Latest / Conservation Stories / Securing Farm Labor: Legal Pathways and Lasting Impact with Joe Martinez

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Securing Farm Labor: Legal Pathways and Lasting Impact with Joe Martinez · Conservation Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:05
  Speaker B: This is Tillery Timmons Sims, and I'm excited that you are back again to join us for another episode of Conservation Stories. Conservation Stories is a podcast that's brought to you by the Sand Hill Area Research Association. Sarah. And as you all know, if you've listened for a while, we love to just bring your attention to interesting people, people that are providing services that are needed across agricultural rural America, and particularly on the high plains of Texas into eastern New Mexico. So that is where we live and what we like to highlight. But today I'm bringing to you someone that is not here from our area, but he does a very impactful thing. Joe Martinez. He works for. He works bringing in farm laborers legally into the United States. And this is, of course, a topic of conversation right now that's going on. And just even more increasingly, farmers have been moving towards finding ways to get more consistent farm labor. So this is an expertise that Joe has. And so he and I connected recently, and I asked him if he would be willing to do podcasts. So, Joe, thanks for being here.
• 1:21
  Speaker A: No, well, Tillery, thank you for giving me some time. Appreciate you meeting with me. And yeah, you know, just like you shared, even though it may not be in the high plains of Texas, I did was born and raised in Texas and Wharton and then grew up in San Antonio and so spent most of my childhood there. But I do get to visit back and forth. My parents lived in Houston and have family down in Laredo. But you're right, what you said is I focus on providing agricultural labor to farms across the US and like you said, you know, I think we've all known that agriculture is a very relational industry. You know, we know each other. We get to meet with folks. You work with people every day. You're working with animals or you're working with commodities and plants. And so something that folks know each other very well and intimately. And due to that, there's always existed a way to find labor. People have said, hey, I know folks that are looking for a job. They can come over here and fulfill the need. And I think as we started to recognize, I think part of the work that led me to this is I was figuring out, how is it that folks are provided labor? How does the flow of migration work? And in recognizing back in 2010, the US agricultural industry had roughly 2.1 million workers. And it was estimated that out of those 2.1 million workers, roughly 1.6 million of those workers were undocumented. So it's an industry, right, that's heavily predicated on folks that are looking for a need. Sometimes not. It's temporary, sometimes it's a little longer lasting. Folks tend to migrate on where the need is, right, with the seasons and the crop rotation. And so what we've noticed over the last decade, right, with the push of E VERIFY and now with this current administration and the immigration raids that are happening, is there's a need for a viable pathway way to be able to fulfill your labor needs. And in recognizing that this process is now being pushed to being formalized. And again, there's a couple factors here, right? It's not just simply that, oh, we want to, you know, professionalize and formalize the industry. It's that costs are going up, it's more expensive to be able to maintain your agricultural production. You can't afford to just have anyone show up on your farm because the time that it takes to train someone and ensure that they're going to be there. And then on top of that, if that works, course isn't retainable and is going to lead when another opportunity comes, then it makes it very difficult for agricultural employers, farmers to be able to plan and know what they can depend on. And so that's really the crux of the focus of our services is how can we be able to provide an affordable labor force that comes in year in, year out that, you know, is going to be dedicated to your operations and understanding the culture and the needs that you have and that ultimately is going to partner with you and being able to fulfill your business relationships and at the same time protect your farm with food safety illnesses, packaging and all the rest come with that. So, you know, before I go more in depth, you know, that's kind of the work that I've been focused at and that we've been doing here at Sierra though over the last decade.
• 4:27
  Speaker B: So tell us about, tell us about the company, the. The name of your company and, and how it is set up.
• 4:34
  Speaker A: So we're a nonprofit organization. So we got started, like I said, back in 2010. I kind of got into agriculture straight out of college, kind of trying to figure out, you know, really focusing on the labor force. How can we provide an added value to folks. One of the things that we all recognize is that the visas that I focus on, on providing, which are H2A, H2B TN visas. And just to give a little background here, those are visas that are created by the Department of Labor.
• 5:00
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 5:01
  Speaker A: And the H2A visa is specifically created to fulfill agricultural labor needs. So you, as a farmer, if you ever needed Folks and you're saying, hey, I'm really having a hard time, I can't find anyone to come. I don't. And usually the formal process is that you may have like a, a farm manager farm and you might ask them, hey, do you know where there's some folks? And they're having a hard time. Then you go and seek out a third party that can help you and find those folks. And what we do is we work with you to be able to file petition with the state, the Department of Labor and with USCIS or immigration Services. And all that is happening in conjunction while we go down to Mexico or Guatemala and recruit folks there. And then we make sure that we identify candidates, we train them and their communities of origin, ensuring that they're going to be folks that are going to come to work professionally with you understand, the commodity or the labor, and that in turn you feel confident that they're going to be a good fit. And so while all this whole process that can roughly take anywhere from 90 to 120 days is kind of the process that we kind of take care of just to give you a little background, this program was started in the mid-80s. And so the H2A program has not been reformed since then. And so when it was created, it was kind of created to be your last ditch effort to fulfill your labor needs.
