Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Vagabon: Fresh Find

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Vagabon: Fresh Find · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

0:08
Speaker 1: Pushkin like her, Moniker suggests Leticia Tamco, who records under
0:16
Speaker 1: the name Vagabond, is trying to find a musical place
0:19
Speaker 1: to call her own. When Vagabond was thirteen, she and
0:22
Speaker 1: her family moved from Cameroon in West Africa to Harlem.
0:26
Speaker 1: She learned English in part by watching reruns of The
0:28
Speaker 1: Fresh Prince of bel Air and identified with the outsider
0:32
Speaker 1: sentiment heard and the emo and pop punk on the
0:34
Speaker 1: radio and TV in their early two thousands. Like many
0:38
Speaker 1: children of immigrants, Vagabond was encouraged by her parents to
0:41
Speaker 1: become something practical, like an engineer, but by seventeen she
0:46
Speaker 1: was writing songs and teaching herself to play guitar, and
0:49
Speaker 1: would sneak out at night to play shows at DIY
0:51
Speaker 1: punk spaces in Brooklyn, and only a few years later
0:54
Speaker 1: was recording and putting out songs. She's been completely immersed
0:58
Speaker 1: in music ever since. Her newest release, the self titled Vagabond,
1:03
Speaker 1: has been praised by critics at The New Yorker and Pitchfork.
1:06
Speaker 1: She's also toured with Courtney Barnett, Angel Olsen, and Brittany Howard.
1:11
Speaker 1: I did this interview recently in La with My Right
1:13
Speaker 1: hand producer Leah Rose, who's been working on Broken Records
1:16
Speaker 1: since the beginning of the year. She's a DJ music
1:18
Speaker 1: journalist who spent almost a decade as an editor at
1:21
Speaker 1: Double Xcel. When Lee and I sat down with Vagabond
1:24
Speaker 1: in La she was in the throes of writing songs
1:26
Speaker 1: for her third album and talked to us about some
1:28
Speaker 1: of the writer's blocks she was experiencing. Plus, she talked
1:31
Speaker 1: about her early experiences with music and Cameroon and why
1:34
Speaker 1: she sometimes wants to give it all up to write
1:36
Speaker 1: code instead. This is Broken Record liner notes for the
1:43
Speaker 1: digital Age. I'm justin Richmondon. Just a quick note here.
1:52
Speaker 1: You can listen to all of the music mentioned in
1:54
Speaker 1: this episode on our playlist, which you can find a
1:56
Speaker 1: link to in the show notes for licensing reasons, each
2:00
Speaker 1: time a song it's referenced in this episode, you'll hear
2:03
Speaker 1: this sound effect. All right, enjoyed the episode. Here's Leah
2:09
Speaker 1: Rose and myself in conversation with Vagabond. What type of
2:13
Speaker 1: music do you remember playing in your house when you
2:15
Speaker 1: were growing up. We played a lot of Michael Jackson.
2:19
Speaker 1: My parents were obsessed with Michael Jackson, and so was
2:23
Speaker 1: everyone you know where we lived, which was in Yellow
2:26
Speaker 1: and Day at the time, like everyone all over the
2:30
Speaker 1: world was obsessed with Michael Jackson, so we listened to
2:32
Speaker 1: a lot of him, and I would say that that's
2:34
Speaker 1: the most like contemporary like Western music that we listened to.
2:41
Speaker 1: We did listen to a lot of more like traditional
2:47
Speaker 1: West African music. Mani Diebungo was a huge one, like
2:53
Speaker 1: he's so beloved in our in our like all over
2:58
Speaker 1: but really like he's a star in our country. We
3:00
Speaker 1: listened to a lot of that. But most of the
3:02
Speaker 1: music that I listened to is like gospel music. My
3:05
Speaker 1: grandmother's a choir director, so a lot of the my like,
3:11
Speaker 1: my relationship to music was like at church, and so
3:15
Speaker 1: we'd listen to a lot of that and a lot
3:16
Speaker 1: of like passed down like traditional folk stuff that my
3:21
Speaker 1: grandmother would sing around. And then what was the first
3:24
Speaker 1: time that you really remember connecting to music. I don't
3:30
Speaker 1: really know how to tell kids ages, so I don't
3:32
Speaker 1: even know how old I was. But there there's this
3:35
Speaker 1: like photo of me that exists in my parents' house.
3:37
Speaker 1: That's me in the middle of like a group of
3:42
Speaker 1: maybe like fifteen adult women that were all my mom's
3:45
Speaker 1: friends and they would get together every Sunday. They would say,
3:48
Speaker 1: they would wear the same like traditional like African dresses
3:54
Speaker 1: and they would just sing and play music and I
3:58
Speaker 1: would get in this circle. So this photo is me
4:00
Speaker 1: getting in the circle and just like taking my go
4:03
Speaker 1: at it. I mean the photo helped me. Remember. I
4:05
Speaker 1: don't actually like remember, but I was so young that
4:09
Speaker 1: I think that's the first time that I really had
4:11
Speaker 1: a connection with music. Was it a church thing or
4:14
Speaker 1: what was the group about it? It It was like, you
4:16
Speaker 1: know in French you call it like a reunion, um,
4:20
Speaker 1: but I don't really know. It was almost like the
4:23
Speaker 1: only thing I could equit it to is like sorority,
4:25
Speaker 1: but they are all They were all like women with kids,
4:28
Speaker 1: you know, so it was more of like a like
4:31
Speaker 1: a community thing. And maybe they all went to church.
