Latest / Narcisist Psychology / The Man Who Stole a Scholar's Life: Inside the Holloway Theft
Transcript
- 0:03Speaker 1: At seven forty in the morning on July fourteen, two
- 0:07Speaker 1: thoy nineteen, a well service contractor named Dwayne Baker stepped
- 0:12Speaker 1: into a shed on a quiet residential property on Aldermore
- 0:16Speaker 1: Road in Callister Township, Indiana. He was there to check
- 0:21Speaker 1: a water softener. What he found instead was a cardboard
- 0:24Speaker 1: banker's box sitting on the shelf above it, stuffed with
- 0:28Speaker 1: forty three printed academic papers annotated in two different ink
- 0:33Speaker 1: colors in handwriting that belonged to no one who lived there.
- 0:38Speaker 1: The shed's hasp had been carefully unscrewed and left to hang.
- 0:43Speaker 1: That box would eventually become federal evidence, but first it
- 0:47Speaker 1: would force a question that took investigators months to fully answer.
- 0:51Speaker 1: How does a man with no university appointment, no office,
- 0:55Speaker 1: no salary, and no legitimate access to anyone's research end
- 0:59Speaker 1: up with five years of stolen academic work stored ten
- 1:02Speaker 1: feet from his victim's back door. This is the story
- 1:05Speaker 1: of how one person dismantled another person's reality so completely
- 1:11Speaker 1: that the victim apologized to the man who was robbing him.
- 1:14Speaker 1: Ryan Wilson was forty four years old in the summer
- 1:17Speaker 1: of two thousand fourteen. He was an associate professor of
- 1:21Speaker 1: cognitive science at Vanthorpe University in Indiana, living in a
- 1:26Speaker 1: house on Aldermore Road in a small community called Callister Township.
- 1:31Speaker 1: By every external measure, he was doing well. He had
- 1:34Speaker 1: doctoral students, an active research program, and a reputation for
- 1:38Speaker 1: genuine intellectual generosity. Colleagues described him as the kind of
- 1:42Speaker 1: professor who remembered the details of your work months after
- 1:46Speaker 1: a single conversation. He also had a habit that would
- 1:49Speaker 1: later seem in hindsight almost unbearably ordinary. Every morning, he
- 1:55Speaker 1: walked four miles along the same route through Callister Township,
- 2:00Speaker 1: passing a wide oak tree that sat near the midpoint
- 2:02Speaker 1: of the loop. It was the kind of small grounding
- 2:06Speaker 1: ritual that busy academics build to hold their days together.
- 2:10Speaker 1: Nothing about it was remarkable. It would become remarkable later.
- 2:15Speaker 1: Ryan was working on a monograph. It was a long
- 2:18Speaker 1: form academic project, the kind of book length argument that
- 2:22Speaker 1: takes years to build and requires sustained collaboration to sharpen.
- 2:27Speaker 1: He had been developing it for some time. What he needed,
- 2:30Speaker 1: or believed he needed, was an outside intellectual partner, someone
- 2:34Speaker 1: who could read across disciplines, push back on the argument
- 2:38Speaker 1: help him see the shape of the whole thing. Someone
- 2:40Speaker 1: who was not already embedded in the institutional politics of Vanthorpe.
- 2:45Speaker 1: In September of two thousand fourteen, had a faculty reception
- 2:49Speaker 1: at Vanthorpe. Ryan met Leon Harris. Leon was forty one
- 2:53Speaker 1: that summer. He had a Master of Fine Arts degree
- 2:56Speaker 1: from a program that would later lose its accreditation. His
- 3:00Speaker 1: professional history included stints as a grant's administrator and a
- 3:03Speaker 1: freelance technical editor. He had audited courses at three different universities.
- 3:09Speaker 1: He had no formal academic appointment anywhere, but he moved
- 3:13Speaker 1: through academic spaces with the ease of someone who understood
- 3:17Speaker 1: exactly how those spaces worked. He knew the language, the hierarchies,
- 3:22Speaker 1: the anxieties. He knew what an associate professor building a
- 3:26Speaker 1: major project actually needed to hear. A junior lecturer named
- 3:29Speaker 1: Brian Kowalski brought Leon to that September reception. Later, Kowalski
- 3:35Speaker 1: would describe their acquaintance as limited, but by the end
- 3:39Speaker 1: of the evening, Leon and Ryan had talked for a
- 3:43Speaker 1: long time. Leon had read widely. He asked good questions.
