Latest / Edan Haddock - Total Talent / Presence Isn’t Productivity

Transcript

Presence Isn’t Productivity · Edan Haddock - Total Talent

• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back to my podcast.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is Eden Haddock, and you're listening to Eden Haddock Total Talent.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: A podcast about the talent industry, the future of work, and occasionally pushing back a little when the conversation gets a bit how should I say rigid?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, rigid.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, before we get into today's episode, I want to say thank you.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: This episode actually came from a request from someone in the Total Talent community.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And she reached out and said, Eden, what are your thoughts on return to office, hybrid work, and work from home?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I thought that's a big one.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because the topic has become one of the most polarizing conversations in modern work.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Some leaders are saying everyone back to the office, five days, no exceptions.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Others are saying, hey, fully remote forever.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Never step into an office again.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then for the most part, we have the hybrid models.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Three days in, two days out, two days in, three days out.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, increasingly we're seeing mandates, rules, policies, declarations from the top.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, the conversation has never actually been about location.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's been about philosophy.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that philosophy is something I've believed in for years.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Work life integration.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Not balance, integration.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because balance assumes something that I don't think is true.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Balance assumes work and life are opposing forces.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Two things fighting each other.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Two things that need to be kept apart.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I've never believed that.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Not even for a second.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about the myth of work-life balance.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Work-life balance became one of the most popular phrases in HR and over the last 20 years.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds nice, it looks good on a careers page.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: But personally, I've always found it a bit misleading.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because balance suggests something like scales.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Work on one side, life on the other.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if work gets heavier, then life suffers.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: If life gets heavier, then work suffers.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not how real life works.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Take a moment and think about your day today, what you did.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Think about any other day, right?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: You might start the morning answering emails, then take your kid to school, jump back into a meeting, go for a walk at lunch, take a call while driving, finish work early and mow the lawn, or go for a bike ride, my personal favorite, or cook dinner, or jump back online later that evening.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's what I describe, right, as integration.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's not balance, that's integration.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Work is part of life.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Life is part of work.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the modern world actually allows this more than ever before.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Technology enables it.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Flexible schedules enable it.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Trust enables it.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: But rigid systems, rigid rules, rigid mandates, they break it.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Moving on now to the return to office wars.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to talk about the elephant in the room.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Return to office mandates.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Over the past few years, we've seen companies all over the world, and they are saying everyone back.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Five days, no exceptions.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And often the reasoning is something like culture, collaboration, productivity.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, to be clear, offices absolutely have value.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: I love our office at Movember.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: They can be fabulous places for connection, for creativity, for energy, for building relationships.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: But forcing people into a building does not magically create those things.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Culture is not created by location.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Culture is actually created by leadership and by employees.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: We actually know that.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's built by trust, by clarity, and by purpose.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, sometimes the office is amazing.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it isn't.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's noisy.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's distracting.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people get more done at home.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they get more done in the office.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Which brings us to a very important point.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Productivity is not measured by presence.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Time at desk is not performance.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: One of the strangest things about work is how obsessed we are with time.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Hours worked, time at desk, attendance.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: But let me ask you something.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever sat at your desk for eight hours and achieved very little?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Of course you have.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: We all have.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And have you ever worked two hours and delivered something incredible?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Also, yes.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: So this is simplifying things right back to basics, really.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why do we keep pretending that time equals productivity?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Never has, never will.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Performance is about outcomes.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Results, impact, value created, not hours logged, not seats filled, not desks occupied.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: If someone produces extraordinary outcomes in six hours, they're not less productive than someone who produces mediocre outcomes in ten.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, some so many organizations still operate like those factories from the 1950s.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Clock in, clock out, be seen, be present, be supervised.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: But knowledge work, it doesn't operate like that.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And as we know, talent, I mean, talent doesn't respond well to it either.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: The future of work is outcome-based.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is where I think the conversation needs to move.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Away from location, away from hours, away from presenteism, and towards outcomes.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: What matters is what was delivered, what impact was created, what problem was solved, what value was generated.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: If someone does brilliant work, does it really matter where they sat while doing it?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Office, home, cafe, park bench, V line train, which is me quite frequently.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: It shouldn't.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And in many organizations, it already doesn't.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: The best companies are starting to realize something powerful.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: When you give people autonomy, they often give you excellence.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: When flexibility becomes that word again that I was searching for, rigid.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Here's something interesting.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Even some of the ideas that started as progressive are starting to become rigid.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Take the rise of the four-day workweek.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I actually think the idea is fascinating.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we're seeing for some organizations it works brilliantly.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: But when we turn it into a universal rule, something strange happens.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: We replace one rigid structure with another.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Five days become four, but the structure stays rigid.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of asking what outcomes need to be achieved, we start asking which days are people allowed to work?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the wrong question.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, work isn't about days, it's about results.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: If someone achieves something extraordinary in three days, then great.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: If it takes five, also fine.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: The focus should be on outcomes, not calendars.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And now there's another layer to this conversation happening right now with Victoria and the legislative conversation, you know, specifically in Victoria.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: There has been much discussion about potential legislation that would support employees having the right to two days working from home.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's fascinating.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because when legislation enters workforce flexibility, it changes the conversation again.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: For organizations that have enforced strict return to office mandates, this could create tension, legal obligations, policy redesign, leadership reflection, and it raises an interesting question.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: If governments start protecting flexible work, what happens to organizations that resist it?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do they adapt?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do they fight it?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or do they discover that flexibility actually works?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because the truth is, most employees don't want to avoid work.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: They want to do meaningful work in environments that respect their lives.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Trust, the real foundation, right?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: At the center of this conversation is something that is beautifully simple.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Trust.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you trust your people, flexible work works.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't trust your people, no model works.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Not office, not hybrid, not remote.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because the issue isn't location.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: The issue is trust.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And high-performing cultures are built on trust.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Trust that people will deliver.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Trust that people care about outcomes.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Trust that adults can manage their time.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: When leaders trust their teams, something powerful happens.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: People step up.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: They take ownership.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: They take pride in their work.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, the organization benefits.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: So where do I land on all this?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Very clearly, I'm a fierce advocate for work-life integration.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Not balance, integration.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because life isn't something that happens outside of work.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Life happens during work.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: During the day, during the week, during the moments between meetings.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Integration means flexibility.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Integration means autonomy.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Integration means trusting people to design their days in ways that allow them to do great work and live great lives.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And when organizations embrace this philosophy, something beautiful happens.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Work stops feeling like something people escape from and starts feeling like something that fits into your life.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'll embarrass him by using his name, but my colleague Keo and I were talking just this week that work doesn't feel like work.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that says it all.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because our work and our life are integrated.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: What talent leaders should do next?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: For talent leaders, HR leaders, people experience leaders, this moment presents an opportunity.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of arguing about location, lead the conversation about outcomes.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Help organizations define what success looks like.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Build systems that measure impact, not presence.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Design cultures where autonomy and accountability coexist, where flexibility is normal, where trust is foundational.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because the future of work actually isn't office versus remote.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's something much bigger.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a redefinition of what productivity actually means.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So to the community member who asked for this episode, thank you.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because these conversations matter.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the decisions leaders make today will influence how millions of people experience work tomorrow.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: My hope is that we move away from rigid rules and we don't introduce new ones like the four-day week.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually not into it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: I want us to move away from outdated metrics, away from the idea that productivity equals time and towards something better.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: A world where work fits into life and not the other way around.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because work isn't a place.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Work is what we do.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And when we get it right, everyone wins.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again for listening to Eden Haddoctotal Talent.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: If this episode got you thinking, share it with someone who cares about the future of work.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll see you next time.