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From Courtroom to Composer: How Steve Berman Built ComposerWorks · The Discussion Podcast

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  Steve, how are you? Rod, very good to see you and all good, thank you.
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  Good. Now, your profile is very interesting and I think it's very much of,
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  the essence of today, where somebody can move through different careers and
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  sometimes it's their passion that leads them to where they end up,
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  but their early career that gives them the foundation.
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  Now, your early career was in law, but I guess you were a musician as a child,
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  maybe going into a student, were you?
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  Correct. Music has always been where the heart is for me, particularly jazz
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  music. I've always been a jazz piano player ever since I was,
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  well, my mum says three years old.
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  But my folks wanted me to have a proper career, a sensible career.
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  So I became a lawyer, practiced law in Manchester for a few years.
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  And then I heard about Media City happening here in Salford,
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  which is the northern hub of the BBC and ICV.
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  And I thought, hmm, that's where I want to be one day.
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  So I took a leap of faith, ripped my teeth, left the law, having practiced for
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  five years, set up a business, which is the Composer Works.
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  And 15 years later, Touchwood seems to be going well.
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  That journey, I can imagine that you take elements of your different experiences into what you do.
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  Piano is quite a skilled instrument, and jazz as well is phonetic.
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  I can imagine that helped you in some of your studies, and then your studies
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  have helped you, and your work has helped you in your new professional life.
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  Very much the latter, yeah. So my music background, I actually trained in a
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  college called Berkeley in America, studied music and film music,
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  so that gave me a good foundation.
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  And also the law, it saves me quite a bit of cash because we do a lot of contracts here.
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  I should just roll it back and say the Composer Works is an agency that represents
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  composers who write music for TV shows and films.
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  So we do lots of different types of TV shows that I'll talk to you about.
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  But yeah, the lore comes into it a lot because I review contract after contract
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  every day for our composers.
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  So we want to get into that because actually it opens up a whole area of media
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  business, music business that people may not appreciate and actually protects
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  the composers, protects them commercially, etc., which is very important.
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  But can I come back to your jazz love?
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  Can you recall hearing your first jazz track and when it sort of ignited in
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  your ears and your brain as something that you loved?
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  1990, Manchester. There was a record shop that was closed down years ago.
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  It was on a ramp on Deansgate, can't remember the name of it.
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  And I heard a song called Canterloop Island, which is a Herbie Hancock song.
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  And I thought, oh my God, that's amazing.
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  And still to this day, I go on YouTube these days and watch exactly the same
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  rendition of that song that I heard that day.
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  So he's one of my jazz influences.
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  There you go. That's wonderful work. We're going to get into talking more with
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  Steve, talking about ComposerWorks, the business and what it does,
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  talking about jazz and talking about living in Altrium as well and the links to Manchester.
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  And Manchester actually is a media city because it certainly is that.
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  So lots to talk about. We'll take a break. We'll be back with Steve in a couple of minutes' time.
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  It's Rod Maxwell on the Late Late Lunch Show and I'm delighted to be speaking
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  with Steve Berman, somebody who lives in Altrium, who is the founder of a company
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  called The Composer Works and we're going to get into that is a lawyer by background
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  and you were mentioning there that you went out was it to the States to work?
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  Or study? Yeah, so to study, correct. Yeah, I was lucky enough to get a scholarship
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  to study jazz, piano and film scoring at Berkeley in America.
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  So I stayed there for three years, graduated, and then I managed to get a job with the writer.
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  My very first job outside of college was as an assistant to the writer of the
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  song, the Pointer Sisters song, Jump For My Love.
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  You know that song? Yes, absolutely.
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  Yes, yes. kind of by Steps a few years ago. And I used to open royalty checks
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  from her back in those days from all over the world on random TV shows,
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  like her song being played on, say, the Oprah Winfrey show or some other show.
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  And because of that one song, she was able to afford a nice Beverly Hills home. How about that? No.
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  That history of music and that period where somebody could write an iconic song
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  like that, handed over to the artist and yet they're they're getting their money
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  for us and the artist is getting their fame for it that,
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  that now seems like a distant dream compared to where we are today do you think
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  today everything has shifted so much where that type of story just doesn't happen as easily,
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  I mean, there's a lot of pod and the bunch of crap out there these days.
