Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / The Last Lap - The Mysterious Death of Peter Kreis
Transcript
- 0:00Breakfix's History of Motorsports series is brought to you in part
- 0:04by the International Motor Racing Research Center, as well as the
- 0:07Society of Automotive Historians, the Watkins Glen Area Chamber of
- 0:11Commerce, and the Argettsinger family.
- 0:16Suicide on the Track, the case of Peter Kreis by William Walker.
- 0:20A longtime fan of open wheel racing, William T.
- 0:23Walker Jr.
- 0:24was introduced to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the Indy 500
- 0:27by broadcasts of Sid Collins.
- 0:29He grew fascinated by the careers of his cousins Peter Kreis and
- 0:33Rex Mays, both Indy drivers.
- 0:35The possibility of drivers dying by suicide on track has long
- 0:38been acknowledged, sometimes alleged, but seldom proven.
- 0:42It remains a forbidden topic because drivers are unwilling to admit any
- 0:46weakness, much less depression.
- 0:48The case of Peter Kreiss, however, offers an opportunity to examine a case
- 0:51which resulted in two purposeful deaths at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
- 0:55Peter raced at Indy from 1925 to 1934, when he and his
- 0:59riding mechanic died in Turn 1.
- 1:00Indy drivers, track officials, and other experts could not identify any obvious
- 1:04cause for the accident, calling it the strangest death in all of racing history.
- 1:09After 50 years of research, William reached the conclusion
- 1:11that Peter took his own life.
- 1:13The results of his investigation were published in The Last Lap, The
- 1:16Mysterious Demise of Peter Kreis in the Indianapolis 500 by Octane Press in 2023.
- 1:22Please note that the following episode is based on relevance and
- 1:25contains depictions of suicide.
- 1:27If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a
- 1:30crisis, please reach out immediately to the Suicide Prevention Lifeline at
- 1:34802 7 3 talk 8 2 5 5 or text home to the crisis text line at 7 4 1 7 4 1.
- 1:41These services are free and confidential.
- 1:44The following episode is intended for mature audiences.
- 1:47Please note that listener discretion is advised.
- 1:49Mr.
- 1:50Walker is going to talk to us about Suicide on the Track,
- 1:53the case of Peter Christ.
- 1:55He also has a book that's come out, The Last Laugh and the Mysterious Demise
- 1:59of Peter Christ in the Annapolis 500.
- 2:01I'm here to talk about my cousin, who is Pete Criss.
- 2:06Pete raced from 1925 at Indy to 1934.
- 2:11Nine years.
- 2:13Pete was the son of a wealthy man, John Criss.
- 2:18who was a multi millionaire, he built railroads, and he had marble quarries on
- 2:24his land, and many stones from that marble quarry were used to build the buildings
- 2:33on the National Mall in Washington, D.
- 2:35C.
- 2:36And by the way, I should say, we were the poor side of the family.
- 2:39These people are extremely wealthy.
- 2:41They're still extremely wealthy.
- 2:44And my side of the family did not inherit any of that wealth, unfortunately.
- 2:49Like a lot of fathers, and especially like, if you know Joseph Kennedy,
- 2:54who fathered John and Robert and Teddy, he wanted to build a dynasty.
- 3:00And he pushed his three sons, John Jr.
- 3:04Pete, who is the race driver, and Harmon, and he pushed these kids very hard.
- 3:10He wanted them to be risk takers, he wanted them to be daring.
- 3:14To give you a sense of what Pete was like, they had the biggest
- 3:18house in Knoxville, still beautiful.
- 3:20His sister lives there, and by the way, his sister, who has now
- 3:24departed, helped me tremendously.
- 3:26Her name was Hazel.
- 3:28And she gave me all of his papers, would answer all my questions.
- 3:32Always had the best cars, Auburns, whatever it was, he had it.
- 3:37Very handsome fella, not terribly attracted to the women, but he was
- 3:43always making jokes, he always dressed.
- 3:47in a three piece suit, and he would come to the track in that
- 3:51three piece suit, and go into the shed and change into his overalls.
- 3:56Generally, he would leave his tie on.