4:34
Speaker 1: I have no idea. How did all the kids come
4:36
Speaker 1: together too with that? No, no, it was only the parents, Yeah,
4:39
Speaker 1: kids at home. But since my mom was hosting, I
4:42
Speaker 1: was I was like able to like peek into into
4:46
Speaker 1: their world. And you were singing and dancing. Yeah, yeah,
4:49
Speaker 1: which is wild. So how do you think about that now?
4:52
Speaker 1: Seeing that photo? Are you like, I'm destined to be performing. Yeah.
4:57
Speaker 1: I mean my mom brought it up to me and
4:59
Speaker 1: was like, you know because she she, like everyone was
5:03
Speaker 1: a skeptic, including myself, Like what like, I like, what
5:06
Speaker 1: is like that's not a thing? Um? So yeah, like
5:11
Speaker 1: what does that mean? Even though when I think about it,
5:14
Speaker 1: that's that's what they were doing. They just weren't calling
5:16
Speaker 1: it that. Like there was harmonies going on, there were
5:19
Speaker 1: there were like drums going on, but they never called
5:22
Speaker 1: it playing music. They never called it like we are musicians.
5:26
Speaker 1: They were just like doing you know, like harmonizing is
5:31
Speaker 1: not something that everybody's doing in their household, you know,
5:34
Speaker 1: but no one really saw it as that. So I
5:37
Speaker 1: think my mom kind of connected the dots in the
5:40
Speaker 1: last like year, Like I think this has been something
5:43
Speaker 1: you've been interested in a long time. Is anybody else
5:46
Speaker 1: in your family music all at all? Not that I
5:48
Speaker 1: know of, but they must be like was your dad
5:53
Speaker 1: doing like was your dad singing and stuff around the house?
5:56
Speaker 1: Also no, my but my dad has bragged about like
6:00
Speaker 1: singing on some jazz albums that coincidentally no one knows
6:04
Speaker 1: the name too. So I don't know. Yeah, I don't
6:09
Speaker 1: know if it actually happened or if he was like
6:12
Speaker 1: I used to dabble. I don't know, but my dad
6:14
Speaker 1: was a dancer when he was younger. Um, but they
6:18
Speaker 1: don't really like they rarely talk about that, you know,
6:22
Speaker 1: they rarely bring that up as like anything artistic. So
6:25
Speaker 1: to me, I have to kind of dig really hard
6:27
Speaker 1: in my memory to kind of to like to see
6:31
Speaker 1: the threads of music because it's not a thing that
6:33
Speaker 1: they ever really took on as a as an identity. Yes,
6:37
Speaker 1: are they musical people now or not so much? No,
6:41
Speaker 1: they like music, but not not really. Like my mom
6:45
Speaker 1: thinks that I make country music. So that's kind of
6:47
Speaker 1: like like like that's that's that's where we're at, Like
6:53
Speaker 1: why country because I play guitar? Oh, that's it. That's
6:56
Speaker 1: just she's like guitar country Okay, So you know, and
7:01
Speaker 1: that's kind of cool for me that they have no
7:03
Speaker 1: idea and they don't you know, they don't like go
7:06
Speaker 1: to shows on their own or any or buy albums
7:09
Speaker 1: or anything. How did it become the thing for you then?
7:12
Speaker 1: I mean I've always been I've always been pretty obsessed
7:16
Speaker 1: with it. I used to be like eleven, twelve years old.
7:19
Speaker 1: I used to be online like looking up like studios
7:23
Speaker 1: and calling people like and my mom was like, you
7:25
Speaker 1: need to stop calling strangers, but I would like call studios.
7:29
Speaker 1: I would call whoever's phone number I can find. That
7:32
Speaker 1: was like like attached to a music thing and be like,
7:36
Speaker 1: I want to play music, how do I submit a demo?
7:39
Speaker 1: Like just being weird. So I've just kind of been
7:43
Speaker 1: like always interested, but no one around me had accessor
7:48
Speaker 1: or like the knowledge to guide me in any direction
7:52
Speaker 1: or to like even know what to tell me. You know,
7:55
Speaker 1: did you ever meet like a musical mentor at any point,
7:58
Speaker 1: or someone who you knew was a musician and just
8:00
Speaker 1: sort of like just got as much knowledge as you
8:02
Speaker 1: could out of that person. No, I've I literally did
8:06
Speaker 1: not have anyone that I can talk to about this
8:11
Speaker 1: stuff until I started doing it. Like there was no
8:14
Speaker 1: one around me. You know, I'm a kid, so like
8:17
Speaker 1: everywhere I'm around there is everywhere my parents want me
8:19
Speaker 1: to be around, And so I wasn't I wasn't really
8:24
Speaker 1: around anyone who played music or who listened to music
8:28
Speaker 1: in a way. Just this was like so not a
8:31
Speaker 1: part of my life. What was your exposure to live
8:35
Speaker 1: music when you were a kid? Um? I mean apart
8:38
Speaker 1: from church. There there was nothing. It was church and
8:42
Speaker 1: that was it. I used to love going to church.