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  They don't write songs like they used to, but there are still hits, obviously.
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  There's still a lot of money to be made in the music industry,
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  including in the industry that I operate in.
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  For example, I can tell you if you like, I can give you some examples of some
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  of the shows that our composers have scored the music for, which have gone on to be successful.
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  So we have one composer called Paul Farah, and most people won't have heard
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  of his name but you will have heard his music probably every day in your home
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  and that's because he is the composer of the theme
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  and in-show music for shows like The Chase, The Weakest Link,
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  The Wheel you know that show Michael McIntyre's The Wheel? Yes, yes, yeah.
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  And these shows travel all over the world so when you have a hit theme like
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  that you can do pretty well out of that and it can be long-lasting income.
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  And what I love about that is, is the importance and the power that a good theme
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  tune can have for the brand of a show, for the excitement of a show.
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  You know, people know, you know, the blockbusters tune from the 1980s,
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  for example, or, or, or, yeah, I'm, I'm hearing some tunes in my head now that
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  I can't, I can't recall who you are,
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  but it, it, it brings a certain iconic value to the brand of a TV show,
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  and, and, and getting, being able to write in that format, that punchy format.
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  That requires a real skill, doesn't it?
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  It sure does, yeah. It's a skill that unfortunately I don't have,
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  which is why I'm the agent.
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  I'm the guy who has conversations with producers and directors to find out what
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  they need in the way of music for their TV show or film.
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  And then I join the dots and introduce a composer to that person.
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  But yeah, it takes a special kind of talent to create a theme that is enduring,
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  like for those game shows that I mentioned.
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  With your history of being around composers and working with composers,
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  do you believe that some of them just have an innate talent where they can just,
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  visualize something and it comes out?
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  Or do you think there are those who just have to work at it and work at it and
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  work at it and they iterate and they iterate and they'll chuck it on the floor
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  and then they'll come back to it?
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  I can imagine lots of them working in lots of different ways.
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  They do, yeah. I think the answer is both. There is some innate genius in some
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  of the composers in this world who just have amazing ideas.
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  Like just this morning, we're pitching for a new show and they've asked us to
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  come up with a theme of the show and one of our composers sent something and
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  I clicked on the link. I thought, what's this going to be? And he's pulled a rabbit out of the hat.
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  I mean, I'm so envious of the talent of some these people.
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  But yeah, it can also be a talent that is developed. So if there are students
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  listening to this podcast at the moment, that might be music students,
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  wanting to become composers or artists, then it is definitely,
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  I always tell composers and artists, develop your skill, find a niche as well
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  that makes you stand out from the crowd, and that can be learned.
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  I've got so many questions I want to ask you about this. And so we'll take a
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  break. We'll be back with Steve Berman. He is the founder of ComposerWorks.
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  He's based in Manchester.
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  How would you describe the company? Are you in the agency? Are you a management
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  group? What are you, Steve?
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  So first and foremost, we're an agency. And there's me and there's three other
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  composer agents. And we have maybe 35 composers dotted all over the world, mainly in the UK.
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  And the types of music that we write for include dramas. So we're doing dramas
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  at the moment for ITV and the BBC.
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  Video games, some big AAA games, documentaries, working on three or four documentaries
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  for Netflix and Apple at the moment. There's a broad range.
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  And, you know, even companies, I mean, you think of that, do,
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  do, do, do, you know, that little Intel thing, right?
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  But companies need little signatures as well. So you could be writing for brands,
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  you could be writing for the theatre, you could be writing for TV, a game show.
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  It's very wide-ranging. This might be interesting to your listeners,
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  but what you were just saying made me think of, say, Justin Timberlake,
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  who came up with the McDonald's little ident.
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  I'm loving it. It was Justin Timberlake. Justin Timberlake. I never knew that.
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  So every time you hear that on TV or on the radio, composers receive royalties, music royalties, okay?
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  So for example, ITV, their royalty rate is about 90 pounds per minute.
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  So every minute that that ident is played, I know it's only a few seconds long, but it all adds up,
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  The composer, the artist can do pretty well if you times it by however many
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  countries that little bit of music is played in.