• 6:27
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 6:28
  Speaker A: And I think what we've seen over the last 40 years is that it's now becoming one of the only viable ways to maintain your labor force. You know, I always ask, like, what's been the reality for a lot of folks this year? You know, and I've received a lot of calls from folks, over a couple dozen this year. They're saying, look, I haven't ever done the program, but looking at the reality for next year and what's to come, I think I need to start to consider it.
• 6:53
  Speaker B: Are you seeing a lot of raids? I mean, I keep hearing about them, but I, I don't know, you know, of any firsthand.
• 7:02
  Speaker A: A lot of the clients that we work with that use the H2A have not been impacted.
• 7:06
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 7:06
  Speaker A: And I think that makes sense, right? They're going to say, why are we going to go to a farm? Now I am aware of a few farms down in California, in Southern California, close to the LA area, in Oxnard and Camarillo, where yes, the raids did happen there. And I think that there's been a concerted effort in trying to kind of start in areas I think that have been felt as being the most Contentious towards the administration. Right. Because, you know, I just moved to California in February. Before that, I lived in Washington state as well and up there too. You know, I think folks felt like there hasn't been that big of a movement. And so I feel like what we've seen in California has been a lot more of kind of these presentations of like, hey, this is what's going to happen. This is what could happen if you're not trying to use the right avenue avenues.
• 7:58
  Speaker B: Okay, interesting. Yeah, that. That's kind of what, you know, it's often things are exaggerated one way or the other, you know, and so I've wondered not. I mean, I'm enough in the ag industry to feel like I would if, if they were happening to the rate that people are expressing this concern about them, that I would probably be hearing more, more stories that are more direct, you know what I mean? Like instead of just rumors of them. Yeah.
• 8:30
  Speaker A: And I think what the real impact that I think is not necessarily that these raids are happening so rapidly. Right. I mean in reality they just don't have that budget, you know, to do that. And so. But I. What I think it has caused amongst some of the labor force that is undocumented, some fear.
• 8:46
  Speaker B: Sure. Yeah, that's probably the biggest impact.
• 8:50
  Speaker A: Sure, that's exactly it. And I think that's what I'm hearing from folks. Like, it's not necessarily that we've had issues is that folks have been nervous. Is it going to come here? Is it not? And quite frankly, it's tough to give assurances around that. And so I think that's where I've been led to explore what this program would look like for a lot of folks.
• 9:09
  Speaker B: What I've seen here, we don't, we don't have, we do have some crops that require a lot of labor. Pumpkins and watermelons are the two that come to mind right off the bat. But a lot of, A lot of what we need is, you know, people that are here year round that are more skilled, that know how to drive a tractor or that you can trust to like say, hey, take out that into the shop and repair, you know, XYZ or whatever, you know, so. And those were. Have been traditionally, like a lot of times it'd be the same family, you know, your family is connected to another family and that those families have worked together, you know, sometimes multi generation, you know. And so some of that is, is starting to go away. And I think that's a sign of progress on, on the part of those families. They've been here long enough that they, they're, you know, because it's generally those first immigrant generations or, you know, it's migrants or the very poor that are taking those jobs. And so as they begin to rise out of poverty and generations become, you know, education becomes available to them. So then we're looking to shift of somebody else to come in and fill those positions. So I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. I think it's a sign that, that we're people are progressing and people are able to take better, better jobs that aren't as, you know, arduous. And so I, I'm wondering what that looks like for you. So as say I'm a cotton farmer and I need somebody that's going to be, you know, full time labor, you know, and I want to kind of build that relationship with them. Is that possible through the type of work visas that you, that you people acquire?
• 10:59
  Speaker A: No, that's a great question, Hillary. And I myself being son of immigrants, right, it's like, yeah, I, you know, you want to get educated. And most, and this is the thing, right, Just to touch a little bit on this is most folks think, oh well, you want to improve and get out of where you started, right. And kind of do more that you can. And you know, I think the reality here is that, that you're right, that is a sign of progress. That's the American dream for most folks, you know, more opportunity. And I think that that's what we want to be able to continuously provide. And I think as we move into stricter immigration policies, I think those funnels of labor and formal process of labor start to become much more stringent and difficult to come by. Right. And so we're traditionally maybe a cotton farmer, say, hey, yeah, come over here, we're going to help your family out. If you're willing to work here, we'll have you. And now we got to be a little more careful, right? We don't want that employer getting in trouble. We don't want them having any issues or penalties. And so what our visa does provide is the ability to have someone who's going to come in year in and year out dedicated to your operation. And what we aim to do is facilitate a relationship. So when we go down to Mexico or Guatemala or Honduras and identify these folks, what we really do is we go through a training process. What's the visa, who's the company, who's the, what's the relationship you're building? And then we finish with this one Segment called a life plan. And so what we see there is, you know, it's tough for me to say that the H2AB is considered a non skilled labor force. We all know that farmers cannot afford to have anyone that doesn't know.
