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The Emotional Life of a Church · The Church Renewal Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Matt.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Jeremy.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Every congregation has an emotional climate that's shaped by grief, fear, shame, anxiety, which profoundly impacts how it responds to change, conflict, and growth.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, Jeremy and Matt unpack how to read and respond to a church's emotional life, why leaders must engage with both process and content, and how gospel-centered leadership provides the resilience needed for transformation.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so Matt, today we're going to talk about the emotional life of the church.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: And as we were praying, getting ready to record here, the passage that came to mind, and I don't have the reference off the top of my head, but the passage where Paul prays for the church, that you might grow up in every way, yeah, to a spiritually mature, which goes along with the idea of growing up into Christ who is our head.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: This is Ephesians, yep.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: So we're talking about the emotional life of the church, and there's a lot that will get packed into this episode.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: We're hopefully not going to go as long as we went in the last episode.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: But you were listener in multiple parts because we talked too long.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Which is which is not abnormal.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's start here.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Would you distinguish for us what you mean or what we are talking about when we talk about the emotional life of our church and how that's different from our theology?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: So two churches that have gone through very different experiences that believe the same thing are going to have a different emotional process that's going on in the life of the church.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I look I do most of our work in the PCA.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: So two smaller PCA congregations where a pastor left because he had an affair with a woman from his gym, their emotional process is going to be very different.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: Their emotional life is going to be very different than the pastor who left because uh he'd been there for 30 years and uh he retired out and went to live close to his kids and grandkids.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: So those churches believe the same things, they're the same size, but their emotional process is quite a bit different.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: If you're trying to think of what this looks like uh using sort of scriptural metaphors, think about sheep in a sheepfold, right?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: There's a group of sheep and they have a certain emotional dynamic among them.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: And if they've been abandoned by the shepherd, then they're gonna be jittery.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: They're gonna be anxious, there's gonna be some snipping around because of the anxiety that's that's there among them.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: So recognizing the emotional process that a congregation's going through becomes exceedingly important.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: We have covered this to some extent in previous episodes.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: We did a whole episode in the last season.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: If you look at uh season three and episode 24, uh, we talk about uh grace analysis.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we also you can look at the three-part interview that we did with Ken Quick that was in season three and a half, where you know, this is starting in episode 31 of season three, uh, what we call three and a half.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: And you could think about the grace analysis just as a reminder, if you have forgotten it, that we uh use with transitional pastors.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: So this is a Ken Pretty tool.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: So this is an acronym, um, Grace.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, grief, what has been lost that is causing grief, reconciliation, what needs to be reconciled or restored, alarm, what needs immediate attention, uh, celebration.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: What about our history today does a cause for celebration and excitement?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: What lies ahead that is exciting?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so being conscious of the emotional life, the emotional state of a congregation is critical.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: Many times when I start work with a congregation, I'll ask the leaders, what's the morale of the congregation?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: What's the morale of the staff?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: What's the morale of the eldership?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'm trying to get a temperature pulse on the emotional state of the congregation so that we can minister to it wisely.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: So the emotional life of the church, then the emotional life of the congregation is not something that the leaders alone are able to see or even responsible to track.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: But any person who's reached a level of maturity as an adult, in the same way that we walk in and read a room, where we should be able to walk in and say, hey, you know, things are I I can pick up what's going on here, the dynamic within this group, without necessarily knowing all the history, because I can see where things are emotionally reactive.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: So let's uh describe that as their reactive, because I think that's important.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um so when something is disproportionate, that's the easiest place to see that somebody's reactive, right?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: So you say something in a sermon that is fairly innocuous, and someone comes up to you afterwards and they have a whole ear full for you.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's a description of reactive.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: You're in a meeting and you know there's a very small slight or overstatement, or somebody talks over a little and somebody blows up.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's reactive.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: So the easiest way to describe reactive is when something is disproportionate and that tells you that something else is going on.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: We see this in congregations, well, not commonly, but some of the time when a congregation's gone through a church health assessment, the first phase of our three-phase church transition process, sometimes we'll get to the the end of that or partway through that, and we'll look at the leadership and go, the sheep are unsettled.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: They're they're not gonna let you lead them until you settle the sheep.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes that settling of the sheep is just stopping to acknowledge the grief.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: We worked with a congregation where uh the pastor sadly did have an affair.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: And um yeah, I went to go work with that congregation and I realized as I thought about you know the way to interact with people, um, I'm typically a hugger.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, you know what?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: I bet this is a time when I probably should not initiate any hugs.