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The Qlippoth with Frater RC Part 2 · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What what's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What I to.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: Help it.
• 0:24
  Speaker 4: To?
• 0:24
  Speaker 5: The saturnine point of aridity. And the real test isn't
• 0:28
  Speaker 5: whether you practice when it feels magical, it's whether you
• 0:32
  Speaker 5: keep going when it feels dry. These are all quotes
• 0:35
  Speaker 5: from the book, which some of which I'll keep in,
• 0:37
  Speaker 5: some of which I will rewrite, rework and turn into
• 0:41
  Speaker 5: new and brilliant paragraphs. So yeah, I essentially argue that
• 0:45
  Speaker 5: devotion matters more than spiritual thrills. Probably won't be a
• 0:48
  Speaker 5: shocker to anyone here. And another quote is I say
• 0:53
  Speaker 5: the work becomes true. Work becomes true invoking into it
• 0:57
  Speaker 5: the spirit only when the goal of pleasure is replaced
• 0:59
  Speaker 5: by the petiss of devotion. So one of my main
• 1:02
  Speaker 5: messages is that pleasure is not the measure of truth
• 1:05
  Speaker 5: in spiritual work, of course, and that's just an example
• 1:09
  Speaker 5: of my approach and the I think important differentiation between
• 1:14
  Speaker 5: subjective and object realities in this particular interpretation of the
• 1:19
  Speaker 5: Tree of Evil.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: Thank you man. Is there any questions before I went forward?
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: So I wanted to kind of ask you some of
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: this stuff. I think we kind of like asked this
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: that is, I think we kind of answered it anyway,
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: but it kind of makes sense with the question I
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: have afterwards. Do you interpret clippothic forces as actual entities,
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: archetypal structures, psychological realities, some combination of these, or how
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: do you look at them?
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I've answered that kind of but not explicitly,
• 2:06
  Speaker 5: I suppose. I mean, again, the cop out, though it feels,
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: does feel a bit of a cop out to say
• 2:11
  Speaker 5: people can deal with them however they want, but it
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: depends on what you're working with them for and how
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: that determines how you're working with them, right, if you're
• 2:20
  Speaker 5: if you're seeing them as things to be purified and transmuted,
• 2:25
  Speaker 5: like David Heimsmith does, so that you can experience God
• 2:30
  Speaker 5: more fully. Though let's put a big, you know, double
• 2:33
  Speaker 5: quotes on the word experience there, especially if you know
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  Speaker 5: David Heinsmith's work at all. So it does it, you know,
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: do I see are they they are archetypal in the
• 2:46
  Speaker 5: sense that we can conceive of them as archetypes the
• 2:49
  Speaker 5: real beings, in the sense that we do often as
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  Speaker 5: human beings, and in the in the in the field
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  Speaker 5: of phenomena experience them phenomenologically right, Like, they might not
• 3:00
  Speaker 5: be metaphysically ontologically real, but we certainly have to deal
• 3:05
  Speaker 5: with them in terms of ordinal phenomenology, and in the
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: layers of our experience of reality, they become real. So again,
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: I don't know if I would put them in the
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: same category as I would dimonase which we see as
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  Speaker 5: real entities or spirits. I don't know if I would.
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: You can certainly turn them into entities through many different
• 3:27
  Speaker 5: magical means, or just building them up in your mind
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: to the point at which you know you become possessed
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: by that edity. If you focus on the clipo of
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: death and destruction, that could be several of them, So
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: take your pick. And of course there's tons more in
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: the Book of Horns that we don't even know about
• 3:44
  Speaker 5: in the non Hebrew speaking world yet because no one's
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: translating it. That might change after this podcast, eh, some
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: one might be like, what the fuck? How do we
• 3:55
  Speaker 5: miss this? It's like, well, because you don't pay attention,
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: So that's okay. I mean, doctors, I just talked about
• 4:00
  Speaker 5: the Book of Horns, tons and no one's done anything
• 4:03
  Speaker 5: about it. When I told him, I paid someone to translated,
• 4:05
  Speaker 5: he just laughed. He was like, ah, I was like, fuck,
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: you just drink your absence. The shut up. It's like
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: it would be interesting for us to him, it wouldn't
• 4:13
  Speaker 5: be of any interest because you know he's an atheist.
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: So but it's just a fight. It would just be
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  Speaker 5: a wild, crazy demon text by a you know, by
• 4:21
  Speaker 5: a martyred rabbi. So yeah, we we can. We can
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: deal with these things as nties, But I don't think
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  Speaker 5: it's healthy too reify them as such. What benefit is
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  Speaker 5: there too that you know if you reify like so,
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: Kenneth Grant's point of view is like, we experience the
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  Speaker 5: path demons and we connect the sphere demons by indulging
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  Speaker 5: in the path demons. What does that mean? That means
• 4:46
  Speaker 5: living out those demonic forces. So if you reify a
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  Speaker 5: clipo of death and destruction, that means you're destroying things.
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  Speaker 5: That means you're killing things, and then you are connected
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  Speaker 5: with that clipo, you are possessed. Buy that clipo you
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: want to work with thawmil great, you will divide yourself
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: against yourself, which you know it happens whenever in psychology
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  Speaker 5: we have any experience of object identification at all, which
• 5:12
  Speaker 5: is like Jen was saying earlier, why it's so nuts
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: how many people are hyper focused on their identity these days,
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: because what we know from psychology, one of the very
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: few ideas that has not been overturned since Freud and
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  Speaker 5: Jung because most of their ideas about how the mind
• 5:25
  Speaker 5: and sub conscious and shadow work, we know that's all
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  Speaker 5: nonsense now. But one of the main things psychologists seem
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  Speaker 5: to have continued to keep as true to this day
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: is object identification. You identify with something, it fractures your
• 5:39
  Speaker 5: psyche into that which you are, and that's which you
• 5:42
  Speaker 5: identify with. And your identification can even be with a
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  Speaker 5: self identity, and that causes a fracture and leads to
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  Speaker 5: schizoid psychosis if you keep going with it. And so
• 5:53
  Speaker 5: you know, users beware, or as I say on the
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: cover of the book, warning demons. You know, like, however,
• 6:02
  Speaker 5: you want to see that focusing on this stuff comes
• 6:06
  Speaker 5: at risk, just like focusing on anything disgusting and sick
• 6:10
  Speaker 5: comes at risk. And you'll know that if you've explored
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: the Internet, it's darker corners for any amount of time.
• 6:16
  Speaker 5: How do you sleep that night?
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: Well, the next question I have I guess this wouldrobably
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: also depend on I guess which way you're looking at
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  Speaker 3: it or using it? What role do names, correspondences, seals,
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  Speaker 3: and ritual forms play in structuring contact with these forces
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  Speaker 3: or things? How are you looking at it?
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: Oh, I'm so glad you asked that question. I'm so
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: glad you asked that question because that is the big one,
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  Speaker 5: that is, in many ways one of the big questions. Well,
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  Speaker 5: Kenneth Grant did a lot of that, right. The gamatria
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  Speaker 5: is the perfect example, like trying to understand the nature
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  Speaker 5: of the path demons in terms of their gamatria and
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  Speaker 5: guess what that was one of the things I did
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: focus on from his taking his lead, because gematria is
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  Speaker 5: a useful tool. Anyone who thinks that it's some secret
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  Speaker 5: code to show how things really are is completely miss
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  Speaker 5: the point of it. It's a spiritual exercise, just like
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  Speaker 5: anything is that helps you understand the map you're working
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  Speaker 5: with better, but not necessarily the terrain. Maybe it will
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  Speaker 5: help you gain insights or phenomenal glimpses of how these
• 7:25
  Speaker 5: things play out in your life or reality. But yeah,
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  Speaker 5: the gamatria is a great example of that. Looking at
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  Speaker 5: the names looking at the numbers, seeing what they connect with,
• 7:36
  Speaker 5: and seeing if an inspiration comes from your noose, from
• 7:39
  Speaker 5: your higher self. That gives you some insight into how
• 7:42
  Speaker 5: this clipote works and how it can be better transmuted
• 7:46
  Speaker 5: or dealt with when it manifests in your life, because
• 7:48
  Speaker 5: a lot of these things do clipboat manifest physically in
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  Speaker 5: our lives through the bad things that we experience or
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  Speaker 5: or heaven forbid, do in the world world, and that
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  Speaker 5: is very real. Let's see, let's see if I can
• 8:06
  Speaker 5: give an example. Yeah, keep going, I'll just see if
• 8:14
  Speaker 5: I have a good example from my notes.
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to read something from the chat and
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: I think it's funny. Actually I don't know exactly the
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: context I try to understanding here, but anyways, I'm just
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: gonna pull it up and I think it's funny the
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: person said or wrote it. Again, No, they're not one
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  Speaker 4: hundred percent of context, but they wrote no risk with Jesus.
