like such
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a like almost violent punishment.
9:29
And you know that scene, I don't know if we're going to dive in
9:33
right now, but you know, the scene where she has to choose to
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put the black band on someone and she chooses her brother.
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I was like, Oh my God, because she's not getting married,
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someone in her family has to die.
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I know, yeah. Too extreme in a way, doesn't
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it? Yeah, I really like the writing
9:53
about the way there was it because we obviously, and I
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suppose she's kind of banking on the fact we don't know enough
9:59
about these cultures to really use it as kind of leverage and
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suspense. But I feel like it's so
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interesting how she's like, she talks about like at the start of
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the book I kind of thought she was being poetic when she's
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like, and he killed me and I killed him and you're like, oh,
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she means this like metaphorically because she's
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just. I'm trying to think of an
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example. I think it's in her brother's
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letters to her. It's like, he's like, you killed
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me and all this stuff. And I think that she uses that
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quite well throughout it because actually killing someone in this
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world doesn't involve you actually killing them.
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It's like you the I don't know how to explain this, but the
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link between all the characters and how they've avoided death
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and they have in some sense tried to kill each other through
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not what these laws like. So I think it's like the
10:55
character Donna, her and Becky. Yeah.
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Right. So she by sleeping with Becky.
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Yeah. Kills her.
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And then Becky. Yeah, by choosing the band to
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put on her brother, kills him. And by him running away, kills
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their father. So that ink from the original
11:15
girl to him is like everyone is indirectly like killing each
11:21
other when they do something. Not that that girl knows at the
11:23
start, but it's like everyone is like and she's she, she writes
11:28
in the word she's like you've you, she's killed me or like
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she's killed this person or he's killed him.
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And it's like this eventual like something someone slights you in
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some way or breaks the law, you have the right to kill them.
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So by forcing someone to break the law or forcing someone into
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a scenario where they are going to get killed, it's like you
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have killed them and these people are forcing other people
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to break the law. In my head, it's like one
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decision has an effect on like so many people.
12:00
For example, the way you just explained that to me made me
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think about Grey's Anatomy. OK, you know, if Izzy didn't cut
12:10
the LVAD wires and which forced Burke to come back to Grey's
12:16
Anatomy, the hospital can't remember what it was called back
12:19
then. And then he got shocked, which
12:22
meant that he lost, like, power in his arm and all.
12:24
And then it was a whole thing with him and Christina.
12:26
And Christina had to like, you know, help him with the
12:28
surgeries, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's like Busy hadn't done that.
12:31
Then all these things wouldn't have happened.
12:33
I love that I was able to fit Grey's Anatomy.
12:36
Very, very similar. You know, the thing that it
12:40
shocked me in a way is that the father knows he's going to die
12:43
and he gets like a month. So then he becomes obsessed with
12:46
building that, like, pigeon house physical.
12:52
Yeah, I think, yeah. So I just said dove cut about 9
12:56
times there. It's about really weird.
12:57
Can you imagine, like would you not be terrified being like
13:00
every day knowing it's your last or like, how do you live it?
13:03
I. Kind of felt like he was the
13:06
nice, like he wanted to die like that.
13:10
So the whole thing in this law is that actually that's it's
13:13
better to die by someone else shooting you with a shotgun as a
13:18
man than to to die of old age or die of a disease or just to die
13:23
any other way. It's like this violent death as
13:25
part of the the blood feud is the best way of dying.
13:29
And I feel like the father wants to die like that.
13:33
So in a way he's I don't think of all the people that have kind
13:37
of avoided death through the the trail of people.
13:41
I feel like he is the one who kind of wants it the most and
13:45
the one who kind of benefits from it the most.
13:47
Like he's the one who's like he can die kind of happy, not
13:50
either that he's died in the way that's like the most masculine
13:54
and the most befitting to a man. So I kind of I kind of was like
13:58
when he died, I was like, I imagine he's making this stuff
14:02
kit and he's like really happy and he's like in my head and
14:06
like I get that he's probably I know that's not true, but kind
14:10
of if I was her accepted his. Feet.
14:14
Yeah, I feel like he's probably happier than anybody else.
14:20
You I would just feel like the absolute guilt of like, oh, like
14:24
I'm killing my family. But then I suppose it that's the
14:27
type of law and that's the things you're used to.
14:31
Does it still have that same effect?
14:33
I don't know. I think the guilt is definitely,
14:37
it's still mass. It's like a massive part of the
14:39
book for both brother and sister.
14:42
I yeah, I think that that kind of comes through in the the text
14:46
and like how she feels so guilty.
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And this is something that maybe I didn't fully understand about
14:52
the plot and is so basically she's lying to herself.
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So in Part 1, she she is told one day by her father that she's
15:05
getting married the next day and then you're led to believe that
15:12
then she is she's raped that night.
