Latest / History Dark / The Krays by Fred Dinenage _ From a Peaceful Childhood to Organised Crime _ TCC

Transcript

The Krays by Fred Dinenage _ From a Peaceful Childhood to Organised Crime _ TCC · History Dark

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I've seen the bad side of him. I've seen him
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: stab people and shoot people.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: He was definitely a sick boy. The medication he used
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: to take would knock a horse over.
• 0:13
  Speaker 3: Nothing like a bit of gang warfare now and again
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: anyway to liven things up.
• 0:18
  Speaker 4: I'm Fred Dynage, the official biographer to the Kray twins.
• 0:22
  Speaker 4: I found writing the Kray twins story a very hard
• 0:25
  Speaker 4: thing to do, you see. Really, the twins and I
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: had absolutely nothing in common. I would sit for hours
• 0:32
  Speaker 4: and listen to their stories of the often brutal crimes
• 0:36
  Speaker 4: they'd committed, and here I was, someone who hadn't got
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: a criminal.
• 0:38
  Speaker 5: Record at all.
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: They could never ever say sorry, they could never express
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: regret for the things they'd done, or even for the
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: families of the people who'd been killed or hurt. Now,
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: 25 years later, I'm revisiting the Kray story and meeting
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: their associates, looking again at the most notorious gangsters in
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: British history to see just how right I got it.
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: The book I wrote with the Kray twins, Reg and Ron,
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: Our Story, was published in 1988.
• 1:17
  Speaker 6: It was a.
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: Success at the time, and since then I've continued with
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: my life as a TV presenter and journalist. But nonetheless,
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: their story has always held.
• 1:26
  Speaker 5: A fascination for me.
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: I first became involved with the Kray twins in the mid-1980s.
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: I was introducing Coast to Coast, the ITV, regional news
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: program for the south of England. We featured a father
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: who wanted to thank Addenbrooke's hospital for saving his daughter's
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: life with a transplant. A few days later, I received
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: a letter from one Reggie Cray saying he'd seen the film,
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: he'd been very moved by it, he'd like to help
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: the father raise some money. And he thought a good
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: way of doing this would be to get prisoners at
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: Parkhurst who were good artists to do paintings, which could
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: then be auctioned off I put Reggie Cray in touch
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: with the father, and sure enough, some paintings arrived. We
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: ran another feature on the paintings themselves, and a few
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: days later, another letter from Parkhurst Prison from Reggie Cray saying,
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: saw the item.
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: Loved it very much. Would you like to come to
• 2:19
  Speaker 5: Parkhurst and meet me?
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: It was an invitation. As a journalist, I couldn't refuse.
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: I did go and see him. We got on fine.
• 2:28
  Speaker 5: He said, come back and see me again.
• 2:31
  Speaker 6: I did.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: And on that second occasion, he said, Ronnie and I
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: are looking for someone to write our life story. Would
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: you like to do it? And I found myself saying, well, yeah,
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: I'd like to think about it. I'm retracing their extraordinary
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: lives again from their childhood to their heyday to their
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: demise and meeting key people for the very first time.
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: It all began when the twins were born on October 24th, 1933.
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: Reggie was born first, then Ron, 10 minutes later. It's
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: the Kray twins' roots here in the east end of
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: London that's the key to their whole story. Frankie Fraser
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: knew them when they were just kids. He watched them
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: grow from young tearaways into hardened gangsters.
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: I'm looking forward to meeting Frankie because the twins.
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: Spoke such a lot about him and Reggie said to
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: me once that Frankie Fraser was the only person they
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: were actually ever frightened of because he was mad Frankie
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: Fraser it's lovely to see you after all these years
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: and what a fantastic setting to be in this Repton
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: boxing club.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: I love it. It's terrific. The atmosphere is still as
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: it always been.
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: Why do they call you mad, Frankie Fraser?
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: Well, after being certified three times, I can't expect to
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: be called fucking sane, Frankie, can I?
• 4:12
  Speaker 6: Reggie and Ronnie, you knew them when.
• 4:15
  Speaker 5: They were kids.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: Yes, I did, yeah. Well, I used to, when I
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: was 19, I'd just come out of Chelmsford Prison. And
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: I used to drink with their father, just during the war.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: And sometimes when the pubs used to shut at three
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: o'clock in the afternoon, we'd normally go to a club
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: or sometimes I'd go home with their dad and have
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: a meal. Well, they were nine years of age. They
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: used to call me Uncle Frank. Years later, we had
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: a good laugh about it, yeah.
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: What were they like when they were kids?
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: They were all right, yeah. Very respectful, yes. Mum and
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: Dad brought them up well that way, yeah.
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: The twins did most of their growing up on Valance Road.
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: They lived with their mum, dad and older brother, Charlie.
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: Fighting was a passion for the boys. They loved to
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: box and as they reached.
• 5:09
  Speaker 5: Their teams, they were winning championships. And what about the.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: Twins' dad?
• 5:15
  Speaker 5: What can you tell us about him?
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: Well, he was a good man. I liked him when
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: they were growing up. He was on the run at
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: the time, their dad. He was hardly ever home. And
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: he did get a little bit shifted as he was
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: getting older, yeah. So he wasn't really a very good
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: influence on them. Their mum was their best one. They
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: worshipped her.
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: Can you describe her to me?
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: Well, she's a typical lovely mum, as mums should be.
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: She worshipped them.
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: My mother was simply a wonderful woman. No man ever
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: had a finer mother. We often had no money and
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: very little food, but she always made sure that Reggie
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: and Charlie and I had something to eat and something
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: half decent to wear. She never gave in to despair
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: or frustration, even when times were bleak and the future
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: seemed to hold nothing. I would kill any man who
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: spoke ill of my mother. The teenage twins were developing
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: promising boxing careers. Reg was the London school's champion and
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: even turned professional. But their chance to forge a career
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: in boxing was cut short when they got into one
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: fight too many and ended up in the Old Bailey.
• 6:32
  Speaker 5: At just 16.
