Latest / This Is My Circus / 🎪Ep 99: Conversations With a Killer: The Trial That Finally Took Down Charles Manson | Helter Skelter, The Manson Family & True Crime Breakdown

Transcript

🎪Ep 99: Conversations With a Killer: The Trial That Finally Took Down Charles Manson | Helter Skelter, The Manson Family & True Crime Breakdown · This Is My Circus

• 0:00
  I'm Stephanie.
• 0:00
  I'm Meredith.
• 0:01
  And welcome to This Is My Circus.
• 0:02
  What are we doing today?
• 0:03
  We're doing Conversations With a Killer documentary, Charles Manson.
• 0:06
  All right, so we're now entering episode three.
• 0:09
  Yeah.
• 0:10
  The trial of the century.
• 0:11
  Oh, my gosh.
• 0:12
  let's real quick, how was he, like, found out to be naughty in prison?
• 0:18
  so one of the people that was arrested on a different charge ends up singing like a canary.
• 0:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 0:24
  So she spills the beans, and they get Manson.
• 0:27
  What was her name?
• 0:27
  Susan.
• 0:28
  Susan.
• 0:28
  Atkins.
• 0:29
  Yes.
• 0:29
  And she was, like, a huge, asset to them pinning him down and, and getting him and the family.
• 0:36
  Right, mm-hmm.
• 0:37
  So, let's see.
• 0:38
  The family essentially gets themselves caught,'cause the dummies that they are.
• 0:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 0:43
  At the Parker Ranch, some members who aren't involved in the murder are starting to realize something very bad happened, because they didn't go home and tell everybody what happened.
• 0:52
  But, now they're starting to- Put the pieces together.
• 0:55
  Right.
• 0:55
  Yeah.
• 0:56
  So Diane Lake hears Susan Atkins and the others talking about the killings, while Stephanie becomes terrified enough to sneak away after Manson had threatened to kill her if she left.
• 1:06
  Meanwhile, the family, is hiding in literally one of the most isolated imaginable places ever, and decides to burn an earthmover what's that word?
• 1:15
  It's like a big tractor thing.
• 1:16
  Okay.
• 1:16
  Oh.
• 1:17
  I was like,"Well, how the...
• 1:18
  Why did I even write that?"'Cause you knew you, that I would know what it was.
• 1:21
  Maybe they said it in the documentary.
• 1:22
  It, it did, yeah.
• 1:23
  Okay.
• 1:24
  Earthmover.
• 1:27
  Doesn't look like that just rolls off your tongue frequently.
• 1:32
  Not in my wheelhouse- of knowledge.
• 1:35
  Not, there's not much in there.
• 1:37
  I just said that to, um, Light Guy the other day.
• 1:39
  I was like,"I think, like, my brain s- doesn't have the capacity anymore- It's full to take in new things." Mm-hmm.
• 1:46
  Yeah.
• 1:46
  I, I understand that completely.
• 1:48
  'Cause If anything new goes in, it's gonna have to, like, something has to go.
• 1:51
  You have to get rid of something.
• 1:52
  Yeah.
• 1:52
  And there might be something else that needs to stay.
• 1:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:55
  So we're just tapped out.
• 1:56
  Okay, so, So they set the earthmover on fire.
• 1:59
  Yeah.
• 2:02
  It's just, it's, it's a weird word.
• 2:04
  It is a real weird word.
• 2:06
  Blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 2:06
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:07
  Okay.
• 2:08
  Okay, shockingly there Police investigate because shockingly there aren't many suspects wandering Death Valley.
• 2:10
  They raid the Barker Ranch- Mm-hmm and find Manson hiding in a tiny cupboard because he's such a tiny little man.
• 2:16
  He's in, like, the spice cabinet that's, like, this big.
• 2:19
  I'm picturing, the Night at the Museum.
• 2:22
  Oh, yeah.
• 2:22
  Those little, Owen Wilson and the other guy.
• 2:25
  Yeah, that small.
• 2:26
  Yeah.
• 2:27
  Uh-huh.
• 2:28
  He was filthy, dressed in homemade deer skin.
• 2:32
  Ew.
• 2:32
  This is the last time he's ever a free man.
• 2:36
  Thank freaking God.
• 2:37
  Oh, my God.
• 2:38
  Mm-mm.
• 2:39
  I'm glad they didn't F up his whole incarceration and everything.
• 2:43
  Yeah.
• 2:44
  Ugh.
• 2:44
  But the police still don't know that they have the killers- Right'cause they're still thinking that they're just after- Aha, car parts.
• 2:48
  Yeah.
• 2:50
  So authorities have the Manson Family in custody.
• 2:54
  They're still not putting two and two together because why would they?
• 2:58
  And then Susan Atkins, like you said earlier, does what ultimately breaks the case- Mm-hmm and starts spilling the beans.
