Latest / The Failure Gap / A Conversation With Dan Johnson, CEO, Innovation Federal Credit Union

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A Conversation With Dan Johnson, CEO, Innovation Federal Credit Union · The Failure Gap

• speaker-0 (00:00) Welcome to the Failure Gap, the podcast where leaders get real about what it takes to move from agreement to alignment and turn strategy into action. I'm Julie Williamson, CEO of Kerakin's Group and author of the best-selling book Make How Matter. I started this podcast because I've seen the same pattern in boardrooms, leadership teams, and organizations of every size. Smart people agree on the strategy, the priorities, and the goals, but progress still stalls. The space between knowing what to do and aligning your team around how to do it together is what I call the failure gap. At Carrickens Group, our work is focused on helping leaders close the failure gap by making how matter. So alignment becomes more than agreement in the room. It becomes shared action across the organization. In each episode, I sit down with leaders from all sorts of organizations. To talk about the real stories behind transformation, the tough lessons, the hard decisions, and the breakthroughs that help them to move forward. Thank you for joining me today. Now let's close the failure gap. We talk with leaders about closing the space between agreement and alignment. We love talking with interesting people, and today we're joined by Dan Johnson. He's the CEO of Innovation Credit Union, and I'm really thrilled that you're gonna have the opportunity to hear about his experiences. leading this organization and also a little bit about his journey to leadership. Dan, welcome to the Failure Gap. speaker-1 (01:28) Well, thank you so much and thanks for having me. speaker-0 (01:31) Yeah, looking forward to it. As we get started, I would love for you to share with our listeners just a little bit about your leadership journey. What brought you to being the CEO of Innovation Credit Union? speaker-1 (01:41) Well, so I've been in financial services just over thirty years. And I you know, I think you know, one of the things that I that I look at when I look at my career is I I had a a series of three year stints and in a lot of cases those were deliberate. I wanted to make sure I wasn't pigeonholed into a certain technical role. And in some cases I took promotions and maybe even some lateral or even ones that some would argue was A step back in order to augment my career overall. I stayed primarily in the you know in the credit union sector in financial services in Canada. And, you know, part of that is I wonder if if that was the right path, because maybe I didn't have the courage to step out of the financial services sector. I'm not sure. But it's worked out. Those three year stints has allowed me to, you know, generate a lot of experience, broad-based experience. We've had to move a little bit as a family, which again was a part of the you know, it's a part of the role. If you want to you know, move up or laterally in your career we've we've done that. But it worked out extremely well. And so for the last fifteen years I've been at Innovation Federal Credit Union. speaker-0 (02:51) That's great. And I think that idea of those three year stints early on is so powerful because often people just want to stay on a track. But when you force yourself to get some diversity of experiences, that's really almost what you need in this CEO role is to have boots on the ground experience with different parts of the business. And so those lateral moves or even taking a step back can help round out your perspective on the whole enterprise. speaker-1 (03:18) Yeah, I totally agree. And you know, if I'm having mentoring sessions with others looking to career path, those are the things that I mention. I mean, you you don't want to get too technical unless that's your passion. But if you want to, you know, get into more of a executive broad-based role, then then take on these challenges, even though you might not feel very comfortable going into them. It's just super important for you to broaden out your experience. And and that's that's been helpful for me. I mean you don't wanna move too much, right? You don't wanna be a like a gypsy and moved, you know, into different parts real quickly. So you have to kind of be a bit calculated there as well and and actually be deliberate about your plan. speaker-0 (04:01) Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a fair point. And it is about the narrative as well around it, that it's about building those experiences to help you at an enterprise level. It's not about being capricious or like just jumping from place to place 'cause you're bored or things got hard or something like that. speaker-1 (04:18) Yeah. I think there's even one one or two examples where it would have been a really good thing, both monetarily and potentially career pathing, but I specifically declined it because I just didn't give my current role a fair enough contribution. So sometimes it's the decisions you don't take that you know that help you in the long run. speaker-0 (04:41) Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And you can't just chase the dollar. It has to be about doing, you know, what's right for the path that you've set forth for yourself. speaker-1 (04:50) Yeah, exactly. speaker-0 (04:53) You know, when we talk about agreement to alignment, it's easy to agree that you should have this sort of well-rounded approach to your career. But we do see people hold back from that or they want the steady, secure path. And you do mentor a lot of people. You mentioned your mentoring conversations with folks. And before we dive into some of the bigger things around teams, when you think about individuals agreeing that it's a good idea to have this courage to take some chances and to have some diversity in their experience, it's hard to get aligned and get that done when maybe money's on the line or when you're not sure if you're gonna be able to be successful. What do you think are some of the characteristics of people who are able to do that? speaker-1 (05:34) I think about this a lot for myself, anyways, because sometimes you get comfortable or I