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that's trying to be conscious of the emotional state they had lost the trust of an ordained leader.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so, how do you help them rebuild trust in God's ordained leader?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna throw out a couple concepts here that we haven't covered yet, but that are are, I think, sure crucial to understand at this point.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: First one, and we'll see how reactive our audience is, but complementarity.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not complementarianism, although fan there, but complementarity.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: And the idea of complementarity in family systems theory is that it it essentially every action has an equal opposite reaction.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: So if I move towards you, you're either going to move back to make room for me, or you're gonna move forward to push me back out.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: And in the uh the way that I think both Friedman and some of the others that have written in this area, what when they talk about complementarity, they're talking about a functional position.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, what what is the role that I'm playing right now?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: And they'll they'll break this down in some of the literature into pursuer or withdraw.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so as as I'm thinking through this and I'm thinking about how are things reactive, I'm looking and saying, where are people pushing in in a way that seems inappropriate?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: Where are people pulling back in a way that's inappropriate?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: Where are people not pulling back?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Where are they not pushing in in a way that seems like they should be?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, grieving, not grieving when they should be grieving, ignore.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Which leads to another concept here, uh, which you've already talked about, where you can have on the one hand fusion, or you can have cutoff.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Classical Friedman phrases right here.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: So remember, fusion is uh used to be described in the 90s as as codependent, two people who can't live without each other in a in a bad, unhelpful way, not an interdependence, but uh they they can't live not um taking care of each other.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then cutoff is I don't need you anymore.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um you're too difficult.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm gonna uh excise you from my life.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Jack Shatama in the podcast actually that dropped today in our time talked about this and he described it um as being non-anxious but non-present.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, right.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: So remember differentiated is that I maintain my own goals and values while staying emotionally connected to you.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah, without uh giving in to surrounding togetherness pressure, right?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um so emotionally connected to you, right?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: A cutoff is I've cut off the emotional connection to you.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_03: I've cut off the emotional connection, I've cut off the relationship, which we have to acknowledge is tempting for people that are difficult.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, yeah.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then we have to ask this question then because this gets to another concept, which I'll I'll mention in just a moment, but it gets to the question here.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: When we're in a situation and we can read the emotional temperature, the emotional process of a congregation, of a group, why is it difficult to you know, once we've identified it, why can't we just you know rebalance, just fix it?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, because you have to, it's cheap, right?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to kind of go around and talk to them and invite them in.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that for pastors thinking about how do we preach and teach in a way that invites people into calmness, into trust in the Lord, into let's walk together.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: How do we lead staff volunteer or paid into that?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: How do we draw them together?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: How do we do that in leadership meetings?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: How do we have good either town halls or congregational meetings where we draw people towards the middle?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: We have a congregation that we're working with right now that is moving towards uh a a replant.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: And they've done a really thoughtful job of leading the congregation towards something that is that's difficult.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's not been anxiety-free, not everybody's gonna go with them.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: I was with them a few weeks ago and did a a session with the the congregation on a Wednesday evening, and it went well, but one very anxious person came up to me afterwards, and I just tried to be a non-anxious presence.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I know the pastors tried to be a non-anxious presence with this individual, but change is hard because change is loss.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and loss puts people into grief, and the way that people react to grief is different.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: So I think when we're trying to we can um analyzing the emotional state of a congregation is step one, then it's how do we wisely lead in order to bring the sheep together that we can go forward with them.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of where I'm asking.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because and what I'm what I want to lay out here is that as you just said, A, it's difficult.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: But just start of the story here, getting this from where it is a broken or dysfunctional to healthy and trusting God is hard.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the natural state.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: But secondly, uh, what we see, what you've seen in practice, what family systems suggest will likely be the case, Friedman said this way an unhealthy or dysfunctional system will excise a well-differentiated leader, will excise the healthy leader in order to maintain the system without change.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: They'll they'll uh they'll choose dysfunction over growth and maturity.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: What does that look like in practicality in in congregations?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I was pondering this a little bit on the drive today, and I think that you see this most commonly in small churches where there's a matriarch or a patriarch or a very, you know, very dominant family, very common observable dynamic that's challenging in small congregations to lead towards change because smaller congregations uh tend to turn over pastors more frequently.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: The people in the church tend to have much more longevity and more time in the seat than a pastor does.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: And the mindset is, you know, we'll just sort of outlast the pastor, right?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: So those kinds of systems tend to be fairly effective, actually, at outlasting pastors because they just say no.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: And the influence never flows actually to the pastor to lead the congregation.