• 3:05
  Yep.
• 3:06
  She starts bragging to her jail mates, basically tells a- all the inmates,"Oh, you know those Sharon Tate murders everybody's talking about?
• 3:12
  Yep, that was us." Yep.
• 3:14
  Big dummy.
• 3:14
  Big dummy.
• 3:15
  But thank God she was a big dummy.
• 3:17
  Right.
• 3:17
  And gives details only someone involved would know.
• 3:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 3:20
  The inmates tell authorities, and the LAPD finally connects it all.
• 3:26
  Way to go, guys.
• 3:27
  So after all that police work, the case is suddenly solved because Susan couldn't keep her trap shut.
• 3:33
  Thank God.
• 3:33
  But- I'm glad women like to blab But could you imagine Charlie's face?
• 3:38
  Which one told?
• 3:40
  He's like yelling through the vents.
• 3:41
  Uh-huh.
• 3:42
  "You're done." No.
• 3:44
  He couldn't reach the vents.
• 3:47
  So and then I think this documentary actually, points out, how embarrassing this had to be for the LAPD.
• 3:53
  I mean, yeah.
• 3:54
  It's like Keystone Cops kind of thing.
• 3:57
  We couldn't figure it out, but one little person bragging about something.
• 4:00
  Yeah.
• 4:01
  So now the trials begin, in 1970, and this is just a media circus.
• 4:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 4:06
  Manson shows up with a X carved into his forehead saying he has X'd himself out of society.
• 4:13
  And so then what happens?
• 4:15
  The women do it, too.
• 4:16
  Yes.
• 4:16
  Right between the brows.
• 4:20
  I can't imagine.
• 4:22
  If you're gonna do it, I guess.
• 4:24
  I mean, sure.
• 4:26
  Yeah.
• 4:27
  Then the women outside the courthouse start...
• 4:28
  yeah, not even the women involved.
• 4:29
  It's random...
• 4:30
  It's just- It's like women who write murderers in prison.
• 4:33
  It's like, ooh.
• 4:35
  Could you imagine if, you think that they're in there for life, right?
• 4:37
  They're never getting out.
• 4:38
  Mm-hmm.
• 4:38
  So you marry this dude, and then something happens and he gets out.
• 4:41
  They get parole or whatever, and you're like,"Oh, my God." No.
• 4:45
  No, none of that sounds like anything I would ever experience.
• 4:50
  Same.
• 4:51
  Like, oh.
• 4:52
  Yeah.
• 4:53
  So these women camp outside, they're chanting.
• 4:56
  I mean, like...
• 4:57
  And I just don't understand it.
• 4:59
  Like, I don't get it.
• 5:00
  Yeah.
• 5:00
  It doesn't make any sense to me.
• 5:01
  I know.
• 5:01
  I know.
• 5:01
  He's short, he's not attractive.
• 5:02
  I don't get it.
• 5:03
  I don't care how charismatic someone is.
• 5:05
  I don't, uh- Same.
• 5:07
  Yeah.
• 5:07
  But, it's not even like he has, the whole, like- Right bad boy look.
• 5:10
  Like- Right.
• 5:11
  There's noth- l- nothing.
• 5:13
  No.
• 5:13
  Uh, yeah, I don't get it either.
• 5:14
  Mm-mm.
• 5:15
  but the women that are arrested with him for the murders, so Susan, Patricia, and Leslie, are, like, still so loyal to him throughout this whole freaking thing.
• 5:25
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:27
  Oh, my gosh.
• 5:28
  Yeah.
• 5:28
  So Manson finally gets what he's always wanted.
• 5:31
  He's gotten the fame.
• 5:32
  Yeah.
• 5:32
  They're out there singing his songs and, chanting his...
• 5:34
  Like, he's like, I made it." Yeah.
• 5:36
  It's like,"Hey, look, Mommy." Yeah.
• 5:39
  He thinks, he thinks that this is where he's meant to be, that this is what he's been working for his entire life.
• 5:44
  Yeah.
• 5:45
  The women are dressed the same, smiling and laughing, and showing unbelievable loyalty to him this whole entire time.
• 5:52
  Ugh.
• 5:53
  So,, the prosecution runs into their problem, is that he actually didn't murder anybody.
• 5:57
  Right.
• 5:58
  So they need to figure out a way to prosecute him- Mm-hmm for these murders.
• 6:03
  Tex Wilson did most of the physical killing.
• 6:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:06
  And Manson wasn't inside the house when the actual murders occurred.
• 6:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:10
  Even though he subdued them, he didn't actually witness or wasn't there for any of it.
• 6:16
  Yeah.
• 6:16
  Sneaky little guy.
• 6:18
  So the prosecutor, Vincent Bugliosi- Sounds really close I'm bad at names, has to prove Manson controlled all of these people s- so completely that ordering the murders made him legally responsible.
