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Growing Your Audience Through Podcasting with Jen Smith · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Today I'm excited to bring you a very fun and inspiring interview with my friend Jen Smith.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Jen is the co-host of the very successful Frugal Friends podcast, and she's also the author of several books, including the No Spend Challenge Guide, which has well over a thousand reviews on Amazon.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't know what that means, it basically means that the book has been really, really successful.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Jen also writes in her modern frugality blog.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I got to ask Jen all my questions about how she has used her podcast and books to make both of those things more successful.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, how she has really wisely and creatively cross-promoted her books and her podcasts to increase viewership and engagement and success with both of those things.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: We also got to talk about how she engages her audience with podcasting as well as the secrets behind her phenomenal podcast growth.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: So as you know, since you're listening to this episode, I very much love podcasting.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't currently have a podcast, I bet that you will be wanting to start one after you listen to Jen's passion for this medium and how it's impacted both her and her audience.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if you do have a podcast, this is really going to give you some great tips for audience engagement and for doing some creative things to grow your podcast audience.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: I know I am going to be going through this episode probably two or three more times, taking lots of notes and trying to take advantage of all the amazing wisdom that Jen shares.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: So with that said, let's get right to the conversation with the amazing Jen Smith.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Jen, it's a pleasure to have you on the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much for having me.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you're one of the guests, you're one of these types of guests where I feel like I have seven or eight things that I could talk to you about.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it was actually kind of hard in my mind to narrow down the topics that I wanted to focus on today because you're great at writing, you're great at indie publishing, you're great at podcasting, you're great at business, you're great at the money thing.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: So where do I how do I even start to nail this down?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you you keep me here.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: I've got 40 more minutes.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm here for you.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever we can fit in.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I thought we would start out at least with this topic of how you got into podcasting and how that has been so successful, successful for you because you have a large audience and you work with the podcast network, and which is a really cool thing in itself.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm always talking about why writers should have podcasts.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: So can you give us kind of the backstory behind how you created your show, Frugal Friends, and how you have grown that over the last few years?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I didn't want to start a podcast.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh back in probably January of 2018.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, my friend came to me and he was an audio um like engineer for bands, and he wanted to get into podcasts.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: And he's like, You should start a podcast with my wife so that I can edit it and I can build up a portfolio.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I am a writer, I write, and that's what I love.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't talk.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's I don't, I don't know how to do that.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, I'm I didn't even listen to podcasts.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I did have a good idea for a name because I love alliteration.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, if I did have a podcast, it'd be called Frugal Friends.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: And he just took that and he ran with it, kind of without permission.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because his wife and I were friends, but we were not good friends.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like it was more of like my husband and me hung out a lot with him and his wife, um, Jill, who's now my co-host.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so like we were couple friends.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: It was never just Jill and I.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so I didn't really, I wasn't interested in starting a podcast, but I was interested in helping uh my friend, you know, build a portfolio.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I had just uh in in February, shortly after that, I started a full-time writing position.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like, maybe with the full-time writing, I might get, you know, exhausted or burnt out.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe it would to have something else that's still in personal finance, but like another outlet would maybe be cool.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Now, what do you mean by a full-time writing position?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I got a job writing for a personal finance website.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I was a, which is not actually very common.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: Most websites only hire freelance.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: So it was a very rare thing to that is rare.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Right, yes, to get a full-time writing.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: And it was in-house, it wasn't even virtual.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: So it was a very like very rare um opportunity that I had to jump on.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so so I started that and started the podcast uh literally the next month.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I I had no idea the significance that this podcast would play in my life or how much I would enjoy it.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like it took all of my favorite parts of writing, which are really outlining and researching and explaining things in layman's terms.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it took all of those and took out all of the stuff that I didn't really like, which is correcting things after editors sent them back to me, or fluffing out articles to meet word counts.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I've never done that personally.
• 5:55
