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441 | Do You Really Trust the Child? (What Landreth Teaches Us About Trusting Children) · Play Therapy Podcast: A Master-Class in Child-Centered Play Therapy

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
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Brenna Hicks,
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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
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Hi,
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I'm Dr.
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Brenna Hicks,
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The Kid Counselor.
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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
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a master class in child-centered play therapy
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and practical support and application for your
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work with children and their families.
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In today's episode,
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we're going to talk a little bit more about limit setting.
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However,
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With a little twist,
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a Landreth twist if you will,
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so.
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I want to read
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a section from Art of the Relationship
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on limit setting,
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but ironically,
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I'm not focusing on the limit setting part.
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I'm focusing on a foundational component
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of how and why we set limits and how and why we don't.
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So
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we're going to get to that in a minute.
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However,
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a related aside,
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I received an email recently
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from Laura.
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She gave me permission to read parts of this.
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And since we're talking through
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when we set limits,
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what to keep in mind,
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and specifically the term we're going to focus on with that is trust.
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I want to read what Laura shared with me because y'all don't get the benefit of
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all the people that send me messages and all the people that share their stories and
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And the encouragement and the,
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the excitement of the model and the proof that it works and
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you know,
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sometimes we feel isolated in this and we feel like we're the only one doing it
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and we're the only one with the wins and the struggles.
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And sometimes I think it's helpful to
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share stories and
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encourage and support and uplift each other because
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when we hear other people's experiences,
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they become our own.
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And so,
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Laura,
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thank you for this email.
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I'm gonna read parts of this
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and uh
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it's kinda long,
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but it's worth it.
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I want you all to
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really just kind of take this in and listen to
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these words because this is truly
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at the heart of what we believe
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at CCPTs.
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Is that a child
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is trustworthy.
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So let me read parts of Laura's email.
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Before becoming a therapist,
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I spent many years teaching young children
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in the Reggio Amelia inspired classrooms.
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One of the concepts that has stayed with me is the image of the child,
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end quote.
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The beliefs we hold about who children are
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and what they're capable of.
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In this philosophy,
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educators are invited to reflect on their image of the child
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by asking a deceptively simple question.
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Who do I believe children are?
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I believe that question touches every aspect of our work alongside children.
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It shapes the way we see them,
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relate to them,
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respond to them,
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and ultimately the decisions we make.
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While education and therapy certainly differ in both purpose and practice,
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I believe this is one of the threads that ties them together.
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I share this because through the lens of the image of the child.
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It makes sense to me why this work is sometimes met with resistance.
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Inviting someone to embrace CCPT
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isn't simply asking them to adopt a new technique.
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It's inviting them to reconsider some of
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their most deeply held beliefs about children.
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Our image of the child influences whether we see
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children as empty vessels needing to be filled,
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problems to be managed,
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or capable,
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competent,
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curious human beings
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with an innate drive toward growth.
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It invites us to examine how our own childhood experiences
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and the beliefs we inherited from the adults who raised and
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taught us continue to shape the way we see children today.
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Throughout my years in education,
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I worked alongside many educators,
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but I also encountered beliefs that children needed to be toughened up,
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constantly corrected,
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or directly taught every lesson because they could
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not be trusted to find their own way.
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Those moments were often heartbreaking.
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Like you describe in your episode,
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these moments stay with you
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because they reveal some of the many
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ways children can be misunderstood and diminished.
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What has always given me hope is knowing
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there are people like you who continue to advocate
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for a different way of seeing children.
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You remind us that relationship is healing,
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that behavior is communication,
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and that children deserve to be met with dignity,
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curiosity,
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and unwavering respect.
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As I continue on my own CCPT learning journey,
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I feel in my core
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that it is a profound expression of a deeply respectful image of the child.
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It asks us to trust children rather than control them,
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to wonder instead of assume,
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to believe that given the right relationship and environment,
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children possess an extraordinary capacity
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for healing,
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growth,
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and self-direction.
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You'll probably want to
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rewind that and listen to it again.
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I've read it many times and it hits different every time I read it.
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But I'm sharing that
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because
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I think Laura
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put into words.
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What many of us have experienced
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and felt
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and cried over
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and celebrated
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and deeply understood
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about this work.
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It seems deceptively simple,
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and we ask ourselves
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a deceptively simple question
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from the outside.
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Who do we believe children are?
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And CCPT has a very specific answer.
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And when we see that answer
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lived out differently,
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When we see in another adult
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live out a different answer to who do I believe children are?
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It hits
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because
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we
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Don't always agree
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with the way children are perceived.