- 3:58Pete began driving on the back roads of Knoxville.
- 4:02He learned how to drive using his father's 1920 Marmon, which he souped
- 4:10up and drove around the back roads.
- 4:12There was one race course in Knoxville, and he drove on it.
- 4:16One day, however, as he was just approaching twenty four, a friend
- 4:21asked to be driven to Knoxville from this rural area where they lived,
- 4:27and Pete looked at him and joked.
- 4:29Pete was a very gregarious kind of person and had great fun.
- 4:34And he said to this kid, I'll have you in Knoxville or in hell.
- 4:39in ten minutes.
- 4:40It was a very cold night.
- 4:43They hit some black ice.
- 4:45The Marmon flipped over.
- 4:47The boy was killed and Pete was knocked unconscious.
- 4:52He apparently had a traumatic brain injury.
- 4:56He began suffering from flashbacks and things of that sort.
- 5:03But he kept driving.
- 5:04And his father Knew his son was depressed and he knew only one way
- 5:09to go, and that was to keep charging.
- 5:13He and Pete took the train to Indiana and he bought his son a top of the
- 5:21line Duesenberg Roadster to buy that car, which was 10, 000 by the way.
- 5:27And the average salary, I think, was about 600 a year then.
- 5:32So you can imagine what kind of wealth they had.
- 5:35But he had to become a member of the Duesenberg team.
- 5:39Fred and Augie took him out to the track, tried him out, and they
- 5:43knew that my cousin had speed.
- 5:46This man could travel.
- 5:47Pete got off to a fast start.
- 5:50In his first race, which was at one of the board tracks in Culver City, California,
- 5:56he couldn't get the car started.
- 5:58When the flag dropped, he started dead last and finished second.
- 6:04Going through the field, this man knew how to achieve speed.
- 6:09He was eighth in his rookie year at Indy.
- 6:12The Duesenberg brothers and Peter DiPaolo, by the way, whom I talked with during the
- 6:18course of my research, tried to get him to slow down a bit because he was impetuous.
- 6:24So he did finish 8th at the Indy in 1925.
- 6:29Tommy Milton, a very famous driver, elected to take Pete to Monza to race
- 6:35against Formula One or Grand Prix cars.
- 6:38And Pete started off on the front row, and the second sweep around, you know the
- 6:46Parabolica curve, which is steeply banked.
- 6:48He came out of that curve in first place.
- 6:51and set fast lap.
- 6:53Now he thought, because of the difference in language, he
- 6:56thought he had set a track record.
- 6:59The third lap, transmission gave out, and he spun into a
- 7:04curve called the Portalesmo.
- 7:06It's claimed a lot of cars.
- 7:07It's still there.
- 7:08When you watch Monza, you will see it.
- 7:10When he set the track record, or set fast lap at Monza, he went downtown
- 7:15that night, and he was always trying to please his father, of course.
- 7:19He sent him a, a one line telegram.
- 7:22Broke track record and car.
- 7:25Love, Pete.
- 7:26And that's sort of the way he conducted himself, with self deprecating humor.
- 7:31He gave up his car, he sold his cars, and he would race at Indianapolis.
- 7:35And everybody loved to see him coming.
- 7:38He was just so admired by people.
- 7:40He had driven a couple of the front wheel drive Millers, and he liked them.
- 7:44He liked bored tracks.
- 7:46So he switched to Miller.
- 7:48And he had purchased a brand new Miller 91 for the 1926 race, a 91 cubic
- 7:55inch engine, a dual overhead cams, supercharged and front wheel drive.
- 8:02Miller.
- 8:02I don't know whether you know it, but it is a terrific, it is the epitome of
- 8:07racing in the twenties and thirties.
- 8:10He was expected to finish high in the 1926 race.
- 8:14Unfortunately, something happened to him, which happened to a lot
- 8:18of us a couple of years ago.
- 8:20He caught the flu.
- 8:21He was hospitalized, and Tommy Milton brought several
- 8:26drivers for him to interview.
- 8:29The one he chose was a man, a little known man from California named Frank Lockhart.
- 8:35Lockhart took his car and won the race his rookie year.
