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Finding Comfort in Loss During the Covid-19 Crisis · Centrally Speaking

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Centrally speaking, it's the central point of the church's podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: It speaks about issues that would be of interest to our society.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: In particular, it addresses how a Christian worldview intersects with Western secular culture.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: In the spirit of the church's founder, we take the perspective of the middle way, which is in agreement with the historic Christian church.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: I'm Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_04: Drake Williams, Minister of Mission and Theology for Church.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_04: Our website is www.cstfamily.org.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_04: Our topic today is finding comfort in loss during the COVID-19 crisis.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_04: And we're so very fortunate today to have two guests with us.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_04: Claire Drexler is an experienced therapist at the Center for Loss and Bereavement in Skipack, Pennsylvania, which is now celebrating its 20th year serving the Lansdale Worcester community.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_04: Her entire career has centered on working with individuals coping with life-threatening illness and chronic disability, as well as people in palliative care and hospice settings.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_04: At the center, Claire works with the staff to prepare and present small group roundtable trainings designed for professionals who are interested in expanding their knowledge of loss and bereavement.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_04: She has conducted a wide range of support groups, including groups for bereaved adults, caregivers, and cancer survivors.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_04: She also enjoys working with children at Nellow's Corner in Camp Milley.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the show, Claire.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: We're glad to have you.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for the opportunity.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm also joined today by a good friend and colleague, Reverend Dr.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_04: David McKinley, who is senior minister at Central Frankfeller Church, where he has served for 18 years.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_04: He's a graduate of Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary as well as Westminster Theological Seminary and has achieved a Doctor of Ministry at Biblical Theological Seminary in Hatfield, Pennsylvania, now Missio in Philadelphia.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: His extensive experience in ministry involves not only preaching and teaching, but service to those in time of loss.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_04: On average, Dr.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_04: McKinley conducts approximately 20 funerals per year, and he has spent hours counseling and assisting those in situations of loss and grief.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_04: And welcome to you too, David.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_04: We're glad you're here.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_04: Our topic uh is not solely about grief, but about grief during the COVID-19 crisis.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm wondering if uh both of you might uh share some of your experiences of those who have suffered loss during COVID-19.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_04: That might be the numbers of people that you've worked with, but it also might be specific uh examples and circumstances.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_04: I'm wondering if you could share a few things about that uh as we start this uh this interview.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_04: Claire, could you go first for us?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, yes.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: At the center, we have been seeing people who have experienced loss during the COVID crisis, some of that from the disease itself, and then some others, other types of loss, other kinds of deaths not directly related to COVID, but in this day and age, everything is related to COVID.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, we see people from daughters and granddaughters of individuals, uh, an individual in her 80s who died alone in the hospital from COVID.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: We have other similar kinds of circumstances.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think that it is a is a big concern for a lot of our clients about how they're going to manage their grief during this time, whether it was from the COVID virus itself or whether it was another kind of death.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's all very complicated right now.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: And the coping mechanisms that people would normally use to get through a difficult time like this are not available to them.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so we have a lot of focus on that at this time.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: Have you been seeing an increase in number of people coming to the center during this time?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, actually, we have.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Our census is up, and that's very interesting to us because we're doing everything still virtually.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're all we're doing all of our individual counseling, our groups, our children's groups, our Nello's Corner are all done via Zoom or other platform.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, we were afraid that people wouldn't want to do that.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: And what we found is kind of the opposite, you know, that you know, people are reaching out to us, they don't mind the virtual format.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: And in some ways, I think people are a little bit more comfortable.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we do have people that live outside the immediate our immediate service area now who are reaching out to us.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: We can do that.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: I have a client who lost her grandmother to COVID and she lives in the Reading area.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: And in another circle, in another time, when we didn't do virtual sessions, she would not have come to us.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: It would would have been too far.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we're trying to make the best out of uh a difficult circumstance and expanding our reach in some ways.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_04: David, in the church of uh some 1,200 uh members or so, uh uh, but also a community church that uh has attracted uh many uh during times of of loss.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_04: I'm wondering if you could share about uh some of the experiences that you've had specifically with those dealing with COVID-19 and its aftermath.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: What I have found is that COVID has affected the grief process of those who have lost loved ones through other uh situations and circumstances.