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The State of Trump’s Immigration Policy: What Employers MUST Know · Border Banter: An Immigration Podcast

0:01
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Border Banter, an immigration podcast brought to you by Green Isbigo, where Canadian and U.S.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: immigration gets real.
0:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Sonia Siddu.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: And if you think immigration is just forms, checklists, and government websites, think again.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: This is only a part of the story.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: This podcast is about what happens beyond the programs, the patterns we see, the challenges clients face, and the decisions that don't always make it into case law.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: Each episode, I sit down with other immigration lawyers here at Green Spiegel, talk through real issues, judgment calls, share perspectives, and yes, a little bit of behind-the-scenes factor.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: Because immigration isn't just about rules, it's about strategy, timing, and real people navigating the law.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: So let's get started.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: What employers are getting wrong, what enforcement actually looks like, and what every company should do before the government comes knocking.
1:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm Sonia Sadu, and I'm joined by Jonathan Grove from Green and Spiegel, U.S.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: And this is Border Vactor.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: So thank you, Jonathan, for joining me.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: You actually came in from the U.S.
1:21
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: And you are a managing partner in our U.S.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: office.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I'm happy to be here in Toronto.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit about the U.S.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: office.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: What do we do out there?
1:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, the United States office is a full service immigration firm focused on U.S.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: immigration law.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: We really do everything.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I think that's one of the things that's special about the offices.
1:43
SPEAKER_02: We have expertise in all areas of immigration law.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: And then within those areas of immigration law, we have departments that handle a variety of different types of matters, but really have a specialization.
1:55
SPEAKER_02: So, for example, we do a lot of work with hospitals and universities, and we have a team that handle that.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: We do a lot of work with global expansion of individuals or companies that are looking to set a foothold in the United States.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: We work with tech companies regarding your sort of STEM workers.
2:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we do a lot of work with professional athletes.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: So, really, rather than handling like a specific case type, we do it by department and function.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: And probably, you know, even though it's a smaller part of our practice, some of the most rewarding work we do are with families and individuals.
2:31
SPEAKER_02: And that's especially important today in the Trump administration and what we're seeing.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: And that's a good point, I think, to um highlight is it's not all corporate.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: You do family and individual immigration.
2:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, correct.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Jonathan, do you know anything about Canadian immigration?
2:48
SPEAKER_02: Do I know anything about Canadian immigration?
2:49
SPEAKER_02: I know enough about Canadian immigration to call you guys.
2:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, I I think fundamentally the U.S.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: attorneys understand how to issue spot when something could be beneficial to use the Canadian system.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: I think that's one of the things that really sets Green and Spiegel apart from other firms.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: You know, when one avenue closes within the United States, like let's say we're struggling with H1B visas and numerical limitations, having the ability to call the firm in Canada to look at potentially like an intercompany transferee or a high-skilled worker visa has become invaluable to our clients.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: And it's really that cross-border expertise that's something that I not only like tout to potential clients, but really am very proud of when it comes to the practice.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think it's vice versa.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: This way, when we hear we hear US, it's not we don't get scared, right?
3:39
SPEAKER_01: We're like, hey, we have a team, we know who to go to, you know, send an email to Jonathan here, talk to him.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so today I want to talk about what's going on in the US, a little overview, but really when it comes to employers.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: So I want to see what the new reality for employers is.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: So what I want to start with is if you were a CEO in America today, what would be keeping you awake at night?
4:01
SPEAKER_02: Fundamentally, Sonia, businesses crave predictability.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: You know, when you're looking at making decisions, whether it be capital expansion of an enterprise or investing in expansion of staff or bringing somebody in with a particular expertise that is really needed for the business, you want to know the outcome.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: And what's very fascinating about the Trump administration and what they're doing is fundamentally the laws have not really changed, Sonia.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: It's pretty much the way it's always been.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we haven't really had a substantial update to our immigration system since 1986, further refined in the 90s, but it's been 30 plus years since we really had any fundamental changes.
4:45
SPEAKER_02: But the way that the law is interpreted is modified by each administration.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, it's become very hyperbolic.
4:55
SPEAKER_02: So when we had the Biden administration and they were pretty much promoting STEM in emerging technology fields, and it became quite easy to get permanent residency, with the Trump administration and this sort of xenophobic approach, it's gone completely to the other side.
5:11
SPEAKER_02: So things that were approved two years ago are being met with a tremendous amount of resistance.
5:17
SPEAKER_02: And it's that interplay that's created a heavy degree of unpredictability.
5:23
SPEAKER_02: And with that unpredictability, it causes a lot of challenges for businesses.
5:28
SPEAKER_02: So when you look at things like tariffs and hyperbolic those are, where it's 0%, 10%, 100%, and you're forced to react and what's real and what's not real, it's not too dissimilar to what's happening with immigration.
5:43
SPEAKER_02: Now, a lot of the play with immigration is about the stuff that really feels humanitarian.
5:49
SPEAKER_02: A lot of the play is about individuals who might be picked up at the border, or those right now who are facing challenges at airports.
