Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 452: The Filmmaker Who Refused to Tap Out: The Making of Heel Kick! with Danny Mac

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BPS 452: The Filmmaker Who Refused to Tap Out: The Making of Heel Kick! with Danny Mac · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four fifty two.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Your dream doesn't have an expiration date, Take a deep
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  Speaker 2: breath and try again. Kat You Whitten broadcasting from a dark, windowless.
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  Speaker 1: Room in Hollywood when we really should be working on
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  Speaker 1: that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you
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  Speaker 1: the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how
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  Speaker 1: to make your screenplay bulletproof.
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  Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
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  Speaker 3: I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.
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  Speaker 4: Now.
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• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: I have a Canadian filmmaker, actor and producer. He produced
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: a film and actually started as well and directed it
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: that it's very close to what I talk about a
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: lot on here, and you know it's pro wrestling in
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: one way or another. I know I don't talk a
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: lot about it pro wrestlings. I don't have to watched
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: it in years, but when I was growing up, I
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: watched it a ton, probably way too much. So we
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: just had Nick Bondo on, who was a professional wrestler
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: turned filmmaker. We've had a few other filmmaking projects here
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: and there that involved pro wrestling, but this one is
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: a unique one onto itself because it it really involves
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: backyard wrestling. And I love the tagline for the film too.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: It's unprofessional wrestling is, which is a genius tagline. So
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: we're gonna talk all about this new film, Heel Kick,
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: which is actually going through a little tour right now
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: and then it'll be out later this year. We're also
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: gonna talk about how my next guest actually made money
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: with this first film, Believe it or Not, which is
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: just crazy to think of, right making money with your
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: first film. We're gonna talk about all that stuff, film school, networking,
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: finding contacts, and we go with a lot of really
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: cool producing stuff in this too, and we talked about
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: pre wrestling with guest Danny Mack.
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: I did not go to film school, and it is
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: something that I knew I wanted to do when I
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: was growing up, but it just seemed too insurmountable and
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: too difficult. You're talking to me now from Edmonton, Alberta,
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: where I grew up. I'm just back here for my
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: grandma's one hundredth birthday and then i'll be back to
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: Vancouver tonight. But growing up here where there's essentially no
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: film scene, and it does have a fairly decent theater community,
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: but really film and television, there's not nothing, and there's
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: no one who's doing it, so I, you know, I
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: didn't have any inspirations surrounding me, and the prices for
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: film school were really high. And it's something that my
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: mom and I were looking at when I was fifteen
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: or sixteen, because clearly I had an interest in it
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: and I needed some sort of creative outlet because I was,
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: you know, kind of just being a little brat of
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: a kid. But it seemed too expensive and yeah, like
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: I said, there was just nothing around me to indicate
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: that it was something that I could pull off. So
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: so I kind of like let it. I wouldn't want
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: to say let the dream die. But you know, I
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: went to university and I still hadn't picked a major
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: or a minor after like two or three years, and
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: I was taking a lot of studies, you know, acting
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  Speaker 4: because I liked it. So I was training here and there.
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  Speaker 4: But I finally realized, you know, I could probably just
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: make a movie myself, and so began the journey of
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: me producing my own projects.
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  Speaker 3: So when you actually wanted to make your own movie, like,
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: what were some of the first things that you did
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: to sort of take those steps to actually make that movie.
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  Speaker 4: Well, we myself and my one of the co stars
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: in Heelkick and and my fellow producer Cooper b Bo.
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: We would look at scripts to get an idea of
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: how to format them and how they were written. And
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: then we, you know, just started to have writing sessions
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: together and anyone who would want to work on something creative,
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: we would. So we were writing sketches for the Fringe
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: Film Play Theater festival that we have here in Edmonton,
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: and and anyone who wanted to do something, you know
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: and throw it up on you were contributing. But he
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: and I were really interested in writing feature films. And
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: then because you know, we're we're actors and we're writers,
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: but we don't really know anything about the technical aspect
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: of filmmaking. We would seek out people who were in
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: film school and ask them if they would want to
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  Speaker 4: come help us shoot something. And since we were something
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: the only people making an independent feature film in the city,
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: we got a lot of attention right away, and before
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: we knew it, we had a film crew on board
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  Speaker 4: and they were helping us shoot our first feature film.
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  Speaker 4: And this was back in twenty eleven.
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  Speaker 3: So when you were actually you got all that attention,
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: have you know, has things changed then? So, like I mean,
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like, everybody you know who
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: has an iPhone now is a filmmaker. So have you
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: noticed have things actually changed where it's become passe or
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: maybe it's become the point where it's like in La
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: where it's a pain in the ass. I mean, have
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: you noticed any difference.
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: Just in regards to like the amount of people who
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: are making film?
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  Speaker 3: You mean, yeah, exactly, and you're in your area.
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  Speaker 4: Well, I mean yes and no, because Vancouver is a
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: pretty big film city. A lot of stuff is filmed there.
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: It's a big service city, so a lot of big
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: productions come through there, and then you know, Vancouver actors
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: will help round out and fill out some of the
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: roles that are needed in the crew gets a lot
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: of work down there there as well. But yeah, it's
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  Speaker 4: funny how you say everyone with an iPhone can be
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: a filmmaker, And that's true, and I think it's so
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: much easier for people to make films these days. But
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: the amount of drive and determination that it takes to
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: pull something like that off that doesn't change. It's still
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: backbreaking and it's still a serious commitment of if not money,
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: seriously time. So while it's easier than ever. I don't
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: think more people than ever are actually doing it, because
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean, it's tough to take that plunge,
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: and you know, first of all, it's tough to sit
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: down and write a film. It's tough to assemble a
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: crew and a cast, and it's tough to shoot the
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: thing and then edit it and then so you know,
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: as much as we have the resources available to us,
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: I actually don't see people taking advantage of it that
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: much because I think people do understand how much work
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: it is and that's kind of a scary, like it's
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: a turnoff for people.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true. And you know when I say everyone
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: who thinks who has an iPhone is you know, considers
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: themselves a filmmaker, it's just because you know, it's kind
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: of like that idea, you know. I mean, I've done
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: commercial work too, where commercial videography work, and you know,
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  Speaker 3: the guy's like, hey, my son and their daughter's got
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: an iPhone, why should I hire you? Or you know,
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: people who want to start throwing vlog on YouTube or
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: but yeah, I know it's dackly what you're saying. You know,
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  Speaker 3: it does still take all that time and planning an effort,
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: which is why most movies don't get made right. They're
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: you know, nobody is normal who actually makes a film?
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  Speaker 3: Normal is sitting on your calus talking about making a movie, right, Danny.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, everyone on earth has done that. I got a
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: great idea for a movie or a book, or a
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: TV show or whatever. Everyone has said that at one
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: point in their life. It only takes truly insane people
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: to you know, think that that's something they should actually
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: try to do for a living.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: You know, it was funny one time. I actually came
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: home from a shoot one day and I was so tired.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: I just wanted to shower. Another shower I already taken
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: on that day, but you know, it was that long
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  Speaker 3: ass day, and I sort of plopped down the couch
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: and a friend of mine, you know, came over and
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: he was like, oh, you know, what were you doing today?
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: And Bob blind he goes, oh, man, I got this
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: idea for a movie. And I'm like, I don't want
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: to ever talk about movies again. I said, I am
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: so tired right now, like I'm just aching all over.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: I was sunburned. I was like, I don't care, I don't.
