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Spiderman No Way Home - a review of all things Spidey! · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy creatives and fantasy
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  fans. My name is Julia Gauding. I am the director of the Oxford Centre for Fantasy and also
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  an author. And today I'm joined by our Marvel fan Edward. And we're going to be talking
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  about Spider-Man No Way Home, which in this week has just topped over a billion in
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  taking globally and has joined the ranks of the 10 highest grossing films. So it's clearly
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  made swung in with a great impact on to the cinematic scene this year. We should give
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  a quick shout out at the very beginning to the writers because when people talk about
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  films the writers often get forgotten. So I want to make sure that we all recognise the
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  work of Chris McKenna and Eric Summers in writing the script for this particular film.
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  But before we go to review the film I think it'd be interesting to review where Spider-Man
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  came from and how it fits within the Marvel Universe. So Edward there's obviously been
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  many Spider-Man films before but what is the story of how Spider-Man came to join the
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  Marvel Universe and be made by Marvel Studios? It's a pleasure to be back. So Spider-Man
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  was a character made by Marvel, Marvel the comic company at least, but at some point
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  along the road they sold off the film rights to him and most of their other characters that
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  were making a lot of money at the time. And so Marvel Studios as it exists today wasn't
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  around when they started making Marvel Spider-Man films and instead it was Sony who owned
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  all the rights. So those first Toby McGuire films came from Sony owning the film rights
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  and making the stories from there and they had three films, all of which did pretty well.
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  But they decided to not continue it to a fourth and instead reboot Spider-Man if you like
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  with another what was meant to be at least another trilogy and by this time Marvel had made
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  their own film studio and had started off their films but then we got some Andrew Garfield
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  films. That's the amazing Spider-Man. Yeah so they had the prefix, the amazing instead
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  and they had one film which had moderate success and then a second film which was pretty
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  panned with these critically and I'm pretty sure commercially and they decided to eventually
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  strike a deal with Marvel Studios now owned by Disney to sort of collaborate together and that's
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  how we ended up with I guess they're called the home trilogy because they all got home in their title
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  with Tom Holland. So just before we move on to the Tom Holland series I'm interested in the
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  failure as well as success. So why do you think the second amazing Spider-Man film failed?
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  It happens to be the only one I haven't seen. I've seen all the others and I had a reason
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  personal reason for not wanting to see the second one and I wondered if that was part of the
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  problem because I know it has a very unhappy turn in it doesn't it? Yeah I mean spoilers for
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  probably I guess it's probably 10 years by now I'm not quite sure. I think we're now to say. Yeah
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  no it has it has a sad moment in it and to be honest that's probably the bit of the film that
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  works best and is used in this new film against what is on that retrospectively. There is
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  actually if you want somebody a more expert opinion on why it wasn't a success there are actually
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  some published notes there was an email hack I don't know if you remember of Sony and loads of
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  stuff came out in that about Spider-Man and one of the things was some communication between Sony
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  and Kevin Feige who's you know the architect for the Marvel Cinematic Universe and he basically went
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  through a list of changes he would have made and things he didn't think worked which you seem
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  to have been proving mostly right on but the general notes I think are they they were trying to do
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  too much really they were trying to set up a whole series of other films they could spin out from
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  it and kind of had a bit of a confused mess as a result they they had I'm trying to remember
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  quite how many I think it was technically three different villains in the amazing Spider-Man 2
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  but they also had a basement where you could it was full of villain suits which isn't really a very
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  compelling character origin to then say oh well if you want to be the villain the rhino you just
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  go to that basement and you put on the suit and then now you're the villain the rhino there was a lot
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  of weird convolution in that series they were trying to have this angle where his parents were like
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  cool spies or something so they threw everything in the kitchen sink at it and something about
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  that meant it collapsed under the weight of its own accumulated narrative yeah I mean I
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  personally I still quite enjoyed the film I don't I think it's a mess don't get me wrong but I