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  You could possibly retire on one successful theme ident.
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  I want to come into that with you because I've always been fascinated about
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  how that is policed and how that is monitored and how that's measured and the
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  role of PRS and all of that type of stuff.
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  But we'll come back. It's a fascinating area that you work in, Steve.
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  I'm talking today to an alternate man called Steve Berman.
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  He is the founder of the Composer Works. We're talking about that business.
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  It's an agency for composers who are working across television,
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  film, video games, music, all sorts of things.
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  It's right here in the northwest in Manchester.
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  We'll be back with him in a couple of minutes' time.
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  Steve, with your background, both in law and your role in composer works,
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  I can imagine today that the digital era has both been a blessing and a curse
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  for composers, for anybody making anything original, because,
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  it means that you can disperse your stuff so much more easily,
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  but it's easy for anybody to take it.
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  And you maybe not know that it's being used.
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  I mean, how is that universe governed so that composers and writers are getting.
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  Their justice payments for their work?
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  It's a great question. And the
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  short answer is it is ultimately impossible to police 100% of the time.
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  But there are quite strict and effective copyright laws in the UK.
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  So if you decide to rip off the music for The Chase and use it yourself,
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  you can do that, but you risk infringing copyright laws.
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  So you could be sued by the owner of that piece of music.
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  So that's that. And as for change itself, so I started this business in 2011,
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  which was a few years after YouTube came about.
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  There's always been change in my business. There's change all the time with
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  AI, with the proliferation of all these platforms, with the threats to the BBC
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  now because everyone's switching from the BBC to watch Netflix, et cetera.
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  There's always change, but I'm one of those who embraces change.
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  I think it's great because think about all these platforms, all these TV shows that are being made.
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  And yeah, the industry is in a state of flux, but I say bring it on.
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  There's always work out there if you can find it.
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  I mean, I'm trying to think as you're talking there about some of the big iconic
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  court battles that have gone on where a song has been ripped from another song
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  and the originator of the song, the original composer has sued somebody.
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  And, you know, I've often thought to myself, how material does the use have
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  to be before the track actually is a copy?
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  Is there any guidance around that? Because if you take a couple of bars or a
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  couple of pieces of notes or whatever, signature notes, is it easy to measure
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  or is it more about the context of the piece, if you like?
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  Wow, you really put me on the spot here, Rod. testing my knowledge of copyright
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  law and legal skills. But I think I can answer it.
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  No, no, not at all. I can try. The short answer is the law isn't specific.
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  Copyright law isn't specific. It says, and I'm paraphrasing,
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  if you copy a substantial part of a piece of music, then you've ripped it off.
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  But the law doesn't define, the copyright act doesn't define what a substantial part is.
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  So it could be just a little hook. So let's say the weakest link,
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  Remember the theme? Do-do-do-do.
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  Remember that? That in itself could be a substantial part because that's the
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  only bit that people remember.
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  But another piece of music might be a whole chorus before it could be construed,
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  deemed as a substantial part.
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  So the short answer to the question is, it's clear as mud. And that's why these
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  four cases say between the, who was it, Marvin Gaye's estate and Ed Sheeran.
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  Remember a few years back that he was sued because the Marvin Gaye estate thought
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  that he'd infringed the song that I can only hum. I can't remember the name.
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  Let's get it on, maybe. I don't know. Anyway, it went on and on for many weeks, and Ed Sheeran won.
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  But it just goes to show it's not clear-cut. It's never clear-cut, these things.
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  And I guess in some ways, you can accidentally and coincidentally pick something
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  up, because if you're listening to that many different pieces of music,
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  and there's so much of it now, and people can
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  hear it in so many different places, you could coincidentally end up taking
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  a couple of notes or something that is deemed to be significant,
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  possibly without initially recognizing that.
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  Yeah, I think that's true. I think that infringement is only usually,
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  well, it's more of an issue if you have notice of a piece of music.
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  In other words, if they can prove that a person like Ed Sheeran,
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  knew about this particular song, Marvin Gaye's had it in his studio as he was
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  recording his new song, sort of had access to it, then it's more likely that
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  he would have been found to have infringed.