15:14
OK, which doesn't actually happen, but she's lied to
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herself. I don't know that she's lied to
15:19
anyone else, but she's lied to herself and by this kind of
15:25
vagrant, maybe slight like hinted at that he's mentally ill
15:30
man in the village has raped her that evening.
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And the the the the up. The offshoot of that is that if
15:39
she's not a virgin on her wedding night, she will be She's
15:44
Kim. Her father gives her future
15:46
husband a bullet to kill her with if she sees that she's not
15:50
a virgin, which obviously has a lot of medical like questions
15:56
raised. But basically then she's like,
15:59
I, I have to become a sworn virgin.
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And I feel like, was that a way of her her because I couldn't
16:05
understand why she made-up this lie in her own head that she
16:08
doesn't tell anyone else about her being raped.
16:11
And I was like, is that her way of absolving herself of the
16:15
guilt? Like if it wasn't her fault,
16:18
well, her fault in inverted commas that she's not a virgin.
16:22
Does that make her feel better about the the events that
16:26
happen? Yeah, like she's rewriting her
16:29
own history in order, Yeah, to make herself feel less guilty
16:34
about the choices that she's made.
16:36
Yeah, I couldn't find any other reason because when you find
16:39
out. So basically she like this girl
16:43
from another girl who's not really from the village but
16:46
comes to the village to meet her.
16:49
Like summers or something? Yeah, summertime or something.
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She comes a lot like holidays. Yeah, they sleep together
16:57
consensually so. And that's why she's then
17:02
frightened of not being a virgin and then becomes so then when
17:07
she becomes a sworn virgin, her. And it's it sets all this into
17:12
motion whereby the man she was supposed to marry, he can then
17:17
have a blood call a blood feud against her family and kill a
17:21
male member of her family. And because the the wedding
17:25
didn't happen. So to settle that score, then
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they get to kill a member of her family and she chooses her
17:31
brother and then her brother runs away because he doesn't
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doesn't want to get killed. And then the they kill her
17:40
father because of that. And so that's the kind of chain
17:42
of events. But she obviously feels an
17:44
extreme amount of guilt about it, which is the only reason I
17:46
can think that she would lie to her.
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The only person she's lying to is herself.
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But what I didn't know what you kind of felt about that.
17:52
Like, did you think she was? Like did you get the
17:55
significance of why she why that story is even in it?
18:00
You know what, I didn't hadn't really, really thought about it
18:02
until you started chatting about it, because I just the thing
18:06
that confused me as well is that like I had as my usual thing I
18:10
do, I go on see what other people think of the novel and
18:14
there was a review. I can't remember what website it
18:17
read it on, but they they literally quote it as that she
18:20
was raped. And I was like, no, in my head
18:23
she made that part up but they were saying no, that's what
18:27
actually happened in the story. So I before we chatted today, I
18:30
was like, I'm really confused on whether this actually happened
18:33
or have I read it completely wrong?
18:37
So that part I was like slightly confused about.
18:40
That's so strange. Yeah, I don't know.
18:44
I got the feeling. Not that she, but.
18:47
She to me it wasn't. But she's that's really
18:50
confusing because she says afterwards she's like, this is
18:52
the lie. But I don't know, maybe she's
18:55
referring to something else because there's other things she
18:57
lies about like the rabbit thing.
18:59
And that's so strange. No, I, I did not get that
19:04
impression. And I read the first part again.
19:07
I didn't finish the second part in my reread.
19:10
The second part is like 20 pages.
19:12
But him the first part, like I got the extreme feeling that
19:18
she'd made that she didn't like change the story.
19:24
But yeah, no, I am. Can we even?
19:26
Talk about going back to the start, this idea that like when
19:31
she's like in the womb and her fault, she hears her father
19:34
being like it has to be a boy or like wanting it to be a boy.
19:38
And then this whole is like, it's the saddest thing when
19:41
she's born because she's a girl, you know?
19:45
Yeah, I find that really interesting.
19:47
I really liked how it was done in the first part.
19:49
Like, I really like how it's like masculinity and being a boy
19:54
is like, so important. And then when she is born and
19:57
she is strong and she has all these masculine traits, Well,
20:01
not masculine traits per SE, but like, she wants to please her
20:04
dad because her dad, I don't think, has any expectations.
20:07
And so she exceeds all these expectations and gets all this
20:10
praise from her dad for behaving in a masculine way.
20:15
And I think the book really steers you towards the idea that
20:18
nothing feminine in this world is considered.
20:22
Noble because her mum isn't named.
20:24
Her dad and her brother are named.
