Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / The Courage to Heal | Kellie Carter-Bell

Transcript

The Courage to Heal | Kellie Carter-Bell · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Appote production. This podcast contains references to extreme physical violence
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Speaker 1: and psychological trauma. It is not recommended for younger audiences
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Speaker 1: and listener discretion is advised. Welcome to Real Crime with
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Speaker 1: Adam Shand I'm your host Adam Shand. Kelly Carterbell is
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Speaker 1: a walking, talking example of the power of resilience and love.
0:36
Speaker 1: She really should be dead after what she's gone through
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Speaker 1: after being attacked by her husband in her workplace. This
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Speaker 1: had followed years of dangerous liaisons in the criminal world.
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Speaker 1: She was one of four sisters. She's the sole survivor,
0:51
Speaker 1: having lost all three siblings to drugs. Remarkably, she's also
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Speaker 1: the daughter of a police officer who made a move
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Speaker 1: on her mum while her criminal husband was in jail.
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Speaker 1: That copper he disappeared when the crook came out of jail.
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Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to be able to reunite Kelly
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Speaker 1: with her dad after forty years. How do I say this?
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Speaker 1: I found him?
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Speaker 2: Oh?
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Speaker 3: Is he wise?
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Speaker 1: Yeah? He is.
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Speaker 3: I'm sorry that I've been waiting for that for forty
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Speaker 3: six years.
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Speaker 1: This was a lucky break for kell and she deserved it,
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Speaker 1: and she hasn't looked back. She's now an advocate for
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Speaker 1: women suffering domestic violence, and she's in the Real Crime
1:44
Speaker 1: studio to tell her story. Get a kel good.
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Speaker 2: A Adam, How's things are amazing. The amazing thing is
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Speaker 2: what left me to be amazing is that missing piece
1:58
Speaker 2: in the puzzle, which was my dad. And when I
2:02
Speaker 2: connected with him, myself worth, my confidence, my love for myself.
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Speaker 2: It made me realize that I am a lovable human
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Speaker 2: being who deserves to be loved.
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Speaker 1: It was one of the most rewarding things of Mike.
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Speaker 1: When people ask me what story is that? I think
2:18
Speaker 1: it really memorable that was one of them, because what
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Speaker 1: I couldn't believe was that you'd done interviews with other
2:23
Speaker 1: journalists about all your adventures in the underworld with your
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Speaker 1: various partners and your husband, and no one had asked
2:31
Speaker 1: you what happened to your father. You actually bowled me
2:33
Speaker 1: up in an antique store in South Melbourne here and
2:36
Speaker 1: you said, I've got a story for you. And when
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Speaker 1: you started chatting, you've talked about your dad. I've gone like, hey,
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Speaker 1: why hasn't someone found this bloke? It didn't take me long.
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Speaker 1: It turned out, funnily enough that when I was in
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Speaker 1: Perth doing a radio show. He used to ring up
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Speaker 1: to the show, so I'd already spoken him with. One
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Speaker 1: of those things was destiny. But you deserve to break
2:53
Speaker 1: because you've been through the absolute meal. Let's talk about
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Speaker 1: where you began.
3:00
Speaker 2: Where I began was the youngest I can remember, was
3:04
Speaker 2: probably being about four years old and watching mumby beaten
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Speaker 2: by my sister's father. There was love, there was dinners cooked,
3:15
Speaker 2: there was connection, there was routine when Dad was around.
3:20
Speaker 2: All that went out the window as soon as the
3:22
Speaker 2: roles had to be reversed when my sister's father would
3:26
Speaker 2: be released from prison. So I can remember sitting at
3:30
Speaker 2: windows at that age with Mum waiting to see whether
3:33
Speaker 2: Snookie was going to be drunk or not, and whether
3:37
Speaker 2: that mean a beating for her or not.
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Speaker 1: Snooky the Crook sounds like a lovable, cuddly person, but
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Speaker 1: he was far from that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, to some people he might be that, but
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Speaker 2: to me he was I was like a pawn almost.
3:54
Speaker 2: I was sometimes made to call him Dad. I remember
3:59
Speaker 2: one day he bought me a bike for my birthday,
4:02
Speaker 2: but when I think back, that was probably because of
4:06
Speaker 2: what happened prior the night before, the day before, or
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Speaker 2: it was like, Yeah, it was like a piece of
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Speaker 2: meat almost, you know, from from a nice life to
4:21
Speaker 2: a shitty, shitty, shitty life. And when Dad disappeared that
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Speaker 2: life the shitty shitty shittiness lasted until I was I
4:31
Speaker 2: broke the cycle from being hit twenty years ago. But
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Speaker 2: the recovery of this and what I've lived is daily.
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Speaker 1: Because all you saw was a criminal role model for men,
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Speaker 1: and you ended up dating a succession of Underworld characters,
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Speaker 1: some of the big names that we all know, like
4:52
Speaker 1: Mark Moran was a good friend of yours and other
4:54
Speaker 1: people like that. Jed Horton. I think you knew all those,
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Speaker 1: all those Della they're all dead, Yeah, they're all dead.
5:03
Speaker 2: Like when I was thinking about coming into do this
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Speaker 2: with you, Adam, I remember I would have been about
5:09
Speaker 2: let's say eight or nine, and there was a few
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Speaker 2: bank robbers in Jaiker Jiker and Mum and I literally
5:20
Speaker 2: smuggled a gun in there. We had to put it
5:23
Speaker 2: on top of a locker. I'm not sure whether I've
5:26
Speaker 2: told you the story about my sister Sissy being in
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Speaker 2: Pentridge and telling me I have to go and see
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Speaker 2: her husband's brother Peter, because he's going to give me
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Speaker 2: a letter to give to her, but I have to
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Speaker 2: hide it. And I got to Peter's house and he said,
5:42
Speaker 2: do you know what you're doing. I was fourteen years
5:44
Speaker 2: of age. Do you know what you're doing? And I said, yeah,
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Speaker 2: I'm taking a letter into my sister. And he handed
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Speaker 2: me a bag of orange powder. I put it up
5:55
Speaker 2: my sleeve. I had a watch on and the old
5:58
Speaker 2: days with the scanners when you went to the prison
6:00
Speaker 2: and it beat, and thank goodness, it was my watch.
