Latest / The Occult Rejects / Cunning Folk and Practical Magic with Dr. Stanmore

Transcript

Cunning Folk and Practical Magic with Dr. Stanmore · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: What's going to happen? What I Welcome back to the
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Occult Rejects Today. On the Occult Rejects, we are joined
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: by doctor Tabitha Stanley, historian of magic and witchcraft and
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: author of Cunning Folk Life in the Era of Practical Magic.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: This is one of those subjects that immediately changes the
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: way we think about the occult, because cunning folk were
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: not just fantasy figures, horror movie witches, or secret lodge
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: magicians hiding in the shadows. They were practical magical workers.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: People went to them because something had gone wrong. A
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: child was sick, a cow was bewitched, a lover had vanished,
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: silver spoons had been stone, a curse was suspected, a
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: treasure was buried somewhere under the earth. But no one
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: wanted to disturb the spirits, fairies, or unseen forces that
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: might be guarding it. What makes this world so fascinating
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: is that magic was not always separate from normal life.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: It sat right in the middle of the village, the household,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: the churchyard, the court room, the sick room, and the marketplace.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: It was part fear, part faith, part survival, part psychology.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Part religion and part business. The cutting person lived in
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: that strange metal ground between healer and suspect, helper and fraud,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: holy person and dangerous outsider. Today we are not just
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: asking whether people believe the magic. That is too simple.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: We are asking what magic did for people, What problems
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: did it solve? What fears did it organize? What hope
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: did it offer? When? What hope did it offer when medicine, law, family,
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: and the church could not give people the answer they needed.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Because in the era, practical magic to supernatural was not abstract,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: It was not decoration. It was a tool people reached
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: for when life became unbearable, confusing, dangerous, or desperate. So
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: today we are talking about cunning, folk service, magic, love, spells, lust, treasure, healing, charms, witchcraft, accusations, fairies, astrology, spirits, fraud, faith,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: and the strange history of ordinary people trying to survive
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: with extraordinary help. But before we introduce the guest, let
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: me introduce the other rejects we got joined in us today.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: We got the man himself, the storyteller, Robbie Marks with
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: us today. Very happy for this. What is going on? Robbie?
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, good to be on. Thanks for having me and
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: good to meet chief Doctor. I'm excited to see where
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: the skies. I've researched a lot into a medieval and
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: ancient folklore magic. I am Our Marx or Robbie Marx,
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: artist illustrator and if you'd like to check out myself,
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: you can go to my link tree which is link
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: tree r mr x and that'll pull up everything I do.
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: Thanks Nick, of.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Course, no, thank you for making it. Robbie always appreciate
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: it when you can. And we got Kaiva Rose with us.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: What is going on? Kaiva? How are you? It's great
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: to see you here.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, great, thanks for having me again. It's nice to
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: meet you, Tabitha. I'm excited to learn more about cunning folk.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I've heard it in many passings, just kind of people
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: talking about different things, so I have a very small
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: idea of what it is. But after the description that
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: you know Nick just read, I'm excited to learn more.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: So thanks for coming on and I'm happy to be
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: here and you can find me at eleven Kaiba Rose
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: thirty three dot com.
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: I'm on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: I'm a traditional strologer, so I do post daily and
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: weekly videos for.
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: The aspects that are happening, and yeah, I'm grateful to
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: be here.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Thank you, No, thank you, I appreciate you making it.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: And my man Brandon, what is going on, maggiz, Hey, how.
• 3:55
  Speaker 6: Are we all doing out there today? It's so great
• 3:58
  Speaker 6: to be here with such a great crew. It's wonderful
• 4:01
  Speaker 6: to meet doctor Tabitha stan Moore. Yeah, this is gonna
• 4:04
  Speaker 6: be exciting conversation because I think the history of the
• 4:09
  Speaker 6: occult or esoteric traditions when it comes to actually what
• 4:13
  Speaker 6: was going on, is really important. And as we know,
• 4:15
  Speaker 6: history in a way is made up, but there's a
• 4:18
  Speaker 6: way to kind of get into the nitty gritty of
• 4:21
  Speaker 6: all things. And so I'm excited to do just that
• 4:24
  Speaker 6: with doctor Tabitha's stand More, everyone out there knows where
• 4:27
  Speaker 6: they can find me magas in the media, subscribe, like
• 4:31
  Speaker 6: can share to me the great Kaiva Rose, the Robbie
• 4:35
  Speaker 6: of the Marx, and the great Electric Head. We are
• 4:37
  Speaker 6: all here building the community that is hopefully going to
• 4:41
  Speaker 6: take on take down the great archons around us.
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: This should be a great one. Thank you Nick as.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Always, No, thank you, I appreciate you making it and
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: for people listening there catching the live it wasn't on
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: my end, it was on Maggus's end. If you missed it.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: We did do a live last night and I think
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: it was an amazing show. I think it was Bit
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: and Fire, so go check it out. It was really
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: it was a really good topic and I think really
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: good discussions for real discussions, too serious stuff. Yeah, so yeah,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: definitely check that out and thank you Magis for making
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: it as usual of course. And finally, finally the guest herself,
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: doctor Tabitha Staanmore, how are you? Thank you very much
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: for coming on. Please let everybody know anything you'd like
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: to promote a plug?
• 5:22
  Speaker 7: Hi, everybody, incredible, dynamic group of people. This is very exciting.
• 5:28
  Speaker 7: I'm also very aware I'm the only one with an
• 5:29
  Speaker 7: English accent here, so I'm just going to sort of
• 5:31
  Speaker 7: try to play with that flag. Yeah, so well, thank
• 5:35
  Speaker 7: you for the intro. What do I want to share?
• 5:37
  Speaker 7: I mean, I guess I'm on Instagram at Tabitha Standmore
• 5:41
  Speaker 7: and I yeah. I'm a historian of late medieval and
• 5:45
  Speaker 7: early modern magic and witchcraft. I'm currently writing a book
• 5:48
  Speaker 7: on the witch trials in Cambridge share in the sixteen forties,
• 5:52
  Speaker 7: which is going to be called The devil in the Fens,
• 5:55
  Speaker 7: and I will talk about that until people tell me
• 5:57
  Speaker 7: to shut up. So maybe we'll get into that later.
• 6:00
  Speaker 7: It's not going to be out for a while yet,
• 6:01
  Speaker 7: but I am going to be ranting about it a
• 6:03
  Speaker 7: lot on social media for the next week year or so.
• 6:07
  Speaker 7: So yeah, follow along for that.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: That's awesome, nice, nice, Thank you so much for making it.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate it. Kind of like what Kaiva was
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: saying before. You know, we've heard cunning folk, you know,
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: and stuff like that mentioned kind of in passing unless
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: you got into it. I never did for myself, but
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: for the listeners who again might have just heard cunning
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: folk and don't know really what it is. What does
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: that term mean to you?
• 6:34
  Speaker 7: That's a good question. So I think I use it
• 6:37
  Speaker 7: as a casual term to refer to people who practice
• 6:41
  Speaker 7: useful magic, so people who are in touch with some
• 6:46
  Speaker 7: kind of supernatural or preternatural force and uses it to
• 6:51
  Speaker 7: create some kind of impact in the world. It can
• 6:53
  Speaker 7: be good, it can be bad, but it has to
• 6:56
  Speaker 7: be some kind of sort of practical use, as opposed
• 6:58
  Speaker 7: to something kind of theoretical or esoteric like you might
• 7:01
  Speaker 7: expect from your ritual magicians who are just talking to
• 7:04
  Speaker 7: angels just to find out random bits of knowledge about
• 7:06
  Speaker 7: the universe. In my research, I tend to use either
• 7:11
  Speaker 7: cunning folk or sort of cunning man, cunning woman, cunning person,
• 7:17
  Speaker 7: or service magician. That's my main favorite word, because that
• 7:21
  Speaker 7: refers to people who used to sell their services of
• 7:27
  Speaker 7: you know, sort of magical services for a fee to
• 7:30
  Speaker 7: their neighbors or their friends. And as we've got sort
• 7:33
  Speaker 7: of more and more technology to others on the Internet,
• 7:36
  Speaker 7: and it's that kind of ability to sort of harness
• 7:40
  Speaker 7: the powers of whatever deity or sort of being you
• 7:45
  Speaker 7: want to and sort of direct that into something which
• 7:48
  Speaker 7: is going to give a positive, hopefully or just practical
• 7:50
  Speaker 7: outcome to others, but always in exchange for something. And
• 7:54
  Speaker 7: that kind of that business element is something that really
• 7:56
  Speaker 7: fascinates me.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much for that that explanation. Would you
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: consider like maybe Pennsylvania Dutch like type of a cunning folk.
• 8:07
  Speaker 7: I'm not familiar with what Pennsylvania Dutch do in that sense,
• 8:12
  Speaker 7: so please describe to.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Me and I'll tell you, well, that's a lot of
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: like they make a lot of like, you know, a
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: little I wouldn't say Talismans but things like talismans. To me,
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: it would be a lot of like, you know, we
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: want our crops to grow breado, so I'm going to
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: contact this thing or this supposedly someone sick or my
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: neighbor pissed me off, so I'm going to do this.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: It's a lot of like I would say, a lot
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: of stuff in the mundane world that you're actually dealing
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: with more very artistic. I think they kind of had
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: like a Christian flair.
• 8:39
  Speaker 7: Though, yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any sort
• 8:42
  Speaker 7: of contradiction between being Christian and practicing some sort of
• 8:45
  Speaker 7: supernatural activity and yeah, sort of you seeing that as magic.
• 8:50
  Speaker 7: I don't think that's a lot of people who well,
• 8:53
  Speaker 7: in my research, I look at a lot of priests,
• 8:56
  Speaker 7: for example, in the sixteenth century who were using holy
• 9:01
  Speaker 7: water or communion bread to blessed fields and makes you know,
• 9:04
  Speaker 7: a sort of a harvest more successful, or to sort
• 9:07
  Speaker 7: of cure illnesses among their parishioners. And they wouldn't have
• 9:11
  Speaker 7: seen themselves as magicians, but they definitely were practicing what
• 9:14
  Speaker 7: I would call a form of magic. And sometimes and
• 9:18
  Speaker 7: sometimes the church would agree with me on that the
• 9:21
  Speaker 7: priest would be sort of told off for practicing magic
• 9:23
  Speaker 7: alongside their sort of you know, priestly duties, and so
• 9:27
  Speaker 7: there is that this sort of this this liminal space
• 9:31
  Speaker 7: I think, between what people would call magic on in
• 9:34
  Speaker 7: the day to day and what is technically magic according
• 9:38
  Speaker 7: to sort of some kind of strict definition. So yeah,
• 9:41
  Speaker 7: I think it's kind of in the eye of the beholder.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, go ahead.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: Well, I was going to say, when you're looking at
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: as far as these cunning folk in the idea of
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: this knowledge that superseded the general masses, can we almost
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: say that it's a sort of a technology that they
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: have just a higher understanding and they're using the natural
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: forms to precipitate means that they've gained through understanding versus
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: actual physical you know, drawing down you know.
• 10:23
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I think some parts of that definitely. I think
• 10:26
  Speaker 7: there's a huge as there is today, there's a huge
• 10:29
  Speaker 7: range of types of magical practice, right, So I think
• 10:35
  Speaker 7: those who were practicing astrology, or who were contacting and
• 10:39
  Speaker 7: sort of summoning demons, they probably would have actually seen
• 10:42
  Speaker 7: themselves doing more of a kind of technological or scientific
• 10:45
  Speaker 7: practice than those who were potentially consulting theories or just
• 10:49
  Speaker 7: sort of reciting words of power. A lot of the
• 10:53
  Speaker 7: spells I look at from the sixteen seventeenth centuries use
• 10:57
  Speaker 7: prayers as the sort of the basis because they're very
• 11:01
  Speaker 7: aware that, you know, Latin, especially kind of scripture has
• 11:08
  Speaker 7: a fundamental inherent power to it, so it doesn't really
• 11:11
  Speaker 7: matter how somebody uses, it's about the kind of accessing
• 11:15
  Speaker 7: that power. So I guess in that sense it's sort
• 11:17
  Speaker 7: of is a technology, but I wouldn't say it's as
• 11:20
  Speaker 7: schematized as when you're looking at astrological processes, for example,
• 11:24
  Speaker 7: which was very much seen as a science and only
• 11:26
  Speaker 7: some people would have access to that knowledge, and that
• 11:28
  Speaker 7: that does become quite a high level technological tool that
• 11:32
  Speaker 7: only the very rich and the very well educated would
• 11:34
  Speaker 7: have access to. So yeah, combination of the two.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: I think contest that to science.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: And yeah, absolutely, I mean the traditional forum for sure.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: I would say, like the way that astrology is unfortunately
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: practice right now most people practice it is it is
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: like some wouy thing. And that's one of my favorite
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: things is when people put astrology into the wou category,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: because it's so not WU like if I can tell
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: you about your daughter's boyfriend, I don't think that's a
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: WO thing, you know what I mean, Like it's in
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: the chart, and so I think that's where Yeah, I agree,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: like it's it's definitely a science.
