Latest / The Action Catalyst / REMASTERED: Building a Storybrand, with Donald Miller (Branding, Promotion, Marketing, Communication)

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REMASTERED: Building a Storybrand, with Donald Miller (Branding, Promotion, Marketing, Communication) · The Action Catalyst

0:32
Host: Donald Miller is one of the masters of story and he's a
0:36
New York Times best selling author of Blue Like Jazz, Scary
0:39
Close, and Building a Story Brand. So Donald, welcome back.
0:43
Donald Miller: It's good to be back.
0:44
Host: So how'd this come about?
0:46
Donald Miller: Well, most people know me as a writer, if they
0:48
know me at all, they would know that. I've written a bunch of
0:51
books, and they're most of them are memoir flavor, their self
0:55
helpy kind of books, but they're told in first person memoir
0:58
perspective, by the time you write your eighth memoir, you're
1:00
just a clinical narcissist, right? So it's time for a pivot
1:03
of some sort. And I developed this framework based on
1:07
narrative after studying stories to write screenplays and books
1:09
for 15 years, I developed a framework that I could use with
1:14
my own conference company to filter my messaging down. And,
1:18
and what that basically means is, I figured out how I could
1:21
use the elements of story, which I'm convinced of the most, is
1:24
the most powerful tool to compel him to bring to talk about my
1:28
company in such a way that people would be interested and
1:30
want to listen and engage. And, you know, the theory was that
1:34
would turn into higher revenue and higher customer engagement,
1:36
all this kind of thing, develop that framework, took my own
1:38
company through that framework, and we quadrupled in revenue.
1:41
And we saw that, oh, this framework that we use, just to
1:45
clarify our own corporate message with my conference
1:48
company is more valuable than anything we've ever come up
1:51
with. So we sort of leaked the fact that we had it. And we
1:55
didn't really put together a website or anything just sort of
1:57
leaked that we had this framework that could help a
1:59
company clarify their message. The first company was Procter
2:01
and Gamble, and then Ford, Lincoln, and then the White
2:05
House. And then and then we were off to the races, and shut down
2:08
the old conference company. And it for me, it was a wonderful
2:10
thing, because, you know, I really did feel like in my
2:13
writing career, I'd set it all. And I'm not the sort of rider
2:16
who can come up with a book every year and ride it. Life
2:20
needs to happen for me, you know, I need to, to engage them
2:23
stories. And basically, what I do when I write a book is I look
2:26
back and I go, Okay, two years ago, what were you struggling
2:29
with, that you are no longer struggling with? And if that's
2:32
interesting, I'll write a book about it. So you know, it's been
2:34
relationships, it's been faith, it's been, you know, all sorts
2:37
of other things. It's been meaning of life with one of the
2:40
books. And, and I didn't have any more of those, you know, it
2:44
wasn't that struggle with anything in a long time, I
2:46
guess. And so I thought, Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna turn this
2:49
framework into a book.
2:51
Host: And what is it? So what is the story brand framework?
2:57
Donald Miller: It is based on the seven plot points that
3:01
happen in almost every story. And I really mean, I mean, 99%
3:06
of stories follow a narrative arc that is exactly the same,
3:09
right. So whether we're talking about Bridget Jones diary, or
3:13
Rain Man, or Hunger Games, or Star Wars, or Romeo and Juliet,
3:18
it's the same story, basically, you just interchange some of the
3:22
characters and some of the conflict. But what most people
3:25
don't know is there is an order in which a story will unfold.
3:29
And if you disobey the rules of that order, you will lose the
3:32
audience, right. And so if you know what those story formulas
3:36
are, there are seven of them. You walk into a movie, and
3:40
within 15 minutes, you can pretty much tell what this is,
3:42
this is monster in the house, or this is quest, or this is
3:44
whatever these seven basic of story formulas. What that said
3:48
to me early on when I was thinking about this process was,
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this is a language that human beings speak. And most companies
3:56
don't know how to speak this language. Here's a summary of
4:01
it. Every story is a character, a hero, that is facing a villain
4:06
that is causing them external, internal and philosophical
4:08
problems. They are in search of a guide, another character who
4:12
can help them overcome their conflict and experience a happy
4:16
ending instead of a tragic ending. That's basically sort so
4:19
that's a lot. But it what it has to do with business, though, is
4:23
these seven basic principles.