- 8:41And that event sort of really put the skids to Pete.
- 8:45He never was quite the same after that.
- 8:48Pete never finished another 500.
- 8:51He was running fifth in 1932 in one of those Studebaker junk formulas.
- 8:58Crashed into turn one at 475 miles.
- 9:02Now there was no doubt about the kind of professional driver Pete was.
- 9:08You see a picture here of Pete shaking hands with Henry Ford.
- 9:13This was taken in 1932.
- 9:15Ford was standing in turn one.
- 9:18In the infield, Pete came down and did a 360.
- 9:23A Danny Sullivan move.
- 9:25And Ford said, that guy can really drive, I want to meet him.
- 9:30They ushered Pete up and he met Henry Ford.
- 9:33So Henry Ford, who was a pretty good driver himself in the old
- 9:36days, Barney Oldfield days, realized that Pete could handle cars.
- 9:41And he was well known.
- 9:42for being extremely good at recovering from spins.
- 9:47Another uncle of mine, who's now deceased, he was very famous in
- 9:51Knoxville, and people would say, Peter, you're going to win it this year.
- 9:54He had a series of DNFs and crashes.
- 9:57Is this going to be the year?
- 9:59In 1934, Pete said to him, I'm either going to win it, or
- 10:03I'm coming home in a pine box.
- 10:06And my uncle swore that he was not kidding.
- 10:09The day of Pete's death, he saw an accident on the way to practice,
- 10:15in which two people were killed.
- 10:17He stopped the taxi that he was taking to the track, tried to save
- 10:21the lives of these people, and unfortunately, they both died.
- 10:26When he got to Indy, his old friends, very famous drivers, Fred Frame.
- 10:31People like that who were car owners wouldn't give him a car.
- 10:35They had heard about all of these accidents.
- 10:38He was very disgusted.
- 10:40Fred Frame finally assigned a car to him with only two days left to qualify.
- 10:47Pete qualified the car.
- 10:48It was a good car.
- 10:49It was a Miller 91.
- 10:50And the crash in 1934 resulted in his death and the death of a riding
- 10:58mechanic, which is one of the more perplexing problems of this story.
- 11:03When Pete crashed, it was a national story.
- 11:07Subtitle here says, Death of Pete Kriss, a mystery, drivers say.
- 11:12And then car wrecked while apparently under control.
- 11:17That caught my attention.
- 11:18Here's what happened.
- 11:20He was going at a relatively slow speed, about a hundred, and
- 11:24these cars could blast along on the straights up to about 160.
- 11:29He went into turn one and then got on top of the retaining wall and
- 11:36slid perfectly balanced for 75 yards.
- 11:40A state patrolman saw this and swore to this.
- 11:44He said, I could not believe that he was balanced right on top of this.
- 11:48The way he got up on top, look at this element that the track had
- 11:53installed in a few years earlier.
- 11:57This is a firm.
- 12:04And I think that this berm was put in, in hopes that it would push the cars
- 12:10away from the wall and save crashes, because as you know, turn one in India
- 12:15is the most dangerous curve in racing.
- 12:18At any rate, he rode up that berm.
- 12:21got on top of the retaining wall and sat there for that 75 yards.
- 12:27It was a spectacular crash.
- 12:30They spun off after about 75 yards, hit a tree that was in the
- 12:35backyard of one of those houses on the south end of the track.
- 12:39They hit, unfortunately, right at the cockpit.
- 12:43It killed both Pete and the riding mechanic.
- 12:47It nearly severed.
- 12:49Pete's legs from his body.
- 12:51The mechanic lived very briefly.
- 12:54Pete was killed instantly.
- 12:56In doing this, I became attracted to this story when I was a little kid.
- 13:01So I wanted to solve the mystery.
- 13:03A bunch of drivers and officials, winner of the Indy 500, concluded In one of the
- 13:11print stories, they said, This is the strangest death in all racing history.
- 13:16And I was determined to solve that mystery.
- 13:20I did some research on suicide.
- 13:22The article had given me some evidence to think that there
- 13:26might have been suicide involved.