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  But if there's just no way of joining the dots and connecting one song with
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  another, then it would be harder to prove. So somebody would have to have knowledge of a prior song.
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  Yeah, it absolutely makes sense. And it's fascinating, actually.
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  And I guess it's one of those situations where, as an artist,
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  you never really want to go to court on this stuff because it's going to cost
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  you a lot of money, whether you are defending or you're prosecuting.
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  But it's happening. I want to take a break and come back and talk about composer
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  works and how you represent and work with these guys.
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  And actually working in Manchester as well, because Manchester is definitely
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  a media hub these days, and that, I can imagine, has a lot of benefits.
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  So today, I'm absolutely delighted to be speaking with Steve Berman.
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  He's the founder of The Composer Works, a UK-based composer agency,
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  and we'll be back with him in a couple of minutes time.
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  Steve, can I take you back to 2012 and when you founded the business?
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  Did it feel risky moving from something you were working in the law and I guess in some ways that is.
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  Pretty stable in terms of profession to move into this area did that feel particularly risky?
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  Very much so and it's a great question and I will answer it but you just got
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  me thinking about the infringement conversation we were having before there's
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  only been one instance where we've been in slightly hot water.
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  And would you want to know about it? I would love to know.
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  So I won't tell you who the composer is or what the music was,
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  but one of our composers did some music for a BBC show.
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  And it was a great show. Everyone was happy with the music.
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  And then one day, I got a call out of the blue from the George Gershwin estate,
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  saying, we think your composers copied our piece of music, our George Gershwin's.
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  A George Gershwin song. And I was like,
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  Okay, interesting. Anyway, so the long and short of it is nothing happened.
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  It didn't go any further, but suffice it to say it's not pleasant when you get
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  a call like that because it makes you think, oh crikey, have we done something wrong here?
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  So yeah, there you go, little anecdote for you.
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  And I'm just thinking back, and I'm not going to use Google,
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  but the Gershwin era was what, 1930s, 1940s was it?
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  It was, and the song that they said that they thought had been too close was I Got Rhythm.
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  Really? And there were similarities, but too far away, we thought.
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  So we didn't think we were in too much danger.
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  But, I mean, that estate and whoever's representing them and the history of
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  Gershwin, etc., it's almost like a giant going after a kid type thing, isn't it?
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  Yeah. When you got that call or that email or whatever, did you think, oh my god?
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  After I'd gone to the toilet to be sick, I did compose myself,
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  speak to the composer, and we decided together that we didn't believe that they
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  had a case that were distant, kind of,
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  yeah, there were some similarities, but we were talking about the substantial
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  thing before substantial part.
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  We didn't think it was anywhere near enough, and then we thought they were just trying it on.
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  So this brings me up to a topic related to that, actually, which is...
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  Is there a time limit to which a piece of music is subject to copyright? Copyright.
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  Yeah, in the UK, it's 70 years from the death of the author.
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  So, for example, I don't know, The Beatles, the Lennon and McCartney songs will
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  be out of copyright from 70 years after Paul McCartney dies,
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  which I hope is in for a long time.
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  Then it becomes what's called public domain. Anybody can use it.
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  You can do rearrangements of it. You can put it on YouTube. You can do what you like with it.
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  Happy Birthday is a song that only came out copyright in 2020.
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  There you go. It was actually in copyright until 2020.
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  So everybody who has ever recorded that, for whatever reason, has had a pay.
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  Do you pay a standard amount or do you pay per the amount that you actually bring in in revenue?
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  Well, it's all negotiable. So that's how artists, and,
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  not a lot of the public knows this, but a lot of artists make significant money
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  on fees that TV shows, Netflix, ITV, whatever, pay for use of their commercial
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  music. So say the band Queen.
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  If a film wants to license 20 seconds of a Queen song in a film,
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  it could cost upwards of half a million pounds for 20 seconds of music.
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  It's staggering. Yeah, it's mad. So that is a huge instrument.
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  And if a band covers another band's track,
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  and actually I remember back in the 80s, there was a massive movement of Stars
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  on 45 records that were merging different tracks, but were actually re-recorded by studio artists.
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  But you basically have to...
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  Do you pre-negotiate those type of rates, or is there a standard sort of book list, if you like?