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And
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you foil everything that we believe down.
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Into one word
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I think it's trust
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And that is real hard
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for a lot of people,
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a lot of adults,
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a lot of therapists.
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It's hard to trust a child.
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But when we're able to do that,
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it changes everything.
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And that is the spirit of CCPT.
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So let me piggyback on Laura's email now.
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I did not know that these were going to so seamlessly work together,
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by the way.
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That was not on purpose.
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I wish I could have said I planned it,
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but
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I got an email and then I had a topic,
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and they just went really nicely together.
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So,
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I would like to read
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parts of
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Art of the Relationship
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specifically.
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From 303 to 305 in the
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most recent edition.
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This is in the
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therapeutic limit setting chapter,
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so this is chapter 14
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in the most recent edition.
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And so,
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I'm gonna hit some highlights of the first part,
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but what I really wanna dwell on is when we get toward the end
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of this
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second page here.
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But let's kind of
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take this all in because
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limit setting is one of the struggles with which we struggle the most.
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And
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it's complex,
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and it's complex,
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and it's multi-layered,
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and it's multi-layered,
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and it's not easy to execute.
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So I don't think we could ever focus too much on limit setting.
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I know we talked about these last couple of weeks as well.
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But I wanna read Landreth's words because
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it gets to the heart of
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this trust issue.
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So I'm gonna start on page 303.
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Permissiveness in the child-centered play therapy approach does not mean
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the acceptance of all behaviors.
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Therapy is a learning experience,
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and limits provide children with an opportunity to learn self-control,
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that they have choices,
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what making choices feels like
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and how responsibility feels.
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When limits should be set and are not.
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children are deprived of an opportunity
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to learn something important about themselves.
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I'm gonna pause there,
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y'all.
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Being too permissive is just as dangerous as being
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too rigid
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and setting too many limits.
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Let me read that again.
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When limits should be set and are not,
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children are deprived of an opportunity
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to learn something important about themselves.
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I know a lot of CCPTs are super nice
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and they try to be super tolerant and permissive.
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And they let children do things that require limits.
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So we need to know when a limit is needed and when it is needed and when it is not.
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Continuing in therapeutic limit setting,
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children are given the opportunity to choose.
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Therefore,
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they experience a life lesson in being
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responsible for themselves and their own well-being.
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The child-centered play therapists belief that
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children will choose positive cooperative behavior
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is a significant and impactful variable in the therapeutic process.
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I'm gonna read that again.
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Take notes if you're a note taker.
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The CCPT's belief
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that children will choose positive cooperative behavior.
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Do you believe that?
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Do you innately instinctively
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at the depth of who you are as a being do you believe
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The children will choose positive cooperative behavior.
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That's at the heart of what we do.
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We believe that children will choose positive cooperative behavior,
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and it's a significant and impactful variable in the therapeutic process.
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Here you go.
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children are more likely to comply with limits
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when they experience respect for themselves
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and acceptance for their feelings,
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both positive and negative.
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Therefore,
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the therapist focuses on the child's unexpressed need for defiance,
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for example,
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while continuing to express fundamental understanding,
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support,
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value of the child,
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and a genuine belief in the child.
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Limits in the playroom should be minimal and enforceable.
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children cannot learn about themselves and cannot adequately
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express themselves
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in the face of a multitude of limits.
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Unenforceable limits do great harm to the therapeutic
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relationship by interfering with the development of trust.
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The establishment of total limits rather than conditional
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limits rather than conditional limits is more effective.
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Total limits are less confusing to children and
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help the therapist to feel more secure.
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You may pinch me but you may not hurt me.
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In quotes,
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leaves the issue wide open as to how much pinching is hurtful.
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You may put a little water in the sand would likewise not be acceptable.
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How does a child know what is expected if the therapist says
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you probably shouldn't smear so much glue on Bobo?
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Conditional limits become the basis for arguments.
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A total limit would be I'm not for pinching.
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The child knows now exactly what is not permissible.
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Conditional limits.
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You can't kick the door hard
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can become the basis for arguments.
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What the therapist thinks is hard may not be perceived by the child as hard,
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so the child may attempt to convince the therapist.
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The therapist should never engage in an argument with a child.
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Did you
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Receive and
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Process that
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The therapist should never engage in an argument with a child.
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So when the kid says,
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oh well,
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I
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am gonna do this because this works this way,
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and we say,
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well,
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you actually need to do that,
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you're arguing.
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That's not part of the model.
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The therapist should never engage in an argument with a child.