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: People have lost their loved ones to cancer or to natural causes or to heart attack, but the situation has been such that COVID has completely disrupted what they would normally uh expect uh their own grieving process to be.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, probably the people that have have been affected by COVID itself and and loss as a result of COVID have probably been in the single digit.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So here's just a few examples.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: One grandfather that was in his 90s, uh, that ironically enough was a World War II hero, died of COVID in isolation, was able to talk to his family via phone, but because he was in a nursing facility, he was alone when this happened.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very tragic.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Another situation, a brother in his 60s died of COVID.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And this was a real heartbreak for his sister who attends our church.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then also a husband in his 40s died of COVID in the city.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: All of these situations are tragic and unexpected to think that uh you would essentially from outward appearance get the flu and then uh lose your life and and what the family members go through through such a thing does foster fear and fosters uh extreme sadness.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: But uh the bigger impact in numbers has been how COVID has affected the grieving process.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we've had a number of people that have gone on, passed away, and their family members have not had the luxury of having an in-house funeral that had to be postponed.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or if they had a service, it was confined to an outdoor service, a graveside.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And funerals at our church, especially for our members, there's quite a comforting process that involves a visitation time, a service that will last close to an hour that might include testimony from family and friends, as well as a meditation from the pastor that would include a eulogy, and then an internment most of the time at our cemetery and back of the church, and then a meal, uh, whereas you know, maybe a hundred people would would have lunch together, and there would be more visiting and more uh support and love and comfort given.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's been my experience is that COVID has interrupted the grief process more so than the virus, in fact, bringing about death itself, but not to diminish those that have lost family members by the by the virus.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I absolutely agree with you.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: That is most of the time that I spend with my clients who have a recent loss is to deal with that kind of thing, that they haven't been able to do what they would normally do under that circumstance.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of like to put it in the category that we in the grief field talk about is that people have lost their assumptive world.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: The things that they think will always be, that we will always have access to, that will always be the same, are not right now.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so whether they're coping with a COVID-specific death or whether it's another kind of loss, the loss of that assumptive world, the things that people need to support them when they're grieving is really not accessible to them.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a devastating thing.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that is, like Pastor David said, the funeral ritual that we would expect to have when someone dies, that outpouring of support, that way to, you know, openly connect with people and gain strength through that is unavailable, or at least not in the way.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you spoke about a World War II vet.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: I would imagine that that was very difficult because to be honored in a way that someone who served his country in that way not being able to potentially, I mean, I don't know, but potentially not being able to honor him in a way that the family always thought that they would be able to do.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: So there's that coping.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: And everyone's assumptive world is different.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: The things that bother some people don't bother others, it's a very individual, just as grief is very individual, it's a very individual kind of thing.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_04: And what are the effects then on whether it be a family or be a community?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_04: David, you've talked about it.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_04: A church has not been able to mourn with people.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_04: What are the effects that come when the grief process is interrupted?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I appreciate what Claire said that people have lost their assumptive world.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great way of putting it.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think then, and I would find characteristically our area, people are more private, that this has made them even more private.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: It has forced them into even more privacy.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so the way that people express their grief, of course, is different for everybody, but uh this has forced people more inward.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that that's a healthy experience.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we need to express our grief with others and we need each other, as uh John Don once said, No man is is an island.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're all connected to each other and we need each other.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: So for the coronavirus to then make it to where people have to not only grieve, but grieve alone, that's tough.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: That stretches our healing capacities even more and make it to where the whole grieving process and the closure process Sunday was all Saints Day, where we read the list of names of our church members that have passed away.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And at the service was one widow who lost her husband at the very beginning of the process, right in March.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: They had come back from a trip, and the medical professionals thought that it was heart-related, but she still has not been able to have a funeral to recognize her husband's life.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so my heart breaks for her because we need closure, and that's been inhibited, I think.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or we just find a way to deal with it in some other way.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And for some of us, it's not necessarily healthy ways.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: I know a lot of my clients are sort of balancing what some of them describe as some relief from the world that during this grieving time they have an opportunity to just be, that they don't feel quite so much pressure to participate, to get out there, to get over it, to move on, you know, all those sorts of things, but it does give them the opportunity to be private in their reflections and not have to manage everyone else's expectations.