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: From then on, the boxing promoters wouldn't touch them. Reggie
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: Cray had asked me to write the twins' life story,
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: but first I had to meet his twin brother, Ron.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: who was at Broadmoor Hospital for the Criminally Insane at
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: Crowthorne in Berkshire. And I'll always remember, as I was
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: walking towards that very forbidding main entrance into the hospital,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: a white limousine pulled up alongside me with blackened windows.
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: One of the back windows dropped down, a puff of
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: smoke came out, and I heard a voice saying, Fred Dynage,
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: and I said, yes. And he said, I'm so-and-so-and-so-and-so. I
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: won't mention his name. But he said, I run a
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: lot of London's underworld business. I'm a close friend of
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: Ronnie Cray. If you write this book, you're going to
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: look after him, aren't you?
• 7:19
  Speaker 5: And I said, of course, it'll be very honest. He said,
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: that's OK.
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: Window went up, the car drove off. I went inside,
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: met Ronnie Cray. We had our meeting, we chatted for
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: an hour or so, got on OK. At the end
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: of it, Ronnie Cray looked at me and said, I
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: agree with Reg, you can write our story. During that
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: first meeting with Ronnie, it was hard to imagine him
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: as an eager young man. In Broadmoor, he.
• 7:46
  Speaker 5: Was quiet, but underneath, there was something unnerving.
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: Whenever I met the Kray twins, it was obvious they
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: still had enormous power, even though they were inside. Whatever
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: they wanted, they generally got. And someone who helped them
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: in that direction, a great friend of the Kray twins, Indeed,
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: a man they had tremendous respect for is a.
• 8:09
  Speaker 5: Guy called Freddie Foreman, a real godfather of British crime.
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: Never actually a member of the Cray firm, but certainly
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: what you might call an enforcer. Well, Freddie Foreman in
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: Palicci's here, this Italian cafe in the east end of London.
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: And what's come through to me, all of this, is
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: that you are just about the most respected figure... still
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: in the East End. How did you come to meet
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: Reggie and Ronnie?
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Well, I met them through Charlie, their brother Charlie, who
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: was older than him. And then the twins were only
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: young then, but there was something about them that was
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: destined for them to be notorious, you know, because they
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: was a bit unruly, to say the least. I remember
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: the first time I went to their home, they were
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: out in the backyard punching the daylights out of each other,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: you know, And the old man and Charlie had to
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: go out.
• 9:05
  Speaker 5: And stop them.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: But he used to say to me, Charlie, have a
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: word with them, you know, the twins, and see if
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: you can talk some sense into them. But of course,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: they were too young and fiery. They wouldn't listen to
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: what you had to say. They'd go in one ear
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: and out the other. They'd still do what they wanted
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: to do.
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: Ronnie and Reggie were called up for national service when
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: they were 18. The twins fought conscription and spent two
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: years running from the army. At times they got caught,
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: and legend has it they found themselves locked up in
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: the Tower of London.
• 9:39
  Speaker 5: Writing the Kray twins.
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: Story wasn't particularly easy because of the limited access I
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: could get to them. I could only see them once
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: a month and then for just a couple of hours,
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: so it took several years to actually write it, and
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: an added complication was the fact that Reggie moved prison
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: a few times, and every time we had to meet
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: in a huge visiting hall... which didn't make it any easier.
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: At Broadmoor, the problem with Ronnie wasn't quite so bad.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: They gave us a private room to talk in, so
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: that showed the amount of trust there was with the
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: authorities there. This extraordinary footage has never been seen before
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: on television. It shows me talking to Ronnie Cray in
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: the corridors of Broadmoor. Ronnie was legendary for always being
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: immaculately dressed as you can see here. And they called
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: him the Colonel because of the way he marched everywhere.
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: But the Kray twins could actually reach you, find you
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: almost anywhere, no matter where you were, even though they
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: were both inside. I'll always remember one Sunday morning I
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: was having a bit of emergency dental treatment at a
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: hospital in Portsmouth. I'd just sat back in the dentist's chair.
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: He was just about to stick the needle in my
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: gum when I heard a phone ring outside. The receptionist
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: knocked on the door, stuck her head round the door
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: and said, there's a phone call for Mr Dynage.
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: The dentist was horrified.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: He said, what?
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: He said, who is it?
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: She said, it's someone called Reggie Cray. God, said the dentist,
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: you better answer it. I'm Fred Dynage, official biographer of
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: the Cray twins. They told me their story over a
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: number of years from their prison cells. And now I'm
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: revisiting that story with help from their associates to see
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: how right I got it. Writing a book about the
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: Kray twins wasn't easy because it was difficult to find
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: out the truth to separate fact from fiction. Virtually everybody
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: I've met has had good things to say about them,
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: but I've got a feeling that Lenny Hamilton and Billy
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: Frost might have a somewhat different account of things.
• 11:43
  Speaker 7: When he got him in the neck, they started cutting
• 11:46
  Speaker 7: him down the back, stabbing him.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Reggie had a quite big.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: I'm in line.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: He went to the fucking pub.
• 11:53
  Speaker 6: He put it on his guts.
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: This pub was run by the Kray's mum, Violet. Firm
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: member Billy and jewel thief Lenny knew it well.
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: How did you both meet the Kray twins?
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Well, I met them when I was about 18. I
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: was on the run from the army. I used to
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: go to a dance hall called The Royal over Tottenham.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: It used to be the inn place at the time.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: And that's where I first met. Ron and Reg.
• 12:22
  Speaker 7: And I first met them when I'd been out of
• 12:25
  Speaker 7: the army about six weeks. And I was walking down
• 12:28
  Speaker 7: Burdett Road off of Mile End. And I see this
• 12:32
  Speaker 7: big fella having a fight with these two young fellas.
• 12:36
  Speaker 7: So I went over and helped them.
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: They got away.