8:47
Speaker 1: When when we moved to the US, like my mom
8:50
Speaker 1: started taking us to a church in Harlem Um called
8:53
Speaker 1: Abyssinian Church, and I used to I mean, that is
8:56
Speaker 1: my favorite place to see a show to this day.
8:59
Speaker 1: Like that choir made me feel like music is the
9:06
Speaker 1: single greatest thing in the world. And I would go
9:11
Speaker 1: to church like really like religiously no point intended um
9:15
Speaker 1: to see that choir and to see to see them,
9:18
Speaker 1: and that church is so important in my life. Like
9:23
Speaker 1: that's where I like found my scholarship to go to
9:26
Speaker 1: engineering school. That's where like that church was kind of
9:29
Speaker 1: like I was. I was a very much like a
9:32
Speaker 1: viewer of the church. Like I wasn't like a part
9:36
Speaker 1: of it in any way. I wasn't. I just like
9:38
Speaker 1: went and I sat in the back and I just
9:39
Speaker 1: like listened and um, So that is my relationship to
9:44
Speaker 1: live music. And until I hadn't seen a live show
9:47
Speaker 1: other than going to church and seeing choirs until I
9:50
Speaker 1: played a live show. So and then when you moved
9:54
Speaker 1: to the US and you went to that church, how
9:56
Speaker 1: is the service different than the services you were used to.
9:59
Speaker 1: It wasn't that different. Actually, you know, it was a
10:02
Speaker 1: Abyssinian's a Baptist church, so it's you know, mostly black people,
10:08
Speaker 1: and it's like the music is so like alive and
10:13
Speaker 1: it's so rich, and it's so I went to Catholic
10:17
Speaker 1: school for high school, so like I know what Catholic,
10:20
Speaker 1: I know what Mass is like, and I know what
10:22
Speaker 1: like a Baptist church is like. And I know what
10:25
Speaker 1: a church in Cameroon is like. And I would say
10:28
Speaker 1: that the church I went to in Cameroon is more
10:33
Speaker 1: similar to a Baptist church than it is to a
10:34
Speaker 1: Catholic church. You know, you get up, you like are interacting,
10:38
Speaker 1: You're like letting it take you. Well, I's curious because
10:42
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you know, if you started because
10:46
Speaker 1: you got a guitar, you're sort of get interested in music,
10:48
Speaker 1: playing music and you got a guitar. Well, I guess
10:50
Speaker 1: not till seventeen, but I mean we're writing songs in
10:53
Speaker 1: French early on, or I was writing already in English
10:56
Speaker 1: because I was listening to music in English. So I
11:00
Speaker 1: was listening to like, um, whatever was on the radio
11:04
Speaker 1: at that time. Um. When I first started kind of
11:08
Speaker 1: like wanting to write music. It was like pop punk
11:12
Speaker 1: on the radio and like like alternative like Levine, not
11:17
Speaker 1: even Avril Levine, um Blink one eighty two, but but
11:22
Speaker 1: even like like less of the stuff that has even
11:25
Speaker 1: held up no shade to these bands, but like like
11:28
Speaker 1: may Day Parade, like yeah, that sounds very like Warped
11:36
Speaker 1: Tour kind of bands. I was obsessed and I was
11:38
Speaker 1: like so um, I was like really into All Time
11:42
Speaker 1: Low and like Forever the Sickest Kids. I don't know,
11:49
Speaker 1: but I was very into. I was very into those bands.
11:55
Speaker 1: Um do you remember? Can you put yourself back into
11:58
Speaker 1: that mindset? What was it about that particular kind of
12:01
Speaker 1: music that you loved? It was the screaming, like it
12:04
Speaker 1: was the It was like, you know, you're like a
12:06
Speaker 1: teenager and you're angry, and no one had told me
12:09
Speaker 1: about like Rage against the Machine. Ione told me that
12:12
Speaker 1: there was like cool cool shit out there like mentor Yeah,
12:18
Speaker 1: I know, no one told me this stuff was happening.
12:21
Speaker 1: So I was listening to the to the stuff that
12:23
Speaker 1: was closest to that, but on the radio, because that's
12:26
Speaker 1: what I had access to. Like when you don't know
12:28
Speaker 1: anyone who's going to tell you about the like the
12:30
Speaker 1: record store or like um or rage or system of
12:34
Speaker 1: a Down or whatever. Like before anyone could tell me
12:38
Speaker 1: about that, Like there was All Time Alow on the radio,
12:41
Speaker 1: there was Avril Levine on the There's Fiefie Dobson who
12:44
Speaker 1: kind of changed my life. Who's that? Who was? Like
12:48
Speaker 1: she was like the black woman who was on MTV
12:51
Speaker 1: like like playing guitar and like singing that kind of music.
12:54
Speaker 1: And there was really no I was really not seeing
12:57
Speaker 1: any black girls or any black women doing that kind
13:01
Speaker 1: of music like on TRL or on MTV or and
13:05
Speaker 1: she she was that and so like that's kind of
13:08
Speaker 1: what I that was like the first time that I
13:11
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, music is so cool. I
13:13
Speaker 1: want to play guitar. So did you start dressing differently
13:15
Speaker 1: at that point? Um? Yeah, I mean I definitely had
13:19
Speaker 1: like the swoop over bangs and like the dark eye makeup. Yeah,
13:25
Speaker 1: like you know I did that for sure. It's fine.