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that eventually happens, like people say, you know,
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: what would be a great idea, and you're like, you
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: know what I mean, bringing my own idea. It's a life.
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: It's stressing me out, So please keep gradas to yourself
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: at this point because I can't help you. I'm losing
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: my mind working on my own projects. It's sad. It's
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: sad to say, but yeah, I definitely hear you.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's that whole idea of like a friend.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: It's always like, hey, you know, we're a friend from
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: high school. Do you get that? By the way, I don't.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: I don't have to talk about that a lot. But
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: I have friends from high school who constantly send me
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: messages about some script or or or an idea that
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: they are. One wanted to shoot a zombie film in
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: the woods and he wanted my advice, and I'm like,
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: you've never talked to me ever unless you need something,
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: So I'm like, why the hell would I help you?
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: It's just it's just so it's so like phony, you know.
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: I get a lot of that, but some people reach
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: out and I don't think it's that they necessarily like
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: want something from me, But at the same time, they
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: are like, I got a great idea for a thing.
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: All you would have to do is write it and
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: produce it and shot shoot it and get the money together.
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: Like I'm like, are you insane? Like there's absolutely And
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: you know, I don't have a shortage of ideas myself.
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: You know, I'm trying to figure out what i want
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: to do next and what I'm going to put out there.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: So we'll be right back after a word from our
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: sponsor and now back to the show.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: Someone with zero experience coming of saying like I got
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: a great idea and you haven't talked to them in
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: a long time. Yeah, it can be frustrating. God and
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: bless them, though, God and bless them.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's that whole idea of Look, you know,
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: what's so complicated about this? You have all the connections,
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: and I'd sit there, I'd go, guys, it just doesn't
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: work like that. And I get a lot of See,
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: I'm glad that you understand what I'm talking about, you know,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: And you get that a lot because I've had girls
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: too that I went to high school with who want
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: to be quote unquote actresses and they don't really want
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: to be actresses. You know, they want to show up
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: to set or wherever and take pictures of themselves so
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: people can tell them how beautiful they are.
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's really and you know, there's nothing glamorous about
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: like the job of an actor. Really, if you are
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: an actor, there's there's so many moments where you're like,
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: what the hell, this is not what I thought it
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: would be. But you have to love it, and I do.
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: But yeah, when I really explain to people, like what
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: my day like when I'm on set, either for a
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: commercial or a TV show or something, it's Yeah, it's
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: really a kick in the pants, I think.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: So, you know when we started in twenty eleven, when
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: you started making your own film, your first film, you know, yeah,
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: and you put everything together, you know, did you have
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: any of this culture shock that we're talking about right
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: now where you were like, oh my god, what the
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: hell did I get myself into?
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah? Absolutely, And pardon me, I got the date wrong.
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: It was back in two thousand and nine. We started
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: writing it, and we shot it in two thousand and ten,
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: and yeah, holy crap, I could not believe how long
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: the days were, how long it took to get shot
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: set up, you know, I just you don't understand, and
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: especially I'd never been to film school, so that was
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: my film school. And I would have quit because it
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: was just so intense and there was so much work.
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: But Cooper and I put our life savings into the
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: movie and we completely funded it ourselves. So we kept
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: working our regular jobs Monday to Friday, and then because
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: we couldn't afford to pay anyone, we could only shoot
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: the movie Friday night, all of Saturday, all of Sunday,
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: and then we'd go back to work. We'd only shoot weekends.
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: And like, I was so drained. I could not believe
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: how tired I was, and I was almost so exhausted
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: that quitting would have required more thought and effort than
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: just staying the course. So we ended up finishing it.
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: But yeah, just when I say that, like that first
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: film was my film school, I really believe that, because
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: Trial by Fire is the only way that I've really
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: stuck to things and learned in my life. I've found
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: and yeah, it really prepares you for like what the
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: career is going to be. Like, of course you improve
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: the next time around. We made a ton of mistakes,
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: but you know, learning from them and going forward. There's
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: no better way to do it, I think.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: So what was the biggest obstacle you faced when making
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: that movie? Like, was there one day or one thing
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: that happened where you were like, I think I'm done?
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Hmmm.
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: I mean that I feel like every every day honestly,
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: like somehow and this is crazy. And really the money
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: was our like least, like we were always worried about
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: the money because literally it was just his and my
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: life savings. We both put twenty thousand dollars up to
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: make this forty thousand dollar feature. But there was sort
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: of nothing to worry about because we had the money,
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: Like we didn't have to go knock on any doors
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: for more. So oddly enough, the money wasn't biggest problem.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: But the biggest problem was was that we were producing
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: a film and we'd never done that before. We never
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: made a short. Well we had made a short film before,
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: but like that took that took an afternoon, and like
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: this was just so intense. So yeah, we we were
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: just we were faced with obstacles every day, Like we
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: didn't like transportation and getting everything to our certain locations
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: was rough, and who was going to return all the
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: year and like there was just things we didn't know
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: that were actual things that you had to do on set,
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: and so we had we didn't delegate properly. So it
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: just see like day one's like ninety things that are
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: undone that we need to just assign to people to
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: start doing. And because we were the producers and we
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: couldn't pay anyone, we had to do all those things ourselves.
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: So while money wasn't an issue, if you're not paying anyone,
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: you're not going to get any extra out of anyone.
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: You know, they were just doing it for the experience.
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: So we took on way too much and that was
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: probably why, you know, I can't even pick a specific thing,
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: but really the the umbrella of all the problems is
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: that we just wore way too many hats and we
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: juggled too many things.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: And you see, Danny, I think that happens to a
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: lot of filmmakers. You see, because everything is a little
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: more accessible quote unquote, you know, with whether there be
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: a camera or maybe it be you know, a way
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: to storyboard, or whether it be hey listen, I have
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: an idea or maybe you know what I mean, You
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: kind of build up this confidence to go in there
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: and do it. But I think when you wear so
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: many hats, you kind of it all hits you when
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: you're trying to do two things at once. And I
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: can tell you I remember I was going to doing
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: one of my films, one of my student films, and
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: I remember somebody had backed out who was supposed to
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: be like my location manager slash like upm and everybody
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: instead was calling me now as I'm trying to direct
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: the scene for like directions, questions about stuff. Hey, you
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: know what I mean. And I'm just like, guys, I'm
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: trying to direct a freaking scene here, and I'm trying
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: to talk to the cinematographer and I'm trying to do
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: this and people are coming up and asking me questions.
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: People are coming up because they the people who had
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: the location. There was like other stuff going on, so
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: people were walking in the room going, oh, is there
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: are you guys filming here? We're like, oh, Jesus Christ,
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: shoot me, now what did I do to myself?
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: I got a funny story. Our very first day on set,
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: we actually didn't have the permits to shoot in the
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: park that we were shooting in, and I didn't know this,
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: so someone like a park ranger came up to our
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: director and was like, hey, do you have permits to
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: shoot here? And he was just petrified, and the only
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: thing he could think to say was the name of
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: the person he was supposed to email to get the
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: permits that he never actually did. And let's say that
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: person's name was Alex. So this park ranger comes up
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: to our director our first day on set, is like, hey,
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: did you get the proper permits to be here? And
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: all he says was Alex. And then the park ranger
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: somehow accepted that and was like, okay, well have a
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: good shoot and left us. But we could have been
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: like shut down before we begun, So God bless him
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: for that one. I have no idea how we weaseled
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: our way out of that situation.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: But it's like one of those movie jokes, you know,
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: where the character kind of just like blurts out an
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: answer by accident, like they're own jeopardy, and it's like, yeah,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: that's exactly it, that's the answer.