• 12:40
  Speaker 7: He was a copper. He arrested me. He said, do
• 12:43
  Speaker 7: you know who they was? I said, no, they. He said,
• 12:45
  Speaker 7: they're the Craterers. He said, I was arresting them. They're
• 12:47
  Speaker 7: on the run from the army. The next time I
• 12:50
  Speaker 7: met him was... The snooker rule. I was playing snooker
• 12:54
  Speaker 7: and then this fella tapped me on the shoulder and
• 12:56
  Speaker 7: it turned round. He said, don't mend me, do you?
• 12:58
  Speaker 7: I said, no, I don't do you. He said, I'm
• 13:00
  Speaker 7: Reggie Gray. He said, you helped us when the old
• 13:03
  Speaker 7: bill was on us. So the old man went, yeah,
• 13:05
  Speaker 7: and I'm Ronnie. And I looked, I couldn't tell him apart,
• 13:08
  Speaker 7: could you? You couldn't tell him apart.
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: The 21-year-old twins' first business venture was a billiard hall,
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: but trouble followed soon. Ron was put away for GBH
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: after shooting and wounding a man. So Reg opened up
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: their first nightclub, The Double R, as a tribute to
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: his imprisoned twin. Billy Frost worked for the Krays and
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: was a member of what became known as The Firm.
• 13:33
  Speaker 5: What was your role in The Firm?
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Boys that drive and do little.
• 13:40
  Speaker 7: different things like, you know. He was one of the
• 13:42
  Speaker 7: most trusted on the firm, Billy.
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: Was he?
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Amazing.
• 13:45
  Speaker 7: Well, I used to think of him in the 60s.
• 13:49
  Speaker 7: You never even mention the crazy name.
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: Still only in their mid-20s, and they were running clubs
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: and protection rackets with sidelines in fraud, armed robbery and arson.
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: Were they greatly feared at the time?
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: Oh, they were, yeah.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Over a period of time, their reputation spread. But when
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: it first started, people went to them because if they
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: had a troublesome business, a nightclub or public house where
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: it's a bit rough, they would welcome the twins into
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the business and put them on a wage because they
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: would have no more trouble. It was a sort of
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: protection business that was beneficial to both sides.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: High-profile celebrities were attracted to the danger of being associated
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: with the craze. Film stars, music idols and politicians were
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: queuing up to be friends with the glamorous gangsters.
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: Reggie and Ronnie were.
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: Always surrounded by celebrities, weren't they?
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: Show business people, singers, et cetera. What do you remember
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: about that?
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Well, their reputation spread even to America because when all
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: the stars came over here appeared at the Pagal or
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: different shows in the West End, they always sort out
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: the twins for some reason or other. I don't know why,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't as though they were supplying them with
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: drugs or anything, you know, to get any drug. They
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: wouldn't touch anything like cocaine or puff. They never used
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: anything like that.
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: Which celebrities do you recall?
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, well, bloody hell, they never stopped. I mean, Barbara
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Winston was the first one, of course. because she became
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: a great friend and she helped my son Jamie out
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: in his career when he started acting. But in the
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: back going back further to the 60s, Jane Mansfield was
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: one with her husband, but then there was Tony Bennett,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Judy Garland, Sophie Tucker, Billy Daniels.
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: It was on that night, with Ron and me done
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: up like dogs' dinners in our bow ties and dinner
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: jackets and surrounded by the rich and famous, that I
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: realised we were well on the way to making it
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: to the very top.
• 16:08
  Speaker 6: To the very top.
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: I felt so powerful that night. I felt nothing was
• 16:12
  Speaker 5: going to stop us.
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: As the twins' power base grew, their personal lives moved on.
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: Reg had fallen for Francis Shea, whom he married in
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: April 1965, and it was no secret that his brother
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: Ron was gay. What were your feelings about Ronnie Gray?
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: I liked Ronnie. I really liked him. He was really,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: to me, a nice fella, you know? I've seen the
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: bad side of him. I've seen him stab people and
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: shoot people, but I still liked him. And Reggie was
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: the same. I used to drive Reg about and all.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: A lot of the time, Reg was in, like, conflict
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: within himself, if you know what I mean. I think
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: he was discovering what he wanted to be. He had
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: a beautiful wife, Frances. She was a lovely girl. You know?
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: What happened there?
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: He never, ever had anything sexually to do with that girl. Reggie,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: even the dad would tell you that. Oh, Charlie.
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: And she died?
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: She killed herself, didn't she? Took her overdose. Look what
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: they've done to her, Bill. Oh, you know, Len, it's
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: all supposition what you're saying.
• 17:22
  Speaker 5: No, it ain't.
• 17:22
  Speaker 6: No, it ain't.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: It is, Len.
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: No, because Exley told me. Who?
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Billy Exley told me. What do you mean, no? He
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: was dumb as arseholes, Billy.
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: He was.
• 17:31
  Speaker 7: Billy Exley told me he used to make them a lot.
• 17:33
  Speaker 7: He used to drive them about.
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: Frances committed suicide, overdosing on barbiturates only two years after
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: she married Reg. Rumours still persist about her death, and
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: some people don't think it was even suicide. It was
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: another extraordinary chapter in the life of the twins. For me,
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: their personal and criminal lives were fascinating to write. However, everyone,
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: it seemed, wanted a piece of their story. We discovered
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: early on that a famous rock star had also got
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: the rights to the Cray book. So Ronnie said, that's
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: not a problem. Give him a ring and tell him
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: we want you to write our story. So I rang
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: him up and his attitude was over my dead body.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: You're not writing it. I've got the rights. So I
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: told Ronnie, who said, leave it with me. I'll sort
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: it out. And a few days later, the aforementioned rock
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: star rang me up and said, actually, I've changed my mind.
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: You can write the book if you want to. Interesting that,
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: isn't it?
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: Could you see that they were a little bit different,
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: that they were going to be leaders?
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, oh, yeah, you could tell they were going to
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: go to the top, yeah, definitely. Ronnie was the lively one.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: Reggie was a bit more laid-back.
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: Can you paint a picture of the East End for
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: me in the 50s and 60s?
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: Well, there was something about it. It had that hustle
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: and bustle and... People, like, were all with one another then.
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: There's a paradox about East End gangsters that's always puzzled me.