- 3:48Speaker 1: He seemed according to later accounts, genuinely excited by Ryan's research.
- 3:53Speaker 1: What followed was a courtship. There is no other word
- 3:56Speaker 1: for it. Leon began attending departmental events. He had dinners
- 4:01Speaker 1: at Ryan's home on Aldermore Road. He positioned himself as
- 4:05Speaker 1: the ideal collaborator for the monograph, someone who could contribute
- 4:09Speaker 1: without competing, who had no institutional agenda of his own.
- 4:14Speaker 1: By twenty fifteen, Leon had an informal desk in Ryan's
- 4:18Speaker 1: anti room. Ryan told university administrators that Leon was a
- 4:23Speaker 1: visiting researcher collaborating on the monograph. None of that was true,
- 4:29Speaker 1: but it was what Ryan believed, and by the time
- 4:32Speaker 1: the first warning signs appeared, Ryan had already been shaped
- 4:36Speaker 1: slowly and methodically to doubt himself rather than the man
- 4:40Speaker 1: sitting across from him. There was something else already in
- 4:43Speaker 1: motion by then, something Ryan did not know existed. In
- 4:48Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, more than a year before Leon walked into
- 4:52Speaker 1: that faculty reception, someone purchased a prepaid debit card at
- 4:56Speaker 1: a pharmacy in Indianapolis. That card was used to register
- 4:59Speaker 1: a website. The website was called The Holloway Theft. It
- 5:03Speaker 1: was hosted on an untraceable repository and credited entirely to
- 5:07Speaker 1: a scholar named Emmett Holloway, the founding chair of a
- 5:10Speaker 1: program at van Thorpe. Emmett Holloway had been dead for
- 5:14Speaker 1: approximately eleven years. The Holloway theft existed before Ryan Wilson
- 5:19Speaker 1: knew Leon Harris's name. That detail matters more than almost
- 5:24Speaker 1: anything else in this case. Leon did not build the
- 5:27Speaker 1: infrastructure after meeting Ryan. He built it first. The prepaid card,
- 5:32Speaker 1: the untraceable domain, the dead man's name above the masthead.
- 5:36Speaker 1: All of it was in place by two thy thirteen.
- 5:39Speaker 1: Leon walked into that September faculty reception with a website
- 5:43Speaker 1: already running. What he needed was a subject. Ryan was
- 5:47Speaker 1: the subject. The theft began accumulating content slowly, the way
- 5:52Speaker 1: sediment builds. Early posts were a general commentary on methodology
- 5:57Speaker 1: and links to published work in cognitive science, the kind
- 6:00Speaker 1: of thing that looked at a glance like a hobbyist
- 6:04Speaker 1: curator keeping a field's memory alive. Nothing that would alarm anyone,
- 6:09Speaker 1: nothing that required close reading to accept. But here is
- 6:13Speaker 1: the thing about the theft's early posts. When investigators later
- 6:17Speaker 1: mapped submission dates against publication dates against publication dates for
- 6:22Speaker 1: the graduate students in Ryan's department. A pattern emerged that
- 6:26Speaker 1: had been invisible in real time. The theft was not
- 6:30Speaker 1: commenting on published work. In several documented cases, it was
- 6:34Speaker 1: commenting on work that had not yet been published, work
- 6:37Speaker 1: that existed only in draft shared inside Ryan's research group.
- 6:42Speaker 1: Marcus Webb was a second year doctoral student in twenty fifteen.
- 6:47Speaker 1: He noticed something that autumn. A citation in the theft
- 6:51Speaker 1: referred to a methodological framework he had been developing in
- 6:54Speaker 1: a seminar paper. The paper had never been distributed outside
- 6:58Speaker 1: the department. Ryan. When Marcus raised it, offered a gentle explanation.
- 7:04Speaker 1: Parallel development was common in active fields, great minds converging independently.