- 13:28Freud, of course, started his research on the death wish.
- 13:34That's notorious.
- 13:35We know that it's spurious to some degree.
- 13:38But he said that people who go through a trauma, as Pete did when he killed the
- 13:43young man, have one of two reactions.
- 13:46The first reaction is people flee away from the danger.
- 13:49And you know that's notorious about what happened to World War I veterans.
- 13:54They would hear a car backfire and they would hit the ground,
- 13:57thinking that it was shell fire.
- 13:59The second reaction, however, and this is a rare reaction, is that people, if
- 14:05they've gone through this trauma, try to do it again to prove that they can conquer
- 14:11the fear that this trauma induced in them.
- 14:14So we know more about PTSD now, and I think Pete had a case of PTSD.
- 14:20A medical doctor at Harvard has done a lot of research into suicide, and he found
- 14:25that potential Victims of suicide engage in a series of near death accidents to
- 14:33practice subconsciously their final act.
- 14:36Their psychological pressure closes them off from other people.
- 14:41They lose friends.
- 14:43There is often a slight precipitating factor that may be
- 14:48very tiny, but it kicks them off.
- 14:51And then in some cases, and this is of course the key to proving suicide, there's
- 14:56an announcement in a note or gesture.
- 14:59Pete began to practice suicide.
- 15:01One of my uncles knew him well.
- 15:04Pete decided to buy an airplane.
- 15:07Eddie Rickenbacker had talked him into it.
- 15:09Peter DiPaolo told him it was a great idea.
- 15:12And Pete bought a Waco biplane.
- 15:16And one day he was taking off from an airport in Knoxville.
- 15:21And the engine cut out.
- 15:23They couldn't turn around.
- 15:25It flopped into the Tennessee River upside down.
- 15:28Pete got out very quickly.
- 15:30His co pilot was trapped.
- 15:33But Pete went back down into the water and freed this guy from the seatbelt.
- 15:39Lost part of a finger.
- 15:41Had bones.
- 15:42As you can see, damaged his eye, and as we go through this, you're going
- 15:47to see that more and more Pete began to have what we would call accidents,
- 15:51but they're not really accidents.
- 15:53Three personal wrecks in 1932.
- 15:57He saw five deaths at Indy in 1933.
- 16:02Plane crash was 32.
- 16:04Then, I found this interesting item.
- 16:08Dave Lewis, a driver who had been an Indian, raced several years, had
- 16:13retired and moved to California.
- 16:15Dave, one day, shot himself.
- 16:18And I found an article in the Indianapolis newspaper that said
- 16:23there was a lot of talk about suicide at the track the other day.
- 16:28He said, many people don't believe that Dave Lewis committed suicide.
- 16:33And then a driver is quoted as saying, Dave would not have done it with a pistol.
- 16:39If he had wanted to kill himself, he would have just lifted his hands when
- 16:44he was going into one of the turns at Indy and crashed through the wall.
- 16:49As much as we would like to believe that suicide is not something that's considered
- 16:54in racing circles, this proves that it was a pretty hot topic from time to time.
- 16:59I want to show you those two slides.
- 17:02This is the same man over nine years.
- 17:05Look at the change from this optimistic young man.
- 17:10In 1925 to this old man in 1934, that's hard to account for nine years.
- 17:19He looks like he's aged 30 years and I think this gives us a clue in 1935.
- 17:26At Daytona Beach, Malcolm Campbell was trying out the Bluebird, the AP
- 17:31reporter for Racing, got together a group of Indianapolis experts.
- 17:37Pop Myers was there, if you know him, he was vice president, Eddie Rickenbacker's
- 17:42brother was there, Bill Cummings.
- 17:44who had won the 1934 race, and they had drinks in a bar at the
- 17:49Clarendon Hotel right on the beach.
- 17:52They went through what I call an inquest, coroner's jury, into
- 17:57what happened to Pete Criss.
- 17:59And they noted these things, that it was practice, there were no
- 18:03other cars on the track, he was driving at a relatively slow speed.
- 18:08They had examined the car.
- 18:10There were no mechanical defects.
- 18:12There were no impediments on the track.