5:57
SPEAKER_02: But that's not to say that the business community is not also experiencing a tremendous amount of unupheaval and unpredictability.
6:06
SPEAKER_02: And when you are a small business in particular, or an emerging technology company, and you're very heavily reliant on foreign national talent to provide these expertise, that's something that I think is becoming so problematic for leadership that it requires additional thought and effort that didn't used to have to be placed.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that takes me like 20 years ago, immigration was largely an HR issue, and now it's becoming a boardroom or a C-suite issue.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100%.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: Right.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: And we continuously hear this new era of immigration enforcement.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: What are you seeing in regards to that for company?
6:48
SPEAKER_02: So that's the other side of it, Sonia.
6:51
SPEAKER_02: I mean, so like we talk about like the challenges in obtaining work authorization and you know, processing visas and permanent residency.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: There's this huge sort of aspect to it where compliance has become a massive part of this particular administration's agenda.
7:08
SPEAKER_02: You know, whether that be targeted enforcement actions where they're looking for a specific individual and disrupting the regular course of business, or it's a full-scale raid, which we saw a lot of instances of when we had these city surges in New York and Chicago and tragically Minneapolis.
7:27
SPEAKER_02: You also see a lot of issues when it comes to compliance stuff with like I-9s, which is an employment verification mechanism that all employers are required to do.
7:36
SPEAKER_02: It's a mounting amount of pressure on the compliance side of things.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: And it really came to a head if you look at what happened in Georgia with the Hyundai battery facility.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: You know, there was a bad actor subcontractor on that location that had been under investigation going back to the Biden administration.
7:54
SPEAKER_02: The Trump administration properly obtained warrants, went into the location.
7:59
SPEAKER_02: But because individuals fled from that location, they decided to then take a larger scale approach to the entire enforcement activity.
8:08
SPEAKER_02: And before you know it, 500 Korean business people on L visas and visitor visas are all of a sudden being detained for five days and shipped back to Korea.
8:17
SPEAKER_02: This became a you know a real problem because it went up against what commerce was trying to do with tariffs and encouraging manufacturing and businesses to return to the United States.
8:27
SPEAKER_02: Now, the result of this caused the administration to really backpedal.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: And it did ultimately end up in a more clear understanding of what activities you can engage in as a visitor.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: Like they actually made a modification to what is allowed as a visitor in the United States and introduced something called skilled trainer, which we didn't have before.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: But the fallout from this was tremendous.
8:49
SPEAKER_02: You know, if you're a foreign corporation and you're looking to invest in the United States, and in this instance, spending billions of dollars and creating dozens of jobs for US workers to all of a sudden have to deal with the threat and specter of investigation is highly problematic and very challenging.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: Companies that are established, their hiring processes.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: What they're doing in terms of compliance and how they're thinking of expanding even within the US is changing because they're worried about all this stuff.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's remarkable how much of a consideration it has to become.
9:27
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, fundamentally, these are the kind of questions that we're being asked.
9:32
SPEAKER_02: You know, more and more about immigration law and what our job is, is about strategic guidance and how to deal with these situations, how to make sure that your compliance paperwork is aligned, how to insulate your workers from potential problems by really being very strict on entry protocols.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: And that's different from what you referred to earlier, with HR being primarily the engine that was driving these.
9:59
SPEAKER_02: We're now dealing more and more with legal departments.
10:01
SPEAKER_02: We're dealing more and more with compliance.
10:03
SPEAKER_02: And as I alluded to earlier, you know, Green and Spiegel, the way we're structured, we have a department that does compliance work.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: And believe it or not, that is the fastest growing department within the practice.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: Are you seeing there's particular industries that are feeling more pressure with all this?
10:20
SPEAKER_02: Well, that kind of uh brings us to sort of a secondary part of it.
10:24
SPEAKER_02: Like those that deal with more low-skilled workers are under a tremendous amount of pressure right now.
10:28
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you're familiar with this, Sonya, but we have this thing called temporary protective status.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: And TPS is something that the Trump administration has been trying to curtail pretty much since they came into power.
10:41
SPEAKER_02: Just recently, the Supreme Court upheld the ability for the Trump administration to cancel TPS.
10:47
SPEAKER_02: One of the nationalities that's affected by this is Haitian.
10:51
SPEAKER_02: There's 350,000 Haitians in the United States providing work to a variety of companies in a variety of industries.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: Their status expired on July 24th.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: All of those workers are without status.
11:08
SPEAKER_02: And companies are being faced with a very hard decision, which is do we continue to employ these people because the business needs it?
11:18
SPEAKER_02: Or do we comply with the law and have them stop working to the detriment of the overall enterprise?
11:25
SPEAKER_02: And I think the effect that this has is greatly misunderstood by the administration, because ultimately, when you have a reduction in force, you have a reduction in production.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: And that leads to higher prices because demand goes up.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: And if one of the primary principles of the Trump administration is to create more affordability, curtailing low-skilled workers, which impact the supply chain itself is going to have the opposite effect of what they're trying to achieve.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I think that this is one of those things that is very complex because what you do with here doesn't necessarily immediately come to mind as to how it's going to affect things over here.