20:26
She's named obviously and but it's like the her mum is like
20:31
almost not really even a character, even though it does
20:34
kind of every so often be like she's really sad and also like
20:38
her mum. There's definitely a part where
20:40
it's like her dad before he dies, wanted to be with her mum
20:44
and wanted to tell her mum something, but they never find
20:47
out. And then it's also kind of him
20:48
that it's just mentioned in passing that the mum dies
20:51
shortly after the dad with no real, well, I can't.
20:55
Maybe it happens in the second part, but with no real kind of
20:59
stuff about it. No, and I don't need click now
21:02
with me. You ever get Sometimes I feel
21:05
like because we do these books in such a short period of time,
21:09
sometimes I feel like I'm when I read it, I'm not taking it it
21:12
all in. So right now it's only just hit
21:14
me that I never even realized the mother did not have any.
21:17
Like she's just nameless. I think that's fine because
21:21
she's not really a character. I don't think that's something
21:22
that like, it's like it's just, it's just something that
21:26
happened to notice. I think it was only my second
21:28
time around that I was like, oh, she doesn't.
21:30
Do we ever find out? We might and I've just got that
21:32
wrong. And but yeah.
21:36
What about the brother? Like, I feel so bad for him
21:38
because it's supposed to be this joy that he's born.
21:41
He's male, you know, everything that they've supposedly wanted.
21:44
And the father just has such like disdain for him because
21:48
he's not really the man that he wants.
21:51
Yeah, I think it's really like these kind of extreme gender
21:56
stereotypes are not helpful for anyone.
22:00
I kind of thought though, was the father's fear what the
22:04
father saw in himself, because there's a part where the father
22:07
had like there's there's a bird or something.
22:10
I can't remember exactly what it is, but it's like they're all
22:13
sitting around eating like a cooked bird.
22:15
And the dad is like, really like he doesn't say anything
22:18
obviously, but you get the, the feeling that he's really upset
22:21
and disgusted with them for eating this bird that he
22:23
obviously quite likes. So I'm imagining that as a man
22:27
in this society and having a son, it's like, you know what
22:29
they're going to have to go through and you know the life
22:31
that they're going to have to have.
22:33
And you're kind of like they have to meet up to a certain
22:36
level or their lives are going to be so difficult.
22:39
Whereas I imagine he doesn't understand what it's like for a
22:43
woman at all. So he doesn't have these kind of
22:46
fears for his daughter. He just has these assumptions
22:49
that his daughter is going to remain pure and all this kind of
22:51
stuff. Yeah, and it also brings up to
22:55
me this idea still about, like, being anyway.
22:59
Queer is so frowned upon, like a boy showing even like, well,
23:04
this obviously isn't always related about feminine traits or
23:07
things like that or express in, you know, any way that they like
23:12
the other sex or whatever. It's like so frowned upon.
23:14
It's the most disgraceful thing you could do.
23:17
And I don't know, it still shocks me when we read books.
23:20
I've covered these topics because in my head everyone is
23:23
like free and love. Yeah.
23:26
I am so naive at times, but I really appreciate that this book
23:32
is still open in my eyes to like all their things.
23:36
Yeah, I kind of thought like, it's so interesting the way
23:39
because they both are implied to be quite queer, both of them.
23:43
And it's like how they treat one version to how they treat the
23:48
other version. It's kind of like, well, I
23:49
suppose you only really, you really see the judgment from the
23:52
father's eyes because again, the mother is barely a character.
23:55
So you kind of every so often the mum will almost be fearful
24:00
for like what the dad's going to say to the children.
24:03
And she's very that when her daughter starts the blood feud
24:07
because her father is kind of like, right, well, I'm a man,
24:12
I'll take this, I'll, I'll, I'll face death.
24:14
Whereas the mum knows exactly what's going to happen and knows
24:17
how much it's going to RIP apart the family.
24:20
And she doesn't get to just die with glory.
24:22
She has to deal with it, like has to pick up the faces.
24:25
And she'll never have the big mineral or this big like faff
24:28
about her. She just has to get on with it.
24:30
And there's no freedom or glory in her life.
24:33
And I think that's possibly the fact that the mother is so not
24:38
spoken about is the idea of this is what it's like for a woman in
24:42
this society. And yeah, and Becky has this
24:46
opportunity to rise above womanhood in this strange way
24:51
and to to become what everybody wants a person to be.
24:56
So her queerness is almost accepted.
25:00
And like, in this like, and it is like, I don't think that
25:04
there's a lot of societies and cultures that that let women do
25:09
this kind of thing, especially in the way that happens, you
25:11
know, where, where she's supposed to be getting married.
25:13
And then all of a sudden she's like, no, I'm going to go off.
25:16
I suppose a lot of sites we have like nuns and things like that
25:20
and women who are allowed to just, but they're not, they're
25:23
not allowed to just become men. They're not allowed to go to pub
25:25
and stand certain ways and be masculine.