- 7:11Speaker 1: Marcus accepted that he had no reason not to. Ryan
- 7:15Speaker 1: was his adviser. Priya ne'er noticed the same anomaly that
- 7:19Speaker 1: same season. A fellowship methodology she had designed specific enough
- 7:24Speaker 1: that parallel development was statistically improbable, appeared in a theft
- 7:29Speaker 1: post attributed to Emmett Holloway. Priya did not report him,
- 7:33Speaker 1: even she was a third year student. The theft was authoritative,
- 7:37Speaker 1: the founding chair's name was on it. To challenge it,
- 7:40Speaker 1: would have meant challenging a dead man's legacy and implicitly
- 7:45Speaker 1: the department's institutional memory. Two students, two separate anomalies, both
- 7:51Speaker 1: swallowed in silence. Meanwhile, the monograph continued. Leon's role as
- 7:56Speaker 1: collaborator deepened. By twenty sixteen, he had an informal desk
- 8:01Speaker 1: in Ryan's ante room. He attended meetings. He knew which
- 8:04Speaker 1: grants were pending, which invitations Ryan had received, which junior
- 8:09Speaker 1: researchers were rising in the department. He had access not
- 8:14Speaker 1: to systems, not to credentials, but to the texture of
- 8:17Speaker 1: Ryan's professional life. That texture was enough. Then came the
- 8:22Speaker 1: injury in January of twenty seventeen, Ryan torah knee ligament.
- 8:28Speaker 1: The recovery was significant, weeks of limited mobility, difficulty getting
- 8:32Speaker 1: to campus. Leon offered to help manage correspondence. It seemed
- 8:37Speaker 1: like exactly the kind of thing a trusted collaborator would do.
- 8:41Speaker 1: Ryan granted Leon access to his university email account. Leon
- 8:45Speaker 1: used that access for three months. What he did with
- 8:48Speaker 1: it was not spectacular, no single dramatic act. What investigators
- 8:54Speaker 1: later reconstructed from server logs was a pattern of quiet intervention.
- 8:59Speaker 1: Certain messages were forwarded to addresses that traced back eventually
- 9:03Speaker 1: to Leon. Certain invitations were declined on Ryan's behalf. Two
- 9:07Speaker 1: of those declined invitations, when Peterson later mapped them against
- 9:12Speaker 1: the theft's timeline, would have placed Ryan in direct contact
- 9:16Speaker 1: with people who might have identified the theft as fraudulent.
- 9:19Speaker 1: Leon did not block a floodgate. He redirected a current
- 9:23Speaker 1: one message at a time. The shed on Ryan's property
- 9:27Speaker 1: completed the picture of how physical documents traveled. Leon visited
- 9:31Speaker 1: Aldermore Road seven times over eighteen months. On one of
- 9:36Speaker 1: those visits, confirmed by Dwayne Baker's later account of the
- 9:39Speaker 1: property's maintenance history, Leon unscrewed the hasp on the shed door,
- 9:44Speaker 1: carefully left it hanging. A contractor would not notice. A
- 9:48Speaker 1: homeowner rarely inspects a shed hasp, But a door that
- 9:52Speaker 1: appears locked while opening freely is something different. It is
- 9:56Speaker 1: a passage. Marcus Webb came back in early two twenty eighteen.
- 10:01Speaker 1: He had not let the two thousand fifteen anomaly go.
- 10:05Speaker 1: He had kept his seminar paper, He had kept notes,
- 10:10Speaker 1: and what he brought to Ryan that morning was not
- 10:13Speaker 1: a suspicion. It was a verbatim paragraph lifted from his prospectus,
- 10:18Speaker 1: word for word, dated months before the theft post that
- 10:22Speaker 1: contained it, placed next to that theft post on the
- 10:25Speaker 1: same sheet of paper. There was no innocent explanation for
- 10:30Speaker 1: what Marcus was showing him. Ryan apologized that response. An
- 10:35Speaker 1: apology rather than an investigation, is the moment this case
- 10:39Speaker 1: pivots on. Not because Ryan was complicit, the evidence is
- 10:43Speaker 1: clear that he was not, but because five years of careful,
- 10:47Speaker 1: methodical erosion had done its work. Ryan had been shaped,
- 10:52Speaker 1: encounter by encounter to absorb anomalies as his own failure,
- 10:56Speaker 1: rather than as evidence of external interference. When the proof
- 10:59Speaker 1: of his first instinct was not outrage, it was contrition.