use the word courage. As I said, I've been 30 years in financial services, 30 years in the credit union sector, and I've had opportunities to head outside, and I never took them. And sometimes I think about that. So I think courage is one of them. Like you really want to make sure that you build up that kind of entrepreneurial courage so that you do or are are okay with taking calculated risks, knowing that, you know what, you know, the work that you've done already in your career will serve you well no matter what you do. And a lot of times it's that that growth mindset that you need in order to say it's okay to venture out, maybe make some mistakes. It's okay to learn something new. And and I think that's that's an important trait for those looking to you know, navigate through through their career. you know, and then I guess don't get too impatient, right? So sometimes you think that, well, this is going to be a better job, but it turns out not to be early on, but you can you can create your own space in a lot of ways. So so make sure that you're not jumping too soon, but also not jumping back or somewhere else too soon as well. You have to give it some some time so to create that patience because it's always a learning opportunity. speaker-0 (06:51) Yeah. Yeah. And I do think sometimes people forget that they have to learn and grow as well in these new roles. So they have to give themselves some time to, you know, really wrap their arms around it. I think that's that's really astute. And the idea of bringing courage into that moment to say, I'm gonna go try something, or the courage to stay and to learn and grow where you are. those are decisions that we all have agency over. And I do feel like Sometimes people forget how much agency they have and how much control they they actually do have. That growth mindset is what gets you through. speaker-1 (07:25) Yeah, and I and I can I guess think of scenarios where you don't do something because you're worried if what happens if it doesn't work out or what happens if I don't do you know the best I can and having that being vulnerable and I guess okay with with that I think is important. And it's something that I've probably still struggle with is is you know showing up and making mistakes and then feeling that geez w are people thinking that I'm, you know, not a good leader, I'm not capable. But I think if you if you approach it authentically, typically your teams, your peers, they they give you that capacity and that latitude to be just human. And I think that's that's an important reminder as you know as you're navigating through your career. speaker-0 (08:10) Yeah. Showing up as the human that you are. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's great. Thank you for taking that little moment to think about individually how we move from agreement to alignment around something that's pretty challenging, which is managing our career paths as we go forward. Let's talk a little bit about teams because you lead a team that has done some really ambitious things over the last, did you say 15 years that you've been at innovation? Yeah. Yeah, fifteen years, yeah. And speaker-1 (08:13) Yeah. speaker-0 (08:38) I've had a peek under the covers at some of the things that you've been up to over the last few years. And I know that you have set some bold ambitions that have been realized. And also there have been some things that have been a struggle to follow through on. And I'm curious when you reflect on for yourself with your leadership team the difference between agreeing that something's a good idea and being able to get aligned and do it together. What are some of the things that you try to make sure you do with your team? to get them past agreement and into alignment on some of these big things that you've tackled. And would love it if maybe you share it through the lens of an example. speaker-1 (09:16) Yeah, for sure. You're right. I mean, we've had I I think a couple what I would call transformational initiatives that are multi-year. And I think first off, I'd like to say it certainly wasn't done perfectly. We've got lots of learning opportunities. you've helped me and and as I pass the wisdom you've provided me on to my team, you've helped me substantially and In navigating through some of those pieces. So thanks for that. The big one that I think about is just our digital transformation. And, you know, some of the things that that around agreement versus alignment, especially when you're in the middle of it or you're looking back, cause we're we're not that it's ever done, but we're pretty much through the a lot of the build out with our transformation. You can start to see the scenarios where, yeah, we just didn't spend enough time. getting the you know the agreement and alignment as we move forward. And so some of the things that I think about is making sure that initially you spend enough time that you have a strong team to be able to navigate in a multi-year transformation. Because without that, that foundation, it's going to be pretty tough. And again, some of the things that I've learned more recently is, you know, it's okay to have some conflict, especially early on. I think about things like rather than creating perfect high curves, just make sure everything is everything or people are moving in a similar direction. So we've kind of redubbed the whole notion in the agile framework. They talk about high curves, what we talk about are defined curves. Because we don't want it to be more you know, top-down type directional. We want to say, here's some. Defining curbs that we need to pay attention to and navigate within. And that's been very helpful to have that clarity up front. Because then, you know, as we start to see maybe some misalignment, we can start to go back to some of that agreement that we had early on. And you can do that if you have a strong team. So personally, I'm I'm one that tends to avoid conflict likely. but more recently I've understood the beauty of having like positive interaction, positive friction, positive conflict. So you can really get to the to the root of things. And that's been very helpful. And I can think about some of the examples in our organization where we we did have that conversation. It