4:26
Host: Ok so hold on, so head forward before we dive into the
4:27
principles, so So that is, like you said, the narrative arc of
4:32
every story pretty much every story not everyone, pretty much
4:35
but and that's we're gonna get to that because that's the
4:38
solution here is understanding that but but, you know, the
4:41
subtitle of the book is clarify your message. So customers will
4:45
will listen. That's right. What are some of the biggest mistakes
4:49
that you see marketers making?
4:51
Donald Miller: There are a lot of mistakes that companies make
4:53
but here's the big one. Companies assume that customers
4:56
are going to give them an amount of time in order To understand
5:00
what they offer, and they're not, they're not, they're going
5:04
to give you zero time, they're going to spend four seconds on
5:08
your website, they're going to pass by your Billboard at 85
5:10
miles per hour, they're going to swipe up on their Instagram feed
5:15
and your ads not going to get any attention. What this means
5:18
is you have to communicate very clearly why they should stop and
5:24
pay attention. And you have to do it in a few seconds.
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Therefore, if you are confusing, or elusive, you are invisible. I
5:33
don't care how much you paid for that billboard. You're
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invisible. I don't care how much you pay that web designer, you
5:38
are completely invisible. So most companies, oh, we gotta get
5:41
some attention. So we have to say who we are, we have to say
5:44
it really loud. We have to tell our story, which is a trap. 95%
5:50
of creative agencies believe that. And it's why most
5:54
companies waste enormous amounts of money on marketing. Nobody
5:58
cares about your story. The way that you get somebody's
6:01
attention is that you invite them into a story.
6:05
Host: You guys have a phrase that you say that's worth
6:07
capturing. You talk about if you confuse...
6:09
Donald Miller: You'll lose. So I've gone around the country and
6:11
asked this question to 1000s of people. What did Jeb Bush want
6:14
to do for America? Nobody has ever answered that question. And
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I probably I bet you I've answered that question to now.
6:19
150,000 people, nobody's ever answered it. When I say what did
6:22
Donald Trump want to do for America? Everybody says Make
6:25
America Great Again. I mean, they literally chanted in unison
6:27
jabs message was confusing. Donald Trump's message was
6:30
clear. Who's the better candidate? I mean, arguably, I
6:33
think a lot of people would say Jeb Bush, especially at this
6:35
point would probably have been a better president. But he lost.
6:38
The reason is people were confused. And they passed him by
6:40
so he's essentially invisible. He before he called us and we we
6:44
went and helped him a little bit at the very end. But before we
6:46
went helped him, he was a 3%. In the polls, with $117 million in
6:50
the writer eyes, super PAC and $12 million. In general campaign
6:53
fun. This is not a money problem. This is a message
6:55
problem.
6:56
Host: Well, and it's kind of like you go regardless of what
6:59
you think of Trump, he was crystal clear.
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Donald Miller: Crystal clear. And he learned it by reality
7:03
television by telling stories by understanding what gets
7:06
somebody's attention and drama gets their attention identifying
7:09
villains gets people's attention. Now, he I also think
7:13
he's extremely manipulative in the use of narrative, he
7:15
vilifies people who aren't actually villain.
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Host: Well I don't want to get too much into the politics. But
7:20
but the but the point is, clarity counts for a tremendous
7:24
amount.
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Donald Miller: And I would even say narrative clarity, narrative
7:28
clarity, who is your customer? What is their problem? How is it
7:32
making them feel? Why is that just plain wrong? And why are
7:35
you qualified to get them out of this problem, you want to
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communicate a customer centric message, the message has to be
7:42
at the customer. Let me give an example. Let's say I'm giving a
7:44
talk, let's say you were at some TED talk, you know, symposium,
7:48
and there's a bunch of talkers going up, the first guy gets up,
7:51
and he says, Hey, my name is Don. And I come from Nashville,
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Tennessee, and I've lived there for about five years with my
7:58
wife, we have two dogs. Second guy gets up, doesn't say his
8:01
name, doesn't say where he's from, doesn't let you know that
8:04
he has dogs, He literally says this, we've got a big problem.
8:07
50% of the people in this room will probably die of cancer.