6:06
Speaker 2: So there was things like that that was cleaning up
6:09
Speaker 2: a murder after Dennis had killed the guy in the barrel,
6:12
Speaker 2: like literally painting walls, ripping up.
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Speaker 1: Carpet because you'd fallen in with Dennis Allen and his crew.
6:20
Speaker 1: And that kath pet and Gill down there in Cremorn,
6:23
Speaker 1: and I think you're talking about Anton Kenny. That's Hill's
6:26
Speaker 1: Angel who was murdered inside Dennis Allen's house. That was
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Speaker 1: a charnel house that placed there several murders in there.
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Speaker 2: There certainly were, yes, certainly, and it just fascinates me
6:36
Speaker 2: to think that that was the norm. You know, I
6:40
Speaker 2: hear the barrel being found in the river, and I
6:43
Speaker 2: know it's my brother in law. And it's just normal.
6:48
Speaker 2: I mean prior to that, like we've spoken about my
6:52
Speaker 2: childhood sexual assault that I wasn't aware of until I've
6:56
Speaker 2: done an amazing boxing program and that consisted of my
7:01
Speaker 2: first time was four, my next time was eight, and
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Speaker 2: then gang rate from eleven to thirteen by the Carlton Boys.
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Speaker 2: So I didn't know I was almost worthless or lovable
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Speaker 2: until my dad come into my life.
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Speaker 1: You know what, You've never told me that part of
7:25
Speaker 1: the story. No, And it chills me to my bones.
7:28
Speaker 1: That's just I already knew you'd been through a lot,
7:30
Speaker 1: but that's just beyond.
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Speaker 2: Imagining it is it is? But like I always say,
7:37
Speaker 2: I'm the chosen one, aren't I? Why why? And I
7:41
Speaker 2: have the courage to speak and my passion is to
7:45
Speaker 2: pay my lifetime of abuse forward. Like why did I
7:50
Speaker 2: end up like that? Is it Dad's brains and Mum's strength.
7:56
Speaker 2: I'm not sure.
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Speaker 1: I think the religious people talk about God gives us
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Speaker 1: our own burden to carry because he knows we're strong enough,
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Speaker 1: and you've proven that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
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Speaker 1: At the same time, and I don't want to overshadow Natroman,
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Speaker 1: You've definitely suffered, But being a partner to an underworld
8:13
Speaker 1: figure had a certain racy, thrilling element to it.
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Speaker 2: Try to describe that, Oh, it definitely did. Going from
8:21
Speaker 2: the days to oh where did I start? Would have
8:26
Speaker 2: been Olfonse, Mark Jason. After the gang rate was happening,
8:31
Speaker 2: Mark sort of took me under his wing and tried
8:35
Speaker 2: to show me a different way. Mike Moran, Yes, didn't
8:37
Speaker 2: abuse me or anything like that. That went on to
8:41
Speaker 2: you know, nightclubbing at fifteen, like I said, with ol
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Speaker 2: Fonts and then people the doors just open, you know.
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Speaker 1: Alphonse Gangitana, the Black Prince of leg On Street.
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Speaker 2: That's it. That's it. And now the doors of the
8:53
Speaker 2: nightclub just open. The drinks are lined up, the drugs
8:55
Speaker 2: are there, whatever you want, you know, bags of diamonds
9:00
Speaker 2: can come into the Jaiker Jaiker Hotel, you name it.
9:04
Speaker 2: And there's an other thing, Adam. When I was about
9:07
Speaker 2: I would have been just after Gary Abdallah was murdered. No,
9:12
Speaker 2: Gary Abdallah was still alive actually because he ended up
9:14
Speaker 2: with the gun. I don't know whether this is going
9:18
Speaker 2: to get me in trouble or not, but I picked
9:20
Speaker 2: up a policeman's gun outside Ragan's nightclub, in Essendon. I
9:26
Speaker 2: give that gun to Gary ab Della. Now I'm not
9:30
Speaker 2: sure what that was used for or what that was
9:33
Speaker 2: used in afterwards, Like honestly, I would have been maybe
9:39
Speaker 2: fifteen or sixteen by this stage.
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Speaker 1: Because Abdellah was part of the Flemington crew of armed robbers,
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Speaker 1: including Victor Pierce, Graham Jensen and a whole bunch of others,
9:50
Speaker 1: and they obviously went on to infamy. After Graham Jensen
9:53
Speaker 1: was killed by police, they went on to kill two
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Speaker 1: police officers in Wall Street, South Era. That's right, But
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Speaker 1: you wonder whether that might have been part of that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I often wonder where that ended up, like the
10:07
Speaker 2: gun from h Division. And imagine if that bag of
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Speaker 2: orange heroin, the highest grade of heroin that's ever been
10:13
Speaker 2: in Australia, had killed.
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Speaker 1: My sisters, because you lost all three.
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Speaker 2: In the end, Yes, in the end, one hung herself,
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Speaker 2: Sissy who married Dennis in prison. Tammy died in a
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Speaker 2: street in Carlton in a car, and Carrie died eleven
10:34
Speaker 2: hours after being released from prison. But she did rob
10:39
Speaker 2: the Chinese mafia, so we're not sure whether she had
10:44
Speaker 2: a hot shot or.
10:45
Speaker 1: Not hot shot being someone administered that to her, to
10:48
Speaker 1: kill her, to murder her.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, footscrade, train station, car park.