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: It's yeah. Meanwhile, oh, he's just like breathing heavily and
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: sweating his ass off because we almost lost everything, and.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: You know, and see stuff like that. You know, I
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: have a funny story happened. Didn't have it on one
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: of my sets, but it was. I actually was visited
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: a set one day and this this kind of like
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: park ranger type of guy walks by and he looks
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: over and he just sees all these film cameras and
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: gear and everything else. And immediately I'm like, well, this
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: this guy. I know these guys who are running this
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: film set, who is film it is? I know they
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: don't have permits. And and I look at the park
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: ranger and he's on a bike and he just kind
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: of looks around and just pedaled off and never said
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: a word. And I think, I'm thinking to myself, what
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: made him not do this? Like what made him not
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: want to get involved? And here's here's there's two things
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: that I think that didn't and that made him not
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: want to get involved. As I kind of took a
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: look around. Number one was there was probably like three
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: hundred people there and just because it was a concert scene.
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: And two, there was a guy.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: In an eight foot like monster costume just kind of
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: rampaging around, and I think both of them, he's probably like,
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: I don't even want to get involved, and whatever the
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: hell this.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: Is yeah, he could probably smell like the dreams that
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: he would have cried rushed also if he just followed
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: up on it. I think that was a big part
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: of it too. This park ranger was like, well, what
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: these kids look like They've got enough trouble already as
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: it is, So I'm just gonna bike away from this situation.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: And we're writing in Philadelphia too. We usually crushed streams
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: here in Philadelphia, So.
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: You know that guy was the that that is the
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: city motto, isn't it where dreams go to be crushed?
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: I believe?
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that that Hitchbot thing. It survived Canada and
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: everything else, and then as soon as it came here
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: was done.
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: That's it.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: So Danny, would you if you got done making Love Hate,
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: which was your first film, how did you go about
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: releasing the film or even just marketing the film?
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: That was another sort of I mean, we didn't do
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: too much marketing, but we really uh got lucky on
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: that one because we were able to sell the film
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: to a Canadian the on demand subscription or not subscription base,
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: but transactional video on demand channel called super Channel. And
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: the only thing that we had heard about it was
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: that a guy that we knew apparently hit a short
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: film and he sold it to them and they gave
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: him like fourteen thousand dollars. And we never confirmed this,
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: We never looked into it. We didn't even talk to
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: the guy. We're like, oh, if he can do that,
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: we can do it. So we proceeded to make this
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: film and then their head offices happened to be in
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: Edmonton where we shot Love Hate, and we literally just
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: drove there one day. We google maps where their offices were.
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: Cooper and myself just drove there in my old Honda
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: Accord with a blu ray of our film. We were like, Hey,
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: who can we talk to about buying our movie? They
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: were like, I guess the acquisition's head is here. So
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: we met with her and she passed the film off
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: to her team and we got a call like a
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: few weeks later saying that they would buy the movie
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: off of us, and we ended up breaking even on
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: our first project just from that and a couple of
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: theatrical screenings that we held ourselves.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, that is a hell Mary story.
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: Man.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: You know, we'll be right back after a word from
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: our sponsor. And now back to the show.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: You just you threw it up there. But see, but
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: stories like that or a success, you know, that's what
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: people aim for, you know, it's to do stuff like that, Hey,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: we sold our first movie, you know, or we you know,
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: we did this, or we did that.
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: It's it's funny. A guy I know actually used to
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: work with Orn Patelli, who did Paranormal Activity, and one
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: day I don't know if you've ever seen the first
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: or Paranormal Activity, but one day Oran came in and
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: he said, guys, I just want to say it's been
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: nice working with you. I I actually just want two
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: weeks in And I said, oh, well, you know what,
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: do you have another job? And he said, well, actually
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: I just sold a movie to Steven Spielberg. And they
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: were like yeah, right, like come on, what are you
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: really doing? He goes no. He goes no, like I'm
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: going to be on all these web series or not
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: web series, like like web interviews and stuff like that,
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: and he goes and I want to be all like
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: this channel was just you know, and that's it. Well,
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: like little by little they started like all these interviews
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: started popping up and they were like, oh my god,
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: this is amazing. But I mean it's stuff like that,
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: you know, stories like that that that you know, it
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: sort of keeps that indie film, indie film dream alive.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: You know, we were able to actually, you know, do
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: these things, actually say hey, look we made our money back,
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: or we made least some money, and now we can
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: take that money and make another film exactly.
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: And yeah, when you say it was a hail Mary,
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: it absolutely was because we were you know, we had
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: we were just delusional. We thought that the movie was
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: gonna explode and we'd make so much money that our
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: next film could be like triple the budget and and
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: then it would be smooth sailing. And then you know,
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: we were able to sell it. And so we got
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: national broadcast and we we made like a lot of
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: money off of just three threeatrical screenings that we did,
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: and so we made our money back plus maybe like
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: I don't know, like three grand each. And this was
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: after like three years of work. So like whoopie do right.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: We were like upset. We were like, man, I can't
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: believe we only broke even. And other filmmakers like we
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: didn't realize how tough it was to you know, get
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: a broadcast deal and make your money back within like
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: six months of releasing your film, and all these other
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: filmmakers like, are you insane that you're complaining right now?
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: Like you sold your first film and you made all
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: your money back, Like what is your problem? And now
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: is I've just like been in the industry so much longer.
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: I was like, what a shitty little brat I was
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: being complaining that we didn't like bring in heaps of
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: cash from our little independent film and yeah, I'm just
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: you know, we did everything wrong, but it turned out
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: all right for us in the end. So I'm really
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: proud of our little effort that we put in back then.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: And I'm also glad that you got my football reference too, eause.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, I know you're you're in Canada, and I'm like,
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: wait a minute, and will he understand the idea? Yeah,
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: I'm glad you got that right.
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: Orange football here, there's nine downs before the ball changes hands.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: Well, I've actually been to Canada and I saw a
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Toronto Argonauts game one time.
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: Oh of the Argos, Yeah that's right.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah. So it was just funny though, because
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: I was, you know, the NFL is not really popular
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: outside of outside of the USA, and I'm just like man,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: I always I always got to watch my slang. And
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: even when I'm talking to other filmmakers from America, I
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: got to watch my Philly slang that I'll say something
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: weird and they're like.
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, Dave, you know, no, I'm all over it.
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: I got you.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: But we know, just to go back to about love hate,
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: I mean again, you know, selling your first film, that's huge,
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: and I mean now, I mean because you sold that
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: in like ten, twenty eleven. I mean, what do you
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: think about the marketplace now? You know, even tying in
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: with your new movie, he'll kick about. I mean, what
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: do you think the market it's like? Now? Do you
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: think it's more crowded? Because I've had I've heard a
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: lot of different opinions and perspectives of this. Some people say, yeah,
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: it's more crowded, but there's more avenues. And then and
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: then the other the other sort of option is or
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: the other perspective is the the good movies, no matter what,
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: are always just going to rise to the top.