  unknown: Right.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm just kidding.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm being sarcastic.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: On the internet, yes.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, right.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: So it took out all the things that I didn't really like and left all the things I did, and I could do episodes on whatever I wanted.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like it was just so it ended up being so fun.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: And and Jill ended up becoming, has become one of my best friends.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: And we would have never formed this relationship without having to meet every week or every other week to do this podcast.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: And we've released, I think we just recorded our 240th episode.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we've never missed a week, and now we're at twice a week.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: That is so cool.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now I noticed on I'm not obsessed with numbers, but I do think numbers are a measure of some things.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: So numbers can be really important.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I hopped on right before this conversation, actually.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: I hopped on Apple Podcast and I wonder if I still have this pulled up here.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you are at 751 reviews, which is or ratings, I'm sorry, which is really, really significant.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's a large podcast.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: How did you grow your listener base in just four years to that number of listeners?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's really, really big.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it started with me taking all of my friends' phones and giving our us five-star reviews from everybody's account.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's how we got our first 20 reviews.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like in your series.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I am dead serious.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm dead serious.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: I did that.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, from there, uh, I really focused on solving problems.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's the type of writer that I am.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: I don't necessarily write for myself or like I don't feel like I would ever write a memoir.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: I write to solve people's problems.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: If I have experience in something that could help somebody else get through it with more ease or fewer road bumps, that's why I write.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: That that's why, and so that became what I wanted to do with podcasting.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I took my um SEO background as a um search engine optimization expert, and I just transferred that to Apple Podcasts and said, okay, what are the top things people are searching for on Google?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: And how can I, and I'll just make a podcast episode for each one.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and so that's really how we started.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we also wanted to have like a unique uh format.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: So instead of just doing an interview every week, which really took the control of that, like optimizing for search, um, took that control out of our hands.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: We only do an interview every third episode.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think we started interviews until like nine episodes in.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: So we have, we'll have, we love our um interviews.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: We love connecting with other people.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's another like very underrated uh thing when it comes to podcasting is that now all these guests that we've had on our show, now I can go ask them if I can be on their show whenever I'm promoting something, like a book or whatnot.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so having having these guests on is definitely great networking.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: But I think in the early days, having that um optimizing for search really helped us grow.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I had just used, I mean, honestly, articles and and stuff I'd already written.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I would search for like Google, the top Google results.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's the the format of our show is that we'll cover, we'll search for something on Google, pick two of the top uh articles on that topic, and we'll go through them and we'll parse out what is uh what you should listen to and what's unrealistic, what's that fluff that people are putting in just to get the word count or just to get the affiliate link.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll go through that.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: And that's I think people also really appreciated the varying format versus just an interview and they got to spend more time with us and and get to know us better.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like they were just our friends hanging out with us.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and so that loyalty also breeds um like fans that that will binge the backlog, um, so to speak.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it's much easier to retain one listener than it is to and have them listen to a hundred episodes than it is to gain a hundred listeners.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: So that was those are this kind of strategies that we took.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you didn't do any sort of outside marketing or anything.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: This this is basically just organic growth because you paid attention to SEO.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, obviously delivering great value on the show, but would you say that the SEO component has been a significant part of the podcast growth?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I have no analytics.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: I have no analytics to back that up, but it wasn't being done.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: So when I was looking for podcast episodes in, you know, before I even started my podcast, I looked for, I searched for for questions, just like you would on Google.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, oh, okay, I don't have time to read an article or I don't want to read an article about this, but I but I want to listen to the answer um in my car or something.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I would, I would search it on Apple Podcasts and I wouldn't see like, I would see all these quippy titles, um, you know, very artistic, very, you know, clickbaity, but I wouldn't see the answer to my question.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I just want to, I want to be when somebody searches for a question, I want to be the top result.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to have any quippiness, I don't want to have any, you know, like cutie titles, that kind of stuff.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: No, I want to be the first uh podcast that pops up when they want to solve their problem.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: And and that was, I think that really served us well.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then we did some, we did, we've always done a lot of podcast guesting.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because we we love being on people's shows.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: And that is the other thing that that really helped us.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: See, this is really, really good stuff.