8:10
Who's more interesting? Well, I don't know that guy's name. I
8:13
don't know where he lives. I don't know if he have dogs. But
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I am plugged in at this point, when he goes on to say your
8:21
water here is whatever. You know, when a story starts, when
8:25
a character has a problem, it opens a story loop. It makes me
8:31
want to pursue some sort of answer to this question so that
8:35
I can close that story loop in my brain. The fact that you're
8:37
from Nashville, Tennessee, and had been married five years and
8:39
have two dogs does not open a storyline in my brain, I don't
8:42
care. So I'm seconds are ticking by. And I'm waiting for you to
8:46
open a story loop and you're not doing it. So my brain is
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designed, I believe, by God, that when you don't get to the
8:53
point, or you're confusing, my brain is saying, You know what,
8:56
I'm burning calories listening to this guy, and he's not going
8:59
anywhere. It's not doing anything to help me survive not
9:01
doing it. There's nothing in this talk for me. Barbarians may
9:04
come over the hill here in an hour, and I need to save some
9:07
calories in case I have to fight them. So I'm just gonna tune out
9:10
on this guy and rest my brain a second, so that I can conserve
9:13
calories in case there's a threat in the future. When you
9:15
are confusing. Your customers brain literally is programmed to
9:19
shut down and ignore you as a survival mechanism serve energy.
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That's exactly it. So you have to enter and you have to invite
9:26
them into a story very quickly. And by doing that you have to
9:28
identify an ambition that they want and a problem that is
9:31
keeping them from getting what they want. And you got to talk
9:33
about it right away.
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Host: So the story brand framework give us the seven
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steps, just the names of them really quick.
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Donald Miller: Well, there's a character you identify who the
9:40
character is they are the hero and you have to identify
9:43
something the hero once and we have to say that in a marketing
9:46
collateral. You know, if you want to say 15% on car
9:49
insurance, who do you go to Geico exact seat you already you
9:52
know that that's effective marketing. You know, now what
9:54
if? What if GEICO came out and had ads that said we won JD
9:57
Power and Associates award for best customer Who cares. So
10:00
there's two mistakes that brands tend to make when they're
10:02
identifying what the customer wants. They either make it so
10:04
elusive, or the other thing is a brand will offer so much that
10:09
there's 15 things that we offer that our customers want, and is
10:12
that that's great. But if you have a movie, and Jason Bourne
10:14
wants to know who he really is, and lose 30 pounds and marry the
10:17
girl, and he's thinking about adopting a cat, and he wants to
10:19
run a marathon, you will lose the audience. You have to choose
10:21
one. And it would be an umbrella thing that all the stuff you
10:25
offer comes in under. So Dave Ramsey offers financial peace,
10:28
well, how does he do it? He offers it through selling great
10:30
mortgages, he offers it through software, he offers it through
10:32
classes, but he offers financial peace is the one thing he's
10:35
known for. And we've got to do that as a brand. So first,
10:38
identify what your customer wants, then identify the
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problem. They are encountering getting what they want, I'm not
10:45
going to go into this this will take a long time. But what is
10:47
challenging them from getting what they want, what is keeping
10:49
them from getting what they want. You need to position your
10:52
brand to help them overcome that challenge. But you need to name
10:55
the challenge. You need to name it and say we help you overcome
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this we help you overcome gingivitis. We help you overcome
11:01
procrastination, we help you overcome weeds in your lawn, or
11:04
embarrassment in your neighborhood because your lawn
11:06
looks so bad, identify what it is and make it singular also,
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because stories work best and singular plot points. Don't add
11:14
don't put a bunch of stuff here. And then you position yourself
11:17
as the guide in the story. That guy is a character that has
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existed for 1000s of years since Plato and Aristotle they would
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put this other character in the story that is basically kind of
11:26
a bit part but it's a very important part. The sole purpose
11:29
of the guide is to help the hero win the day. So the biggest
11:33
paradigm shift is never position yourself as the hero only
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position yourself as the guide.
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Host: Coming back to famous movies. So give us who are
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famous guides that we would see in movies.
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Donald Miller: Oh, in Hunger Games would be Woody from
11:45
cheers, right? Hey, Mitch. In Star Wars Luke Skywalker is the
11:49
hero Obi Wan Kenobi is the guide or Yoda is the guy there's often
11:52
multiple guides in the King's Speech. King George Of course
11:56
with Hero, Lionel, the drama coach is the guide and
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Moneyball, Billy Beane, is the hero, Peter brand is the guide,
12:04
Mr. Miyagi is the guide for karate kid, you know, on and on.