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  think it's got some really effective scenes in it Andrew Garfield is a great actor I mean
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  I don't think he's not his thought that the film doesn't succeed he may be miscast by the age
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  he's doing that well it is it is pretty funny to see I mean this is a problem in at least the first two
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  tragedies to see a 20 well 28 possibly 30s year old man go around pretending that they're a high
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  and the teachers look about the same age in a lot of cases okay so let's turn to Tom Holland to
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  join the Marvel Universe not in his own film to begin with he began in the Avengers didn't he
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  he was sort of first introduced gently that way yes so rather unusual first entry for him in that
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  yes it was in there it wasn't technically an Avengers film but it basically was it was in
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  Captain America Civil War and there he had just a short appearance really but they they knew
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  what they were doing and knew it was a big character to be introducing and I think it was quite a
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  fairly it was a fairly late addition to that film and it seems that quite a lot of changes in
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  these Spider-Man films get made as the planets align with studio decisions and agreements being
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  reached and the deal came in just in time for him to be put in it so they changed quite a lot
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  about what had been done previously with the character to make him fit in there in such an
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  unusual point because he didn't have like a full origin in that story they had to make it shorter
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  and make it fit and I think they quite a large extent they could rely on this is very famous
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  character you don't really need to explain where he's from most people know I think at least
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  certainly most people who are going to go see Captain America Civil War will know Spider-Man his
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  name is Peter Parker he got bitten by a radioactive spider his uncle was murdered with great power
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  comes great responsibility superhero that's been in there since his origin and their elements
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  that work and so then he Tom Holland was then in his own film which was Spider-Man Homecoming
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  and that's the one about the Homecoming Dance and he was convincingly a high schooler because
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  what I think he was in his late teens wasn't he he'd come out of being a dancer on the Billy Elliot
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  stage show and then this was one of his first major roles on screen yes he was very late teens
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  or at least early 20s yeah so they didn't make the same mistake of having someone too old he
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  looked like he could be walking he still does actually look quite very young so he gets away with
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  it in a way he's one of those useful actors a bit like Elijah Wood or Daniel Radcliffe he's got
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  that young look he's going to have that for a long time I think so you had the Spider-Man Homecoming
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  and then my personal favorite of all of them is Spider-Man Far From Home which is the one where they
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  go on the school trip I like all the stuff with the teachers that makes me laugh and then we've just
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  had this latest installment which is Spider-Man No Way Home which was set up in a one of those
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  right at the end scenes where they reveal something which then they pick up in the next film
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  and this one was that his real identity had been exposed to the world so we knew this was coming
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  we knew roughly where he was what his dilemma was before the film came out did you have much
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  hopes for this film did you know it's going to be good or did you expect it not to hit the right
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  notes I think I knew I would enjoy it the directors it was the same director for all three of the
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  Tom Holland films that's John Watts yeah he's proved himself to be very very capable and I thought
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  it's important to remember with all the marketing around this it was kind of a poorly kept secret that
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  they have other Spider-Man in it so if you haven't seen the film now and you don't want to know yeah
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  if you don't want to know about the major plot points in it stop listening go and watch it and
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  then come back and see if you agree with our review of it because I don't think we can
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  sensibly talk about it without saying there are other Spider-Man because it is the best bit
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  yeah maybe a full spoiler yeah well we will yeah but yeah no I thought that I would probably
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  enjoy it but I wasn't necessarily expecting it to come together as a story and I don't know if it
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  not everything in it did I think not everything made sense but it did make a consistent narrative
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  in a way that I didn't think it would I I thought that it would probably be just quite a fan
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  servicie fun ride which it was but it did it also have I think it's fair to say a plot and an arc
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  in it yes it has basically three acts which is quite classic it's got an opening act which is
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  spider-man saying I've been exposed I want to undo that so the beginning of the film is all about
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  the and the shortest part is all about what happens to him when he becomes too famous a bit of a
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  hate figure the impact on his friends and family and the middle act is he's gone to Dr. Strange to
