Latest / Work Permit South Africa Podcast / Immigration: Catalyst for Economic Growth in South Africa | Dr. Leon Schreiber & Marisa Jacobs Discuss Home Affairs Transformation

Transcript

Immigration: Catalyst for Economic Growth in South Africa | Dr. Leon Schreiber & Marisa Jacobs Discuss Home Affairs Transformation · Work Permit South Africa Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hello, I'm David O'Sullivan.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome to this podcast discussion with the Minister of Home Affairs, dr Leon Schreiber.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: It's brought to you by ExpatWeb, south Africa's largest independent work permit practice, with me as well, the MD of ExpatWeb, and that is Marissa Jacobs.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Welcome to both of you.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much, minister.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Can I start with you, and the focus I feel in the next 20 minutes is going to be about immigration as a key driver for economic stimulation.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: A very interesting stat that you have given is that if we can attract 16,000 scarce-skilled jobs to South Africa per year, we grow the economy significantly.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: 1.2% Expand on that for me, yeah.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: So there's two key pieces to this data.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: The first one is National Treasury's research, which identified the key interventions that would yield the biggest economic growth and job creation impact, and they listed eradicating load shedding as the first one and the most impactful one.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: But second was not transnet or ports or crime or any of these other issues, it was actually skills attracting skills to South Africa from about 5,000 to about 16,000 per year that that could boost annual economic growth by up to 1.2%, just to put that in context.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: At the moment the economy is growing by about 0.6%, so this triples economic growth as one intervention, but then you can add things like tourism, where you could get up to another 0.6% of GDP growth.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: It is absolutely remarkable once you realize that Home Affairs sits with the potential to grow the economy by 1.5, 1.6% a year if we get some of these things right.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: And so I think that information, this research, really sort of emphasizes that Home Affairs, in addition to its critical roles in national security and in civic administration, has a fundamental role to play as an economic enabler, and that's where I think a lot of the opportunity lies in South Africa to address really the most pressing crisis in the country, which is unemployment, but which has also been identified by the government of national unity as the apex priority.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: This is the number one goal that all departments are expected to work towards.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: I'm excited that Home Affairs has a massive opportunity to contribute towards that goal.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: So it's got a massive opportunity.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: How does it see it realised, Marisa, you dealing with these issues on the ground, trying to get permits for people with scarce skills coming in from abroad?
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: What is standing in the way of us bringing in 16,000 skilled workers per year?
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Let me maybe start by saying some of the positive interventions from the Department of Home Affairs, such as the Trusted Employer Scheme, which has been rolled out to 71 companies, really enables bringing in that critical skills.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: It reduces the document requirement which is a burden it's difficult to get.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: To put that into perspective, it is one of the documents you need is you need to get your foreign qualifications verified by the South African Qualifications Authority.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: It is another severely understaffed department.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: It takes on average four months to get that done.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: So if a business decides today they recruit someone today to bring in, it takes a minimum of four months to get the documents verified by SACWA and then only after that document comes through can they proceed to apply for professional body registration, which takes another month.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Then they submit the visa application.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: Then we're looking at one to two months for the department to process that application to two months for the department to process that application.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: So it sounds ridiculous to say that you must wait six, seven, eight months to mobilize critical skill talent.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: So the Trusted Employer Scheme takes away that SACWA process.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: They say please do that in your own time.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: We will in the interim issue you your visa and you can do that in the background.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: So we're not saying you mustn't comply with it, we're just saying we're not going to let that delay business.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: So that trusted employer scheme intervention is massive for business, but we need to either roll it out to more businesses or we need to find a way to fix this SACWA problem, because otherwise we will not be able to fix the critical skills problem.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: It is just not by that time.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: Remember that is skill talent that's globally in demand.
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: South Africa is not the only country that is bidding for that talent.
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: They have an offer from many other countries as well, many other organizations, so they simply go too hard.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: I'm going to go to France.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Marissa.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: With the introduction, though, of the Trusted Employers Scheme that was in March of this year have you seen a significant turnaround in processing times?
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Have you seen the scheme actually paying dividends?
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: It has been phenomenal.
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: It has as a business, as feedback from business.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: We have said it's the most successful intervention from the Department of Home Affairs in the past two decades since we've been doing immigration from the Department of Home Affairs in the past two decades since we've been doing immigration, it really has been rolled out from a department perspective in the most phenomenal way.