• 12:08
  Speaker 7: That's so what do you mean by wo Like, where's
• 12:13
  Speaker 7: your where's your WU line?
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Well, well, my WU line is I think when people
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: start to act like it's just something that magically happens,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: like there's no explanation why something happens. And I think
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: the WU part comes in is because people say they
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: are their sun sign or they are their moon sign,
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: and so it becomes this very like detached from the
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: concrete facts of who you are and more this like oh,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna guide myself based on my Sun and my
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: moon and that's all that I am, you know what
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: I mean. So yeah, So my WU line is the
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: fact that, like astrology is like different forms of understanding time.
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: So there's like the years, the days, the months, and.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Like all these different time forms and even just being
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: able to look at your chart and isolate it to
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: see it and also years based on the way that
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: it's move and so there's all these different timing techniques.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: So I guess I always feel it's more of a
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: science because yeah, the WU part just doesn't. When I
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: think of WU, I think of people who are just dabbling,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: I think, and that's where Yeah, I know, like when
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: they put in that category, because I mean, like sometimes
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: astrological magic, everybody's making talismans and all these things, right,
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: how much of that actually works?
• 13:21
  Speaker 5: I don't actually know.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: And so I think there's a level of WU there
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: because you're trusting that something that you randomly created might
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: be working for you might also not be you know.
• 13:31
  Speaker 7: Okay, so kind of like vibes thus his theory.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, that's a really good.
• 13:38
  Speaker 7: Just use all the technical tomes today.
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah that works.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I think it is too a
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: horrible way that I'm trying to like word it. But
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: like what's that saying? Like I couldn't I couldn't tell
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: you what porn is, but I can tell you when
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: I see it. Like I couldn't describe it, but I
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: can tell you when I see it. It's almost like
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: with the WU stuff. It's hard to explain, but when
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: I see it, I know, like, oh God, this is
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I can't.
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:02
  Speaker 6: Yes, similarly to the whole WOO part of it is,
• 14:04
  Speaker 6: it's like oh.
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: You you're a Gemini. I'm a Gemini.
• 14:08
  Speaker 6: Oh I don't like that person because they're a Capricorn.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: Oh that's weird.
• 14:12
  Speaker 6: Because it's an aries and so like the line to
• 14:15
  Speaker 6: fully expand on what she's talking about is like, it's like, no,
• 14:18
  Speaker 6: you are not that.
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: You are a vast conglomerate of.
• 14:22
  Speaker 6: A chart of how the planet's planet was rising and
• 14:26
  Speaker 6: the constellation that and then everything else and these forces
• 14:30
  Speaker 6: of nature that we're putting upon you as your consciousness
• 14:34
  Speaker 6: is being born into this world, and then the timings
• 14:37
  Speaker 6: as it all is moving upon it. It's a technology
• 14:40
  Speaker 6: and there are that's the theories are actually objective in
• 14:45
  Speaker 6: the basis of how astronomy and astrology works on the
• 14:48
  Speaker 6: plant on the planet and you involvement in it.
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: If that is that a good way? Kaiva? Is that
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: a good also way of.
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: Saying that, Yeah, I think you all did a great job.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate the vibes versus the you know, the
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: vibes of this theory, I think is like a really good point,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: because yeah, it is odd as vibes.
• 15:04
  Speaker 5: They're not all vibes. I mean, like you know, the
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: will partners for sure. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
• 15:09
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean that that makes perfect sense. Like the
• 15:11
  Speaker 7: the So I'm going to be honest, I ask astrology
• 15:15
  Speaker 7: is way too complicated for me. I don't really understand it,
• 15:19
  Speaker 7: but I do. So I've read quite a few sort
• 15:21
  Speaker 7: of astrological manuals from the sort of fifteenth through to
• 15:25
  Speaker 7: seventeenth centuries, and they are so complicated and the kind
• 15:28
  Speaker 7: of the the sort of the the sort of diagnostic
• 15:30
  Speaker 7: manuals even like I kind of like, well, you know,
• 15:33
  Speaker 7: if you're born under this, you know, constellation, that's fine,
• 15:36
  Speaker 7: but also you know whereabouts are you in the world,
• 15:38
  Speaker 7: and how does that affect this? And it just sort
• 15:39
  Speaker 7: of it's just pages and pages and pages of like
• 15:43
  Speaker 7: very very like increasingly technical definitions of what exactly is
• 15:46
  Speaker 7: going on with you as a person and what's going
• 15:47
  Speaker 7: to affect your life. So yeah, no, that that that
• 15:50
  Speaker 7: tracks Now.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: One thing I didn't want to ask you because you
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: kind of mentioned it before, and I wanted to get
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: people's I guess idea what it means, or at least
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: from you when we also say, like when you say
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: practical magic, what does that actually mean in daily life?
• 16:07
  Speaker 7: Mm hmm, many things. So I mean, yeah, so I
• 16:14
  Speaker 7: spent the first year of my PhD trying to work
• 16:16
  Speaker 7: out exactly what magic was, and your your definition of
• 16:19
  Speaker 7: sort of the porn definition kind of works for it
• 16:22
  Speaker 7: in a lot of ways. But yeah, I think what
• 16:25
  Speaker 7: I what I am interested in is kind of the
• 16:26
  Speaker 7: practical uses people to put it to, and it's kind
• 16:32
  Speaker 7: of universal applications. So I think, yeah, the main ones
• 16:37
  Speaker 7: that I always kind of go back to are magic
• 16:40
  Speaker 7: to heal people, magic to tell the future, magic to
• 16:46
  Speaker 7: affect relationships in some way, can be fall in love,
• 16:49
  Speaker 7: fall out of love, you know, sort of break people up,
• 16:52
  Speaker 7: all sorts of things, protection, finding lost and stolen goods
• 16:58
  Speaker 7: and buried treasure, and uh, there's one other I always forget.
• 17:05
  Speaker 7: It's kind of like Name of the Seven Dwarves is
• 17:06
  Speaker 7: really hard, but yeah, it's kind of like it. It's
• 17:09
  Speaker 7: those I guess five things that are normally used in
• 17:13
  Speaker 7: the past, and I think you can still see the
• 17:15
  Speaker 7: exactly the same spells being sold today by practitioners, and
• 17:21
  Speaker 7: I think they just speak to sort of basic universal vulnerabilities, right, Like,
• 17:24
  Speaker 7: these are all things that we find very very hard
• 17:27
  Speaker 7: to control, and therefore we kind of turn to magic
• 17:29
  Speaker 7: to them, and you actually see that even with the pandemic,
• 17:32
  Speaker 7: there was a huge spike in demand for fortune telling
• 17:35
  Speaker 7: services because we had no idea what was going to
• 17:37
  Speaker 7: happen next. And it was fine watching the death toll
• 17:40
  Speaker 7: rack up every day and so you know, checking the
• 17:42
  Speaker 7: health reports, but that doesn't actually tell you when things
• 17:44
  Speaker 7: are going to end. So kind of, yeah, referring to
• 17:47
  Speaker 7: magic and even sort of buying health spells and that
• 17:50
  Speaker 7: kind of thing sort of rocketed as well. So that's
• 17:53
  Speaker 7: what I mean about the practical things, like just really
• 17:55
  Speaker 7: mundane problems that people need to solve. Yeah, magic is
• 18:00
  Speaker 7: always been there as a way to do that.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: No, I totally get that. I feel like, Oh, I
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: guess depending on how you kind of come into the
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: magical with witchcraft life. I feel like even as a
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: ceremonial magician, I still was like kind of very much
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: that way at first. Yeah, kind of just like anything
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: any normal thing going on in your life, you'll just
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: try to give it a boost to go in the
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: direction I guess you wanted to go in.
• 18:26
  Speaker 7: That sounds alt right.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Do anybody have anything they wanted to ask?
• 18:29
  Speaker 7: Yeah?
• 18:30
  Speaker 6: Do you find that in the times that you're doing, Like,
• 18:33
  Speaker 6: would you say the fourteenth fifteenth century work that you
• 18:36
  Speaker 6: are researching, is that the timeframe correct.
• 18:39
  Speaker 7: Fourteenth through to seventeenth, So yeah.
• 18:43
  Speaker 6: Perfect, And so my question is, then, do you find
• 18:47
  Speaker 6: that the cunning folk that that the mental state, their
• 18:52
  Speaker 6: worldview is completely different than the current practical magic worldview
• 18:56
  Speaker 6: that people have, Like the way you see and experience
• 18:59
  Speaker 6: reality through your research is different like of those people
• 19:02
  Speaker 6: in that time frame.
• 19:05
  Speaker 7: That's very interesting question, I think in yeah, inevitably it
• 19:10
  Speaker 7: is right. I mean, the world has changed a lot
• 19:12
  Speaker 7: in the last four hundred years, and things that we
• 19:17
  Speaker 7: now count as normal were just completely unimaginable to them.
• 19:20
  Speaker 7: So in that sense, yes, I think that we are
• 19:22
  Speaker 7: living in a very different time my my my frame
• 19:25
  Speaker 7: of reference is very different to theirs. I think also,
• 19:29
  Speaker 7: like even the most can even a person who's the
• 19:34
  Speaker 7: most connected to nature in the world right now, will
• 19:38
  Speaker 7: have nothing on somebody who is living in the sixteenth century,
• 19:40
  Speaker 7: you know, like they're just right, I mean, does the
• 19:44
  Speaker 7: connected to the natural world in a way that we
• 19:45
  Speaker 7: can't really fathom? And yeah, so I think that's sort
• 19:50
  Speaker 7: of that. I think there's a fundamental animism within early
• 19:54
  Speaker 7: modern people's lives that very few people are in touch
• 19:57
  Speaker 7: with now, and you know that includes in you know,
• 20:00
  Speaker 7: sort of Christian societies, which is what I look at.
• 20:02
  Speaker 7: They're still sort of seeing spirits in everything all the time,
• 20:07
  Speaker 7: and trees aren't magical, and animals can speak, and you know,
• 20:10
  Speaker 7: they're just like there's this whole world that they accept
• 20:13
  Speaker 7: as normal that we just don't really. But I also, yeah,
• 20:18
  Speaker 7: I think that, Yeah, I mean, my research was kind
• 20:22
  Speaker 7: of informed by my background to an extent. My mum
• 20:26
  Speaker 7: raised me pagan, and I spent a lot of time
• 20:29
  Speaker 7: talking to trees as a kid and sort of looking
• 20:31
  Speaker 7: for fairies in the bottom of the garden and that
• 20:33
  Speaker 7: sort of thing. And I kind of I've suspended disbelief
• 20:38
  Speaker 7: and kind of also suspended belief to an extent as
• 20:40
  Speaker 7: an adult so that I can do my research a
• 20:42
  Speaker 7: little bit more objectively, because I don't really want to
• 20:45
  Speaker 7: project myself onto the past. But I do think that
• 20:49
  Speaker 7: those experiences as a kid has meant that I can
• 20:54
  Speaker 7: look at this source material without judging it too harshly
• 20:58
  Speaker 7: or sort of particularly skeptical lens, which I think is
• 21:00
  Speaker 7: really important. If you look at the kinds of histories
• 21:04
  Speaker 7: of magic that were being written in the twentieth century.
• 21:07
  Speaker 7: They are just so judgmental, and they kind of they
• 21:10
  Speaker 7: see kind of belief in magic because some kind of
• 21:12
  Speaker 7: psychosis basically, especially the witch trials as hysteria, and that
• 21:18
  Speaker 7: doesn't help anybody, you know, Like, if you don't understand
• 21:21
  Speaker 7: the mindset, you're not really studying the past. So yeah,
• 21:25
  Speaker 7: I kind of very much removed from the past, but also, yeah,
• 21:28
  Speaker 7: I'm trying to be as compassionate and empathetic towards the
• 21:30
  Speaker 7: past as possible.
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, no, that makes that makes sense.