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: It stays with uh the matriarch or the patriarch or the dominant family.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so the pastor actually might be healthy, might be trying to lead them towards great commission directions, but eventually um it comes back.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, very I'm remembering a very painful conversation with a man in the past year or so where he he got excised within about two years of being in the congregation simply for trying to lead them towards health and renewal and revitalization.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's super painful because you're the disruptive force.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Remember, the differentiated person is uh disruptive, particularly if they start differentiating middle.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: They come in differentiated, uh, they've got a little bit better chance, right?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: But if you differentiate in the middle, like I did in my congregation, you end up being something very disruptive because people are messing up the system, man.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you used to be like this, uh huh, and we knew how to work with you.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we knew how to manipulate you before, but now you're not able to be manipulated in the same way that you were before, and now you've thrown the whole thing into chaos.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: And even if you even if you withdraw the manipulation, because some might hear that and say, Okay, you're judging whatever, you can just say, I knew what to expect from you.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: And now I don't.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel insecure, I feel unstable.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know how to respond.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't know how to work with you now because you've changed the game in the middle, in a sense.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: So in in the most benign sense, it's not active overt sabotage.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, hey, that's a great idea.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yeah, you should do that.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yeah.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: I support that.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Could you help with that?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: I you know, I'm a little bit busy, but run with that.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And two years later, nothing's happened except the pastor's lost more hair or his hair's gotten grayer.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's people who are frustrated.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: You can look at whatever metrics they're measuring and they're not moving in the direction that we want to, so we're not seeing success, but there's still a very happy smile from everybody and saying, No, you're doing a great job, just keep on going.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to support you.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: But you keep on doing.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then you get all the way to the extreme case where it's the person's actually ousted, yeah.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, either for cause or for supposed cause for or they self-oust.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: I do that.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: I I self-ousted in my first congregation.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I also had unrecognized idolatry, which didn't wasn't helpful.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: I say that I I only lasted six years in it, and the primary reason for that was the immaturity of the pastor, which is true to a great degree.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the problems in the congregation flowed from me.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: Frustrations that I had about myself and recognized idols that I needed to repent of.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but it definitely is the case that I think that some people are excised and some people self-excise because they get frustrated and they'd rather go someplace where people uh will respond to their leadership.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: So people of good faith, people who believe the same doctrine, people who are following the same Jesus, people who are seeking to hear the same Holy Spirit, something happens, which we're calling emotional dynamic, emotional life, emotional baggage.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot there that can be unpacked.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: But once you see it, what we're saying here is the role of the leader is to intentionally look to Jesus to say, Lord, how are you calling me to address the gaps in this congregation's emotional development?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that they can better hear you and work together at you know, in a peaceful way, in a restful way, hearing your voice and following you in courage.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's to look over the sheepfold, just to keep the scriptural analogy, look over the sheepfold and understand not just what is the physical health of the sheep, which of course is incredibly important, but to look at how are they feeling?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: Can how can they come together to go out into green pastures, which for a congregation is that we go out into the harvest field together because that's what we're called to.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: Local congregations are missionary units to their community.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so, as leaders, our goal is to get them feeling well enough in the gospel, secure enough in Jesus, that they go tell the good news to people.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's not more it's not more difficult than that, right?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's that's exactly what we're trying to do.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: But recognizing what's preventing that, what's blocking that.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: Be listeners to our podcast will know this is one of my favorite sort of analogies, but what blocks this the gospel is supposed to go, right?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: Paul says to the Colossians, right, that the gospel's been growing and increasing since it came among you.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: This that all the analogies that Jesus has uh of the kingdom and of the seed of the gospel is it's growing, it's getting bigger.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: It starts as small as a mustard seed, grows into the biggest tree in the in the field, right?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so the gospel is supposed to go.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's supposed to go in people to lead them.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: We talked about the Ephesians passage earlier for um, you know, it's supposed to lead them into maturity, which leads them out to love people and bring the gospel to them.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: So we're looking with compassion on the sheep, and we're saying, what's their emotional state, and what is the action that I have as a leader to help them get into a good emotional state that they can go out into green pastures, that people can go out into the harvest field.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: So let's move towards application then.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: How does a pastor or a leadership team do this on the Sunday morning?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: How do they do this when they're meeting together as a leadership?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: How do they do it not on Sunday morning, but still with the body life?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: And there's two ways uh two sort of scenarios I'm thinking about.