- 18:15No skid marks.
- 18:16He hadn't tried to brake.
- 18:18He hadn't tried to steer out of the thing.
- 18:20As the reporter said, it appears that his car was under control
- 18:25when he went up on the wall.
- 18:26And then this phrase appears, and Pete was apparently in good health and spirits.
- 18:34If you know anything, that's an invitation to draw a
- 18:38conclusion that this was suicide.
- 18:40But they didn't draw that conclusion.
- 18:42They said they finally decided they just couldn't reach a conclusion.
- 18:46They called it the strangest death in all racing history.
- 18:50Questions remain.
- 18:51If this is suicide, could he have taken a riding mechanic along with him?
- 18:56That's the biggest objection.
- 18:58The researchers that I've read point to the fact that when someone is
- 19:02on the verge of suicide, he's got a psychic vision that just closes down
- 19:08and he doesn't consider other things.
- 19:11There was, of course, a precipitating event.
- 19:14We know that suicide can be an impulsive act.
- 19:17He could, however, and this is my alternative, had been having a flashback.
- 19:22He mentioned these flashbacks.
- 19:24He talked about them, and he said, Every now and then I lose
- 19:27my nerve, but I get it back.
- 19:30It may have been that he was having those flashbacks.
- 19:32But the biggest thing, of course, is there was no note or gesture.
- 19:36I told you about Pete's sister, Hazel.
- 19:39Hazel Bill was quite old when I met her.
- 19:42A wonderful lady, just a wonderful person.
- 19:45Strong, energetic.
- 19:46All three of her brothers died and she took over the family, ran the outfit.
- 19:51Called me one day and said, Bill, I need you to come down,
- 19:54we need to have one of our talks.
- 19:56And when I got to her home, this big Italian villa, She said, Bill,
- 20:01I have something I haven't told you.
- 20:04And I could see she was getting old and she knew she was
- 20:07headed for the last round up.
- 20:09And I said, well, Hazel, what is it?
- 20:11And she said, Pete knew he was going to die that day.
- 20:16I said, well, Hazel, how do you know that?
- 20:19How do you know that he, he knew?
- 20:21She said, he had a premonition.
- 20:23We'd been talking for years, and she hadn't told me this story.
- 20:27I said, well, how do you know this?
- 20:29She said, Pete had a diamond ring.
- 20:31And I used to tease him about that diamond ring.
- 20:35Every time I would see him, I'd say, Pete, when are you going to give me that ring?
- 20:39I want that ring.
- 20:40He would tease her back, they were very close, and he'd say, No, no, Hazel, it's
- 20:44not time for you to get the diamond yet.
- 20:46Right before the practice run, right before Pete went out for his last
- 20:51run, he took the ring off, gave it to the pit captain, and said, If
- 20:56anything happens to me, make sure that my sister gets this ring.
- 21:04Now, Hazel saw this as a premonition that it was God's will that Pete was going to
- 21:11die, and he knew it, and he accepted it.
- 21:14I see it as a gesture announcing that he had decided to commit suicide.
- 21:20And that's the final, near the closing chapter of the book.
- 21:24That's what has convinced me, I don't know of any other way to interpret this.
- 21:29I don't believe in premonitions of this sort.
- 21:32His tombstone is in my family cemetery in Knoxville, Tennessee.
- 21:38Now, when Pete was killed in 1934, his father hired an Italian
- 21:44sculptor to make that tombstone.
- 21:47As you can see, it's probably 5 feet tall, 18 feet long.
- 21:53It's huge.
- 21:54They had to put a concrete foundation 6 feet deep underneath it to keep it level.
- 21:59And it has on it an exact replica of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
- 22:05Down to the bricks.
- 22:06Thousands of little carved bricks.
- 22:10The other remarkable thing is that car goes off right where Pete
- 22:16went off the track and was killed.
- 22:18You can see it in the lower right.
- 22:20When I saw that first, when I was four or five years old, In those days, we
- 22:25would go to the cemetery to clean the graves and that sort of thing, and I
- 22:29would always take a a little racing car and bump it around the track.