- 11:05Speaker 1: Marcus left the program four months later. Leon by that
- 11:09Speaker 1: point had introduced a postdoctoral researcher named Norah Sloane into
- 11:14Speaker 1: Ryan's circle Spring of twenty seventeen. Nora was real. The
- 11:20Speaker 1: introduction was genuine enough. What was not genuine was a
- 11:23Speaker 1: comment Leon told Ryan that Nora had made appointed criticism
- 11:28Speaker 1: about Ryan's handling of graduate students, his management of intellectual credit,
- 11:34Speaker 1: the kind of thing that, if true, would sting, and
- 11:37Speaker 1: that a person holds privately and worries about alone. Norah
- 11:42Speaker 1: Sloane later stated she had made no such comment. She
- 11:46Speaker 1: had made a general observation about hierarchies in academic departments,
- 11:51Speaker 1: nothing critical of Ryan. Leon had taken a sentence spoken
- 11:55Speaker 1: in passing and rebuilt it into a targeted accusation. That
- 11:59Speaker 1: is the architecture of the method. It did not require
- 12:02Speaker 1: dramatic acts. It required calibration. Find what a person fears
- 12:07Speaker 1: about themselves, apply pressure there quietly, using sources they trust,
- 12:12Speaker 1: and repeat until the pressure feels internal. Ryan had begun
- 12:16Speaker 1: to doubt his own judgment about the students, his own
- 12:20Speaker 1: credit practices, his own memory of conversations. When the proof
- 12:24Speaker 1: of theft arrived in twenty eighteen, he apologized that apology
- 12:30Speaker 1: was not weakness. It was the logical output of five
- 12:33Speaker 1: years of engineered self doubt. Picture the Holloway theft as
- 12:37Speaker 1: a structure built to answer one question before that question
- 12:40Speaker 1: could be asked. If a graduate student noticed their work
- 12:43Speaker 1: appearing under a dead man's name, the theft's own authority
- 12:47Speaker 1: answered the challenge. Emme at Holloway was a foundational figure.
- 12:52Speaker 1: This was his repository. This was his repository, and parallel
- 12:57Speaker 1: development was always possible to active feel Ryan had already
- 13:01Speaker 1: offered that explanation in good faith because it was the
- 13:05Speaker 1: explanation Leon had made available to him. If that scenario holds, everything,
- 13:10Speaker 1: the theft claimed is simply a tragic coincidence a scholar's
- 13:14Speaker 1: legacy repository that happened to anticipate work being developed inside
- 13:18Speaker 1: one department. But that version collapses when you look at
- 13:22Speaker 1: the submission dates. Grant Peterson, the former financial crimes investigator
- 13:28Speaker 1: hired by Vanthorpe's council, mapped forty three printed papers against
- 13:32Speaker 1: their publication records and the theft's posting history. In case
- 13:36Speaker 1: after case, theft commentary preceded public availability of the work
- 13:40Speaker 1: being discussed. The only people with access to that work
- 13:43Speaker 1: before publication were inside Ryan's department, and the only person
- 13:48Speaker 1: with informal, sustained unsupervised access to Ryan's ante room, his email,
- 13:54Speaker 1: and his property across that entire period was Leon Harris.
- 13:59Speaker 1: A second scenario rewrites Leon's role. In this version, Leon
- 14:04Speaker 1: is not an architect. He is an opportunist who noticed
- 14:07Speaker 1: a poorly secured repository and began inserting himself into it.
- 14:11Speaker 1: The plan is improvised, reactive, not premeditated. The prepaid debit
- 14:17Speaker 1: card purchased in Indianapolis in twenty thirteen, destroys that reading entirely.
- 14:23Speaker 1: The card predates Leon's introduction to Ryan by more than
- 14:27Speaker 1: a year. The theft existed before the relationship. Leon did
- 14:31Speaker 1: not find an opportunity. He manufactured one, then walked into
- 14:35Speaker 1: a faculty reception to find the person who would fill it.
- 14:38Speaker 1: Paula Ouxner, a former junior researcher in northern Ohio, came
- 14:43Speaker 1: forward in August of twenty nineteen after seeing Leon's photograph.
- 14:48Speaker 1: She described a near identical operation in two thousand and nine.
- 14:52Speaker 1: The same slow proximity, the same informal access, the same
- 14:57Speaker 1: pattern of documents and ideas appearing in places they should
- 15:00Speaker 1: not have been. That operation ended when Leon was asked
- 15:04Speaker 1: to leave over expense irregularities, no criminal charges. He moved on.
