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Fatherhood & Neurodiversity: Dr. Robert Zeitlin on Parenting, Emotional Growth & Community · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Inch Stones. Today we have someone that came into my life through a friend. And I'm realizing more and more that the best connectors in life are the ones that are recognized from a heart source of one other that you respect and love to another. And Today I have Dr. Robert Zeitlin on the on the Instance podcast, who was brought to me in a capacity that I never realized was so profound in my own life as a mother, because his work is in that of the fathers. And Dr. Robert Zeiton, you are a positive psychologist and feminist dad who coach myriads number of fathers across the country with your work. And I am so thankful that you're holding space for us today.
• 0:47
  Speaker B: I'm so excited to be here.
• 0:49
  Speaker A: Well, we're going to delve right in because as I like to make this really concise for everyone, tell me, how does your understanding of neurodiversity inform your own practice with fathers and men who wish to lean in so deeply into their fatherhood?
• 1:06
  Speaker B: Neurodiversity hits my practice in a number of different ways because working with dads means we're also working with families. And so expanding my professional understanding of neurodiversity and then helping my families and clients expand their understanding, which has grown in the time that I've been a psychologist, from just a diagnosis to something that is much, much more than that. And now we're getting to the point of understanding the many dimensions of neurodiversity and how it's much more than a diagnosis and actually can be in a lot of ways, a superpower and a way that families can embrace their own internal diversity and also expand who they are being for each other and who they are being for their community.
• 2:01
  Speaker A: You know, on a personal level, I think it takes a lot of deep inner work proactively on a person to do that and to realize that we all have those moments of pivoting growth that are going to be hard but necessary. And I like that you call that a superpower. You know, autism and neurodiversity for my children as well. It allowed me to recognize it within myself. How do you. How would you suggest someone who is really on the first stages of neurodiversity education for themselves and their family. What would you suggest would be some of the first steps they take, which.
• 2:36
  Speaker B: I'm so excited to answer this question now versus when I was trying to answer it 10 years ago, because I think the resources are so plentiful now and coming from direct sources, coming from people who are hashtag actually autistic and being able to understand the dimensions of this again, beyond a DSM diagnosis and something that was misunderstood, mislabeled, and generally missed for a long time. The number of dads, the number of young adults that are coming to me in my practice and saying, I think I might be on the spectrum, I think I might be neurodivergent, has just blown up. And not just because the diagnosis is becoming broader, but also because of all these resources.
• 3:25
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 3:26
  Speaker B: So in direct answer to your question, I think it's very hard to go out on social media or anywhere, podcasts, etc. And not find someone that might resonate for you and might give you perspective on this, whether they're learning about it themselves and they're sharing their journey, whether they're trying to explain what their life has been like to you, whether they're exploring executive dysfunction, whether they're exploring neurodiversity. I think there's a lot of resources out there. You know, I honestly, I honestly think it's hard not to find something that would inform your journey.
• 4:00
  Speaker A: Right. Do you, how, how do you find that we as parents can, and then I think extended families, close family friends, make the spaces in our homes and within our communities saf for neurodivergent individuals to feel that emotional safety, to feel that cognitive safety. How do you feel that we can build those places to be safer for neurodivergent individuals?
• 4:22
  Speaker B: First, I want to expand on what you said about safety because often we think in very stark, simple terms about physical safety, but there is cognitive safety, there's social safety, there's emotional safety, and expanding that definition is a starting point. But, but the direct answer to your question, and the center of all work that I do with parents, and I did as a parent myself, is to start with myself. And so how do you expand the safety zone in your family? How do you create a community, a mini community within your family that can then resonate out to the larger community? The answer is to begin with yourself. So to start to identify things that scare you, things that are challenges for you, and start to find some kind of self reflective practice. It could even be prayer, but like journaling, meditating, having conversations with other people that are in similar situations so you can learn from each other is the starting point, I think has to come from the inside out, as all parenting growth does.