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, I hope that that's the case, because you know,
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: then that means that people will see good films and
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: that will reward and that we'll you know, teach people
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: to make good projects. I don't know. I think that
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: it's really exciting the time that we'll we're in right now,
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: especially with all the methods of self distribution available. That
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: is really something that gets me excited about continuing down
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: this path as an independent filmmaker and beyond. And while
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: I do think there is a ton of just product
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: out there, like there's so many shows and films, I
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: do believe that the good ones rise to the top,
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: and I think that you have to hold on to
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: that because I don't know what's the alternative thought on
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: that that. You know, like a bad movie with great
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: marketing will be the only thing that really matters one day.
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: And you know, while that may be the case, I'm
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: sure we've all heard a million things about a movie
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: we don't care about. In the independence scene, you have
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: so much more leeway, I believe, and people aren't as
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: tough on films, and you know, while you do have
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: to have a thick skin and everyone is going to
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: have critics, it's kind of a nice community. You know.
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: People are always willing to help each other and talk
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: about their project, and there's so many case studies I
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: think that's the coolest thing about it. People say, yeah,
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: there's so many projects out there right now, it's such
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: a cluttered marketplace. But if you're trying to produce an
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: independent film, you can look at all of those things
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: and you can just case study them about what they
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: did right and what they did wrong. And I'm sure
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: everyone has, you know, I can't even tell you how
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: many Kickstarter film projects that I've seen that just never
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: got to production. It never saw the light of day,
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: and that's useful information. And then all the ones that
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: did make it, that's useful information. So, yes, the marketplace
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: is cluttered, but I think for indie filmmakers that's a
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: good thing because you can sit back and you can
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: plot your course more effectively than you ever could before.
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: And even just in twenty eleven when we sold that film,
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: we like, if that head of acquisition wasn't based in
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: our hometown, we never would have been able to drive
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: there and use our just in person charm. If we
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: did have it, then we certainly don't have much of
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: it anymore. But I don't know if we could pull
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: something like that off again. But like, there were just
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: so many things that added up, and if one of
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: them fell through, we wouldn't have had any idea what
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: to do because we sold directly to the broadcaster. We
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: did not get a distribution deal, nor did we even
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: seek one out because we were able to go direct
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: to the broadcasters. So now, if we were in the
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: same circumstance now, which I kind of am with this film,
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: at least you wouldn't be completely screwed if, like the
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: one thing you know to get your film out there
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: doesn't work. So it's exciting. There is a lot of noise,
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: but you can learn from the noise, and that's good too.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's an excellent point, Danny. And you raise
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: another excellent point too, and that is a lot of
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: kickstarters that don't actually see production, and that happens. I mean,
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: the most notorious of that is the in video game industry,
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: just because of all the things that happened in that industry.
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: But you know, I've seen film projects that have crowdfunded
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: and gone nowhere. I mean some are some even famously
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: have been crowdfunded. And you know, there's some pretty big
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: people that have joined the crowdfunding spectrum. I won't name names,
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: but they they've taken some money and not produced anything,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: you know. I to me, I'm sorry, Danny.
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: Oh, I just said, yikes, Yeah, that's that's a bad Yeah.
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: You don't like to hear that.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's just I always wonder. I always
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: wanted to bring one of them on this show and
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: just be like, you know, what the hell happened? Just
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: be like what did you really not have a plan?
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: Did you? Guys? Just like throw this up and somebody
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: donated like fifty grand, you know. I speaking of which,
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: I had a friend of mine who started a crowdfunding
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: campaign and in twenty twelve, he had a mysterious benefactor
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: dead serious, give him ten thousand dollars out of nowhere, Okay,
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: just out of nowhere. And I mean he was like
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: he couldn't figure out who it was, no what he
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: would do. Yeah, it was just it was out of nowhere,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: and he actually was trying to figure out who the
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: hell that was, and it just he never figured it out.
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: And I was like, well, I guess you. You know,
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: you have to make your movie now. And he kind
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: of like he almost became paralyzed by trying to figure
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: out who this was.
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: It was like, there's your movie.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: He was like more adamant about He's like, he's like,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: all right, I gotta figure out who has the resources
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: to give me ten thousand dollars and not miss it.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: And I'm just like, make your movie. Who the hell
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: cares about it?
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: Noll Like, that's a sweet ass problem. I have my friends.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: No, that's I mean, how how would that even sound
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: if you said that? Oh man, I got this bad problem.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Oh Danny, what's the problem. Oh, some random dude gave
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: me ten grand to make a film.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's keeping me up at night. I just
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: can't figure out who's generous and loves me. It's just
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: driving me insane. So we did crowdfunding for Heel Kick.
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: I should probably, and I didn't want to do it.
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: And crowdfunding is something that like, I believe in and
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: I appreciate it, but it's just something that I personally
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: don't want to do and I never wanted to do it.
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: The only reason I did a GoFundMe campaign was because
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: I was just screwed. But the advantage that I had
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: was that my film was already shot and I was
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: able to release a trailer for it. So my whole
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: GoFundMe approach was, Hey, my movie's done, so there's all
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: one hundred percent chance that if you donate to this
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: that it's not going to be lost in the abyss
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: of you know, indie filmmakers asking for money. And I
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: released a trailer and everyone could see that it was
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: complete and that it was on its way, and I
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: just said, hey, we need to pay, like you guys
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: want to see it right like we need to pay
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: for you know, ensuring we need to pay for these
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: theatrical screenings because we're just forewalling it. And if you
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: guys give us a little bit of money, the film
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: can be out right away, and if not, I just
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: don't really know what to do. So we were able.
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: We did an aggressive three week campaign and we raised
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: twelve thousand dollars and have finished off all the funds
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: that we needed and we'll.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: Be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: now back to the show.
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: We were so proud of our community and our fans
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: for helping us with that, but that people sort of
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: were like, wow, I can't believe you pulled that off
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: in just a few weeks, and I was, you know,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: but like I said, I was a little confused at
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: first too. I didn't really think it would go that well,
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: but it's because we had the film in the can
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: already and people are getting really weary of kickstarters and
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: go fundmes and products like this because you know, like
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: we have just discussed, so many of them never see
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: the light of day. And it's like, ugh, why do
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: I have to be supportive of something that I know
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: isn't gonna happen? And you know, so I think people
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: when they're pursuing these crowdfunding avenues, they just they really
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: need to have this shit together because it's going to
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: sour it for other filmmakers. You know. Imagine like knowing
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: that you could produce something if you raise twenty grand,
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: but people are just like, oh yeah right, buddy, Like
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: just like the other three I donated too, that's ruining
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: it for everyone. So you know, it's a tool, but
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: it's too accessible. You know. It's just like a phone
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: with a camera, everyone can shoot a movie. That's why
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: you got a lot of crappy movies out there. It's
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: like anyone can start kickstart a campaign for their film.
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: That's why there's so many graveyards full of dead films.