13:30
Speaker 1: I survived. I had I had a phase. Man, it's
13:39
Speaker 1: so funny. Yeah, when was the first time you actually
13:42
Speaker 1: went to a live show? Uh? The first time I
13:46
Speaker 1: went to a live show, I guess technically my first
13:48
Speaker 1: one was the first show that I played, which was
13:52
Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen at the Silent Barn in Brooklyn, New York.
13:57
Speaker 1: I knew that the Silent Barn was a place that
13:59
Speaker 1: had like like community built in and that was the
14:02
Speaker 1: place that I can start learning how to play. And
14:04
Speaker 1: so I was like looking at their calendar and I
14:07
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, Like, I wonder if I can hit
14:09
Speaker 1: up the bands instead of hitting up Silent Barn because
14:11
Speaker 1: they don't know who I am, Like, I'm not, I'm
14:14
Speaker 1: not like anything or anyone. So I'm going to hit
14:17
Speaker 1: up the bands and send them my song. So that's
14:19
Speaker 1: what I did. I hit up the the band out
14:23
Speaker 1: of Massachusetts and I said, Hey, I just put out
14:26
Speaker 1: this song. Can I open the show? And they were
14:28
Speaker 1: like yeah, whatever, And had you been to the venue before? No? No, no,
14:34
Speaker 1: how terrified? How terrified? I'm scared? Just scaring that story. Yeah.
14:38
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I'm more afraid now of things
14:40
Speaker 1: than I was back then. I was just like, what
14:42
Speaker 1: do I You know, I had written maybe like a
14:45
Speaker 1: handful of songs by then, and I knew that I
14:48
Speaker 1: was practicing them. So I was just going to do
14:50
Speaker 1: what I did to practice. I don't know I just
14:54
Speaker 1: did it. Did it feel different? Because I mean, I
14:57
Speaker 1: imagine at home, you weren't practicing with like a microphone, right,
15:01
Speaker 1: that must have felt really different when you get up. Yeah,
15:04
Speaker 1: I mean it's it was very different. It was very jarring. Um,
15:10
Speaker 1: but I mostly wanted to be good enough that the
15:16
Speaker 1: other musicians thought that I was good enough. Like that's
15:18
Speaker 1: who want to impress them? Yeah, that's like kind of
15:21
Speaker 1: what the the objective was. Like, I wasn't even thinking
15:24
Speaker 1: that other people would be listening. I'm just like, but
15:27
Speaker 1: if the other people think that I am doing something
15:31
Speaker 1: that like maybe i'm doing like maybe you'll fit in
15:33
Speaker 1: or you're one of them, yeah, or like or like
15:36
Speaker 1: or I'm on the right path or like this makes
15:39
Speaker 1: sense that I'm here. Like maybe if if no one
15:41
Speaker 1: could tell that I've never done this before, I think
15:44
Speaker 1: I'll be Okay. You know, did you feel powerful? I did?
15:48
Speaker 1: I did. Yeah, it's weird. It's it was a it
15:51
Speaker 1: was a weird show. But one thing I have never
15:56
Speaker 1: been was afraid. And that includes being afraid of embarrassing myself,
16:02
Speaker 1: Like that includes being afraid of like being bad or
16:06
Speaker 1: because at that point I had I had like I
16:10
Speaker 1: had given up a lot to even be there, So
16:12
Speaker 1: I was like, who in the same I wanted to
16:15
Speaker 1: impress these people, but I also didn't care because I
16:18
Speaker 1: had to way different life than everybody else. So I
16:22
Speaker 1: was just very like I meet some validation that like
16:26
Speaker 1: I could do this, but I also am going to
16:30
Speaker 1: do it regardless, if that makes sense. Yeah, so have
16:33
Speaker 1: you given up maybe a path in life that you
16:37
Speaker 1: thought you were going to take At that point, you
16:38
Speaker 1: had already made up your mind that this is what
16:41
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. Yeah, I had made up my mind
16:43
Speaker 1: to myself. I hadn't to hold my parents that had
16:46
Speaker 1: I hadn't told anybody else in my life that because
16:49
Speaker 1: I understood that it would sound crazy. Like, you know,
16:53
Speaker 1: I'm an engineering student. That is clearly a path that
16:57
Speaker 1: is pretty much guaranteed. Like you know, they say that
17:01
Speaker 1: you don't know if you get out of school and
17:03
Speaker 1: you have a job. But like in technology and like engineering,
17:06
Speaker 1: you have a job, like you can you can go
17:09
Speaker 1: get a job that pays you like seventy thousand dollars
17:13
Speaker 1: when you're twenty two, and you could be all right,
17:16
Speaker 1: you're very stable. It's very stable, and it sounds really good. Yes,
17:20
Speaker 1: it's very impressive. Yeah, and your parents want to tell
17:22
Speaker 1: everybody that you can what you're doing. Yeah, especially I
17:24
Speaker 1: mean especially you know parents who came here and work
17:27
Speaker 1: to give you an education exactly right, exactly. So I
17:32
Speaker 1: was like already knew that I would be doing that,
17:37
Speaker 1: but I was like, let me make sure I have
17:39
Speaker 1: something to show before I blow my whole life. And
17:42
Speaker 1: then who were you collaborating with back then? Was there
17:45
Speaker 1: anyone who you would sort of like play stuff for
17:48
Speaker 1: get feedback from? Yeah, I had very early on before
17:52
Speaker 1: Infinite World, I had a friend who was also an
17:55
Speaker 1: engineering student, and he had like an emo emo band,
18:01
Speaker 1: and he was the only one that was around me
18:04
Speaker 1: that like played guitar and like played loudly and like
18:06
Speaker 1: screamed and stuff, and so I would I would play
18:10
Speaker 1: him early on my songs and in the very very
18:14
Speaker 1: early iterations, like that first show, he played it with
18:16
Speaker 1: me um, and I wouldn't really get feedback. I wasn't
18:23
Speaker 1: really interested in because I didn't really even know. I
18:27
Speaker 1: didn't want. I've been really adamant about people shaping me
18:32
Speaker 1: and like into early of a stage. There were so
18:35
Speaker 1: many things that I that that I knew that I
18:38
Speaker 1: would become better at that, like only I have insight
18:42
Speaker 1: on the vision. Like so, so there was like a
18:46
Speaker 1: lot if the notes were based on like my current self.