• 12:34
  Speaker B: Yes, right.
• 12:36
  Speaker A: That's right. And so what we really provide are folks that understand that and that are ready to work and be professionals. And what we're trying to show folks is that workers that are recruited are professionalized workforce and they could come. And so we actually have examples of, you know, farm workers that we've recruited from Mexico that have been working with the same company now for eight years. Not only have they been able to grow with the company, they now become farm managers, you know, you know, they become foremans. They're able to move into others to become tractor drivers, mechanics, like you said. And the only way you get that is when you have a workforce that's retainable, that's able to learn, learn your culture, learn your processes, and then say, hey, I see myself part of that. And that's what we're looking to facilitate. And I feel like, you know, a lot of folks did have that, like you said, generational families that have been with them. And so it's really hard to see kind of the fear that exists right now for folks to no longer show up. And I think that it's impacted those farmers, it's impacted those families. And ultimately, I think the silver lining for us is if we, we know that is the reality. Well, what is a solution forward for folks, right, to be able to maintain our labor force here in agriculture, out.
• 13:50
  Speaker B: Here on the Texas plains, water is everything. And there's a resource that's as vital as it is fragile. Our Playa Lakes. These lakes are nature's reservoir, catching rainwater to recharge our aquifer and provide lifelines for wildlife. But now they need our help. In collaboration with the Texas Playa Lakes Conservation Initiative and the Cargill Global Water Challenge, Sarah has started the Our Legacy Is Tomorrow's Water initiative to inspire and work with landowners to restore and protect our Playa lakes. Each Playa we save helps secure a sustainable water future for the generations that will be coming after us. Whether it's improving soil health, restoring habitats, or recharging groundwater, we are committed to to making a difference. Together, we can build a legacy that we can all be proud of. To learn how you can join in, visit the Playa Lakes Restoration Initiative page on the SARA website. Let's keep Texas water flowing strong for the future. Visit sara-conservation.com Give us a little bit of understanding about what is H2A? What's H2B? Is that what you said? And then the TN visas, like, what are these? What are these specifically? What are the requirements for those? Or the difference. What's the difference between those three?
• 15:16
  Speaker A: Yeah. So first of all, the H2A visa is to fulfill agricultural needs. So the A is agriculture. And that means anything that's located on a farm. So if it's harvesting, cleaning, prepping, packaging, and even tractor driving, truck driving, all of that. If it is located on a farm location, all of that falls under the H2A visa. And there's no cap on that visa. So we can bring in as many folks as we want to fulfill that liberty.
• 15:48
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 15:49
  Speaker A: Whereas with H2B does have a cap. Oh, yeah. When. And with H2B, it's only 88,000 visas a year. Now, there's a caveat here. If, say, an H2B tends to be like, landscaping, construction, hospitality, transportation, you can get, you know, like mechanics, more specific trades. And you're saying, hey, I need a driver, a tractor driver. But he's not only going to be on the farm, he's going to be driving across, taking the tractor to different places. Then that. That'd be an H2B visa. He's not going to be focused on farm.
• 16:22
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 16:23
  Speaker A: But HGB will kind of be all of the other trades that you would need. And then the TN visa is specifically for a specific trade or profession, like a veterinarian. So say you're a cattle farmer and you need veterinarians, or maybe you need a specific type of engineer technician. Those are the type of visas where we can go down to Mexico, identify these folks and that they can come. And these are all temporary visas that last anywhere from two to 10 months. But if you have folks can come back year after year, folks can also go to a different farm and they can rotate farms for up to three years before needing to come back to Mexico or their country of origin.
• 17:05
  Speaker B: So it really. It's actually really unique in that. Because what I see in a cultural shift is that, you know, people do want to come to the United States, but we're not the only land of opportunity. In a lot of places, they are modernizing, and there's. There's some, in some cases, better opportunities or they can. We can help provide better opportunities where they are from so that, you know, maybe we don't have the rate of migration. We don't have that people are not driven out of their countries of Origin to go somewhere else, you know, and so that, to me, that's a great. This type of visa is a great way for them to stay connected to their own culture and not have to have that loss.