12:14
SPEAKER_02: And these unintended consequences of their policies are actually starting to really have economic impact on the United States.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: And which is funny because you're trying to build the economy and you're building this whole US, but you're taking away what's driving the economy to be built.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: 100%.
12:36
SPEAKER_02: And that in the the that in and of itself is the dichotomy that we're seeing.
12:41
SPEAKER_02: It's almost like there's this internal argument between the desires of the commerce department and generating business in the United States and the immigration hawks that want to curtail the foreign national population.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that balance is very hard.
13:01
SPEAKER_02: Fundamentally, I think most Americans, when they voted for Trump, those that did vote for Trump and they heard about immigration, they thought that they were going to be going after these like real bad actors, people who entered the country without status, those that have committed crimes.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: You know, that was sort of the messaging that was absorbed.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: But the way the administration is operating is more like a blanket rejection of immigration across the board to curtail the amount of foreign nationals that enter the United States, and even more specifically, where they enter from.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: So we have like bans on certain countries being able to get immigrant visas.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: You know, we have uh these TPS cancellations.
13:43
SPEAKER_02: We had a lot of people come in from Ukraine when the war came out.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: Those people are starting to lose status.
13:49
SPEAKER_02: Deferred action for childhood arrival, the individuals that were brought here without status as children, but have grown up in the United States, their status is being threatened.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: Because immigration in the United States has very few options for low-skilled workers, these individuals that have employment authorization for these through these humanitarian programs are being marginalized.
14:13
SPEAKER_02: And whilst we see a somewhat of a reduction in white-collar worker because of the advent of AI, which is really like a driver for a lot of business immigration, we're not correspondingly having an understanding of lower-skilled labor and the importance of these programs.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I mean, it is highly, highly problematic.
14:35
SPEAKER_02: I think one of the things that people don't understand about the United States is we have a very low level of individuals coming to the US for employment-based purposes in the first place.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: Far lower than Canada.
14:47
SPEAKER_02: Like less, it's about 16% of people that enter the United States are coming for skilled migration.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: The majority of it's family reunification and almost an equal part to employment authorization has historically been humanitarian.
15:02
SPEAKER_02: But the lion's share of people coming to the US are through family sponsorship.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: In Canada, I think it's over 30% of people come for skilled migration.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there's just, you know, students go into skilled migration.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Like there's so many pathways into skilled migration.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: And even like with you know, how what happens in the US also spills over into Canada with all these Haitians, you know, we have a push for French speakers and we have French study permit pilots.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: You're seeing a lot of these Haitians being able to apply for this because one of the requirements is you don't have to show an intention to return to your home country.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: So it really works out for them that this program is available.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: Mind you, may not have been intended with this in mind, but what happens in the US still spills over into Canada and affects immigration here as well.
15:48
SPEAKER_02: And I think if you're a company and you're looking at like a real global solution, and this is where it becomes interesting, and this is where the firm is, you know, specially equipped to handle this, is your immigration strategy, if you're a multinational company, is not just the United States.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: You know, having the ability to transfer somebody to Canada, employ them in Canada, and then bring them back later as an intercompany transferee if there's a business need becomes part of the way you strategize things.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: You know, the Trump administration's effort to curtail student visas, I know you got something similar going on in Canada right now, but that could lead them, instead of pursuing an H1B, to have them hired in Canada under an intercompany transferee to ultimately work within the same time zone to provide the same benefit to the US enterprise.
16:38
SPEAKER_02: So this interplay between countries and understanding what's becoming more lenient, what's becoming more strict, and this sort of ever-changing evolution on theories of migration is becoming critically important.
16:51
SPEAKER_02: You know, for example, Germany is widely opening up skilled labor right now.
16:56
SPEAKER_02: They're looking at adding 400,000 skilled laborers a year.
16:59
SPEAKER_02: They're directly recruiting from places like India to bring talent in, primarily to offset population decline.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: You know, is that part of your strategy that a company takes advantage of if you happen to have offices over there?
17:12
SPEAKER_02: So it's far more these days than this is how you get a visa.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: It's more about how do we leverage an international workforce to provide the skill set needed for our business as we move to this through this technology revolution we're having to ensure business growth and continuity.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: Now, as we kind of alluded to, that's all fine and good on the skilled side, where a lot of work can be done remotely or across border or over internet and that kind of thing.
17:45
SPEAKER_02: But when it comes to the hard-skilled, lower-skilled labor, you know, we're almost acting in opposition of the interest of the country.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: And uh this is where I think it's like not really well understood throughout the United States, the impact that it's having.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: 2025, and the numbers aren't finalized yet, but might be the first year since 1930s that we had net negative migration to the United States, meaning more people left than came in.
18:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's remarkable.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: Let's see how the numbers play out.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: It's remarkable.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, even with the low skilled, I remember, I mean, when I was younger, um, I was reading articles where, you know, agricultural produce, um, you know, there's a big sting of like getting undocumented agricultural workers out of the country, but then these farms were suffering because there was no one to work.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then produce became an issue.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: Prices skyrocketed, there wasn't the produce because nobody was farming them.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think you you you you you hit the nail on the head.