18:49
Speaker 1: I didn't really I knew that I was so new
18:51
Speaker 1: to it that there was bound to be progressed. So
18:55
Speaker 1: and what songs were you playing then? Um? I was
18:57
Speaker 1: playing just a lot of songs ended up on my
19:00
Speaker 1: first album. A lot of the songs from Infinite Worlds
19:03
Speaker 1: are from like twenty fourteen. Wow, um, they're some of
19:07
Speaker 1: the Some of them are the first songs that I've written,
19:10
Speaker 1: songs like Cold Department, Um, Sharks aka them the Embers,
19:15
Speaker 1: And then there are a few that that, um we're
19:17
Speaker 1: on the EP before Infinite Worlds that I was playing too.
19:21
Speaker 1: Would you mind playing Sharks? Would you mind playing the Embers? Oh? Sure, Yeah,
19:29
Speaker 1: I was waiting for that next. Sorry, sorry I haven't
19:35
Speaker 1: I haven't practiced them in a long time. It sounds
19:37
Speaker 1: so good. But that's that's that. We'll be back with
19:41
Speaker 1: our conversation with Vagabond. After a quick break, we're back
19:49
Speaker 1: with more from Vagabond. Just incredible. That's so early on
19:52
Speaker 1: that you know, that's so early on you had a vision. Yeah,
19:56
Speaker 1: and that you were so confident. Yeah, yeah, I mean
19:59
Speaker 1: it seems like you're still sort of have that same philosophy.
20:03
Speaker 1: With the new album, you did pretty much everything completely
20:07
Speaker 1: on your own, made almost every single instrument, produced every song.
20:11
Speaker 1: Now it seems like that was very intentional. Yeah. I
20:14
Speaker 1: would say everything that I do is intentional, maybe even
20:17
Speaker 1: sometimes to a fault. Like I just want to be
20:22
Speaker 1: really good, and I want to be respected and and
20:27
Speaker 1: I have this like urge to earn it, you know
20:30
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like like I don't want to just
20:32
Speaker 1: like put my name on something. I want to like
20:35
Speaker 1: have it be like real. I want to know that
20:38
Speaker 1: I could produce a record. But at the end of
20:41
Speaker 1: the day, like I'm really glad that I did that.
20:43
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that I know how to do that,
20:45
Speaker 1: and that whatever whatever this album means now or later,
20:52
Speaker 1: like I know that it's important for like my trajectory
20:56
Speaker 1: as as a musician. Would you ever consider working with
20:59
Speaker 1: a producer? Do you do you like do you like
21:01
Speaker 1: being your own producer and kind of the pressure that
21:03
Speaker 1: comes with that also, I mean I like it, but
21:07
Speaker 1: I don't know if I could do this shit again.
21:09
Speaker 1: Like I I think that you know, this last self
21:14
Speaker 1: titled record is my second album, and it's not just
21:17
Speaker 1: like my second album on a label. It's not just
21:19
Speaker 1: like my second album as Vagabond. It's my second album period.
21:24
Speaker 1: Like it's the second body of work I've made, and
21:27
Speaker 1: so it's still really early on for me, and I
21:30
Speaker 1: still want it to be like, like to know what
21:32
Speaker 1: I was doing, even if I have access to hire anybody, like,
21:37
Speaker 1: I want to have that knowledge and then I can
21:42
Speaker 1: kind of like open it up a little bit. So
21:44
Speaker 1: now I feel like I'm in a stage where I
21:46
Speaker 1: can like go as far as like co producing. How
21:48
Speaker 1: do you think about the second one? I mean, it's
21:50
Speaker 1: it's like your newest record, but it's been it's been
21:52
Speaker 1: a couple of years and you're writing the new one now,
21:54
Speaker 1: so it kind of it's behind you in a way. Yeah,
21:57
Speaker 1: it's a little bit more people discovering it still, right, Yeah,
22:00
Speaker 1: I think I'm like I honestly, I go in and
22:04
Speaker 1: out if I'm like going to be all the way
22:06
Speaker 1: honest sometimes I'm like I used to when it first
22:09
Speaker 1: came out, I was like I killed that shit. That
22:11
Speaker 1: was so good, And now I'm kind of like did
22:16
Speaker 1: I Like, I don't know, thank you, it is really good.