• 21:34
  Speaker 6: It's fascinating because that's something that even Nick and I
• 21:38
  Speaker 6: talked about last night and are shown. Something I'm continuing
• 21:40
  Speaker 6: to bring back in my show is that in this
• 21:43
  Speaker 6: postmodern mechanistic worldview which we've found ourselves in, how we've
• 21:47
  Speaker 6: separated subject and object through Cartesian rationalism and the Enlightenment,
• 21:52
  Speaker 6: I find that that has gotten us really far to
• 21:54
  Speaker 6: be able to analyze and be able to kind of
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: compartmentalize research and to view reality in a certain way. However,
• 22:03
  Speaker 6: it's also done a massive detriment to our consciousness as
• 22:08
  Speaker 6: it's interacting with the world. So we've lost or you know,
• 22:12
  Speaker 6: it's kind of been concealed this magical worldview, this how.
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: To create meaning in the world.
• 22:19
  Speaker 6: And I feel like in the past, through the time
• 22:22
  Speaker 6: through thirteen hundred through the seventeen hundreds, that is when
• 22:24
  Speaker 6: this was taking place, especially now all of a sudden
• 22:29
  Speaker 6: from the sixteen hundreds onward, where all of a sudden,
• 22:31
  Speaker 6: you've completely demolished the magical worldview and we've lost touch
• 22:35
  Speaker 6: with part of our soul. And I think it's like
• 22:37
  Speaker 6: work as yours. I would like to do more research
• 22:40
  Speaker 6: into it. I only have done a little, very little bit.
• 22:43
  Speaker 6: But any kind of work that's getting back to our
• 22:45
  Speaker 6: magical worldview and more esoteric I think is really important.
• 22:50
  Speaker 6: And to not always I think there's something about that
• 22:54
  Speaker 6: child that you were being raised to speak to trees
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: and all these things. There's some beautiful about that, and
• 23:01
  Speaker 6: that's not to be lost, but to be integrated into
• 23:04
  Speaker 6: our work. And then how the mind works is how
• 23:06
  Speaker 6: we compartmentalize things. Is really good to be able to
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: have the researcher part of you have the part of
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: us that are the pagans who are interacting with trees
• 23:14
  Speaker 6: and spirits and fake creatures, and so there's something beautiful
• 23:17
  Speaker 6: about that. So I let's thank you for your question,
• 23:20
  Speaker 6: right your answer.
• 23:23
  Speaker 7: Yeah, no, thank you know, I completely agree with you,
• 23:26
  Speaker 7: and I think it's also it's it's too easy, I
• 23:28
  Speaker 7: think to sort of see Cartesianism as something which sort
• 23:31
  Speaker 7: of just like you know, arrived and then all of
• 23:33
  Speaker 7: a sudden the world changed, like it was. Actually I
• 23:35
  Speaker 7: think it was a lot slower process than that, And
• 23:37
  Speaker 7: we've seen like this, as you say, the dualism that
• 23:40
  Speaker 7: I think we now live with. You're right, Like, I
• 23:42
  Speaker 7: think it really restricts human experience, and you know we
• 23:47
  Speaker 7: see that all the time. We also know it doesn't work, right,
• 23:49
  Speaker 7: I mean, like the amount of research that goes into
• 23:52
  Speaker 7: sort of human behavior and realizing that no, we're actually
• 23:55
  Speaker 7: not rational creatures. Like if you give us rational decision making,
• 23:58
  Speaker 7: then we just panic and start eating biscuits. You know,
• 24:00
  Speaker 7: like it doesn't work. But like I think it took
• 24:05
  Speaker 7: a long time for us to get to this point.
• 24:06
  Speaker 7: Like you know, in the seventeenth century, you know, yes,
• 24:09
  Speaker 7: Descartes was doing his thing, nobody was listening, nobody agreed,
• 24:14
  Speaker 7: and then you know, we've kind of got further and
• 24:16
  Speaker 7: further away from I don't know, having a whole connected
• 24:20
  Speaker 7: human In the last four hundred years and it's really sad.
• 24:22
  Speaker 7: It's sad to see that sort of that I don't know,
• 24:25
  Speaker 7: spiritual isn't increasingly lost as we go forward. It's but yeah,
• 24:31
  Speaker 7: I think I think it's always kind of turning your
• 24:32
  Speaker 7: corner hopefully and realizing that this this mechanism, mechanization isn't
• 24:37
  Speaker 7: really working what hope.
• 24:39
  Speaker 6: So yeah, no, I agree, And interesting enough, it's funny
• 24:42
  Speaker 6: that like we always feel few Cartesianism as I do,
• 24:46
  Speaker 6: like it is a dualism or a dualistic However, he
• 24:48
  Speaker 6: always had that third thing and he just kind of
• 24:51
  Speaker 6: placed it in there and he's all like, and then
• 24:53
  Speaker 6: there's God, I don't know what to do with that,
• 24:55
  Speaker 6: but uh, here we go subject object never the Twain
• 24:58
  Speaker 6: shall meet and let's figure it out.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: So that's yeah. Last time with me and Brandon were talking,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know because I well, for me, I would
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: see that maybe these more of like cunning folk would
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: be a little bit different than maybe some of like
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: the Renaissance people, Grim Moore people. But I like, you know,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: I was talking about last night, if you go and
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: look at what people in the Renaissance were doing, like
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: people like Robert Flood, Michael Meyer, Jacob Boehm, Gidano Bruno.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: You go and look at what those people were writing about,
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: and like some of these people, I don't think I
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: mentioned too many of them. I know Robert Flood was,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: and there's other people I can't remember. They're drawing the
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: eyeb all, the brains to the nervous system. You know,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: they're including stuff about the music of the spheres or
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: even music itself. I mean, Michael Meyer, you had emblems,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: you had music, and then you had stuff you were
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: supposed to read. It was like literally multimedia before it
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: was even before we had multimedia. And we're not doing
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: that now.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: No.
• 26:01
  Speaker 7: I yeah, I think that specialization, I think is so sad.
• 26:05
  Speaker 7: You know, the idea that you specialize in in a
• 26:07
  Speaker 7: subject now and that is your thing for the rest
• 26:10
  Speaker 7: of your life, is that that we're all connected to everything.
• 26:12
  Speaker 7: It doesn't work.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: When I covered Robert Flood, I think he was like
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: eight or ten years old or something, when he was
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: already like I was talking about the school he was
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: going to and what he was studying, and I was like,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: this dude was like Doogie Hauser of today. But that
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: was normal back then, probably because they didn't have fucking iPhones.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: They didn't have the internet. You know, you actually like
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: just studied it is bored probably, but yeah, it just
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be the same anymore. So, Yeah, I
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: think that was a pretty good question by brain thing,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: because I would assume it's probably the same way with
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: the other stuff that you're even looking at.
• 26:48
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and I think, oh, this is one of the
• 26:49
  Speaker 7: reasons I quite like the word service magic more than
• 26:51
  Speaker 7: cunning person most of the time, because you know, you're right,
• 26:55
  Speaker 7: like a lot of these sort of ritual magicians, they
• 26:58
  Speaker 7: were doing some very very high level stuff and they
• 27:01
  Speaker 7: were kind of engaging with the sort of pseudo scientific
• 27:03
  Speaker 7: method and as you say, they were sketching like you know,
• 27:06
  Speaker 7: the human body, and they were really grappling with the
• 27:11
  Speaker 7: big questions of the universe. But they were also using
• 27:15
  Speaker 7: their magical knowledge to get random women to sleep with
• 27:20
  Speaker 7: them or to find buried treasure in you know, in
• 27:25
  Speaker 7: their backyard or whatever. So like it's some acute and
• 27:29
  Speaker 7: I really love that, you know, kind of it's a
• 27:31
  Speaker 7: big reminder that you know, all these people are human,
• 27:33
  Speaker 7: Like they've got this amazing sort of renaissance man sort
• 27:35
  Speaker 7: of persona, but they're Also they're just people just trying
• 27:40
  Speaker 7: to get by, and sometimes what they really need is
• 27:42
  Speaker 7: a big, big cash injection, so they go on someone
• 27:44
  Speaker 7: a demon and ask them where the very treasurer is,
• 27:46
  Speaker 7: you know, like just as you do.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Uh, I know. I think you might have mentioned something
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: before about like maybe like a Christian flair on stuff,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: and I mentioned it too. When you study, like study
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: this stuff, would you say that like, like cunning folk
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: could also be in different types of like I guess
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: belief systems, Like it could be Christian or maybe a Catholic,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: or it could be like even a Jewish person maybe
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: using cabalistic stuff. But you under say, why I'm getting out,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Like you could be into this stuff but kind of
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: be a mystic under a different belief system.
• 28:26
  Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, completely. I think that's so. I was mostly
• 28:31
  Speaker 7: looking at the Christian context and sort of Catholic into
• 28:33
  Speaker 7: Protestant because I'm mostly looking at England, and in the
• 28:38
  Speaker 7: fifteen thirties, England goes through the sort of the Protestant
• 28:42
  Speaker 7: Reformation and breaks with the Roman Catholic Church and it's
• 28:45
  Speaker 7: all very dramatic, and I kind of I was the
• 28:48
  Speaker 7: reason I look at the sort of you know, thirteen
• 28:51
  Speaker 7: hundred three to seventeen hundred is because I'm curious about
• 28:53
  Speaker 7: this kind of this movement from one type of Christianity
• 28:55
  Speaker 7: to another type and what that does to magical belief.
• 29:00
  Speaker 7: But I think it's it's like magic or magical practice
• 29:06
  Speaker 7: or cunning practice I think exists in most societies, regardless
• 29:10
  Speaker 7: of what religion you know, people practice or known religion. Right,
• 29:13
  Speaker 7: it's just it's just there, and it's sort of it's
• 29:16
  Speaker 7: it's theorized and understood according to the kind of the
• 29:18
  Speaker 7: religious lens that people are using. But yeah, I mean
• 29:23
  Speaker 7: I I was actually quite surprised when I started this research.
• 29:25
  Speaker 7: I was expecting to see a lot of pagan survivals,
• 29:28
  Speaker 7: especially in the kind of the early material, and that's
• 29:30
  Speaker 7: not what I see at all. It's a lot like
• 29:33
  Speaker 7: every everything, well nearly every spell I've come across, is
• 29:36
  Speaker 7: very much grounded in the kind of yeah, Abrahammick context. Yeah,
• 29:44
  Speaker 7: because again it's just you know, that is the the
• 29:47
  Speaker 7: most powerful spiritual force around. Why wouldn't you tap into that?
• 29:51
  Speaker 7: I think is the basic logic that underpins a lot
• 29:53
  Speaker 7: of it.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what's really interesting that you just, you know,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: abrahammic it's even myself, like studying older like occultists or
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: like looking in certain areas of like you know this
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: like the Islam that was huge with alchemy, you know
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying. But like if you do look at it,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: it's basically you got to Kabbala, then you got Islam stuff,
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: and then you got Catholicism or Christian mysticism where it's
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: like you do have the Abrahamic religions all really do
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: have their own huge flayer of occultism.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: Bro secretism, Martinism, the Abrahamic general. You know, theology has
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: had such an effect on the.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Globe exactly, Like it's such influence and occultism, those three. Yeah,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: the Abrahamic religion is a huge impact. What I like,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: what I think maybe what you're kind of you know
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: getting at too, like from stuff that I have looked
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: at in the past, even with certain grimoires, there was
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: a huge, huge Christian and Catholic influence, like and some
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: of the oldest stuff too. Oh yeah, yeah, experience with
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: the cunning folk type stuff.