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And the guide sometimes can be the central character of the
12:11
story. Mary Poppins is the guide in the movie, Mary Poppins, the
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father is the hero, and the Father is hardly on screen.
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Every one of us wakes up in the morning self identifying as the
12:21
lead protagonist in the story as the hero, when you come to me
12:24
and we meet at a cocktail party, say what do you do? I work, I
12:26
helped start this company. And we're actually you know, we have
12:28
a great company culture. And we have a great, great places to
12:31
work metric. And we're trying to double revenue next year, what
12:34
as you talk about your company and yourself, what my brain is
12:37
doing is it's categorizing you in my mind, and it's
12:40
categorizing you as another hero. Yeah, it's not that I
12:42
don't like you actually quite interested. You know, I'm like,
12:45
I wish this guy would keep in touch. He's got this great story
12:47
going on. I wonder, you know if that's going to work out. For
12:50
now, though, I do wish he would step aside because I'm actually
12:52
looking for a guide to help me solve a problem. And you're not
12:55
talking about my problem. And you're not positioning yourself
12:57
as an authority to solve my problem. You're telling me your
13:00
story.
13:00
Host: So if you're talking about yourself, you can't, it's like
13:03
you're not talking. You can't be talking about yourself and
13:05
talking about my problem at same time.
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Donald Miller: You can, as long as you're talking about yourself
13:10
in the context of solving problems. So when you say,
13:14
instead of saying, you know, I work for this company that
13:16
helped start putting years ago, you would say something like,
13:19
you know, I'd say, what do you do for a living? You say, Well,
13:21
you know, no sale, most salespeople actually don't have
13:24
accountability. And they really struggled to make the calls and
13:26
close the deals, because we're all kind of lazy on the inside.
13:29
I have a coaching firm that actually keeps salespeople
13:32
accountable. And we find that when employers hire coaches, for
13:36
their salespeople, their revenue goes through the roof. It's
13:39
called, and then you go from there. Well, what did you just
13:41
do? You just identified a problem that I may have, you
13:44
talked about the solution, and you invited me to live that
13:47
story myself to solve my own problem. That is good, effective
13:51
marketing and branding. So there's the guide, that's the
13:54
guide them what the guide does the guide, the there's a couple
13:57
things in the book, there was a way that you position yourself
13:59
as a guide in your customers subconscious, there's two things
14:02
you need to do. One of the other things that you need to do is
14:05
you need to give the guide a plan, I mean, the hero a plan,
14:07
the guide gives the hero, usually three or four steps that
14:10
they can take, in order to solve the problem. The reason you do
14:14
that, is because most customers won't engage you if they get
14:18
into a confusion. But but let's say we're at the cocktail party,
14:21
you say, you know, you should call me my coaches can really
14:23
help. I'm probably not going to call and probably like 40%,
14:27
ready to call you. Because there's kind of a fog there. I
14:30
don't know how much it's gonna cost. Is it gonna be you know,
14:33
it's gonna take a bunch of my time. And if I have questions,
14:36
I'm not going to make the deal. And here's why. Because it's a
14:38
risk on my parts of financial risk. It's also a social risk. I
14:41
may I may be foolish by by buying into a bad service. So
14:45
there's, there's an at the point where I start feeling that risk.
14:48
Those are all excuses to walk away. And your customers are
14:51
willing to take those excuses. So what you have to say to me
14:54
is, Don, it's really easy. So so what you would say is, if I say
14:59
yeah, I'm kind of injured So you can have a card, you'd have your
15:01
card and said, Yeah, absolutely. It's actually super easy. You
15:04
and I just get on the phone, we have a call, I assess your
15:07
needs, we send you a custom strategy report saying what we
15:10
think you should do, and then we help you execute it. It's just a
15:12
three step plan, it's super easy. Well, what did you just do
15:15
in my brain, you just said, Don, it's not gonna be a lot of hard,
15:17
there's not gonna be hard work in this is gonna be super easy.
15:20
We find that when you actually say to folks, hey, this is let
15:24
me show you visually 123 steps, and they go, Oh, this is easy.
15:29
You see a dramatic increase in customer engagement.
15:31
Host: So you start with a character, there's something
15:33
they want, that has a problem.
15:36
Donald Miller: They meet the guide. And the guide gives them
15:38
a plan to solve their problem. Number five is the plans right?