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: On the one hand, they were boys who loved their
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: mum and went to church, but on the other, they
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: were vicious gangsters who destroyed families. I want to talk
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: to a man who knew both twins very well and
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: who indeed shared a landing at Parkhurst Prison with Reggie
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: Cray for a.
• 19:22
  Speaker 5: Number of years.
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: That man, and he's quite a remarkable man, is called
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: Bobby Cummins. Bobby, we're in this rather unique St Matthew's
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: Church here in the East End.
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: It's a special place, isn't it?
• 19:42
  Speaker 8: It is a special place because it's part of the community.
• 19:44
  Speaker 8: It was where the community met. And, you know, though
• 19:48
  Speaker 8: there were villains and all that, we have respect for
• 19:50
  Speaker 8: the church.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: I mean, you knew Reggie Cray as well as anybody
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: better than most.
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: Tell me about Reggie.
• 19:57
  Speaker 8: Well, Reggie Cray, there was two sides of Reggie. There
• 20:00
  Speaker 8: was the Reggie that in business you wouldn't want to
• 20:04
  Speaker 8: mess with. You know, you're talking about... one of the
• 20:07
  Speaker 8: most serious bits of work. But it's also that compassionate side.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Like, I learnt my.
• 20:12
  Speaker 8: Rules off of people like that, like the Freddie Foremans
• 20:14
  Speaker 8: and that.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: That you show respect.
• 20:17
  Speaker 8: Love mum, love your family. If you don't respect your family,
• 20:20
  Speaker 8: you don't respect no-one. Kids were safe in our environment
• 20:23
  Speaker 8: and elderly people were safe in our environment. Villains weren't
• 20:26
  Speaker 8: safe in our environment. You'd come over across the manor,
• 20:29
  Speaker 8: your manor was your territory. You'd come across there and
• 20:31
  Speaker 8: you'd start taking liberties, then we'd assault you.
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: The twins were violent lads, weren't they?
• 20:37
  Speaker 8: We were all violent, Fred. You know, and I've got
• 20:39
  Speaker 8: to go hands up to it. You know, you live
• 20:41
  Speaker 8: in that world. We live in other people's nightmares.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: That's our reality.
• 20:45
  Speaker 8: And when you go out with a gun or you
• 20:47
  Speaker 8: go out with a tool, when people come looking for you,
• 20:49
  Speaker 8: they come looking for your tool. And there's an old
• 20:51
  Speaker 8: rule that we used to have. Better to be caught
• 20:53
  Speaker 8: with one when you don't need it than caught without
• 20:56
  Speaker 8: one when you do. Because if they jump out the
• 20:58
  Speaker 8: motor on you, they're not coming to say hello. They're
• 21:00
  Speaker 8: coming to cut you to pieces or shoot you or
• 21:04
  Speaker 8: kill you. You subscribe to that world. You live by
• 21:06
  Speaker 8: those rules, Fred. and you're groomed into it.
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: The twins grew up surrounded by East End gang warfare.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: It was a way of life for them. Frankie Fraser
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: saw the twins rise to power.
• 21:21
  Speaker 5: Did Reg and Ron ever ask you to join them?
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Yes, of course they did. But I was already then
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: in prison. I said, well, I'll think about it. But
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: then I went with the Richardson's.
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: The Kray twins weren't the only duo ruling London's underworld.
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: A rival gang, the Richardson brothers, Charlie and Eddie, were
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: based south of the river. The Krays told me they
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: had a reputation so fierce it earned them respect from
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: the hardest of criminals. They became famous for their brutal
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: torture techniques.
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: The Richardsons, what were they like?
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: Very intelligent. Miles in front of Eddie and Ronnie were like,
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: we're intelligent and that. But Reggie and Ronnie had the
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: other part. They were very genuine.
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: The East End and South London.
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: What was the difference? What was the problem between them?
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: There was no problem, really. There's always a bit of rivalry.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: Like any football team, same thing, isn't it? Nothing that
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: couldn't be solved. Nothing like a bit of gang warfare
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: now and again. Anyway, to liven things up.
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: I always got the feeling, in fact, Reggie said they
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: were quite wary of you.
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: They would never, ever.
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: Take a liberty with mad Frankie Fraser.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Well, that was their way of looking at it, and
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: that was good.
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: And vice versa.
• 22:49
  Speaker 6: Were you frightened or wary of Reggie and Ronnie?
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: No, of course not. I'm frightened of nothing and no-one.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: Never have been and never will be. It's as simple
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: as that.
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: I'm Fred Dynage, the official biographer to The Cray Twins.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: The Cray Twins only regret really was the mistake they
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: made in their eyes that they shouldn't have committed the
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: crimes themselves.
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: They should have got other people to do it for them.
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: There were many times when I thought, should I really
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: be writing this book in the first place? But then
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: I thought, I'm a journalist. This is part of our
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: criminal history.
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: It should be told.
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: And now I'm going back to that story to make
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: sure I got it right. Talking to Cray's associates about
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: the highs and terrible lows of the infamous gangsters.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Out of the two twins, I preferred Ronnie, though he
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: was definitely a sick boy. He was sick. The medication
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: he used to take would knock a horse over.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: Lenny Hamilton was an East End villain and known associate
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: of the Cray's. He got on the wrong side of
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: the twins after an altercation with a member of the firm.
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: He vividly recalls the night when Ron's mental instability caused
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: him real harm, an indication that Ronnie was starting to
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: lose control.