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: If you see me looking down during this conversation, because I'm taking notes furiously, this is really, really good stuff.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: So so let me do a little uh I'll be a guinea pig here.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I happen to have a podcast, obviously, we're on it as we speak.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that is something I have not really done is um I have not primarily looked at this show as a problem-solving show.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: I typically use it as okay, here's what I'm thinking about, here's what people ask me about, here's questions I want to answer.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm really intrigued by your strategy of just going on Google and looking for here, here's the problems people have in relation to this.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Now, talk for a second if you can about okay, if you were running a writing podcast, what kinds of things would you use Google for?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, would you just like Google where people's biggest frustrations about writing or publishing those kinds of things and just do research like that to try and figure out where people are really struggling in that process?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I you could use a um like an SEO software.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um Uber suggest is one.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: You can get a seven-day trial to I think it's AH Refs, ah refs.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I don't, yeah, I've seen that before.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so so that'll give you so you can type in like or even um what is it, answer the public or ask the people.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: So use one of those because you will be able to type in one thing, like one one topic that you really want to write about.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: So like frugal friends, I think also the fact that our our like our title and and your title as well of the podcast, there is no question what we're talking about.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's another title.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so that's another thing.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: So you know exactly what you're gonna get, you know the mindset behind the answer you're gonna get.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so I think just thinking about what do I want to talk about and kind of searching that in one of those softwares to see, okay, are people are people asking this?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then it'll also recommend like alternative searches or or adjacent searches, um, and which can also be like topics.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: So for us, we would just use like Google auto finish.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: So so we started out like how to save money on, and we just took the top 10, whatever Google fin like finished it with.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: So how to save money on housing, how to save money on bills, how to save money on clothing, how to save money on a wedding.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, that's genius.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: Those were literally our first 10 episodes.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: Those you go back, those are our first episodes is how to save money on this, on that, on that, on that.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that is a free way to do that.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: If you have something that's you have a topic that's um that's very niche, you can do something like that.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: See, I kind of want to just crawl over in the corner and cry right now because I've been podcasting since, and I'm I'm sort of being funny.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I've been podcasting since 2013, you know, more on than off, but not totally consistent.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: And there's part of me that just goes, why have I never thought of just thinking of a podcast as solving problems?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because we we I think we attach so many other things to podcasting, like I want to do interviews, or I want obviously we're talking right now, I want to do interviews, or I want to talk about things that are important to me, or some people use a podcast as I want to kind of vent my frustrations or air my opinions about this or that.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I love this approach that you've taken, which is taking a topic, obviously money, and simply looking at it through the lens of solving people's problems.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's that is so basic and so simple, yet it has never occurred to me to approach it that way.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Our mindset when we started was nobody cares about us.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody cares about us, nobody wants to listen to our show, nobody cares.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: What do they care about?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: They care about themselves and their problems.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: So let's let's figure out, let's help them solve their problems.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: They also love listening to themselves.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: So we have this bill of the week segment in the middle of every show where they get to call in and say their bill of the week, whether it's like, you know, a bill, a dollar bill they found, or a bill they paid off, or lowered, or like some dude named Bill or a duck bill.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's a very fun segment.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: And they love hearing themselves.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: We are six months backed up playing bills of the week.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: So people want to solve their own problems and they'll want to hear their own voices.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: And that's me included.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: I don't, I there are very few people I care about on podcasts.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll listen to their show because they solve my problems in a way that I can really understand and implement.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: But like I don't fully care about them as a person.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: I like them, um, but mostly because they help me solve my problems.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: That is so good.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's really that's really, really good.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna when I go back and re-listen, I don't re-listen to interviews, honestly, very often because I'm like, I'm there when it happened.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: But there are occasions when I when I really have to go back and listen carefully and take notes.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just stopping taking notes right now because I can't write down all of your wisdom on this stuff.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: What I'll do is probably I'll run this through transcription software so I can really read through it carefully.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm curious if if you can talk about the value of having a co-host on your show.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: Here's why I'm asking is because I've done my shows solo forever, but I listen to a lot of shows that have co-hosts, and I really like that.