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  Speaker 4: And I was thinking, how, like again the concept that
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: we were talking about right of the symbols being emptied,
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: how that happens so often with zooteric things. So again
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  Speaker 4: the alter example things where you're gonna have the symbol
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  Speaker 4: that people. Everyone kind of has their own idea of
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: the thing. So at the end of the day, it's
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  Speaker 4: not really like it's not really anything because everyone has
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: their different idea. For example, Jesus is one of those things, right,
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: and if you ask people to kind of speak about it,
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  Speaker 4: they will kind of gravitate towards some kind of thing
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: or the same with like Buddha or whatever, like the again,
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  Speaker 4: the exoteric concepts or even sometimes again right, everyone who
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: kind of have their own very different thing if they
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  Speaker 4: just superficiously study about it. So again don't know their
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: context what they said. But there is indeed a lot
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: of risk if you just want to get something packaged
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  Speaker 4: to you. You know, that's the actually the greatest risk,
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: couthy because again you're just getting something pre made for you,
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: and that comes with a lot of preconceptions. Right. So
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  Speaker 4: for example, if we are talking about Jesus, a lot
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  Speaker 4: of people will have the image of him suffering, you know,
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  Speaker 4: with the crown and in blood and whatever. And then
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  Speaker 4: and imagine you have that in your imagination all the time,
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  Speaker 4: what exactly is gonna you know, calls to you again,
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  Speaker 4: no shade in Jesus, you can use that simple tiffer
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  Speaker 4: at whoever you want. Just if you get the prepackaged version,
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  Speaker 4: exactly are you gonna work with that? You know, the
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: always being in sacrifice, always being this and this one.
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  Speaker 4: So again, just thought it was very funny the comment
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  Speaker 4: there again, don't know the complex that didnt com what
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  Speaker 4: that came into my life matters.
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  Speaker 5: And you know, it's interesting because that's such a feature
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: of modern Christian theology, so process theology at work, because
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: that would only be viewable, visible, conceivable in a world
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: in which we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
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  Speaker 5: But early Christians had no belief in that, right, that's
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: a modern idea quote unquote modern he goes back to Protestantism.
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  Speaker 5: But this idea that you have a direct personal relationship
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  Speaker 5: with Christ isn't found in original Christianity. So that really
• 11:02
  Speaker 5: mitigates the risk of having oh I have my Jesus,
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: you have your Jesus. We all have our own Jesuses.
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  Speaker 5: They didn't have that view originally in Christianity. It was
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  Speaker 5: all about the communal relationship with Christ. You find come
• 11:15
  Speaker 5: to Christ through your community. And so it's quite a
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  Speaker 5: modern problem that one of fragmenting interpretations individually in ways
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: that then don't connect us to anyone except to our
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  Speaker 5: own mystical experience. And what good is that for human
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: life if we're all just you know, trapped in our
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: own sollipsism. I have an example I found here in
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: the text of my book, which I will elucidate, which
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: is what to the previous point of yours? So sigils
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  Speaker 5: symbols gematria. How does all that come into play with
• 11:56
  Speaker 5: the cleipbout? How is that useful? Well, here's a really
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: simple example. So sloth is especially related as a vice
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  Speaker 5: to sagittarius through the geomantic symbol acquisitio. So here's geomancy
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  Speaker 5: as a tool within this context, and you find it
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  Speaker 5: within the path or tunnel of set excuse me of
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  Speaker 5: the sigil of that demon of Saturn tantifaxat and Saint
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  Speaker 5: John of the Cross describes sloth as an opposite of
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  Speaker 5: the quality to the quality of Saturn. So that is,
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  Speaker 5: the initiate will dislike most spiritual pursuits because they are
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  Speaker 5: void of sweetness and incompatible with sensual pleasure. But the
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  Speaker 5: sigil acquisitsio right there shows you how you could work
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  Speaker 5: with that. Well, you can make a sigil or a
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  Speaker 5: seal or a talisman, or any number of rituals using
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: Acquisitsio and the sigils derived from Aquisitsio or even the
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: archangel of Sagittarius to then mitigate your own struggles with
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: sloth and sloth as it's defined in this context, not
• 12:59
  Speaker 5: necessarily the pop cultural one, but maybe you can use
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  Speaker 5: it that way too. I'm sure you can. So these
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  Speaker 5: things do guide us. Even Kenneth Grant's work does guide
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: us to ritual and spiritual practices to help us mitigate
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  Speaker 5: against our own corruption or sin or whatever you want
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: to call it. Great magic gives us lots of.
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  Speaker 3: Tools, yeah, oh for sure, magical magical tools, magical weapons.
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  Speaker 3: Did anybody else have anything that they wanted to ask?
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  Speaker 3: Where you keep going or anything? All right, how do
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: you personally like hold that tension between metaphysical and psychological readings?
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: Well, shout out to philosophical minds in the chat. I'm
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: not sure what do you mean by a tension between
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: psychological and metaphysical because metaphysical I see as in the
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: philosophical senses, referring to the actual nature of reality, So
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: we don't really experience anything metaphysical. Ever, we just experience
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: our own, you know, interpreted understanding of reality through through
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: the perception field little David him Smith way of phrasing
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: that again, but through the phenomena we experience, and that
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: has very little as we know, to do with actual
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: base reality, which is metaphysics.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll just say this, I think the next question
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: was really good, and I think but I think that
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: I agree with what you're saying, Freight. I think that
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: there's a tension between what is even the word psychology
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: even mean in like this context of like Cabbala and
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: like understanding the tree and understanding Kleipas like you and
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: I think would say consciousness. But I think Nick is
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: drawing from more of the popular understanding of like psychology,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: as in like there is like we like I mentioned,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: like there's the edgy Goth version of the Kleepas that
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: are like you must be depressed, like there is there
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: are literally left time path texts on the Klipa that
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: say like it's a it's a path of depression, it's
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: a path of self sacrifice, like where you're like cutting
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: and burning yourself. I'm not trying to be like edge
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Lord and saying this. I'm saying that they're they literally
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: will kind of put that in as part of the
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: you know, hermeneutic to understand the dark side of the tree.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that it's like totally wrong because
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: people have like a I'm not saying that that's right.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: I'm saying that people run the range of emotions, so
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: obviously those emotions can become kleepas, but even good emotions
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: can become kleepas. And I love that you brought up
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: the idea of perception because I think hesse that is
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: very Hessetic, right, Like that is we are looking at
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: the ocean and it's the reflection that we see off
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: of it, and we see who we really are, and
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: then we make a choice do we go to Binna
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: or do we to go back down to Hoade? Well,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: that's a choice, right. I just think I think that
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: what Nick's really asking is like how do we resolve
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: this like mind body dialectical problem in understand how we
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: maybe even it's just a language issue, Maybe it's just
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: like how do we articulate it, like can should we divorce? Divorce?
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Like magical experiences or separatic experiences, even if it's based
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: in our perception. Should we take that away from like
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: the psychological like transmutation or is it all part of
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: it or is it like distinguishable? I don't know.
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so sorry, story about that, Nick. Normally, I would
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: usually in these spaces interpret the word metaphysical in the
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: way that that you actually meant it. Because of the
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: nature of our conversation today in terms of theology and philosophy,
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: I just defaulted to the hard philosophical definition of the
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: term to be for clarity what I thought. But I
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: feel I made a mistake there. I should have. Yeah,
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: you mentate in terms of spearmint metaphysical in terms of
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: spiritual consciousness, the spiritual non physical reality. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: so that's a different question. Yeah, that's a that's that
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: is a different question.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Answered jin. I saw the context and sense the way
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: you're answering it anyway, But.
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, but in terms of how does so how
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: does it let me think of it again, how does
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: how does this play out when we contrast the spiritual
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: metaphysical reality of these things versus the psychological. That's a
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: good question, you know, I'm not even sure that I
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: have a fully formed answer to that. I definitely obviously
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: there's the I.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Think there was actually a tough caveats.
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: That the psychological is. It's a great question, it's a
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: great yeah. I mean the usual caveats, like the spiritual
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: metaphysical view of the human incorporates necessarily the psycho logical.
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: That's that's there. But yeah, how's it. I think metaphysically
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: as in the way you meant it, in the way
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: you said it. The danger is you do end up
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: creating these things into more than they should be. I
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: just think that is the problem. You end up creating
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: little little uh little coco diamon aise or little what's
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: the what's the word for a little spirit you create?
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: What's that word? I'm brain farting on it. You all
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: the homunculous. Yeah, as well, you're making a little homunculi
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: out of these klepot And it's like, again, if your
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: path is to to uh be a bedrodder and and
• 18:38
  Speaker 5: and be depressed so that you can gain true spiritual
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: enlightenment through the path of evil, Yeah, I know, I'm
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: I know, I'm sort of couching that, but that's okay.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Uh No, that was good because I was leading into
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: something else.