really helped us move forward, especially when times get more difficult or delayed. It allowed us to, you know, leverage some of that early work so that we can get strong alignment moving forward. speaker-0 (11:55) Yeah, you I have a friend Hillary who talks about fruitful friction and how in the friction you can create something better than you can if everybody just stays in their own corners or if everything just stays very polite. And I think that's a really interesting concept that in the conflict or in the friction, you can come to better alignment if it's done well. And obviously with respect for the humans involved and Yeah. with with the common goal of getting to a better place. speaker-1 (12:27) Yeah, I totally agree. Like I I hear my peers and in conversations talk about the, you know, the the blow up they had last week at the executive level or the dust up. And and I think about, geez, we don't tend to have those innovation, but knowing what I know now, we probably should add more. And not not like you said, disrespectful. situations, but real solid professional conversations where people have the ability to have a safe environment to have those conversations. And that's something if I were to go back in time, you know, in some things that initiatives that I can think of, we probably should have had more of those, more transparent conversations. speaker-0 (13:06) Yeah, and do them upfront. As well as on these multi-year initiatives, do them frequently, right? Yeah. I think that's the other thing is we I don't know if you've noticed this, I've seen this with other clients that in a multi-year initiative, it's easy programmatically to get into a place where from a governance perspective, everybody shows up with their status report and everybody's green, maybe a little yellow. Nobody wants to say that they're red, right? And so we kind of like punch the ticket for status, but we don't have the great deep conversations along the way that tell us like are we really collectively getting where we want to go? And so disrupting that pattern of behavior around I'm just gonna manage my part and stay in green or maybe like can you know cop to a little bit of yellow. but I'm gonna actually come to my colleagues and we're gonna have potentially a difficult conversation about how things are really going. If you were doing that more regularly, then the transformation I think has a more a higher likelihood of success. Have you seen that unfold on some of these multi year transformations where maybe those conversations along the way are not as authentic as they need to be? speaker-1 (14:18) Yeah, I would agree. I think again it goes back to, you know, in a lot of cases, people aren't consciously misaligned. It's it's just inherent in you know in the nature of an organization or individuals. We're all humans. so it's sometimes difficult to to recognize, geez, we have some misalignment here and we need to we need to have a huddle or a a conversation. so I think that's part of the art. in all this as well. But I think if you have some standard rules of engagement along a multi-year or larger initiative, I think that that's that's very helpful. And you know, things like making sure that leaders aren't doing too much you know, protecting of their own space or team, and that compromises, you know, the overall program or initiative. you know, having those kind of conversations, having those kind of like a almost like a formal, informal dashboard to understand some of those those components because I think they're gonna be your reality. So you might as well address them early on. And when you have that clarity and that commitment up front and along through the program. And that's where I think some of the program managers can really identify some of that and bring it, you know, to the board or whatever, whatever mechanism you're using. We use a lot of, you know, KanBam boards in DevOps. So it allows us to bring some of these blockers to the conversation and then really have a conversation about it. speaker-0 (15:46) Yeah, I think those systems and processes are great for helping create the space for people to talk about the hard things. You you also mentioned a mindset in there, which I think is a introduces risk into transformation, which is the protectionist mindset. I'm going to protect my team from this transformation until they need to be involved. Right. Like there's I don't know, there's a whole thing that happens there. When you see leaders bringing in that really protectionist mindset into the transformation arena. What do you what do you do to help them break that down a little bit and to help them open up to the idea that we all need to be on this journey together? speaker-1 (16:27) Yeah, part of it I think is just reverting back to kind of the the agreed to mandate of the initiative, right? So some of the commitment statements that we had, some of the conversations, you know, the goal that it's enterprise-wide, not necessarily team focused. I think that's helpful. and then I think the other one is just not approaching it around. in a negative way, but just approaching it in more of a how do we negotiate through this? Right. So because the reality is that it's not like teams that are creating blockers or misalignment are inventing some of this stuff. It's real. So how do you enter into a conversation where you can negotiate resources, time, money, scope, so that we can ensure that the enterprise program is successful? At the same time, we're not You know, we're not taking away, you know, all of the components to make the team successful that's having the alignment issue. So I think there's I think there's a few ways that you can address it, but I think the biggest one is just is just having the conversation. Because a lot of times it doesn't happen, especially if some of the voices are a little bit stronger than the others. So again, it's back to that team dynamic that you really have to have foundational right at the beginning so that those conversations can happen throughout. the prolonged initiative. speaker-0 (17:52) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, you as as you know, right, you're you're speaking my language there. And I do think there is a team dynamic