25:29
But it is kind of like her. She has this out for her
25:33
queerness. And he doesn't like he has none,
25:36
he has nothing. He's completely.
25:40
Like he literally has to run away to kind of be free.
25:44
You know what? I was just this silly, silly
25:46
thought came into my head as we were chatting there.
25:48
But you know what this Warren Virgin type thing reminds me of
25:52
is, you know, when Mulan where she pretends to be a man so she
25:55
can fight, you know, on behalf of her father and stuff.
26:00
And I was like, oh, that just really reminds me of the idea
26:03
where she could be. She became this masculine
26:06
figure. You know, I don't know where I'm
26:11
going with that at all, but that's.
26:14
More maybe, I don't know off the top of my head.
26:16
There's maybe more examples in history of women being able to
26:20
become men and they're they're all the.
26:23
Ones that have became doctors and they die, that they figure
26:28
out that they're actually men. Yeah, there was.
26:30
No, I mean, yeah. There was Oh yeah, there was
26:33
like an I think she was from like Cork, but she basically
26:37
took her uncle who wasn't that much older than her.
26:40
He died like identity and went and lived in like South Africa
26:44
and became a doctor. And then I think she'd written
26:48
in her like actually probably shouldn't say she because she
26:51
lived vast majority of her life as a man.
26:54
And they put their like on their kind of like when they died,
26:59
like their will just like do not do an autopsy.
27:02
Just bury me immediately. But then for some reason they
27:05
ended up actually like, looking at this person and being like,
27:09
oh, OK, this person has been a female for like, the whole time.
27:14
And but yeah, I think you can get away with that better.
27:19
Yeah, I really like that idea you pointed out to me as well,
27:22
this idea that she is able to, you know, become this sworn
27:27
virgin and kind of accept that new life where her brother
27:30
literally just had to. Like, Can you imagine the guilt
27:32
of the brother as well? Like putting that band and the
27:35
father and running for his life because you know, he like
27:42
obviously wants to live, but like possibly is like a more
27:46
authentic version of himself or to escape, well, these
27:51
traditions. Do you think, though, that she
27:54
put because it is quite a surprise when she puts the band
27:58
on her brother to choose him to die?
28:02
And I was like, and it kind of is like, I'm pretty sure she
28:06
does he say it or does she say it where they're like, you did
28:09
this so I could escape kind of thing.
28:11
Because he wouldn't have been able to have a reason to just
28:14
leave and he needed to leave. He couldn't have stayed there
28:17
being himself. Yeah.
28:19
So in a way. Yeah, because if the father
28:24
died, then he probably would have had to be head of the
28:26
household then. So I imagine that's how like
28:32
stereotypical patriarchy things go.
28:36
The man takes over. But I, I know you don't like the
28:42
second-half. OK, but OK.
28:46
So things I really liked about the book, they let they like the
28:49
letter writing type things where the brother writes the letter to
28:53
them and he's like, talk about that night, you know, and she
28:58
sent to the journalist like, please, can you read my letters?
29:02
I really, really like that and I really like.
29:06
Well, do you want to talk about that first and then I I'll talk
29:09
a bit more about. The later half, I really like
29:13
the the letters. So basically, the journalist can
29:18
read these letters to this woman who can't read or write to tell
29:21
her that her brother has been kind of asking for her.
29:25
And her brother has talked about his guilt and how he, he wants
29:30
to make things right. And he knows what happened
29:32
between her and the woman the night before she was supposed to
29:35
get married. So he knows the chain of events
29:39
and he kind of, he wants them to be really open about it so that
29:43
they can both kind of forgive each other and move on.
29:46
And he thinks the only way to heal is, is to do this.
29:49
And there's one quote I really like.
29:51
And it's like, and you must understand why I had to do what
29:54
I did, why I ran away, that I did it because of the enormous,
29:58
irreparable mistake you made. You do understand it's
30:02
completely within the bonds of 1's survival instincts to want
30:05
to save oneself. And I think that like, and then
30:08
he says, I can't apologize for it.
30:09
It is who I am and I can't like, I love the letter.
30:14
The letters are brilliant, I have to say in the first part.
30:19
Yeah, I know because I was looking over them and it was
30:22
like, you know, the one where he says it occurred to me that it
30:26
wasn't enough for you to be Daddy's boy.
30:28
You wanted to be something more, you know, I really like like he,
30:33
he gets it. Like he sees what's happening.
30:35
You know that she wants to be this like son like, and always
30:41
kind of has been. I, I really like those.
30:46
Or I've been thinking a lot about forgiveness lately.
30:50
I think our souls find peace when we are able to show
30:52
forgiveness to one another. But before all that, there must
30:56
be truth. I will ask you again, what
30:58
happened at the Derry that evening when you returned home
31:01
so late? It's like done.