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  have that process reversed so he can go back to how things were and that's when the previous
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  villains start coming into his universe as a collision of this multiverse and that's the
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  weakest part I think is to if unless you absolutely know who all these villains are some of the
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  emotional impact or that is muffled I think it's it's oh this person turns up and this person
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  they're actually five villains who come back only three of which really get proper screen
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  treatment so I think they may have overdone the number of villains and then the last act is
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  really the best one I think with the return of the other two spider-men and the strongest
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  and most emotional films are part of the film is when they're talking to each other and supporting
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  each other from their different perspectives of maturity with Tom Holland's character being
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  the youngest and the Toby McGuire character being the oldest and there is a very pleasing way
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  they tie up some of the threads that were left trailing in the other two series there's a moment
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  for redemption for each of the other two spider-men which I thought was great that was very nice
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  and made a wonderful story arc a bit over long do you think it was um I think that it earned
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  its run time to be honest I don't know if I necessarily agree that the the middle bit was weakest
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  but maybe that's just because I appreciate seeing these returning turning villains but what about
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  that Sandman character who gets practically there's him and see I can't even remember there's
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  I was wondering who you think the three who is green goblin so yeah so he gets good treatment
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  spurs guy so to see and did you think the third that had good treatment was the
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  I can't magnetic one oh do you mean a lecturer a lecturer oh yeah with a sparky yeah
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  it's a bit of a sudden you know if I'd even include him on the list really I think that
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  doc to architect green goblin got you know dedicated time and the other three were there to sort
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  of round out the villains yeah particularly the Sandman one that's actually somewhere where
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  it doesn't really work with the character they had established in previous films I don't
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  remember that much about him to be honest but I'm pretty sure that he was basically a good guy
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  by the end and he starts this film as a quite good guy as well and then just at some point
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  decides he's going to join the baddies I think there's maybe a missing plot beat in there
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  which would sort of I don't know convince him that he actually needs to team up with them
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  and then the the lizard is a bit of a weird character the lizard thank you I've
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  see I've forgotten him it shows that there was something wrong there in the storytelling I mean
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  he was probably one of the weaker villains they ever had to be honest so I guess it makes
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  sense that he wasn't as well used I suppose one of the things they're trying to do is match
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  the good guys who are obviously Spider-Man and his two friends what two other Spider-Man
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  no no MJ and Ned and then the other two Spider-Man so you get five and five
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  yes I mean there's an interesting thing there which is famously Spider-Man fights the sinister six
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  who the exact roster tends to vary a bit but is usually this is in the world of the comics is it
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  yes and other consequent media and I think that they were really angling for six and couldn't
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  quite make it work in the end it couldn't quite find somebody else and it was already established
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  oh my goodness then you'd have to have in there must be a villain that they didn't use they could
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  have brought like rhino guy that Russian rhino guy he would have even less treatment in the film I
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  think but at least it would be six and I know that they did have I mean it's much more than
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  after thought really but they did technically have venom in their film you could have been it
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  probably made more and I suppose Dr Strange was also in it though to say he was on the good guy
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  side he is actually an antagonistic presence for much of it yeah he's got a lot to answer for
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  he certainly has I mean we'll come to him in a minute because I think that's a part where the plot
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  doesn't quite hold together but I think it's important to say that one of the successful things that
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  this particular um film did is that the fight wasn't about let's defeat the bad guy it's a fight
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  about what can we do for the bad guy and I like that I really like the fact that they were
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  the stance that's by the man Tom Holland is taking is we can't just go and crush the bad guy
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  because that has the some of the bad guys are the result of that having happened to them
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  what you do with your power produces gets the backlash and then he's trying to break that circle
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  at great cost we won't spoil the plot totally for that but there is a great cost that is