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious if you can if you can give us some wisdom on should you have a co-host, should you not?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: How do you then deal with the responsibilities of the show?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Who's actually like paying for the show for hosting and expenses?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you how do you think through all that?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there is a lot to think through, and we got very, very lucky.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: We did not start the way you should start a co-hosting relationship.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody would have recommended we do this.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we just got so lucky because we like each other so much that we wanted to do the show every week.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's what kept us through the first um like two years that we made like no money.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we just we just wanted to hang out every week.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's why we did it.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I talked to other podcasts um like that are co-hosted, and they have the same experience.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like the the shows that are really based on friendship versus business, right?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: Are really the most successful, and you can see that.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and people people go to us, oh my gosh, you're friends in real life too.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we don't we don't post a lot on social media because when we hang out, we're just like hanging out, we're not thinking about business unless I bring it up because I usually do.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because that's just me.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: But so, so that is really important, but that has caused us since being successful to want to protect our friendship at all costs.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, last year we had a lawyer draft up a formal contract for for the business.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I don't know if it's called some kind of contracts that you have between in a partnership and um and just to protect each other, it's like a prenup.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like it doesn't mean you're getting divorced.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: It means that you're just kind of allocating where resources should live.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and so when I went full-time on the podcast last year, we we had to have like a reallocation of okay, I'm putting in more time than you because you still have a full-time job.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: So how are the how's the income gonna get reallocated?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: So so yeah, it takes a lot of at the beginning, uh, flexibility, grace, love for your co-host, and but it's so worth it because having these, like Jill is a licensed uh clinical social worker.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a personal finance writer.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: We bring, she brings insight um and balance to the show that I would never bring on my own.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: She asks questions to guests that I would have never thought, um, and vice versa.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's like you get you get two hosts, two podcasts in one, because you're getting the the experience and insight of two people in one show.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so I think that listeners really like that, but it's not for everyone for sure.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: You it's it's really a chemistry thing.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: You have to find the right co-host, or you may just be more successful doing it on your own.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: Could you make a case that okay?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna reveal my age here.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: So when I was growing up, I watched Johnny Carson all the time.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, did you ever watch Johnny Carson?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, did you ever see any of his stuff on the tonight show?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: I know who he is.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: I've like seen clips.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I know who he is.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: So he would have, and Jay Leno, I think, did the same thing too sometimes, but they would have guest hosts occasionally.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like Johnny Carson got to a point in his career where he would like take every Friday off or every Monday or something.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: He would have like Joan Rivers come in or Jay Leno or somebody else to host the show.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I th I always thought that was kind of cool because he was inviting other people to share his platform, but he wasn't like splitting it 50 50.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: He was giving them a small slice of it.
• 21:59
  unknown: Do you think?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: It would work for a show to have kind of a revolving door of guests co-hosts.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: That way you're not like committing to one personality, but you're kind of giving people you kind of have this roster of maybe three or four or five people who are coming in and that kind of a thing.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that is something that we are going to start to test out actually soon.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: So we did have a guest co-host when I gave birth.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: I took three weeks off, and my friend Allison came in and co-hosted with Jill.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so we would like to, and I know a ton of shows that do that.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: That is a common thing.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that they'll have guest co-hosts either.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: So, like for us, we'll test um having the co-host come in and replace one of us.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: So either it's me and the guest co-host or Jill and the guest co-host, or just having the guest co-host come in with both of us and we do a normal article-based um episode um with the three of us instead of doing an interview.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it's somebody who comes on regularly, like maybe once a month.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so they get to know the person.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I'm actually a guest co um or guest panelist on a show called Earn and Invest.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: So so yeah, it is, it's done.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's great because it gives you um like like bigger pockets, the real estate investing.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of that's a big strategy that they use to like grow podcasts.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's a very common thing, it's very good when it's done well.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: It gives the people a chance to like build trust with um another content creator.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: So you you allow a content creator to build, like borrow your platform um and the unique platform a podcast provides without starting their own podcast.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, which is great.