31:05
I love it. I thought it was really good.
31:07
Really. Yeah.
31:08
You're like, what really happened?
31:10
So here, right? So I really like this one, this
31:13
quote. So truth or dare?
31:15
Back then, we thought the weaker always chose truth because they
31:19
were afraid of being bold. I realized now that picking
31:21
trust was always the braver choice.
31:24
Dare was for the liars, the cowards who masked themselves
31:27
behind their bravery, for those who prefer to jump in the river,
31:30
to run away or kill instead of telling the truth.
31:33
And that is kind of what the whole Canon law blood feud stuff
31:37
is all about. It's like they can't face and
31:40
repair relationships and damage so they have to choose violence
31:44
to to just put all these things to bed where they could just
31:47
speak to each other. That was just like a fantastic
31:51
little paragraph. Like that's what I'm talking
31:53
about. Like some of the books we've
31:54
been really reading recently, there was like concise,
31:57
beautiful, really hard hitting, like little paragraphs where
32:01
they make you think and like they sit with you for a minute.
32:05
No, I think I think like those letters are probably some of the
32:09
best things that I've like. I've underlined so much of this
32:12
book and I think actually some, and especially those letters are
32:14
just fantastic. I wish there was more like less
32:17
kind of poetry, more letters type thing throughout because I
32:21
enjoyed them so much. Yeah.
32:24
And my, my big thing is that I absolutely, I hate Part 2.
32:30
I think it goes from being a fantastic book to being an
32:34
airport book really quickly. She goes to visit her brother.
32:38
She's decided she's going to go visit her brother and she has
32:42
like a really bad stomach. And then she ends up in hospital
32:45
and then it's discovered. This is the part that I don't
32:48
like that there's like this calcified like fetus that's
32:53
like. Attached to her.
32:55
Again, a Grey's Grey's Anatomy episode you ever want to watch?
33:01
That's what I didn't like. I really just didn't enjoy that
33:04
part. Is that?
33:06
Yeah, that I didn't really love the I don't know the because she
33:12
meets your woman Donna again. I was kind of a bit like they it
33:16
all got a bit too much and it was really quick as well.
33:19
It's like not that long the second part and it's really like
33:23
it just is an aeroplane book. Like it totally is.
33:25
It's like it's just drama, high drama, too much drama, too much
33:32
meeting, meeting the brother again, all this stuff that it
33:35
went from. And I get I get that it kind of
33:37
something needed to happen, but I actually think if they did
33:40
just cut Part 2, I just thought that was like 5 out of like 4
33:45
1/2 out of five. Really good novel five out of
33:48
five. And then I think it, it actually
33:50
just wrecked it for me. And I think one of the main,
33:53
sorry to run, one of the main reasons I don't have the queen
33:56
thing is because I feel like she's done so much about gender
34:00
and like the idea of the masculine insider.
34:02
And then I think the example of her actually having her brother,
34:07
her brother's fetus growing in her body was like, OK, that's
34:11
too obvious. An example of like, it's like
34:14
you've already done this, like you've, you've built the point.
34:17
I understand the importance of gender.
34:20
And then I just thought this was just overkill and didn't add
34:23
anything. It didn't add anything about
34:25
gender for it or change any of the stuff that happened earlier
34:28
on. So yeah, yeah, he did it.
34:32
I really liked, though, that like, last letter from Donna and
34:41
she's talking about how she's like, obviously they've had this
34:44
like, moment, like the dare so before telling each other that
34:47
they love each other and whatnot.
34:50
And it's like, oh, I quite like that.
34:52
You know, they find each other again and you think it's going
34:55
to be like a little happy ending almost.
34:57
And then she wakes up to this letter.
34:59
And then, yeah, I quite liked where she talked about, like her
35:05
feelings of grief. You know, they haven't gone or
35:08
sorry, not grief, sorry, guilt. These feelings of guilt haven't
35:11
gone. And, and to where it's like it
35:15
must be, it must be written for you and me to be eternally
35:18
separated by something and to shoulder the responsibility
35:21
before God for every indirect murder we've committed.
35:25
I really liked that part. So I don't.
35:28
And the reason is it makes everything too obvious.
35:32
It's like we already knew that we already knew about their
35:34
indirect like I would rather not have it told to me because I
35:39
really, I think you'll already make that link because you are
35:42
like all the people that they're like.
35:44
And I think it's in the scene where you kind of find out that
35:47
they slept together. There's like a thing where she's
35:50
like you, you've killed me. And it's like all these indirect
35:53
murders. It's like the whole point of it.
35:55
But it's like, you don't need to say.
35:57
It doesn't need to be a line like this.
36:00
Is I don't mind if she said that.