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: I never saw the light of day.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Danny. And you know, I actually knew a
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: person who would go around from project to project actually
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: just doing crowdfunding campaigns, and like her timeline was just
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: nothing but pitching crowdfunding campaigns to people, and people are
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: like tuning her out, like all you do is promote, promote, promote,
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: and like you half the time, you never even hear
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: about the movie ever after she's done promoting it. So
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: people just started tuning her out left and right, and
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: it's just like it's that fine sort of ebbing and flowing.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: It's it's kind of you know, like in market you
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: can't just keep marketing to people because they start tuning out,
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: you know. And that's what she was doing. And that's
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: why I think. You know a lot of times when
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: I had a friend of mine who was on Twitter
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: and he said he followed a bunch of filmmakers and
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: he said, literally half of my timeline is people crowdfunding projects.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: And he goes, it's just to the point where it's
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: like almost unusable, and I said, you know, it's it's
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: just the the industry and how it is sometimes personally.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: You know, there's different I mean, obviously there's there's a
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: lot of different ways of crowdfund personally, you know. I mean,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: I was guilty that in twenty ten when I was
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: crowdfunding as well. And I know it does get kind
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: of I don't want to say the word murky, but
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: I might be. But you know what I mean, Like
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: like you were just saying, Danny, it does. Some people
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: just don't want to ask people for money, or you know,
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: because it looks like online panhandling or something like that,
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean. And I've had I've had
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: people conversations with with with producers or conversations with actors
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: and stuff, and I said, you know, you guys have
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: to put up the crowdfunding campaign too, or or whatever.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: And people were out out and out and out refuse
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: because of that. They would say, oh, this is just
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: online panhandling or whatever else. And I'm like, this is
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: how you get indie films made. You know, it's funded
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: by You'd rather be funded by a crowd than funded
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: by some producer who's going to tell you how to
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: set up every single shot and how to and have
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: final edit.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean. Oh it's so true. Yeah,
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: it's so true. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: if it'll get better or worse. But you know, now
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: has never been a more important time to have it
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: together as a filmmaker and have a plan that you
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: are able to execute and a worst case scenario that
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: involves your films still getting made at the end of
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: the day.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: So, you know, speaking of films getting mad at the
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: end of the day, you made He'll Kick, which is
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: about two backyard wrestlers. And I mean, honestly, before we
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: get into it, cauld you actually just give us a
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: brief synopsis about the film.
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, So Heel Kick is about two backyard wrestlers
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: that decide to finally go pro after ten years of
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: procrastinating and saying that this is what they're destined to
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: do in their life. The only problem is that they
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: are terrible. They lack all out athletic skill required to
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: do such a thing, and they don't really have any
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: intelligence or the drive you would need to go after
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: such a grand dream. So it's a mockumentary, it's a comedy,
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: and it follows Reggie and Maurice to best friends is
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: they finally go to professional wrestling training at an academy
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: called ECCW, which is a real wrestling Academy, and yeah,
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: that's that's pretty much the black and white of it.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: So, you know, when you actually sat down to actually
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: start writing this thing, you know what was the impetus
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: for the for the idea.
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: It came from a few different places. One, I was
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: a huge wrestling fan between the ages of like eight
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: and thirteen, and then I grew out of it, but
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: I still stayed interested in the behind the scenes world
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: of it, and I like the business side of it.
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: It was really interesting to me. So I would read
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: wrestler's autobiographies, even though I wasn't absorbing like the product anymore.
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: But so I always had a great respect for it.
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: And then all of a sudden, I, you know, I
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: had all this about it, and they say, right, we
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: you know, And so that was one of the things
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: that got me going. But another was that my older
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: cousin he also loved professional wrestling but wanted to do
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: it for a living. And he, you know, he's a
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: really good looking dude, really well spoken. He's like just
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: pure muscle, six foot three, and he went to train
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: at the Lance Storm Academy in Calgary, Alberta, a prolific
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: wrestling town. And that's one of the places that really
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: ship guys off to the to the w w E
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: or the FED as they refer to it, if they're
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: any good. And so my cousin went there and he
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: quit after just like a week, and I was like, man, I,
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: you know, I couldn't believe it. This was like what
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: he'd been talking about his whole life, and it was
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: so interesting to hear him tell me how it was
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: different than he thought it would be. But even more
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: that stuck with me is when he told me about
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: some of the other kids in the class who just
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: were delusional about there, you know, like about their basically
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: their odds of making it in the business. But because
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: you can just tell when people don't have that drive
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: or don't have what it takes to do something. And
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: not like he was puting any anyone down there was
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: a lot of great talents in the class as well.
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: But I just couldn't get the hat out of my mind.
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: The idea of two people who are attempting something that
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: you know, have no idea and beea, how tough it's
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: actually going to be. And so that is sort of
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: where the idea for heal came.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: You know, I like that by the way, the experience
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: of hearing what he went how he went there and
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: you know what he found out, Because I think that's
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: a lot of times, you know, people have an idea
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: of what something is going to be, and then when
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: they finally get that, you know, that expectation, and when
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: then reality finally hits, they're like, this isn't what I
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: really wanted. You know, I didn't really want to you know,
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: I thought training was gonna be a little different, or
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: I thought this experience would be a little better, or
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: you know. And and you meet people too who have
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: that x who have that unreal expectations of what this
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: is going to give to them, or they're you know
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: what I mean. And you find that in film too,
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: where you know, somebody thinks are going to make a film,
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: you know, in the living room with an iPhone and
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: and when sun dance, you know what I mean, it's
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: like how many times have you heard that?
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: And so it's but but it's stuff like that. I mean,
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: that's why I really am glad you. Yeah, we got
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: into telling this story because it adds to the to
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: the movie itself. Because I actually I used to do
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: backgard wrestling h back here in Philadelphia, and uh, I
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: those the movie kind of speaks to me now honestly
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: the endy, I haven't seen the movie yet, and I'm
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: gonna I'm gonna make a note to actually make sure
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: I check this movie out because obviously if it's right
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: in my wheelhouse. But uh, but like you, I fell
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: out of love with wrestling a long while ago. And
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: uh but again, it's still fun to you know, see
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: movies like this about you know, backyard wrestling or or
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: you know, movies like The Wrestler and stuff like that.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: You know, it's kind of cool to to see that,
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: you know, this stuff that we used to be into
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: and you know, as long as it's a good story
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: with it and that you know, it's not all about that,
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, It's it's it's all.
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: Good, absolutely, ye. And this is kind of the wrestling
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: movie that I wished was around when I was really
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: really into wrestling. And it's been cool to screen the
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: film around North America and have real hardcore wrestling fans
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: tell me that as well. It means a lot. And
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: wrestling is such an amazing subculture and you can go
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: deep down the rabbit hole of learning about it and
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: exploring what that world is like. And it was just
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: so fun to get back into it. Not to mention
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: the fact that I literally had to train because I
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: play one of the backyard wrestlers in the movies.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: So did you like train by like getting hit with
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: like light tubes and going through tables days?
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: Well, we actually, I mean the film starts with these
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: guys are more like fans than anything. You know, they're
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: just classic procrastinators that they pretty much just goof off
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: all day. And then they're one of the guy who
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: plays my brother, Matthew Graham. He he challenges us. He says,
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: I'll pay for your wrestling school, but you have to
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: go to class every day and you have to improve.
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: And if you if you can't do it, if you
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: can't show that your fund you got what it takes,
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: then you've got to, you know, give up on this
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: wrestling dream forever and just get a real job and
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: move on with your life. So that's when they start
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: going to wrestling school. And so I wanted to show
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: real progression. So I placed myself and Chris Wilcox, who
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: plays Maurice, the other backyard wrestler. I placed us in
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: an actual training program with a real wrestling academy called
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: ECCW based in Vancouver, and they operate all over the
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: Pacific Northwest, and some really good talent comes out of there.