18:55
SPEAKER_02: Um one of the greatest holes in the US economy is that we don't have a year-round low-skilled labor.
19:02
SPEAKER_02: We have seasonal low-skilled labor, but we don't have something for dishwashers, we don't have something for home health aids, we don't have something for let's even say mushroom farmers, which is a huge thing in Pennsylvania.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: 68% of the nation's mushrooms come from just south of Philadelphia.
19:19
SPEAKER_02: We don't have visas for that.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: So it's one thing to say they gotta do it the right way, but how do you do it the right way when there's no mechanism actually there to do it?
19:31
SPEAKER_02: And I I wish we would spend more time as a country within the business community talking about the cause of the problems with the immigration system as opposed to the effects.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: We talk a lot about the effect of our policy, and you do in Canada too.
19:50
SPEAKER_02: You know, there's a lot of students here, they have a pathway to green cards.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: How's this impacting our economy?
19:55
SPEAKER_02: We have to cut this off.
19:56
SPEAKER_02: Like, you talk about the effect of the policy, but not really take an understanding as to the why it is where it is.
20:05
SPEAKER_02: And my hope is that this starts to change.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: And you are seeing it, Sonia.
20:11
SPEAKER_02: Even in this very like difficult time for immigration in the United States, you're seeing it.
20:17
SPEAKER_02: In fact, there's a bill right now that's making its way through the House to expand low-skilled agriculture to include year-round agricultural businesses to alleviate that burden.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: That only comes because the system is broken.
20:32
SPEAKER_02: Those changes only happen because the community is crying for additional support.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: And that's what's driving some of these changes.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: You never want, you know, because like I'm a proud American.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you never, irrespective of what the administration is, like I love my country and I fundamentally believe in immigration.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: And you never want to see people suffer.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: But as long as that suffering is not in vain, as long as it leads to understanding and positive change, then sometimes it does have to break before it gets better.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: I know on Canada's side, we have, you know, federal government that manages the federal programs, but the feds had given a little mini powers to every province to navigate P Ps, you know, the immigration that is needed for that province.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: Would the states ever do that?
21:27
SPEAKER_02: It's funny that you say that because we are 100% a federal system on the benefit side.
21:33
SPEAKER_02: However, in reimagining the future of immigration in the United States, there is a lot of talk about localizing some of the ability to make determinations as to who should come in.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's smart.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: Like I applaud Canada for doing this because we have a lot of jobs data.
21:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, states like provinces have a very good understanding of where they need workers.
21:59
SPEAKER_02: You know, for example.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: For example, like we have one standard working visa.
22:02
SPEAKER_02: It's called the H1B.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: It's sort of ubiquitous.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: It's for everybody.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: It's heavily under attack right now.
22:08
SPEAKER_02: And some of the rhetoric coming from the administration makes sense.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: Look, think about it.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: If you have a large IT company in California laying off hundreds of thousands of people because of the advent of AI, why should they be able to apply for H1B visas?
22:29
SPEAKER_02: You know, if you've had that many layoffs, you should be retraining and rehiring.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: You know, and we have the job data to support that.
22:37
SPEAKER_02: In the same respect, Philadelphia is heavily invested in a biotech startup environment.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: We have great universities, we have great biotech.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: It's spectacular what's happening in the city in terms of that area, but they're limited because of the visas that are available.
22:56
SPEAKER_02: Why shouldn't Pennsylvania, that has readily available jobs in a specific industry, be able to dictate who comes to their country?
23:04
SPEAKER_02: Or even more fundamentally, you know, we do a lot of work with places like North Dakota, which seems like why would they have immigration issues?
23:12
SPEAKER_02: But they have the second lowest unemployment rate in the United States.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: They have more residents fleeing the state than any other.
23:20
SPEAKER_02: They need people for their industry.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: And the growth of their oil and gas industry in particular is heavily impacted by the inability to have individuals work in that field.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: Why can't they get special permission?
23:36
SPEAKER_02: So I would love for the U.S.
23:40
SPEAKER_02: to adopt more of a Canadian approach and really take advantage of the data that we have, really understand what states are going through.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, Sonia, to do that would require an act of Congress.
23:55
SPEAKER_02: And Congress has more or less abdicated responsibility for immigration to the administration.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: So it would take something from the White House as like a signature bill to really drive that kind of change.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully it's not that long.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully it's not that long.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's it's it is very challenging to get people to take that off.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: It would be smart though, right?
24:26
SPEAKER_01: Because look at all the states and their needs and their labor market needs and their business needs are completely different than the state right next to them.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, I I say this about Canada.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Every province is so different.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have acknowledged is very different.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: No, it's true.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: I uh I uh a lot of people, and you probably don't realize this, but a lot of people actually talk about the Canadian system in the United States.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: Like your um point-based system for the skilled migrant program, I think that's what you call it.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: Um that one is was even one of the things that Trump touted initially in his first administration.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: You know, again, I think there is a drive or want within the United States to expand skilled migration.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: I just think immigration advocates are wary that doing so is going to impact or hurt family reunification.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: You know, the numbers that are available for immigration, the quotas are somewhat of a zero-sum game in the minds of this administration in particular, whether than rather than saying we can have this, but we can also enhance this.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: So there's a very different thing.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, on the camera side, it's still a balancing act, right?