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Speaker 1: And the problem is, back in those days, someone like
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Speaker 1: your sister, they would be hard pressed to get a
10:57
Speaker 1: proper investigation.
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's like they were just they weren't treated
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Speaker 2: as humans back then, because Heroin added, it's not like
11:05
Speaker 2: it is today. You know, I could just being tormented
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Speaker 2: and laughed at. And I had a dream that a
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Speaker 2: friend's dad died, and silly me went to school and
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Speaker 2: told her I've never met the man in my life.
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Speaker 2: And the next day he fell asleep at the wheel
11:23
Speaker 2: of his truck and died. So I was once again
11:27
Speaker 2: after being the gang right. Then it went on to
11:30
Speaker 2: bullying because everyone blamed me for her dad dying. And
11:34
Speaker 2: then by thirteen, first partner, first black eye.
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Speaker 1: The start of unspeakable violence because you went from the
11:42
Speaker 1: frying pan into the fire because you ended up hooking
11:45
Speaker 1: up with a man named Peter yep and what was
11:48
Speaker 1: his background?
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Speaker 2: Watch dad beat mum, so thought it was okay to
11:52
Speaker 2: do it. Buddy's brother was an AFL footballer. So your
11:56
Speaker 2: choices are what make the difference. As I've learned, as
12:01
Speaker 2: I'm recovering what I've worked out with perpetrators people with
12:05
Speaker 2: narcissism disorder. They don't change, you have to. I'm still
12:12
Speaker 2: to this day being tormented by my last partner to
12:17
Speaker 2: his daughter, a twenty two year old that he's now
12:21
Speaker 2: turned the abuse to her. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an endless cycle.
12:27
Speaker 2: It is, it is.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and let's go back to Peter though. Yep, he
12:32
Speaker 1: you discovered later. There was happy times in the beginning,
12:35
Speaker 1: I presume, but there was always violence.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So first black Eye at thirteen, like there,
12:41
Speaker 2: I had to He was so possessed with me that
12:45
Speaker 2: I had to ride my pushbike from Princess Hill High
12:48
Speaker 2: School to Melbourne UNI every lunch time because that's where
12:51
Speaker 2: mum worked, to sit with her. So I couldn't speak
12:54
Speaker 2: to anyone, couldn't look at anyone at school, and then
12:58
Speaker 2: ride back within forty five minutes or something. You know,
13:02
Speaker 2: all my lunch money went to him black Eyes. Often
13:06
Speaker 2: going to school with black Eyes, Adam, like the duty
13:10
Speaker 2: of care being gang raped. I got pregnant and the
13:14
Speaker 2: school knew and they called me in the office and
13:18
Speaker 2: nothing has ever been done. I went to school with
13:21
Speaker 2: black eyes, no duty of care, and I'm chasing you know,
13:27
Speaker 2: chasing some kind of reimbursement for what I've been through
13:33
Speaker 2: in school and them knowing what was happening. It was
13:36
Speaker 2: happening at lunch time, but not on school grounds.
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Speaker 1: So you think you might go a financial compensation hopefully. Well,
13:44
Speaker 1: I think that's quite reasonable. I mean, there is a
13:46
Speaker 1: duty of care there, and there was even back then
13:48
Speaker 1: there was a thing called the police. Yes, who could
13:50
Speaker 1: have been called in. Yeah, I mean I think back
13:52
Speaker 1: in those days though, I feel like violence against young
13:55
Speaker 1: women in particular was almost like a social welfare issue
13:58
Speaker 1: rather than a crime.
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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. In the end, with Peter, to get away
14:03
Speaker 2: from him, I used to have to have a taxi
14:05
Speaker 2: waiting outside the school and get a taxi quickly home
14:09
Speaker 2: to the Carlton flat and run up the stairs. But
14:13
Speaker 2: then there might be two nights later where he'd be
14:16
Speaker 2: outside at two in the morning, I'd go downstairs to
14:19
Speaker 2: him and wake up with two black eyes and no
14:21
Speaker 2: questions asked.
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Speaker 1: So how did you finally get away from that relationship?
14:29
Speaker 2: When I think about it, it's I'm not sure. I
14:33
Speaker 2: think I realized that there was more to life and
14:37
Speaker 2: I wanted to do something with myself, like I was
14:40
Speaker 2: so desperate at school, I called my woodwork teacher dad, Like,
14:46
Speaker 2: I was so desperate for love. That's all I ever wanted,
14:52
Speaker 2: and that's what I chase, But I chased it with
14:54
Speaker 2: the wrong people. Now I know, as long as I
14:57
Speaker 2: love myself, that's the main thing. But yeah, Like, how
15:03
Speaker 2: desperate's that you to be calling you would work teacher dad.
15:08
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's natural in that circumstance where you're
15:11
Speaker 1: not getting any.
15:12
Speaker 2: He resembled the look of my dad, and I just
15:16
Speaker 2: I think it was probably one of the first men
15:18
Speaker 2: that understood what I was going through and took some care.
15:22
Speaker 1: Because your real dad was far away. Yeah, and he
15:25
Speaker 1: started his own family in another place. Yes, Yeah, And
15:28
Speaker 1: you must have thought about him over the years.
15:31
Speaker 2: From the minute he left, I thought, if my dad left,
15:36
Speaker 2: it was my fault. And then it was when I
15:39
Speaker 2: was about thirty eight forty I realized, no, Dad left
15:44
Speaker 2: because he loved me. So from forty to fifty four
15:47
Speaker 2: when you found him, that question lingered in my head
15:52
Speaker 2: that did he leave because he loved me? Or did
15:54
Speaker 2: he leave because he.
15:55
Speaker 1: Didn't love me and he was scared of the consequences.
15:58
Speaker 1: We'll jump forward to be here. He was scared of
16:00
Speaker 1: the consequences. And when I did find him and I
16:02
Speaker 1: called him, and initially he sort of went, no, I
16:05
Speaker 1: don't have a daughter, And I said, yes you do, mate,
16:08
Speaker 1: Yes you do, and you should be proud of her.