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then they allow you um to maybe take a week off or um or whatever your purpose is for doing your thing.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they promote, maybe they have a high a big social media following, but no podcast.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: So they guest co-host your podcast and then they go promote you um and the podcast on social media.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: So like it's this, it's this great synergy um that that comes around.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's super fascinating.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: I I didn't know that that was such a big thing on other shows.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: I've listened to bigger podcasts before.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's been a little while, but I think that that dynamic of having more than one person, like be the constant voice.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: And also it's kind of tiring.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is a daily show, and sometimes I I I mean, just being really honest, sometimes I wonder okay, if people want to show about writing, but they don't really click with me for some reason, because I'm too low-key or I'm too chill, or I'm a male, or whatever reason, you know, we don't click with everybody.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: That would be cool to have some variety in there.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, so if I'm hearing you correctly, you could structure this any number of ways, just as long as you're bringing in different voices and having some diversity of energy and uh perspectives, that is always a good thing.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely, definitely.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: How would you handle that with interviews?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because if if let's say if I just do a solo interview, then could you just have the other person listen to the interview later and then you both are kind of like commenting on it and those kinds of things?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: So we would not do since we only have an interview every third episode, it would just be Jill and I doing an episode.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: We would do this just on the episodes, it's just Jill and I.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, because it's also logistically more difficult the more people you have on the interview, on the episode, to just coordinate schedules.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so you have to think of that too.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: But um, like when I went on maternity leave, we had we made sure, so there was an interview scheduled uh during that.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: And we just made sure it was our friend Chris, who Allison was really comfortable with.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: And still there were only three people on the interview.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: It was just Jill, Allison, and Chris.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's if we had an interview, it would just be one of us would be out, um, sort of thing.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: Now I don't want to finish this interview without asking you about your enormously successful book, The No Spend Challenge Guide, because this is a writing podcast, of course.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't a podcasting podcast, um, but today it is.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm curious if you can give us any insights about the interplay between this book, which if I remember right, has 1,137 reviews on Amazon, something like that.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: I looked right before we hopped on here.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's what it's over a thousand, I do know that.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, how how does that book relate to your podcast in terms of cross-promotion or how the podcast has helped the book to be so successful, or whatever you can share about the interplay between those two things?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: Here's the beautiful thing about books and podcasts.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: Podcast listeners are book readers.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: Book readers are podcast listeners.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: You don't always get that lining up with like blogs and YouTube and Instagram and TikTok.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: But if you are a reader, chances are you've listened to a podcast, probably in the same genre of the book you're reading.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: If you've listened to a podcast, you've probably listened to an author on a podcast and at least considered maybe getting and reading their book.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: The target audience between books and podcasts are super similar.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think more similar than any other platforms.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's good.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: So that's why it's such a good idea for authors to either have their own podcast, if they're building a bigger business that can that they can sell through a podcast, or if they're solely looking to sell the their one book or solely looking to sell books, to consistently be guesting on people's podcasts.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah, when I so when I wrote the No Spend Challenge Guide, it was uh published in November of 2017 and we started the show in April of 2018.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so there was just a lot of synergy between directing people who read the book, directing them to the podcast.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: And on the podcast, I could make uh we were we were doing such aligned content that it was very natural for me to um just like throw out the book, you know, be like, oh yeah, this is a suggestion I gave in my book, The No Spend Challenge Guide.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's available on Amazon.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I I mean, we even did several, we have done several episodes on no spend challenges that are super popular.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so there is so much synergy that can help with sales because you'll hear a lot like podcasts are just marketing tools.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: You're not really doing it to make money, at least at first.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: So until you make a little bit of money, then it's like, oh, right.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: Now we do make money on our show, but for you know, the first four years, it was just marketing.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: What could we market?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you do that in a really you can do that in a really authentic way with a podcast, uh, which I love.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: I have more trust for for an author when I hear them on a podcast, um, especially the podcast of a person that I already trust.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: So you're borrowing audiences when you go on other people's podcasts.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I and it's just a beautiful way to sell more books and podcasts, doing your own podcast can help you flesh out ideas for um books.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: So you can see if your audience is interested in a topic before you write a book on it or before you include that chapter in the book just by doing an episode on it.