25:42
SPEAKER_01: We had the occupation-based system, then we had the human factor system, and now we're coming up with hopefully a new system that amalgamates we're still trying to get it right, right?
25:53
SPEAKER_01: And getting immigration right is very hard.
25:55
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it's hard because demographics and populations are constantly changing.
26:00
SPEAKER_02: You know, the the react the real reel is right now we have an immigration policy that is based on restriction.
26:09
SPEAKER_02: Canada is based on restriction.
26:11
SPEAKER_02: You have this amount of points you can come in, this amount of points you cannot, right?
26:15
SPEAKER_02: Or if you look at it from a pure macroeconomic perspective, the United States's death rate is going to exceed its birth rate in 10 years.
26:25
SPEAKER_02: 10 years.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: You're already seeing it in places like Japan and Korea is really bad, and China has a lot of problems, and Europe is being ravished by population decline.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: That's because people aren't having babies the way they used to have babies.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: The global population is meant to apex by the end of this century at about 10 billion people.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: After that, it's a zero-sum game.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: And I was looking at some very interesting statistics recently, but if the Trump immigration policy was to continue through the end of this century, the US's population would go from about 350 million to about 240 million.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: Losing 100 million plus people if we have net zero immigration.
27:17
SPEAKER_02: So my fundamental feeling is that all of this 20 years from now, and you kind of joked about 20 years from now, but all of this from 20 years from now is going to be flipped on its side.
27:30
SPEAKER_02: And this sort of concept of restriction is going to be replaced by one of encouragement.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: It's going to be like all that stuff you see online, like move to this small village in Italy and buy this house, and we'll give you status forever.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: Or for one euro.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: Or we even have programs here on the state level, like you move to Alaska, you get$10,000 in a winter coat.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like this migration through encouragement is only going to enhance when we start competing for people.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: And that's where I find this administration's vision for immigration extremely short-sighted.
28:11
SPEAKER_02: Look, it is what it is.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: Uh obviously I'm an immigration advocate.
28:17
SPEAKER_02: You are too.
28:17
SPEAKER_02: I think it makes everything better and more robust.
28:23
SPEAKER_02: But even if you don't agree with that, you have to fundamentally understand that population is what drives growth inherently.
28:33
SPEAKER_02: And so we have a different system from capitalism.
28:37
SPEAKER_02: Innovation can only take you so far.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you brought up a question.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: You had mentioned Germany is already doing the attraction of immigrants, you know, and like catering, you know, creating special programs.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: Is America losing this war of talent then?
28:54
SPEAKER_01: Or are we seeing maybe American companies going and setting up in Germany and transferring their talent over in a hope to potentially bring them back?
29:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a great question.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: I think the concept of brain drain, which is a driver in our immigration system, is always going to be there.
29:12
SPEAKER_02: The ability to innovate in the United States, the availability of venture capital funding, that's not going anywhere.
29:20
SPEAKER_02: But it's almost like we're having this own goal moment where we're cutting off the flow of immigrants and the desire to come to the United States intentionally, when this is a moment to encourage people to come to America, to do it the right way.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: Do it the way most Americans want it, which is legally, rather than expanding the legal pathways for people to be here, we're cutting them off.
29:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, I feel like the World Cup was great for Canada and the United States.
29:58
SPEAKER_02: I think it was special.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: I think it opened a lot of people's eyes to what's actually going on in the United States.
30:04
SPEAKER_02: The social media stuff was awesome, including the rampant love affair with ranch dressing.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is all great.
30:12
SPEAKER_02: But it could have been so much more.
30:15
SPEAKER_02: It should have been the moment in combination with the 250th birthday of the United States to kind of say we are the world's country.
30:25
SPEAKER_02: Everybody from everywhere is here.
30:28
SPEAKER_02: Same goes for Canada.
30:30
SPEAKER_02: You know, we are richer because of our diversity, not in spite of it.
30:34
SPEAKER_02: And I think it should have been a celebration rather than something where people approached with trepidation and were pleasantly surprised.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: And that's the tenor that this administration has put on the United States.
30:49
SPEAKER_02: And they've done so intentionally.
30:51
SPEAKER_02: I personally believe it's to our long-term detriment, maybe to the long-term benefit of Canada as we talk about.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Canada could capitalize on this if we can get it together.
31:03
SPEAKER_02: Well, Canada has its own issues with infrastructure and cost and affordability as well, but it's almost like the policy and the timing of the policy is ill-placed.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: It's like read the room, see what's actually going on and what's needed.
31:20
SPEAKER_02: It's very fascinating also because a lot of people think, Sonia, that this is like a Republican agenda to restrict immigration.
31:29
SPEAKER_02: Where, in fact, historically speaking, Republicans have been responsible for great expansions of immigration.