• 31:05
  Speaker 7: Yeah, no, completely, And I think it is really interesting,
• 31:09
  Speaker 7: like especially after the Reformation, you get this almost a
• 31:15
  Speaker 7: distillation of Catholicism in magic because a lot of Catholic
• 31:20
  Speaker 7: practices which were previously just orthodox religion that everybody kind
• 31:23
  Speaker 7: of saw as normal. For example, like a priest blessing
• 31:26
  Speaker 7: a field. You know that that was just a standard
• 31:28
  Speaker 7: part of the kind of the the agricultural year in
• 31:33
  Speaker 7: Catholic England, and then after the Reformation and everything sort
• 31:38
  Speaker 7: of goes quite quite heavily Protestant, that you know, the
• 31:45
  Speaker 7: field blessings suddenly become seen as magic because they're a
• 31:49
  Speaker 7: Catholic practice and you've got the sort of papist influence apparently,
• 31:53
  Speaker 7: so it almost kind of throws into relief what is
• 31:56
  Speaker 7: supernatural or it's kind of like what is acceptable supernatural
• 31:59
  Speaker 7: and what's not, And that actually encourages more people to
• 32:02
  Speaker 7: research Catholicism as a form of magical practice, which I
• 32:05
  Speaker 7: think is really interesting. And actually, going back to what
• 32:09
  Speaker 7: you were saying about the Aprahamic religions, Islam had a
• 32:12
  Speaker 7: huge impact on Christian and Catholic magical practice as well,
• 32:19
  Speaker 7: because a lot of the sort of the the Arabic
• 32:24
  Speaker 7: world was where a lot of the I'm sure you
• 32:27
  Speaker 7: know this kind of was where a lot of the
• 32:29
  Speaker 7: astrological knowledge was kind of preserved and written down a
• 32:32
  Speaker 7: lot of the sort of the the Persian and the
• 32:34
  Speaker 7: Greek philosophers and sort of their knowledge was translated into
• 32:39
  Speaker 7: Arabic first and then sort of imported back into Western
• 32:42
  Speaker 7: Europe in the twelfth century, translated into Latin and then
• 32:46
  Speaker 7: starts being circulated and becomes Christianized, but still has this
• 32:50
  Speaker 7: kind of Arabic roots. So they all really meld together
• 32:53
  Speaker 7: and kind of support each other, and you get these
• 32:56
  Speaker 7: these magicians, especially the very well educated ones, just kind
• 32:58
  Speaker 7: of merging these different religion's knowledge and kind of pulling
• 33:01
  Speaker 7: them and sort of seeing what works. There's an amazing
• 33:06
  Speaker 7: scroll in the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford. Actually sorry, it's
• 33:11
  Speaker 7: the it's in the Western Library in Oxford, and it's
• 33:14
  Speaker 7: actually got Hebrew, Arabic and Latin characters on it, and
• 33:20
  Speaker 7: each sort of foot of it is a different spell
• 33:23
  Speaker 7: that combines all these different elements and then kind of
• 33:25
  Speaker 7: moves on to another spell from there. But it's it's
• 33:27
  Speaker 7: just an absolutely amazing melting pot of different religions all
• 33:30
  Speaker 7: in the sum I think it's a fifteenth century manuscript.
• 33:33
  Speaker 7: It's great. Sorry, I'll stop ranting now.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, that's great. Love it.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: You're here too, rand.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, I had something with the Oh, what I wanted
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: to ask because I'm from very interested in this because
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: I have a feeling it might have been a little
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: bit more accepted back then. But like this type of
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: like if you were, I guess it's like a Christian
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: or a Catholic and you're kind of doing these practices,
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: were they kind of accepted at the times?
• 34:08
  Speaker 7: Yes?
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: And no.
• 34:09
  Speaker 7: So technically no, because well there's there's two sort of
• 34:14
  Speaker 7: strands of no. One is going back to Saint augustin
• 34:20
  Speaker 7: fourth century and fifth century, arguing that if you are
• 34:25
  Speaker 7: using some kind of supernatural power and you can't prove
• 34:28
  Speaker 7: that it's from God, it's probably using demons. Demons are bad.
• 34:32
  Speaker 7: Don't use demons, could be pagan spirits, could be you know,
• 34:35
  Speaker 7: other things. Just don't touch it. So that kind of that,
• 34:40
  Speaker 7: that fear of heretical practices basically and idolatry is one
• 34:46
  Speaker 7: reason why the Church very much warned against using magic
• 34:49
  Speaker 7: in this period. The other problem is is blasphemy. Basically,
• 34:53
  Speaker 7: so even if you're definitely not using demons and you
• 34:55
  Speaker 7: are using the power of God, maybe God doesn't want
• 34:58
  Speaker 7: you to use his scripture in order to find your
• 35:03
  Speaker 7: stolen spoon, and so there's that kind of concern, just
• 35:06
  Speaker 7: sort of abuse of power. So for those two reasons, know,
• 35:11
  Speaker 7: these kinds of things aren't acceptable. However, the church was
• 35:14
  Speaker 7: incredibly pragmatic when it came to this kind of thing,
• 35:18
  Speaker 7: partly because any kind of belief is better than no belief,
• 35:21
  Speaker 7: and also because if you're using the powers for positive purposes,
• 35:27
  Speaker 7: then honestly the church has got more to worry about.
• 35:31
  Speaker 7: So if you look at the the church court records,
• 35:34
  Speaker 7: it's really funny, like every parish in England had a church,
• 35:39
  Speaker 7: and every church was meant to be checking up on
• 35:41
  Speaker 7: his parishian his activities, and that you have these kind
• 35:44
  Speaker 7: of church courts checking in on what people are doing.
• 35:46
  Speaker 7: And I've looked through some of their records and the
• 35:50
  Speaker 7: most of them are complaining about fornication and adultery, not
• 35:54
  Speaker 7: turning up to church at all, or keeping your pigs
• 35:57
  Speaker 7: in the church as the only stone build around. You know,
• 36:01
  Speaker 7: the storm comes in, you can drive your livestock into
• 36:03
  Speaker 7: the church. So that's the kinds of things that the
• 36:05
  Speaker 7: priests were getting really annoyed about. And then they'd be like,
• 36:07
  Speaker 7: oh yeah, and also somebody practice magic or somebody stole
• 36:10
  Speaker 7: communion water, sorry holy water from the font. Stop that
• 36:16
  Speaker 7: we should probably put a lock on the font. It's
• 36:18
  Speaker 7: the kind of way of dealing with that. So like,
• 36:21
  Speaker 7: that's that's the level of concern. Like, it's not high.
• 36:25
  Speaker 7: It's just one of the many annoyances of a priest's day.
• 36:30
  Speaker 7: So yeah, it's not it's not hardcore prosecuted most of
• 36:33
  Speaker 7: the time, unless you're doing harm with magic, at which
• 36:35
  Speaker 7: point it goes quite dark quite quickly.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Would it be like, this is a good way to
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: try to explain it for today's what's going on today
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: with that type of stuff at that time that you're
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: looking at it, was it causing some sort of type
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: of satanic panic?
• 36:50
  Speaker 7: Ooh you know, actually, I'm putting together a funding bid
• 36:54
  Speaker 7: at the moment to kind of compare early modern witch
• 36:57
  Speaker 7: trials with satanic panics. I think there is a really
• 36:59
  Speaker 7: interesting that needs exploring, I think so. I think that's
• 37:04
  Speaker 7: that's what some churchmen were very concerned about. Yes, they're like, oh, no,
• 37:09
  Speaker 7: you know, this person's healing with unknown words. They're probably
• 37:12
  Speaker 7: using satan. This is really bad. I think that was
• 37:16
  Speaker 7: more of an intellectual concern than it was in everyday concern. Yeah,
• 37:21
  Speaker 7: I mean unless unless you've got somebody in your village
• 37:23
  Speaker 7: who keeps muttering under their breath, then all of a
• 37:25
  Speaker 7: sudden your children start dying, or your crops fail, or
• 37:29
  Speaker 7: your cow gets sick. People don't really care about what's
• 37:33
  Speaker 7: going on sort of magic wise. As soon as that
• 37:36
  Speaker 7: sort of thing starts happening, then you've got issues and
• 37:39
  Speaker 7: people do like then the room of mill starts cranking
• 37:41
  Speaker 7: really really fast, and you do. You get quite a
• 37:43
  Speaker 7: lot of paranoia. But yeah, if it's positive, it's fine.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: That's funny.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: So I'm wondering now, when you're looking at this this history,
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: how much separation is there between the ideas of heavenly
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: magic and the ideas of working with earthly elements and
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: the separation between those.
• 38:08
  Speaker 7: That's a great question.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Would you say earthly? Would that consider natural magic as well?
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well kind of like you know, you hear about
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: find a hole in a tree, spin in it, fll
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: it with mud, go around the tree three times, these
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: things to take the sickness out of you, or spitting
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: in the room like kind of the things that are
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: associated with sympathetic magic per se versus this actual idea
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: of you know, hierarchies, mantras, and using vibrational form you know,
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: waveforms through speech to to you know, call down connect
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: with the heavenly energies to precipitate the end.
• 38:48
  Speaker 7: Mean mm hm. So I think that's there's a lot
• 38:55
  Speaker 7: of blending of these, and I think it's it's hard
• 38:58
  Speaker 7: to tell some of the time. I think it's easy
• 39:00
  Speaker 7: to tell what very well educated people thought of that
• 39:06
  Speaker 7: sort of thing, because you know, there was a sort
• 39:08
  Speaker 7: of a theory of this. I mean, the kind of
• 39:10
  Speaker 7: the theory of dowsing, for example, like that was quite
• 39:14
  Speaker 7: well formulated by the sixteenth century. And you've got sort
• 39:18
  Speaker 7: of some very well read people who are kind of,
• 39:19
  Speaker 7: you know, explaining that you are having sort of stellar
• 39:22
  Speaker 7: rays coming down from the sky and you also have
• 39:25
  Speaker 7: sort of vibrations coming up from the earth, and they're
• 39:27
  Speaker 7: communicating with each other and a human can or a
• 39:30
  Speaker 7: human with a stick connect as a channel. Yeah. So
• 39:33
  Speaker 7: in that sense, yes, and you know, again bearing your
• 39:36
  Speaker 7: mind that people are pretty committed to the idea that
• 39:41
  Speaker 7: they're living in a sort of universe that's been created
• 39:43
  Speaker 7: by God. Then you know, this is it's very connected
• 39:45
  Speaker 7: to divinity and theology. So in that sense. Yes, I
• 39:50
  Speaker 7: think there is a strong connection between these different elements
• 39:53
  Speaker 7: and they're all being mixed up together in the theory.
• 39:56
  Speaker 7: What I don't know, and what I think is really
• 39:58
  Speaker 7: hard to tell, is what people, like normal people thought,
• 40:02
  Speaker 7: you know, if they could potentially read but couldn't write,
• 40:05
  Speaker 7: or if they were completely illegitimate. Yeah, I love your
• 40:11
  Speaker 7: book and the spoons, thank you. I love the spoons too,
• 40:15
  Speaker 7: but yeah, if yeah, normal people on the ground who
• 40:20
  Speaker 7: are sort of practicing this everyday stuff, like you know,
• 40:22
  Speaker 7: sort of yeah, drilling a hole in a tree and
• 40:24
  Speaker 7: then putting a shrew in it and then locking the
• 40:26
  Speaker 7: shrew in there to die, which is absolutely grim. What
• 40:30
  Speaker 7: theory they were tapping into is very hard to tell,
• 40:35
  Speaker 7: but I think there is there's kind of a trickle
• 40:36
  Speaker 7: down from above, and there's also sort of a kind
• 40:38
  Speaker 7: of almost like an empirical kind of what works sort
• 40:41
  Speaker 7: of thing, and just yeah, and they're kind of that
• 40:44
  Speaker 7: that sort of oral knowledge being passed down, so that
• 40:47
  Speaker 7: I think there is a lot of a lot of
• 40:49
  Speaker 7: natural magic going on, but exactly how people thought it
• 40:53
  Speaker 7: worked is sometimes very hard to tell. Apart from the
• 40:54
  Speaker 7: sympathy magic, which, as you say, is just kind of
• 40:58
  Speaker 7: a very constant current that seems to run through a
• 40:59
  Speaker 7: lot of practice, right, right.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: So where then do you think like a lot of
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: the practices kind of came from, Like where did people
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: get these ideas?
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: Was it just kind of like they came up with them?
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Did they come from like the the you know, the
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: royalty or how how do you like.
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: Have you see anything how they've come up with these ideas?
• 41:19
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that's there's kind of a combination of
• 41:21
  Speaker 7: the two there. So partly it's yeah, just yes, sort
• 41:28
  Speaker 7: of coming up with them, seeing what works. I think
• 41:30
  Speaker 7: one of my favorite examples of this is a method
• 41:35
  Speaker 7: called turning the loaf, which it turns up in the
• 41:38
  Speaker 7: fourteenth cent fifteenth century, then it just dives out again,
• 41:42
  Speaker 7: and I think it's because it's deeply in practical and
• 41:43
  Speaker 7: doesn't work, but it's got some like it's got some
• 41:46
  Speaker 7: fun elements in it, which definitely kind of tap into
• 41:48
  Speaker 7: wider theory. So you basically you take a stay all
• 41:52
  Speaker 7: life for bread, You take four knives, and you put
• 41:55
  Speaker 7: the knives into the bread in a in a cross
• 41:58
  Speaker 7: shape essentially. Then you put a peg in the middle
• 42:01
  Speaker 7: of the bread and then you spin the loaf on
• 42:04
  Speaker 7: the peg and you ask questions, and according to how
• 42:08
  Speaker 7: the bread falls or which way the bread spins, that
• 42:10
  Speaker 7: will give you an answer to those questions. So the
• 42:13
  Speaker 7: cross aspect is very much sort of trying to tap
• 42:15
  Speaker 7: into the power of Christ. Right the bread, maybe that's
• 42:19
  Speaker 7: just what you have lying around that kind of works,
• 42:22
  Speaker 7: the spinning, that sort of that answer to a binary question.