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: I don't know if Yeah, you know Kyle O'Reilly who's
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: just joined up in NXT the other day and he's
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: big on an indie scene, and you know, just tons
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: of great talent go through there and still go through there.
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: But we were actually training for six months to prepare
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: for what we do in the film. So yeah, we
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: didn't tell anyone that we were doing it for a movie.
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: Only very few people knew because we didn't want to
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: get treated any differently. So eventually they found out. You
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: do form, you know, serious bonds with these with the
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: people in class and the people that are training you.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: After a few months, we'll.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Be right back after a word from our sponsor and
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: now back to the.
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: Show, which you should. When you're like dropping each other
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: on your spine forty times a day, you should probably
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: get close to those people and make sure they're on
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: your good side. But yeah, so I actually had to
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: train to become a professional wrestler for it, and it
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: was you know, talk about things being different than you
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: thought they would be, oh, ma'am.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: So, you know, with your experience on Love and Hate,
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: what were some of the things that you took in
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: the heel kick? Like, was it about, you know, not
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: wearing too many hats? You know, was it maybe doing
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: things a little bit differently in terms of like planning
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: or even marketing.
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: Marketing? Definitely, because the whole world of film marketing changed
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: from twenty ten to now. So that was just something
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: that I never had to worry about before. But I
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: tried to educate myself on that as best as possible.
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: And our co producer on the film is Greg Miller,
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: and he's a really big name in the entertainment world,
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: and he's a YouTube star and really big big in
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: the video game world, and he just has a huge
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: love for professional wrestling and he and I became friends
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: a few years ago, and so he's been spreading the
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: word about the film as as the co producer getting
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: it out there. So he's been you know, he's sort
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: of our human megaphone. I like to refer to him
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: that way, and he's really helped us get butts in
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: the seats of these screenings and have people find out
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: about the film. And arts to wearing a lot of hats.
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: I still did that. I was still the writer, the lead,
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: the co director, and the producer on this project, and
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: I was in the editing room for every frame of
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: the film. And not to mention the fact that I was,
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: you know, working out and training at a professional wrestling
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: academy for six months as well. But I think the
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: difference was just getting a little bit more money together
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: so you can pay people enough that make that your
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: film is their main priority. Because that was the big
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: biggest takeaway from Love Hate was that when everyone's got
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: their other job and when you can't afford to pay anyone,
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: you know, everyone's still committed and they want and they
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: want to help you out. But when it's their job,
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: it's a whole it's a different story, right, Like everyone's
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: going to be there and nothing can take them away
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: from that place. And you also aren't working on people's
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: free time. Their free time is when they're off of
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: your set, and you know, it seems simple, but that
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: was really the biggest takeaway. If someone was going to
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: be there more than a couple of days for the shoot,
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: it was they were going to get paid for it,
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: and it was going to be their job. And so
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: with that said, I could wear all those hats, and
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: you know, there's something to be said for stepping back
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: and sharing responsibility. But and I certainly did that, even
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: though it sounds like I wore all these hats. But
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: you know, if you have a vision for something, you
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: might as well wear as many hats as you possibly can,
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: because you know, you don't want to delegate something off
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: to someone who's not as passionate about the project as
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: you are, because it's going to lose its voice. So
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: people are like, man, you did a lot in this movie,
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: and I was like, yeah, well, you know, I had
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: a very certain way that I wanted to say things,
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: So it was just kind of a no brainer for me. Really. Yeah.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: And see, so what I wanted to ask is how
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: did you go about getting George as a producer? And also,
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: like when you talk about you know, having money to
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: pay people, did you actually you know, go out and
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: put together like a pitch packet to find different people
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: and and sort of say like, you know, this is
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: what we did with Love Hate, and you know, this
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: is what we could do with this movie if we
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: had just a little bit more money.
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: Exactly Yeah. Basically, I put together at a little plan
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: and I sent it to pretty much everyone I knew
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: who I figured could spare like a couple thousand dollars
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: and they wouldn't, you know, if they never made their
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: money back, they wouldn't hate me, or they wouldn't have
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: to sell their home or something like that. So I
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: put together a package. I told everyone, you know what
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: I did with Love Hate with extremely little resources, and
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: and how I could capitalize on another film today with
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: much greater success. And we never you know, we never
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: even sold DVDs of our first film. We didn't do
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: anything else with it after that because it just became
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: so much work and we wanted to move on to
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: other projects. So it was pretty easy to convince people
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: to come on board with this one, especially after they
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: read the script and they thought it was really funny
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: and really touching and they liked it, and that was
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: pretty much it for that. And then in regards to
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: getting Greg Miller on board, Cooper and I threw a
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: charity Mario Kart tournament at this pub in Vancouver where
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: we live, and we flew celebrities from the gaming world out,
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: so we had cos players come out, We had game developers,
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: and we got in touch with Greg Miller, who was
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: just leaving his job at IGN at the time, I
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: think he was the senior PlayStation editor, and we had
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: him come out and we formed a friendship there and
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: we just stayed in touch ever since. And then the
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: closer we got, the more I realized how He'll Kick
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: was something that would be like right up his alley,
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: and I asked if he wanted to come on as
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: a co producer and help spread the word about the film,
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: and he said yes, And so that's how we've been
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: getting the word out ever since.
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: And now I see that that that's absolutely fantastic. By
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: the way, I actually called him George instead of Greg.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: I don't know why. I don't know what I forgot
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: George from. Sorry about that, but uh but uh but
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: see that that that's stuff like that, you see. Uh.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: I always have a saying, you know, your net worth
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: is your network and being able just to go up
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: to people and and you know, it's kind of like
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: what Sam Raimi did, honestly, Danny with with The First
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: Evil Dead. He went to different people and they each
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: kicked in a little bit of money, and that's how
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: he made the film, you know, rather than having one
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: investor who gives It's kind of like that idea, you know,
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: do you want one investor to give you a million
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: dollars or do you want a million investors to give
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: you one dollar?
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: Mm hmm, yeah, exactly.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: So it's kind of like, you know, there's pros and
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: cons to each and obviously you know I and honestly,
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: with doing this podcast, I've heard both and everything in between.
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: But using that you know, and using your network and
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: then able to to get somebody like Greg and and
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: as forming a relationship with him, and you know, just
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: for everyone listening to Danny, let me I just want
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: to pick your brain about this really quickly. For somebody
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: who was thinking about maybe pitching a YouTube star or
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: pitching somebody else, what are some of the tips you
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: have for them? I mean, because we've all seen that
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: mistake where it's like they meet somebody that they want
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: to work with and the first thing they do is
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: like you have to help me, please God. Do you
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: have any like tips or anything on like networking or
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: even pitching that you you know, you could just give
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: to the listeners.
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: I would say, And I think the people who are
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: the best at this would tell you the same thing,
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: and that it's that don't pester people right out of
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: the gate. You need to form honest to God relationships
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: and bonds with people and have things that you that
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: you both like and share interest in, and then if
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: something is a good fit, then I think you should
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: have approached them. Otherwise, you know, just don't go don't
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: go ringing every doorbell that you can find asking for favors.