31:36
SPEAKER_02: You know, at the very beginning of this podcast, we talked about 1986.
31:41
SPEAKER_02: Do you remember?
31:42
SPEAKER_02: Last time we had fundamental change.
31:44
SPEAKER_02: That was also the last time we had an amnesty in the United States.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: Do you know who was in power in 1986?
31:53
SPEAKER_02: It was Ronald Reagan.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: Ronald Reagan is like the patron saint of all things Republican these days.
32:00
SPEAKER_02: Ronald Reagan loved immigrants.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: And on his very last day in office, he gave a speech.
32:09
SPEAKER_02: He didn't talk about his accomplishments.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: He didn't talk about what's happened under his administration for eight years.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: He talked about the importance of immigration.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: And I can paraphrase it a little bit, but he said essentially, we are enriched as a country with each new wave of immigrants, with new ideas, with new innovations, with new culture that is completely expanding the United States' reach as the most important country in the world.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: And the day we turn our back on new immigrants is the day that we cease to be leaders of the world.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: And I think we need to remember that as a country.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: We fundamentally need to remember that we are better because of it.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: We are a nation of immigrants.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: One half of the Fortune 100 companies in the United States were founded by immigrants or the children of immigrants.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: Entrepreneurship and innovation comes through immigration.
33:20
SPEAKER_02: And I hope, and sort of a twist of irony, because of all of these challenges, that we can remember that again and continue to grow into the future.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a very important point.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: And I think you said it so beautifully.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: When I am in a group with anyone, I'm like, oh, it's so nice to see different perspectives.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm born and raised in Canada.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: My perspective of, you know, my cousin who's born and raised in India could be completely different on the same topic.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: And I get enlightened.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, I never thought of it like this.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: But good to know.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's really what it's all about.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: Do we want to talk about if ICE came to a company's door?
34:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:03
SPEAKER_02: So this is a lot of what the firm's been doing now, and sort of our expansion into the effort of compliance work is also preparation on what to do if ICE comes.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: You know, a lot of the problems is that individuals that encounter ICE are usually the people at the front desk who might not know, who don't understand what a warrant is versus an administrative search.
34:23
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's uh, I don't know if you ever saw the movie The Lost Boys from like the 80s.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: It's a vampire movie, but in there they have this theory that if you invite a vampire into your house, the vampire retains all of its vampire powers.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: So the garlic doesn't work, the holy water doesn't work, they can see the reflection in the mirror.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: It that's ice.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: If you invite them in and you let them run rampant around your location, they have a lot of power to detain, to arrest, etc.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: But if you restrict them to the terms of the warrants, then anything that they discover or any arrests that they make are considered fruit of the forbidden tree, which gets thrown out by the courts.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: So understanding that is a heavy part of what we do, understanding what is public versus private.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: Like I never thought in a million years I'd be using so much property law and advising companies on immigration.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: Like all this stuff I learned in law school is like coming flooding back.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: And I think what it's like being legally compliant and being operationally prepared for this.
35:25
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
35:26
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
35:27
SPEAKER_02: And that first line of defense, who they encounter and having a protocol in place and like understanding how to effectuate uh an ice visit, becomes critically important.
35:38
SPEAKER_02: But that's that sense of community.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: And in a weird sort of way, it's a galvanizing thing.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: It's bringing communities together.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: You know, in Philadelphia, you walk around small businesses and they have like ice out signs, and there's like a real solidarity that's being created.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, we alluded to it before, but a lot of people made a lot of sacrifices to change ICE's behavior, and particularly what happened in Minneapolis and the dead of winter was quite remarkable.
36:09
SPEAKER_02: Was really remarkable.
36:11
SPEAKER_02: And any lives lost over anything that is politically driven is extremely unfortunate.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: But I don't think it was in vain.
36:19
SPEAKER_02: I really don't.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: I think there is fundamental change and it has made communities stronger as a result.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: So I mean, like, what would be your advice to a company, you know, after listening to this podcast, or maybe not even listening to this podcast, come in Monday morning.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: If you're not prepared to take steps, if I showed up, make sure you're ready.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: Your front line knows what to do or who to contact.
36:46
SPEAKER_02: There's two things I would do.
36:47
SPEAKER_02: Fundamentally, I would do like a paperwork review of all their compliance documents, the I-9 protocols, all of these things to ensure the legality of your workforce.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: That's a fundamental easy thing to do if they do decide to come in and do an audit.
37:02
SPEAKER_02: You want to minimize those fines.
37:03
SPEAKER_02: Sonny, you can get fined$300 to$3,000 per violation.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: It's not cheap.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: You need to be able to work with the people that are facing the public to have them understand how to encounter an ice agent the way they would encounter a law enforcement agent.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: You have to be able to have somebody who can say to them, listen, I respect why you guys are here.
37:30
SPEAKER_02: We want to be compliant within the law.
37:32
SPEAKER_02: We have a protocol for this.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: Allow me to contact my manager, allow me to contact the law firm, allow me to contact our legal department.