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: If you're gonna do that, then I would recommend you
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: you go the solemonic route and deal with those them
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: as spirits and demons in any is as you would
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: with any other demon or spirit. I don't really work
• 19:09
  Speaker 5: those systems of magic much, but if you were to
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: go do that, then do it, and do it in
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: the way that the grimoires recommend, invoking from the highest
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: and subjugating these these forces within your life so they
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: do not control you, so that you do not become
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: a plaything of forces you cannot control, which is what
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: you know, chaos does. It's what dark forces do. They
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: imbalance us. And the way to purify and transmuteklepode is
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: or the or there is through the the dcs would call,
• 19:42
  Speaker 5: you know, the red and white drops and through the heart.
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: And that's a beautiful thing because it makes you a
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: better person, a more full person, and certainly more prepared
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: to enthrone your noose, your your holy diamond, on your
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: your higher soul and gain that higher consciousness so that
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: you can be initiated into that tunic of fire and
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: become like a star god after death.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: Thank you. That kind of lead it up to, like
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: one other question I just wanted to ask you, do
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: you think if somebody was to maybe get into this
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: this practice of this stuff not really understanding it fully
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: or kind of maybe not being authentic with it, do
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: you think that could end up kind of maybe feeding
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: your ego and actually making things worse.
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: I think it almost always does. I mean I just
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: I just one foolish night, and you know, treated these
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: things in a slightly haphazard or as I saw it
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: at the time, boldly experimental way, and it almost killed me. So,
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: you know, that was my experience. Maybe others are more
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: able to navigate that kind of of experience. I doubt it.
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: I don't think that that is, you know, a healthy path.
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's the result of us not getting very
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: in depth training on the Klepoath in the Golden Dawn,
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: which led to me writing the paper I led and
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: led to my workshops being as popular as they were,
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: and why that's why the whole internet started talking about
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: me when I was such a young magician back in
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: the late nineties. It's why I was known before I
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: even knew I was known. And you know, people called
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: me many things on the Alt Magic forums and all
• 21:46
  Speaker 5: that stuff. None of them actually knew me cause I
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: didn't participate in the online forums. I was busy finishing
• 21:52
  Speaker 5: high school at the time, So yeah.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: I do want to work.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: My apologies just had like from my own experience, again,
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: I never really got specific with this stuff, but like
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: at one point in my life, there was a few
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: people that I knew were and the idea of the
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: clip out from them of how I looked at it
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: then due to their influence, and how I even see
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: it now is completely different. And I just remember that
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: the people that there was only a few people I
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: knew personally that were all of a sudden I can't
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: even remember the book. Some book came out and everybody
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: seemed to be like pretty much buying the same book
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: and getting it, and their lives weren't going too good,
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: seemed to get shittier and shittier. So I thought it
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: was like a little weird. Like I'm just wondering if
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: that is like a side effect of like not actually
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: really fully knowing what you're getting into it.
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I mean even recently, I watched a fellow
• 22:53
  Speaker 5: magician and friend in Vancouver's life just completely spiral into
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: utter self destruction. You know, any swar that working with
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: Darker Forces was part of his you know, Thulemic path,
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: and you know, next thing, you know, he's threatening everyone
• 23:08
  Speaker 5: and trying to blackmail people and extort them and you know,
• 23:12
  Speaker 5: just complete you know, mental breakdown. And I thought this
• 23:15
  Speaker 5: was one of my closest homies throughout the last five years.
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: And it's like, yeah, well you know you you play
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: with dark forces, and you know, shit happens, especially for
• 23:34
  Speaker 5: people I think who look down before they look up.
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And to be completely honest, people don't have
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: to even be initiated, uh, to go that route. Like again,
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: we can use all the mystical names and so on,
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: but people can just do shit and you can see
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: that clearly, like they digging their their life down because
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: they're doing you know, well whatever lying or corrupting or
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: whatever whatever. And you see that it never pays out literally,
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: like the thing always goes downhill at some point. So again,
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: we have.
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: So many examples, right, like ea quetting all these guys,
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: like so many examples of people from Crowley onward just
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: destroying their lives. I mean Crowley, sure he had some
• 24:30
  Speaker 5: you know, there's good things about Kroley, but I think
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: he could have been a lot happier person if he
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: had believed in some of the tenets of her meticism
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: that he learned in the Golden Dawn, rather than throw
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: most of them out the window to explore darker realms
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: and more more selfish realms. I think that was his
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: big mistake, and many people since him have followed his
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: lead because he started his own religion and became a
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: prophet of it and not and a lot of people
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: don't handle that well. There's examples, great examples of people
• 25:08
  Speaker 5: who did, like Lon Milo Duquette, Richard Kacinski. You know,
• 25:12
  Speaker 5: there's other lovely people who are part of represent that
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: tradition very well. But there's the other side of it.
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: And that's why in like traditions like the Hermetic spirituality
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: or as found in Rose Crucian Currents, the Golden Dawn
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: and many other traditions, I mean, we just reject that
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: stuff at the outset out of hand. We even take
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: vows against working it. So there's a reason for that.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: I want to offer a defense of the Klipa's but
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: it's not please do. It's not an adversarial position to
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: what Freighter said. I just think, like well dcs would
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: even say, like within the klip as there are there
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: is the primordial space, empty space which can arise wisdom,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: which can arise you know, the sort of female the
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: shakinas he would call it. I would call it the
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: shok d but he can call David call it whatever
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: he wants. But yeah, the female principle. Like we talked
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: about this on a different episode, like I think Matt
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: and Judith and obviously Nick was there and we talked
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: about how you know, like in a more contrac way
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: you would understand like the space, even in within the
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: tunnel itself to still be able to contain the truth,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: like the truth, the primordial truth is still there. But
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: it's a perceptual case. So I don't I don't disagree
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: with people working the night Side Tree at all. I
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: find Kenny G's work. Shoutout Solar, I find his work.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: He gets lost in the he gets lost in the tunnels.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: There's no other way to describe it. He he goes
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: on to describe all the klipas like in in immense detail,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: but he's kind of getting lost from what they actually are.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: And what they actually are is there's they're supposed to
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: be experiential knowledge. You're supposed to be sort of performing
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: the act of bringing Hokmah and Dina together even down there.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: So if that's the klopathic version, then whatever the copaltic
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: version of that is, and then you're creating death in
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: that space because the way David sees it is the
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: death doesn't exist on the tree. And I also agree
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: with that. I think death is something that you synthesize
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: in your own consciousness. So the so there is a use,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: but I do see a use in it. But I
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: also see where people get stuck, just like people do
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: get stuck on the suffer, and people do get stuck
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: and they sink. Oh, angels, Angels are just inherently amazing.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: They're gonna help me. They're going to manifest like the Lottery.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: They're gonna you know, they're gonna it's very like, you know,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: no shade to John Michael Greer, but he he kind
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: of went that route for like a good two decades,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: and he would be like all like it's all love
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: and light, like it's all like, you can't be stuck
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: on that stuff either. That becomes a kleipa if you
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: grasp aden enough. In my opinion, So I just want
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: to say that I do see a use in not
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: only studying the klipa, but I think it is a
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: I don't think you should do it first. I think
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: you should just approach the tree, like Mattow says, like
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: very flexibly, try and be as I would say, nondual,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Try and be a forge nosis through the middle path.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: But the middle path does not mean centrism. It just
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: means that you're non reactive to the polarities, so you
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: can reconcile them inside yourself rather than you know, you
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: don't have to a lot a lot of people love
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: to do the archetypal play, right like they love to
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: go full on. So if like being left hand path
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: means like you wear a leather jacket and you wear like,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: you know, black jeans and you listen to like death metal,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: that's what the they'll take on the archetype in order
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: to embody those characteristics. But I personally think that you
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: should just be like who are you? That's probably the
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: fundamental question, like what is your malcouth? That's what I
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: would ask myself, and then I would traverse the tree accordingly,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: rather than trying to remake myself every single time I
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: encounter a khlipa or a cephra. I would try and
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: build the path as I go. But that is a
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: very different approach, and I know that some people don't
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: love that way because it's a little more hopema. It's
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: a little more like what people would describe as droy
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: on or like crazy wisdom is how that word is
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: often translated, although that doesn't really what it means. But yeah,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: that like even David would use that word to describe,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: like how I approach a tree. It's very droy on.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: It's very like wisdom. It's not necessarily rooted so much textually.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: So I do think there's a use in studying it.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: I just think that people are doing it as it's
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: not a remediation of the tree. It's not like you
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: don't go to the dark side because you were raised evangelic,
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Like you don't. You don't do it to get back
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: at your daddy issues. It doesn't. It actually is gonna
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: make those so much worse approaching the light side tree.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: That can make some of like what your perception is like,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: not anyone here, but I'm saying like it can make
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: you very egoic. It can make you very feel like
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: you are virtuous like you are very taad, very like,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Oh I am righteous, like a crusader. That's a very like,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: that's a good archetype sort of like it's like a
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: little overly geveratic because you're sort of reaching for this.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: You're you're positioning yourself in a tent in a place
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: of tension because you're severe and you're kind of restrictive.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: So I do think that both trees present kleep us.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: I don't think that the the night Side Tree is
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: inherently worse or like evil. I just think that it's
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: all about how you approach it. And I think if
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: you approach it more flexibly conceptually and you're willing to
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: let it go, that's what it will serve you, because
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: there will be ideas that you encounter that you will
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: agree with and that you will be like, Okay, well,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: how will this further understand How will this further my
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: understanding of the tree, rather than how will this allow
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: me to do magic? Like I'm again I'm a speculat
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: of cabalist. I'm not. I don't use it for magic,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: So that's just my pace.