• 42:27
  Speaker 7: Like a lot of divination relies on that sort of
• 42:30
  Speaker 7: kind of spinning or movement in order to sort of divine,
• 42:33
  Speaker 7: and that goes all the way back to sort of
• 42:34
  Speaker 7: ancient Greece. So you've got these fundamental elements of spells
• 42:39
  Speaker 7: that are then being adapted according to what materials people
• 42:43
  Speaker 7: have at hand, and then sometimes they'll sort of survive
• 42:47
  Speaker 7: and just continue for hundreds of years because they do
• 42:50
  Speaker 7: really work really well. And then sometimes you know how
• 42:53
  Speaker 7: many times you have a stab a piece of bread
• 42:54
  Speaker 7: before it starts falling apart, like it doesn't work really
• 42:56
  Speaker 7: well at all, So that dives out quite quickly. So
• 42:59
  Speaker 7: it's kind of trying error, but there is still theory,
• 43:02
  Speaker 7: and there's one of my other favorite sort of divination
• 43:05
  Speaker 7: techniques is called the sieven shears, which is where you
• 43:08
  Speaker 7: balance a sieve on a pair of shes and sort
• 43:11
  Speaker 7: of see which way the sieve wobbles when you ask
• 43:13
  Speaker 7: a question. And again that definitely has references. Well, there's
• 43:18
  Speaker 7: a reference to divining with a sieve in the Bible,
• 43:22
  Speaker 7: and there is also one in Herodotus.
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: I think.
• 43:27
  Speaker 7: And then it seems to die out for a couple
• 43:28
  Speaker 7: of hundred years and then it comes back again. So
• 43:30
  Speaker 7: presumably there is this kind of continuous oral tradition being
• 43:33
  Speaker 7: passed down of oh well, if you want to know
• 43:35
  Speaker 7: the future, use a sieve. But how exactly that's used
• 43:40
  Speaker 7: again changes according to sort of local knowledge and you know, yeah,
• 43:44
  Speaker 7: sort of rumor, I guess. So it's yeah, complicated, but
• 43:48
  Speaker 7: I think elements of two things going on there. So
• 43:52
  Speaker 7: run out of steam at the end.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: Now, when you go back into the foundations of Judaism,
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: they talk about peraffin, which is basically generally associated with
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: a piece of something natural, a rock or a piece
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: of wood, and then they would wrap metal around it
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: and it sort of, you know, represents some some sort
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: of advancing type of technology. How much did you see
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: this in later times where they were actually crafting devices
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: with different elements for purpose?
• 44:28
  Speaker 7: M sometimes. I mean, the examples that are coming into
• 44:35
  Speaker 7: my mind right now are ambulets and talismans, you know,
• 44:38
  Speaker 7: I mean so many of those are a combination of
• 44:41
  Speaker 7: pressure stones and metals. And obviously that pressure stones had
• 44:47
  Speaker 7: so many different qualities attached to them, and you know,
• 44:50
  Speaker 7: the idea that they for example, coral I think was
• 44:54
  Speaker 7: associated with being able to defend, especially children from fevers,
• 44:58
  Speaker 7: and that was partly because it was attached to Kaivu.
• 45:00
  Speaker 7: You might know the sort of uh, the particular properties
• 45:04
  Speaker 7: of a planet, which one Mars. Thank you, I wanted
• 45:09
  Speaker 7: to see Mars. I also do you want to get wrong?
• 45:11
  Speaker 7: So thank you. That's great, Yeah, and so kind of yeah,
• 45:16
  Speaker 7: we've got entire lapid areas or sort of books of
• 45:18
  Speaker 7: stones that explain the kind of the fundamental properties, and
• 45:21
  Speaker 7: then you could see some level of experimentation going on
• 45:24
  Speaker 7: with you know, if we combine that with gold, then
• 45:26
  Speaker 7: what happens does that actually sort of increase the power
• 45:29
  Speaker 7: of the coral. And then of course you've got alchemy,
• 45:32
  Speaker 7: which is obviously just advancing technology and incredible new tools
• 45:39
  Speaker 7: in order to sort of improve the distillation process and
• 45:42
  Speaker 7: that sort of thing. So yeah, there's always experimentation going on.
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Nice.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Uh you mentioned something before about something being pulled out
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: of the Bible whatever. Yes, is there others that you've noticed,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: uh where maybe like psalms or parts of the Bible
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: is like almost directly quoted or you know, used in
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: this type of magic.
• 46:11
  Speaker 7: Yeah, they are quite a few actually, So if you're
• 46:15
  Speaker 7: trying to identify a thief, then you would normally sumon
• 46:19
  Speaker 7: Saint Peter, Ince and Paul apparently because I think there's
• 46:23
  Speaker 7: an apocryphal story actually that Saint Peterns and Paul were
• 46:26
  Speaker 7: very good identifying thieves or kind of returning stock goods.
• 46:30
  Speaker 7: So it's not actually in the Bible, but it was
• 46:31
  Speaker 7: believed by medieval people to be a biblical story of
• 46:34
  Speaker 7: the kinds of things that apostles could do. There's a
• 46:40
  Speaker 7: cure for toothache, no sorry, a cure for staunching blood
• 46:44
  Speaker 7: and stopping hemorrhaging, which called on the River Jordan and
• 46:50
  Speaker 7: sort of quoted parts of the Bible, parts of the
• 46:54
  Speaker 7: Oldestman that sort of talked about the flow of the
• 46:56
  Speaker 7: river Jordan and kind of being able to sort of
• 46:58
  Speaker 7: stop the flow of the river Jordan. And with that,
• 47:01
  Speaker 7: you know, your hemorrhaging would stop as well. There's obviously
• 47:06
  Speaker 7: a lot of anti witchcraft propaganda that calls on the
• 47:12
  Speaker 7: witch of endor or the sorceress of end Or, and
• 47:15
  Speaker 7: that that lovely quote that out not sufferer which to live,
• 47:18
  Speaker 7: which wasn't actually which in the original versions. I think
• 47:22
  Speaker 7: it's only the King James Bible isn't the first version
• 47:26
  Speaker 7: to use the word which instead of sorcerer, but is
• 47:33
  Speaker 7: one of the first. And yeah, I think the oh,
• 47:39
  Speaker 7: in the beginning there was the word that's also used
• 47:41
  Speaker 7: a lot as a kind of almost like a sort
• 47:44
  Speaker 7: of universal opener for whatever spell you do. And again
• 47:48
  Speaker 7: it's I think it's just like kind of tapping into
• 47:50
  Speaker 7: that very very very powerful creative force and then sort
• 47:55
  Speaker 7: of carrying on your spell from there. So yeah, lots
• 47:57
  Speaker 7: lots of Bible and lots of arms.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: That's interesting is that a lot of Old Testaments stuff.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: So I would wonder if that was maybe not not
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: necessarily but maybe like cabalistically influenced, right.
• 48:11
  Speaker 6: Potentially, Yeah, definitely, I mean bears sheath, right, is you know,
• 48:16
  Speaker 6: is the beginning of the Old Testament stating that you know,
• 48:19
  Speaker 6: in the beginning is the word.
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: Or bearis sheath?
• 48:21
  Speaker 6: Meaning, from the divine mind of Noos comes the logos,
• 48:25
  Speaker 6: and the logos is the word coming forth to spread.
• 48:28
  Speaker 6: And as we see in obviously our storytelling chronicles of Narnia,
• 48:33
  Speaker 6: how did Aslan create the entire world? But through his
• 48:37
  Speaker 6: great music of his roar of the sound that then
• 48:41
  Speaker 6: brought the world up around him.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: So I like that, Yes, same with the Sulmarinian in
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: regard to the initial ring that was the lord of
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: the rings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, nice.
• 48:56
  Speaker 7: Gorgeous.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: So so was there some sort of like astrologic influence,
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Like I know, horror Areya is probably maybe considered a
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: cunning because that is the one where you look for things,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: figure out why people have certain relationships and that kind
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: of stuff. But is there any other astrological influence in
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: the research that you've done or anything, Yeah, with like
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: growing herbs or anything like that, like timing wise, Yes.
• 49:19
  Speaker 7: Yeah there is. So there's a lot of advice. Actually,
• 49:22
  Speaker 7: well again it's a kind of a question what is
• 49:24
  Speaker 7: this magic or not, because a lot of healing manuals
• 49:30
  Speaker 7: from the sort of fifteenth century backwards just incorporate what
• 49:35
  Speaker 7: we probably now define as magical practices. But for example,
• 49:38
  Speaker 7: if you know, if you are trying to staunch blood flow,
• 49:41
  Speaker 7: then you will pick yarrow very very good actually it's
• 49:44
  Speaker 7: so very effective but stopping wounds from bleeding. But it
• 49:50
  Speaker 7: would advise that you pick it at certain times when
• 49:51
  Speaker 7: you according to the phase of the moon or where
• 49:54
  Speaker 7: I think again, Mars is in the sky. So yeah,
• 49:58
  Speaker 7: that kind of that incorporation and of what the planets
• 50:01
  Speaker 7: are doing in order to sort of kind of make
• 50:04
  Speaker 7: your your cures or your plants more effective. It is
• 50:09
  Speaker 7: definitely potent. Yeah, thank you as Yeah, and there's also,
• 50:16
  Speaker 7: as you say, lots of horrories for all sorts of things. Yeah,
• 50:19
  Speaker 7: partly just sort of diagnostic for illness, but also predicting
• 50:22
  Speaker 7: the outcome of battles. Elizabeth first famously had a horoscope
• 50:28
  Speaker 7: cast for the day of her coronation to sort of
• 50:31
  Speaker 7: see how how successful her reign would be. Yeah, I'm
• 50:36
  Speaker 7: trying to think of any others.
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: By doctor John d himself, which we talk about all
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: the time, right indeed.
• 50:44
  Speaker 7: Yeah, And also Elizabeth then banned using horoscopes or any
• 50:52
  Speaker 7: kind of other prognostication tools to predict how long her
• 50:56
  Speaker 7: reign would be after that because it was just too
• 50:58
  Speaker 7: much of a threat to Yeah, her rule. So yeah,
• 51:05
  Speaker 7: it's yeah, astrology sort of crops up all over the place.
• 51:09
  Speaker 5: Oh.
• 51:09
  Speaker 7: It was also used as an explanation for the plague
• 51:13
  Speaker 7: that struck in the fifteen eighties and again in the
• 51:17
  Speaker 7: sixteen sixties. Actually, and of course sort of blaming comets
• 51:21
  Speaker 7: for a lot of academics very common as well. So yeah,
• 51:25
  Speaker 7: I mean yeah, it really it really sort of leaks
• 51:27
  Speaker 7: into everything. I would say, so leaks for isn't the
• 51:29
  Speaker 7: right word, but beams into everything.
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: That's so nice. So what was the what so of
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: this new book of yours? What was the reason?
• 51:37
  Speaker 6: Like why unless you already told us, but like what
• 51:40
  Speaker 6: like in your research?
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: Obviously, I like why this book? And why this now?
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 51:48
  Speaker 7: Okay, So I have spent the last three years doing
• 51:51
  Speaker 7: a postdoc looking at the sixteen forties which hunts that
• 51:55
  Speaker 7: happened in the east of England. So have you ever
• 51:58
  Speaker 7: heard of Matthew Hopkins? Yes, yes, excellent, okay, so very
• 52:04
  Speaker 7: grumpy guy I called himself, for which finder General had
• 52:05
  Speaker 7: a very big hat. And he also happened to drive
• 52:10
  Speaker 7: the largest witch hunt in English history. About three hundred
• 52:13
  Speaker 7: people were accused, between a third and two thirds of
• 52:16
  Speaker 7: those were executed. It happened in the middle of the
• 52:19
  Speaker 7: English Civil War or the British Civil War, and I
• 52:24
  Speaker 7: mean it's kind of it's very much a sort of
• 52:26
  Speaker 7: it's a it's an incredibly intense period of religious and
• 52:29
  Speaker 7: social polarization, a breakdown of law and order that allows
• 52:33
  Speaker 7: this huge witch hunt, which I think is ten times
• 52:36
  Speaker 7: larger than any other witch hunting when never saw to happen.
• 52:41
  Speaker 7: So myself and Professor Marie and Gibson were looking into
• 52:44
  Speaker 7: the people who were caught up in this witch hunt.