37:40
SPEAKER_02: And not all of these ICE agents are agree.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: Some of them are going to be aggressive.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully, you have cameras on your premises so you can keep an eye on what they're doing and when they're doing it.
37:49
SPEAKER_02: Not everybody is going to be copacetic, but I will tell you, most of these ICE agents respect that.
37:57
SPEAKER_02: Most of them have been with the administration through a variety of different White Houses.
38:03
SPEAKER_02: And they are there to adhere to the law as much as possible.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: You're going to get bad actors just like you got bad employers.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: But I think for the most part, if you are prepared and you have a plan and you have a policy, the government will allow you to execute it within reason of whatever type of investigation they're engaging in.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
38:29
SPEAKER_01: If Congress gave you one afternoon to redesign an employment-based immigration, where would you start with that?
38:38
SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: So I got the keys to the car.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: You do.
38:44
SPEAKER_02: Well, fundamentally, I would create a guest worker program that allows for low-skilled working people because I think the majority of people that are here without status in the United States enter for economic benefit.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: And if you created a mechanism, and frankly, even though it's adverse to our own interest as lawyers, make it so that you don't need a lawyer to do it, so that any employer, any restaurant can do it, make it easy.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think that that is the biggest hole in the entire immigration system.
39:11
SPEAKER_02: Affecting the low-skilled labor and making it so it's accessible to everybody would be of critical importance.
39:15
SPEAKER_02: That would be day one.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: I would also allow for some of the things that we talked about, if we insist on a quota-based system, allowing states and regions to have more agency in how those quotas are utilized would be very, very practical and I think highly beneficial.
39:34
SPEAKER_02: Personally, I don't like quotas.
39:37
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think that we should allow the market to dictate who comes and when they're sponsored.
39:43
SPEAKER_02: But I understand the concerns of the majority of the population by being undercut by foreign workers, and we need to give them some level of assurances there.
39:51
SPEAKER_02: But I would I would definitely expand the ability and the pools of numbers that are available for working visas, like this H1B lottery, the consternation over getting selected and not getting selected.
40:04
SPEAKER_02: And then the other one that I think is really important kind of follows what Canada does.
40:10
SPEAKER_02: But if you come here as a student and you get at least a master's level education in a STEM field, you shouldn't be subject to numerical limitations on H1B visas.
40:20
SPEAKER_02: At that point, you've spent six years of your life in the United States, the majority of your sentient adulthood in this country.
40:30
SPEAKER_02: You should have the ability to continue in your life here.
40:32
SPEAKER_02: And I believe that on a fundamental basis.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: Jonathan, what is the most misunderstood visa in the US?
40:41
SPEAKER_02: Most misunderstood visa is probably the visitor visa, actually.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: Thought you were gonna say that.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because you can do a lot more than just come for meetings.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: There's actually like the ability to train, to give training, to my favorite new sorry, the new, the new part they added to the visitor visa.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: The one okay.
41:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like so.
41:02
SPEAKER_02: Before you could only receive training as a visitor, now you can actually give training.
41:06
SPEAKER_02: That's the advent of what happened with the raid in Georgia.
41:09
SPEAKER_02: My favorite use of the visitor visa is prospective investor.
41:12
SPEAKER_02: If you're thinking about starting a business in the United States, you can come on in to explore that investment.
41:18
SPEAKER_02: It's actually like highly misunderstood.
41:21
SPEAKER_02: Where people get caught up these days, Sony, is they feel like they have to say a certain thing to get admitted to the country.
41:26
SPEAKER_02: So, like, oh, why are you here?
41:28
SPEAKER_02: I'm visiting my friends and family.
41:30
SPEAKER_02: And then, like, two months later you're applying because you've established a company in the United States, like that gets you more in trouble than just actually being truthful as to your original purpose.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: So the visitor visa is highly misused and misunderstood.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: But if someone came in to visit their family and then also did these exploratory visits to see if they want to invest, is that okay?
41:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but you should declare that you're doing both because there's two types of visitors there's visitor for business and visitor for pleasure.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: If you get tagged in visitor for pleasure, you can't do business activities.
42:03
SPEAKER_02: And that creates the wrong.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: Say you were always intending to come to visit your family, but then at a lunch, someone brought something up.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: You're like, oh, I wouldn't mind doing this.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: As long as you can like explain it to the counselor officer or the board officer, you're okay, but you need to be prepared to discuss it.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: With questions and pushback.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay, interesting.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay, what is your favorite success story?
42:26
SPEAKER_02: Ooh, you know, it's kind of interesting that you I mean, I could give you a number of business examples, but my favorite success story actually was a case I did very early in my career.
42:40
SPEAKER_02: And it was a woman who was born in the United States but not in a hospital.
42:46
SPEAKER_02: And her family or parents were in a very rough spot, drugs and all these other things.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: The dad kidnapped the child and took them to Canada.
42:56
SPEAKER_02: He was Canadian.
42:58
SPEAKER_02: And the kid grew up in Canada but never had a passport and had no identity.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: And we worked with her family and Department of State to establish that she was like legitimately born in the United States and she was actually a U.S.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: citizen and she was actually able to come here.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: And like discovering somebody's actual origin, something that she knew to be true, and to like allow her to fulfill that dream of like reuniting with her mother and coming back to the United States.