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: One is there's just general emotional reactivity, and on the other hand, there's actual act, you know, active sabotage that's going on, trying to resist good needed change.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I think on Sunday morning, one of the things I went to a church yesterday and was preached there.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I think one of the things that was really good about that church was they just acknowledged the difficulty of living in a broken world very freely.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: In the way the service was led, in the songs that were chosen, you were allowed to struggle.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that's amazing.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: Church that I went to in West Seattle, I thought made tremendous use of quiet in the service, of pauses that felt maybe a little bit too long.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: Not because I think that they were, but because I think that people are uncomfortable with even a minute of silence in our culture.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: In a minute I can't catch up to how many sins I need to confess.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um even given the silent time of confession.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: I I haven't had enough time yet.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: But when you do a counted minute, like I used to do leading worship in our church in West Seattle, it feels long to people until they get used to it.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: And they can be okay with quiet, they can be okay with their thoughts and with themselves and with the Lord.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think there's some ways on Sunday morning that we can we can make space.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: We can preach out of 2 Corinthians 5, which is uh one of the most emotional books.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's Paul's emotional life on display.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: And we can help people get comfortable with you can be downcast but not abandoned.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so when we understand what the emotional state is for people, I think that we can help them not only with the kind of teaching that we do from the scriptures on Sunday, but even the way that we lead the service and what our demeanor is and what what we what we allow ourselves.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: I I can remember leading in the church in West Seattle and we were in a particularly poignant moment, and um we just as a as a group of elders recognized people are gonna react emotionally.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: We need to just be with them as they react emotionally and not not take it personally, not think that they're doubting our wisdom or our leadership.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: That not family systems talk about the difference between content and process, just paying attention to emotional process, um, not content.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a few things I think about Sunday morning.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: In leadership meetings, I think it's giving space just to say uh two things.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh one is uh how are you really doing and that that's as important as what's on the agenda to discuss.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that question I I think implies also the question do you do you actually feel free enough to answer this question here with us?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: If we yeah, Amy Edmondson, have we made this a place that has psychological safety?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like where you can actually say I'm I'm really struggling.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I think in leadership meetings, talking with the freedom to talk about how you're really doing, the freedom to talk about us.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, this is something our listeners would be familiar with.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think if we listen to through in the seasons, is I think it's incredibly important for groups to be able to talk about their group dynamic, not just the things that are on the agenda, right, but how are we doing with each other and what could we do to make it better among us?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's a couple of things.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think also just trusting your staff, whether they're paid or volunteer, to gather intel, that they represent constituencies to the leadership group to try and you know petition for certain changes or whatever, but that your uh staff, whether they're paid or volunteer, your ministry leaders, they have intel that you need uh in order to lead well and to be to be thoughtful.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: So not you know there's a there's there's a sharing, there's a dialogue that's not just on the horizontal, but it goes down and says, Hey, I'm I trust you with this, you're a trusted partner.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna share information that I might not share outside of here.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: But you're a part of this and I need your voice in this.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Not as a decision maker, but as a partner but as a partner in the cloud so that we know how to lead well.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: So, anyways, that's a that's a few ways, I think, both congregational and leadership wise.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: Was there another area that you asked?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I'm asking I'm asking specifically about the sabotage and the resistance button.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh, okay.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm also uh as you're talking, I'm thinking about this.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'll hold that.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, sabbath.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: How do we deal with yeah?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I think in both cases of both sabotage and resistance, the temptation is to avoid.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: Darn tootin'.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: The temptation is to just work past, work through, work around.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh when I think what you've got is you know, imagine it is a sheep that's skittish.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: That you're trying to you're trying to open the gate and lead the sheep out, and the sheep's biting your heels.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: Sabotage.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um you're saying, you know, you whistled for the sheep to let's all come together and go out to green pastures, and it's a sheep uh ignoring you, looking over the fence.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: Resistance.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: So what do you what do you do with the sheep that's you know biting at the back of your or your heels or is up against a fence and not willing to come into the group and go forward, sabotage resistance.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think you move towards them.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: I I think that shepherds move towards sheep.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh and that may seem really simplistic, but it's actually it's very hard.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's very hard to take a sheep aside and say, You it seems like you're you're you're anxious about this.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: I want to understand.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, again, uh my mother was a professional mediator in the county that we grew up in in upstate New York, and you taught me years ago that the most powerful question that one human can ask another, assuming it's an honest question, is help me understand.