• 52:46
  Speaker 7: Basically because we know lots about Matthew Hopkins, we know
• 52:48
  Speaker 7: what he was up to in his motivations, we don't
• 52:51
  Speaker 7: know very much about the actual three hundred people who
• 52:53
  Speaker 7: were accused. So the witch hunt spread over seven counties,
• 52:59
  Speaker 7: and I got to be obsessed with Cambridgeshire, which was
• 53:03
  Speaker 7: not the epicenter of the hunt by a long way,
• 53:06
  Speaker 7: like Suffolk was the epicenter. Cambridgeshire was kind of one
• 53:09
  Speaker 7: of the backup waters that kind of had the last
• 53:12
  Speaker 7: vestiges of this big witch hunt, but it was also
• 53:16
  Speaker 7: going through huge changes and huge traumatic changes at the
• 53:21
  Speaker 7: same time as this hunt. It happens to sort of
• 53:23
  Speaker 7: arrive on their doorstep, because not only were these people
• 53:27
  Speaker 7: living through the Civil War, they had also been living
• 53:31
  Speaker 7: in this amazing wetland landscape for the last many thousand
• 53:34
  Speaker 7: years and in the sixteen thirties, so ten years before
• 53:38
  Speaker 7: this witch hunt starts, the fens and this this huge
• 53:42
  Speaker 7: wetland is drained and it decimates the local ecology. It
• 53:47
  Speaker 7: completely changes the local economy, and it it makes everybody's
• 53:54
  Speaker 7: life so much harder, basically, and I really want to
• 53:59
  Speaker 7: tell the stories of these people and how they managed
• 54:03
  Speaker 7: to navigate, you know, not only the witch hunt, not
• 54:06
  Speaker 7: just the civil war, but also this kind of solistalgia
• 54:08
  Speaker 7: that they were dealing with and the like I mean,
• 54:11
  Speaker 7: I don't know about you. I have extreme climate grief
• 54:14
  Speaker 7: and I'm very concerned about the snake of the world.
• 54:17
  Speaker 7: And I can imagine that they were also going through
• 54:19
  Speaker 7: a similar sort of period of kind of just wondering
• 54:21
  Speaker 7: what on earth was going to happen next when the
• 54:23
  Speaker 7: world around them was changing so rapidly. So this book
• 54:27
  Speaker 7: is about that.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: Really.
• 54:28
  Speaker 7: It sort of starts with the accused witches sort of
• 54:33
  Speaker 7: before they were witches, so it starts when they were
• 54:35
  Speaker 7: when they're children. Basically, it kind of follows their whole
• 54:38
  Speaker 7: life through up until the witch hunts, where some of
• 54:42
  Speaker 7: them are executed, some of them also survive, and I
• 54:44
  Speaker 7: sort of then kind of follow their stories all the
• 54:47
  Speaker 7: way through, kind of like how do they adapt to
• 54:49
  Speaker 7: the world after all these huge changes have happened, and
• 54:53
  Speaker 7: how do they cope with that trauma and try to
• 54:55
  Speaker 7: make a new world as a result of that? And
• 54:57
  Speaker 7: also what do you do when you've been labeled a witch?
• 54:59
  Speaker 7: You know, how do you survive that? So, yeah, I'm
• 55:04
  Speaker 7: it's a complicated story. It's yeah, there's a little research
• 55:08
  Speaker 7: going into it. I think it's going to come together well,
• 55:10
  Speaker 7: but it's going to.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Be sounds great, thank you.
• 55:13
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it does sound great. I mean, obviously haven't you've
• 55:15
  Speaker 6: been shown on the BBC? Is it on your website?
• 55:18
  Speaker 6: I saw that you've had some pretty high accolades by
• 55:22
  Speaker 6: New York Times and different.
• 55:22
  Speaker 7: Things like that, right, Yeah, yeah, that was a surprise.
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, good for you. Yeah, it's fascinating.
• 55:30
  Speaker 6: It's interesting to see how personally, on my own end,
• 55:34
  Speaker 6: the way I see the world as it comes and
• 55:36
  Speaker 6: goes in these cyclical cycles, and so this thing that
• 55:39
  Speaker 6: you're talking about can be seen in our today's day
• 55:42
  Speaker 6: and age. And the one thing that stays the same
• 55:44
  Speaker 6: I've come to find out is the planet will just
• 55:48
  Speaker 6: shiver us off if it doesn't like it. And so
• 55:51
  Speaker 6: what what truly is going on is that like humans
• 55:54
  Speaker 6: are trying to find their place as we go through
• 55:57
  Speaker 6: certain cycles of our interaction and with nature, because if
• 56:01
  Speaker 6: we think about it, we are nature itself embodied as
• 56:04
  Speaker 6: we are trying to move through this world. And so
• 56:07
  Speaker 6: it's interesting to see how even though how much the
• 56:10
  Speaker 6: occult in the esoteric world is integrated into now the
• 56:13
  Speaker 6: mainstream with again my audience and the rejects audience are
• 56:17
  Speaker 6: going to be like, why are you always talking about
• 56:20
  Speaker 6: aliens and.
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: You know Ai and Epstein.
• 56:24
  Speaker 6: But the idea is that like these like we are
• 56:27
  Speaker 6: in like the occult actually maybe isn't even a thing
• 56:31
  Speaker 6: anymore because all that which is hidden is now out.
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: In the open.
• 56:36
  Speaker 6: And so it's fascinating to see how when we go
• 56:38
  Speaker 6: through these things, these things they're like like we're talking
• 56:41
  Speaker 6: about with witches back in the day, it's the same
• 56:45
  Speaker 6: thing that happened in Hypatia's time.
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: And so Hypatia, the great.
• 56:49
  Speaker 6: Philosopher Platonist, one of the most brilliant minds of that
• 56:53
  Speaker 6: time frame was ripped apart because she was pagan and
• 56:57
  Speaker 6: because she didn't succumb to the Christian doctrine of I
• 57:01
  Speaker 6: can't remember his name, but the the pope at that
• 57:04
  Speaker 6: time frame, Peter or whatever his name was. And so
• 57:07
  Speaker 6: it's interesting how that was in what one hundred a D,
• 57:11
  Speaker 6: right or three hundred a D excuse me my at time,
• 57:14
  Speaker 6: my recollection of these dates and times is bad, but
• 57:17
  Speaker 6: it's like this just continues to rise and fall, and
• 57:21
  Speaker 6: it's just fascinating that, you know, and it's really nice
• 57:24
  Speaker 6: to see that these things are becoming documented because the
• 57:28
  Speaker 6: term which in that timeframe is meaning is different than
• 57:31
  Speaker 6: how we mean it today. It's kind of what I'm
• 57:34
  Speaker 6: getting at is that is that that those people had
• 57:38
  Speaker 6: And why I asked the question I had earlier, it
• 57:40
  Speaker 6: was because of it's a worldview. It's it's not just
• 57:44
  Speaker 6: a mental state that you're trying to project upon the world,
• 57:48
  Speaker 6: it's actually.
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: How you think the world exists.
• 57:52
  Speaker 6: And so that's a really fascinating thing that then we
• 57:55
  Speaker 6: are continually battling ideologies, and so the more we understand
• 58:00
  Speaker 6: our history and the different you know, and I despise
• 58:04
  Speaker 6: moral relativism and relativism almost of all kinds. But this
• 58:08
  Speaker 6: idea of like, if we could try to fit in
• 58:10
  Speaker 6: the shoes of these people, we'll understand that maybe we're
• 58:12
  Speaker 6: reliving these same things because of our karma is deeming.
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: It that we have to.
• 58:20
  Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, that is what I'm interested. I'm interested in
• 58:23
  Speaker 7: the kind of, Yeah, how do people cope with forces
• 58:27
  Speaker 7: that are so much bigger than themselves?
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 58:29
  Speaker 7: I think there are different ways of dealing with it,
• 58:31
  Speaker 7: and I the message I try to sort of instill
• 58:34
  Speaker 7: into most of what I do is just like, whatever's
• 58:36
  Speaker 7: going on, try to be kind because it's you know,
• 58:42
  Speaker 7: we've always been little monkeys who don't really understand what's
• 58:45
  Speaker 7: going on, and no matter what's you know, whatever being
• 58:48
  Speaker 7: thrown at us, we just yeah, like we can either
• 58:51
  Speaker 7: sort of deal with it with grace or we can
• 58:53
  Speaker 7: deal with it with violence. And I would really rather
• 58:55
  Speaker 7: we did the first one.
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: I agree, Yeah, no, I agree.
• 58:59
  Speaker 6: And there's two statements, and this is something that so
• 59:01
  Speaker 6: Robbie's coming on coming on the Beautiful Magas in the
• 59:05
  Speaker 6: media channel tomorrow and him and I are going to
• 59:07
  Speaker 6: talk about this. But it's two things that I continually
• 59:09
  Speaker 6: come up in my mind is that one we are
• 59:12
  Speaker 6: continually running off of primate psychology, and two, the Empire
• 59:18
  Speaker 6: never ended and the Inquisition will forever reigns. It just
• 59:22
  Speaker 6: comes and goes in different ways. Yes, and we have
• 59:26
  Speaker 6: to be careful that when we're rising up against the
• 59:29
  Speaker 6: Empire that we don't become it. And it's the same
• 59:31
  Speaker 6: way as with the Inquisition, that we shouldn't fall too
• 59:34
  Speaker 6: far into any ideology or way of thinking, because we
• 59:38
  Speaker 6: will become the Inquisition that we despise calcification, and I
• 59:42
  Speaker 6: think those are really important.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: So you know one thing about that too, that what
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: you're saying, Brandon is something that you know, Tabitha, you
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: had mentioned that you're looking at and I wanted to
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: ask you a question. You know, I think you can
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: see it in today's day and age. I even do think,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: and I think it's even been done in the past.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: And I'll get to why I'm gonna say that that
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: sometimes the people who may not be living quite like
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: the person that they're showing the public might have the
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: biggest mouths as well, trying to you know, discredit others.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: But like this isn't I'm going totally by the word
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: of a man that I do think has told me
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: the truth. He's been on the show multiple times. Ron
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: from Wicked Planet. He is in the family lineage of
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: people that were involved in the Salem witch trials, and
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: he says, if you go back and look at records,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: he says, first off, he says, there was families that
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: like people who were involved with the families, you know,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: putting them into court, and then the families that were
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: getting dragged, you will actually see they're connecting and having families,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: he says. And then if you saw looking at the
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: property that was taken from the people that were accused
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: of witches, it was a strategic jick land grab and
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: actually taking out competitors in certain business aspects, and it
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: was for.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: Ivy League Systems.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was wondering, I don't know,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: did you come across anything that looked fishy, like when
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: they persecuted these people over in Europe where they're like, oh,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: we've got to take your property too. Was it like
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: that over there or.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 7: Really no, That's actually something that I've been trying to
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 7: figure out because that's exactly what I expected to find
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 7: when I was looking at the fens. You know, you
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 7: do have land grabs going on at this time. You
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 7: know that not only are the fens being drained of
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 7: their literally drained of water, but also drained of their resources,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 7: but you also have the common land being enclosed, so
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 7: that lots of people who previously had access suddenly stop.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 7: And so I was like, well, obviously there must be
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 7: a connection between that and the witch trials that happened
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 7: immediately afterwards, and there isn't. It's really strange, like the
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 7: people who are prosecuting the witches are also often against
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 7: the drainage movement and against enclosure, and a lot of
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 7: people who were accused of witchcraft, a lot of them
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 7: were also protesting the enclosure, but a lot of them
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 7: also supported it and were working to help it happen.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 7: So it's a really it's a lot more complicated than
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 7: this sort of us and them. And I think I
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 7: think that what actually is happening is that you just
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 7: have incredibly increased pressure, and when you have social pressure,
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 7: it finds an outlet, and you know, often I say
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 7: that is an explosion of violence. So it's not it's
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 7: not as simple as like the haves and have nots,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 7: but it is as simple as when that kind of
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 7: situation arises, people get nasty.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: That seems like magic to me.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 6: It's like natural forces or these long time energies of fear, hate,
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 6: whatever these things are, these eternal cathonic forces are moving
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 6: through people. It's like they're possessed on either side. So
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 6: it's like that goes back to the magical worldview. It's
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 6: like if we can understand that, then we can have
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 6: grace towards those who are the ones crucifying us.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was even Like I guess kind of what
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: I'm getting at even now, is that like a lot
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: of the people that well, for one, I'm just gonna
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: keep it real. In podcasting, if you're in the conspiracy
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: angle and you throw a Christian in there, you're automatically
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: just gonna grab a certain amount of followers because they
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: all watch the same shit, you know what I'm saying,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: So you're already going to be like, you know, in
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: with the fucking click. But like a lot of them,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: it's interesting what you were just saying. How it's like
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: it's almost as if you don't, well, first off, that
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: the biggest FAKEUS Christians regardless, but if you look at
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: what they start deeming satanic. It's almost as if as
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: if it has to do with ideologies on something besides
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: the religion in your own life, you know what I'm saying,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: like kind of like with you, like, well, maybe their
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: opinion on something specific, like even put it this way.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to get political, but if you
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: want to look at like the not the far right,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: but pushing far enough right with Christians, oh my god,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: you druss a certain way, you must be satanic. You
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: know what I'm saying. It's just like, you know, the
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: smallest things, all of a sudden, just just you know,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: you get labeled as that. And I feel like that's
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: like it's still going on now, hear the other Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: I mean again, I just hate to say it's always
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: by like going to keep it real some of the
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: most corrupt people actually out there.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, was there an event that triggered the witch hunt? Like,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: was there like a specific event that all of a
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: sudden was like the Pope said, or you know the
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: Protestant religion the queen said, or was there an event
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: that caused this chaos or this scared Yes, I.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 7: Think it is. It's partly it's just a civil war.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 7: So the the King of Parliaments, Chance the First and
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 7: the British Parliament have a massive falling out, to put
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 7: it mildly, in sixteen forty two, and at that point
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 7: sort of the whole country sort of ERPs into the
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 7: civil war and most people, most counties sort of take
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 7: sides essentially the and then you say, you get this
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 7: kind of breakdown of law and order, and then three
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 7: years afterwards the civil war lasts about ten years, and
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 7: three years into the civil War, that's where you start
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 7: having this witch hunt. And I think so there had
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 7: already been witchcraft prosecutions for a long time before that.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 7: I mean we're talking sort of, Yeah, the first witch
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 7: anti witchcraft law came in in the fifteen forties, and
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 7: this happened in the sixteen forties, so it's sort of
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 7: one hundred years later. So there's always been according to
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 7: these people, there's always been, you know, a fear of witchcraft.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 7: But what is different about this is that you do
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 7: have a bit of a satanic panic going on, I
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 7: guess because both the King and Parliament both believe that