43:34
SPEAKER_02: It was one of those little cases where I was at a point in my career where I could put countless hours into it, like on my own time.
43:43
SPEAKER_02: And when we received that outcome and she finally arrived back in the country, um, well, it's a moment I would never forget.
43:52
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's some bigger things that we've worked on, like during the first Trump administration and doing pro bono work for Syrian families and getting them.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: United, those were all great.
44:02
SPEAKER_02: But to take somebody who is stateless and like give them the nationality, I don't think I'll ever top that one.
44:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, when you do immigration, there's just something special about it.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, especially when it comes to personal immigration or individual immigration.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: There's just something that hits hard.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: And I have clients that I've worked with 20 years ago, like as a student, and then they came back and they've done family.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: They always remember what you did for them.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, because it's a new chapter in their lives.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: It's a huge thing for them.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: When you come to visit me in Philadelphia and you, you know, you look around my office and you see all of these little gifts that people have given you from their home countries, and each one is telling a story of a case you were successful on.
44:52
SPEAKER_02: Uh, these talismans of your career are the indelible marks that you've made through people in migration.
45:00
SPEAKER_02: And uh it's a beautiful thing.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: It really the good feels, yeah.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: It really comes down to the feel-goods, right?
45:07
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: What is one prediction for immigration that you would make 10 years from now?
45:15
SPEAKER_02: Like a prediction?
45:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:17
SPEAKER_02: I think we are going to have this realization that we talked a lot about today that man, we really screwed this up.
45:24
SPEAKER_02: And like this is not a Democrat, this is not a Republican issue.
45:27
SPEAKER_02: This is decades of ignoring the fact that we've ignored this lower skilled population.
45:35
SPEAKER_02: You know, the fact that we've never really taken care of the cause of our immigration problems is going to come back and really be something that I think we're going to regret as a country.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: I just think we're going to recognize that we did it wrong.
45:53
SPEAKER_02: I hope it's not as bad as like when people look at medicine from 100 years ago and they're like, wow, you treated this ailment with leeches.
46:01
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, it kind of has that feel to me like we've missed an opportunity to really dig in on what makes this country, well, the United States great.
46:13
SPEAKER_02: I know I'm sitting in Canada today.
46:15
SPEAKER_02: What makes the United States a special place?
46:18
SPEAKER_02: And I hope we can catch up again.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, at the beginning of the year, Canada and the US started off rocky in their relationship.
46:28
SPEAKER_01: So, most important question, Jonathan.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: Are we friends?
46:31
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, of course we are.
46:34
SPEAKER_02: 100%.
46:36
SPEAKER_02: I think we're like siblings that are bickering right now politically.
46:40
SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of it's posturing, but like deep down, the US-Canadian relationship is the most intertwined and most important relationship of any two countries anywhere in the world.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: And I fundamentally believe that.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: We have an unpatrolled border.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: It is the safest border in the world.
47:01
SPEAKER_02: It is really amazing what we can do together and how we are able to do it.
47:07
SPEAKER_02: Yes, there is a lot of posturing right now.
47:10
SPEAKER_02: Yes, the I think you guys call it the Kuzma, we call it USMCA, NAFTA is being challenged.
47:18
SPEAKER_02: Yes, there are issues over dedications of bridges and funding and blaming plumes of smoke coming from wildfires.
47:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, all that.
47:35
SPEAKER_02: We have a shared value system, we share a continent together.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: It is the most peaceful continent on the planet.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: And I don't think one administration is going to change that.
47:53
SPEAKER_02: I do think it's interesting how one president changed your last election, but we'll save that for our next podcast.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I mean, like, and you know, you say you're a proud American.
48:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm a very proud Canadian, right?
48:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, but and I've traveled a lot, and I'm sure you've traveled a lot too.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: And I've gone to countries where, you know, mostly most countries have border issues with their neighboring countries.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: And I came to a realization we have it so lucky here.
48:19
SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: Right.
48:21
SPEAKER_01: And we don't even realize it because we've been in it for so long.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: And then when these things started coming up, we're like, hold on a second, this isn't normal.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: We should really be grateful for what we have and continue it forward.
48:36
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you just think about it, like the amount of Canadians that snowbird in the United States that see Florida as like an expansion of who they are and where they are, you know, being able to cross over to Buffalo from Toronto or from Ontario to Detroit.
48:52
SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is part of daily life.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: And just like the same way I feel like the entrepreneurial spirit within immigrants cannot be changed or faltered because of the administration, I don't think there's anything that can ultimately harm what is one of the greatest relationships between two countries.
49:12
SPEAKER_02: This was fun, son.
49:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'd be happy to come back again.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: Companies that are legally compliant and operationally prepared are in a better position to deal with enforcement actions.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: If today's conversation raised some questions about where your business stands, or if there's a knock on your door, what you would do, book a consultation through the link below.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: If this episode was helpful, subscribe so you don't miss the next one.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: We'll see you soon.