36:02
No, that's fine and you get to have and I'll allow you to have
36:05
an opinion about it, but it's just wrong.
36:09
It's just massive. It reminds me of it really
36:12
reminded me of that bird one. What was it in the opposite,
36:17
Under the Eye, The Big Bird, where it's like, oh, no, I don't
36:21
even remember what happened in that book.
36:23
Under the Eye, the Big Bird. It's like the last chapter, The
36:27
last two chapters just tell you what you've been reading the
36:30
whole time, just packaged back to you.
36:33
Like, I don't need that. I'm not like, I already know
36:36
this. I don't like I yeah, I don't
36:38
need it. All in a nice, neat little
36:40
package. I'd like to be left at least.
36:43
Well, I don't like a fairy tale type novel either.
36:46
Like I hate this like Americanization of things where
36:49
everything has to be tied up really nicely, like in a little
36:51
bow. I like the more like French hard
36:54
hitting endings of like destruction and like love and
36:59
murder and all. Like if you've ever watched
37:01
eight women and all, you'll get those type of things.
37:04
But I, yeah, I think cut the whole dead fetus inside of her
37:10
type thing. And I had also heard going back,
37:15
I was quite surprised that she went back.
37:16
I thought she would have said with her brother.
37:19
I mean I'm fine with her never going to see her brother.
37:21
I just cut Part 1. Cut cut.
37:25
The you know what? Get rid of it.
37:27
I don't actually really get the point because now that I think
37:30
about it, like, why does she go see her brother?
37:32
Because there's no real point to it.
37:34
Like, they don't seem to have like some deep discussion and,
37:37
you know, resolve. I feel like they do kind of be
37:40
like, so it's too difficult for them to have the conversation.
37:43
So they don't have a conversation, which I think is
37:46
more the realistic part of the last bit.
37:48
But it's kind of like the way it is, is like the journalist is
37:51
reading her brother's last letter and it's like you've got
37:53
two weeks to get here. And this is when it becomes just
37:56
so airporting. It's like, I'm on the plane and
37:59
I'm getting into this plot, but it's like, it's like you've got
38:04
two weeks to get there. And it's like she's got to she's
38:06
got to repair the relationship with her brother and she's got a
38:10
see whether or not love works out.
38:12
And then she's also got a her twin fetus in her.
38:16
So she's got like she's somebody like it's like so many plot
38:20
threads that are like being solved in like 30 pages.
38:23
And I just, I hate it. I'm so I was so angry when I was
38:27
reading it. I was like, and I don't think it
38:29
took me to my second read to be like, OK, actually just cut this
38:33
last bit. Just just get rid of it.
38:35
So if you ever need an editor and Renee, I'm here.
38:41
So wait, can we talk about the ending?
38:45
So she comes off the bus, so right, she heads back to
38:48
Albania, she gets this bus or whatever comes home.
38:53
And then we, I thought she had let like all her animals go or
38:59
whatnot because she was going to be gone.
39:01
My interpretation is that when she was going to see her
39:04
brother, she accepted that like she was never coming home again.
39:08
So in my head she was like setting the animals free and
39:11
just going. I kind of thought, is she not
39:14
like leaving a mom and coming back a woman?
39:19
Wow, I didn't even think about that.
39:22
Is it like I can do that? Because I feel like she's just
39:25
kind of like killed her life and she's dresses in her brother's
39:28
clothes. But then I think when when she
39:30
comes back, doesn't she referred to herself as a woman even
39:33
though she didn't she didn't really before.
39:37
Oh yeah, because it's the woman who's headed to where my NIA
39:40
means, she who lives, she who remains alive, she who has saved
39:43
herself. And then what's her name?
39:46
Becky But yeah, because I'm yeah, I feel like it switches
39:52
back to to female at the end, which I kind of saw as like her
39:56
accepting the fact that the Canon rules don't really mean
40:00
anything and that she is. I don't know, but I could be
40:03
very wrong about that. That seems like something I
40:06
can't put on a person. Sometimes I'm like, this is
40:10
where I feel kind of stupid sometimes when reading these
40:12
pics, but it sounds like when she gets up and goes to embrace
40:16
the woman we're and it's like in this moment, the two women feel
40:26
immortality. Is that like Donna Cups or is it
40:31
like the two bits of herself? That's where I have to admit
40:35
that I didn't reread the end of it.
40:37
So you. Know the last literal last like
40:43
2 years I. Think I'm saying this night,
40:45
yeah. So she's like this is where it's
40:49
so airplane like. It's like, is she embracing
40:52
herself or is it like, is it Donna?
40:56
He just happens to be there, who was supposed to be in London,
40:58
you know? What was that?
41:02
You know, she has a pet coy that she loves.
41:05
Yeah. I don't know.