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  It's, at least my understanding, is it's negotiated. So it's conversation that
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  somebody like me would have on behalf of an artist with a record label,
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  and they would, sorry, on behalf of a client with a record label,
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  and they would tell us, well, the desk is how much, how many seconds do you
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  want to use the music for? Where's it going to be?
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  And what's the film about? Can we see a script?
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  Some of them are very particular about where they will let the music,
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  the song, be used. Some say no. No.
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  Yeah. Well, so can I come back to the Beatles for a minute? Because I think
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  they were one of the first bands, at least I get the feeling they were one of
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  the first bands to sell their catalog of music. And I think they sold it to Sony.
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  Did they? I think that's right. Yeah.
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  And and they sold it for a big upfront fee,
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  and i guess that means that they have the money now rather than getting it across
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  the lifetime and of course beyond the 70 years of paul mccartney's life he's
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  the last for surviving beetle do you i mean,
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  i guess there's a bit of risk on both sides for that because how do you value
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  that and know the revenue you're going to get from it and now actually after
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  seven years after paul mccartney dies sony no longer have the ownership of that Would that be right?
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  Yeah, that's correct. Yes, but 70 years is obviously quite a long time away.
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  So it's a safe bet, really, to buy the Beatles catalogue. I thought it ended
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  up with Michael Jackson or his estate at one point. Were you right?
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  The Beatles catalogue. Yeah, but maybe it went back to Sony.
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  Yeah, maybe. Michael Jackson did buy a lot, and that was an investment play, wasn't it?
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  For sure, because every time, again, going back to what we were saying before,
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  every time it's on the radio, any of their songs on the TV.
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  Then royalties roll in yeah I
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  know here at Radio Walty we have to keep a catalogue of everything we play
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  it's near a catalogue and we can be asked then for a record of that for PRS
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  purposes basically so you know and you pay your PRS license up front but then you have to give a,
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  a record occasionally of what you have played. And just to make sense of that.
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  Further, what happens is you pay your license fees, pubs pay the license fees,
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  ITV pays millions of pounds a year in license fees to the PRS,
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  and they have this huge pot of money.
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  And then every quarter, artists and music publishers like me,
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  we log on to the PRS website because it's royalties day.
• 24:28
  Because what happens is PRS divides that pot up into distributions to its members,
• 24:34
  artists, composers, publishers, and we all get our royalty shares. So, yeah.
• 24:41
  And I've got one more question on that because my son actually just got a royalty
• 24:45
  check for a song that he had written or an album that he recorded with his band.
• 24:50
  And, you know, it struck me when he got that.
• 24:55
  You know, with the digital age now, whereas before, there was a certain time limit on music.
• 25:02
  Now with the digital age, people are playing this stuff all the time on Spotify,
• 25:07
  on Apple Music, etc., which means that the economic lifetime of a piece of music
• 25:14
  has expanded unbelievably, Steve.
• 25:18
  It's amazing, isn't it, that a piece of music that's written in a studio in
• 25:22
  Altingham could be played all over the world for years to come.
• 25:27
  That is the beauty of the digital age that we live in.
• 25:31
  It's one of the massive advantages of it.
• 25:34
  We could just talk about this all day, but I'm going to take a break and come
• 25:37
  back and talk a little bit more about ComposerWorks. So today,
• 25:40
  a fascinating discussion with Steve Berman.
• 25:43
  Steve, it is a fascinating area.
• 25:46
  And I can imagine that the rate at which the music industry is changing and
• 25:51
  moving and digitizing, et cetera, you must always feel that there's new things coming out.
• 25:58
  And with the work that you're doing at ComposerWorks, I think what's interesting
• 26:04
  actually to me is that no matter how.
• 26:09
  Complicated digital media gets, music is still really important to it,
• 26:14
  to set a scene, to set a vibe, to set an atmosphere.
• 26:18
  Probably, and sometimes underappreciated, really.
• 26:22
  Funny, I was having the same conversation with somebody the other day that it's intangible.
• 26:26
  Can't see it can't smell it obviously hear it but yet,
• 26:32
  Does it heighten the drama or emotion in a TV series?
• 26:37
  Or is it a bit of a call to action? Exactly. Think about the 10 o'clock news.