that has to emerge around that to successfully navigate a transformation. And you've touched on a couple of things. One is clarity. So clarity around what the transformation is and what it's going to take. And another is respect. So being able to have these disagreements with some respect for not some with full respect for the individual. but also an understanding of the realities that people are facing. So, you know, if the systems or processes or budget or time isn't there, how do you have that conversation rather than trying to hide it in s in different ways, which is that protectionist mindset I think that people bring in sometimes. And then I think there's also this opportunity for from a leadership perspective to have a group dynamic that says, you know, we start with we're all in this together. And then we deal with the unique aspects of how this is impacting different parts of the business. But everybody understanding that is so important and it only happens in conversation. And I don't know about you, Dan, but I get so frustrated when I hear the I spend too much time in meetings complaint because that's where that's where it ha that's where leadership happens, right? Is in conversation with other people. And when you're going through a massive transformation, you're gonna be in a lot of meetings. I'm wondering when you think about your experiences with some of the transformations you've led innovation through, what do you say to people when they say, Gosh damn, we're just in too many meetings? speaker-1 (19:27) Yeah, I think it's again, it's back to the reminder of you know what I do is I talk about let's say this was twenty-five years ago and we're all in the same building. You know, and and I know now the technology can actually be a bit of a dual-edged sword. it's almost too easy to meet, and that's something you have to be respectful of. But if we were back 25 years ago, we're all in the same meeting, we would have these collision points, we would have these meetings and sessions, sometimes formal. and informal. So I think we need to make sure that that's that's respected and honored, you know, in today's environment, especially when your workforce is across the country. So I I do like I I try to balance and and hear the the concern about too many meetings. But that's where I you know talk about good meeting hygiene. make sure there's clarity, takeaways, accountability we're not so we're not bringing everyone into a meeting and make it long and large. We want to make sure that they're actually creating value and benefit. So sometimes it's not the frequency, it's what you're doing when you're there. And so I that can always be a way to get to kind of bridge that concern that happens. 'Cause I know when that you know, when I leave one of those meetings where I've got some takeaways and it was well run and it it it maybe even ended early, then that was you know, positive experience. But I know our organization can can get into this trap where we're we're bringing everyone together and it's it's it's not guided well. But I would agree when it comes to these initiatives, there's n there's really no substitute for the, you know, the meetings that you need to have these various check-ins and have that that face-to-face or video to video experience. speaker-0 (21:15) I think it's such a good call out that a lot of what used to get taken care of in a hallway conversation now requires a meeting. So it does feel like there's more and more formal meetings, but those how do you have those informal moments in today's work world reality, which is that we're not necessarily in a shared space. So that's I I think a really interesting question to think about because alignment happens in what I call small inconsequential moments, right? The conversations that you have in the moment. So how do we How we find that magic almost? But you also mentioned meeting hygiene, which I think is also so important. One of the things that I think is going to be true for the future, and it's true right now, but you know, we have some people who've been in the workforce for a long time that maybe haven't experienced it, is that enterprise level leaders, CEOs like yourself, your direct reports, people who are very senior levels in organizations, they must be great meeting hosts. They have to be able to facilitate a conversation. They have to be able to govern, you know, kind of how people participate. And they can't just show up. They actually have to be able to hold that space. I think that is a leadership skill that probably requires some investment in a lot of organizations today because enterprise leaders in particular cannot afford to not be great at hosting a meeting. Wondering when you think about your reflecting on your own team and your own experiences, how do you see that skill set? And do you think that's an opportunity for people to strengthen some of the ways that they build alignment? speaker-1 (22:51) Yeah, I I would say for sure. yeah, I I think when I when I think of some of the most effective meetings, again a lot of them are in person. There's whiteboards, there's people standing up, you know, drawing on the whiteboard, sitting down, modifying what I just drew, like that interaction. And that can be replicated in a virtual environment too. So we've we've tried to use some of those tools. but I again I think it's incumbent upon whether it's the product owner or the scrum master, in our case, the leader that, you know, that needs to be present facilitating a lot of that and calling out those who aren't maybe contributing, not in a disrespectful way, but just say, hey, you know, hey Julie, what do you think about that? I know that this is your, you know, this is your lane, so would love to hear about what you're thinking. Like I think that's an an art but a skill that's required as well. Otherwise you're meeting for the sake of meeting and it doesn't it doesn't bear any fruit. So I I would totally agree on refining and that skill. But I I don't know if it's like again back to that growth mindset. I don't think it's one of those skills that only a few people were born with. I think it it's something you can learn and you can develop. and facilit and that facilitation piece comes in handy