22:20
Speaker 1: I just I think it's weird. I think I'm still
22:25
Speaker 1: kind of coming to terms with doing something that was
22:27
Speaker 1: that different from from what I was doing before. And
22:32
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it's I think it's part of
22:37
Speaker 1: a larger story and it's kind of like dot dot dot,
22:40
Speaker 1: like it's part of a larger thing which will be
22:43
Speaker 1: my career, um, but like on its own. So I'm
22:47
Speaker 1: pretty confused about it. You know, do you feel like
22:50
Speaker 1: you want to go back to the kind of more
22:52
Speaker 1: the sounds of the first one or um continue sort
22:55
Speaker 1: of is there going to be like a when the
22:57
Speaker 1: third one comes it will be like, oh wow, there
22:59
Speaker 1: is a sort of yea. Honestly, I feel like the
23:04
Speaker 1: third one is where I need to like pick a
23:06
Speaker 1: lane essentially, which may not be true, but I'm just
23:09
Speaker 1: gonna be real, like this is what's going on in
23:11
Speaker 1: my head about like, Okay, I made an indie rock record,
23:14
Speaker 1: and I made a record that's not that, and now
23:17
Speaker 1: I don't really know. I'm now trying not to think
23:21
Speaker 1: about what kind of a record I'm making. I'm just
23:23
Speaker 1: I just want to write songs and I just want
23:26
Speaker 1: to like put those songs on an album, So I'm
23:30
Speaker 1: just kind of like, I'm a little confused. Do you
23:33
Speaker 1: think that's more for you so you can classify yourself. No,
23:37
Speaker 1: it's fully because like outside sources are in my head,
23:41
Speaker 1: like not like or when people write about your music. Yeah,
23:46
Speaker 1: it's like it's like I don't really I don't really
23:50
Speaker 1: read my press unless it's like the New Yorker, thank
23:53
Speaker 1: you very much, but but like im what a black
24:02
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm still confused. But the New Yorker has
24:05
Speaker 1: approved um. But I think that I get pretty confused
24:11
Speaker 1: once it goes out there and it's like seen in
24:13
Speaker 1: a certain way, and I'm like what wait. I was
24:16
Speaker 1: looking at the comments on YouTube for the water Me
24:19
Speaker 1: Down video. Lord are they bad? They are so great? Okay,
24:23
Speaker 1: it's like overwhelmingly positive. Okay, good, you should read them
24:27
Speaker 1: if you're ever feeling that I'm scared. I can't anything negative.
24:35
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, it is so encouraging as it
24:38
Speaker 1: goes down in the YouTube comments, people are vicious, but
24:42
Speaker 1: it's the only I will say. The times where I
24:45
Speaker 1: feel the most sure of what I've made is when
24:48
Speaker 1: I'm performing, because that is the only time that I'm
24:51
Speaker 1: interacting with people who are um, they don't even have
24:55
Speaker 1: to say anything to me, but just energetically they're letting
24:59
Speaker 1: me know where in this together. And I don't feel
25:01
Speaker 1: like I just have like press and like numbers in
25:06
Speaker 1: my inbox and like, you know, like but when I'm
25:10
Speaker 1: sitting at home writing, like that's my thread to what
25:13
Speaker 1: is going on with my records. So it's like it's
25:18
Speaker 1: it's very different when I'm on tour and I'm like
25:22
Speaker 1: going to I'm like going to places and seeing people
25:25
Speaker 1: and be like holy crap, like what And that's when
25:28
Speaker 1: it feels like, Okay, we're all right. Yeah. What does
25:32
Speaker 1: it feel like to when you're performing life to look
25:34
Speaker 1: down and have people just like looking at you with
25:37
Speaker 1: love in their eyes? Uh? I don't know. It's pretty embarrassing.
25:43
Speaker 1: I have this thing where if I open my eyes
25:47
Speaker 1: for too long while performing, I will like sing a
25:49
Speaker 1: bad note like like it gets too real, Like it
25:54
Speaker 1: gets so like, so I have to like look when
25:57
Speaker 1: my eyes are open, I have to look right past everybody.
25:59
Speaker 1: So you know, I don't I don't spend much time
26:02
Speaker 1: at the merch table anymore, but that's really where I
26:04
Speaker 1: got to talk to people and that's where I got
26:06
Speaker 1: to like hang out with people in a way that
26:08
Speaker 1: was like, you know, we're on the same level because
26:11
Speaker 1: I think, I don't know, I don't know if I'm
26:13
Speaker 1: supposed to be into the whole, Like I'm more elevated
26:16
Speaker 1: than you think. But it kind of freaks me out
26:19
Speaker 1: a little bit. So my favorite line on the last
26:21
Speaker 1: album from every Woman is all the women I meet
26:24
Speaker 1: are tired? Where did that come from? Um? It's like
26:29
Speaker 1: loosely referencing a poem by Naira Wahid And it's in
26:34
Speaker 1: this book called Njema that I really enjoyed, And it's
26:38
Speaker 1: just a it's just a a like a line that
26:45
Speaker 1: I think like unites a lot of people. It's it's
26:49
Speaker 1: one that a lot of people can understand. So do
26:52
Speaker 1: you want to play a little bit of that, Let's
26:53
Speaker 1: do it. We'll be back with more from Vagabond after
26:57
Speaker 1: the break. We're back with the rest of our interview
27:04
Speaker 1: with Vagabond. What part of your music are you enjoying
27:07
Speaker 1: the most so far? Is it the songwriting, between the songwriting,
27:10
Speaker 1: the recording, the performing. Right now, I'm enjoying I think
27:15
Speaker 1: performing is number one, and then recording has become number two.