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  levied as a result of that decision I think we should maybe talk about it okay okay okay again
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  this is a spoiler warning here so I think that so the big change the big twist that we're talking
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  about is that um somewhere in the middle of the film prior to the final act sort of getting started
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  is Aunt May his only living family is killed by the green goblin and that sort of sets him on
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  this arc of vengeance until he gets the influence of the other spider-man and I thought that that
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  was an interesting choice because one thing that's been pointed out by quite a lot of commentator
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  sense is that this trilogy now sort of forms its own spider-man origin story and where they've left
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  instead of Uncle Ben dying as his sort of classic version Aunt May and perhaps you could argue
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  a combination of Iron Man who's also dead by now and was a father type figure they serve as
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  the motivation if you like for his super heroics and in fact there doesn't actually
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  there's not necessarily ever been an Uncle Ben to this spider-man I don't think it's
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  explicitly mentioned at any point that there was an Uncle Ben who said something about with great
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  power comes great responsibility and so I think it forms quite a neat like trilogy on its own
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  as a result of that and I think it does make for quite a good scene between between the two actors
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  I think on the theme of the women in the film that another the strongest Mary Jane or MJ in this
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  case is in this group of spider-man films because the way Zen Deia plays it as this sardonic
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  presence I think it's absolutely charming and has broken a mold in that she there is nothing
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  traditional about that kind of girlfriend I think she has a really fresh presence and I have
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  enjoyed watching every moment of her on screen as a result so I thought that was very successful
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  she never felt like a sort of side you know appendage she felt like a strong person in her own right
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  yeah I mean Kirsten Dunn still spend most of the Tobian McGuire films being kidnapped by a villain
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  taken to a high place and then has to scream whilst spider-man fights villain in general I think
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  that happens in all three yes and then this one Zen Deia is definitely there with nerd they're
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  equally taking down all in distress on her own at least from what I can remember so I think you
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  know that's that that's a real plus point and that's a series as well to you don't need to do that
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  no it's been seen yeah so that was that was really good too so thinking about the film as a whole
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  there is one issue that we had as we were discussing it is the role of Doctor Strange
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  he connects spider-man to the idea of the multiverse really doesn't he is through him and his
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  magic that this breakage happens and what's really I think slightly problematic in the film is
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  he makes it seem as though it's entirely spider-man's fault when it is a classic case of well
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  well I hope you're happy you did this where's he's the one who lost concentration where he
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  deflects the blame and I've that was a bit strange and I wonder what it's going to do for the next
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  Doctor Strange film if they're going to have any connection to that because he did seem
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  and this is a bit of you could argue that what they were doing is showing that he's in a point
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  of crisis in his life where he is making bad decisions okay because he has he's lost his job
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  he's been gone for five years maybe he feels guilty for killing that guy he didn't like
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  iron man which he sort of did argue it was his plan was his plan yeah yeah and this is this is sort of
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  spoilers again but it looks as if based on a trailer that's at the end of the spider-man film it looks
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  as if his love interest from the last film is getting married and not to him so I think that's
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  probably going to be okay so you could put it as he is making bad decisions but I think there's
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  very little self-awareness from him and no point does he go I should have probably explained
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  or maybe I should have taken the moment to sort of warn you what would happen here he is a doctor
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  there are preps before surgeries and he's meant to be a surgeon you would have thought he'd do
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  better yeah I mean we're referring to the actual spell or the casting of this spell scene where
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  all sorts of things come up and he's acting as if by the man's questions were not fair or
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  unnecessary when really there are the kind of questions he should have it's a bit like saying what
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  the possible side effects might be for an operation you need that conversation before you're in the
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  middle of the operation and that but it doesn't happen like that but I mean of course the answer is
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  I mean it needed to happen to enable them to do what they did with the story where they could
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  have all of these it's just an excuse to put them all together all these characters really
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  so I think one of the themes that come through the the whole of the the Tom Holland