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: And if you have a wildly successful episode, um, that could be the inspiration for a book.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so podcasts are also a great testing ground if you want to write more.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: I totally agree with that because you can just look at your stats and you can immediately see it's it's even like better than book sales because you know, book sales, there's but the by the time somebody buys a book and you kind of look at your stats, you know, it's not always clear like what happens in that process.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, particularly if you do traditional publishing because you don't have access to all that stuff a lot of times.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: But with podcasting, all you have to do is look at stats and you can immediately see, okay, yesterday we had this many downloads and people listen to these episodes.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so funny because you get immediate feedback on what people like and what they don't like.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that about podcasting.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely always being every 30 days looking at um 30-day stats.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because if a, you know, usually your first day downloads are your highest, but you'll know a good topic when it's when it gains traction and it starts and it, yeah, after 30 days, it's it's done increasingly well, exceedingly well.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, then that's a topic your audience wants to see more of it wants to see expounded on.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it's a really, you know, it can be something to note to maybe explore in more in book form.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, before we uh wrap this up, Jen, this has been a blast.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I could talk to you for hours about this stuff.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have any because we're talking about the power of podcasting and particularly guesting on other people's podcast?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have any tips for people who want to get on other people's shows and how you can do that in a natural and authentic way that that really adds value to the podcast host, to their audience, to your audience?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do you get to be a guest on other people's shows, but do it in a nice way that's that's not always pitching yourself?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm seeing a trend towards a lot of like fake generosity to be like, oh, how can I support you?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: What can I do for you?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: And when I know, I was like, I know you're just trying to get on my show.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I kind of steer people away from that because that's been like advice that's been given lately.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think every business owner, podcast person, every podcast host has gotten that email, enough of those emails to know like people are recommending you say that, but people, I mean, also like there are very few things like somebody can do for me.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: I just I wouldn't even know what to think.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what can you do?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what you can do for me.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I would say first go in.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: So this is a the a podcast pitch I like to see is somebody who has looked at my backlog, looked at the types of things we've published, and be like, how can I, what are some topics that I could talk about that are adjacent to these, um, that maybe build on them but aren't identical?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: Because I get so many pitches from like, oh, this financial advisor's built a seven-figure business.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: Let us talk about business.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have a business podcast.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: I took myself out of the business and investing category.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, that's that's not gonna fly.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: So take time to look at the backlog.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_03: I don't care if somebody's listened to the show.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: Some people will say, Oh, I just listened to your insert latest episode here.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: I really liked the 30 seconds I listened to in the middle.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: I don't expect you to listen to the show.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's fine.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I do expect you to look at the backlog, pick a few ideas for titles or to like catchy titles that would be good.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_03: Do the work for me that are adjacent to adjacent to what we're already publishing, and then your credentials on why you would be the person for me to pick to talk about these uh titles.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you can do some of the work for me, um, that's gonna definitely whether you have a platform or not, I don't care.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um it it will it will make me more likely to to pick the person if they really naturally fit into the lineup or be like, hey, I saw you did this episode like last year, but you really haven't done anything since.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I could do something like adjacent to it.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: And here are some here's some really good title ideas.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I've done this.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: This is why I could, you know, I've done this, this, and this.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: This is why I think I would be like good to talk about it.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um so that's kind of what I like to see.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: If you want to butter me up at the beginning, I won't hate it.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I know what right.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: I know what we know what's going on, but you know, yeah, I know when it's fake.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're gonna fake it, just don't bother.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um but so that's kind of it.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good thing, you know.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, be honest, be authentic, um, and kind and do some of the work for them.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Man, that is I get and I get pitches too.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Your show's much bigger than mine, but I still get pitches.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I love it whenever, and then it happens so infrequently that it shocks me when it happens.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: When somebody says, I can come on your show and talk about this or this or this, and it's clear they actually know what the show is about, you know, for one thing.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: But then when they give me title ideas and they say, here's four or five things that that we could chat about, I'm like, oh my gosh, let me call this person immediately because you just you just given me an outline for the interview, which makes it so much easier.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, give them questions.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's like when they, you know, if they pick you and be like, oh, hey, here are some questions related to this topic that I love talking about because I want to ask you questions that you could talk all day about.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: But you won't talk all day about, but you could.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:21