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: The team that is on it is fantastic.
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, there's teething problems.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: There's teething problems with anything that you do.
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: That's not a Home Affairs thing.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: That is, if we roll something out in business tomorrow, we'll also have teething problems.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: So we are so patient with that and willing to wait and we have really can complement the department and their team in terms of that.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Let's just talk about what you need and I'm sure your laundry list is pretty long, minister of things that you would need in order to improve on the wins that you've had and overcome the backlogs that you are facing.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: If we could start with the issue of staff how understaffed are you?
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, home Affairs really has a major problem.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: It's been cut really severely over the last few years perhaps more than any other government department, certainly in the last financial year and the consequence of that has been that while we need 18,000 staff members, we've got seven, seven and a half, so we're sitting around 40%, less than half, less than half of the human capacity that the organogram tells us we need.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: So that is the environment we find ourselves in.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: We understand the financial and fiscal constraints, and every single time I interact with a part of the department, I just see shocking vacancy rates.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: So what we need to then do is say we can either complain about this and say we wish we had all these people I'm sorry, we can't fix it because we don't have enough people or we need to innovate, and that's but one of the motivations for what I think needs to be the central focus of this department if we are to achieve our vision, which is to turn home affairs into a department that delivers dignity.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: And we can do that only in this environment of being understaffed, if we fully embrace technology, and I think some of it is happening in sort of scattershot way with the DES scheme, with some other innovations that are coming, but I think we need to now have a really systemic focus on making sure that we use technology to do things we've never done before, but the good news is it's happened before.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: In this country, the South African Revenue Service faced many problems that are, from a process perspective, similar to what Home Affairs faces Massive piles of paperwork to work through, links in the chain that were broken, where humans could interfere, subvert, processes, delay.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: You know it's not a new story what we're facing at Home Affairs.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: So we need to take the example, I believe, of what we know happened at SARS the way that that organization was modernized and make and learn those lessons and do the same at Home Affairs.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: And learn those lessons and do the same at Home Affairs.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: At the heart of what we need to achieve, whether it is for positioning Home Affairs as the economic enabler it should be, whether it's for addressing the very serious threats to national security from border management's perspective, or whether it's for the civic administration dealing with people getting IDs and birth certificates and critical documents, in every single one of these cases, at the heart sits the system, the fragmentation, the paper-based nature thereof, the lack of integration and what we then need to do now is say we live in 2024 and say we're going to modernize and we will make sure that we take technology, all the opportunities and exploit it fully to make up for the fact that we simply don't have enough people.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so we don't need to employ more people, we need to automate.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Automation, I would imagine Marisa would make your life and the life of your clients much better.
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: It's just a no brainer and we're extremely excited to hear that that is the direction that the department wants to take.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: The minister said it earlier we live in an age of AI.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: It is the minister said it earlier we live in an age of AI.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: It's going to be much easier for Department of Home Affairs to do this than it was for SARS to get that done.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: So very exciting prospect for business.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: So the other issue then I mentioned staffing being an issue funding will now be the big issue.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Something like this a new technological innovation or intervention is going to come at a price.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Have you been able to?
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Do?
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: You have a number in your head, and does the finance minister know that number?
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: No, because I first need to be persuaded that it needs to be that expensive.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: I am not convinced that all of these kinds of reforms are actually as expensive as the initial response, which is normal.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're talking about technology, but I'm not sure that that's necessarily the case.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: One of the reasons I say that, firstly, is because you know, if you get the right people and you give them a proper laptop and you know you lock them away they're capable of doing amazing things that were not possible, as you say, when SARS was going through this process, for example.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: But secondly, also because I've been very deliberate in saying that the pitfall of funding especially comes when you want a Rolls Royce on day one and say you want a system that will deal with every problem under the sun and can, you know, provide for every eventuality, and you have to license every component and all of that, and then you want to wait five years and then you push a button and it's supposed to be a Rolls Royce.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: That's where problems come in.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: I believe, with many of these IT reforms, what I'm suggesting is let's start small, let's find a case study, a prototype, where we're able to say, perhaps for a particular visa category?
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: What are the steps involved?
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: How can we automate some of the steps in the adjudication process and then test that and then see well, you know, this works, that doesn't.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: How do we refine it Before we go out and say this is the final product?