15:41
Yeah, actually is number four, four is the plan. And then
15:44
number five, is you call them to action. Yes. So you make your
15:47
direct calls to action, by now schedule an appointment register
15:50
today, extremely clear. And it's amazing how many clients come to
15:54
us. And we look at every website of every client that we engage,
15:58
and they come to our workshops, we put their website on a giant
16:01
ad and screen scary. Like, we don't embarrass you, but we do
16:06
say, hey, you know, you need to do this, you need to do that you
16:09
need to this, one of the things we often say is your calls to
16:11
action are very clear. You're saying things like learn more,
16:14
or contact, that's very evasive language, you need to say call
16:18
now, by now, it needs to be extremely clear. And just
16:23
clarifying your direct call to action. And in the top right
16:26
corner of your website, you should have just a couple
16:28
buttons. Most people have 10 or 12, that's clutter, the only
16:32
thing I want you to do is apply or buy now or schedule an
16:34
appointment. So what I'm going to put that in the top right
16:37
corner, and I'm going to make it a different color, painfully
16:40
obvious, painfully explicitly clear, if you go to our website,
16:43
you'll see a bunch of buttons, I think contact is down at the
16:46
very bottom in what we call the junk drawer. People will look
16:48
for the contact button, you don't need it at the top. What I
16:51
want at the top is where you marry me trying to marry the
16:52
girl here. Right? So you don't want to like, will you marry me?
16:55
And also, would you like to meet my brother? And also would you
16:58
you know, let's just stick with the one question that we're
17:01
trying to get to here. And so you know, it's just being more
17:04
direct. And also, customers need to be challenged to place an
17:07
order. And most of us are selling passively, which makes
17:10
us look weak. We think we're saying this, we think we're
17:13
saying, oh, you know, I don't want to bother you. But you
17:16
know, we do have a great service, if you need it, give me
17:18
a call. But I really don't want to I don't want to be one of
17:21
those pushy salespeople who's bothering you. We think we're
17:23
being polite, what the customer is actually hearing is, I don't
17:25
actually believe in my product, I don't believe it will actually
17:28
solve your problem. If you do want to give me some charity and
17:30
buy it, I would appreciate that. But I'm not very confident that
17:34
I have what can you imagine going to a doctor and a doctor
17:37
says you have cancer. And they say we do. I mean, we have a
17:40
pill that for a lot of other people it's just made may just
17:42
go away very quickly. It's actually you know, but I don't
17:45
want I don't want to bother you, you know, it's like you're gonna
17:47
tie that guy down and force that bill down his throat and make
17:49
him pay for it. Because he's gonna dive. So if you don't have
17:52
a problem to solve, no wonder you're being passive. But if
17:54
you're if you do have a problem to solve, you're going to be
17:56
direct. And then the final two, after calls to action are you
17:59
have to tell people, what are the negative consequences of not
18:04
doing business with you you had, if there are no stakes in the
18:07
story, there is no story. If the bomb isn't a threat to go off
18:12
and hurt a bunch of people, it's no reason to keep paying
18:14
attention to this, the bombs a dud, it's not gonna hurt
18:16
anybody, I'm not gonna watch 90 more minutes of this guy trying
18:18
to get to this bomb that we all know is not ever really going to
18:20
go off, you do need to say there are some consequences not doing
18:23
business with us, here's what life looks like, you're gonna
18:25
keep procrastinating, you're gonna make less money, you're
18:27
gonna have tooth pain, but you know, whatever it is, then the
18:29
final is the success bucket. And that is we got to give people a
18:33
vision of what their life can look like if they do business
18:36
with us. So we got to tell them what the life will look like if
18:38
they don't and positively what their life looks like, if they
18:41
do that create stakes in the story. So those are the seven, a
18:45
character that wants something has a problem they have to
18:48
overcome meets a guide who helps them give them a plan to show
18:52
them how easy it is cause them to action. So they do not
18:55
experience tragedy, and instead experience success. And and my
18:59
opinion, and I believe my opinion is right. You should
19:03
only communicate answers to those seven questions, anything
19:06
on your website that doesn't come from them why those seven
19:08
buckets is noise, and it's keep confusing your customers and
19:11
it's been proven to captivate a human brain. So if we use it for
19:15
helping people give speeches all the time. And you know, first
19:18
thing you do is walk to the platform, and you talk about
19:21
what we all want, but we can't have it, because there's a
19:23
problem. But don't worry, because I've helped a lot of
19:26
people get through this problem. And I've done it by 123 I need
19:31
you to engage and do this thing in order to solve this problem
19:35
for yourself. Because if you don't bad things gonna happen.