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: You just you just contemplated in the exact way David
• 31:26
  Speaker 5: Heims Smith thinks people should, so he might call you
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: very cabalistic if we go with his definition. You've said
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: so many great things. I don't know if I recall
• 31:37
  Speaker 5: everything you said, but every response I had as you
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: went along. But there's two main ones that really stand out.
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: First of all, I generally really think your own point
• 31:46
  Speaker 5: there with that, And for a couple of reasons. Firstly,
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: let me say that that's exactly what you were saying
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: at the start. Why I think the hermineutic found in
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: Saint John of the Cross's spiritual exercises and interpretation is
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: so effective with our understanding of the clippo as a
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: foil as a method of theorgy because he is not
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: ignorant of the fact that what is often seen as
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: good can easily become clipathic. That's invaluable, and my workshop
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: will go into the details of that. But if anyone
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: wants to prepare for my workshop or understand my second
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: edition of the book coming out, go get David Himes
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: Smith's Darky a Black Ether book. There's still a few
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: copies available, I think, before it's sold out forever. But
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: even better, take his course on transmuting the clip both.
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: It costs a couple bucks, for sure, But it's and
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: it's it's four or five hours, I think, but it's
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: it's brilliant. It's brilliant, and it complements very nicely other
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: methods of working. It's not like, oh, this is a
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: whole new way of understanding it that rejects whatever you're
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: currently doing. Not at all. It'll it'll help many people
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: with their way of working. Not everyone, but it'll it'll
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: it'll augment nicely to a lot of people's practices. And
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: that's the great thing about David Heimsmith is he he
• 33:09
  Speaker 5: has developed a system of spiritual alchemical kabbola that does
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: fit in very well and complementary to most magicians work,
• 33:20
  Speaker 5: in my opinion. And that leads to the point of
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: the cleapout themselves. Like you were saying, yes, of course
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: they are. They are there as part of the field
• 33:30
  Speaker 5: of phenomena that we experience, and they are not some
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: rejection of reality or some evil opponent to the to
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: the One good. They are a part of reality. They
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: are cacodaimonse if you like. Right there, everything is slightly
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: dirty outside of the Mona, the One, the Father, the Good,
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: or whatever you want to see it as. But that's
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: just the words that the you know, Hermetic pagans in
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: Alexandria in the third century, we saw it as and
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: so from their point of view, they would see these
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: clipout if you were just if they were to hear
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: what we were saying, they would say, oh, those are cocodaimonos.
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: Though they're spirits that may exist only in our mind
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: or our psychology, or in the earth, in the air,
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: and they're dirtier than most because they are part of
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: these processes that are often categorized as evil by human beings. However,
• 34:25
  Speaker 5: you know, the thing the same as the cacodaimon is
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: in the Inochian magic system, which are certain names done
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: in reverse with a few other little things tacked on
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: to make them function. And they yeah, and they are
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: things that generate disease and cancers and illness and evil
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: things in the world. But something has to be the
• 34:48
  Speaker 5: agents of those forces, and that's what they are. And
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: we understand God better because of them. So it's they're
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: necessary and they're not something to be seen or as
• 35:02
  Speaker 5: to be rejected entirely, for sure, I agree with you entirely.
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: I also wanted to bring an example, maybe real quick,
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: of how doing something good can become a khlifah. Right, Like, imagine,
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: imagine again, you have kids and you want the best
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: for them, obviously, right you You imagine, Okay, I want
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: the best round kids. So you work a lot, you
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: get a lot of money, and then you think, okay,
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: every time my kid, my kid needs money, I'll just
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: give them money. Well, if you do this long enough,
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: eventually this love of yours that you want them to
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: succeed can actually nullify them because they know always you
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: know that, and mom can hook me up and I
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: can do whatever the I want. So then you kind
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: of are like creating this kleifa on them that they again,
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: you're basically nullifying them. You're removing their active energy. That's
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: even so again this is coming out of love, but
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: you're breaking something. So it's very and it's then it's
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: gonna be hard, right Like again, you're you want to
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: make it work. But at the same time, maybe there's
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: you know, a lot of crazy stuff. So that's why
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: it's very interesting to study and practice all of this.
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: I'm so glad you said that. It actually gives me
• 36:24
  Speaker 5: a chance to make a really good give a really
• 36:26
  Speaker 5: good example of that. So like you were saying that,
• 36:30
  Speaker 5: you know, the spoiling kids can lead to them being
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: non functional. I mean in pop culture they say that's
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: the problem with gen z. They were helicopter parented or
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: or overly protected, and therefore they lost basic social skills
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: and socialization and don't know how to talk to people.
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: Like that's what we hear in pop culture. And I
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: don't know if that's that's not universally true, but it
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: seems to be an issue. So good things can become bad.
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: Good things can be like the money that a wealth
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: the parent might constantly feed into their kid prevents them
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: from learning how to find value in work and labor
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: and personal accomplishment. If you rob a human being of
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: the sense of personal accomplishment, well you're actually changing their
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: brain chemistry into something incredibly dysfunctional that will eradicate all
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: kinds of opportunities for contentment in their lives. And one
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: of the quotes in my book is really key, one
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: of the key quotes that addresses that right, which is holiness,
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: is not defined by how little we have sinned, but
• 37:39
  Speaker 5: rather how much sin we have transformed and purified into virtue.
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: So that spoiling parent creating a klipa out of something
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: intended to be good becomes a challenge that that person
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: then has to work through and transmute back into something good.
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: How do you transmute being given endless opportunity and protections
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: by a parent, wealthier not and so that you never
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: have to actually struggle, Well, then you have to struggle
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: with the opportunities that you have to struggle with them,
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: wealth and money or riches or protection or favoritism you
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: get as a nepo baby or whatever right that becomes
• 38:17
  Speaker 5: your kleipaw to be purified so that you can get
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: back to what life is actually all about, which is
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: you know, well, I don't know what life's actually all about,
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: but I have a few ideas Thanksgiving to get back
• 38:33
  Speaker 5: to thanksgiving that is the hermetic view of what life's
• 38:36
  Speaker 5: all about. So you know, they can rob you of
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: your ability to give thanks for existing if they just
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: keep giving you everything you want and always pay rent
• 38:44
  Speaker 5: and you never have to have to struggle to take
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: care of yourself, which is the model by which we
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: learn to take care of and be a show loving
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: kindness and generosity to others.
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: I said, exactly, And then can you flipped the thing
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: where now they kind of expected there and expected more
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: so eventually though, it's like it becomes kind of a
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: glutony on let's say that the kids or whatever the
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: person which is receiving, so again it becomes the klifa
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: of Hessid, right, because now it's the opposite. They want
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: everything all the time. So it's very interesting. But when
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: you see it in real life being played.
• 39:22
  Speaker 5: I have an example from my life there was I
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: went to private school. I went to Walder School thirteen
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: years so I was. I was there without paying really
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: they the school allowed a few kids each year that
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: whose parents couldn't afford it, and I was one of them.
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: So I grew up surrounded by really spoiled millionaire kids,
• 39:41
  Speaker 5: hippie millionaires for the most part, but millionaires nonetheless, like
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: in the most rich area of Canada, West Vancouver, North Vancouver,
• 39:50
  Speaker 5: mainly west. But yeah, there was this one kid named Kyler.
• 39:53
  Speaker 5: I won't say his last name, but his god dad
• 39:57
  Speaker 5: was rich as god, and he had everything he could
• 39:59
  Speaker 5: ever want. And every time I noticed as we got older,
• 40:02
  Speaker 5: and he was younger than me, so I didn't hang
• 40:04
  Speaker 5: out with him a lot when I was younger. But
• 40:05
  Speaker 5: you know, as you age up, you start to hang
• 40:07
  Speaker 5: out with ages level out into early adulthood. And he
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: would like many of us, would you know, because you
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: don't always have money when you were a kid, or
• 40:16
  Speaker 5: a teenager or a young adult even you know, sometimes
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: we would pay for each other. He would do this
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: thing where he'd offer to pay, and then next time
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: I saw you, he would hand you a letter with
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: an invoice and terms for repayment. This kid had no
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: need of anything in life, but his dad had taught
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: them that the way that works is by basically being
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: careful and watching your money. But that played out in
• 40:44
  Speaker 5: him in terms of him being very miserly and not
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: having the ability to do something nice for someone else
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: for purely that reason, because for him, money was this entity,
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: this clipa this shell that existed and had been ratified
• 41:02
  Speaker 5: as penny pinching. That's how you get rich. So he
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: lost the ability to be capable of generosity. Yeah, I
• 41:10
  Speaker 5: remember he had to be an invoice once when he
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: paid for that the you know, the first Star Wars
• 41:15
  Speaker 5: movie when it came out, So we just graduated high school,
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: I'd say at that point. I think it was two
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: thousand when that came out, and I just laughed at
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: his face. I was like, hey, dude, don't offer to
• 41:28
  Speaker 5: pay for someone and then invoice them, like unless you're
• 41:32
  Speaker 5: loaning them the money, like and in the adult like,
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: let's if you loan someone money versus pay for something,
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: that's two different things. We're all adults here, we all
• 41:41
  Speaker 5: know what that looks like. We all understand how that
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: plays out in social niceties. You're right, they're definitely different things.