• 5:33
  Speaker A: Now, I'm sure this is a micro or, I'm sorry, a macro topic, but I really believe that modeling the behaviors that we want out of our children, whether they're typical or divergent is the core of all of this. You know, I, in recognizing my own neurodiversity later on in my late 30s and with an ADHD diagnoses, it gave me more understanding of myself to then model the best practices to all three of my children. And they're vastly different in their own selves. Right. But I, I do believe it does all start within. It takes a lot of ignition energy. And I think for people with neurodiversity that ignition energy is layered in fear and approval and no desire to fail. So that even starting that self reflection and that ability to look, look inwards. Why can't I do that? Why am I so. Why do I struggle so much with that? And everyone else seems to just do it like as it's, if it's second, you know, second nature, how do you suggest as a professional we, we as parents can do that knowing it's going to be hard, even if culturally it seems like it should be simple?
• 6:46
  Speaker B: Yeah. I think we bang our heads up against shame and guilt and regret all the time.
• 6:51
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 6:52
  Speaker B: And so I'm going to answer on two levels. On a, on a, if this is the first time you're recognizing that's what you're bumping your head up against, then some simple practices like journaling or like finding some like minded people or finding some simple meditation practice. Find a YouTube video, download insight Timer, find something that works for you, that gives you a little bit of room in your life to pause and reflect a little bit. That's the, that's the, the top layer. The people that are just coming to us at a deeper level. There's a lot of resources out there about recognizing what parts of ourselves we're sort of pushing away. And it's sort of in the shadow side of ourselves and there's, it's part of manifestation programs, part of other things. But look into like shadow work and finding other ways to kind of not just identify those parts that you're bumping your head up against, but figure out how to include them, find out what they need and figure out a way to have those parts of you work in synchrony as opposed to pulling you back from the things that stop you, that make you worried about feeling accepted, that make you worried about, you know, what your uncle Joel say at Thanksgiving, you know, that's right. It's such a small piece of your life. And a big bigger part is what you're doing, as you said about role modeling, what you're projecting, not just what you're saying, and not, not just what you're doing, but who you're being. And, and that being part goes very deep. But a place to start, like I said, is to build in some kind of self reflection and be able to sort of be honest with yourself and notice the things you're bumping your head up against.
• 8:28
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, you know, this is where I, I lean a lot on stoicism and, and saying the ego is the enemy in a lot of ways and that, that bumping your head against something is just this internal ego going, you know, why am I like this?
• 8:42
  Speaker B: Yeah. That doesn't happen unless you accept it in your own self. It doesn't start. It has to start somewhere. As you were saying before, it's from the inside out and the inch stone idea and the, the value of recognizing these small gains and building on them and taking them on and owning them comes back to your last question. It's very hard to do that if you're weighed down with regret and guilt and shame and worrying about what others are thinking. If you can own your successes, each inch of them, you can build something and you can create a more gratifying life for yourself, which ultimately benefits our kids. The research is showing that. The line about a happy mom, happy wife, happy life, happy mom. The research is showing that's one of the greatest impacts on kids. And now I'm expanding it to dads.
• 9:31
  Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. So let's go into the happiness of dads and the community that you so beautifully have created and with dad's Night Out. Talk about that with us.
• 9:41
  Speaker B: Sure. I have been working with families and specifically moms for a long time. In my private practice, moms were often the ones bringing the kids in. They. And worrying about the mental health and wellness of their families. And the dads were often off working or sort of in an advisory role. But I realized over, over the time how much leverage those dads had if they could make even an inch. Getting back to your concept, even an inch of progress in a direction of being more present with their kids, of growing their emotional intelligence and being able to be there with their family more. The, the possibility, the, the growth possibility from a little bit of progress from dads. And so I started creating programs and I wrote a book recently about dads to be a better partner. And the Dad's Night out concept sort of came naturally from that because we don't have a space. You know, moms often don't have opportunities, as you're saying, to get together and share Best practices. But compared to dads, there's a million opportunities.
• 10:47
  Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely there are. Yeah.
• 10:50
  Speaker B: So I decided to create something where we could create a safe space where it didn't need to be around a beer or football or talking about Marvel movies, you know, the things. It isn't often feeling safe for guys to get together, but create a space where all these unanswered questions that they have about health, about wellness, about their kids, about everything can get asked. Because when we talk about shame and guilt and regret, you know, there's a lot of things stamping stump holding down dads from asking these questions. The vulnerable ones and even the benign ones.
• 11:25
  Speaker A: Do you find that there's a primal wiring to fathers in terms of feeling isolated or that they have to be solo and have this silo of their position? Women, we tend and befriend. We crave community. Do men. Do men have to learn that more? Do we have to. Do men have to lean into.