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: So, in other words, I want a little engine that can, that can show us it's not a Rolls Royce, but it's got the key component that we need, which is absolutely lies with digitization.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: So the financial part of it, it will come.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: That's why I'm out there saying to people if you think this is a good idea, if you think home affairs can be a department that delivers dignity by embracing modern solutions, then my plea is support this vision.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: It's not about a particular minister, it's not about politics, it's not about a person.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: It is about the solution, the kind of reform that we need.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: And we have a great opportunity now because there is a lot of alignment within the government of national unity on this point.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: And I think the more we can demonstrate the logic of this, the returns, the economic returns, the more we can actually win that argument eventually, because the point will come.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: I just think we must build our arsenal, including through a prototype, so that we have an unassailable argument.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: So when you talk about the support, are you talking about support from within government?
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Are you talking about the support?
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Are you talking about support from within government?
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Are you talking about the finance department, tourism, state information technology agency?
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Are you talking about business, big business to assist I'm really talking about all of them.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: The reality is that when you want to deal with societal problems, you must generate support for that, and it will come absolutely with business.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: We're already having discussions not only discussions.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: We are actively working together on something like the eradication of the permitting backlog, which has been a massive constraint on home affairs, because it's just this handbrake that's pulled up and some of those applications go back a decade, so we have to get rid of that.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: We've got good partnerships moving now with business in that case, but we need to go beyond that, and what I'm essentially saying is if you think this is a good idea it doesn't matter if you're in business, civil society or you're just an ordinary South African who's tired of standing in a queue for six hours and then being turned away because the system is offline.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: I'm saying to you here's a vision, and it's not thumb sucked, because look that the revenue service was able to do it and therefore, in whatever space you find yourself, whatever influence you have, make sure that you make this case for home affairs potential as an economic enabler and push that wherever you can.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Marissa, do you see looking at this from your position at Business Unity South Africa, do you see business having the appetite now to do exactly what the minister is asking?
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: I think for the first time in a very long time, there is a positive wind blowing and I can see the sentiment in the room starting to change For the first time in a very long time.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: So that is extremely positive and I think, with the very short term that the minister has had in office and how much has been achieved, business feels like this is possible.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: This is we are moving away from a lot of talk and we are seeing real action and we are seeing real change.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: I'm optimistic about business and the reaction and the government business partnership that is busy starting to happen and I think that it will grow very quickly.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Let's just address one last issue, and that is the issue of the border situation.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Now, I realise it's not your job to secure the borders that's another department that does that but we do have these porous borders and the issue of the Zimbabwe exemption permit, a case that Home Affairs lost.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: It's gone all the way down to the Constitutional Court and they've refused the leave to appeal.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Possibly, I should ask you, Marissa, have you just sketched the situation for us regarding the Zimbabwe exemption permit and what this court case has dictated?
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: So a little bit of background on it, and I think the idea was sound in terms of let's phase out the Zimbabwe exemption permit.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: The intention was always for it to be a temporary solution.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: It's an extremely administratively burdensome permit to keep on renewing, is my understanding from the department, and so when the previous minister made the announcement that it was going to get phased out, there's a period within which they are then asking that valid Zimbabwe exemption permit holders must please transition to a mainstream visa and, additionally, the minister had made available to say if you don't qualify, please apply for a waiver and motivate your circumstances.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: The intention is to move everyone over from a ZEP permit through to a mainstream visa.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: So I think the intention was good, but then obviously, as we've seen, with the rollout of it and the pushback that came from it, which ended up in court, the court agreed that the process that was followed was not consultative enough and that they ultimately agreed that it needed to follow a different path to get to the result.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: So Minister, how are you addressing that issue?
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think consultation is really the key there.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: The court rulings have made it very clear that you cannot make a predetermined decision and then consult after the fact, and so that, to me, is, in any case, a no-brainer.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: I think we need to change the way in which Home Affairs engages with stakeholders more broadly and how seriously we take consultation, because consultation is not a burden, it's not something that holds you back from making a proper decision.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: It is a tool to help inform the proper decision.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean, when you consult, that you agree with everything that's being said, but it informs a more legitimate decision ultimately and legitimacy is going to be important in how we move forward with this particular issue.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: And then, linked to this, is the steps that I've taken to reinstitute the Immigration Advisory Board, which is a forum that exists in law, has not been used for many years, but which brings in statute together organized business, organized labor, officials in the department, as well as experts, policy experts, experts in practice to deal with difficult policy considerations.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: And so I think, by simply starting using the advisory board to genuinely advise and then, as Marissa says, public consultation of a genuine nature with people who hold the permit, with people who are affected in different ways by the permit.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: I think you enrich ultimately the decision and that's how you end up clearing the hurdles in court as well.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: So it is important to say there is no predetermined decision.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: That's exactly where the court said there shouldn't be.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: So we're going to follow a general consultation.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: My mind is open to find the best solution on this and other areas.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Now one of the complaints is about this influx of illegal foreign nationals into South Africa with fake identities, fake identification papers, fake permits.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: What are you doing in that regard and working with hawks?