16:10
Speaker 1: And I'd like to reintroduce you. And that was the
16:13
Speaker 1: start of your revival. But you had to go through
16:16
Speaker 1: so many years of drama. Peter was off the scene.
16:20
Speaker 1: But then John, the man.
16:22
Speaker 2: You married yep at nineteen years of age in Pintroridge. Yeah,
16:28
Speaker 2: there was. He was a small time crook, yeah, rapist, rapist, murderer, pedophile,
16:37
Speaker 2: not so small.
16:38
Speaker 1: Time actually no, but certainly not a big criminal name
16:41
Speaker 1: of the underworld.
16:42
Speaker 2: No, don't go and rob a bank in your own car,
16:45
Speaker 2: do you?
16:47
Speaker 1: Yeah? Trap for young players, rob the bank in your
16:50
Speaker 1: own car? Yeah, Because later on you discovered he wasn't
16:55
Speaker 1: just abusing you. He was a serial rapist who became
16:58
Speaker 1: known as the Heidelberg Rapist in Melbourne.
17:00
Speaker 2: Yes he was, and that never stopped at him. But
17:03
Speaker 2: I wasn't aware he was raping. And the whole time I.
17:06
Speaker 1: Was with him, how many victims.
17:10
Speaker 2: Ten including nieces and my mother.
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Speaker 1: Your own mother that one point twice you're telling me
17:19
Speaker 1: new things here, Kelly.
17:20
Speaker 2: No one ever told me Adam until he tried to kill.
17:23
Speaker 1: Me because you I'm not going to say it was
17:27
Speaker 1: a stable family, but you stayed together. There was a union,
17:31
Speaker 1: that's call it that. But it was full of violence.
17:34
Speaker 2: There were children, Yep, my first baby. Unfortunately I lost
17:39
Speaker 2: a hydro cafless Heather Eve. She would be thirty seven,
17:44
Speaker 2: nearly thirty eight. Makes me feel a bit old. And then,
17:48
Speaker 2: like we spoke about in the last podcast, was their
17:50
Speaker 2: sexual abuse with John, Yes, there was, because I had
17:53
Speaker 2: four children under four, including twins. Yeah, and I was
17:59
Speaker 2: just now that I can look back at it, I
18:01
Speaker 2: was just like a slave, Just like a slave if
18:04
Speaker 2: I didn't get that dinner on the table looking after
18:07
Speaker 2: four kids underfore, you fat, lazy bitch, What have you
18:09
Speaker 2: been doing all day? But I didn't realize that that
18:12
Speaker 2: was abuse. And there was not a lot of physical
18:15
Speaker 2: abuse with John, but the mental and the torment and
18:21
Speaker 2: everything that goes in between.
18:23
Speaker 1: And finally you had to get away, not just from
18:25
Speaker 1: him but from this state.
18:27
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, what happened. Yes, So John and Henry Morhun
18:32
Speaker 2: killed a man that had robbed Henry's wife for a
18:36
Speaker 2: gold bracelet. He come home and told me once again,
18:41
Speaker 2: another murder. I don't do anything with it. It was
18:46
Speaker 2: a really interesting scary time Adam because he wouldn't take
18:49
Speaker 2: police protection, so he was still going to court with Henry.
18:56
Speaker 2: Although he turned.
18:57
Speaker 1: Dog, he was giving up his brother.
18:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, we went into witness protection. We
19:04
Speaker 2: changed name. Hims moved from Frankston to Mornington because he
19:08
Speaker 2: thought he could look after us. Had to change names
19:11
Speaker 2: again because Henry apparently found out who we were and
19:17
Speaker 2: in that witness protection wheel, Oh my god, that was terrifying.
19:23
Speaker 2: You know, there was you got to go to all
19:26
Speaker 2: these undisclosed places almost you know, to get a tax
19:31
Speaker 2: file number, to get on the plane, like to go
19:34
Speaker 2: to court. We were living up in Queensland and that
19:38
Speaker 2: system was terrifying. One night we were in a motel
19:42
Speaker 2: in Bell Street, Preston, and homicide squad detective was with us,
19:47
Speaker 2: and the people downstairs who run the hotel knew something
19:50
Speaker 2: was happening but didn't know what it was. I had
19:54
Speaker 2: the two kids, very pregnant with my twins. They ring
20:00
Speaker 2: up about twelve o'clock and say, we've just found a
20:02
Speaker 2: man outside your door. He said, he's d here last
20:05
Speaker 2: night and he's looking for the toilet. So thank goodness,
20:09
Speaker 2: a homicide squad detective was armed. And I'm standing in
20:14
Speaker 2: this motel room with two kids, heavily pregnant. Why they
20:19
Speaker 2: run out to look for him, and that took about
20:22
Speaker 2: half an hour. Oh god, I was thinking he's waiting
20:27
Speaker 2: around for that plan for them to run to come
20:30
Speaker 2: and get me. And when John did turn witness protection
20:35
Speaker 2: protected witness, I imagined that I would be murdered by
20:39
Speaker 2: Henry all the time. Yeah, he was a bad, bad man.
20:43
Speaker 2: And yeah, him and John did some disgusting things together,
20:49
Speaker 2: made friends in jail, as you do, and yeah, I
20:53
Speaker 2: was still learning the lesson.
20:55
Speaker 1: And that's the funny thing about if you give States evidence,
20:58
Speaker 1: your name is suppressed forever until after your death. So
21:03
Speaker 1: it prevented you from telling the story in a full
21:08
Speaker 1: way and identifying him and also possibly giving other victims
21:13
Speaker 1: a chance to know, yes, this was the man who
21:16
Speaker 1: raped you.