both even at work and even at home. Like one of the things that we get a lot of enjoyment out, well at least the parents do, Lorene and I, is that we run c mini planning sessions with our kids. And and so I I borrow the the framework that we use at work and then I map it out, you know, on you know, we have this glass armoire and we map it out like what's important to you from a educational perspective, from a health perspective. And that that that facilitation often resides in enterprise, but I think it's a a skill that everyone can learn and embrace for multiple different multiple different uses. speaker-0 (24:52) Yeah. I love the idea of creating alignment in the family as well as at work. Yeah. And I really appreciate your call out that tools and resources can really help you, especially if it's not a natural skill that you have around hosting these conversations or bringing organizations, teams, families through them. Look for those resources that are available to you and use them in different ways because the more you practice with them, the better you'll be. speaker-1 (25:19) Exactly. Yeah. speaker-0 (25:21) Yeah. Well, Dan, when you think about some of the characteristics of leaders who are really good at building alignment, what are some of the individual mindsets or group dynamics that you look for them to create as you tackle some of these big transformations? Are there any particular things that stand out to you about the people you've seen who are really good at doing that? speaker-1 (25:43) you know, maybe this is pretty standard, but I think I think those who are who can create that environment of trust and I'll use the word vulnerability is super important because like if you're a kind of a dominating character in a room, it really does almost exacerbate some of the things you don't want. People who are tend to be quiet will be even more quiet. know people that don't like conflict will will avoid it. So if you can if you can create a an environment in the room in the discussion that that creates kind of a safe area that people can feel vulnerable and not say anything silly and that's okay. I think that's that's crucial in no matter what you know matter what you're talking about, whether that's personal or or in the professional space. We use a lot of the work that Carol Dweck does around growth mindset. I think that's sometimes misunderstood. People think, well, growth mindset is just well grow like you know, growth pattern or grow the business. But in a lot of cases it's just accepting that that you and I can learn something new. You and I c it's okay if we don't know how, you know, this works. So again, if you can create that environment, that growth mindset, I think it'll be important and it helps in business so much. So I at at home I see it a fair bit with myself. It's not like you have you you shouldn't have a closed mindset. I mean everyone does in some components. I see it in myself, I see it in our kids when you know, when they go into a a final exam with a pretty high average, they come out with a one, you know, lower and it's like, Well, how did that happen? Well, you know, it was a tough exam, but I was above class average. Like That to me is an example in the workspace where, you know, we had kind of an average year. Yeah, but we were better than, you know, the financial institution down the road. And so that that's something that you really have to address quickly because you can always find someone that's not doing as well as you are. But what you want to do is aspire to where you want to go as an organization and create that peer group that you want to compare yourself to. But that's a constant thing. I think the other one is. Is I don't think alignment is a once and done event, right? Like you can do that early on and you can talk about clarity and alignment and and commitment. And then it's not like you should stop talking about it. Like that's something that should continue throughout, especially when you're in larger initiatives. It's a full-time kind of thing you've got to pay attention to. Sometimes you don't have to worry about it as much, and sometimes you really have to roll up your sleeves. work on it. So I think that's another piece, but that takes a lot of courage to call that misalignment out. And sometimes you'll call it out and you're actually wrong. Right. And and I think that's another important thing because some sometimes and I'll use myself as an example, I'll go, geez, that doesn't actually I'm not going to say it because maybe Julie is a line and just not I just have it wrong. So I think those are some of the things that I look for or that I've witnessed that really help either create success or or not as much success in some of these initiatives. speaker-0 (28:59) Yeah, I think that's those are all really insightful, Dan. And I especially appreciate you shining a light on the reality that alignment is not one and done. Doesn't happen in a catalytic event. Like you can go to your two day off site and you know get there and then you have to keep working at it. You have to keep working at it every day, every week, every month, because it is not you're asking people to work differently than how they used to work, and that's really hard to do. Yeah. Yeah. I can't tell you how many people just want to get aligned and be done with it. And so speaker-1 (29:34) Lamin laminate it and then it's theirs shall it shall be, right? speaker-0 (29:37) Right, exactly. If it's laminated, it's done, right? I like that. But yeah, I think that that's so smart for people to to remember and to take away from this that you cannot assume that because you got aligned in a moment that you're aligned forever. And that's true of us in our lives too, right? Like we we can all what is it? I think it's January eighth or something is National Quitters Day. The second Friday in January is like we all start our New Year's resolutions feeling really good about things and then by two weeks in we're we're kinda done with it. speaker-1 (30:10) And that's January eighth. speaker-0 (30:11) Well, it's the second Friday of January. So I think this year it might have been January eighth. But anyway. yeah, it's like very consistent data says that around two weeks in people are done with their New Year's resolutions. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's the same at work, right? Our best of intentions can easily fall by the wayside a couple of weeks later because real life takes over and business as usual takes over and we, you know, short term goals take over and we forget speaker-1 (30:24) Yeah, that makes sense. speaker-0 (30:40) what we were so committed to a couple of weeks ago with the team. speaker-1 (30:44) Yeah, totally agree. speaker-0 (30:45) Yeah, yeah. So we've talked in about the importance of clarity and being in conversation and finding those really generative meeting spaces. We've also talked about bringing a growth mindset and being always willing to stay curious about what's possible and also what's going on with other people. And then we also brought in this idea of friction and really constructive dissent or We can call it conflict, but how do you have those really deep conversations that get down into what is causing misalignment or what might cause misalignment on this transformation or in this work that we're doing together? And I think a lot of that conflict comes from individual mindsets and group dynamics and systems and processes can help support it, but you've got to have the right attitude coming in with that growth mindset and that curiosity piece. To really work through the differences of opinion or the differences of experience or the realities, the hard realities of things like budget and people and time and capabilities in order to successfully drive the transformation. So we've covered a lot of ground here. Is there anything else that comes to mind to you that you think would be helpful for people to think about if they are tasked with a multi-year transformation where they need to get their organization from point A to point B? And it needs to be aligned at an enterprise level. speaker-1 (32:11) Yeah, think you touched on it in your recap a bit, but maybe we didn't talk enough about the clarity. Again, back to your your your description of someone who can do well navigating a meeting or or an initiative. The other the other muscle I think that is required, and again, it's one that I want to build out better is is ensuring that that clarity is apparent. So once you have that clarity, then then again, where I fall short is not getting the the formal commitment to that. And then the third element I think that is so important is the accountability and and then holding each other accountable to it. And so and I think again, that's just a problem in project management, it's it's just a standard language and it's it's how it works. But in a lot of cases where I see initiatives fall short is that we lose sight of that. We didn't get the clarity. And clarity doesn't mean that you say it one way and and everyone shall understand. Clarity means, you know, being transparent and s in ensuring that everyone understands it how they understand it. Because, you know, the way I might articulate something just doesn't make sense for, you know, a another individual or team. So I think it's important to get That communication and continue, especially early on, overcommunicate the essence of why we're doing this. So if you have that, if you're confident in that, then I think the real trick now is to make sure that that commitment is supported with accountability. And I think that gets you out of a lot of log jams, right? So when you when you know the resources required of the major initiatives, then you can start to have conversations about well, you're accountable to this. what are some trade-offs we need to talk about in order for you to be successful on supporting the enterprise initiative? So those components I think are so important, especially when they're larger and multi-year. Because as you said earlier, people just get back to their day-to-day and and it used to be the the top thing on their inbox and now it just kind of becomes well I'll have to I'll get back to Dan eventually. And and so that's the that constant you know reminder that we need to have as an organization on those multi-year initiatives. So that I think is so important. And I think a lot of cases it's a part of the framework, but it you know it involves people. So therefore it does demand more than just assuming that it will the clarity will stay, you know, the accountability will stay. It it does It does take nurturing throughout the process. speaker-0 (34:55) I think accountability is such an important part of success and transformation. I do think, and you're touching on it a little bit, that sometimes we over-index to systems and processes to force accountability when accountability is also fueled by individual mindsets and group dynamics. So how we create the space for accountability to exist, I think is is really important. And you and I have had a lot of conversations about accountability over the years. And how tricky it can be because when you hold people accountable to things that they have not succeeded with, it can create conflict, it can create an uncomfortable conversation. And sometimes we shy away from that. But holding other people accountable is part of the job of leadership. And it's one of the one of the really challenging ones for people. And I'm wondering as you reflect on your experiences with this let's call it mushy space of accountability that we want to have be really rigorous. What are some of the mindsets do you think that get in the way of leaders holding others accountable and also holding themselves accountable? We think about things like, you know, conflict avoidance or shame or embarrassment or aggravation. I don't know. There's a lot that comes into it. speaker-1 (36:13) Yeah, for sure. And I can speak for myself, and this is where you've helped me i in this area, and that is just conflict avoidance. Right. And and it was the aha moment for me was was that if I'm not having those conversations, then my role as a leader isn't being upheld bo and it's also being diminished. It cause the people that look to their manager, their supervisor. are looking for those conversations. And and I had it wrong for a long time, thinking that, geez, you know, they may not want to have the those conversations. They might avoid