- 15:09Speaker 1: He refined the method. What Leon built at Van Thorpe
- 15:13Speaker 1: was not improvised. It was version two of something he
- 15:16Speaker 1: had already tested. The Holloway theft was not a scheme
- 15:20Speaker 1: that grew in the dark. It was infrastructure laid down
- 15:24Speaker 1: deliberately waiting for the right subject to arrive. Leon Harris
- 15:29Speaker 1: was arrested on July twenty second two Thy nineteen, sixteen
- 15:33Speaker 1: days after Dwaine Baker found the Banker's box in Ryan
- 15:37Speaker 1: Wilson's shed, federal agents had enough. The box was not
- 15:41Speaker 1: the only cash Leon had built, but it was the
- 15:44Speaker 1: one he had not retrieved in time. When investigators reached him,
- 15:48Speaker 1: Leon cooperated. He confirmed the location of a storage unit
- 15:53Speaker 1: in Bloomington containing everything every post the Holloway Theft had
- 15:58Speaker 1: ever published, every source document he had drawn from, forwarded
- 16:02Speaker 1: e mails from Ryan's account, and credentials for four additional
- 16:06Speaker 1: accounts at institutions not yet named in any headline. He
- 16:11Speaker 1: had not been running one operation, he had been running five.
- 16:15Speaker 1: The charges covered wire fraud, identity fraud against a deceased
- 16:19Speaker 1: individual's estate, and theft of intellectual property across multiple counts.
- 16:24Speaker 1: Leon pleaded guilty in February of two THY twenty. The
- 16:29Speaker 1: sentence was six years federal. Within forty eight hours of
- 16:34Speaker 1: his arrest, the Holloway Theft website went dark. Eleven years
- 16:38Speaker 1: of fabricated, scholarly commentary built on the borrowed name of
- 16:42Speaker 1: a man who had been dead since two thousand eight,
- 16:45Speaker 1: disappeared from the Internet in two days. The Banker's Box
- 16:49Speaker 1: forty three papers, two ink colors, one set of unfamiliar
- 16:54Speaker 1: annotations entered the Federal Evidence Archive. It is still there.
- 16:58Speaker 1: What the investigation confirmed was not just scope but sequence.
- 17:03Speaker 1: Grant Peterson, working from twelve student interviews and a chain
- 17:07Speaker 1: of posting dates mapped against submission records, had already established
- 17:12Speaker 1: the workflow before Leon said a word. The theft had
- 17:15Speaker 1: functioned as a kind of shadow peer review, one that
- 17:19Speaker 1: Leon controlled entirely, one whose commentary could be used to
- 17:24Speaker 1: shape how Ryan interpreted his own student's work. The goal
- 17:28Speaker 1: was not to steal a single paper, It was to
- 17:32Speaker 1: occupy a position inside the intellectual ecosystem of an entire
- 17:37Speaker 1: department indefinitely. PAULA. Oxner's testimony in August of twenty nineteen
- 17:43Speaker 1: confirmed what the prepaid card had already implied. Leon had
- 17:47Speaker 1: done this before. The two thousand nine operation in northern
- 17:51Speaker 1: Ohio followed the same architecture, slow proximity, informal access ideas,
- 17:58Speaker 1: migrating from private documents into the spaces where attribution became plausible.
- 18:02Speaker 1: That operation ended when he was asked to leave over
- 18:06Speaker 1: expense irregularities. No criminal charges were filed. He spent the
- 18:10Speaker 1: next four years building a more durable version of the
- 18:13Speaker 1: same machine. Prior schemes were confirmed at two institutions before
- 18:18Speaker 1: Van Thorpe. The court record does not name them. What
- 18:21Speaker 1: it establishes is that by the time Leon walked into
- 18:25Speaker 1: a faculty reception in September of two thousand fourteen and
- 18:29Speaker 1: introduced himself to Ryan Wilson, he was not experiment. He
- 18:34Speaker 1: was executing a tested method on a more sophisticated target.
- 18:38Speaker 1: The university issued a formal statement in spring of twenty twenty.