21:17
Speaker 2: Yep, exactly. When we went to court against Henry, his
21:22
Speaker 2: record ended up in the room with the jury, so
21:29
Speaker 2: he I don't know anyway, he got off it. He
21:32
Speaker 2: got off it, and we'd moved, we'd changed names, We've
21:34
Speaker 2: done everything. I got a phone call from the witness
21:37
Speaker 2: protection place, I can remember it quite significantly, telling me
21:42
Speaker 2: that he got off. I just sat on that phone
21:46
Speaker 2: and sobbed for I reckon. It was about an hour
21:49
Speaker 2: while the copper listened to me, tried to console me. Yeah,
21:54
Speaker 2: I thought Dan, for sure he's going to come. And
21:56
Speaker 2: I always thought that he'd get me, cut me up
21:59
Speaker 2: into little pieces, put me in an envelope, and send
22:01
Speaker 2: me back to John. But in the end it was
22:04
Speaker 2: John that almost cut me up.
22:07
Speaker 1: Let's get to that.
22:08
Speaker 2: What happened, Okay, So there wasn't violence, and there was
22:13
Speaker 2: all the other abuse that I didn't understand. I thought
22:18
Speaker 2: a black eye was violent still though I'd lived it
22:20
Speaker 2: for thirty something years, and I thought a black eye
22:23
Speaker 2: was full of love. There was lots of arguing of things.
22:27
Speaker 2: We had four children under four. He worked fifteen hours
22:30
Speaker 2: a day. He was drinking a lot that was trying
22:34
Speaker 2: to hide from me. One day I found a marijuana
22:38
Speaker 2: plant growing out in the backyard, and my mum was
22:41
Speaker 2: up on a holiday and I said, no chance, and
22:45
Speaker 2: I went out and put it over the back fence
22:47
Speaker 2: and smashed it. And Mum was absolutely terrified because he
22:51
Speaker 2: hasn't got home from school, and he walked in and
22:54
Speaker 2: he went out and found it, and he walked in
22:56
Speaker 2: and he said, fuck your gout balls. So that must
23:02
Speaker 2: have been one of his good days. He told people
23:06
Speaker 2: at work for six weeks where he was working, watch
23:09
Speaker 2: the news, Watch what I'm going to do. Watch the news,
23:12
Speaker 2: Watch what I'm going to do. I took an intervention
23:15
Speaker 2: order out on him three weeks prior because I was
23:18
Speaker 2: getting threats. He went to my workplace at Westfield Shopping Town,
23:23
Speaker 2: cut up all my car tires. He went to my
23:26
Speaker 2: house with my four year old son, cut up with
23:29
Speaker 2: my work clothes. I was working for Fletcher Jones, so
23:32
Speaker 2: even though I had the four kids under four, still
23:36
Speaker 2: wanted to go to work. After we'd separated, he would
23:39
Speaker 2: hassle me. He'd ring the work, he'd drop the kids off,
23:43
Speaker 2: you know, earlier than what he should it, so I'd
23:45
Speaker 2: have to leave work. It was a lot of Now
23:47
Speaker 2: I no coercive control, and I ended up becoming friends
23:53
Speaker 2: with a lovely guy. He would have the kids on
23:55
Speaker 2: the weekend and one of the kids said, Ken's at
24:00
Speaker 2: mummy's house. And well, from then, the threats in front
24:05
Speaker 2: of my children. Of what he would wear was a
24:09
Speaker 2: father's day outfit. I'd bought him prior from the children,
24:12
Speaker 2: from Fletcher Jones where he would do it, how he
24:16
Speaker 2: would do it, and when he would do it. And
24:18
Speaker 2: not only that, he made my four year old son
24:23
Speaker 2: that had been listening for three weeks what he was
24:26
Speaker 2: going to do to me, choose the knife to kill
24:30
Speaker 2: his mother. My son didn't tell me till he was sixteen.
24:36
Speaker 2: And then you're at work, yep, I'm at work. I've
24:40
Speaker 2: dropped the twenties off at day Kemm because he had
24:47
Speaker 2: James and Paris, the older two, for three weeks. I'm
24:50
Speaker 2: in witness protection three weeks. And the police were too
24:56
Speaker 2: scared to go and serve an intervention in order on
24:59
Speaker 2: him to get witness protection, please from down here to
25:03
Speaker 2: let him know he's going to be so. And then
25:06
Speaker 2: about ten coppers went there to serve him. But I
25:09
Speaker 2: had to go to a refuge with the two kids
25:12
Speaker 2: for three weeks. He wouldn't give James and Paris back,
25:15
Speaker 2: and they were too scared to go and do anything.
25:17
Speaker 1: And that piece of paper made no difference anywhere.
25:19
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's like a magic carpet right almost,
25:22
Speaker 2: you know, you lifted up and then all of a
25:25
Speaker 2: sudden boom, it's just worthless. That made him a lot worse,
25:32
Speaker 2: as in, that's when I'm going to kill you, or
25:36
Speaker 2: I'm going to slice your lips off, so another man,
25:39
Speaker 2: I'll never look at you. Lots of different threats, and yeah,
25:43
Speaker 2: the day come what happened. He was wearing what he
25:47
Speaker 2: told me he'd be wearing, and I could see him
25:51
Speaker 2: walking towards me. I was working with my boss at
25:53
Speaker 2: the time. The work knew what was going on because
25:56
Speaker 2: he was ringing Fletcher Jones, threatening everyone, and he had
26:03
Speaker 2: James and Paris in the car with him down in
26:05
Speaker 2: a Westfield shopping town car park. The flatmate was driving,
26:09
Speaker 2: and he said to the flatmate, as soon as you
26:12
Speaker 2: hear sirens take off, So he had fears spilt down
26:16
Speaker 2: in the front of him. I could see him walking
26:18
Speaker 2: towards me, and I could see that. Then I could
26:21
Speaker 2: smell it, and I noticed that his shirt was sort
26:23
Speaker 2: of tucked out from the front of his pants. And
26:27
Speaker 2: he said to me, you can't lay these charges, And
26:29
Speaker 2: I said, what charges. It's bloody intervention order to teach
26:32
Speaker 2: you you can't do what you want. And he was
26:37
Speaker 2: walking towards a corner and I was following him to
26:40
Speaker 2: shut him up and not, you know, cause any chaos.