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: You don't you don't offer to buy someone dinner and
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: then send them a fucking.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: Jeezuz.
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: It was hilarious though, and I think he had never
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: seen a reaction in his life like mine. I just
• 41:59
  Speaker 5: laughed in his face and threw it away in front
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: of him, and he was he was stunned. He couldn't
• 42:05
  Speaker 5: believe what he was experiencing.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Well that this is quite common among Hassids, like among
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: like a Jewish coubleists, is that they will utilize contractual
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: obligation a hava. Some people would call it like the
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: tefolium chord, like the actual physical chord of the teflin
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: that will use it to bind sepharatic ideas to these
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: kind of contractual obligations. Because a hava can be also
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: understood as a contractual love, obligatory love. So this is
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: a very common kleipa that I've encountered since I've become
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: a better couplist and like since I started studying like
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: more seriously, is like this exact thing. And I'm not
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: saying it's like just exclusive to them. I don't think
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: it is. It's a very common klipa of hesseid, and
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: it's how hesseid can go very wrong, just like being
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: overly generous is also a klipa of hesseid, and that
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: can also go very wrong. It's like, I think it
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: goes back to the point about like not being an extremity,
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, it's it's amazing to be an extremely generous person.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: But also like I think for me, maybe this will
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: sound really solesistic, and people can, you know, correct me
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: if they think it is. But I think that you
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: have to worry about your own malcuth number one, And
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: it's not to the exclusion of other people or they're
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: like their lives, especially if you're entangled karmically or socially
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: or you know, romantically whatever. But it's also like making
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: sure that that is tight. Number one. And then you
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: can see about Hesseid. So for me, that's how I
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: approach a tree. And perhaps this is what makes me
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: slightly more left hand path or maybe even more leftown path.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: But I but I'm okay with that. I can reconcile
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: that to me that you have to like take care
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: of yourself. This is something that I've only learned in
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: my thirties, that you have to be like your number
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: one arbiter of your own. You have to be an
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: agent of your of yourself, of your own quote unquote
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: destiny or karma or fate or whatever it is. You
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: cannot It's not an over reliance on others in terms
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: of like even the support structures that you may have
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: in terms in terms of tension or crisis, those can
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: also falter. So you have to make sure that your
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: so that your foundation is stable enough that you can
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: even weather very adverse conditions. So I'm still working on it.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying this from like a you know,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: Clydesdale or anything like that. I'm I'm definitely not. I'm
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: just saying this is like my real experience with it
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: is that you have to be really careful with has
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: said because it's so powerful like that capacity for giving,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: the capacity for generosity, the capacity for love, even romantic love,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: like it can go really wrong. That's why I always like,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: we always talk about it. For Gray Lodge, it's like
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: so important that like hessied gevra geburrah goadullah Hessed dean connection,
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: it has to be in synthesis. It has to be
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: in synthesis, otherwise you're going to go way too far
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: off into a klipa in my opinion. That's just my opinion,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: but I agree, but I agree with what Forever's saying.
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, psychologists actually have a really good understanding. I think
• 45:26
  Speaker 5: of exactly what you're talking about though, or maybe what
• 45:29
  Speaker 5: you're talking about from another aspect to in terms of
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: an overabundance of hesse, of loving, kindness, of generosity. So,
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: and we see this in friendships, in relationships, especially romantic relationships,
• 45:41
  Speaker 5: where one person is going too quickly and the other
• 45:45
  Speaker 5: person's not a not there yet right, It usually is
• 45:48
  Speaker 5: disrupt destructive to the relationship romantically, especially because you know
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: the other person's just not there yet. So you got
• 45:54
  Speaker 5: to use din and judgment right to balance Hessed with
• 46:00
  Speaker 5: your own cognizance so that you match the person, and
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: psychologists have explained this now really well of why over
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: giving to someone, for example, is an abuse of them,
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: because you're pushing and forcing upon them the the the
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: urge to elevate the relationship beyond where they're at, and
• 46:22
  Speaker 5: that becomes an imposition that you're forcing upon them, whether
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: romantically or just in friendship or even familiar relationships. Right,
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: And I've struggled with that. You know, when you want
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: to be generous, sometimes you want to be generous, or
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: when others are generous or too generous, it can make
• 46:39
  Speaker 5: you feel uncomfortable. And I think that's a really good
• 46:42
  Speaker 5: psychological example of what you're talking about. Actually, this is
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: something well known at least, so that's cool.
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: That's really interesting that that whole breakdown you just said
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: right there, cheers, thank you.
• 47:04
  Speaker 6: Maybe still thinking, I wonder if I have an example
• 47:10
  Speaker 6: from the Seven Deadly Sins on that one.
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: Maybe not, but let me give you a little because
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: you know, I prepared a little snippet from each of
• 47:23
  Speaker 5: the so when we look at here's just another snippet
• 47:26
  Speaker 5: from the workshop I'll be giving at Inokiacon in Austin
• 47:30
  Speaker 5: at an Arcane Research Society Spring Workshop. Not at a
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: Nokia con. But if you sign up for both one,
• 47:36
  Speaker 5: you get all of it. So avarice is not just
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: material greed. It's for example, recording of teachings or secrets, systems, tools,
• 47:45
  Speaker 5: and status. And the sin is found in those who
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: are never really satisfied with the teachings they are giving.
• 47:52
  Speaker 5: They're always seeking more, right, They're not able to balance
• 47:56
  Speaker 5: what they have with what they want. And so this
• 47:58
  Speaker 5: turns the true secret to a greedy treasure hunter collecting
• 48:01
  Speaker 5: spells and Grimor's crystals, cards and all of you know,
• 48:05
  Speaker 5: great ranks for example, and that that's what leads to
• 48:09
  Speaker 5: this sort of spiritual consumerism that imbalances us with that
• 48:15
  Speaker 5: particular clip boat on the astral triangle, right, we're talking
• 48:19
  Speaker 5: NETSC and hode that balance there. So there's a there's
• 48:24
  Speaker 5: one sort of manifestation of that. Another one would be gluttony,
• 48:32
  Speaker 5: which is the spiritual consumption for self pleasure. And I
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: say this synergy is seen when the magician performs rituals
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: repeatedly for self pleasure, and their only pleasure being that
• 48:42
  Speaker 5: what they themselves are inclined to do. Right, Oh, I
• 48:46
  Speaker 5: want to I like this, so I do this. We
• 48:48
  Speaker 5: often will think that that's a good thing. But I
• 48:52
  Speaker 5: suggest you ask yourself a tough and possibly nasty sort
• 48:59
  Speaker 5: of question, which is, are you doing this ritual for
• 49:01
  Speaker 5: transformation or are you doing the spiritual practice to change
• 49:04
  Speaker 5: yourself and to grow or because you just like the
• 49:06
  Speaker 5: feeling it gives you. Right, I think that's a perspective
• 49:11
  Speaker 5: on it we don't usually see as we get further
• 49:14
  Speaker 5: down the path.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: Bliss consciousness can be very No, it's a good point
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: because bliss consciousness can be addictive in the in specific context.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: You see this a lot on Buddhist Twitter. Not to
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: be like that person who references Twitter, but as a
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: Buddhist who is on like has a big account that's
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: on Twitter. I see this quite often. You'll have people
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: talking about like Jona States or some of the other
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: non tontric ways to get to certain kinds of consciousness
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: that we would describe in contra, but they use like
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: more I guess it's more pared down secular methodology to
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: get there there, and you see them sort of like
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: have realizations, but then it's because they don't. It's not
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: con creed, it's not rooted anywhere, and so this is
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: maybe an interesting point is like they don't even have
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: a conceptual framework, they don't even have a collopathic framework
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: to contain what they're actually doing. So then after the experience,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: they just kind of get lost in it, and then
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: they become addicted to that feeling because that is they
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: are hitting maybe you could call it death or maybe
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: g nosis or whatever you want to call it. Sure,
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: but they're also hitting that like pleasurable bliss state, which
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: is fine and in a Tontic way. We would know
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: how to deal with that because that is a big
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: part of contra, not sex. I'm just saying bliss consciousness.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: But you know, I understand, like I get it, like
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: people do get addicted to things. I was even thinking
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: glutt me when you were initially saying it freight or
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: it's like I do think though hesse provides its own remedy,
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: which is perhaps why it's often considered the most powerful sephra,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: which is love has to exist in perception. Both people
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: must recognize that they like, whether we're talking familial, romantic friendship,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: anything like, both people must be in mutual agreement. That
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: is the true ahava, in my opinion, is that it's
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: you're in like a mutual relational agreement that you're both
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: friends or both in love or whatever it is, or
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: that you're like you have an equilimbrium, an equipos as,
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: like even in a familiar relationship, like you have to
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: have some kind of balance. So yeah, I think that
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: that's what Hesseid actually can give. But it's a much
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: deeper meaning than most people treat Hesset.