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Explain the background there, because there have been some significant battles that have been won in terms of prosecutions and people being jailed.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, In fact, we've received news just now that we've prosecuted another person involved in one of these syndicates successfully.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: So do we have Judy Zuma.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: That was on Friday, that was 12 years and this case is five years, and this is very, very positive news.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: I have to commend once again the good people we have in Home Affairs.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: And this is exactly as I keep saying you must walk and chew.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: At the same time, you must be able to say that where there's corruption, we're going to deal with it without fear or favor.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: But the people ironically, in this case specifically and the previous one last week, are Home Affairs officials who dealt with the corruption, because we've got a counter-corruption unit in the department.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: It is criminally understaffed.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: I believe its current component is 28% of what is required, but you cannot believe the difference that a 28% component can make when people are committed, and some of these recent convictions involved suspects even coming and saying but I'll offer you a bribe to make the case go away.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: And our people have held firm and that's why we are now ending with not only dismissals and arrests but actual convictions, because that's really what matters at the end of the day.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: So I would really like to look at ways, perhaps again through cooperation with other stakeholders, to bolster the capacity of this unit.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: It's one of the rare departments in government that actually has this in-house capacity and if we really bolster their work, we can send a very strong message that indeed there is zero tolerance for corruption and it does matter Whatever you think about the scale of the problem.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: When you start sending a message that in fact you will not get away with it, you will go to jail, that does make an impact on the levels of corruption.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Minister, I'd like to end with a sentiment that you've expressed many times, which seems to underpin the work that you're doing and the philosophy that is driving you.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: The word is dignity.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Explain what you mean by bringing dignity to Home Affairs.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: The vision that we must achieve is to deliver dignity.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: We are the department that can deliver dignity, and I mean that on a couple of levels.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Firstly, this is the one department that's involved in every significant moment in the life of every single South African.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: When you are born, this is the department you interact with and you need a birth certificate.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: When you get married, when you have children, when you need to open a bank account, when you pass away, it is the last one that your family interacts with.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: So it is an extremely personal relationship between the citizens of South Africa and the Department of Home Affairs.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: And on that level alone, it is about dignity, because these are things in your life that are personal and therefore we must uphold the dignity of that experience.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: But it also affects the two other key arms of home affairs National security the ability to regulate the sovereign state is something that harms dignity if you fail in doing it, because you create an insecure environment and you take that away from people.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: And then, finally, on economic growth, the third component that I think has been neglected and that we're really pushing front and center now there is nothing that gives dignity like a job and if we can play our proper role as Home Affairs to enable economic growth, job creation, the kind of numbers that research tells us is possible, then we will massively enhance the dignity of unemployed South Africans, the 30 million people living in poverty, you know, the 60% of young people who don't have work.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: And so that, as you say, it's really the vision that's driving me.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Our job now is to say that's the vision, that's who we want to be and how do we get there now.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: And this is through key interventions like automation, regulatory reform, many other things we can talk about, but I think ultimately, david, the real excitement in this department.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Everyone knows about the challenges.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: No one's naive, there's no magic wand, we all know that.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: But the beauty of that situation is that so many people have lost hope in South Africa that things can get better, and I think Home Affairs probably exemplifies that as a department to many South Africans.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: They don't think it can get better.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: So I'm saying to our team that if we can make home affairs work, we will be the department that restores the hope that South Africa can work, and I don't think there's anything more exciting than that opportunity.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Well said, minister.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: More strength to you, and I hope your tenure at Home Affairs is long and fruitful.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: And thank you very much for making time to chat to us, mar.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: And thank you very much for making time to chat to us, marisa.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Thanks to you as well.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: My thanks to the Home Affairs Minister, dr Leon Schreiber, to the MD of ExpatWeb, marisa Jacobs.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: From me, david O'Sullivan, thanks to you for watching.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Bye-bye.