• 17:59
  Speaker A: That's exactly it, Tillery. And I think one thing to highlight here, right? I think as folks that have been in agriculture, whether it be cotton, whether it be cattle, whether it be watermelons, we're proud to either feed the world, clothe the world, or, you know, or provide the meat for the world and all those things. And I think to your point, the workforce that's coming here, like you said, things are expensive now, it is not easy to live here like it was. Right. We've seen a huge shift from the 50s, the 80s to the 2000s to now 2025. Yeah, and, and I think you're right. When folks come here to work on a temporary visa, they end up going back home. And in Mexico, that can be anywhere from 8 to 10 times more money than they would make in Mexico. If it's in Guatemala, it's anywhere from 11 to 13 times more. So they. That money goes much further and that investment goes much further. And so one of the things that I also like to highlight to folks, a lot of folks that ended up here, right, you know, in an informal way, undocumented, wasn't necessarily intentional. They were looking for an opportunity and if they could have gone back, they would have been happy to. And so what we find is that a lot of folks are happy to come and do the work, go back home. And what we actually document is the impact that as a farmer, not only are you feeding the world, not only are you maybe clothing the world through cotton or doing X amount of things through your businesses in the supply chain, but you're also improving these rural communities where these workers.
• 19:30
  Speaker B: What a great point.
• 19:32
  Speaker A: And we're able to demonstrate how. Just say you're an employer who has watermelons and you're selling your watermelons to H E B, to Costco, to Walmart, and you're feeding all those folks that are purchasing it. But not just that. Those folks that are purchasing those watermelons should know, hey, I'm making these rural communities in Mexico better and Guatemala better. I'm actually helping people be able to live because we have a workforce that's able to actually invest that money. And then we show you that impact. For instance, we've had groups of workers go back to their home and buy their own plot of land and learn how to start to make their own Business. Right. And you see this entrepreneurial spirit that is learned from coming to experience agriculture in the U.S. they get this drip irrigation, these new ways of doing work that they hadn't been exposed to, or they go back and they say, hey, there's 10 of us. We're putting together, we're going to build a computer lab so that our kids can have access to more opportunity, just like we were talking about with some of these immigrant families here in the States. And those opportunities are now starting to be provided back home. And I think this infusion of technology has really given folks access to kind of figure out what is possible. And so with that, I think that's also what's pushing, I think, for us to have a more formal process now that we do have ways to communicate more effectively. I think it's almost near impossible for you to meet any farm worker or farmer who doesn't have a smartphone these days. Now, whether we want to use it is another thing. Right. But it's there. Right. And starting to become something that we all use. And so it's like, how do we use those tools? The new reality that we're seeing with our workforce to make a solution that's a win win for everyone. And that at the end of the day, we can continue to feel not only great about American agriculture, but also the impacts that it's having above and beyond on feeding this world, ensuring our food safety, but also helping the world become a better place.
• 21:27
  Speaker B: That is, that's just so. It's very inspiring. I really love that because I feel like part of the solution to all the migration that we've seen is to help people be able to live at home. So what happens to families? So dad or mom comes for 10 months and families stay home.
• 21:55
  Speaker A: Yeah. And so traditionally, this is. And this is the advantage of what we provide is that these families know where their family members are going. You know, in most cases, folks are like, look, I'm gonna go find a job and I'll let you know what happens. Right. And I'll buy a phone once I get situated over there. And so what our process allows is for the family to know exactly what's happening, be able to maintain a channel of communication. And then we also partner with human rights organizations, NGOs, nonprofits, church organizations down in Mexico that work with the family to receive that money, create a savings account, figure out how to reinvest that. And so that. And this is the other part. Right? These are folks that want to come back to their families.
• 22:40
  Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. They're anchored. Yeah, yeah.
• 22:43
  Speaker A: And that anchoring, I think, is what really shows how this program can be prosperous for everyone all.
• 22:50
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 22:50
  Speaker A: And that's kind of the thought. And, and like, you know, above and like, let's be honest, right. A lot of folks say, well, this is an expensive program. How do we do it? And I think that's one of the issues for us is that when you start to do it in a responsible manner, the responsible recruitment way, which is what we offer, you start to get workers that come back year after year and that actually learn how to be more productive. They'll say, hey, I'm going to take the steps to protect our crop or our product, make sure that it lasts longer on the store shelves, ensuring. Because, you know, the second you take a melon off the vine, it starts to ripen. And you know, especially in this Texas heat, New Mexico, Louisiana heat, you better put that on that truck and get it moving before it starts to ripen too long, because then you're going to have something brought on the store shelf. And having workers understand that they start to be proactive. And so we've seen instances with workers becoming more, more productive, 2 to 7%.
• 23:45
  Speaker B: Year after year and 2 if. When it. When they want to be able to continue to come back. So they have a vested interest in that. That farm doing well.