41:07
I'm. Is it?
41:07
Her. I I'm I don't know how I feel
41:12
about the end, so I'm I'm it could well.
41:15
Then didn't kind of ruined it for me.
41:17
Yeah, I don't. Sorry, Hannah.
41:21
I reckon, you know what I reckon I see your point about Part 2.
41:26
I think I just really enjoyed the letter writing part.
41:29
So I forgot that the whole like, fetus thing existed.
41:33
But yeah, I think I had scored this novel quite high when it
41:37
started. And then as we got closer and
41:40
closer to the end, it kind of went like.
41:43
I think that, yeah, I think for me it was so like, I'm
41:47
absolutely loving this. This is so good.
41:49
And then I can get made me more annoyed, annoyed, annoyed the
41:52
ending because I was like, OK, this is this is this is
41:55
ridiculous. And I think especially at the
41:57
twin point, it was like I got a switch had been made where I was
42:01
like, I'm all it's off now. Yeah.
42:04
I think because it just comes out like sort of way left field
42:07
in a way, Like it's just not what I was expecting.
42:09
Like, yeah, no, just when I think about it, now that we've
42:15
discussed it more, yeah, the second-half.
42:17
But you know what? I still really like the first
42:18
time. And that's when I was like, oh,
42:20
I think I should get a subscription because we read
42:23
another one for the Queen Mary press on the Greenwich line, and
42:27
I thought that was really good as well.
42:30
That was my whole discussion today, whether I should treat
42:32
myself. I think it looks really good,
42:36
like Pioneer, really good. Self preservation is such a
42:39
massive thing and like saving yourself.
42:41
I don't know if we've kind of talked about this indirectly,
42:43
but just like the idea she. Saves herself.
42:47
Do you think she saves herself? I.
42:49
Think in a very literal sense she does because I don't think
42:52
she wants to become a sworn virgin.
42:53
I think she's just like, this is my only option other than death.
42:57
And I kind of wish there's another book on the long list,
43:01
which is Women Without men. But I think you'd really like, I
43:06
think you should read it on it. I'll lend it to you.
43:08
And yeah, it's like there's another kind of, there's a plot
43:12
within it which is similar to this in which it's like, you can
43:17
be proven to be a virgin like by by checking.
43:21
So because effectively on Becky's wedding night, her
43:24
husband has the right to like look at her and be like, oh, she
43:27
is or is not a virgin, which is, which is obviously madness and
43:32
medically not possible. So like it's a really scary
43:37
thing in in the world that you could just, and you know, it's
43:42
something that you would hope wouldn't be happening in modern
43:44
day, but like the idea that you could just be like someone could
43:48
just kill you because they think you're not a virgin.
43:51
And I kind of was thinking as well, because she's so like
43:56
active and out, like running about and everything.
43:58
It's like, could she just be seen as not a virgin?
44:03
Because that happens. Like you're like, I'm pretty.
44:06
Well, that's what I was thinking.
44:08
I was like, you know, the way they always joke about women
44:10
and, like, horse riding and all, or like women who do gymnastics.
44:14
Yeah, like that. And then I'm like, what happens?
44:18
So obviously my mind wanders and it's like, what about all these
44:20
other women out there who, like, have never bitten with anyone
44:25
else, but then their partner might think they're not a virgin
44:29
and then they'd be shot. Well, that's this one of the
44:32
characters in that women without men.
44:34
It's like she, someone tells her it's quite, it's it's told quite
44:40
funny, which is the horrible part of it.
44:42
But it's like this woman, I love it.
44:44
This woman tells her in like a gossipy way.
44:46
She's like about virginity and stuff.
44:48
And the girl, the woman in question has been told by her
44:53
mother that the truthful medical thing where she's like it
44:57
doesn't your virginity, you might have lost it accidentally,
45:01
you know, not through like sexual means like you.
45:04
You're I'm assuming it's your hymen can break it any.
45:07
Yeah, for many as a reason. So her mom's like explaining
45:11
because she's obviously had to go to the doctor for something.
45:13
They don't disclose it, but it's like she's had to go to the
45:15
doctor and the doctors told her hymen's been broken when she was
45:19
a child. And then this woman tells her in
45:23
like this gossipy way that that's actually not possible.
45:25
And the doctors say it's that if you're not a virgin, that's
45:30
because you've definitely had sex so.
45:32
It's. I might have to read this one,
45:33
you know. It's so good.
45:34
I'm really sad it wasn't in the because I was like, these two
45:37
work so well together if you talk about them together.
45:40
I wish we found out a bit more about this journalist other than
45:43
her name is Mrs. Journalist. Like, and I know that they're
45:46
there for, like, to interview at least, like her sworn, like
45:50
being the sworn virgin and things like that.