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: Like Greg and I. You know, like we flew him
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: down to Vancouver for that thing, and that was just
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: a party and we raised like seven thousand dollars for
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: the for the BC Children's Hospital. It was just a
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: good time and we stayed in touch after that, and
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: you know, I just presented him the movie and he
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: would keep telling me, like anything you need for help
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: on this thing, like let me know, and you know,
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: so it wasn't so much me asking him as him offering.
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: And then I said, you know what, let's make it official.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: Let's make you a part of the team. So I think,
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: just like, look for the signs, like some people will
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: be interested in jumping on projects with you and others won't.
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: But in regards to like a YouTube celebrity specifically. That
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: is a thing that we're seeing a lot more of
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: in the indie film where. Oh I'm not sure if
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: you've noticed it, but when I was at the AFM
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: in Santa Monica two years ago, a lot of people's
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: pitches like weren't with movie stars anymore. It was with
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: YouTube stars in the roles and that they were coming
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: on as producers and stuff like that. And I was like, wow,
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: I just talked to like six filmmakers and and I
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: didn't know half the names they were talking about because
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: they're not actors, they're they're online celebrities. And I think
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: that's a trend that's going to be going up. So
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: I would just say for that, remember, at the end
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: of the day, your film has to be well acted.
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: And it's seems like funny to say that, but you
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: know a lot of people forget that. They just try
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: and cram them as many recognizable names into a project
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: as possible. But like, just think of all the amazing
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: talent that have been in a bad movie before. Like,
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: you're not going to watch a bad movie with your
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: favorite actor in it. And you know, I'm not saying
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: that they would be giving a bad performance, but just
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: things don't always come together, and that performance has to
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: be there on screen. So I really like the idea
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: of Greg coming on as a co producer because what
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: these people do best is build communities and build awareness
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: about things that they think are cool. And so I
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: think that the capacity in which Greg has come on
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: is a great way to involve some of these YouTube celebrities.
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: Because they're interested in production and film and stuff like that,
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: you don't necessarily have to, you know, make them the
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: star of your movie if that's something that you're not
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: comfortable doing. And I'm not saying that, you know, internet
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: celebrities aren't great performers, a lot of them are. But
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: there's more than one way to include someone in your
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: film to benefit to benefit its longevity.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I actually we had Jason Brubaker on
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: the podcast and he actually was at the forefront of
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: doing this. What he did was he got a bunch
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: of YouTuber stars together and he made Camp Dakota for
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: Netflix and they they it was a full YouTube stars. Well,
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: I have friends who were you know, you know, they're
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: probably like ten, fifteen, twenty years older than I am,
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: and they all have kids and stuff like that and
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: the kids were like, oh my god, Camp Dakota's conet, like,
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: what the hell is Camp Dakota? Who the hell are
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: these people? Why is everyone caring about this movie? And
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: it's like because it's full YouTube stars and that they
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: just packed it full of them and it was like
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: number one on Netflix when it came out. But I
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: agree with you completely by the way. You have to
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: make sure that they can because you know, if you do,
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: like a maybe a five or ten second video.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Hey, you know that's that's really cool. But you know,
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: imagine stretching that out to an hour and a half.
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: You know, is that sustainable? Is this person sustainable? Because
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: you know, like like we were just saying at the
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: beginning of this interview, if they're not in you know,
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: if they're not around film or know how this all works,
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: I mean you end up saying to them, hey, listen,
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: you used to spend an hour a day making a
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: video that got a million hits. Well now you're gonna
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: spend sixteen hours on set and we're gonna be lucky
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: to break even with this film.
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: Mm hmm. Yeah, it's just a completely different world, You're right. Yeah,
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: And Brewbaker, Jason Brewbaker is such a smart guy too.
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: And you see a lot of other people try to
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: capitalize on that idea, and uh, it doesn't always work out,
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: But I do think that's going to be a serious
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: trend in the film industry and that's not going away
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: anytime soon. So if you're gonna if you if that's
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: what you're gonna do, if you're gonna include people from
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: another industry that isn't the film industry and bring them
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: into your film project, just make sure that you're doing
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: it in the in the best way possible to service
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: the film. Yeah.
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, And uh, you know, and we've both seen movies
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: that that sort of fall into that whole like celebrity
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: sort of trap. I mean, for instance, I had a
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: friend of mine. He casted this girl specifically because of
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: her social media following. And here's the kicker, she refused
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: to promote the movie to her social media following. So yeah,
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: and it was like and and finally, begrudgingly, she finally
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: did and and it got nothing, Like they had no
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: analytics from it because nobody really followed her to hear
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: about some movie she was going to be in. They
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: wanted to see photos of her, you know, in like
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: a bikini and stuff like that. She wasn't a YouTube star.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: I should have I should have predicated everything with that.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: But she was like, you know, like a model and
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: the heat and he was like, oh my god, this
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: if we get her in there, this is going to
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: be awesome, and you know, it just all filtered away.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: It just it didn't really do much of anything, and
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: people with lower numbers had much more engage fans. We're like,
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: we want to see this person as an actor, you know,
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: we want to see this person in an actual film.
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: And you know, hey, I said, you know, it does
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: make sense though, if you think about it. You know,
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: if you follow if if some guy follows a model online,
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: does he does he necessarily would he pay to see
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: her in a movie and when he can get a
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: photo of her for free.
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: You know, yeah, it doesn't translate, It really doesn't. And yeah,
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: hopefully people will figure out the best way to do it.
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: I really love my relationship with Greg, like, well, we
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: are friends as well, but I think this is a
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: cool project and the way that and the way that
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: he's helping spread the word about it is great. And
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: you know his community is into this kind of stuff,
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: Like there's a lot of pro wrestling fans that follow
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: him in the kind of funny groups. So it was
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: just a good fit. Yeah. So if it wasn't, he
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: wouldn't be involved. But you know who knows.
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, just to going back to backyard
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: wrestling in your movie, He'll kick you know, it is
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: there is a that wrestling industry. They the fans are
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: very loyal, especially that you know, there's all the hardcore
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: fans who go to the indie shows every weekend, you know,
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: just by again, I haven't seen the movie yet, you know,
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: And I'll be honest, I haven't seen the movie yet,
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: So I don't I don't want to be one of
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: those guys Danny who tries to like, you know, fake
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: it through. Like you ever see those interviews where the
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: guy clearly hasn't seen the movie, so I ask questions like, well,
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: how did you do that thing? And it's like what
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: it's like. But but I I can you know, I
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: can imagine this is a movie for them, because this
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: again is a movie I would have wanted to see
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: in in a way because uh, you know again I
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: used to be big into wrestling and do backgard wrestling
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: stuff and do all that crazy nonsense that you look
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: back on now like, oh my god, how am I
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: not dead? But uh, you know, it's just that idea
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: of too if going to these independent shows, and that's
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: where I imagine the two guys, the two leads are
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: are two guys you know, aiming to you know, uh
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: get to the biggest you know, the league in the land.
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: But they have to you know, train at the local
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: you know, wrestling school. They have to you know, go
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: into the t and wrestle and some of these indie
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: promotions that and again it's probably not what they think it's.
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: Going to be, you know.
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: And and because it's just like real life, you know,
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: very true.