26:45
Speaker 2: And I've seen him put his hand in his right
26:47
Speaker 2: pocket and then her pulls out a fileting knife and
26:51
Speaker 2: starts slashing at me. Basically, I have scars literally from
26:57
Speaker 2: head to toe on my face. There are four cuts,
27:01
Speaker 2: maybe through the control. He thought, well, if I can't
27:04
Speaker 2: kill her, mame person, I want to look at her again.
27:07
Speaker 2: That's what he always told me. And he did what
27:11
Speaker 2: he tried to do. There was no security, there was
27:14
Speaker 2: no help. There was a cleaner with a couple of
27:18
Speaker 2: disposable nappies I could put on my face and my back,
27:22
Speaker 2: my bum. I had a white dress on that was red.
27:27
Speaker 2: They took me to the store next door.
27:29
Speaker 1: He actually because then this cowardly piece of whatever, he
27:34
Speaker 1: turned the knife on himself.
27:36
Speaker 2: It didn't work. He can't even do that, right, But
27:39
Speaker 2: I so went ran to help him. And I could
27:42
Speaker 2: hear my boss screaming my name in the background, Cali Cally,
27:46
Speaker 2: So thank goodness you ran to help him. Yeah, yep, desperately,
27:51
Speaker 2: desperately Why because that's the person I am. Yeah, got
27:57
Speaker 2: a heart of gold with a diamond in the middle.
28:00
Speaker 2: I think that's that's the person I am. And there's
28:05
Speaker 2: no other answer.
28:06
Speaker 1: It's true. Yeah, but you survived that. What happened to him?
28:11
Speaker 2: Okay? So he went to hospital. He stabbed himself twice
28:17
Speaker 2: and the third time hit the sternum, so it sort
28:19
Speaker 2: of saved his life. But when they got him to hospital,
28:23
Speaker 2: they performed an operation on him that had never been
28:26
Speaker 2: performed before. So he had a sack of blood growing
28:29
Speaker 2: around his heart and they had to pierce it and
28:33
Speaker 2: that saved his life.
28:36
Speaker 1: So the next worthless life it was.
28:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, the next week in the career mail in Queensland,
28:42
Speaker 2: a double page right up of these wonderful doctors, how
28:45
Speaker 2: they saved this man's life. No explanation of why he
28:51
Speaker 2: was stabbed, what he'd done, or anything like that. Just
28:55
Speaker 2: an amazing story about these amazing doctors. And he was
29:00
Speaker 2: in charge with attempted murder?
29:02
Speaker 1: What was he charged with?
29:03
Speaker 2: Going equip to harm?
29:05
Speaker 1: That's all? Yep? Was that the end of the story
29:10
Speaker 1: with John and.
29:11
Speaker 2: You Not really he come back into the kid's life.
29:15
Speaker 2: When did he die? I think he died about two sixteen, maybe, yeah,
29:21
Speaker 2: because Yep. That's when I had the courage to start talking.
29:24
Speaker 2: I changed my life, really because I didn't have to
29:27
Speaker 2: sit in a restaurant with my back to the wall.
29:31
Speaker 2: I knew we couldn't come and kill me anymore, which
29:33
Speaker 2: is I thought would be the end.
29:35
Speaker 1: He died of cancer, I believe, Yeah, and karma and karma, Yeah,
29:39
Speaker 1: they called it right. Wack got his right wack maybe.
29:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, probably wasn't slow enough though, But he ended
29:46
Speaker 2: up remarrying I think Adam, and had no fucking ears.
29:51
Speaker 2: He cut them off and slushed flushed them down the
29:53
Speaker 2: toilet because he couldn't see his children because he tried
29:56
Speaker 2: to kill their mother. But some crazy woman married him
30:00
Speaker 2: and he had some superannuation and my kids weren't even
30:04
Speaker 2: in title to that.
30:06
Speaker 1: You know.
30:06
Speaker 2: I've never had a scent maintenance. Never. Yeah. So I've
30:12
Speaker 2: been raped by many many, many legal systems, a lot
30:17
Speaker 2: of systems. But I still fight because I need to
30:21
Speaker 2: leave a legacy for this children, because I'm talking this
30:25
Speaker 2: and this children have watched this. Because after John, I
30:28
Speaker 2: still thought I was a worthless piece of shit and
30:31
Speaker 2: went to the next pert well, and that was.
30:33
Speaker 1: A continuation of the abuse. You suffered, and I don't
30:36
Speaker 1: want to go too deep in that because this person's
30:38
Speaker 1: still around and he's still haunting your life in certain ways.
30:41
Speaker 1: So I don't want this to be the next signal.
30:43
Speaker 1: And if you're listening to your cowardly piece of whatever,
30:46
Speaker 1: you grow up. Grow up. But at least that relationship
30:50
Speaker 1: was a turning point and you started to get some
30:53
Speaker 1: self worth. You try to find that ability to get
30:55
Speaker 1: away from all this. And you had another mentor which
30:59
Speaker 1: I'm loving to throw in here, Shane Keith warn Yes
31:03
Speaker 1: of Test cricket fame. What did Warnie help you with?
31:07
Speaker 2: Well, I've loved Warnie since he was chubby with a mullet,
31:09
Speaker 2: which he used to hate me, saying, but I'd only
31:13
Speaker 2: been away from my last partner for three months. I
31:16
Speaker 2: went to Crown and met him at a club there,
31:18
Speaker 2: as you do. Sheard a little bit of my story
31:22
Speaker 2: and he was just fascinated. In five minutes, what are
31:25
Speaker 2: you talking about? What do you mean twenty three years
31:30
Speaker 2: domestic violence and your ex husband trying to kill you?