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 7: the other side is working with the devil. There's a
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 7: concern that the King is basically a Cryptocatholic and Parliament
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 7: is very sort of on kind of puritanical sort of
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 7: side of Protestantism. And this is overs implying massively, but
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 7: it is broadly true. And so the Puritans think that
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 7: the king is working with the devil and trying to
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 7: bring Catholicism back into the country. The king thinks that
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 7: anybody who's trying to fight against him must be working
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 7: with the devil, because how could you possibly want to
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 7: overthrow your divinely appointed monarch, And so on either side.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 7: Across the country, people are seeing the devil appear everywhere,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 7: and literally they're seeing him appear on the road and
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 7: sort of, you know, seducing people. The devil is appearing
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 7: on battlefields and sort of helping you know, one side
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 7: more than the other. And also angels are appearing on
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 7: the battlefield as well to help you know one side.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 7: And so there's this belief that, you know, witches are,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 7: according to basically everybody in the early modern period, witches
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 7: are people who have sold their souls to the devil
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 7: and are working with the devil. And so there's almost
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 7: a kind of war effort going on here in the
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 7: idea that if you kind of stamp out witches, you
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 7: are going to be supporting your side. And where the
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 7: witch hunts happen in East Anglia, in the east and
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 7: sort of south east of England is very very parliamentarian
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 7: and therefore very Puritan, and therefore it's kind of it's
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 7: partly still of trying to defeat the king by defeating witches,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 7: almost And I think that a lot of witchcraft trials
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 7: before that were not particularly ideologically driven. They were mostly
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 7: concerned about damage of property a lot of the time,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 7: like damage of property by magical means, but still damage
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 7: of property. Whereas with this one, you really do have
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 7: the idea that Satan is walking in amidst and he
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 7: needs to be identified. And you also have these two
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 7: very charismatic witch finders. You've got Matthew Hopkins and John Stern.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 7: They're both quite young. John Stearns in his mid thirties,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 7: Matthewkins is in the mid twenties. Nie doesn't particularly want
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 7: to go off and fight, so they go and have
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 7: a jolly finding as many witch as they can instead.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 7: And that wouldn't have been allowed to happen if it
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 7: weren't for the Civil War. So it's it really is
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 7: a breakdown of law in order that lets this kind
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 7: of thing come through, which again lesson to be taken
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 7: away for now.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely, thank you very much.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: I appreciate going off tangents about the witch trials and stuff.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's great.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 6: How what is the spoon thing that people keep talking about?
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 7: Tell us it's basically that cunning folk. The book opens
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 7: with a story about Mabel Gray, who lost some spoons
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 7: in the I think it's someone, don't need to remind me.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 7: I think it's the sixteen thirties, and she basically she
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 7: was a Londoner. Her favorite silver spones had gone missing.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 7: She didn't know where they had gone. She asked her neighbors,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 7: and the neighbors, we haven't seen them. Have you considered
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 7: asking a local cunning man? And she kind of does
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 7: this amazing trip across London kind of to to sort
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 7: of visit I think three or four magicians and consult
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 7: every single one of them. And like the first magician says, no,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 7: I don't I don't find lost and stolen goods, but
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 7: I can take you to another one, And the next
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 7: one says, spoons aren't really my thing, but I could
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 7: take you to another one and sort of. So she
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 7: goes and finds all these magicians just living in London,
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 7: and eventually the last one she meets says, the spoons
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 7: will be in the place where you expect them, and
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 7: that's all we know.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 4: That's great, that's a great story.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I think. Well, I mean, the reason we know
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 7: about this is because she sued the first two for
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 7: because she paid them for their help, as she didn't
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 7: get any help from them, so the action sues them
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 7: for to get her money back.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 6: Essentially, I didn't know you could. I didn't know you
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 6: could assume people back then.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's actually one of the reasons
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 7: we know so much about cunning folk is because a
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 7: lot of the time they weren't being prosecuted for the
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 7: magic they were doing. They were being prosecuted for the
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 7: failure of the magic they were doing.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 6: Kind of snake oil type of yeah exactly.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 7: And then sometimes the cunning folk are like, no, actually,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 7: I think you'll find it may not have worked this time,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 7: but I definitely can do magic. Because then they start
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 7: presenting witnesses who say that yes, I definitely, you know,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 7: I employed this person before, and they did find my
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 7: stolen horse or spoons whatever. So, yeah, it's in flodcases.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 4: That's about interesting that, Nick, I have another question, Yeah,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 4: go for it.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 6: So my next question is, so Shakespeare, Now, tell me
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 6: what is Shakespeare in this timeframe is huge with magic
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 6: and everything that's going on, and so can you tell
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 6: me You're like just something off the top of your head.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 6: That's like one of your favorite things to think about
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 6: Shakespeare in this timeframe and practical magic.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 7: Oh okay, I've got two things. The first one is
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 7: that originally in Macbeth, the witches were not described as witches.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 7: They were described as weird sisters, and they were also
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 7: described as hags, but the word witch doesn't actually feature. Yeah,
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 7: and what's also really fun is that I think it
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 7: was Richard Napier went to see one of the first
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 7: ever stagings of Macbeth, and he wrote in his diary
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 7: that Macbeth was visited by spirits or fairies. So apparently,
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 7: however it was staged, originally was not witchy enough for
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 7: the audience to recognize them as witches, which I think
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 7: is absolutely fascinating. My other favorite thing is that in
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 7: The Merry Wives of Windsor which is one of Shakespeare's comedies,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 7: was written during Elizabeth's reign. You've got those sort of
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 7: comedic figure full Staff who's wandering around the town of
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 7: Windsor trying to seduce the married ladies there, and the
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 7: married ladies, you know, continuously trick him in various different ways,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 7: and he ends up in all sorts of silly positions,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 7: in situations not positions, but one of the final ones
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 7: he ends up being sort of forced into is to
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 7: dress up as one of the women's aunts, who is
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 7: the wise Woman of Brentford, and basically he is forced
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 7: to dress up as a cunning woman. He then gets
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 7: beaten up by this woman's husband because apparently this wise
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 7: woman has been banned from the house several times, and
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 7: so full Staff sort of wanders back down the street.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 7: He's very upset with everything that's been going on. But
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 7: people start recognizing full Staff as the Wise Woman of
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 7: Brentford and starts following him home and asking him for
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 7: all sorts of different magical services and sort of saying, oh,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 7: my master's watch chain has been stolen, can you do
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 7: a spell for me? And I just love that sort
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 7: of image of cunning folk being chased down the street
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 7: for their services, and that's sort of being immortalized in Shakespeare.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 7: And you wouldn't necessarily notice that it's there, but if
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 7: you know where to look, all of a sudden, you
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 7: just see cunning folk everywhere in Shakespeare's works.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 6: That's brilliant because it shows that Shakespeare, whoever he was,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 6: was also a magician or you know, an i'll cull
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 6: the esotericist who was writing cryptically and showing what was
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 6: going on in that timeframe and the magic through an
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 6: embodied way through his writing through storytelling.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 4: That's fascinating.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: So how did it become so mainstream? Like was there
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: like a progress for half a sudden, like everybody was
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: a cunning person or was that just kind of like yeah,
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: how did that become some mainstream?
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 7: I think I think it's just always been there. I mean,
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 7: so yeah, if we accept that everybody's been living in
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 7: a pretty magical, sort of animous universe for most of
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 7: our history, magic practice, magic spells has kind of idiots
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 7: just written into most societies, I think it starts getting
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 7: more attention in the Elizabethan period and into the sort
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 7: of you know Stuart period with James the First and
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 7: Charles the first because of the increased fear of witchcraft
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 7: and the idea that people are doing a lot of
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 7: harm through magic and there is potentially a kind of
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 7: diabolical conspiracy, which means that you end up getting more
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 7: plays written and stories written about cunning folk to kind
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 7: of try to work out where the difference is between
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 7: practicing witches and practicing cunning folk, because, as I think
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 7: I said at the beginning, there was a distinction in
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 7: most people's minds between people who would practice good magic
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 7: people who practice bad magic. And then all of a
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 7: sudden you have legislation coming in and sort of strong
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 7: church doctrine saying they're the same. You know, somebody who
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 7: can do one can do the other, and that I
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 7: think kind of blew people's minds and they weren't really
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 7: sure what to do with that, and so you get
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 7: a lot of kind of popular culture just sort of
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 7: debating this basically. And what's really interesting is a lot
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 7: of the place from Shakespeare's time do bring in cunning
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 7: folks and they have this kind of debate on the stage,
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 7: and then they normally conclude, no, actually, this cunning woman's okay,
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 7: like a bit weird, maybe strange habits doesn't look great,
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 7: but actually she's got some really good sort of services
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 7: that she does, and she's only intending to do good.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 7: So yeah, which I think, I think tells you something
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 7: about the culture that I don't think we necessarily see
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 7: because we tend to focus on the witch trials and
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 7: the kind of the persecution. But yeah, most people were
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 7: still kind of just using magic and it didn't really
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 7: change all that much, despite the assumption that probably yeah,
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 7: despite the assumption that it was probably evil according to
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 7: the church.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So that time period that you chose to research,
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: is there in the time period in particular.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 7: Well, my Latin is terrible, so I couldn't go any
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 7: further back in time, but yeah, I think I couldn't
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 7: really decide, so I kind of, yeah, I wanted to
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 7: go sort of thirteen hundred, sixteen hundred or sixteen fifty,
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 7: partly because we have this Reformation in the middle and
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 7: sort of seeing how how perspectives change I thought would
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 7: be really interesting to find out. I also just really
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 7: love the medieval period and also you know, the early
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 7: modern sort of Renaissance kind of period, and and I
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 7: mean people don't live in periods, right, like they like
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 7: sort of lives continue across across periodizations. So I kind
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 7: of wanted to see how magic played out across different lifetimes.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 7: And honestly, my knowledge kind of stops at seventeen hundred.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 7: I have no idea what happens after seventeen hundred. Russia
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 7: still probably has bizarre you know, I don't know what's
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 7: going on. So yeah, everything free seventeen hundred I have,
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 7: so you love and that's my best reason. I have
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 7: to be honest. I just like it age.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 5: So I just have a question.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: So before the thirteen hundreds, was it's still under Roman rule?
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know with the Viking Age, I don't
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: know history about that.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 5: Time period that much. Is that Where was everything in Latin?