19:37
But don't think about that. Because good things can happen
19:40
that your life can look like this. That's it, just those
19:43
seven, everything else is known.
19:44
Host: So what is the difference between number seven and number
19:46
one?
19:47
Donald Miller: What what the character wants is there they're
19:49
actually very similar and they can overlap. Okay? But let's
19:53
say, you know, I'm embarrassed about my yard and I don't want
19:57
my I don't want to be embarrassed in the neighborhood
19:58
anymore. That's something I want But what's the solution to that
20:01
a beautiful lawn. So the success is the beautiful lawn, what I
20:04
want is to not be embarrassed anymore. They can overlap. And
20:08
they can even in those two categories, in fact, it's
20:10
beneficial if they are the same thing. Because the more you can
20:13
use the exact same language, the more clear your story actually
20:16
is. Gotcha. But those two are very, very similar. Well, if you
20:19
think about it, the success category closes the loop on what
20:23
the customer wants. So it's actually even better if they get
20:26
what they want in the end.
20:28
Host: And you use the term villain, there's something you
20:30
want, but there's a villain.
20:31
Donald Miller: It's the villain who causes an external, internal
20:34
and philosophical problem, external problem is usually the
20:36
physical problem that the company solves internal is how
20:39
your customer is feeling about their external problem. I'm
20:42
feeling hopeless. And I realize my problem, embarrassment is how
20:45
I feel about it. Now, here's why that's important. People are
20:47
more motivated to solve internal problems than they are to solve
20:50
external problems, because nobody's calling you because
20:52
they have a problem. Nobody, they're all calling you. Because
20:54
that problem is making them feel something and they're trying to
20:56
end the feeling. They're not trying to solve the problem.
20:58
They're trying to gain the feeling and the only way they're
21:00
gonna be feeling so I'll probably, you know, I'm, are you
21:02
embarrassed about your lawn? And do you wish it looked as good as
21:04
your neighbors? My problem is, I'm embarrassed.
21:07
Host: Where do you want people to go to either connect with you
21:09
guys get the book, etc, etc?
21:11
Donald Miller: They can buy the book anywhere you buy books,
21:13
Barnes and noble.com amazon.com, anywhere. All that sort of
21:17
information about us is available at story brand.com.
21:20
Host: What is the first step? I mean, other than buying the
21:22
book, if you're going to just go?
21:23
Donald Miller: Absolutely. Even before you start the business?
21:26
If you're at that stage, or if you've been in business for 10
21:28
years, the one question you need to answer is what problem do you
21:32
solve? People are only motivated to solve problems. And if you
21:36
can say, I solved this problem. When somebody hands you their
21:40
business card, you actually, you know, put it in that Rolodex
21:43
file of your brain, right? You're trying to remember this
21:45
person in their business, the Rolodex in a customer's brain,
21:49
isn't they alphabetically categorized by the name of your
21:53
business? It's alphabetically categorized by the problem you
21:56
solve. So when you say, you know, here, I do business, you
22:00
know, I do I do this and we work. We work with wood a lot. I
22:04
don't know what problem you solve. So big on my brain. I'm
22:07
trying to figure out where to categorize you. And I'm not
22:10
gonna, I'm not gonna be enter W for wood. I'll forget you. So if
22:13
I can't figure out what problem you solve, actually, I literally
22:15
throw the thing away in my brain, it's never in my brain
22:17
again. But when you say, we work with wood, we make wood floors
22:21
that don't buckle for 100 years, because they're the most solid
22:25
wood floors in the world. They'll never work will not net
22:27
firstly, you just agitated a problem, right? I didn't know
22:29
wood floors, buckled and warped. And so now who do I go to to
22:33
solve this problem that I didn't even know existed? I go to you
22:36
because your floors apparently don't buckle or work. So just
22:38
associating this. Here's a problem that everybody's dealing
22:41
with. And we have solved that problem is the number one thing
22:45
you want to do in business because you got to be known for
22:47
solving a problem.
22:49
Host: Don, thank you for all that you guys do.
22:51
Donald Miller: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.