• 23:57
  Speaker A: That's right. And so they start to see themselves as partners and wanting to improve. So, for instance, there was an apple farmer I was working with up here in Washington state, and they worked seven days a week. And you know, a lot of farm operations are like, we don't have the break, you know, and especially when the holiday seasons come, no purchase stores, we need to hurry, we need to fill these, we need to get going. And so what we did is we created a module on the supply chain to help these workers understand when the pressure comes. When these, There's a retailer, there's a business, there might be a brand that is waiting for you to ship that product. And the second we're late, when we're delayed, puts in jeopardy our opportunity to get that contract again. And it's that little clicking for workers where workers are like, oh, this is why we need to push it right now. It's not because they're trying to be mean and just, you know, drive us hard. And it's that little bits of information help facilitate where workers are like, no, everyone, it's time to bust your tail. We want to make this because we want them to know that we're here and this workforce can always fulfill those needs.
• 25:05
  Speaker B: So fascinating. So it's not just about skilled labor. It's about, it's about an educated labor force that understands. Wow, that's such a unique, that is, that's really a unique thing that you're doing there.
• 25:20
  Speaker A: Well, until quite frankly, if you as an employer are going to invest in this, I want to give you the best possible solution. And I think what's existed in the past was it's kind of we're slowly moving into this. You know, retailers now need more due diligence. They need to ensure that things are done well. You know, with this administration, he's saying, hey, I'm not going to get in the way of business. You guys know how to manage your business. And so I think there's been a lot of push down, say hey, we, we're going to do this internally. We want to do things right. We want to be able to sell globally. Right. And to sell in the global markets, you need to be in compliance. And I think that's what we afford.
• 25:57
  Speaker B: Is there any potential for there to be collaboration across the. Because you know, what I see happen so often is that the corporation, I mean, I know a watermelon farmer who's like if, if, I mean Walmart will turn away a semi if there's a fly in it of watermelons, you know, and so they, or you know, you're going to take what I'm going to. Well, I know we contracted at X per pound, but things have changed. And if you don't take 25 cents less, then we're just not going to buy it at all, you know. And so what I'm wondering is are there, are there corporations that are more than about just the profit but like, or maybe having this push from their investors to that they would actually be able to invest in, offset some of that cost that farmers. Because that's the other thing we're going to go into is, you know, what, why, what would prevent people so that's right. You know, are you seeing some corporations saying, hey, we know that labor is an issue. We got to have a guaranteed supply, we're going to help cover some of that cost.
• 27:13
  Speaker A: That's exactly it. I think that's been the challenge. Right. What are the market signals that say, hey, if I make this investment, I'm not shooting myself in the foot as an employer, as a grower. And so I've actually been working with Walmart, Costco, Kroger, McDonald's companies and the International Fresh Produce Association. They came out with this thing called the ethical charter in 2018. And this was one of exactly what you just said. Oh, we want to improve. It's not just about profits. It's also about land conservation, it's about workforce conservation, about treating folks making sure everything's done with dignity. And that's improving things.
• 27:53
  Speaker B: Right.
• 27:54
  Speaker A: And so in 2018, they spent a few years, obviously Covid hit that slowed everything down. And in 28, like about 2023, they came out with this ethical charter implementation platform. And so there's now a way where vendors, growers can sign up onto this platform and say the things that they are doing. And the intention here is that let's just say, right, there is a fly and this, you know, in the hall, in the truck and they cancel it. One of the things or the 25 cent bargaining, that shift in negotiation hopefully starts to change now because I have an added value for you as a vendor. I not only am doing my food safety compliance, I also now am complying with my labor force and recruitment. I'm complying with my environmental standards and I'm able to prove it. And I think, think that in turn is supposed to build a stronger business relationship where vendors or I would say retailers can say, hey, I can trust this company.
• 28:50
  Speaker B: Well, and not only that means so not only are retailers in, in a scenario when they're buying produce from a grower that's partnering with you, not only are they getting, you know, that produce that's going to be more, it's going to be guaranteed to get that to them in a timely fashion because they've got this work workforce, but also they're investing in another country. They're investing in the lives and the livelihoods of, of the families that are left behind and in that community. So it's, it's way good story for them. I mean, they're getting, they're not just getting their produce, they're actually getting a marketing story. And, and what their, if their investors are still looking at what they would call it, esg, those, you know, social, like, how are we rated on that? How are we doing about, I would say in advancing human flourishing.
• 29:46
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 29:46
  Speaker B: If we're, if they're still getting rated on that and their investors care, which most large corporations, they, that is something that they're interested in. They know they're going to be held accountable. Man, they're getting way more than just a product.