• 24:19
  Speaker 7: When I got up there, I knew something was dodgy
• 24:23
  Speaker 7: because I had Giza standing that side of the wall,
• 24:25
  Speaker 7: Giza standing there, and I said, oh, out there, Lenny's
• 24:28
  Speaker 7: out there. But when I got out there, it was
• 24:31
  Speaker 7: a little kitchen. and he was standing facing me. His
• 24:36
  Speaker 7: back was to the gas stove then. And he said, well,
• 24:39
  Speaker 7: sit there. He had an old armchair in here. So
• 24:41
  Speaker 7: I sat there. So he went, you know, he was
• 24:46
  Speaker 7: going to one, didn't he? You couldn't hear what he
• 24:49
  Speaker 7: was saying. And all of a sudden he went, oh,
• 24:51
  Speaker 7: you can go now. So as I got up to go,
• 24:53
  Speaker 7: he went, get hold of him. So two of his
• 24:56
  Speaker 7: men got hold of me. And as he turned, I
• 24:58
  Speaker 7: see these pokers on the gas. They were like cold
• 25:02
  Speaker 7: steels with the sharper knives on them, but I called
• 25:03
  Speaker 7: them pokers, like, you know. He came over to me,
• 25:07
  Speaker 7: and I had black curly hair at the time. Burnt
• 25:09
  Speaker 7: all the hair off me. Burnt the suit off me.
• 25:12
  Speaker 7: He went and got another one, held it across there,
• 25:15
  Speaker 7: burnt all my eyebrows off of me. Well, that's how
• 25:17
  Speaker 7: I'm nearly blind in that eye, and almost deaf in
• 25:20
  Speaker 7: that ear. Because then he went and got an hammer.
• 25:23
  Speaker 7: You know what they beat steak with, them hammers? And
• 25:26
  Speaker 7: he smashed me in the ear. and all the blood
• 25:30
  Speaker 7: come out, like, you know. And then he went back
• 25:34
  Speaker 7: and got another poker. He said, now I'm going to
• 25:38
  Speaker 7: burn your fucking eyes out. And he's coming at me
• 25:41
  Speaker 7: with a poker, and someone shouted out.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: No, Ron, not that.
• 25:46
  Speaker 7: And he just stopped.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Like that.
• 25:50
  Speaker 7: He said, right, you can go now.
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: How did you feel about Ronnie Cray after that?
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: I hated him.
• 25:56
  Speaker 7: Hated him. I didn't like him much before. People were
• 26:01
  Speaker 7: terrified of him. I wasn't old, I admit it, you know.
• 26:05
  Speaker 7: Because you never knew what you were going to do next.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: We were wicked little bastards, really.
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: Wicked little bastards.
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: Always getting into scraps with other kids and sometimes with
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: each other. Right from early on, when we were just nippers,
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: we had a gang in our street and we used
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: to have brick battles with kids from other streets.
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: We love to fight, Ron and I. We love to fight,
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: Ron and I.
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: Maybe it was because we came from a family of fighters.
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: Maybe because we were brought up in an area of
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: fighting men.
• 26:40
  Speaker 6: Where did it go wrong, do you think, for the
• 26:43
  Speaker 6: Cray Twins?
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: Well, they wasn't very brainy in many ways. And they
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: did get lured by some funny people and get led
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: into different situations that they couldn't handle. It was too
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: much for him.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: What did for Ronnie, of course, in the end, was
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: the shooting of George Cornell.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 27:04
  Speaker 6: What sort of bloke was Cornell?
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: Well, that's the tragedy. He grew up with George Cornell,
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: but he fell in love with a girl from South London,
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: from the end of the castle. Very nice girl, top shoplifter.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: Fell in love with her, married her and moved over
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: to her. And Reggie and Ronnie couldn't handle that. They
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: thought he had deserted them.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: Tension between George Cornell and the craze grew. On 9th
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: March 1966, Ron shot and killed him in the Blind
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: Beggar pub. Ron told me in that moment he'd never
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: felt so alive.
• 27:46
  Speaker 5: And George Cornell?
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Well, I just don't know what come over, Ronnie. That's
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: why I say with those... On those drugs, when he
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: got these manic urges, he would go out and do
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: something really dangerous. He was a dangerous person. And nobody
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: knew what he was going to do. He just went
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: and did it. I mean, he just walked in there
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: in front of witnesses and loads of people and shot
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: the man in the head, you know. And it's a
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: miracle shot because he's blind as a bear. He couldn't
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: see to drive or anything. It was just a fluke, really.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: The following year, Reggie killed two. He stabbed associate Jack
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: McVitie in the head, chest and stomach. Reg always said
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: to me that Jack the Hat got what he deserved
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: at that fateful party on Evering Road, calling him no
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: better than a sewer rat. Freddie Foreman was found guilty
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: of being an accessory to the murder.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Ronnie Clay smashed him in the face with a glass
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: and told him to go, to use the F word
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: and go. And he went out of the room and
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: he turned around and came back in again. And he
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: could have walked out of the house. He could have
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: gone out. And they sat there, and they were screaming
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: at each other and arguing. And it went on for
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: quite a considerable time. And there was witnesses there, two
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: young guys who were crew pairs, who made statements to
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: this effect. And a lot of other witnesses made statements.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: But they were never produced at the trial, those statements,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: which they should have been. And that would prove that
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: it wasn't premeditated to kill him that night but it
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: was got out of hand and that's when the knife
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: was produced by one of the firm pulled it out
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: of the kitchen and give it to one of the
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: twins which was a stupid thing to do and that's
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: how he got killed but it wasn't intentional that night
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Charlie was the one who always came to me and said,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: can you help the twins out? They're in trouble. They've
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: done something stupid. They've done something silly. When Jack the Hat,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I was in my bed at three o'clock in the morning.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: I was asleep when all this thing was going on.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: And they wanted me to help them out. clear up
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: the scene afterwards.
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: Were you involved in any of the killings or anything
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: like that?
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: Well, I avoided that.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Didn't want to know about things like that, you know.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Didn't mind a few rows, but not that sort of thing,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: Reggie always told me that only he and Ronnie knew
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: the truth about how Jack the Hat's body was disposed of.
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: Member of the firm, Billy, has his own theory.
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: What happened to the body? Burned it.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Burned it. A pole, they had a pole.
• 30:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: He had a breaker's yard and he used to smelt
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: a lot of alley.
• 30:36
  Speaker 7: That's in your book.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: So he used to dump them in a big deep freeze.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: That's right. He had a big chest freezer. He'd freeze
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: them up there for about a week. Then, you know,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: them saws they cut the meat and the fish with,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: he had a whole one of them. The old band saws.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: He used to saw them up, put them in the smelt,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: they'd have a gun in them now. That's where the
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: bodies went. But he's my mate, Jack. He's a good fella.