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 7: I guess, but basically because that was the administrative language.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 7: So Britain stops being under Roman rule in four ten.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 7: It's kind of like an official withdrawal of Roman troops
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 7: from Britain in four ten AD. We then have what
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 7: we call we don't call, but it's sometimes called the
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 7: Dark Ages, and that's just basically because we don't have
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 7: many written records from that time period, but you get
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 7: a sort of invasion from lots of different tribes coming
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 7: in from Scandinavia, which then sort of becomes the Viking Age,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 7: and then you sort of get a sort of period
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 7: of stabilization and the kind of the formation of England
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 7: as are or as a sort of kingdom in about
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 7: the ninth century, and you also then have a kind
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 7: of the stabilization of the Roman Catholic Church is also
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 7: happening around that time. It's kind of it's spreading its
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 7: its influence a lot more consistently. And because you do
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 7: actually have a lot of movement, of lots of people's
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 7: and a lot of languages, like an unfathomable number of languages,
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 7: Latin kind of becomes the lingual franca that everybody can
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 7: kind of communicate in, at least if there's sort of
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 7: at a certain educational level. So because the Church was
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 7: also very responsible for a lot of kind of formalized
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 7: education in this period, if you did have an education,
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 7: you probably learned Latin. And that was just sort of yeah,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 7: the language I really spoke, at least in an administrative context,
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 7: along with French. French was also very common as well.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: I didn't notice with certain Renaissance people that I covered
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: a lot of times they would learn Latin almost as
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: like not to brag, but it was kind of like
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: if you're in an intellect, it's like you learned that,
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: and then sometimes you would even write something in that,
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: you know, like I think tygo'brahe wrote learned Latin and
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: wrote something about like his his unborn brother because like
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: him and his brother, I think, like we're separated as
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: twins and the other one didn't live, and he wrote
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: like a thing about that in Latin. I think I
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: was like as a flex as his first writing skill. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: he wrote poetry and in a lother language.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 7: Yeah, there is a lot of that, Like the Commune
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 7: of your Honor, like they're just having songs, but they're
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 7: having songs that were written and sort of sung by
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 7: scholars and university students basically, and there's just yeah, they're
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 7: all just really stupid songs, but they're all in Latin.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 7: So you could have a load of scholars turning up
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 7: at the pub and sort of bellowing that in at
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 7: the top of their lungs, and everybody else in the
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 7: pub like, oh, you don't know what you're saying, and
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 7: then if you read the translations, it's literally I come
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 7: there's one called when We're in the Tavern, and it's
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 7: it's kind of like chumber wombas tub thumping. It's kind
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 7: of a drink some whiskey drink, a drink, some bulka drink,
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 7: that kind of thing, but in Latin. And then he
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 7: was like, all, this sounds very smart, Like, no, it's not,
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 7: it's really not, but it's yeah, very much that kind
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 7: of a social of class, apart from anything else that's
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 7: coming on.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, great reference, by the way.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 6: I like that at least I remember back, and this
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 6: is this is off topic. When I was like twelve
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 6: or fifteen or whatever it was, I stayed the night
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 6: at my best friend's house and he had his parents
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 6: owned a pizza place, and it had a bunch of
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 6: what is it called, like anyway, a bunch of games,
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 6: and we listened to that while playing old school MLB baseball,
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 6: and we listeded on to repeat that same song in
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 6: a cassette in a fucking thing, and it was amazing. Anyway,
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 6: now you all know that.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 7: It's a great image of it.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we'll probably eventually start to wrap it
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: up in a little bit. But I did want to
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: ask in all of your studies getting into this type
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: of topic. Was there anything that surprised you or changed
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: your way of looking at anything?
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 7: I think, going back to yeah, the the sort of
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 7: the origin of all this, I do think the religious
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 7: element really surprised me. I did not expect it to
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 7: be so imbued in Christianity. And I also I didn't
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 7: expect Christianity to be such a broad church. I mean,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 7: obviously I realized it's a broad church now, but like
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 7: Catholicism is such a dynamic religion and the kind of
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 7: the fact that it's sort of it makes space for
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 7: all sorts of magical practices and magical creatures, Like a
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 7: lot of catholic which you'res h had like sort of
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 7: very strong ideas of how fairies worked and who they were,
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 7: and just you know, kind of how how the universe
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 7: fits together and how it makes sense that you would
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 7: also have gnomes or you know, other spirits. And I
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 7: really love that, Like I feel like, you know, it's
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 7: quite easy to see sort of Christianity is quite oppressive,
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 7: and I feel like a lot of it is Okay,
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 7: it can be very very oppressive and quite you know,
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 7: sort of restrictive and harmful to people. But also medieval
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 7: Catholicism especially, I think, actually had a lot of flexibility
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 7: in it that I've really come to respect. So yeah,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 7: I think that was the main thing that surprised me.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 7: And that's not particularly sort of profound, but yeah, that's
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 7: a surprise.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: Why.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is actually really interesting because like the Catholic
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: faith itself was created as for like a pagan version
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: of Christianity in a way, So that is interesting that
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: I didn't actually know that either. That's so they embrace
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: like the fairies and the gnomes. That was like, yeah, okay,
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: that's cool.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 7: I mean like not everybody obviously, but I mean yeah,
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 7: there definitely are sort of yeah, Catholic practitioners would we're
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 7: very very comfortable with that and kind of yeah, going
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 7: to woodlands or sort of springs and wells and that
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 7: kind of thing, sort of you know, using those locations
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 7: to some spirits because they were so so alive, I
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 7: guess with supernatural forces like that is is something that
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 7: you see in medieval magic that I just yeah, yeah,
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 7: but they didn't see anything inconsistent about that, right, which
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 7: I just think is really cool.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: M So it was mainly like the Protestant ones that, like,
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: I guess kind of a rapid up, like the Protestant
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: religion didn't necessarily agree with the fairies and the like
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: doing the whole thing.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 5: Is that kind of.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it's again, it's really hard. It's really
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 7: hard to generalized. Like you know, you talk to sort
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 7: of fifty Christians now and ask them who God is
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 7: and they'll give you a different answer, right, Like, but yeah,
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 7: I think, yeah, Protestantism tried to slim down the religion
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 7: a lot and be like, if it's not in the Bible,
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 7: it's not true. But then you also find a lot
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 7: of protests who are quite happy talking to ghosts. So
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 7: you know, what do you do with that?
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Uh. The last question unless does anybody have anything
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: they want to ask? Okay, for the book, if people
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: could get one thing out of it, what do you
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: hope it is? Oh?
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 7: Oh, I said it before and I'll say it again.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 7: Be kind, Be kind to each other, Be kind to
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 7: people in the past, be kind to people in the future,
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 7: because we're all just trying to figure out out and
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 7: that's how people. Magic is how people did in the past.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 7: People continue to use that now. Whatever works for you,
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 7: Just be kind, I like.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: It very well, said, well, thank you very much, doctor
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: Tabitha Stare. That was awesome. That was a really good chat.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: I mean I actually plenty I had plenty of more
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: stuff I could have asked you about. It's just went
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: on forever. Ye when you when you're done with that
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: other work, if you would ever like to come on
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: and talk about that or promote that, that sounds really
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: interesting as well. Definitely definitely. Yeah. Before we wrap it
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: up'll let everybody kind of remind every you know, remind
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: all the listeners where they can find in their work, Uh,
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: Brandon Maggie's what is up? Let everybody know they can
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: find all the amazing stuff.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 6: Great, Thanks Nick, Thanks Cardinal electric Head, the King of
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 6: the occult rejects himself. I always appreciate it, so grateful
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 6: for everything that he has done for me and this
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 6: brilliant community as we move.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 4: Forward and the strangeness of the world.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 6: You can find me at Magus in the media, on YouTube, x, Instagram, TikTok.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 6: Even though I can't stand the oracle of it doesn't matter,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 6: but you can find me on all those things. I'm
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 6: going to be soon putting it on Spotify. And Apple.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 6: We're taking over the audio world that we're going. We're
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 6: going big because this world needs a little bit of myth,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 6: magic and meaning.
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 4: Today.
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 6: If you haven't already, head over to my channel. I
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 6: just dropped my interview conversation with a great Angel Miller.
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 6: It is fantastic. It's about the Supernatural Woman, the book
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 6: that he just came out with, and as well as
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 6: we get into the modern situation about masculinity in our
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 6: place in this world and how this dichotomy is integrating
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 6: into this great sacred marriage we talked about Freemasonry, We
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 6: get into the Ice Wars of the early nineteen nineties
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 6: and all the crazy shit that I didn't actually.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 4: Know what was going on at that time.
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 6: I am also having tomorrow at one o'clock block Central time,
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 6: come join me and the Great r Marks for our
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 6: conversation on Philip K. Dick, Robert Anton Wilson and the
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 6: Operation Mind Fuck. Come figuring out the title right now.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 6: I'm gonna be putting that up here soon, so everyone
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 6: come join me and ropy as we go deep into
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 6: the madness and meaning of those things. Also dropping Lon
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 6: Milo's interview that I did with him next week, as
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 6: well as I got one with Alan Chapman.
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 4: Just continuing crushing interviews.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 6: As well as every Monday Night with the Great Kaiva Rose,
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 6: my love and partner. We are going to be crushing
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 6: our Monday night show, Nick, it will be there and
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 6: we're gonna be talking about the black mirrors, optics, the
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 6: ocular and all things MK Ultra, I guess and magic
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 6: can help it. They're interconnected as well as Nick and
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 6: I are going to continue doing shows once a week
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 6: as long as we can get our shit together and
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 6: organize it well.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: So yes.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 6: And then also he's not here, but shout out to
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 6: the Threshold Saints, the Great Jin the Ninja. He's always
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 6: coming on and co hosting shows on Magus.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 4: And the media. Yeah, thank you.
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 6: I'm gonna be probably reaching out to doctor Tabitha stan
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 6: Moore to have her come on my show and talk
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 6: about her book as well as long as you will, So.
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 4: Thank you, doctor Tabitha.
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 6: This conversation was amazing and better than I already thought
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 6: it was going to be great before we started, so
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 6: I appreciate you and I'm going to stop before I
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 6: carry on like Jules does.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: So that's real funny. Thank you very much. Fred and
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it, right man, thank you. Uh Kaiva, please
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: let everybody know what's up with you and all Ustaff.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. This is a wonderful conversation. I learned
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: quite a bit today, so I appreciate that. You can
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: find me at eleven Kaiba Rose thirty three dot com.
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: I'm on YouTube, Instagram and Facebook. I post daily and
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: weekly astrology videos and yep, you can also get a
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: reading with me by going to my website.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 5: And I appreciate you all for having me on.
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you, of course I was happy when you can
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: make it kinda thank you Robbie Marks, Sir.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 3: Yes, I just want to say thank you, doctor Tabitha.
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 3: This kind of history is like, you know, near and
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 3: dear to my heart. It's like the stuff I love
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: delving into and kind of tearing apart and examining all
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 3: the pieces. As far as myself, I'm our Marx, I'm
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 3: an artist illustrator. And you can go over to my
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 3: link tree which is link tree r M A r
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: X and that'll pull up all my miscellaneous website, my Etsy,
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 3: my social media as well as my metamind cast and
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 3: thanks a lot, Nick again, It's always fun and yeah,
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 3: great conversation.
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, thank you, Robbie. Always appreciated when you can
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: make it on Man and Tabitha. Please let everybody know
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: about your books or anything you'd like to promote.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 7: Okay, well, again, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 7: I've had a great time. And yeah, I mean I
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 7: do not have as many things going on as well
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 7: have you do. Just gonna be sitting with my cat
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 7: researching the next book. But yeah, if anybody has any questions,
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 7: feel free to get in touch on Instagram. That's basically
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 7: the only social I'm on now apart from Blue Sky. Yeah,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 7: at to have the stand more. I will answer pretty
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 7: much any question. And yeah, so Cunning Folk Life and
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 7: Year of Practical Magic is available in the UK and
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 7: in North America and praasically everything was speaking country, so
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 7: you know, feel free to get hold of a copy
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 7: if you like. And yeah, stay tuned for the Devil
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 7: and the Fans. It will come out at some point
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 7: in the future. But yeah, again, thank you so much
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 7: for having me.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: No, thank you again, it was really a blas I
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: thought it was a great discussion. Well, hopefully I get
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: you on in the future to talk some more about
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: this stuff. It was really good. It was nice, it
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: was better. Like Brandon said, it was better than I expected.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: Love it and thank you everybody who jumped in for
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: the live and for the chat. How would thank you again?
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: Of course, my man. That's where we go live because
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: you guys like jumping on and uh yeah. That's the
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: end of the that's the end of the show and
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: until the next one. Everybody be well later keep mm hmm.