• 29:58
  Speaker A: No. And you're right there, Hillary. So like, just to give you a little background, right, in 2010, the Guardian came Out with an article about the shrimp industry industry and, and the rampant slave trade that exists in that. Right. And because there's folks that come from Myanmar, Thailand that go on to boats, their passports are confiscated and that the. And that these shipping freights are filled with workers in this. On this reality. And then I think in 2014, there was also an article out of the LA Times with the tomato industry in Northern Mexico. And so there's been these investigations of like, there's obviously labor issues. Right. And so this has put the pressure on retailers to prove that they're doing more. And I think that that's exactly to your point. Right. I've been working over the last decade and a half engaging with them the same. And when I first started around 2012, 14, they were like, folks, marketing folks just don't want to know who's touching their food. Right. Like the marketing folks said, we don't want to promote folks touching your food. You don't want to go to the grocery store and think about all the hands that have touched your food. But we know it took folks to harvest that food. We are educated enough to know, the consumer knows. And so I think that we've seen a shift over now into the 2020s. Let's highlight the people that are actually harvesting this food. So it has spread an opportunity, I think, like you said, for marketing for impact to demonstrate that we're all much more connected in this world than we like to think about and that all those little connections do have an impact. And so I think part of the work for us is how do we help create that story, show you the positive impacts and when things are done right, responsibly, in compliance with communities of origin as well as destination with ag, you actually have a flourishing ground here for everyone to be able to benefit. And I think those stories of impact are going to be immense and they're great. We're able to demonstrate that after a decade of doing this work, it did take us some years to be able to say, hey, is this economically feasible? Can it be? And yeah, I think we've demonstrated that we can do this at a very well market rate that's competitive with others and incorporate technology that helps even streamline it further.
• 32:14
  Speaker B: Today's episode is brought to you by Evan Stone with Clear Rock Farm and Ranch, part of the Clear Rock Realty Group in Lubbock, Texas. Evan understands West Texas land, agriculture and what it takes to buy and sell farms and ranches in our unique region. If you're ready to make your next Move Trust someone who knows the lay of the land. Visit Eben@clearrockrealty.com serving Lubbock and the surrounding communities, Clear Rock Farms and Ranch, your partner on the plains. I really, I mean, really what's happening is by taking away, by putting this down, sphere of raids into, into agriculture now you have, it's pushing, it's pushing farmers to go a legal route and that's going to increase their cost. But it's, it really, you know, there's really not a lot that, that can be done to avoid that. It's going to be another increased cost of production. But by using your company and what you're doing, you, you could possibly also be increasing your profits at the end to offset that. And it sounds like to me that's kind of what your, your thinking is too, is like, how do we collaborate with these companies, these larger companies? And to say, you know, here's what our farmers, here's what, here's what our farmers are doing when you, when you buy that tomato from them, here's what you're doing, here's the impact. And so that creates, you've, you've created. Now basically what you've done is you've created another profit stream, revenue stream for the farm.
• 34:07
  Speaker A: And that's exactly it. And I think like you said, right, a lot of the times the farmers stuck to whatever the retailer said. And it's like, I'm gonna lower it. We got a huge supply now, so demand's down. That we're gonna, And I hear it all every year, right. And every commodity. And so I think that farmers also have the right to say, hey, I'm doing things the right way. They're not. How come I'm not being given a preference? How come I'm not. Instead of 20, give them minus 25 cents, you give me minus 10 cents. Because I'm helping your, your supply chain integrity, brand integrity and your continuity.
• 34:41
  Speaker B: Right, right. And I, you know, farmers rarely tell this, that part of the story of the being held hostage, you know, and I will tell you, like just the Texas grape industry here, where we are on the high plains, we, we grow about 85% of all Texas grapes. And when you have a permanent crop on your farm, it's not something that, oh, that's okay for me not to harvest it this year because I'm just going to replant next year. No, it's not happening. When every single vineyard has contracts that are dropped, completely dropped, that's a problem. And you don't, it's it creates all of a sudden the relationships are going to be damaged permanently. But also so is the crop.
• 35:42
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 35:43
  Speaker B: You know, and so, and so are farmers. And so you have. What is going to happen, you know, right now, you know, these businesses, Texas grapes are too expensive. I'm going to buy something, you know, cheap from California. Well, you think it's expensive now? Wait till, wait till half of our grape growers go out of business.
• 36:02
  Speaker A: That's exactly it. You know, and I think the reality of the ripple effects that that has on rural America and the communities and the jobs that that affords to folks. Right. And so I think more than ever. Right. My hope and intention would be that we look to improve these programs because I still think they're very heavily bureaucratic, a lot of red tape, which is what we want to facilitate. And at a minimum, if you are going to do this, let this be a worthwhile investment for you where it's like, not only are you paying this because you have to, but now you're doing it because there's a value add. That's what we want to demonstrate. Because there's other folks out there that are going to cut corners.
• 36:39
  Speaker B: Right.
• 36:39
  Speaker A: Be careful with that, you know.