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  version of spider-man is always this thing about unintended consequences because in his own first
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  film spider-man homecoming he tries to be a superhero in the kind of way that he sees the
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  Avengers being and it ends up back firing and blowing up a local corner shop and all sorts of
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  things so he's reigned in by the Tony Stark character because he's had unintended consequences he
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  wasn't old enough to take on the role he was trying to achieve all he was doing it for the wrong
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  reasons yes and I think that's quite an interesting theme that runs all the way through the spider-man
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  and the same thing happens in this film is that very much on a bigger scale he has what he wants
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  has unintended consequences i.e. the arrival of all these bad guys so that's a nice theme that's
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  run through the whole trilogy yes and I think that links back into the idea that this is an
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  origin trilogy because in that original story which was adapted for the Toby McGuire and Andrew
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  Garfield a fairly important part of the origin is that there is a part where spider-man can prevent
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  the man who then goes on to kill Uncle Ben from doing that he doesn't realize that's what he's
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  doing at the time letting this guy go who then goes to kill his uncle and that's when the lesson
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  of with great power comes great responsibility really sinks in so you could argue in a way that
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  that sort of loops back into this being an origin where in each film there is this lesson being
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  really drilled in and that by the end of it he's at sort of the more classics by the man status quo
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  and is fully set up as a character yes and the other theme that runs through of course is sacrifice
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  which comes into a lot of the Marvel films oddly it also came into last year's other big film which
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  is the James Bond no time to die it's the you sacrifice the thing you want most for the greater good
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  obviously it also comes into a lot of the rings and almost many a fantasy story what did you
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  think of the sacrifice that is demanded of spider-man in this film do you mean the one at the end yeah
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  I mean I don't think it was necessarily done for story reasons it's it's a difficult thing to
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  speculate on but it works very conveniently in that now he's disconnected from most of the Marvel
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  universe stuff so if they do fail to find a deal for the next time it's not necessarily as
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  larger problem as if he's meant to be always around in the Avengers or something it does allow a
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  reset button yes doesn't it well think about it as a story as a sort of a conclusion to his
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  character arc I think it's quite good because it then yeah means that he is choosing to take further
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  sacrifice and suffering but importantly despite that choosing to be a hero anyway which is part
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  of the lessons that are imparted on to him by the other two spider-man he meet who've had similar
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  similar things where they've had not necessarily knowing beforehand that they were going to make
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  a sacrifice but they've had something happen as a result of them and their actions and it's also
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  the Tony Stark endgame moment as well where he has his wife and his child and almost everything
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  to live for and that's what he has to give up they're very powerful it's very moving it's not
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  just might sort of prevail it's not that it's it's spider-man does thrive on having a bit of tragedy
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  it seems and it's quite a it's a fairly new one to see at least on film they have a very good
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  scene at the end where he goes to a coffee shop and MJ is there and Ned is there but neither of them
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  recognize him and there's something you know particularly tragic about that although it
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  strange that at least in films spider-man has become a sort of known for always having sad things
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  and funerals when really I think as a character he does have things every now and again that are
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  like that those tragedies they set him up but most of the time he's quite a a happy go lucky if a
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  bit down on his luck character so what do you think is the best spider-man film I actually don't
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  think it's any of the ones we've mentioned okay because prior to this film there was another
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  spider-man meets other spider-man film and that was there was an animated film called Into the
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  Spider-Verse oh yeah and I actually think that's probably my favorite spider-man film I think that
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  gave surely that gave the idea for this one oh yeah I mean I think it's probably something that
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  they had considered before but I think the success of that made this pretty much a certainty
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  and that in that case they didn't have a popularly known versions of spider-man like faces they
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  could bring back but I think what they did considering that there hadn't been something before that
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  apart from what people sort of know about spider-man was very very effective and I think that they
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  use the mechanism of different spider-man having different things have happened to them