27:21
Speaker 1: Songwriting is just kicking my ass lately. But if you
27:25
Speaker 1: asked me like last year, I would have said I
27:28
Speaker 1: enjoy songwriting. But that's I'm I'm writing now, So I'm
27:34
Speaker 1: that's like where I'm like emotionally like getting a beating
27:38
Speaker 1: all the time. So is it hard because you're running
27:41
Speaker 1: out of things to talk about or you can't find
27:44
Speaker 1: ways to express things? No, I it's hard because more
27:49
Speaker 1: people are watching, so the pressure is on. Yeah, and
27:53
Speaker 1: I'm trying, and I'm like I had this thought. I
27:55
Speaker 1: was like, what if I just like got a job
27:58
Speaker 1: somewhere and I didn't think about music all the time.
28:02
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I was like, what if I
28:04
Speaker 1: just like, what if I just like was a coder
28:08
Speaker 1: like and then just it's like but it's almost like
28:12
Speaker 1: self protect. It's like I want to go back to
28:14
Speaker 1: the time and again. This is so I feel like
28:18
Speaker 1: I'm in therapy right now. This is not this is
28:21
Speaker 1: not a real thing. This is me freaking out. Like
28:23
Speaker 1: this is me like writing an album and freaking out
28:25
Speaker 1: like that's when we're talking. But it's I want to
28:29
Speaker 1: like not think about music twenty four seven to a
28:32
Speaker 1: point where it's like insane, you know. Yeah, like maybe
28:35
Speaker 1: I'll go volunteer somewhere and like do that for like
28:39
Speaker 1: four days a week so that something else is occupying
28:42
Speaker 1: my time besides me and my music, because you just
28:45
Speaker 1: don't want you don't want music to feel like work. Yeah,
28:47
Speaker 1: I don't want it to feel like it's the only
28:51
Speaker 1: thing that I know how to do and it's the
28:53
Speaker 1: only place that I hold my like all my eggs,
28:57
Speaker 1: you know. I want to like yeah, yeah, that that
29:00
Speaker 1: seems a little dangerous, and so I want to like
29:04
Speaker 1: I want to, Yeah, I think I'm just gonna volunteer somewhere,
29:08
Speaker 1: like yeah, like play with Kenny, yeah, like like yeah,
29:11
Speaker 1: like please like right now, there are so many things
29:13
Speaker 1: that I could do with my time instead of sitting
29:16
Speaker 1: there and being like, oh, like I never feel like,
29:19
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter what you do, so don't stop,
29:24
Speaker 1: like that will matter. No, I don't plan to do.
29:30
Speaker 1: What do you feel naturally drawn sort of like writing
29:33
Speaker 1: about mostly mostly it's sad, and I think that's because
29:39
Speaker 1: of how I like started writing songs, and like, you know,
29:43
Speaker 1: a lot of people write from that space, a lot
29:45
Speaker 1: of people, but like I can't write a song about
29:48
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to write a song about being
29:51
Speaker 1: happy or like so happy I had to write a
29:54
Speaker 1: song Like it's usually like so mad or so sad
29:58
Speaker 1: that I have to write a song. Um, And that's
30:01
Speaker 1: just kind of like what my first songs were about
30:03
Speaker 1: was like all like grappling all this stuff that was confusing.
30:07
Speaker 1: So I think that that's like currently and up until now,
30:12
Speaker 1: has been where where I draw the most like emotion from.
30:18
Speaker 1: I think songs about hardship, suffering, heartbreak might be more
30:23
Speaker 1: interesting than happy songs hot take. Yeah, no, I mean
30:28
Speaker 1: I I'm biased, but you know I'm away. I'm always
30:32
Speaker 1: drawn to like super sad songs. Yeah, I mean me too, Yeah,
30:36
Speaker 1: I have, I have been in the past, Like those
30:40
Speaker 1: are the songs that I like. And it's weird because
30:44
Speaker 1: I also listened to a lot of pop music that
30:46
Speaker 1: I'm that is not like devastating, you know. Um, But
30:53
Speaker 1: I think because I've just like, oh, like I had
30:55
Speaker 1: a very sad time like when I was a teenager.
31:01
Speaker 1: That that's you know when we're talking about like listening
31:03
Speaker 1: to pop punk and yeah, exactly an emo and like
31:07
Speaker 1: all that stuff like that's it's not so much that
31:10
Speaker 1: I related to the content of their lyrics, but it
31:13
Speaker 1: was like the emotion um so, like even if it's
31:17
Speaker 1: a happy song, like how it emotes has to kind
31:19
Speaker 1: of be like forceful and your great. Yeah you know. So,
31:26
Speaker 1: is there anybody that you consider to be just a
31:28
Speaker 1: musical genius m who you're just completely in awe of.