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: Now, having said that, I agree with what the pastor said is that we all need support, you know, like that you know, no man is an island kind of thing, and that we all need support in some way.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so not being able to access it and choose to take advantage of it is one of the difficult things.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm ready to go out now.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: I would like to go have lunch with my friend, but I can't.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I would like to see my granddaughter now, but I can't.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: So there's the ability to respond to your own inner needs and and grief processes is is limited.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Some people are like saying, Oh yeah, I'm so glad I had this time where I didn't work from home in my slippers, and if I needed to take a break, I could take a break and I could sort of do some self-care that I normally would not have done.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: However, you know, the other side of that is that they just don't have the opportunity to choose to do something else.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's hard.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's very hard.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I would also just say, too, that some people find it hard to express their their emotions, their losses, because everybody's coping with losses.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: They're non-death losses, but it's interestingly enough, people who come for counseling, especially, but I'm sure you see it too, is that you know, they want to know with what they're feeling is normal.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, I hate that.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody asked me if it's normal.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: What's normal?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: There is no there is no normal.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, is it helping you or hurting you?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Is kind of the the way that that we approach that.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: But they don't have any foundation to be able to at least gauge themselves with because everybody's hurting.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Grieving people are often very careful not to be that person who's always talking about their loss.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: They don't want to be identified completely by that, but right now they don't have a chance to be able to find that.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we're hopefully trying to meet some of that need, and I'm sure the churches too, you know, to help people know they're okay.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_04: You both talked about isolation and how that's uh not healthy.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, how about fear?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_04: Do you feel that people are more fearful uh during this time and how has that influenced uh the way that uh people cope or the way that they uh they grieve?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that people are are dealing with fear broadly.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the COVID is just one aspect, but uh the the situation in our country, I ironically enough, today is election day, the situation involving the economy and the the loss of job or the threat of becoming ill, or also the racial tension in our country, all of those, it's almost like a perfect storm.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: There are many things that are producing fear right now.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so how are people dealing with their fear just uh recognizing that these are strange times?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting how people will say over the phone or personal conversation or over email or text messaging, these are strange times.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: If I had a dime for every time that somebody said these are strange times, I'd be doing pretty good.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it's uh there's fear for a lot of reasons.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would probably the the way that I think about it more is just is anxiety.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think that there is a lot of anxiety, and we are all amped up right now.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: We're all sort of in, you know, to to look at it in neurobiological terms, we're all sort of activated and our fight, flight, or freeze responses are very much on the surface.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't take much to trigger somebody to get to to have that activation kind of response to anything.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: It can be from getting a flat tire, can send somebody into a into a tizzy because they've been dealing with on a neurobiological level, cortisol, adrenaline, all of those stress hormones are spinning around in our body a lot.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: And our primitive brain can't tell the difference between a tiger and thinking about a tiger.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: We're triggered all the time.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: And our grieving people are particularly triggered because they haven't really had a chance to calm themselves down, so to speak.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean that in the way that you know your mother tells you to calm down, but I mean in, you know, to to be able to do things to counteract this primitive response to threats in our body.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: So some of the things that you know we encourage people to do sound so simple, but they're uh very useful.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm old enough to know back in the day when I first started doing all of this, you know, we would tell people that they should exercise, that they would feel better if they exercised.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: And we knew that, but we didn't quite know why that was.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: But now we can stick somebody's head in an MRI machine and see what happens to your brain after you exercise and how those endorphins are antidotes to some of the stress hormones.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really helpful to talk to people about those kinds of things because it takes the shame out of it.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: It takes the uh personal feeling of failure.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so sad, I can't move, I can't do this, I'm feeling like, you know, I'm a failure.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: I can't, why can't I get over this?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Why can't I move on?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Why can't I be normal?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, all those kinds of things.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so sort of to help them understand what's happening to us.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're at this, our surge capacity, you know, that capacity to rise to the challenge of a of a uh crisis is meant to just be short term.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: And now we're at this for nine months.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: So our surge capacity is shot.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: So whether you have an impending loss or one that's happened, you know, we're just so out of our element and our ability to manage these things that, you know, it's important to think about those kinds of things.