• 11:44
  Speaker B: I think the cool part is I think that I'm seeing a new generation of men that are breaking out of those molds. Wiring, fighting the wiring, recognizing the value they're placing on family and connectedness and relationship. And the problem with that is those same guys have been set into a remote work world and after the pandemic, really found very few ways to connect with each other. And so dad's night out is an opportunity to reach those guys and give them a space where they can come out of their remote work basements, find a way to connect with other dads and fight that wiring.
• 12:24
  Speaker A: Could you provide a real life example of someone that you've worked with that has been vulnerable enough to come to you with these questions and desire for community and where they. Where, you know, your dad's night out has taken them, or what you've seen or what they've shared. Because I think a lot of men like to see practicality in outcomes based, you know, nights or offerings like this. And I don't believe it takes away from the actual work, but I think that there might be. It might be really helpful to know, you know, what. What that looks like.
• 12:57
  Speaker B: Yeah. At the last meeting, there were two guys that spoke up and one talked about finding resources on his own of trying to answer questions about, like, how is he supposed to be on the sidelines of his kids sports that, you know, he just gets so intensely emotional with, you know, so he's looking up podcasts, trying to find. But here we were in a room of guys who had a shared experience. You could see his Shoulders drop. You could see a sense of, well, it's not just me. Like, I think we all have that guys, everyone of this sense of like, I'm the only one that's ever experienced this. You know, you talked about the journey with, with your neurodivergent kids and I think so for him, that was one example of like, I'm not going this alone and I'm not out in the desert trying to find a drop of water. There's actually resources out here that can help me. And then another dad talked about, we talked, just went right to sports. He's a, a guy in the arts and there's no, you know, there's nothing that comes off about him as cavemany or kind of like testosterone filled. Yeah. But he travels a lot and he gets in the, these Ubers with, with these male drivers and he has studied enough of the local football team to start a conversation. And that's the only way that it feels safe to engage and to have a conversation. Having, having, that said, in a space with other men and, and dads and recognizing how we're sort of locked into. We only have a few notes that we can hit in order to feel safe and comfortable that we can actually get into other subjects. And so those are two examples from recently that can be just in a sense of inch stones, like a moment of progress, a break in the wall, a fighting of the wiring that can start the process of actually connecting and getting to the point where I'm. I feel safe enough to ask that question. That's really in the back of my mind, but I feel a little ashamed to ask.
• 15:01
  Speaker A: Right. I mean, I think the word that keeps arising right now is safety. And how you said it's not just physical safety, it's emotional safety, it's psychological safety. And I think for the women and the mothers that I, that are in my community that I hope to inspire is saying to have a mantra about I'm safe, my children are safe, and we're still going to attempt something that feels scary, that feels a bit uncomfortable, that feels awkward and holding space for that feeling. I use the example of like taking my kids to Disney World a lot because I think that didn't start with me just doing that. You know, that took a lot of my desire to put. To go to new playgrounds all the time, to know that we wouldn't spend much time at new playgrounds, but that we were still getting there to explore and what exploration looks like to them. Not going to look the same. My typical oldest daughter and eventually choosing new communities, choosing new situations will become the norm. And it has. And I think that specifically within the special needs and neurodivergent community of parents. And I think that harnessing what I get to do doesn't mean it's less than. It's still, it's still very empowerful.
• 16:20
  Speaker B: I think that, I think that view of time, to take a different perspective on time, to climb out of, you know, whatever vice you feel like you're in, to be able to view time as something that you can choose as opposed to a scarcity mindset that you are going to be completely subject to a work schedule, you know, a activity schedule. Life is too short. Life is simply too short. There was a great book I read recently. I'm going to mess up the title, 4,000 weeks, I think.
• 16:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, I have a poster. I have the 4000 weeks poster.
• 17:00
  Speaker B: Yeah. And he just breaks down the idea that we're looking at time in a very dysfunctional way. And I think there are ways that we can take advantage of time. And getting to your first statement about the six second, the unpleasant feelings that come up if we can sort of weather the storm and get to the other side. I have a friend that asked me, I was calling to complain to him and he said, are you having a bad day or are you having a bad five minutes?