31:33
Speaker 1: Well it changes all the time, obviously, but right now
31:36
Speaker 1: I'm pretty obsessed with Roy Orbison. Yeah, Like, look what
31:41
Speaker 1: is it about him? I mean just the drama, the
31:45
Speaker 1: like the it's grand and it's like really incredible vocalist
31:51
Speaker 1: and the songs are great, and it's just kind of
31:55
Speaker 1: this this like type of singing that makes me like
32:00
Speaker 1: I'm just super um interested and impressed and like I
32:03
Speaker 1: want to know everything about him these days. I heard
32:07
Speaker 1: a story about him that when he sang, he barely
32:10
Speaker 1: opened his mouth. That see that's classic crooner. I love it.
32:14
Speaker 1: I love it. I'm so jealous. I don't get what
32:17
Speaker 1: people talk about. Oh it's my royal orbits, Yeah beautiful,
32:22
Speaker 1: Oh my god, And I like it's so I've been
32:26
Speaker 1: playing um that song crying like can you do that?
32:31
Speaker 1: So good? I wish I let me not embarrassed myself.
32:37
Speaker 1: It's so it's so good. It's a dramatic song. I'm
32:42
Speaker 1: saying the sad drama like that's what makes a good song.
32:45
Speaker 1: I'm here for it. And that's the thing. It's like
32:47
Speaker 1: it's sad, but it still makes you feel good. Yeah.
32:50
Speaker 1: Is there a song that you're trying to write now
32:52
Speaker 1: that you just can't articulate yet? Um, like a feeling
32:58
Speaker 1: you're trying to get at or an experience you're trying
33:01
Speaker 1: to work through. Yeah, I mean they are like a lot,
33:05
Speaker 1: There are a lot of them, But that's usually that
33:08
Speaker 1: writing songs have gotten harder for me. It's I'm definitely
33:14
Speaker 1: thinking more. One thing I'm obsessed with right now is
33:17
Speaker 1: like my songs sounding, my songs reading well without the music,
33:22
Speaker 1: because I've been so I've been so like obsessed with
33:26
Speaker 1: production and arrangement and those things are super important. But
33:32
Speaker 1: like some of my favorite like like mostly folk music,
33:36
Speaker 1: but like are all they just read so beautifully when
33:40
Speaker 1: you just read the lyrics? And what's an example of
33:43
Speaker 1: a song you're thinking of? I mean everything on Joni
33:46
Speaker 1: Mitchell's Blue Um, like Joanna Newsom's lyric. Have you ever
33:51
Speaker 1: read that like without music? Dance right, dance as fuck
33:56
Speaker 1: it is, and and it's masterful actually when you read
34:01
Speaker 1: it and you see all the way I mean, I
34:04
Speaker 1: don't know if she was like an English person, but
34:10
Speaker 1: it's just it kind of just reads like a like
34:12
Speaker 1: a book and it's impressive. And English, being my second language,
34:16
Speaker 1: I just have never really like felt precious about saying
34:21
Speaker 1: something in the most poetic way, like and I'm trying to.
34:27
Speaker 1: I'm trying to just like see what that world is
34:30
Speaker 1: about see see. And Julie Byrne. Do y'all know Julie Byrne.
34:35
Speaker 1: She's amazing. She had a record called Not Even Happiness,
34:40
Speaker 1: and there's a song she had that she has on
34:43
Speaker 1: there called I Live Now as a Singer and it's
34:48
Speaker 1: just like it's just poetry, but it also is an
34:51
Speaker 1: incredible song. So that's been kind of what I've been
34:54
Speaker 1: going through my songwriting. That's wonder if before we got
34:57
Speaker 1: I Know you were going to do like a Joanna Newsom. Yeah,
35:00
Speaker 1: I think you switched it up, right, I think I
35:03
Speaker 1: switched it up. And yeah, I've been kind of obsessing
35:07
Speaker 1: over this song called Reason to Believe by Karen Dalton. Yeah, reason,
35:11
Speaker 1: but I think it goes I think it's a Tim
35:12
Speaker 1: Hardens it is right earlier, it is. It's so good.
35:17
Speaker 1: Um and Corney Barnett and I just recorded a cover
35:20
Speaker 1: of it like two days ago, and so it's like
35:21
Speaker 1: in my head. Yeah, I haven't played the Journeys Win
35:24
Speaker 1: in a while, so should we play that new game
35:27
Speaker 1: to play it? Yeah? That was awesome. Thank you, Yeah,
35:32
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, Thank you so much for coming by. Yeah,
35:34
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. This was really fun. Thanks to
35:39
Speaker 1: Vagabond for sitting down with me and Leah. I'm playing
35:41
Speaker 1: some music for us. She was all set to head
35:44
Speaker 1: out on the headlining tour across the country, but that's
35:47
Speaker 1: been postponed for the time being. In the meantime, you
35:49
Speaker 1: can hear all of our favorite Vagabond songs by heading
35:52
Speaker 1: to broken record podcast dot com. Broken Record is produced
35:56
Speaker 1: help from Jason Gambrel, Mia Bell, Leo Rose, Matt Leboza,
35:59
Speaker 1: and my Ten Gonzalez for Pushkin Industries. Our theme musics
36:03
Speaker 1: by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.