• 6:29
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:30
  And that's where the prosecutors build the famous case.
• 6:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:34
  The Helter Skelter theory.
• 6:35
  Yeah.
• 6:36
  Which, you know, now- Manson's like,"Yes, even more." Finally.
• 6:41
  The prosecutor's argument with the Helter Skelter theory, Manson believes The Beatles were predicting the apocalyptic race war and ordered these murders to help trigger it.
• 6:50
  So now, like, like, this is so cuckoo bird.
• 6:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:54
  Yeah.
• 6:55
  Yep.
• 6:56
  How is this even, like, real life?
• 6:59
  And this is probably the biggest part of, this whole third episode is what is Helter Skelter?
• 7:05
  Like, they're questioning it.
• 7:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 7:08
  The former, um, family members interviewed in the documentary basically say that, yes, Charlie talked about Helter Skelter, but they don't believe that was the real reason for the murders.
• 7:19
  Catherine Share says the killings were connected to trying to get Bobby Beausoleil out of jail.
• 7:25
  So it's had nothing to do with the Helter Skelter.
• 7:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 7:26
  It had nothing to do with The Beatles.
• 7:27
  It had nothing to do with anything- Mm-hmm other than getting Dude out of jail so he didn't tell on Charlie.
• 7:32
  So he didn't start blabbing, yep.
• 7:34
  Others point to Manson deliberately sending everyone to Terry Melcher's former house, suggesting his rage over the failed music career mattered, too, which it did.
• 7:42
  Yeah.
• 7:42
  I mean, that was the location.
• 7:43
  Yeah.
• 7:44
  Maybe he was gonna send them somewhere.
• 7:45
  Right.
• 7:46
  But that specific address had meaning.
• 7:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 7:51
  Yeah.
• 7:51
  Yeah.
• 7:52
  So, Buglowski's Helter Skelter theory made a great courtroom narrative, but reality was way, way messier.
• 7:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:00
  It was crazy.
• 8:00
  What I couldn't get over was the way that the women acted the whole time.
• 8:04
  Yes.
• 8:05
  They were just still representing the loyalty and everything towards him.
• 8:10
  Oh, and people outside even did the X in their head.
• 8:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:13
  Like, the family members that were outside.
• 8:15
  And Manson's still trying to do the control thing.
• 8:18
  He's still trying to, I mean, obviously sway everybody and manipulate everybody, but he's still doing his thing.
• 8:25
  A- and that actually helps the prosecution.
• 8:27
  It does.
• 8:28
  It does.
• 8:29
  It did not work the way he wanted it to.
• 8:30
  No.
• 8:32
  With all that said, he's showing he's controlling people.
• 8:36
  Uh-huh.
• 8:36
  Like, he is laying it out there.
• 8:38
  Yeah.
• 8:38
  He's like,"This is what I've been doing all along, guys." And the women, Abracadabra.
• 8:42
  Right.
• 8:44
  And, and the women are protecting him, and they're trying to say that it was us, and he's still controlling them and mind games and all of that.
• 8:51
  And yeah, prosecution's like,"Ha, ha.
• 8:54
  See this?" Exhibit A.
• 8:56
  Right.
• 8:57
  Right.
• 8:59
  Buglowski's entire case is built on Charles Manson controls these women, and he or made them do it.
• 9:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:04
  And the whole trial, like you said, he's controlling the women.
• 9:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:07
  They meet with Charlie before court.
• 9:09
  They repeat what he says.
• 9:10
  They mimic him.
• 9:12
  Susan Atkins was originally supposed to testify for the prosecution, but Manson tells her not to, and she recants.
• 9:17
  How did he even have communication- I guess it's them right.
• 9:20
  I don't know.
• 9:21
  Things must have been different back then.
• 9:22
  I don't- I guess.
• 9:23
  I guess.
• 9:23
  But he treats it just like a whole performance.
• 9:26
  Yeah.
• 9:27
  It's a whole stage.
• 9:29
  He even, rushes the judge at one point.
• 9:32
  Everything, he does is intentional.
• 9:34
  Yeah.
• 9:35
  So once Susan backs out, prosecutors needed somebody, so Linda Kasabian- Mm-hmm enters as, Mm-hmm the witness.
• 9:43
  And she's the one who was the lookout.
• 9:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:45
  She had the license.
• 9:46
  She had the license.
• 9:48
  She went to the Tate's house and was present during all the events- Mm-hmm because she had the license.
• 9:53
  She agrees to testify in exchange for immunity.
• 9:55
  Good for you.
• 9:56
  I mean, not good for you'cause you suck, but good for you- Yeah because you actually didn't do any of it, She gives the jury an eyewitness account of what happened, including the killings and Manson's control over everybody.