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the anxiety, the fear.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Fear is healthy when it's when the threat is tangible.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's less healthy when the threat is all around us and not very concrete.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: I'm wondering, are there any special programs that the Center for Loss and Bereavement is uh offering during this time to help direct people during this time of the pandemic?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: We have our individual therapy, and that's really helpful.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we do have specialized support groups.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, what we try to do is have people with similar losses together in Zoom support groups right now and a mature loss of spouse group.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: So for people who are over 65-ish, who've lost a spouse, they that's a group that we have.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: We have one for younger loss of spouse.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: We have a group that's been longstanding and continues.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: I facilitated it for a while, a loss of child group.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to welcome new people in with new losses.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to maintain what we've been doing and try to expand on that.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Our Nellow's Corner program, which is for the kids, is ongoing and we do continue the part one of the one of the beauties of the Nellows Corner program is that there is a the kids are together in their own group, and at the same time when we meet in person, their caregivers meet in order to talk about how it is to parent a grieving child.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we've adapted that so that we can still have those folks get together.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: We have a loss of sibling group.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: We have had, we are reaching out to the medical community to be able to support them as they're taking care of all these COVID patients.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we've had some support groups for that.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: We actually had a group for employees of an animal shelter whose veterinarian that worked with them died and you know actually completed suicide.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to reach out to everybody in all circumstances because it's really tough.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Some of the things we're doing for the community is we have your podcast is called Centrally Speaking.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Our Zoom forums are called Centered Conversations.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so we pick topics they've been COVID-related and offer them up to the community, mostly professionals or other interested parties, just to take part in these things and just talk, just kind of like what we're doing right now, just talk about it, talk what it's like to be managing a staff who is coping with COVID.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: So that those centered conversations are really cool and we're enjoying them very much.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we're still doing our professional education like we've always done.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: So trying to think creatively, trying to change what was important in the first two or three months of the COVID crisis is different now.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: We're um trying to respond to that.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_04: And David, at the church, have you found uh people are more receptive to the Christian message uh during this time uh with uh the uncertainty as well as with uh fear and isolation?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_04: How have you found people responding?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: I would like to think that people are more receptive, uh more sensitive to spiritual matters.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: I also think that ironically enough, the the opportunity to live stream and meet over Zoom or to have recorded services where people can have the Christian community accessible from their homes has been a great blessing.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Drake, as I've heard you say, it is plan B.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now we do have in-person services that are going on, and we are running less than half of what our uh normal capacity would be on a Sunday morning.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: But with social distancing and wearing masks, we cannot house as many people.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's uh everything's a trade-off.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say here's an example.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: We had a dear lady in our church that was a deaconess, she was a leader, she helped organize our annual country fair many years in a row.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: She also uh was very active in the community serving and and giving her time.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: She passed away several months ago from a heart attack.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Then there were many people that wanted to attend her funeral service, but could not because we were in the middle of COVID, or maybe they had gone back to work, they didn't have the time to take off.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: We made the decision to live stream that service and thus it was recorded and accessible to others in our congregation.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I had many responses, how blessed they were to hear the service, to witness uh the test.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Of her two children giving of her faith in Christ and what type of a mother she was.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all things do work together for the good.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: God is able to use the most difficult of circumstances and flip them on its head to serve others, to bless others, to minister to others.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so important for each and every congregation to be available and to be creative in how they minister to folks.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: That that's what I've witnessed.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_04: I wonder if uh both of you could talk about uh some coping strategies during uh this time of uh the pandemic.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_04: Do you have any that you would uh recommend to listeners uh not only in the area, but let's say outside of the area who may not be able to come to church service at Central or who could come to the Center for Loss and Bereavement?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, there's coping mechanisms are kind of individual, but we can put them in categories that things that you can do physically.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's important for people to stay physically fit, to move around, like I talked before about how physical exercise and and elevating our endorphins is important to counteract some of our stress hormones.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: So to just do that on a on a very basic sort of prescriptive level, to just go do it.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Just go out cold.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's I always tell my uh 90-year-old mother is cold averse.