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I wanted to make a really realistic like, you know,
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: I don't want to make a movie where two guys
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: decide to be wrestlers and then boom they're fighting like
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: Stonekels You've Boston at a Roth at the final scene
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: or whatever. I want to you know, what happens when
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: two guys want to be pro wrestler as well, First
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: you research local wrestling academies and then you see if
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: they'll take you on, and then you pay your gym fees,
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: and then if you're good enough, you get put into
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: the shows, and then you can start traveling around and
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: doing it with other promotions. You know, Like I just
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: wanted to really show off what it's actually like. And
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: you know, and people have told us, and a lot
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: of people in the indie rerestling scene as well have
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: told us that it's it's really true to form, but
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: it's also you know, it's got to be funny too,
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: So there's a few liberties, but really not too much
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: at all. And I would leave out the training sections
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: from the script until I had trained more myself in
• 54:57
  Speaker 4: real life, because I wanted my actual training to be
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: reflected in the film. So I was like, I wonder
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: how this works when you're teaching someone how to do this,
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: and then when you know, when the when the wrestlers
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: would teach me how to do that, then I would
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: put it into the movie.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's really cool. And imagine too, when you
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: were talking about to the actors, you know, you probably
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: were like, hey, guys, you know, you'll probably you have
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: to go through there, take a few bumps, and they
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: have to be cool with it, you know what I mean. Like,
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: so it goes into sort of the whole idea of
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: paying your dues for your craft, if you.
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: Know what I mean. Yeah, definitely. I mean the only
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: people that really took bumps were besides the actual professional
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: wrestlers that are in the film, are myself and Chris
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: will Lcox, who plays the other wrestler. And I was
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: I don't even think I could have cast this movie
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: if I had the money to, because I don't know
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: who would have done this. Like when you see the film,
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: you'll see there's a few moments in it you're like,
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: oh my god, that that was pretty harsh. And the
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: reason that you know it's it's just extra intense for
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: an audience watching it is because you're comfortable watching a
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: movie for the first act and you're in, you're into
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: the performers, and then all of a sudden, they're doing
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: things that you would see a stuntman do, and that
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: was sort of where a production value would be. I
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: figured is that we would be doing all these things ourselves.
• 56:11
  Speaker 4: And we shot the film for only forty thousand dollars Canadian,
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: which is another thing that I wanted to bring up
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: because when people ask me, like, how'd you get all
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: the money together to shoot a heel kick? And I
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: was like, well, we you know, it's easy to get
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: the money together when you're not asking for half a
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: million dollars or three million dollars, or if you're not
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: making like a big epic sci fi film. You know, like,
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: I don't want to write something that I know I
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: could never afford to get made. But anyway back to
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: my point, Yeah, as a director, you probably shouldn't ask
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: any actor to do anything you're not willing to do yourself.
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: So I've made sure to do all the worse things
• 56:46
  Speaker 4: myself and share them, of course with my costar career.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know that's a good point too, because
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: you know, people write things that really you know, sometimes
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: they think they can shoot like a sci fi movie,
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: one hundred paid sci fi movie for like ten thousand dollar,
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: and it's just like or there was a person I
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: knew who was trying to shoot a time traveling period
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: piece for like five grand, and I said, you're going
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: to spend five thousand dollars in in in clothes alone, unless,
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: of course, yeah, unless of course you travel back in
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: time and you shoot it in a in a state park,
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: and you also have one character dressed up in like
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: in historical times, you know, uh regalia, and and then
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: it's even pushing it like so it has to be
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: like a very quick, quickly done and shot very very carefully.
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: So because if you you know, if you have something
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: in the background like a skyscraper or you know it's
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: supposed to be a war going on, there's no you know,
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: there's no army or something, it looks it immediately just
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: destroys the whole idea what you're trying to do.
• 57:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you gotta be careful about what you're planning on shooting.
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So yeah, it's just that's why again you know,
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: we always have to have you know, always aim high.
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: But then I always you know, realize what you have
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: access to, you know, make those lists of resources and
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: stuff like that, you know. And so Denny, I wanted
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: to ask you where could people check out Heel Kick movie.
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: So currently it's just we're four walling a little theatrical
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: tour around North America. So upcoming screenings are gonna be
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: there's gonna be one in Saskatoon, there's gonna be one
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: in Portland, and most likely one in Seattle, and those
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: are going to be over the next six or seven weeks,
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: and then we were finally going to call it a
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: day with our theatrical tour and we're going to get
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: the film out there onto iTunes. We're going to self
• 58:33
  Speaker 4: distribute it. So we're using just Stribber speaking of a
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: Jason Brubaker, So that is going to be what we're
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: rolling out in the next little while here in the meantime. Yeah,
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: people can follow it at heel Kick Movie on Twitter, Instagram,
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: and Facebook.
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and very cool you're touring with it, and yeah,
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: Jason brew Baker, awesome guy, I'm so glad that you're
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: using the Stribber. I'm doll you. I always tell people,
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: if you really are confused about how to distributer movie movie,
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: go talk to Jason. Like Jason's so up, like just
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: straightforward with it too. He goes, look, maybe you can
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: just put a buy now button on a website, you
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: know what I mean. And it's just he's not even
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: though he does work for the Stribber, he's not always like, oh,
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: you got to go to the Stubber or else, blah
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: blah blah. He is like one of the straightest and
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: most honest guys, and he's so knowledgeable, like you said,
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: and he's a good guy to know.
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he's a straight shooter and he's a really good guy.
• 59:25
  Speaker 4: I would I would recommend indie filmmakers think about using
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: that platform or other ones like it early, like while
• 59:33
  Speaker 4: you're writing, because it's it's just gonna make things so
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: much easier if you know where what your filming should
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: wind up and what avenues you're gonna take it down
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: before you even start shooting. Yeah.
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, So, you know, Danny, we've been talking for about
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: I guess maybe about fifty five minutes now, you know,
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: is there anything in closing that you have any part,
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: like tonnel thoughts or anything you want to say that
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: we get a chance to, or or even just anything
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: you want to say to put a period at the
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: end of this whole conversation.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, check out the trailer if it seems
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: like a movie that interests your follow us along. We're
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: really active on social media, and we always let people
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: know where the film is going to be and when
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: it's going to be out and we'd love for people
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: to watch it. Really do not have to know anything
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: about professional wrestling at all to enjoy the film that is,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: and that's me quoting hundreds of people who have seen
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: it who have no interest in professional wrestling, and that
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: was just as important to us as making a film
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: that hardcore wrestling fans would love as well. So we
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: think we've struck the balance. Yeah, and you'll definitely get
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: some blast out of it. So I really hope people
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: can check it out and hopefully it is out there
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 4: in the big wide world of the internet's early fall,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: maybe like early October, and.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: I'm going to make sure check out the movie when
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: it comes out, Danny and into the October, because I
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: do want to check this out again because it is
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: right up my alleyway. And Danny, where can weeple find
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: you out online?
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: Online? They can find me the underscore Danny Mack, pretty
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: much everywhere. Danny Mack.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: I want to say thank you so much for coming
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: on and Chatt and Heel Kickmovie and all this good stuff.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: Danny.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: I wish you the best luck with Heel Kickmovie, and
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: I look forward to see what we got coming out
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: next after this is all said and done, all the
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: desk settles, and you know I want to see what
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: you come out with next.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: Thanks very much. I'm into the show and I think
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 4: it's a great tool for filmmakers to listen to, so
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: I appreciate being on.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Forward slash four fifty two. Thank you so much for listening. Guys,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: to you soon.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: Screenwriting dot tv.