31:34
Speaker 2: I do not understand. And he sort of took me
31:40
Speaker 2: under his wing and taught me that I was a
31:42
Speaker 2: lovable human being who deserved to be loved and a
31:45
Speaker 2: beautiful person inside and out. And the ripple effect of
31:50
Speaker 2: that has literally changed my life. And I feel so
31:55
Speaker 2: privileged to have had that chance. And like I said,
32:00
Speaker 2: the ripple effect is priceless, and it goes on and
32:02
Speaker 2: on and on.
32:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't bowl of flip or a wrong or anything,
32:06
Speaker 1: but I'm very glad to be in the same company
32:08
Speaker 1: as Warning, because I think that gave you some self
32:11
Speaker 1: confidence and ability to go forward. And when you saw
32:14
Speaker 1: me in the antique store here Gray's on Clarendon's three,
32:18
Speaker 1: let's give Steve a bunk up here. You said, I've
32:21
Speaker 1: got a story and I want to tell you, and
32:23
Speaker 1: I had no choice but to come and tell your story.
32:26
Speaker 1: And it's continuing because now you become an advocate. I
32:29
Speaker 1: have tell us all about that.
32:31
Speaker 2: Okay. So, unfortunately, Adam, I was an alcoholic for fifteen years.
32:36
Speaker 2: I think I haven't hid that one from you. Maybe
32:38
Speaker 2: some Saturday nights late text you might have caught it.
32:41
Speaker 2: But I drank up to six years a night. I
32:46
Speaker 2: haven't had a drink for over eleven months. Nights of
32:48
Speaker 2: June is my freedom date. That will be a year.
32:52
Speaker 2: So as you can imagine that abuse helped me back.
32:55
Speaker 2: I thought alcohol was the answer. Alcohol was the anxiety.
32:59
Speaker 2: I went and did a boxing course and wrighting course
33:03
Speaker 2: called Left Right Wriit Hook. The documentary is now on Netflix.
33:09
Speaker 2: I'm not in it unfortunately. So what it does is,
33:13
Speaker 2: I'll just go back a little bit. I spent ten
33:15
Speaker 2: years in front of a psychiatrist, sometimes twice a week
33:18
Speaker 2: for about a year. It did a lot, but I
33:22
Speaker 2: still left with all this trauma in my invisible backpack
33:26
Speaker 2: or in my guts stuck. So I've done a lot
33:31
Speaker 2: of work, but I hadn't found me and my strength
33:34
Speaker 2: and my courage and my passion. So this boxing course
33:39
Speaker 2: is we go in, we get prompts. So there was
33:43
Speaker 2: a life changing one for me. That was the second class.
33:46
Speaker 2: I did the boxing class three rounds, so three eight
33:50
Speaker 2: weeks times I stood up for myself. Can you imagine
33:55
Speaker 2: what that looks like for me? Black and blue in
34:00
Speaker 2: a corner, And then we went in and we punched
34:04
Speaker 2: logs on the floor instead of the bags. We don't
34:07
Speaker 2: punch anyone except the bags and the other equipment. And
34:11
Speaker 2: something something happened. I don't know what it was. It
34:14
Speaker 2: was like, okay, the trauma's moving, No one's coming to
34:18
Speaker 2: hit me. I don't need to be scared. And gradually
34:23
Speaker 2: I found what I needed to get rid of and
34:26
Speaker 2: who zill had power of me? And yeah, that's what
34:29
Speaker 2: I did just week by week wrote like my journals
34:33
Speaker 2: would be a book. I'm going to do it again
34:36
Speaker 2: in June. Yeah. It just taught me that you can
34:39
Speaker 2: move the trauma at your body and when you do,
34:42
Speaker 2: you're unstoppable.
34:43
Speaker 1: Because there are women listening to this right now and
34:45
Speaker 1: possibly men as well. Who in You're in a terribly
34:49
Speaker 1: dark place, terribly dark place, but you managed.
34:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if I can do it, anyone can, you know?
34:56
Speaker 2: Losing three sisters to heroin not turning to that needle
34:59
Speaker 2: fascinates me. And like I always like to say, they
35:05
Speaker 2: don't change. You have to love, shouldn't hurt, and please
35:12
Speaker 2: please please don't ask us why don't we leave? What
35:17
Speaker 2: you can say is or the best question should be
35:20
Speaker 2: is what can I do to help you get out safe?
35:25
Speaker 2: Because if someone had asked me that twenty years ago,
35:28
Speaker 2: I would have said, what do you mean safe? He
35:31
Speaker 2: bashes me because he loves me. I'm very safe.
35:33
Speaker 1: I'm very loved because immedia needs to learn this because
35:36
Speaker 1: I've covered so many of these sorts of stories over
35:39
Speaker 1: the years. And I did ask that question, why didn't
35:42
Speaker 1: you leave?
35:42
Speaker 2: Yep?
35:42
Speaker 1: And I think I was deaf to the answer yep. Almost.
35:46
Speaker 2: I was in a forum. We sent a link once
35:48
Speaker 2: and I taught them that what do you mean why
35:50
Speaker 2: don't we ask why don't you leave? Where do you
35:52
Speaker 2: want me to start? Mate? Or where would you like
35:54
Speaker 2: me to start? You've got to spare three days. I
35:57
Speaker 2: got a son who was made to choose the knife
36:01
Speaker 2: to kill try and kill me by his father, and
36:05
Speaker 2: graduate year six because we had to run to an
36:07
Speaker 2: emergency house from the next partner. So how oldould have
36:12
Speaker 2: you been? Twelve? Like? Where do I start paying two
36:17
Speaker 2: rents for three years? Because you have to keep your
36:20
Speaker 2: house in the commission and pay your emergency housing rent,
36:24
Speaker 2: selling your soul to get an intervention order, and then
36:30
Speaker 2: being still abused and going to court and asking for
36:36
Speaker 2: it to be extended, and the judge telling me, what
36:41
Speaker 2: do you mean? Him coming to your door is a problem?