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The best procedure
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is to simply restate the original limit
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and then reflect the child's feeling or desire,
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such as,
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quote,
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You would like to convince me that you didn't shoot the mirror,
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but the mirror is not for shooting,
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end quote.
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All right,
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now we're getting into the meat and potatoes,
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as my brother says.
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Limits should be stated in a calm,
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patient,
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matter of fact,
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and firm way.
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Calm,
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patient,
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matter of fact,
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and firm.
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Limits that are rushed or stated quickly
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reveal the therapist's anxiety,
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and here we go y'all,
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and lack of trust in the child.
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If the therapist's attitude really is one of trust
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and a belief that the child will respond responsibly.
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Then the therapist will respond accordingly with calmness.
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The fact of the matter is that if a child is standing 10 ft away from the therapist
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threatening to shoot the therapist with the dart gun,
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the therapist cannot move fast enough to get across the room
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and stop the child before the trigger is pulled.
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Therefore,
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the therapist may as well sit there with calmness
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and trust
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that if she responds appropriately,
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the child will respond responsibly.
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Y'all,
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come on.
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My son would say,
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preach.
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OK,
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I'm gonna read that part again
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because this is a whopper.
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This is a doozy for all my international people.
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It means it's a big thing,
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OK?
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The matter
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of fact is that if a child is standing 10 ft away
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from the therapist threatening to shoot the therapist with the dart gun,
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the therapist cannot move fast enough
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to get across the room and stop the child before the trigger is pulled.
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Therefore,
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the
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therapist may as well sit there with calmness
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and trust
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that if she responds appropriately,
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the child will respond responsibly.
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If the therapist were to jump out of her chair or attempt to grab the gun,
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her behavior would communicate a message of I don't trust you.
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The child is then left to carry out the original intent
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because,
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quote,
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she really expects me to,
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end quote.
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If you didn't just get a pit in your stomach,
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you either weren't listening
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or I don't think you really understand this model.
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Because
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if we recognize.
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That
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the way that we handle
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behavior,
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the way that we set limits,
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and the way at the basis of everything
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we trust children.
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Is going to influence a child's reaction and behavior in the playroom,
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we would take things with so much more caution
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and so much more gravity,
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and we would be so much more careful.
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You know what he's describing there?
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The self-fulfilling prophecy.
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And we would never think that about ourselves.
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We would never say,
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oh,
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I expected a kid's gonna shoot me in the face,
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and so,
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you know,
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we would never say that.
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But that's exactly where we're communicating.
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If we do not respond calmly
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and appropriately,
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we are essentially saying I don't trust you
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and therefore the kid says,
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oh well then I should shoot you because you expect me to anyway.
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Holy Moses,
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I mean,
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that's gonna take a week to digest.
15:18
Let me continue.
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Such moments of intense interaction
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can be anxiety provoking for the therapist
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and quickly reveal deeper attitudes,
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beliefs,
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and motivation.
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Inexperienced play therapists may experience some anxiety
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or perhaps even a bit of rejection of a child
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who persists in pushing the limit,
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threatening to do what necessitated the limit,
15:41
or actually breaking the limit.
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All right,
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here's the coup de grace.
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There is only one way
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the therapist can learn
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that children really can be trusted in such situations,
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and that is to weather the storm.
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And in the process discover children really can and will
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control their behavior if responded to appropriately.
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There is only one way.
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That we can learn that children really can be trusted
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in such situations and it is to weather the storm.
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You wanna know what that means?
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Just
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sit there.
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And trust the kid.
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And wait it out.
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Now,
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I'm not saying don't set a limit if a limit is needed.
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But even once a limit has been set or it hasn't been set,
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Can you sit there calmly and appropriately trusting the child
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and assuming good?
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I say that all the time in coaching,
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assume good.
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Trust the child
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and assume good.
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And wait it out.
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And guess what you will discover
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that children really can and will
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control their behavior if responded to appropriately.
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That right there
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should be.
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The heart of everything that we do
17:08
in a session.
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We trust that children can and will
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fill in the blank.
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You can and will
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self regulate.
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You can and will
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think more highly about yourself.
17:23
You can and will think more highly about yourself.
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You can and will control that impulse.
17:26
You can and will conquer that fear.
17:28
You can and will.
17:29
I mean,
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the list goes on and on and on.
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Guess what it all implies?
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You trust the kid.
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And let me work this backwards.
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What
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would happen?
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If you just decided right now,
17:42
listening to this,
17:44
with the pit in your stomach,
17:46
holy crap,
17:47
have I been getting in the way of a child
17:48
being able to comply with limits because I am constantly,
17:51
silently,
17:52
nonverbally communicating to the kid that I actually don't trust them.