- 22:33And by the way, you can see that the motto on it is the last lap, and that's where
- 22:38the title of the book I was captivated.
- 22:42It was over for me.
- 22:43I had to know more about this guy.
- 22:46And I have spent off and on through my life learning about Pete, Chris,
- 22:52now the end of the Chris Dynasty.
- 22:55Pete's father was overjoyed because the tombstone was named the best tombstone
- 23:00of the year 1935 by the New York Times.
- 23:04I guess that's a runner up prize, but, uh, at any rate, you can see here the car.
- 23:09Pete's brother, John, died in a car crash that he caused.
- 23:14He was encouraging a man to go faster.
- 23:16One of the old throttles on the steering wheel, he jammed the
- 23:19throttle forward, crashed into an abutment, and it killed him.
- 23:23His brother Harmon had been gassed in World War I, and he
- 23:28died of alcoholism a year later.
- 23:31They all died within three years.
- 23:33Three self destructive deaths.
- 23:35None of the boys reached 40.
- 23:37It's just like the Kennedy story.
- 23:39Three sons dying of violence.
- 23:42His wife, John's wife, died of heart attack.
- 23:45And then, if you're writing a novel, you could put this in.
- 23:48The state condemned their beautiful farm and converted it.
- 23:54And I have said that that makes an ironic statement about
- 23:58what kind of family it was.
- 24:00I believe that the father was one of these hard driving patriarchs
- 24:04who drove his sons to death.
- 24:07And then John, shortly after World War II, died in a fall from the barn.
- 24:12The Chris line ended, no male heirs, and the dynasty dissolved into thin air.
- 24:19There are no Chrises left.
- 24:22The family continues to have some unbelievably either bad luck
- 24:27or self destructive tendencies.
- 24:30This is all that's left.
- 24:32There's the tombstone.
- 24:34That is the story of Pete Criss.
- 24:37And let me thank you for your attention, but let me also say, I am particularly
- 24:43eager for you to ask me any question that might offer another alternative
- 24:48to the story of Pete's demise.
- 24:51I had to reach the conclusion I reached, and it's not a happy conclusion, but if
- 24:56you have other ideas, you won't offend me.
- 24:59I've been questioned by CNN, New York Times, and you won't offend
- 25:02me by any questions you may have.
- 25:04So, thank you very much.
- 25:06Well, thank you.
- 25:07This
- 25:14Please, go ahead.
- 25:15Can you please read the line on the tombstone, on the bottom, the very bottom?
- 25:20This guy is weighing five, and it says the last lap was speedway.
- 25:29This is a portrait of me, but I really inflated his son's reputation.
- 25:35The
- 25:40last lap indicates, suggests, I think, that there was a victory involved.
- 25:46The black and white checkered flag suggests that someone misleading,
- 25:52and some of the people in Knoxville remarked on that when it came up.
- 25:56Did Pete's brothers have any children?
- 26:01The sad part about this family is there's a history of suicide in this family and
- 26:06to be honest with you I had promised Hazel that I would write this biography
- 26:12and I did not include the notion about the other people committing suicide.
- 26:17There was one son of John, the older brother.
- 26:21He wanted to be an opera singer, and they had the money to make that happen.
- 26:26And John was trying out to be an opera singer.
- 26:29One day he had been put down by a music director and was told he just did not
- 26:35have the voice to be an opera singer.
- 26:37He went home and chiseled out a part of the floor, a wooden floor, and he took
- 26:43a butcher knife, and jammed the handle of that butcher knife into the floor and
- 26:51then fell on the knife and killed himself.
- 26:54And this is the way this family has lived.
- 26:58Very sad business.
- 27:00And I could tell you, you would know them.
- 27:02This family owned all of the Ruby Tuesday restaurants in the United States.
- 27:08That's what they did with their money following the sad event.
- 27:12But it's a family that is filled with tragedy after tragedy and still going on.
- 27:18I wonder if today it would be possible to do a computer simulation of that
- 27:23situation and see the circumstances under which a car could leap up over that wall.
- 27:30It is an amazing situation.
- 27:33I wondered about that, and then I came across this picture of the berm.