• 26:42
  BBC One, that theme. You hear the news. Oh, you hear those big drums at the
• 26:46
  beginning. You think, oh, right, it's news time.
• 26:48
  Sit on the couch. So it is a call to action as well. It has so many functions.
• 26:53
  As you were saying before, it's brand identity. Think of the music for Peppa Pig or Bluey.
• 26:59
  Yeah. It helps sell merchandise. familiarity,
• 27:04
  so steve i'm gonna ask you the the sort of it's a bit of a dirty question but
• 27:10
  that the money side of this i mean,
• 27:13
  clearly it must be worth something because there's a lot of people writing music
• 27:17
  as an important part in in a lot of areas whether it be a commercial whether it be a film etc but.
• 27:25
  I you know is there a lot of money associated with doing scores and and theme,
• 27:31
  This is the real reason you asked me here today. It's fine, I can tell you.
• 27:35
  Yeah, it can be pretty lucrative if you get the right kind of work,
• 27:38
  starting at the lower end.
• 27:40
  If you are lucky enough to be commissioned to write a theme tune for a game
• 27:46
  show on BBC or ITV, then you might receive something like between £7,000 and £12,000.
• 27:52
  So that would be a theme and some music beds and stings and that kind of thing.
• 27:56
  Then it goes up from there.
• 27:58
  You might write some music for a kids' animation series or Netflix or BBC,
• 28:05
  and you may receive somewhere in the region of £1,500 per episode,
• 28:11
  and there might be 50 episodes.
• 28:13
  So it tots up a drama, a six-part drama for Paramount, probably £12,500 per
• 28:21
  episode, something like that.
• 28:23
  I'm speaking low because I don't want too many people to hear this.
• 28:26
  What else? Video games. I'm sure you've got some video game fans in your audience.
• 28:32
  Those top tier video games, they will pay usually 1,000, 1,200,
• 28:38
  sometimes more pounds a minute of score that a composer provides.
• 28:45
  So if you think about a video game, it could be for hours of music.
• 28:50
  So times however many hours, minutes, whatever, by 1,200 pounds,
• 28:54
  you could do pretty well out of that. So yes, it is pretty lucrative.
• 28:58
  But at the same time, it's fiercely competitive in our industry.
• 29:02
  Everyone wants to be a composer, because in their bedrooms want to be composers.
• 29:06
  It's got more competitive over the years.
• 29:08
  And as compositor works, i i'm thinking about
• 29:13
  the range of activities you may or may not get involved with which is you know
• 29:16
  linking composers with opportunities or representing them in a contract discussion
• 29:22
  what are the range of areas that you,
• 29:26
  work with composers and work with the industry in,
• 29:29
  so as i said before i like to think of myself as somebody who enables conversations
• 29:34
  to happen So, as part of my role, I introduce composers to people who make decisions on music,
• 29:42
  for media, but my role extends more than that.
• 29:45
  I kind of nurture composers' careers, hold their hands a little bit and try
• 29:49
  and understand what they want in their career, what they want out of it,
• 29:53
  and how they want to develop.
• 29:55
  And of course, we do the sort of day-to-day stuff, which is negotiate their
• 29:59
  deals and their contracts and bill on their behalf and chase unpaid invoices,
• 30:05
  which will be good on what happens from time to time in our industry.
• 30:09
  So there's quite a wide and varied element to our business. But the most competitive
• 30:14
  part, the most tricky part, is negotiating those all-important rights.
• 30:19
  Because if you're able to keep rights as a composer, you're publishing,
• 30:24
  you're copyright, then that is valuable because the more rights you keep,
• 30:29
  the more royalties that you will earn over the years.
• 30:33
  And you're representing people from right across the world, I can imagine. It's a global market.
• 30:39
  Sure is, yeah. And that's the beauty of this kind of work that I can do it anywhere.
• 30:45
  And the composer can do it anywhere. In fact, most of our composers have worked
• 30:48
  from home. They've just got a studio in their garden.
• 30:50
  But yet, today, one of our composers living in Northern Ireland is writing the
• 30:55
  music for a Netflix series that's being produced in Los Angeles.
• 30:59
  There's many examples like that. I've got another composer team,
• 31:02
  brothers, two brothers in Los Angeles, writing a series for the BBC in Manchester.