• 51:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, since you mentioned that, I love that you mentioned
• 51:37
  Speaker 5: that because it ties right into my my looking at
• 51:40
  Speaker 5: the sin of hesse the said deadly sin of Hesseid,
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: which I treat as envy, and so I present that
• 51:47
  Speaker 5: as a fracturing of the self, not just jealousy of others.
• 51:51
  Speaker 5: And so the shells of Hesset or the shell of
• 51:55
  Speaker 5: hesse the klipa of Hesseid, use envy to break us
• 51:58
  Speaker 5: in pieces within ourselves, and therefore to be envious, for example,
• 52:03
  Speaker 5: of a fellow initiate who progresses apparently faster than we do,
• 52:07
  Speaker 5: is just to be diluted, because we're all one, of course,
• 52:10
  Speaker 5: and united ultimately in reality and in God. And so
• 52:17
  Speaker 5: you know, envy then isn't just wanting what someone else has,
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: it's actually losing contact with your own path.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: I love that you said that because it actually matches
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: the Buddhist framework that I've given for has said on
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: the show many times, is that I've alwa said, I
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: liken it to green Tara, blue green Tara from Buddhism
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: because her remedy her the mental cliche. So the mental
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: poison that she remedies is actually envy, and elementally it
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: fits and as well because the soundscrit sort of color
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: theory and color magic it describes. Even though Hesse's usually
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: described that the outer density as blue, which is I
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: agree with it is fine, but in like Buddhist color magic,
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: blue is also related, always related to green, so there's
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: always like a blue green sort of turquoise element. And
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: if you look at like what the Ramak was saying,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: like Rabbi Cordovero, he was talking about the turquoise quality
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: of Hessaid, the turquoise quality of God, which is really
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: like water or like ice, which is actually really clear.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: And so it's really interesting because there's the exact parallel
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: in Buddhism that like the sort of diamond thunder clarity, rigpa,
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, primordial ground consciousness that
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: is also turquoise. So I don't know, which is also clear,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: is what I'm trying to say. But turquoise is considered
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: blue green. So there's a really interesting sort of like
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: elemental association with HESD being like the ocean, but there's
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: also like the air, there's water vapor, which you could
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: say is hope ma. It's sort of like this interstitial
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: the supernal waters. I've heard it called many times. I've
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: called it out myself, and like a sort of a
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: tension in the waters below and the waters above that
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: creates like a stable field of lightning. Like that's a
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: very has said way to sort of conceptualize the suffra.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: So I agree with you. I think that's really interesting
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: that you tied it to envy because that's exactly how
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: I would treat it as well.
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, yeah, I love how how in sync we
• 54:21
  Speaker 5: are on so much here today. It's great. It's great, Jen,
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: You're You're awesome man. I'd love to come back, of
• 54:29
  Speaker 5: course and do a clip ooat part two with you guys.
• 54:32
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, in a couple months before before the spring
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: workshop in Austin, which I hope everyone goes and signs
• 54:39
  Speaker 5: up for at at Arcane Research Society dot com, Forward
• 54:43
  Speaker 5: slash twenty twenty six, because it's going to be a
• 54:46
  Speaker 5: good workshop. You can attend online or in person. And yeah,
• 54:50
  Speaker 5: Jason Louver will be presenting and Craig Williams, both guys
• 54:54
  Speaker 5: who know a lot about the cliphoath as well. And yeah,
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: I'll hopefully be a very enlightening wereifying a full day
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: of workshops for everyone who attends.
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: Nice, nice, Yeah, I look forward to that. I want
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: to try to make that actually.
• 55:11
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, you and I have to talk a lot.
• 55:12
  Speaker 5: We've got a lot to talk about, so I'll instagram
• 55:15
  Speaker 5: you and and hopefully we can actually have a phone
• 55:17
  Speaker 5: call and talk about because you know, we wanted we're
• 55:19
  Speaker 5: doing all these events and next year we're in Prague
• 55:22
  Speaker 5: and doing events in Europe, so like you know, we
• 55:25
  Speaker 5: need to start getting pro some pro footage to bang
• 55:28
  Speaker 5: out some documentaries. Along the way.
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: That was actually a place we want to go, Broil
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: come with us. Yeah, I have an excuse, I have.
• 55:39
  Speaker 5: I have a whole proposal for you. So maybe after
• 55:42
  Speaker 5: this we can maybe I can later tonight if you're free,
• 55:44
  Speaker 5: I can give you a ring.
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: All right? Yeah, yeah, yeah sure. Did anybody else have
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: any other questions? Because it is it's already after two hours.
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: I just realized, so maybe we could wrap it up
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: and do a part two in the future. Like you said,
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: I did have If any anybody doesn't have a quote,
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: any questions, I do have one more that I thought
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: maybe we could try to end it with. I guess
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: kind of like after everything, like, what is it really
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: to you that you're actually working on or getting out
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: of this?
• 56:21
  Speaker 5: What is this my spiritual life?
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 56:39
  Speaker 5: The word that keeps coming to me, seemingly from above
• 56:42
  Speaker 5: is fullness. And maybe that isn't the perfect word or
• 56:46
  Speaker 5: a full description, but it sure does help me survive
• 56:53
  Speaker 5: the brutality of this world. And as anyone who knows
• 56:56
  Speaker 5: me knows, I've had a brutal recent few years well
• 57:02
  Speaker 5: from covid On, especially with the loss of my sister
• 57:05
  Speaker 5: or the other like beyond brutal, and if you know
• 57:07
  Speaker 5: the circumstances that led up to that, it's unimaginable. Obviously
• 57:12
  Speaker 5: there's always people who go through worse things, of course,
• 57:16
  Speaker 5: but yeah, I think I would have died a long
• 57:18
  Speaker 5: time ago without my spiritual path to, if not always
• 57:22
  Speaker 5: keep me balanced, help me find my way back when
• 57:25
  Speaker 5: I get lost. And then there's the fact that on
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: the Hermetic path you you proceed so that you can
• 57:35
  Speaker 5: also help guide others. That's an inherent part of Hermetica
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: teachings and hermetic spirituality is that you are there to
• 57:43
  Speaker 5: experience awakening so that you can then help guide others
• 57:47
  Speaker 5: to that same fullness, which is the initiation into your
• 57:54
  Speaker 5: higher consciousness, your news, your which gives you access to everything,
• 57:59
  Speaker 5: ever where, and all of it, the wholeness of existence,
• 58:03
  Speaker 5: according again to the ancient Egyptian and Greco Egyptian Hermetica
• 58:08
  Speaker 5: and those teachings. And that's what has lined up since
• 58:11
  Speaker 5: I was young with my natural experience of the world
• 58:13
  Speaker 5: as a meditating yoga kid, just inherently reaching out into
• 58:19
  Speaker 5: nature and existence and saying what the fuck and listening
• 58:23
  Speaker 5: to what came back to me from existence, and nothing
• 58:28
  Speaker 5: has described that journey as clearly as the hermetic writings have,
• 58:32
  Speaker 5: and then the various traditions that grew out of it
• 58:35
  Speaker 5: and developed tools and techniques and initiation systems to guide
• 58:40
  Speaker 5: us along the way.
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: That was great, Thank you man.
• 58:45
  Speaker 5: Another way of saying that is it helps me love
• 58:48
  Speaker 5: others and myself better. And that's what better way to
• 58:57
  Speaker 5: love God, right than others and ourselves, because to not
• 59:02
  Speaker 5: do that is to profane what we have been given
• 59:05
  Speaker 5: by God or nature or reality, however you want to
• 59:09
  Speaker 5: conceptualize it. Again, I tend to not think theistically. But
• 59:14
  Speaker 5: you know.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: Asterisk as DCS says, there's no problem with God like
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: I have no problem discussing it as God either or
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: as the tree like I don't. I've said this many times,
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: like on recording, no problem that there's no problem to
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: like say God, or like I would say like Shiva
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: or like Shiva consciousness or whatever framework you want to use.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: I have no problem. I think it's I think it's fine.