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: Wanna understand?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: I can't understand on my own, so I need you to help me.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: I care about you, but you're the only source that can help me understand.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: So help me understand.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: So recognize that um both sabotage and resistance are emotional responses, and it's super important.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: This is the process content thing in family systems, it's super important to see that it's process, not content.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Why why is it process not content?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is it is it because the content doesn't matter, or is it something No?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: I think that if we've gone through community spiritual discernment, right, and we believe that the content of the way that we're leading is scriptural, it's wise, it's it's what we sense the Lord has for us as we seek maturity in Christ and to fulfill the great commission in our area.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: There's not something that's immoral about it or unwise, right?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: So we've done all those checks, but then we still have a sheep that is trying to sabotage that.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think we need to go to them and just and and try and understand.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: We're tempted to work on the content level, especially in more theological contexts, where we're tempted to go and just kind of say, well, what scripture supports your position?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's to look at content.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: But many, many times people's concern is not with content, it's with wrestling with their own emotions about the situation that they find themselves in.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I think we've I think we've done this on the podcast.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: Sort of my model of emotions, there's the thing, there's my emotions about the thing, and then there's my reactions to my emotions about the thing.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we're trying to lead in a certain direction that evokes emotions in people, and they have reactions to their emotions.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: Their reactions to their emotions are the sabotage and resistance.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: And if we can come to them, and if we come to them with content, right, we come with that to them with the thing, which is what we're tempted to do, we're missing it.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because they actually may agree with the content.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's just difficult for them.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so if we come with compassion and we say, Hey, what this way that we're leading, it seems to have evoked some emotions in you.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: Can we talk about those?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: And people may or may not want to because they may not like to.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's so important to recognize that when someone's having a reaction, they're not having a reaction to the thing that you just put in front of them.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: The thing that you just put in front of them is in fact a catalyst.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: They're having a reaction to something else within them.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: And as the as the wise shepherd, you're looking and you're saying, okay, I see the reactivity here.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Is this based on a sin that you're trying to hide?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Or is this based on a fear?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Or an insecurity, cure, concern.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: Many times I we find when coaching pastors and they're saying, I don't understand why this person's resisting this.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, some of the time, um, for Americans in particular, who are commonly afflicted with a hidden idol of comfort, right?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's the default thing that they seek and you know work towards and want.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that many times good, thoughtful spiritual leadership is leading people to take up their cross and follow Jesus.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that does not describe comfort.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: No, it doesn't.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so trying to get that out of people, I don't like this decision that you've made because it will call me to a deeper level of sacrifice.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: It will call me to have to stop doing some things and start doing other things.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I that's actually it's not that what I think you're doing is unbiblical or unwise.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's that I don't like the effect that it's gonna have on my life if I follow you this way.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna sabotage you going that way.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna resist going that way with you because well, I'll just say it bluntly, because of what it's cost me.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: What's every company out there looking to minimize?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Trying to minimize their exposure.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because exposure is vulnerability.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: Adam and Eve were naked and they were unashamed.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then sin comes in and they're they're still naked, but now they feel that exposure.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so we try to hide that.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: And the place that God has called us to is naked and unashamed.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: Identity and acceptance.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: Staggering because that's so um, yeah.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, insurance companies, uh, insurance agents are gonna have to do something new in the new heavens and new earth because there won't be any exposure, right?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, everything will be exposed and nobody will care.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: So it I think that the wise leader, whether he's looking at himself and evaluating his own heart, he's looking at the team that he leads, at the ministry leaders in the congregation, at the sheepfold itself, is trying to see what is going on in the emotional system of the congregation.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: How do we steward that?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: Eventually, maybe we'll do a podcast about how good communication for Leadership can help with that and what that can look like, and something that uh perhaps Flores will get into in the future because uh what I try and teach uh leaderships and uh even pastor search committees, because they have this time when they can communicate in a very anxious time for a congregation, they are the stewards of the emotional system of the congregation, and many times church leadership is not thinking about that, that's not the way they're thinking about their role.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna summarize the things that I've heard you say here.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and you tell me if I'm if I'm tracking with you.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: The leadership's role, uh, as you just said, understanding and shepherding the emotional life of the church, being differentiated from the outcome.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not responsible to make sure you respond the right way.