36:45
Speaker 2: Like if I hadn't have been where I'd been, this
36:49
Speaker 2: is stuck in my head forever. I would have read
36:52
Speaker 2: out of that court and been abused for the rest
36:54
Speaker 2: of my.
36:55
Speaker 1: Life and possibly murdered.
36:57
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely.
36:59
Speaker 1: You know what amazes me the stat that I think
37:01
Speaker 1: it's one Australian woman every nine days gets murdered by
37:05
Speaker 1: the domestic partner. I think it feels like it's.
37:07
Speaker 2: More it's one at five at the minute. We have.
37:09
Speaker 2: We had five and seven days a couple of weeks ago,
37:12
Speaker 2: last week in Australia.
37:14
Speaker 1: What is happening with our young men or men generally.
37:17
Speaker 2: I think it's it's almost becoming like a war that's
37:22
Speaker 2: almost men against women. Like when men are like that,
37:27
Speaker 2: they think that all women are the same, and like,
37:31
Speaker 2: I'm living proof. I could be a man hater, you know,
37:36
Speaker 2: I could want to kill them, and I don't. I
37:39
Speaker 2: have had five men in my life that have got
37:43
Speaker 2: me here today, including you, including Shane, including my dad,
37:48
Speaker 2: including that psychiatrist and then a psychologist that taught me
37:53
Speaker 2: this isn't the way. So I think it's choices. I
37:58
Speaker 2: think it's they have to be taught a lot longer.
38:01
Speaker 2: I get on tram with young teenage boys and I think,
38:05
Speaker 2: oh my god, we have got so long to go.
38:09
Speaker 2: The law needs to be changed. One domestic violence. You
38:13
Speaker 2: get locked up, you know, you get locked up. The
38:16
Speaker 2: prisons are getting full, but the cemeteries are overflowing with
38:21
Speaker 2: dead women, the thing that keep this world going. What
38:25
Speaker 2: the fuck would you do without us? Why keep killing us?
38:29
Speaker 1: Kelly Carterbell, you are my superhero. You've kept it all together,
38:32
Speaker 1: You've made yourself a new future. You're still full of love,
38:36
Speaker 1: and I'm so pleased to be a part of your
38:37
Speaker 1: journey and to let you tell your truth to other
38:41
Speaker 1: women and families who are listening. Because it is a
38:44
Speaker 1: war and we have to win this one. And I
38:47
Speaker 1: really urge people out there report it, report to get
38:51
Speaker 1: the police involved. And if you're not getting the right
38:53
Speaker 1: service over the counter, ask for the sergeant. If the
38:56
Speaker 1: sergeant doesn't do what it's supposed to, get the senior
38:58
Speaker 1: sergeant and the inspector, and do not stop. There's somebody
39:00
Speaker 1: there in your station or in your district who will
39:03
Speaker 1: do the business for you. And this is the only
39:05
Speaker 1: way we're going to beat this.
39:06
Speaker 2: That's it.
39:07
Speaker 1: Yeah.
39:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, And a lot of laws have to change, Adam,
39:11
Speaker 2: A lot of laws have to change. The interventre orders
39:14
Speaker 2: are just I know someone that's broke one hundred times
39:17
Speaker 2: and they do high fives about it to each other.
39:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we've got to remand more people, yes,
39:23
Speaker 1: and make people safe and remember the victims here, rather
39:25
Speaker 1: than just giving people their rights as they accused. I mean,
39:29
Speaker 1: let them go to court and prove their innocence then
39:31
Speaker 1: they can walk. In my opinion, you know, it always
39:33
Speaker 1: reminds me of my old mate Brian Francis Murphy Copper
39:36
Speaker 1: in South Melbourne from the fifties through the eighties. He'd
39:39
Speaker 1: see these men in court after bashing their wives and
39:42
Speaker 1: they'd all be clean, in a nice suit and so forth,
39:45
Speaker 1: but it wouldn't melt in their mouth, and he would
39:48
Speaker 1: see them get off and he'd say that I'm going
39:49
Speaker 1: to meet you around the corner and give them an
39:51
Speaker 1: absolute hiding. You know, we can't do that anymore. But
39:54
Speaker 1: society is just jack of all this and your story
39:57
Speaker 1: is one of so many. So we want to share
40:00
Speaker 1: more of this on real crime. So Kelly Carter Bill,
40:02
Speaker 1: thank you so much once again.
40:04
Speaker 2: Welcome. I just want to say, Adam, that's just a snippet.
40:07
Speaker 1: It is just a snippet. There's a lot more to come.
40:15
Speaker 1: That was Kelly Catabell and really, it's up to everybody
40:18
Speaker 1: to address this problem. But you know, make those reports,
40:22
Speaker 1: seek out the helplines one eight hundred. Respect is who
40:25
Speaker 1: you should be talking to, and you should also get
40:27
Speaker 1: onto crime stoppers, call your local police and you can
40:30
Speaker 1: also share your stories with us. Adam Shanned, writer at
40:33
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. It's been a pleasure talking to you
40:36
Speaker 1: with the Kelly. This has been a real crime with
40:39
Speaker 1: Adam Shan Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to this
40:49
Speaker 1: episode and supporting this story. Independent storytelling that shapes the
40:54
Speaker 1: world is what pod shape really cares about. Right now,
40:56
Speaker 1: There's thousands of people listening to this show and our
40:59
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41:02
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41:06
Speaker 1: thought about advertising your business in a podcast, there's a
41:09
Speaker 1: link to reach out in the show notes, or head
41:11
Speaker 1: to podshape dot com to book a free call.