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  in some ways more effective at least I think I liked I just particularly like it because they
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  have a version of spider-man who's basically the Toby McGuire one but they commit to things that
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  like his life really having gone down the drain which I enjoyed greatly oh yes he's a bit like the fat
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  Thor isn't he he's that kind of thing gone to seed I mean he's he's you know lost the the
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  joy for his work and for for life but clearly he's still really good at it but he's like his
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  relationship has failed and it's like he's broke all of these things whereas I kind of felt that
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  they could have done that a bit more with the Toby McGuire spider-man who's basically the same
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  but they weren't willing to commit to saying what had happened to him in quite the same way
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  because they thought well maybe we will do something with him and also they are a bit different
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  personality-wise I think that it's interesting to see all the performances together because I think
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  I mean I don't mean this to be cruel to the actors but I think Toby McGuire is the most believable
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  as like the nerdy Peter Parker I think that Andrew Garfield is far too handsome and cool looking
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  to be bullied for that but I think he is very good as spider-man and sort of the serious stuff
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  you know the tragedies and then I think Tom Holland is quite a he's a pretty good balance
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  between those I think he's he's pretty good at both he's less he's still I think he's a bit
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  more similar as when he's in the costume to the Toby McGuire one I think that Andrew Garfield
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  really pulled off the sort of snarky grippy nature whilst in whilst in the suit I'd say that Tom
• 28:52
  Holland is my favorite spider-man though I would just give I mean I think he's in the best films
• 28:57
  yes maybe that's it like there are lots of people who love the Sam Raimi which is the Toby McGuire
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  one's more well I have my favorite moment is in those films though and I can't remember it might
• 29:08
  be the second one I love the moment where he puts his Toby McGuire one yeah in the Toby McGuire
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  he puts his his on a downward trajectory everything's going wrong for him
• 29:18
  and it's summed up for when he puts his spider-man outfit in the washing machine and watch
• 29:22
  his all his washing going red it's such a clever image of you know those mistakes we all made
• 29:30
  but for a superhero so that's really and those films really is incredible how good they are
• 29:37
  considering that they were really uh reaching the wall in a lot of ways I mean they
• 29:44
  all the subsequent spider-man films have had a lot more superhero successful films to go on
• 29:51
  but yeah the Sam Raimi stuff does some really really good and innovative things
• 29:56
  thank you so in some if you were having to give it a kind of five star out of five stars review where
• 30:04
  would you place spider-man no way home oh well had a great time I would probably you know four or
• 30:13
  five yeah I think so too it was I thought it was a great really good entertaining film I'm not sure
• 30:20
  if it necessarily would be as good if you if you don't care about spider-man and you haven't seen
• 30:24
  those other spider-man films but because I had it did yeah I still think the the school trip one
• 30:30
  is just the funniest because of the the parallel stories running with the school trip doing one
• 30:35
  thing and spider-man doing another the scene in jail for example is brilliant in that so I think
• 30:41
  that's still my favorite as you know it we always have a section where we do wherein all the fantasy
• 30:48
  world is the best place for something and I want this time to do where is the best place to be
• 30:54
  spider-man because I remember talking some years ago with you about how one thread of the storyline
• 31:02
  for spider-man pun intended was to come to college in I think it was Oxford yeah well it wasn't
• 31:08
  that he'd been offered a place but yeah it's in the Andrew Garfield ones his girlfriend Gwen Stacey
• 31:14
  by Emma Stone I think it's is either Oxford or Cambridge she's been offered a spot and he's
• 31:20
  they're seriously considering both moving I think and he's sort of thinking oh can I can I fight
• 31:25
  crime in Oxford and yeah he wouldn't probably wouldn't get very far given that the skyscrapers
• 31:30
  of New York City enabled you to swing through majestically but you would end up circulating around
• 31:37
  the Radcliffe camera basically there's and the university church spot there's not many places
• 31:42
  together preventing bike thefts on the whole yeah so Oxford is not a great place to be spider-man
• 31:48
  so where would you think would be the best place to be spider-man well I think you need you need
• 31:54
  the the very tall buildings certainly and you need there to be a decent amount of crime to stop
• 32:00
  I would say that there are some of those some of the cities in the in the Star Wars prequels
• 32:05
  I've got that city planet Coruscant but then I think about that a bit more and I think
• 32:11
  he's not equipped to deal with a lot of the lot of the changes there I think so maybe maybe not
• 32:16
  that what's uh another where's you know it's crossing it's the DC but Gotham City is you know
• 32:23
  lots of crime and skyscrapers oh he's also doing pretty well there yeah I was thinking that maybe
• 32:29
  for going on holiday somewhere like um Athylian would be a good place for him to go oh yeah he could
• 32:35
  go through trees or Lothlorian or somewhere like that get him out in nature so he can just enjoy
• 32:42
  himself or even Tarzan's jungle you know staying more on earth yeah I think it's about time he
• 32:48
  gave spider-man a holiday because his last holiday ended up in disaster being attacked all the way
• 32:53
  across Europe so send him to yeah okay so we'll say you can go to Athylian or maybe what's the
• 33:00
  Lothlorian forest well that is called lorian yeah Athylian is the one I thought was a bit more
• 33:06
  crime there because of the sort of you know proximity to to Mordor yeah anyway so thank you very
• 33:12
  much Ed and for reviewing that for us and I'm sure looking ahead there are many more Marvel films
• 33:17
  to come so we'll have you back to talk about the next trash so thank you very much for listening
• 33:23
  and happy new year thanks for listening to myth makers podcast brought to you by the Oxford Center
• 33:32
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• 33:40
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• 33:48
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