• 31:11
  So it knows no boundaries, our world, which is good.
• 31:17
  And do you double yourself? Do you write at all? I've tried,
• 31:21
  but people laugh at me when I write music.
• 31:25
  I'm good at emulating other people. I play a bit of Burby, as I was saying before,
• 31:29
  jazz piano greats but no i'm not a composer and i accept that i'm not a composer
• 31:34
  and i leave it to the experts,
• 31:37
  i do think you have to have a certain chip where you can almost,
• 31:42
  live outside of your own head and write something and it and not to feel too
• 31:47
  subjective about it and and and but to be able to critique it at the same time
• 31:53
  it's it's for some people it's a gift that they have i don't know whether,
• 31:58
  you're inherently born with it or you can develop it, but you definitely need
• 32:01
  to almost have an alter ego when you're writing something that allows you to
• 32:06
  look at it as a critique, if you like.
• 32:09
  You do, yeah. And as you're talking, I'm just trying to dig out an email because
• 32:13
  we've got some feedback today on a theme, or a piece of music rather,
• 32:17
  that our composer has written as part of a TV show.
• 32:21
  Do you want to know the feedback from the director?
• 32:26
  He said this. Here we go. Thanks for these. Sorry for the delay.
• 32:32
  Version D is everyone's favorite, but the feedback from the commissioner is,
• 32:36
  D is my favorite, but I'm getting cozy crime drama, though, not entertainment.
• 32:40
  It's a little bit too heavy, dramatic, driving.
• 32:43
  It could be the theme for Ludwig. It's not saying comedy entertainment.
• 32:48
  Also, can you big up the Christmas feel?
• 32:52
  So a composer's got to have a tough skin. and take on this feedback,
• 32:56
  go back, get it right, send it again, and hope that they've nailed it.
• 33:00
  And you have to be able to interpret what that means and how to write that in. It's incredible.
• 33:07
  Exactly. It's not an exact science. You know, what to you might sound great
• 33:11
  to me might sound pretty rubbish.
• 33:13
  So you have got to have a thick skin. Some composers have got thicker skins
• 33:17
  than others. Some take it personally.
• 33:19
  But I always say to my clients, don't take it personally unless it gets ridiculous
• 33:25
  and they take the lick, in which case just walk away.
• 33:27
  But that rarely happens. usually you get through these creative differences
• 33:32
  regarding the uk and the talent for for writing because i i i guess for a long time the uk,
• 33:40
  was both in whether in creative writing not just music music writing as well,
• 33:47
  we we were exceptionally good our youth.
• 33:52
  From the people you work with in this country, do you still think that we pack
• 33:56
  a punch on a global basis for our musical score writing compared to other nations
• 34:02
  or other nations now that are exceptional?
• 34:06
  We've always had a strength in our country, in the UK, for special talent in the music world.
• 34:13
  And of course, there are other extremely talented artists in other places in the world as well.
• 34:20
  But it never ceases to amaze me that we get a call from Disney in Los Angeles
• 34:25
  or Netflix, and they want one of our UK composers.
• 34:29
  I think, why don't you guys use a US composer? I mean, I'm not complaining,
• 34:33
  of course, but it makes me think that they obviously do have huge respect for UK talent.
• 34:40
  I'm going to take a break and then wrap up with you today. I'm speaking with
• 34:43
  Steve Berman. He is the founder of a Manchester-based company called The Composer
• 34:47
  Works. We've been talking about what they do.
• 34:50
  We've been talking about the industry, which is fascinating.
• 34:53
  And I think you realize why media TV film in Manchester has been so important.
• 35:00
  And we're building a big center of excellence around the whole area,
• 35:05
  actually. It goes well beyond the Manchester area, doesn't it, Steve?
• 35:09
  Well, it sure does, yeah. Yeah, but it's great being in Manchester because most
• 35:12
  of my competitors' agencies are based in London.
• 35:15
  So it's nice because the BBC want to try and give work to companies like mine outside of London.
• 35:22
  Well, as they should as well. We'll come back and we'll wrap up with Steve in,
• 35:27
  a couple of minutes time.