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: I think it depends on your audience. So I wasn't
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: trying to be overly corrected before Freder I just to
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: make sure that you know, like, if I said something,
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: it wasn't going to be in contradiction to like the
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: framework that you laid out.
• 59:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, of course I get it. Yeah. My whole main
• 59:56
  Speaker 5: academic book, my master's thesis, is all is right up
• 59:59
  Speaker 5: your alley. It's all. It's a it's a apaphatic, non metaphysical,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 5: anti auto theological approach to the ethics of understanding God.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 5: And you can get that book online. It's called the
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 5: Ethics of Understanding God. But God's got a line through
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 5: it nice, which in philosophy is called speaking under erasure,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 5: I believe it or not. So you draw a line
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 5: through a word if you want to eradicate the metaphysical
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 5: underpinnings of it, to open it up to new possible meetings.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 5: And that's Jacques Derrida.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: It's very breaking the klipa because words can.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 5: Be exactly see you see where I'm going with that? Brother, Yeah, baby.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: Like that.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 5: Love it. This has been such a treat. Thank you
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 5: so much for having me on today. I'm happy to
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 5: stick around a bit longer, but I just really appreciate
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 5: it because I'm excited to return to this topic and
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 5: to bring, you know, forty five years of experience to
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 5: it that I did not have when I first wrote
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 5: about such a major theme. And I also want to
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 5: add I don't think, I definitely know I wouldn't have
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 5: gotten into the trouble I got into when I messed
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 5: around with the cleepout in the grade of practice. Had
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 5: I been an adept, I would have had tools and
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 5: initiations that allowed me to not have any problems with that.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 5: So again, from experience, I will say it can also
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 5: be a cautionary tale of just yet, don't look, don't
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 5: leap before you look. It listened to the wisdom of others,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 5: because you don't know what you don't know, and sometimes
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 5: you just need to get to a better like if
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 5: someone had told me, it's not about hiding dark, secret
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 5: knowledge and power from you. It's just about making sure
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 5: you are stable and grounded and full enough as a
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 5: human being to be able to confront those things. I
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 5: probably would have not fucked around and found out. But
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 5: I did. I did find out. I wrote a book
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 5: on it, and now I'm rewriting that book with almost
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 5: three decades a new experience and seeing it play out
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 5: even more. Oh my god. But again I'll save that
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 5: for the book and the workshop.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: There you go. No, thank you, man. I love getting
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: you on the show. So it's always a pleasure for us.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 5: It's an honor. It's an honor.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: Thanks.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: Thanks.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: Before we wrap it up, let everybody real quick, just
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: remind everybody where they could find this stuff. Judith alone,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: what is going on?
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 7: Thank you again for having me. It's great to see you,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 7: Jin and Matt, and always a pleasure for to RC
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 7: and everyone else. You could find me on YouTube and
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 7: on x as the Loon, and you could find my
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 7: podcast on spreaker.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. Appreciate it.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: And Jin then Ninja, what is that?
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: What is up? Cardinal? Thank you so much for having
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: me on. I know it's been at it's been a minute,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: but it's you know, I've been. I was on sporadically
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: last month, so you know it was it wasn't like
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: a long hiatus, and I just needed a little, you know,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: a quick minute to get myself together as a kid say,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: and you know, sometimes it's good to deal a little,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: you know, withdrawn and just like think about like how
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: you want to proceed, like pathwork. So that's all maybe
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: just taking that moment to do that. So but yeah,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: Threshold Saints, we're rocking and rolling on the feed. I'm
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: so glad that Judith set up her feed. I saw
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: that she made that post, so everybody should check that out.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: Of course, check out Matt's work on his website, all
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: his like enter Camu and of course our stuff on
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: the Gray Lodge. I would say thank you to all
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: the sub subscribers. It's increased my shows reached by like
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: a thousand listeners per episode, so wow, Threshold Saints dotstock
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: dot com. Uh, that's the best place, but of course
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: Apple and Spotify. Ike Baker's episode, which is called Metacognition,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: will be out, yeah, probably Saturday. I'll probably finish it
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: on Saturday. It's edited, but I just I have to
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: put like my little you know, remix on it. So yeah,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: everybody can check that out. Of course, there's like the
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: three part episodes with Soschkey and then the new episode
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: with b d Those were just released in the last
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: four days, so there's plenty and there's plenty more coming
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: and Nick Nick's going to be mister ninety three, so
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: you know it's coming up really soon. So yeah, everybody
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: can check that out. And of course you can listen
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: to me and DCS hash it out with my like
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: non Dual Kabala on episode ninety one, Code of the
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: Lightning Flash, so people are interested in that. Thank you guys,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: appreciate everybody. Judith Matt afraid O r C and of course.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: Night Oh thank you. I was really happy you made
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: this topic. I know we've been talking about it for
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: probably like a year and a half. So finally made
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: it happen. Matt More, what's going on, Bud, Thank you
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: very much for making it as well.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 4: Thank you, very happy to be here, very happy to
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 4: be in this conversation. Thanks Frauder, Thanks Judith Jin and
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: mister ninety three as left when didnt says that somebody anyways,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 4: you can always find me as at Medmore nineteen. That's
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: gonna be on YouTube, act TikTok, Instagram, maybe some other place.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: And like she said, there's the project enter gamu dot
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 4: com where again always a lot of stuff going on
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: there for now behind an invite code, so if you'll join,
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 4: just them me and I'll hook you up. And there's
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: also the Kabbala Library, so that's a A A B
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: A L A H you can use. If you use Claude,
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 4: for example, as your AI, you can ask it to
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: use this library and you can do like any astro
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: calculation or numerology or matria or whatever. A lot of
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 4: colpulations are also correspondses, so if you want to see
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: obviously I mean that I'm putting the corresponses that I
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: want to put there, but the thing is open sources well,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: so if you.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 5: Want to put more, feel free.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 4: But yeah, you can see corresponses to the spheres, the
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: paths to from musical notes to western A strategy signs
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 4: and whatever you can do all sorts of crazy things.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 4: They're trying to always add more features. Anyways, your curre
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 4: is just you know, I don't kill up on that
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: as well.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: Thanks again everyone, No, thank you Man and Freda. I'll
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: see please again. Let everybody know where they can find
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: all of your stuff before it gets, you know, taken down.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: Shadow Man.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 5: Hermetic podcast dot com. Check out my Hermetic Mystery School,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 5: join my free cyber guild, join my YouTube, Patreon or website,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 5: but most importantly go to Arcane research i dot com,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 5: Forward Slash twenty twenty six or in Nokiacon dot com
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: takes you to the same page and check out the
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 5: events we're doing this year. And before I go, I'd
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 5: love to actually know where all you are in the world,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 5: because I don't think you're all in America, are you No?
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: No, I'm in North.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 5: Carolina, North Carolina in ike Ike Country.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, about six hours away from.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 5: Did you see the did you see my April Fools video?
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: No? No, no, no.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 5: Oh I I I put out a video call It's
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: just short video called simple Mage for April Fools and uh.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 5: It's uh. It starts out with the It's a song
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 5: that starts out with the lion, with the with the
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 5: phrase Ike Baker. Ike Baker taught me when I was
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 5: you know, blow it's I rewrote the words to simple
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 5: Man to be simple Mage about Ike Baker, and I
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 5: play it on guitar. Yeah, verses I need. We'll write
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 5: the rest of the verses and perform it at an
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 5: Nokia con with Icon drums. But yeah, check out two
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: verses of simple Mage. Be a simple kind of mage,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 5: be balanced without rage.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: Oh God, I gotta check this out. Nice.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 5: I didn't know where are you, Matt?
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 3: So sorry. I didn't know you played the guitar.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 5: I was a musician for almost a full time professional
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 5: musician for almost twenty years. Yeah, up until psoriasis destroyed
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 5: my hands. I'm now on the Lion diet and it
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 5: is starting to slowly recover by just eating ruminant meat
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 5: and nothing else. Yeah. I play a dozen instruments. I
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 5: have a new seven inch vinyl coming out this summer
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 5: with two new songs, The Ballad of Bridget and the
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 5: Ballad of Lou which are spell songs that I wrote
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 5: in ritual and recorded with a couple one partner, my buddy.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 5: I did all the instruments on them, bazooki, guitar, flutes, whistles,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 5: bagpipes and some other things. And then my buddy did
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 5: keys and he just wanted Juno for playing keys. Uh.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 5: His name is Justin Hagberg and his main band he
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 5: tours with his Three Inches of Blood. So we're doing
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 5: a whole album of songs based on the Tua Ja
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 5: Donna on the Tuatha Day Donna of the Irish Gods.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: Very interesting, super nice.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I was, I was. I was a folk star,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 5: folk rock and roller for a very long time and
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 5: and uh always wanted to get back to teaching and magic.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 5: But then I guess I didn't do it soon enough
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 5: in nature and the my physical body forced me to
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 5: by robbing me of the use of my hands.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: Mm hm.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: That's rough. Mhm h Matt, I don't know if.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 4: Ye.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: So, I mean I'm kind of a booemium right now.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: So I'm right now, I'm in Brazil, but I'm gonna
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 4: be in all fun next month, then back well again,
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 4: then probably somewhere else and whatever. Like, just.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 5: Are you Brazilian originally or were you born you see? Wow?