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If that's you
17:58
and you're going,
17:59
I'm not doing that anymore.
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What's the worst case scenario that can happen?
18:05
Let's say
18:06
from every second forward,
18:08
you go,
18:08
I'm just choosing to trust the child.
18:11
Not because it's easy,
18:12
not because it's easy,
18:12
not because it's inherent,
18:13
but because it's a willful choice that I make.
18:15
Y'all,
18:15
y'all know how often we make willful choices in CCPT?
18:20
These are willful decisions that we make.
18:22
I am choosing to trust the child.
18:25
Love is a verb.
18:27
Trust is a verb.
18:29
You choose to do them.
18:31
It's not because it's just like
18:33
an innate tendency that we have.
18:36
They are very
18:37
hard to love people.
18:39
They are very hard to trust people.
18:41
And we choose to anyway.
18:44
So you make the decision to go all in on trust and you say,
18:47
I'm going to trust kids.
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I'm going to trust kids.
18:48
I'm going to assume good
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and I'm going to believe that they can and will.
18:53
What is worst case scenario?
18:56
You get shot with a dart
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Cause you trusted that they weren't gonna shoot you and they did shoot you.
19:01
That's what you have a pad folio for.
19:04
You hold it up and block your face and you move on.
19:07
What's the worst that can happen?
19:08
You get sand dumped in your hair?
19:10
Been there,
19:10
done that.
19:11
You go home and wash it.
19:12
It's just like you went to the beach.
19:13
It's actually quite exfoliating for your scalp actually.
19:15
There's there's always a silver lining.
19:18
You have paint dumped on the floor.
19:20
You just get rid of the liquid paint in your room.
19:23
Like shame on you for having liquid paint in the first place.
19:25
I mean,
19:25
y'all,
19:26
it's not that catastrophic if you trust a kid.
19:29
And
19:30
they're still not quite
19:31
able
19:32
to control themselves.
19:34
It's not the end of the world.
19:36
You're gonna be fine,
19:37
I promise.
19:39
I've had my tooth go through my lip
19:42
from a plastic nunchuck
19:43
that got swung at my face,
19:45
and I'm gushing blood
19:47
and guess what?
19:49
I'm here to tell the story.
19:51
I mean,
19:51
honestly,
19:51
you want to know what I say to myself and like my family all the time,
19:54
but did you die?
19:56
Like
19:56
you're fine.
19:58
Eric hates it,
19:58
by the way.
19:59
He's so risk averse and he thinks that I use that as like a crutch to do
20:03
scary,
20:03
stupid,
20:04
risky things.
20:05
But I'm like,
20:05
but I'm fine.
20:06
I didn't die.
20:07
And he's like,
20:07
uh,
20:07
yeah,
20:08
you could have.
20:08
Anyway,
20:09
not really,
20:09
but you know what I mean.
20:11
He's very risk averse.
20:12
I'm very not,
20:12
so never the twain shall meet.
20:14
The point is,
20:15
y'all,
20:15
it's not gonna be your end
20:18
if you trust a kid
20:20
and they're not quite able to control themselves yet.
20:24
But I guarantee you if you trust them and they don't control themselves.
20:28
And you trust them anyway?
20:30
They're gonna learn to control themselves.
20:32
That's the beauty of the model.
20:35
So,
20:36
in light of Laura's email and in light of Landreth's writing,
20:41
I certainly hope
20:43
that we are challenged and compelled.
20:46
To say,
20:47
I'm going to trust children no matter what because that's at the heart of CCPT.
20:52
Who do you believe that children are?
20:56
Do you believe that
20:58
They're able
20:59
And willing and can
21:02
heal and change,
21:03
then you trust them to do so.
21:06
There's so much peace that's found in that decision right there.
21:10
It alleviates almost every problem that you will have in the playroom.
21:14
Every doubt you'll have,
21:15
every frustration you'll have,
21:17
every second guessing that you've ever experienced,
21:19
I guarantee you you can trace it back to a trust issue.
21:24
Choose to trust.
21:25
It's going to revolutionize everything.
21:28
And when
21:29
things get revolutionized in a good way,
21:31
kids are better for it,
21:33
and our field is better for it.
21:35
So I love y'all.
21:37
Thank you for hanging out with me this week.
21:38
Email me if you want brenna@thekidcounselor.com.
21:41
We'll talk again soon.
21:42
Bye.
21:43
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
21:46
Brenna Hicks.
21:47
For more episodes and resources,
21:49
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.