- 18:43Speaker 1: Graduate students whose work had been compromised were acknowledged by
- 18:47Speaker 1: name Preonnaire's earlier fellowship methodology. The one Elaine Morrow had
- 18:52Speaker 1: recognized in the theft in June of twenty nineteen was
- 18:56Speaker 1: publicly credited to her. Marcus Webb, who had tried to
- 19:00Speaker 1: raise the alarm in two thousand fifteen and returned with
- 19:04Speaker 1: direct evidence in two thousand eighteen, completed his dissertation at
- 19:09Speaker 1: a different institution. The program he left did not follow
- 19:14Speaker 1: him there. Ryan Wilson took a sabbatical in the fall
- 19:17Speaker 1: of two thousand nineteen. He gave one interview to a
- 19:20Speaker 1: journalist some time after Leon's guilty plea. He did not
- 19:24Speaker 1: discuss the details of the case at length. He said
- 19:27Speaker 1: he had returned to his morning walks four miles the
- 19:31Speaker 1: same route passed the wide oak on the Committee Road.
- 19:35Speaker 1: What Leon Harris understood, and what makes this case genuinely
- 19:39Speaker 1: difficult to set aside, is that he did not primarily
- 19:42Speaker 1: steal ideas. He stole the cognitive ground on which Ryan
- 19:46Speaker 1: Wilson stood to evaluate those ideas. By the time the
- 19:50Speaker 1: theft was running at full capacity, Ryan had been conditioned
- 19:54Speaker 1: to doubt his own judgment in a specific and targeted way.
- 19:57Speaker 1: Students noticed discrepancies and brought them to him. He apologized.
- 20:03Speaker 1: A postoc named Norah Sloane was introduced as a social lever,
- 20:07Speaker 1: and a criticism Leon had fabricated was placed in her mouth.
- 20:11Speaker 1: Ryan withdrew his e mail During three months of recovery
- 20:15Speaker 1: from a knee injury, was accessible to the one person
- 20:18Speaker 1: who most needed it to remain unmonitored. Every door that
- 20:22Speaker 1: might have let light in was managed quietly from the inside.
- 20:26Speaker 1: There is a particular kind of damage that does not
- 20:29Speaker 1: leave a visible mark. Ryan never lost his position. His
- 20:33Speaker 1: name never appeared on a retraction notice. From the outside.
- 20:37Speaker 1: His career continued, but the five years between two thousand
- 20:41Speaker 1: fourteen and two thousand nineteen were years in which his
- 20:45Speaker 1: professional judgment was systematically undermined by some one he trusted
- 20:49Speaker 1: enough to give a key to his shed. Marcus Webb
- 20:53Speaker 1: lost more than four years of a doctoral programme before
- 20:56Speaker 1: he could complete his work somewhere else. Preonaire spent years
- 21:00Speaker 1: carrying a suspicion she could not fully articulate. Nora Sloan
- 21:04Speaker 1: had a statement attributed to her that she never made
- 21:07Speaker 1: about a colleague she respected. None of them were targets
- 21:11Speaker 1: in the way Ryan was. They were instruments. The distinction
- 21:15Speaker 1: is real, and it is also cold comfort. The case
- 21:18Speaker 1: troubles something deeper than the question of what Leon took.
- 21:22Speaker 1: It troubles the question of what he used to take it, specifically,
- 21:26Speaker 1: the ordinary trust that makes intellectual communities function. The theft
- 21:31Speaker 1: worked because pere commentary is supposed to be credible. The
- 21:34Speaker 1: informal desk worked because collaborative presence is supposed to be collegial.
- 21:39Speaker 1: The email access worked because injury is supposed to create allowance.
- 21:44Speaker 1: Leon did not exploit weaknesses. He exploited the normal operating
- 21:48Speaker 1: assumptions of a world built on good faith. There is
- 21:51Speaker 1: something in this case that resists easy resolution. Even after
- 21:55Speaker 1: the sentence is handed down. Six years federal is a
- 21:59Speaker 1: consequent on. The storage unit in Bloomington is cataloged, the
- 22:04Speaker 1: website is gone. The name Emmett Holloway has been returned
- 22:08Speaker 1: to the quiet of a university archive where it belongs.
- 22:12Speaker 1: But Ryan Wilson walks four miles every morning past a
- 22:15Speaker 1: wide oak tree on a road named for a committee
- 22:19Speaker 1: that once debated ideas in a room he trusted. The
- 22:23Speaker 1: walk is the same, the route is the same. What
- 22:26Speaker 1: he thinks about on that road is not in any
- 22:28Speaker 1: court record. This show is made by Obo Media