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 5: Very cool, very cool. Yeah, I'd love to get to
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 5: Brazil and my friends always send me pictures. Of course,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 5: there's also a Jewish professor there who owes me some money.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 5: So if you know any affordable.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: Bounty, I'm very curious about that.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 5: You know, one thing I will for the reason I
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 5: was sure he wouldn't rip me off was because life
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 5: is so cheap in those countries, Like, why would you
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 5: rip someone off when you live in a country where
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 5: your life is worth fifty bucks? You know what I mean.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 5: I don't want to spell it out because we're on YouTube,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 5: but that's what your life's working worth in a lot
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 5: of countries. Fifty bucks is what it costs, maybe one
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 5: hundred if they use a more significant tool. Shall we
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 5: say again, I don't want to use certain words on
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 5: this platform. But like I was, like, you're not going
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 5: to screw me over because it would take like, you
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 5: know anyway. I'm not that kind of person, of course,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 5: And so he's lucky. People take advantages off advantage of
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 5: us right hand path people because they know we aren't
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 5: gonna do harm to others.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: But yeah, Yeah, they'll come back to them. Yeah. Oh yeah,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: was there anything else you want to do? Oh? Is
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: there anything else you wanted to promote or anything? Oh? Wait?
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: Was he? That's right? You also asked where everybody.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 5: Was from Gin? Yeah, Jin, Are you in China or
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 5: Japan or someplace like that.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: I'm Canadian?
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 5: Oh right, that's I knew that. I knew that we
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 5: went over there.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: I was actually funny when you were talking about it,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: because I was a West Fan kid and I always
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: wanted to actually live in North Fan because like because
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: you can live in the forest amongst the trees.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 5: And I grew up in Lynne Valley.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: But you know, I also have lived in Asia, and
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: I've also lived in the US and also Toronto, so
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: I've I've kind of.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 5: That's crazy.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: I've lived all over my like post COVID life. I
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: was just like, I'm gonna, you know, live my quiet
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: well we'll call it like a gentry gentry larp, like
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: where I pretend to be like a gentleman farmer. So
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: that's basically what I do now, because I not what
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: I do, but it's like part of like what I
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: sort of manifested for myself. We'll call it postcover.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 5: It's incredible, incredible. So you're from the same town as
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 5: me basically, well, West Van is where my mom grew up.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 5: There on Marine Drive. They have a big place, so
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 5: you know, you know what that means. And uh, yeah,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 5: I grew up in North Inland Valley, you know, right
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 5: near Frederi Achad's grave is where I grew up and
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 5: doing ritual work at his grave is.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: You talked about this a little.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 5: When when did you leave Vancouver? Are you there? Are
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 5: you here now?
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: No, my sister still lives in Vancouver and my grandparents
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: too crazy.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 5: You have to hit me up next time you're in town.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I honestly I go. So I just
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: don't tell anyone. I just will. I'll go to Vancouver
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: for three or four days and I'll like come back
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: and just be like.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 5: We'll tell me your love.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: But sure, I'll uh we'll try and make it happen
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: the next time I'm there. And yeah, no, I mean,
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: I you know, I did like a whole like we
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: did with the Gray Lodge. So Matt and like the
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: other guy that we shouted out, Solar and obviously Joshua
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: who's also part of the Gray Lodge we did a
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: whole like eleven part series called a on of the Daughter.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: I didn't know Frederichrod's work, Like, I really didn't. I
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: was kind of like a bit of our r tard
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: on it. But yeah, I mean it's been a big
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: it's been like sort of my whole project. Like if
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: I quit podcasting tomorrow, I'll be like okay about it,
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: because I kind of we did that. We we kind
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: of like brought back the a of the Daughter working
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: in like a chaos magic kind of left hand path.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: But we yeah, yeah, we kind of did it like
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: rock and roll style on the internet.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: So rock and roll.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 5: That's awesome. And where do you live today?
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: I live on the country.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 5: Oh you're still in BC.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: No, I don't live in BC.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 5: Oh on the East coast? Yeah, okay, well that might
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 5: be where I'm heading with the cost of rent the
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 5: home season now, I'm I have my eye on a
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 5: few places, so I'll I'll let you know what I'm thinking.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 5: And it's cool.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: That I've ever dropped on the show. Yeah, yeah, respect myself.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 5: So you're a mysterious man, a man of mystery. I
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 5: love it. I love it.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: It's a ninja. Yeah.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 5: Well so like I grew up in the nineties training
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 5: in bujin Kan in West Mahan at the foot of
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 5: Grouse Mountain in on at the you know, in the
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 5: playgrounds of schools there. That's what we did our training,
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 5: just outside on the cement, in the grass and on
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 5: the hills sides and all of that. So that's what
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 5: I was. I was doing ninja training while you were
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 5: probably there growing up as an injury yourself, at least
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 5: in spirit. I'm not sure what your martial arts background is, but.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: Well I.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: Told this that my dad, like he's ethnic Chinese obviously,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: but from the Indonesia. So yeah, we grew up. We
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: grew up fighting like learning sea lot and uh also,
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: my dad knows Windschin but it's like street style kind
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: of wind hun like very like the kids would like
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: mimic other people or mimic films, but it is kind
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: of real too. So yeah, my dad's really tough, like
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: a he's like a tough he's like a you know,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: like if you've ever seen the Raid, like that's my dad.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: But just like in so.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 5: Very cool.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: My dad's like a tough guy. So he made sure
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: that my sister and I could fight and all that stuff.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 5: That's so ninjas. We probably know people in common from
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 5: the North shore Man.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah maybe, I mean mostly were from Hong Kong, so
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: maybe I don't know. I don't know how cool you
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: are with those people.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 5: I was dating a Chinese Hong Kong born fiddler for
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 5: a lot of those years that you were probably around,
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 5: and she was from there as well. So yeah, I
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 5: mean that's the Vancouver way, right.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: True.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 5: Man's wild, fantastic, awesome, it's bugged up.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, you.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 5: Guys just get cooler and cooler.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, see, that's what happens. That's that's what we keep
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: on having your own too. Thank you very much.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 5: Man cheers.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 3: That was really that was really Uh, that was a lot.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 5: A lot my pleasure. I came prepared.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: No, you definitely did. He definitely did well. After I
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 3: realized how much work you put into it. When you
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: told me last time, I was like, oh fuck, definitely
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 3: got to get you on, you know. So yeah, me
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 3: and Jenna talked about trying to do the topic and
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: I was just like, it's kind of a heavy thing
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: to talk on. And once you had mentioned something, I
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 3: was like, well fuck it, I'll just have you on,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 5: I think there's a choice. This has done a very
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 5: good job. I think the collaboration was a very effective
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 5: way of dealing with this, especially with Jin's points, but
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 5: with everyone here teasing out the ideas so that people
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 5: could listening, so everyone in the audience could really get
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 5: a sense of broad perspectives that they can give them
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 5: more avenues and inroads to the topic without feeling, you know,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 5: sort of gang rushed into popular avenues of approach and
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 5: methodologies and often be sensationalized and dangerous if you really
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 5: take them the wrong way.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 3: Agree, totally agree, and thank you very much. That's what
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 3: we're trying to do here, I think, so all right,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 3: thank you very much. Again, was anything that you wanted
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: to promote your YouTube and stuff? Again? Is there anything
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 3: that you left out?
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 5: Fred Orc on YouTube? Come subscribe, you know and like
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 5: my if you can't support by joining becoming a member.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 5: The new algorithm on YouTube disproportionately favors likes, So if
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 5: you like your favorite creators videos or just go through
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 5: a bunch of their videws and like them has a
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 5: massively disproportionate effect for us on YouTube these days, you
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 5: literally change someone's life by just liking their videos. It's crazy,
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 5: So go like and subscribe if you want, but definitely
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 5: do the liking because you really can change the game
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 5: for someone.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: That is very true. Like, subscribe comments if you want. Definitely,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: all that stuff actually helps, I think with the algorithm. Yeah,
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: all right, well again, we'll definitely get you back on
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 3: for a part too. I'm sure there's plenty. I actually
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: there was a lot of questions I didn't even ask,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 3: so I mean, yeah, we could totally have another one.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: And thank you all again for coming on. It was
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 3: a little bit longer than I expected, but I think
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 3: it was awesome. It went better than I could even
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: have ever imagined. And thank you everybody in the chat.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of people here looked like from the
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 3: beginning to the end. That's what's tough. That's awesome. That's
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: definitely putting in some work. I appreciate it. That's where
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: we go live and until the next one, everybody be
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 3: well later.