- 27:38And I think if it were going fast enough, and a hundred would certainly
- 27:42be fast enough, that it would go up that berm, get a bump off that berm,
- 27:46and then be propelled along the wall.
- 27:49I found this in a book by the official track historian, and it
- 27:54just said these berms were intended to direct cars back onto the track.
- 27:59If they were headed into the turn wrong, they tended to get cars
- 28:04airborne, and they were done away with two or three years after that.
- 28:07I wish I knew more.
- 28:09If you've ever tried to research things at Indianapolis, it's difficult.
- 28:14You know, you need to go through Really do a deep dive into
- 28:19archival stuff to find that out.
- 28:21But I think it was that berm.
- 28:23And there were berms at each of the corners.
- 28:25What was his relationship with this riding mechanic?
- 28:28Because he was killed, right, in a wreck.
- 28:31I mean, it seems like he tried to save people.
- 28:33He would do that and take the life of somebody and stuff.
- 28:35You know, that's the one, to me.
- 28:38That's the one flaw in my argument.
- 28:42Could he really have decided to do himself in at a time that he
- 28:47had another person in the car?
- 28:49I must admit, I gave in to psychological theorizing.
- 28:54And what I said was that it might have reminded him of the young man he had
- 29:01in his car when he had the accident.
- 29:03In Knoxville, that he had a passenger in the right front seat, and that's the
- 29:08only thing I have, and I, and I must say, I thought long and hard, and if
- 29:13you read the book, you will see my sort of agonizing over this interpretation,
- 29:18but the diamond ring story.
- 29:20is such powerful evidence that I have to believe that that's what he did.
- 29:27And what about his brother and his father?
- 29:29Was, was that a suicide too, or?
- 29:32Uh, no, I don't think he did.
- 29:34He was, uh, this man, Never gave up.
- 29:38Never gave up.
- 29:40He was the son of a Civil War hero.
- 29:43They did foolish things to test their luck.
- 29:46Foolish, foolish things.
- 29:48And he taught his sons to do foolish things.
- 29:51So it was a difficult thing.
- 29:53I see we're reaching the end and I've enjoyed this.
- 29:57Can I tell you one more story?
- 29:58This combines a lot of the elements of this weekend for me.
- 30:03Some years ago I had written part of this book, and I've written this
- 30:07book a hundred times, different ways.
- 30:10Uh, I decided that the quickest way to get the story out would be to get
- 30:15Paul Newman to do a movie about it.
- 30:19I thought about how to do that.
- 30:21And I knew a man that probably many of you have met, Reeves Calloway.
- 30:27Reeves set up his cars, Paul Newman's cars.
- 30:30And I gave Reeves a call, very welcoming sort of fellow, really nice guy.
- 30:36And I said, I need 15 minutes of your time to tell you a story.
- 30:40And he said, sure, come on up.
- 30:42And my wife and I drove up to Connecticut, and I had a picture
- 30:46book then, and I gave him this, this whole thing that you've just seen.
- 30:50And he said, that's a very interesting story.
- 30:53How do I fit in?
- 30:54And I said, I want you to give this to Paul Newman and see
- 30:58if he'll do a movie of it.
- 30:59And he said, Paul will love this story.
- 31:02And he took the books and took them to Paul Newman.
- 31:06And Paul decided he could not do it because he was too old to play the lead.
- 31:11And so now I have a very nice letter from Paul Newman on my wall.
- 31:16And that's the end of my near miss, let's say.
- 31:20Thank you very much.
- 31:25very much.
- 31:28We can all help prevent suicide.
- 31:29The 988 Lifeline provides 24 7 free and confidential support for
- 31:34people in distress, prevention, and crisis resources for you or your
- 31:37loved ones, and best practices for professionals in the United States.
- 31:40If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a
- 31:43crisis, please reach out immediately to the Suicide Prevention Lifeline
- 31:46at 800 273 TALK, 8255, or text HOME to the Crisis Text Line at 741741.
- 31:54These services are free and confidential.
- 31:57This episode is brought to you in part by the International
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- 32:01Its charter is to collect, share, and preserve the history
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