having one on ones because they don't want to hear about it. But in the end, it's really important to have them. And that's really one of those missing gaps in a full, robust, healthy relationship with with your teams. So yeah, I think I think a big part of it is just avoiding avoiding that conflict and and that's where I can reflect on at least for myself is that. And then the other one is just you you're empathetic a bit because you know that in a lot of cases people don't want to miss deadlines. And you just have to remind yourself that, well, maybe there's some a path here, maybe there's a negotiation, you know, some sort of way we can reduce work over here to allow them to be successful on holding up their part of the initiative. And a lot of times that's the case. So it's not about coming down heavy on people. It's just about how do we figure out a path? I'm here to help you and the organization figure out a path here, not, you know, just identify the issue. Let's find a solution. speaker-0 (37:48) Yeah. And I really appreciate that about how you orient towards leadership and towards accountability is that it isn't just about saying to somebody, well, you failed, and I'm holding you accountable to that. It's about this isn't working and how do we solve for that together without shying away from saying this isn't working. Like the the results are not what they need to be. And there has to be a solution that we can work through or come up with together in order to make sure that you can be held accountable to this going forward. I think you have a really great orientation towards that as a leader. speaker-1 (38:24) Yeah, well, and it just reminded me what you just said, just reminding me even this morning. We like we have a daily stand up with our executive team. And I I thought he did a really good job identifying some blockers. But now when you were talking, I was thinking, but I didn't I didn't do the other part, which isn't no, how can we or or even myself help eliminate those blockers? speaker-0 (38:46) Well, you know. speaker-1 (38:48) know, it's just something that reminded me. So I have some work to do after we're done. speaker-0 (38:52) There you go. A worthy ask for you, Dan. Yeah, yeah. Well, this has been great, Dan. We've covered a lot of ground, a lot of great tips for people who are looking to create alignment, especially during times of big transformation. I'm curious, we always ask everybody at the end two questions. one is just if there's like a roundup of hot tips for people, things that you want to make sure that they take away, that they are gonna bring into their leadership as they try to build alignment for their team. speaker-1 (38:54) Yeah. speaker-0 (39:19) And what would you say are the top three, four, five things for them to really focus on? speaker-1 (39:24) Yeah, I'm just thinking of the two major initiatives we have. One is digital transformation, and the other one is we became Canada's third credit union to become a federal credit union. And all were multi-year initiatives. So some of the things I think about is that you know, there's lots of scenarios where I I what I know now, I wish I would have known a few years ago to to maybe start the the initiative better. And that is creating that foundational piece for the team, getting that that trust that you will require because you know it's going to be a longer haul and you know it's going to get difficult. So you need that that relationship, that trust. And a lot of times that means getting really vulnerable. Not that you have to share every dark secret, but when I've when I see the successful ones, I think that's where we really had a lot of good foundational elements. And without that foundation, it's pretty tough. I think from there it's really about having the clarity and the commitment and then in in some cases having the the conflict, that healthy conflict, so you can get everything out on the table. 'Cause I think a lot of times where the misalignment comes are the things you didn't talk about and they they find their way into the the initiative, you know, six months later or or beyond. So I think that that wide open A dump of everything allows you to see everything and then and then organize it so that you can s move forward effectively. We talked about it already, but one of the learnings that that we have in our organization is alignment isn't a single event at the very beginning. It's it's a big part of it. And maybe project or program leads have a different term for it, but if they don't, they should have it as a part of of of their framework that you're gonna have to along the way make sure that you're always addressing appropriate alignment. And when I mean it by appropriate, it's not like it has to be exactly this. It's that's where those defined curbs come into play that I was talking about. not high curbs, but defined and because you want everyone moving the same direction, not perfectly in one line. Like again, that's that's a bit of a an art as well and good good program leads are Are well established to do that. So those are the things that I that I think about. And again, I'm beating up on myself or maybe our organization a bit, is that we don't celebrate the mistakes or the misses as much. And we certainly don't celebrate the milestones as we should. And you know, that's been brought you know to our attention, and we try our best, but a lot of times you you don't seem to find time to celebrate because you're on to the next thing, right? Or the next milestone has started and geez, you got to get to that. So there's two things. make it okay to make mistakes within reason and then and then celebrate the milestones and the wins. And I think that's something that that probably would have helped us a bit more in one in some of these multi-year initiatives. speaker-0 (42:30) Well, those are great learnings and takeaways. And I know that people are going to get a lot of value out of that. So thank you for that roundup. And I love your push around, you know, misalignment happens with the things that went unsaid, the things we didn't talk about that pop up later. I think that's a great reminder and the f you know having that good, strong foundation to build on as well as staying