  unknown: Right.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: So like that's helpful too.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like we in our media kit, we include, and when we send it to other podcasters, we include um possible questions that we love answering.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: So that's another thing that's pretty good.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna shoot you an email later and have you send me your media kit because I'm super uh what you put in there.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think there's an important principle here because we are chatting on a writing podcast.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: Writers are people who can come up with stuff, they're creative or supposed to be.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: So you can always find a way to make whatever topic you want to talk about adjacent to the topic of the show.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if I was gonna pitch your show, I would probably say, okay, so my thing's writing, your thing is frugality and money.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: I would be like, what are the connections between those two topics?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: I would probably think, okay, how do you self-publish or how do you get editing done for your book on a budget?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: How do you do it cheaply where you're not spending$10,000 on something?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Or what's the best?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: I have to think about it some more, but there's always ways that you can connect two topics.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, we have one of the one of the episodes on our our schedule is we have a we're starting a frugal side hustle series.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: Ooh, that's and like free freelance writing is one of the frugal side.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I started it for like absolutely free.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it's a great way to make money without investing money.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: So there honestly, there are very few things you can't spin to work for our show.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: But like people don't if you don't know the show, you don't know what the spin is.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and but like look at this, read the description of the podcast.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's a go to the website.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, go to the website, get a feel for it, and look at the last um 20 some odd episode titles.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: Make sure they have guests on before you pitch them.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: Don't pitch a don't pitch a show that doesn't do interviews.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, as I mentioned a bit ago, I'm gonna have to go back and re-listen to this because you've given us a ton of tips.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: Jen, I appreciate you as a person, but also as a podcaster, as an author, and as a super genius business person as well.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you just have a lot to offer to people.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks again for doing this.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: This has been great.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, remind people where they can find the podcast, your book, and all the things related to Jen Smith and Frugal Friends.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: So you can find the book, The No Spend Challenge Guide, and my other two books on Amazon.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: They are all self-published.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then you can listen to Frugal Friends Podcast uh every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you're listening to this podcast.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: Wonderful.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: This has been a ton of fun.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks again for doing this.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thanks for having me.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I hope you had as much fun listening to that conversation as I did getting to talk to Jen.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: As you can see, she's really smart and has approached her writing and podcasting and other things that she's doing in not just a really creative way, but a really smart way, business-wise.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot to take away from what she shared with us.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I hope that you'll listen to this again and take advantage of all her amazing wisdom.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: I want to encourage you to check out her podcast, which again is called the Frugal Friends Podcast, and also check out her book, which is called the No Spend Challenge Guide.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if you want bonus points, so you know, I'm I used to be a college professor, as you might know, so I'm always thinking in terms of extra credit.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why I said say those things, but you know, once a professor, always a professor.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want bonus points, I want to encourage you to go to her email list and sign up for that.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Go to frugalfriendspodcast.com, sign up for her list, and you're gonna get some really cool things from her, not just because they're great on the topic of frugality and and spending and finance and those kinds of things, but you're gonna see a master marketer at work.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I've learned a lot from actually being on her email list the past two or three months, and I know that you're going to learn a lot as well.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: So many thanks to Jen for taking the time to be a guest on this episode and sharing her wisdom.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: And before I wrap up this episode, I want to let you know that this episode is brought to you by the new book, The Faith of Elvis, a story only a brother can tell.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: I wrote this book with Billy Stanley, who is Elvis Presley's stepbrother, to share the untold story of Elvis' deep Christian faith.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: You'll read never before published stories about Elvis' generosity, how he relied on his faith in tough times, and what it was like for Billy to grow up with Elvis as an older brother.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: It was a huge privilege to be involved with this project, and our early reader feedback has been that it's a very quick read that leaves you feeling really inspired.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: So if you love Elvis, if you enjoy music, if you like great storytelling, or if you just want to deepen your personal faith, I promise that you're gonna love the faith of Elvis.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: The book comes out on October 4th, and you can pre order the book at all the major retailers, and you can even download a free chapter of the book via a link in the show notes.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, thanks so much for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.