• 35:28
  It's Rod Maxwell on the lately launch show Radio Alty. And the launch discussion
• 35:31
  today has been about music, the music industry, music composing.
• 35:36
  And we've been talking about the ComposerWorks, a UK based composer agency and
• 35:41
  the founder is Steve Berman from Ultringham and.
• 35:46
  We met on a dog walk I meet so many people and do you know the thing I find
• 35:50
  about dog walk Steve is you should never assume what a person does,
• 35:55
  because you never know who you're going to come across and they could be anything
• 36:00
  from an astronaut down to a cleaner you know.
• 36:05
  And it's a wonderful thing because it's a it's an environment where everybody's
• 36:10
  almost the same as long as their dog's not naughty you know what I mean,
• 36:14
  It's so true. Just this morning, in fact, there was this guy,
• 36:18
  big bloke, walking on the field with his dogs.
• 36:22
  And it was chucking it down. So we both found shelter and we got chatting.
• 36:27
  And at first when he opened his mouth, I thought, oh, this guy's going to be like a bit rough.
• 36:33
  Maybe he's going to pick a fight with me for no reason. But then he opened his
• 36:36
  mouth and we started chatting. And you can get to know somebody just by standing
• 36:41
  under a shelter, walking your dogs and chatting away.
• 36:44
  And I love that and I have to say Ultrigan has a nice atmosphere about it and
• 36:52
  I mean you're living here but working in Manchester but really I mean,
• 36:56
  it's no distance away is it but at the same time it can feel like it is,
• 37:00
  We're so lucky to live in Altrincham. I just think we live in a bubble,
• 37:03
  really, because we have everything in Alty, the restaurants,
• 37:06
  greenery, green space. And as you say, not far from Manchester with the help of the Metrolink.
• 37:11
  And it's lovely to be able to run a music media business like this that serves
• 37:16
  the whole of the UK and beyond.
• 37:19
  And it's me, little old me, basically in Altrincham.
• 37:23
  I love that. And I think it's so important in this day and age to illustrate
• 37:28
  to people that you can become a global organization, you can work globally in
• 37:35
  a big industry and do it from.
• 37:40
  A room in Ultringham almost. I know you're in Media City now,
• 37:43
  but it's really quite interesting that you can do that.
• 37:47
  It is, and there's many times that I've said to the folks at Media City,
• 37:49
  you should move to Ultringham and build up there instead so I don't have to
• 37:54
  get on the Metrolink. I'm only joking.
• 37:56
  Thank goodness that BBC and ICB made that decision to move to the Northwest
• 38:00
  because it has helped businesses like mine. And I'm sure some of your other
• 38:04
  listeners as well have benefited from that move too.
• 38:08
  And even students, you know, the fact that we've got Salford University,
• 38:11
  their big media university, the fact that these students are so close to the industry, it means it,
• 38:20
  doesn't feel artificial when they're learning about it because they're doing
• 38:23
  it in the environment of the industry.
• 38:26
  Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's great. I see students all the time here at MediaCity.
• 38:30
  And by the way, it might be worth saying that if there are students listening,
• 38:36
  who are budding composers, they're very welcome to drop me a line,
• 38:39
  get in touch, send me some music on links, not attachments, because that'll just fill my inbox.
• 38:46
  Because we're always looking for new talent. We always have our eyes and ears open.
• 38:50
  And I go to town regularly and watch artists play and that kind of thing.
• 38:55
  So they're welcome to drop me a line.
• 38:59
  Do you listen to music differently now, where you're looking for the hook?
• 39:04
  Do you feel you're always working the music? Whenever I see a film,
• 39:08
  whenever I watch a drama, I'm half listening to what's going on,
• 39:12
  and the other half is listening to the music. I can't help it.
• 39:16
  It's the first thing I think before I decide whether I like the film or drama.
• 39:20
  I think, do I like the score first? Whereas most people, they don't even notice it.
• 39:25
  Yeah. Well, it's been a real pleasure speaking to you. I've loved discovering
• 39:29
  more about what you do, what the business is about and the industry.
• 39:33
  Thank you for being the guest and I look forward to seeing you on the field sometime soon.
• 39:38
  You bet. Thanks, Rod. Pleasure to chat.