• 36:41
  Speaker B: Right. Yeah. Well, and one of the things that's different about H2A is like, generally, you know, if migrant workers come in and they're undocumented, they're vulnerable and so they can be easily taken advantage of, you know, and so folks that are unscrupulous, you know, will underpay and, you know, not pay any attention to. I mean, it's like none of what you do is any of my business. Just show up for work and then I'm going to just pay you the minimum. And that can still happen. You know, there are people out there that do that. You know, with H2A, you're being held accountable for not just paying them. You also have to provide certain things for them to ensure their well being while they are under your care.
• 37:35
  Speaker A: That's right. So that goes along with the visa with H2 8, you do provide housing, transportation to do the job. Right. And so we help facilitate all of that. We help support in building all that, identifying housing, identifying transportation and making sure we're at a minimum working with your operations to figure out what is it that you need, what's the, what's the time frame and is it plausible for you to be able to enter into it. And so we try to make it as easy as possible for you to have ownership of the program and Be a part of it. And then with H2B, which tends to be trades that pay a little higher. That's what. And those, they're not required to provide housing. You know, the fact that you're going to be a tractor driver, a mechanic, you're going to be paying a little more. More. Therefore, the opportunity to kind of instill in the community. We still, we still asking Porsche support. And the same with TN Visas. Right. That tends to be more of a profession.
• 38:26
  Speaker B: People are getting paid enough to provide their own housing, but a lot of times when people are getting paid minimum wage or, you know, farm labor wages, they can't afford a house and a car and transportation. So, yeah, that's, that's really important. Well, and that to me is another opportunity there for, you know, organizations that. And for example, like, I know that there was a company in Europe that approached a peanut facility in Texas and wanted to work with them. Like, oh, we're going to do some kind of. We'll buy all peanuts from you, but we, in exchange, we want you to do something to give us the s. The social justice. Sorry, trying to figure out how to, how to explain this. So they wanted them to unionize their workers. And of course, that is not something in rural America. I mean, you just, you talk about not knowing your audience, you know, and plus also, like, what just, it just was so bizarre out there, you know, and, but my thinking was, hey, how can you go back to them and say that's, that's just not something that's even feasible. But I'll tell you something that is feasible is all these people, they need healthcare. So if you guys will invest in a clinic, then awesome, we'll go from there, you know, and so to me, it's like what they, what this company came and was asking for the person that they want to buy their peanuts from to take the hit, you know, to take a finance. You know what I'm saying? Like, we want you to take a risk of financial hit in order for us to have a story and then we'll buy all of your peanuts. But everybody knows well and good that, you know, yeah, until it's 25, you know, cents more than anywhere else, and then you're going to go somewhere else. We know what's going to happen.
• 40:32
  Speaker A: That's exactly it. And I think that's. That's it. Right? That's the ebb and flow of the, like you said, esg, right? Environmental sustainability and governance. Like, how do we, how do we manage these expectations? And not just that as an employer, like you said earlier. Right. It's the minimum wage. Yeah. And I think that that minimum wage is very impactful for a lot of these workers that do come through the program responsibly. And as a farmer, you have so much on your plate. So we do want to bring you a labor force that's packaged nicely, that's ready to engage and go, and so that you have other things to worry about. And I think that one of the realities is that we need to make things more cost effective for farmers if we want agriculture to continue to prosper in the United States.
• 41:14
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 41:15
  Speaker A: But you know, I'll say I'm excited at the fact that over the last decade and a half I've been able to think, create a solution that I think is real, it's viable, that folks are starting to see more and more of value throughout the whole supply chain. And I just appreciate you taking the time to reach out and share with me so that I can share a little more our story. And at the end of the day, we want to, we want to fulfill our dreams and everyone else does too. And so how can we support each other in doing that? Whether it's feeding America, clothing America, or providing the labor force that's necessary, we all have a part to play. And I think what our story and what circles work proves is that we all can do something that helps each other out and that actually turns out a win win for everyone.
• 41:58
  Speaker B: Well, and you know, I think that there's, you know, a certain level of prosperity or those that are, have experienced prosperity in the United States where, you know, we're still stuck in that, like it's too expensive to buy X milk or it's, you know, when, when, when we really actually do have the budget to afford those things. And, and to think about when we do, when we do make our purchases and we're considering the full impact of where those things came from, it's a way for us to also participate in human flourishing.