• 31:00
  Speaker 7: That's the nightlife for him, you know.
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: I mean, why did Reg kill McVitie, do you think?
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: Well, by then, Jack the Hat had got out of hand.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: He was fresh and saying nasty things about him and
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: everything like that. So, therefore, he had to go. There's
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: no doubt about it, yeah. A shame, cos at one
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: time he had been a nice guy.
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: It was the Jack McVitie and George Cornell murders that
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: gave Scotland Yard enough evidence.
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: To arrest the twins.
• 31:35
  Speaker 6: At 6 a.m.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: On the 9th of May 1968, the police smashed their
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: way into Ron's flat and arrested them both. The brothers
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: gave up without a struggle. Did you go to the
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: police with evidence about?
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: No.
• 31:49
  Speaker 7: You didn't do it. But then when I was in
• 31:53
  Speaker 7: prison and they got a little smuggled into me, if
• 31:58
  Speaker 7: They said, please come, see me, don't talk to them.
• 32:01
  Speaker 7: Why are they going to shoot my two kids?
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: Lenny decided the safer course was to put the Krays away.
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: He went into the witness stand and testified against them
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: in their 39-day murder trial.
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: The old Bailey was.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: Full every day and tickets in the public gallery were
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: selling for £ 5 each. Ronnie told me he was betrayed
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: in court by nearly every man in the firm. Lenny,
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: what about the trial itself? How much of an ordeal
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: for you was the trial of the Kray twins?
• 32:32
  Speaker 7: Oh, well, the judge looked at me in the box
• 32:35
  Speaker 7: and he says to me, you feel all right? I said,
• 32:39
  Speaker 7: not really. And they got me a chair to sit down,
• 32:42
  Speaker 7: because Ronnie Kray kept staring at me, pulling faces, you know,
• 32:47
  Speaker 7: because he was only just down there where I was here.
• 32:50
  Speaker 7: So they got me a chair. When I sat on
• 32:51
  Speaker 7: the chair, being little, I couldn't even see over the top.
• 32:54
  Speaker 7: LAUGHTER So that's why the judge done it, you know.
• 32:57
  Speaker 7: If they didn't have sent that letter in, I wouldn't
• 33:00
  Speaker 7: have spoke to the old Bill. You don't do them things.
• 33:03
  Speaker 7: You know, because I was a thief myself. I was
• 33:05
  Speaker 7: a dual thief and I've blown saves and that, you know.
• 33:08
  Speaker 7: But you don't grass up people.
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: It was at the Old Bailey that a young Bobby
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: Cummins got to know the twins.
• 33:17
  Speaker 8: It was funny because when I got dumped and sawn off,
• 33:19
  Speaker 8: that's when I met Reggie and Ronnie. Because they was
• 33:21
  Speaker 8: at the Old Bailey, it was the old Old Bailey
• 33:23
  Speaker 8: in them days, and they was walking along the landings.
• 33:25
  Speaker 8: because they was on trial when I was a young kid.
• 33:27
  Speaker 8: I knew who they was, but I didn't know them
• 33:29
  Speaker 8: at that time. And it was Ronnie. He went to me,
• 33:32
  Speaker 8: what are you doing here? I said, I'm here for
• 33:36
  Speaker 8: coming to sort out armed robbery. He went, you cheeky
• 33:38
  Speaker 8: little so-and-so. He said, fair play to you. He said,
• 33:41
  Speaker 8: I'll probably see a lot of you in here. I said,
• 33:42
  Speaker 8: you probably will.
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: On the 4th of March, 1969, the Crays were found
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: guilty of murder and sentenced to life. The judge said
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: they should serve no less than 30 years. Freddie Foreman
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: was sentenced to ten years inside for his part in
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: the Jack McVitie murder. A tricky question, Fred, but I'll
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: put it to you because you don't have to answer it.
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: Were there other murders, do you think? I mean, do
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: you think the Mad Axeman was murdered by them or
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: via them or others, do you think?
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't really want to discuss about the matter
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: because I stood trial for the murder.
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: But you were acquitted?
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: I was acquitted, yeah.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: And rightly so, but... And also I was charged with
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: another murder 12 years after it was supposed to have happened.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: And I was acquitted of that also. So I don't
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: want to really discuss or talk about things like that.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Because there's always people, families, it's always somebody's husband or
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: somebody's son, isn't it?
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: The Krays were finally banged up where the police wanted
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: them to be. Even though they tried and failed to
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: convict the twins of other murders.
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: The job was done.
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: Justice for George Cornell and Jack McFitty had been served.
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: I'm Fred Dynage, the official biographer of The Kray Twins.
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: Writing the book was a big responsibility, and I spent
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: four years visiting Reggie and Ronnie in prison, listening to
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: their stories. It wasn't always easy, like the reaction I
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: first got in Parkhurst.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: When you first come in, every moment is a treat.
• 35:23
  Speaker 8: Because we've had journalists before. I mean, I've had it myself,
• 35:25
  Speaker 8: where they want to do your life story, they want
• 35:27
  Speaker 8: to write the book, and then they write it the
• 35:30
  Speaker 8: way they want to write it. They don't write the
• 35:31
  Speaker 8: real way, and that made us very iffy about people
• 35:33
  Speaker 8: who wanted to write books, journalists, all that sort of thing.
• 35:36
  Speaker 8: You did it the right way, and so that gave
• 35:38
  Speaker 8: them a bit more confidence, and you was regular. You know,
• 35:41
  Speaker 8: you weren't just going up, getting a little bit, and
• 35:43
  Speaker 8: then doing your research, and then padding out the book.
• 35:46
  Speaker 8: You was actually writing how it should have been done.
• 35:48
  Speaker 8: You were well-respected, you know, for what you did, and
• 35:51
  Speaker 8: you're still well-respected today.
• 35:52
  Speaker 6: I respect you today.