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I always tell her, No, you need to go out.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's why God made hats and gloves.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: Just sort of go do what you need to do, you know, and and take advantage of that kind of thing.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: So there's that.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's the calming of our stress responses in other ways through meditation, through prayer, through those kinds of things that sort of can calm our mind down, you know, get a hold of our monkey mind.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, when we're in this reactive state, when we're everything is scary, you know, everything is different, everything is unsure, to be able to sort of censor themselves and take care of that, to reach out, to not isolate is important, to find some meaning, to do something meaningful, whether that's to knit hats for babies in the ICU or take phone calls for some sort of organization, something that where you're reaching out, that there is a lot of healing in helping someone else, doing something else.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: Some people are ready for that, some people aren't.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: And when they're not, to give them permission to just be, to take some time, to let themselves seek their level.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Really, really hard to do.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody wants to fix it.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody who around you wants to fix you, wants to make you better, and it sometimes it's most of the time it's through love, but often sometimes it's because the person that's around you doesn't want to tolerate your sadness and oh well.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: We have to w work with that.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: So to try to empower people to own their grief and talk about what it is like for them, even when other people don't want to hear it.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: Talk about their loved ones, do those kinds of coping skills.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my experience is that our spirit, so to speak, as as humans is pretty strong.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: And given the time and the support to get through something, we can and people do.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's terrifying when you're in the middle of it, that you're never gonna feel yourself.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: When am I gonna feel okay again?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: People say to me.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: When is when am I gonna be over this?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I talk to people about the fact that they need to develop grief muscles.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: Not so much that the grief gets easier, you just develop the ability to bear it in a way that is less debilitating.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: At first, the grief takes you to your knees, but as you develop grief muscles, which includes coping mechanisms, you're able to withstand it in a way that doesn't devastate you all the time.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: And people like kind of like that.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's a model that sort of helps people understand what's happening because people also don't want to let go of the pain sometimes because that's their connection to their loved one.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so when they start to feel better, that's a scary thing too.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh my gosh, you know, am I forgetting them?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: Am I being disloyal?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: Am I, you know, all kinds of thoughts go through people's mind when they start to feel better.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: So to help them understand that they've just developed the capacity to bear those feelings.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Those are the kinds of things to slow down a little bit.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Don't watch the election news if it's irritating to you.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: Be okay with saying no when you don't want to.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Those are lots of good coping mechanisms.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, there is also basic needs of people, food, shelter, clothing.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: If they're living in an insecure environment, then then we need to help people marshal the forces to do that.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: But generally, it's that's part of self-care too.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_04: David, you have some things to share about coping during this time.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I would concur with Claire.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that she has done a great job suggesting many things.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think in particular, the church promotes and offers and teaches on those things, such as prayer, study of scripture, and meditating on scripture, attending worship service.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, some people are comfortable with coming back to church and others are not.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so they view church from home.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think to really invest your time in uh spiritual exercises such as prayer, solitude, quietness.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: You've preached a great sermon last Sunday on uh solitude, Drake.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciated that.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Worship, music is very valuable.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: So those are some things that I think that are important.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: I also, as Paul said in Romans chapter 12, to be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think we we have so much at our fingertips now with learning and the life of the mind to open your mind up and learn on a new topic.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: That might be a way to cope with with your grief and with your loss, but also to learn about yourself.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the things that I've been listening uh to Claire speak on, I'm taking notes.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: We can always be learning and growing in our knowledge of things.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's very important.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: I absolutely agree.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that you know, really very helpful for people to learn about something that they didn't think about before, using different ways to make that happen.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Some people are good journalers, kids love to draw, you know, they love to write down and illustrate the things that are on their mind.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Grown-ups like that too.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: Get the crayons out and color and think about what you're feeling, and particularly to address some of the more uncomfortable emotions surrounding grief, like anger.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Anger is uncomfortable.