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not even responsible to make sure that you feel differently about this.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm responsible to see where you are and then understand that you're human and I'm human, which isn't to say we overlook sin.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: It is to say you're going to have a need, you're gonna have a response and a reaction.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: My job is not to police that.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: I had a conversation with with a friend and I said, Look, I've got to tell you something.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's you're not gonna like it.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna have a strong reaction.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm telling you this now so that I can also tell you this.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever you respond with, I'm telling you, it's okay with me.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: If you I'm gonna give you the space to respond the way that you need to swear at me.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, if you need to walk away, right, please know we have to swear.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: We allow a range of responses.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: That is yes, yeah.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna recognize you're human and this is gonna be ugly.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, but it's not about the content, it's about the process.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: How do I walk through it?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then I respond to this with a grace-oriented, a gospel-oriented truth telling that points and leads to Christ, where I say, Hey, if there's sin, I will call it out.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm not going to come in as a sin police and stand up front on a Sunday morning or stand sit in the Wednesday leadership meeting and start having a gripe session about this.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna pursue you.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna say, hey, this doesn't line up.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: I I see this, I see the reactivity, I see how it's coming out, I see the resistance.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Help me understand this.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna walk towards you though.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: Walk towards you, but I'm also going to call it sin, and I'm okay if that offends you.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's because I love you.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: Because not all not all people struggling with decisions that we've made have been sin.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: They they they may it may be sin.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: We may need to gently talk to them, right?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, restore gently, right?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Galatians 6.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: But it um it's it's what it's either going to be sin or it's gonna be pain.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Either way, the gospel is the answer.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, and walking towards people is the answer, always walking towards people.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I apply the gospel, speaking it with truth, in love, pointing to Jesus, yep, not being worried about the fact that you're uncomfortable and you're not doing it in my time frame.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yes, and I think that that's important because I think that um, you know, early on in our in our podcasting, and I think that this holds, I talked about um in the early seasons, season one and two about revitalization, that revitalization is more than, but not less than a series of stage conflicts.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because the congregation needs to be different.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: What are all the letters in the New Testament?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: They're they're all stage conflicts, right?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's dysfunction and the Lord's confronting it.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're doing a series of stage conflicts, whether it's in transition or revitalization, you're gonna evoke emotions in people and you're gonna have to get better.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: Crucial conversations is critical.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: We can throw it in the show notes for learning how to do this well with people.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: But the main point for this podcast is recognize that there's the sheep are in an emotional process.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: What they need for you to do is love them and come alongside of them.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't mean you stop bleeding, it just means that you lead um compassionately.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: And when when you experience that reaction, my hope is that you feel empowered through the information that we're talking through here to be able to stay engaged in a non-anxious way to continue pursuing, yep, even after your heel's been bit or your hands have been bet or you've been kicked.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, absolutely.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's not easy.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: Nope.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: At all.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, like yes, I just described it, I could describe it simply, but it is not easy.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: It takes a lot of maturing yourself as a leader to not respond to reactivity with reactivity.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: It takes tremendous exposure.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because regardless of how well I do this, it can still fail.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Which means I'm gonna stand before God and I have no control over how this goes.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: I've got to be walking with him, trusting him, and saying, Hey, I I I believe I'm doing what you called me to do.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: I believe I'm saying what you called me to say.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm not, show me, and I've got to leave this in your hands.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: So please do something with it.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a that's probably one of the prayers I pray most often is that in part, you please do this because I I can't.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's that recognition from John 15 that apart from me, you can do nothing.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: And being and and as a leader, being comfortable with that.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think Jesus also in that same passage had something to say about abiding in the vine and being filled with the spirit and things like that.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe it's all connected.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Who knows?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's all connected.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: All right, man.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, thank you for this conversation.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, any questions that people have, please uh you know reach out to us.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: We'd love to answer more questions about this.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: We'll talk to you next time.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them.
• 35:37
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• 35:41
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• 35:44
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