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: So the Cray Twins book was due for publication and
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: certain newspapers showed a lot of interest in serialisation, particularly
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: the Sunday Times, the Sunday Mirror and.
• 36:05
  Speaker 6: The News of the World.
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: I urged the Cray Twins to go for the Sunday
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: Times because of the credibility that it would have given
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: them which is what they were really seeking after all
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: but of course the twins being the twins went for
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: the most money and went for the news of the world.
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: The Sunday Mirror who'd been very supportive up until then
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: were very very cross and they took a somewhat different
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: tack all of a sudden the headlines said fury over
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: new craze hall they were angry that the craze were
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: apparently going to receive some remuneration for writing their life
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: story and they suggested that I as the author should
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: be taken off the television. I was outraged at the
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: sheer hypocrisy of the whole thing, but then it all
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: died down, and time is, after all, a great healer.
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: For Reggie and Ronnie, time didn't heal. It just went
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: on and on in prison. Reggie said to me that
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: life in Parkhurst was a constant battle for sanity and survival.
• 37:03
  Speaker 8: Parkhurst, one of the most respectful places I've ever been
• 37:05
  Speaker 8: in my life, for good manners. Because we was all
• 37:07
  Speaker 8: tooled up, every one of us in there.
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: Tooled up, inside, present?
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
• 37:12
  Speaker 5: With what?
• 37:12
  Speaker 8: Well, we nicked a guard in Shearer. Reggie had half,
• 37:15
  Speaker 8: I had half, so I had a blade about that long.
• 37:18
  Speaker 8: And we would wrap that in a towel under there.
• 37:20
  Speaker 8: Then we used to have the grey overcoats in them days,
• 37:22
  Speaker 8: the poacher's coats, they used to call them. We carried
• 37:24
  Speaker 8: a blade in that when you ran the exercise yard.
• 37:26
  Speaker 8: Because if it kicked off, as I say, it was
• 37:28
  Speaker 8: a very, very respectful place because we'd all say good
• 37:30
  Speaker 8: morning to each other. No-one jumped the queue because everyone
• 37:33
  Speaker 8: was a potential killer in there. You know, Parker's was
• 37:35
  Speaker 8: Britain's Alcatraz.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: You know, you could be sitting there.
• 37:38
  Speaker 8: Watching telly, Fred, and someone come in with a boiling
• 37:40
  Speaker 8: jug of milk with sugar in it, tip it over
• 37:42
  Speaker 8: your head and burn your face off.
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: That's the reality of prison.
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: It was the same reality that Cray's biggest rivals, the
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: Richardson brothers, were living after the law caught up with
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: them too. At one point in Parkhurst, it turned out
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: that Charlie Richardson and Reggie Cray were about to do
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: time together.
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: Now, there was a war between Reggie Cray and Charlie Richardson.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: They were both banged up in Parkhurst at the same time.
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: potentially explosive situation. You, in fact, brokered the peace, did
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: you not?
• 38:11
  Speaker 8: Well, the thing was, I was friends with Charlie and Reggie.
• 38:15
  Speaker 8: It had been a long war going on between both families,
• 38:17
  Speaker 8: you know, and, you know, people were very heavy because
• 38:21
  Speaker 8: you've got to look at, if it goes off in there,
• 38:23
  Speaker 8: what side are you going to take? Because you couldn't
• 38:25
  Speaker 8: be true to two. You know, you had to take
• 38:27
  Speaker 8: one side or the other. It got to a stage
• 38:29
  Speaker 8: where people were going like, you know, the bond's got
• 38:31
  Speaker 8: to be made. You can't walk about wondering if it's
• 38:34
  Speaker 8: going to go big time. And so they had to
• 38:37
  Speaker 8: get someone who both of them knew and trusted. The
• 38:39
  Speaker 8: word was put, like, you go and sit with them
• 38:42
  Speaker 8: and sort it out. They was either gonna have to
• 38:44
  Speaker 8: live together or die.
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: For the Krays, dying in prison was a real possibility,
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: and prison life without their twin was hard. They saw
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: each other as often as the authorities would allow. Whenever
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: we meet, we spend the day talking. We don't talk
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: about the past, we talk about the future. Ron and
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: I have always believed we'll be released one day.
• 39:11
  Speaker 5: We have to believe it. It's all there is.
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: We talk about the houses we're living together in the
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: country and about the places we want to see.
• 39:18
  Speaker 5: Before we get too old.
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: For years now, we've talked about India and China, two
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: of the most beautiful and interesting countries in the world. But, Anna,
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: I right? In a sense, Reggie was always a marked
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: man inside Parkhurst. He'd always got a sort of price
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: on his head in as much as the young guns
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: in there. If they could have marked him in some way,
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: they'd get themselves a reputation.
• 39:43
  Speaker 8: Well, you've got to look at it, the hierarchy in prison,
• 39:46
  Speaker 8: you know. You're talking about people like Reggie Cray, Charlie Richardson.
• 39:51
  Speaker 8: If you cut one of them, I'm the guy who
• 39:53
  Speaker 8: cut Reggie Cray, now you're a celebrity.
• 39:56
  Speaker 5: You're going up the ladder.
• 39:58
  Speaker 8: But if we allowed that to happen, then the next
• 40:00
  Speaker 8: target would have been Charlie, then it would have gone
• 40:02
  Speaker 8: all round, and one of us, it might have been
• 40:04
  Speaker 8: my turn next time round. And the thing was, we
• 40:06
  Speaker 8: were prepared to kill them if necessary. We weren't worried
• 40:10
  Speaker 8: about that. If it comes down to that, better them
• 40:13
  Speaker 8: go than we go. But send a message out, you
• 40:14
  Speaker 8: hurt one of ours. then you're in all of that.
• 40:17
  Speaker 8: If they're trying to come and get you, you're not
• 40:19
  Speaker 8: getting away.
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: The twins' mum, Violet, visited them twice a week until
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: she died in 1982. Ronnie served most of his sentence
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: in the psychiatric hospital, Broadmoor. Reggie was a Category A
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: prisoner for much of his time in maximum security prisons
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: across the country. Do you think the law was a
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: bit harsh on Reg and Ronnie Cray?