• 42:35
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 42:36
  Speaker B: You know, like it's a way for us to also give back. You know, we're giving back because maybe it is costing $0.05 more than the next box to it or the next fruit or what. You know what I mean? Maybe it is costing us a little bit more. But sharing that across the whole value stream to me is very important. That if we want, we want to not be complicit, you know, either. I mean, we want to be able to think that we don't know where it comes from when we very well, can figure out where it comes from. We very well can figure out what's happening to the people. And we know better, you know, and now that we know better, we could do better. Now, I do think that there are, there's certain, you know, demographic of people that they don't have that privilege. But for me, I do have that privilege, you know, and so I can make, you know, some choices based on those kind of things. And I think that's a way that our listeners can participate too, is, you know, find out, you know, hey, maybe it's not just about what was sprayed on it. Maybe it was about when it was sprayed and who was in the field in six hours afterwards. You know what I mean? Like, maybe that's more important than the fact that when you get, by the time you get it, whatever sprayed on it has, has had time to be evaporate and be gone, you know, but the worker was still exposed, you know, and I'm not saying that's happened. I know that's happening in other countries, not necessarily in the United States, you know, so there's other implications. But I, I'm grateful for what you're doing and super excited. I hope that we're going to leave all your contact information and I'd love to be able to, you know, do some links for you and stuff so that people can, can connect. We don't have a lot of, you know, the type of labor I think that you're necessarily. But we do have, we have, we have a lot of things going on around here that people may be able to benefit from. And I just, I appreciate it. I'm excited. I'm excited for people to know about the work you do. And like I said at the beginning, it's like you're not here, but it's impacted, impactful. It's really impactful all over the United States. So before we go, one more question, two more questions for you, actually. One is what are you seeing in way of potential reform and is there enough cooperation across the aisle to get some needed reform?
• 45:10
  Speaker A: You know, real quick to that question. You know, there's folks that are putting suggestions out there. Actually, representative in southern Texas that's kind of saying, hey, we'd like to see a new program. I do feel that there is agreement from both sides on a need for reform. There's been this thing called the Farm Worker Modernization act that's been in play for a number of years. Both sides agree to it. Right. It's just getting those votes in Congress, and I think that Continues to be somewhat of a challenge. But there's also been the thought of, should we streamline the process? Right. Make it all go through just one office instead of three. So there's a lot of idea. Yes. Right. When you hear that, you're like, that makes sense. Why wouldn't we do that?
• 45:52
  Speaker B: Right, right, right. In this administration, I think you could really get somewhere because there. That's something that's, you know, valuable. You know, that's a. Something that they value is. Is less bureaucracy. And so surely that could make some, you know, headway.
• 46:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. And. And quite frankly, it allows services such as myself that are business to business to flourish. Right. And I think. And it pushed the onus on each other for us to work to each other to create solutions. And, you know, I like the opportunities that are coming. And, and you got to prove it. You know, you got to show, hey, this business worth it. You know, it's not just something to do.
• 46:30
  Speaker B: Last question. Tell us about somebody that you think the audience should know about.
• 46:36
  Speaker A: You know, I'm. I'm going to share a story about this individual. He's our Mexico director, Axel Garcia. So he. He's someone that I met early on in my work. I spent a lot of time in Mexico interviewing families. You know, I interviewed over 600 families in 10 different states to figure out how did folks migrate and to get an understanding before I started this work in this company. And he was someone that I met who was creating protocols to protect folks that were trafficked. And he would create all of these protocols to be able to protect them and their families, to not be exposed again and re victimized. And I shared with him the work that I was doing, and he jumped at the opportunity and he now worked with me. He leads our Mexico team and he goes, one of the things that I love most about the work that we do is that I now can offer an alternative to folks and saying, don't fall prey to informal recruiters that a lot of times can be associated with organized crime cartels. And I always think of his story when I'm feeling the dumps. I'm dealing with the budget, I'm dealing with cash flow, I'm dealing with any issue. And I go, hey, what we're really doing here is offering an opportunity to improve the lives for folks that maybe didn't have the opportunities before. And that centers me and grounds me again. And I just remind the work that Excel's done to kind of help improve these rural communities down in Mexico how we can do this together. And I just think it's a wonderful story to hear about someone who's dedicated their life to trying to protect people and. And now no longer having to worry about just protecting them. Being able to offer a solution.
• 48:17
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 48:18
  Speaker A: And I think we all feel tied to that. We all want to be able to offer solutions. And I'm very proud and happy to have a strong relationship with him and, and for us to be connected in offering this solution to a lot of. Of folks today.
• 48:33
  Speaker B: That's great. That's a great story. Thank you so much, Joe, for being here and thank you for what you're doing.
• 48:39
  Speaker A: I appreciate it, Tillery and I appreciate it. And at a minimum, I love educating folks and get letting them know about this. I appreciate you taking the time and I hope you have a wonderful day. And thank you so much.
• 48:49
  Speaker B: Thanks. And thanks friends, for joining us. And this is really valuable information. If you eat food. I mean, it really is impactful to all of us and it's something that you need to be aware of. It's an issue that farms have been directly impacted by for, I mean, decades and decades. As long as we've been farming in the United States has been an issue. So it's something that I think we're coming to a good solution, moving towards a good solution. But once again, the, the impact on the farms will always be the cost. So I want wanted you to hear from Joe and I'm glad that you joined us. And we will be putting all the links up for you and I hope that you'll take some time to investigate. And if you're looking for laborers, get a hold of Joe. Thanks, friends. We'll see you next time.