attentive to alignment over the duration. And I really appreciate you rounding that out with celebrating both what you learn and what you do well. I think we do miss that in the rush to get on to the next thing. So taking some time to reflect and to cement the learnings and to cement the successes in the I'll call it the folklore of the company, I think is so important. And we do lose sight of that. So that's a great push for everybody as well who's involved in one of these multi-year big efforts at an enterprise level. We do have, Dan, one last question that we'd like to ask everyone, and this is a dream along with me question. Which is if you could get any group of people, whether it's your team or your company or Canada or your family or the world, whatever group it is that you're involved with, if you could get a group of people aligned to accomplish something together, what would that thing be? speaker-1 (43:43) As I mentioned earlier, I'm 30 years in the credit union sector. And for those who aren't aware of the Canadian landscape where the Canadian financial services sector has an oligopoly with six six major banks, and then there's the rest of us. And we we're a very small component. And I think what has happened over the years is that we've really gotten into almost like revert and combat mode versus taking a more disruptive So my alignment that I think would be great before I you know retire would be would be to to get the the non-olligopoly. So whether that's credit unions or even fintechs or new entrants to get them on the offense. Because I think that's the the only way that we're gonna we're gonna be successful. So you you either need to disrupt Or you'll be disrupted. And I think if we can get alignment on that, then I think we'll need to, you know, build out a different set of courage stances, a set of a different set of mindset. But if we can get there, then I think we we do have the secret sauce. We have a lot of the components, the ingredients. We just need to get them together and move forward. So to me that would be an amazing alignment piece, but in a lot of cases we just don't have that. We we have a lot of misalignment. in our sector. And and it's un super unfortunate because I think we're missing a big opportunity. And what's going to happen is the fintechs will come in and the big techs will come in and and wedge us even further out of out of sustainability. so that that would be a big one for me. speaker-0 (45:23) Yeah. Well, I know that you and your team are working on some of those things and I'm excited to see where you go with it. For those of you who aren't familiar with the credit union industry, I've had the opportunity to do some work in it as well. And I think, Dan, one of the things that's always so impressive to me is that success in the credit union world looks like helping members really to be successful with their financial lives. And so it's a great call to action to say, how do you come together as an industry to do more and better in that space? speaker-1 (45:52) Yeah. I agree. And you know, again, we're not gonna get it right or perfect all the time, but it's that we just we have to move forward. The and the the one the last thing that I think of as far as what you need to be okay with in these in these alignment pieces or these initiatives that the project team for our digital or for our federal continuance made a video And it started off with Jabet, who was our program lead. Of course, he's like 30 years old and he's talking about, okay, and you know, here's the dates, here's the milestones, we'll be federal by this time. But of course, we we missed our our our milestones substantially for various reasons. But by the end of the video, he was he was in disguise, he was 150 years old talking to the project team. And And I just that was I think a good example of of the humor that's required too in a lot of cases in organizations because sometimes it's all business like and if you so if you can have some fun like that, I think that creates the vents that both leaders and and others require to be able to be okay with, you know, not missing things substantially, but be okay with the fact that that stuff happens and sometimes you just don't get it perfect. speaker-0 (47:10) Yeah. And I really, you know, you said it earlier, alignment is not about being in lockstep or hitting every date or being perfect. It's about staying consistent with where you're headed and making the adjustments along the way as you go. So I really appreciate that. And I'm going to take that also as a final call for everyone to remember to bring some levity into the workplace. It's okay. And it actually goes a long way towards creating shared memories of how you navigated a tough experience. And so I really applaud your team member on that. And I think it's a great way to end this conversation around how do you move into alignment around big issues and big efforts. One of those things is to not lose sight of the fact that you know, at the end of the day, it's okay to have some fun with it too. speaker-1 (47:56) Exactly. Yeah. speaker-0 (47:58) Yeah. Well, Dan, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you. I really have appreciated all of your insights. I know our listeners will as well. And I just want to say how much I appreciate you and your leadership and all that you're doing in Canada for the credit union space. I think it's been really impressive to be an onlooker for that journey for the last couple of years. And I'm looking forward to seeing where you guys go next. speaker-1 (48:20) Yeah, well and and thank you so much for including myself and innovation into your you know, into your framework too, because again, we're pretty proud of the things that we're doing and we don't ever have everything right, but if you know, if people can learn from us and we can learn from them, we're we're gonna do great things. So thank you so much. speaker-0 (48:38) Yeah. For all of our listeners, just a reminder, if you enjoy this episode, be sure to like it, comment on it, and share it. And we will see you next time on the failure gap and at Kerakins Group, as we like to say, to go fast, go alone, to go far, go together, to go far fast, get aligned. Thanks for joining us.