45:52
But maybe a bit more. It's quite interesting because
45:54
again, they're just like a real background character that I
45:56
didn't think about, but I feel like that could have been quite
45:58
cool. Yeah.
46:00
As like either way. It was maybe wasted a bit, that
46:02
whole thing. It was like, I get it because
46:05
there have been so many people have interviewed those sworn
46:07
virgins and stuff recently, so I get that that's there, but it
46:10
kind of is thrown in every so often.
46:11
She's like Mrs. Journalist and apart from apart from that, you
46:15
would have no reason to believe who she's speaking to or if
46:19
she's even speaking to anyone. And it's not her consciousness.
46:22
Do you know what I mean? It's kind of strange in the way
46:25
that it's told, and I think it makes it harder to start
46:27
reading. Yeah.
46:29
What about the name of the book, like the title?
46:32
What do you think? Do you like it or would?
46:34
You. Like put a call in and give it
46:37
something else? I actually do like it and I
46:40
think that it's quite the fact. I don't know what the actual,
46:45
maybe we should have looked it up, what the Bulgarian was.
46:49
The fact that they've kind of gone, OK, we're going to give
46:52
her a gender because I think it could have been impressing
46:56
anyway. You did it like if they who
46:58
remain or he who remains could have worked as well as she who
47:04
remains. But I think maybe something is
47:08
being told in that. But again, I, I'm just looking
47:11
at the original Bulgarian language title and I, I can't
47:14
say that and I don't know what it means.
47:17
So we probably would need a rough translation of whether or
47:20
not this is like a, an exact translation from the Bulgarian
47:25
or if it's just a new name altogether.
47:28
And. I really like it.
47:30
Yeah, Yeah. And I also really liked the
47:35
cover and I think I have a, because I have mine on Kindle, I
47:38
have a slightly different cover, I think than yours.
47:41
Like, let's see it. Wait, I don't.
47:43
So it's like a shape of a man. And then in there there's a
47:46
female's face. Yes.
47:49
So I really like that. Let's rate this book and give
47:52
our bookies odds on whether or not this book will win.
47:56
I'll start us off. I think I'm this, it pains me to
48:01
do this, but I think I'm going to get this a three out of five.
48:03
And it's only because of the Part 2.
48:06
This would be very highly rated if it weren't for Part 2.
48:09
So that's what I have to say about that.
48:12
And I wouldn't mind if it won. And I think it's really
48:17
excellent book. Again, I'm, I'd be so happy if
48:21
it won if Part 2 didn't exist. But I I kind of have a feeling
48:24
I'm maybe going to rate other books higher and I have already
48:28
rated On Earth as it is Beneath higher, which I again feel bad
48:31
because I think at the best times of this book are better
48:34
than the best times of On Earth as it is Beneath.
48:37
This is the problem of reading books.
48:39
It's really horrible. And yeah, I'd be happy for one.
48:43
I don't think it will win. Yeah, I'm actually in agreement
48:46
with you, Lucy, for once. This is so shocking.
48:49
But I had thought about giving it like a four when I first
48:54
started reading it. And then as time went on, I was
48:58
like, and I think when I think about it overall, it's like a
49:02
three. Like like you said, there's so
49:03
many good parts in the start of it.
49:05
And then when you think of concepts, you know, later on in
49:08
the book, it's just a bit like disjointed for me.
49:10
And also there were times where I thought, you know, the poetry
49:14
and then and then into like more of the novel.
49:17
And I don't know, for me, there was a bit of like a disconnect.
49:20
But I think, I'm not even sure now if I reread it again, would
49:23
they give it something higher? But I really enjoyed last week's
49:27
book On Earth as is on Earth, as is beneath, really enjoyed it.
49:32
And I did rate that quite high at like 3.75.
49:36
Very precise and spoiler as well.
49:40
I've seen loads of people talking about a few other books
49:43
on the shortlist and saying they're they're really good.
49:47
So in my head this isn't going to win.
49:50
But like you Lucy, I really wouldn't be mad if it wasn't
49:53
like there is some really, really good parts in it.
49:56
And I also really enjoy like the versions of the covers I've seen
50:00
as well. So it's it's up there, but for
50:03
me it's just not my winner. Join the book club and read
50:06
along with us. The next book we're tackling on
50:09
the shortlist is Taiwan Travelogue by Yang Shuangxi,
50:13
translated from the Mandarin Chinese by Lynn King.
50:16
You like our discussion on this book?
50:18
You might like our other episodes covering the
50:22
International Booker Prize shortlist.
50:24
Our socials and e-mail are in the description.
50:26
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50:28
you get your podcasts, and rate US five stars.
50:31
Well, Lucy, let's end this on a quote from She who Remains.
50:38
My name means she who survives, she who remains alive, she who
50:43
saves herself.