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's useful to for people at a certain point, anger propels them and and gets them moving, but to sit in that anger for a long time isn't healthy.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty comfortable talking about spiritual things with my clients.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: Not every therapist is, but I am, and I feel it's like it's important to talk to them and assess that.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: And when they falter, when they're not as faithful or secure in their spiritual beliefs as they've been before, and the feelings that that creates.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I use sense of humor a lot, and that's sort of natural for me to do that.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I say, Well, wait a minute, let's think about this, let's think about anger and particularly anger to God.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, You know, I'm no theologian, but seems to me as though the Bible is full of people being pretty upset with God, you know, all sat in prison and yelled for a long time.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like not something that is unfamiliar to people who have studied, and they all go, Oh, yeah, you're kind of right.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's true, you know.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And and then I leave it at that.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's your guy's job.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's just important to say, you know, uh, let's not catastrophize here.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Let's look at you're a human being.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_04: Well, maybe in that spirit, David, maybe read particular text from the Bible that you felt is uh might be helpful for somebody experiencing grief during this time of pandemic and something that would provide some hope.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: I would reference many of the psalms, Psalm 46, verse 1, our God is a refuge and strength, a very present help in time of trouble.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: The fact uh that the God of the universe avails himself to help us.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Also, uh Jesus' words in Matthew 11, 28, come to me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Also, the 23rd Psalm, that is arguably one of the most well-known, that along with uh Jesus' words in John 3.16, the 23rd Psalm, The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: But if I was to read one passage in particular that I think says so much, is uh Psalm 121.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: I would like to read that.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I lift up my eyes to the hills.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: From where does my help come?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: My help comes from the Lord who made heaven and earth.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: He will not let your foot be moved.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: He who keeps you will not slumber.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Behold, he who keeps Israel will neither slumber nor sleep.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: The Lord is your keeper, the Lord is your shade at your right hand, the sun shall not strike you by day nor the moon by night.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: The Lord will keep you from all evil, he will keep your life, the Lord will keep your going out and your coming in from this time forth and forever.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: I read that because in that first verse when the psalmist says, I lift up my eyes to the hills, and then he asks, Where does my help come from?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the hills in the ancient Near East, the hills surrounding Jerusalem, were many times seen as an obstacle to travel.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: They were unsure terrain, it's where thieves would hide, and they would represent trouble.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so for the psalmist to write, I lift up my eyes to the hills, or I we could say, I consider my problems and my adversities.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Where does my help come?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then he provides the answer.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: My help comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And once again, the same God who created everything that we see is also interested in my life and what I'm going through.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he is loving and kind enough to help us in a very real way, especially if we ask.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_04: Very apropos verse.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for reading it for us.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_04: And thank you both for appearing on Centrally Speaking today.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_04: Any final comments uh before we close this podcast?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate the uh the center's uh ministry.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it has served our community for uh a long time, and I appreciate those that headed up now, as in Claire and her colleagues, and uh I appreciate those who have founded the center, uh, Christine Smith and company.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been a great blessing to our community for a long time.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: I would also want to say that Central Schweinfelder has been a wonderful partner for us in all of this.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Our camp is in your community center facility.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: We actually had a staff meeting in your pavilion last month, you know, because being everyone working at home, we haven't had an opportunity to get together.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so Emily, our director, said, you know what, let's have one outside.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: So we went to the pavilion and sat eight feet apart and wore our masks, but it was it was awesome.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: We could actually see each other, and that's really important for us.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: My dog, Gracie, is our therapy dog for the center, and so I brought her to the staff meeting and the joy that my dog had, this wonderful 10-year-old golden retriever at seeing everybody again.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because she, when I was going to the office, she was coming with me all the time and she comes to camp.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: She went running to the door, like, this is camp.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Where's the kids?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was just really uh, you know, so fun to see and how she greeted everybody.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so it just to be able to be use your facility to be able to uh take advantage of an opportunity to be together for us was was really awesome.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: And we thank you for that.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's a nice partnership we have.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_04: Well, thank you both for your your uh thoughts today, your your responses, and uh, I'm sure this will be a blessing to to many uh who listen.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_04: So Claire, wish you the best at the center.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks so much.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_04: Connecting further with you in the in the future.