• 17:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love that you share calling a friend. I remember when my kids were diagnosed and having that two and a half year age gap with Millie and Mac and then also having a typical five year old developing and going to Montessori school and all the typical things when I would call my friends to a moat or vent, you know, and just having them listen and hold space. It was oftentimes just that small chunk of time. It didn't take much to connect, release and move on. Even though that person does not live my life or understand the complexities of what I was going through. I listened recently. Simon Sinek said, if you have a person in your life that you can call and vent and know will hold space for you, eight minutes is all it takes. So if you. I know as a special needs and I thought, I'm really struggling right now. If I can reach out to one of my best friends, close colleagues and say, do you have eight minutes? It seems again we have this really deeply wired, strange conditioning over time that that in and of itself can just move you through and to keep moving. I think keeping moving is also a part of this inch zone versus milestones mentality or the small building Blocks of learning about yourself. If you can keep moving, you know that that gains rapid speed and the conditioning is rewired, then.
• 18:51
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think. And getting back to your theme about engaging in the world and how challenging, what a small part of the neurodivergent parenting community you are that are, that are reaching for things like a trip to Disney. But I think going back to this eight minute, going back to reaching out to a friend, how valuable it was to me that that lesson that my friend shared with me that I'm still sharing to this day, but also how many guys and dads don't have that friend on speed dial, don't know someone they can reach out to. And one of the goals of Dad's Night out is to build that community and to create those friendships so that we can start to make that call. Maybe the first call is like, we don't get into it and we're sort of like, hey, how's your day? And we never really talk about ourselves, but we get to that point where we can say, hey, do you have eight minutes? Because everyone needs a friend in those moments. And there are certain emotions that we've been talking about, like shame and regret that can really dissipate with a little bit of engagement and conversation.
• 19:56
  Speaker A: I've, I've really loved in having those conversations with companies about neurodiversity. And I wanted to lean on what you said before about younger dads and something I believe and I love about younger millennials and Gen Z becoming parents. They have an emotional intelligence that's greater than generations before. And I think before I started speaking sort of loudly on stages to this, I always thought I was speaking to my peers. I was speaking to, you know, I mean, I'm a geriatric millennial. Like, I sit right on the cusp of Gen X. And I never realized the effect, the beautiful effect of a younger generation having an emotional capacity that I did not have at 23. I was not trying to learn and seek out emotional ways to understand my future self. Right. And so I think what you're creating within this, these dads Night out, is only going to grow because the dads that are coming up hopefully have been more wired to accept those emotional growths and those lean ins with emotional capacity that's greater.
• 21:07
  Speaker B: Yeah, I feel self conscious being an older dad in a room of younger dads. But I'm super excited that I don't have to. As I first thought about this 10, 15 years ago, like, create the wave pool and then create the wave and Then figure out how to build a surfboard and. But there's, there are waves coming. And I agree with you that I think the generational shift in fatherhood and there are leaps every generation, the last few generations in fatherhood leaps, not just movement, but leaps. This next leap, I'm really excited to grab a surfboard and drive that way.
• 21:40
  Speaker A: So to that end, I know that you run Dad's Night out locally. Do you do this virtually? And how can fathers of the listeners of Inches Podcast find community that are not local to your area?
• 21:55
  Speaker B: Yeah, I run a virtual six week program called the Best Dad Ever and it gets into six of the each week a theme, you know, six of the myriad of things that I've experienced and worked with coaching clients on to get deep into those. And we also keep it really limited to a small group of dads. We do it online and we meet six weeks and that seems to be a period of time that people can commit to. And then we're. I'm still in communication for the next couple weeks after it until the next cohort starts. So yeah, on my website are both the live event, if you're in the Philadelphia area, Dad's night out and then also be the best dad ever, which is a virtual offering.
• 22:38
  Speaker A: Well, I can't wait to promote that on the website and through the podcast because I know that the fathers of newly diagnosed autistic children and any disability or whatever curveball was thrown at both fathers and mothers. This is the kind of thing that will allow someone to feel less alone. And I, and I really believe that that's all we're all looking to do is to feel less alone and so thankful for your work. I know that you're creating better human beings, better fathers because of you're putting the power back in them to do so. I can't wait to see, you know what, where your tribe of dads grows and how it grows.
• 23:14
  Speaker B: Thanks. I'm really excited and I think this is a great opportunity to reach out to a new community. I really appreciate this opportunity.
• 23:21
  Speaker A: Wonderful. Well, Dr. Robert Zeitlin, thank you so much. And until next time on the Inch Jones Podcast.