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: I think they were... The law was very unfair to them,
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: very unfair. All these nice people like yourself, untouchable in
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: their world, and quite rightly, women and children, untouchable.
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: Even when their contemporaries had been released, the twins were
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: refused parole. They weren't given the opportunity to leave their
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: gangster days behind them, like Bobby Cummins. Now, your own
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: career has been quite remarkable because you were a baton
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: and you were a violent man.
• 41:15
  Speaker 5: You were a villain.
• 41:16
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: But by God, you've turned things around. Tell us what
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: you're up to now.
• 41:19
  Speaker 8: It was Charlie Richardson got me into education. He went
• 41:23
  Speaker 8: to meet Bobby and Reggie as well. To be fair,
• 41:26
  Speaker 8: Reggie went, Bobby, you know, you're going to want to
• 41:27
  Speaker 8: bang up here for the rest of your life or
• 41:29
  Speaker 8: dead or you can.
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: Go the right way. So your charity is called Unlock.
• 41:33
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 41:34
  Speaker 8: It's Unlock, National Association of Reform Defenders. And these kids
• 41:38
  Speaker 8: matter to me.
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: They're my kids.
• 41:39
  Speaker 6: They're my kids dying on the street.
• 41:41
  Speaker 8: And I don't want my kids for the future and
• 41:44
  Speaker 8: laying on the bed that me, Reggie and Ronnie and
• 41:47
  Speaker 8: Charlie laid on the bed that 200 people slept on
• 41:50
  Speaker 8: before us, cut their wrists and urinated in. God knows
• 41:53
  Speaker 8: what else they've done. If you want people to change,
• 41:57
  Speaker 8: what you've got to give them is the opportunity to change.
• 42:00
  Speaker 8: The craze never had the opportunity.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: I wonder what would have happened if the craze had
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: been given the chance to go straight. When I was
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: writing the book, both twins told me they'd lead an
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: honest life if released. Ronnie never left Broadmoor, and Reggie
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: was only released on compassionate grounds a few weeks before
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: he died.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: I was with him, Reggie, when he died. I'd sat
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: up next to him in the bed when I released him.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: And Joey Powell and Johnny Nash... We went down to
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: see him at this hotel. And I sat on the
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: bed with him while he took his last breath, you know.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: It's weird that we went there that day. It seemed
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: like he was waiting to see us before he passed away.
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: It was weird.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: The whole family died in prison, sad, really.
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: Before Reggie died, was he able to speak to you
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: at all? Yeah, yeah.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: Oh, he was very, yeah. We left him and he said,
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: don't go. He said, you're coming back. We said, we're
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: going to the bar because the doctor arrived to give
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: him an injection. And when we went back down again,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: he was completely unconscious. Then he died there. I sat
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: on the side of the bed with him.
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: How did you feel?
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, it was like the finish of it.
• 43:26
  Speaker 5: I know, really.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: Sad, sad.
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: The Krays told me how loyal Freddie had been throughout
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: their lives, so it seemed fitting then that Freddie should
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: be with him in Reggie's last moments. Reg died from
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: cancer at the age of 66. Ronnie suffered a heart
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: attack and died at 61. Their older brother, Charlie, died
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: aged 73. So all three Krays ended their lives, if
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: you like, here, but you didn't come to any of
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: those services?
• 43:58
  Speaker 8: No, I didn't come to the services out of respect. And,
• 44:01
  Speaker 8: you know, people would say, oh, yeah, go to the funeral.
• 44:04
  Speaker 8: It turned into a circus, and I didn't like that.
• 44:07
  Speaker 8: I keep them in my heart. You know, I've got
• 44:09
  Speaker 8: my memories when we used to laugh, have a cup
• 44:11
  Speaker 8: of tea together, and discuss villainy together. And I'm not
• 44:14
  Speaker 8: condoning what they did, you know. But in that life,
• 44:18
  Speaker 8: we all did it because that was our life.
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: So what do the people I met think about the
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: extraordinary Kray story?
• 44:28
  Speaker 8: I'll never forget one thing Ronnie said. Never make excuses
• 44:32
  Speaker 8: for what I've done. He didn't regret anything.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: He did it his way. And Reggie was the same.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: Reggie was the same.
• 44:40
  Speaker 8: They lived their life the way they meant to live it,
• 44:42
  Speaker 8: and they lived by their rules. And they had code
• 44:44
  Speaker 8: of ethics, and they never sold out.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: It's surprising how many followers they've got all over the country,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: you know?
• 44:50
  Speaker 5: So how can they still do that?
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: How can they still have that kind of charisma, if
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: you like, all these years?
• 44:56
  Speaker 7: You never had gangsters like them, did you, in Easton?
• 45:00
  Speaker 7: You never get gangsters like them.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: What sort of a legacy does it leave for young
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: generations that are coming through to say, well, look what
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: happened to them. You want to follow in their footsteps?
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: The three brothers all died in prison. Sad, sad story.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: And it doesn't advertise committing crime.
• 45:21
  Speaker 5: Does it?
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: So what have I learned then from this journey back
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: into the Kray's legacy?
• 45:27
  Speaker 5: Quite a lot, actually.
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: I've learned a number of things I didn't know about
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: Reggie and Ronnie Kray. I've certainly learned a lot about
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: the people who surrounded them. And most surprising of all,
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: I think, in many ways, is I've actually learned, I think,
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: that Jack McVitie and George Cornell, their two victims, especially Cornell,
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: were actually nicer men than Reggie and Ronnie ever portrayed
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: to me. But the biggest lesson of all, I suppose,
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: is the one that I already knew, and that is,
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: except in exceptional circumstances, crime really doesn't pay. Certainly for
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: Reggie and Ronnie Cray, it didn't. Well, as London woke
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: up on that sunny May morning in 1968 and two
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: sleepy gangsters were driven at record speed to Scotland Yard,
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: we knew only one thing. The party was over, but
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: it had been great while it lasted.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: MUSIC PLAYS
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: Thank you.