• 10:07
  Her testimony becomes the backbone of the case, I think she probably is a better witness anyway than, Susan Susan.
• 10:13
  Yeah.
• 10:13
  all right, so this is where the lunging happens.
• 10:15
  You wanna tell this part?
• 10:15
  No.
• 10:16
  Oh.
• 10:16
  I want...
• 10:16
  I like it when you tell stories, and I get to listen and just like Did that happen?
• 10:21
  Yeah.
• 10:23
  Okay, so, during the trial, Manson demands to question a witness.
• 10:27
  And like, who are you?
• 10:28
  Who are you?
• 10:29
  Because that wasn't done then.
• 10:31
  No.
• 10:31
  It was still pretty much done the same way it is now.
• 10:33
  You don't get to do that when you're on trial.
• 10:34
  No.
• 10:35
  Judge Charles Older says absolutely not.
• 10:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:39
  And so Charlie reportedly lunges himself towards the judge with a pencil, threatening him before a bailiff tackles him.
• 10:46
  And who gave him a pencil?
• 10:48
  Well, don't they have, like, a notepad and pencils right on their desk?
• 10:50
  Yeah, but- But, like, why isn't he shackled?
• 10:52
  that or chalk.
• 10:54
  Just, like, a big fat, not even the skinny things of chalk, the big sidewalk chalk.
• 10:57
  Give him that.
• 10:58
  Big chalk bar.
• 11:01
  Yeah.
• 11:01
  He's drawing, like- stick figures.
• 11:03
  Flowers.
• 11:04
  Cause he was the gardener.
• 11:06
  He was the gardener.
• 11:07
  And he took care of the flower children.
• 11:08
  Oh my God.
• 11:08
  Bleh.
• 11:10
  Okay, so after the lunge, the judge becomes concerned enough that he reportedly carries a gun under his robe.
• 11:17
  I don't think- Meanwhile- but crazy.
• 11:19
  Yeah.
• 11:20
  Oh my gosh, can you imagine if he opened fire in court?
• 11:22
  Yeah.
• 11:22
  Oh.
• 11:26
  Bananas.
• 11:27
  Yeah.
• 11:28
  Meanwhile, family members are also threatening prosecutors and journalists outside of court.
• 11:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:33
  'Cause, you know, why wouldn't they?
• 11:34
  Right.
• 11:36
  Charlie's not guilty.
• 11:37
  Right.
• 11:39
  Yeah, I mean, I don't blame the judge.
• 11:40
  No, I don't either.
• 11:41
  I'm just, it's just cra- I mean, and they didn't have metal detectors, but it's just crazy to me that there was- No.
• 11:46
  I, I guess they're like,"Well, you know what?
• 11:47
  You're right." Mm-hmm.
• 11:48
  "You bring it on in.
• 11:48
  I'll keep mine, you keep yours.
• 11:50
  We'll, we'll make sure everybody's safe." Crazy.
• 11:52
  One, two, three, draw.
• 11:53
  Crazy.
• 11:54
  We'll draw at the other end.
• 11:56
  Yeah.
• 11:56
  Our pencil.
• 11:57
  Or chalk.
• 12:01
  So now I would think that he would be trying to intimidate the jury.
• 12:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:06
  Like- Do the mind games with them.
• 12:08
  Yeah.
• 12:08
  But he didn't.
• 12:09
  Mm-mm.
• 12:10
  Well, that, not that was reported anyway.
• 12:11
  Right.
• 12:12
  So after 42 and a half hours of deliberation- Before they come back with the verdict, Richard Nixon had already deemed him guilty.
• 12:18
  Yeah.
• 12:19
  Which I thought that was funny.
• 12:20
  He's like,"He's guilty." Doesn't matter what the jury comes back with, he's guilty.
• 12:25
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:25
  So yeah, they deliberate for 42 hours.
• 12:28
  42 and a half.
• 12:29
  My bad.
• 12:30
  Jury duty sucks, too.
• 12:31
  Like, I couldn't imagine.
• 12:32
  Uh-huh.
• 12:32
  You get paid peanuts and, yeah.
• 12:34
  And they unanimously say guilty.
• 12:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:38
  Let's see, Charles, Susan, Patricia, Leslie.
• 12:40
  And Tex is later convicted in a separate trial.
• 12:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:44
  And this is significant because, the prosecutor successfully convicted Manson for murder without proving that Manson personally killed anybody.
• 12:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:53
  And all this, too, while the ladies had also shaved their heads in solidarity with Manson.
• 12:57
  they initially get death penalty.
• 12:59
  Yep.
• 12:59
  Manson, but California later invalidates it, so those sentences are converted and Manson spends the rest of his life in prison.
• 13:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:07
  Manson had spent huge chunks of his life incarcerated prior to this.
• 13:12
  Oh.
• 13:12
  So now, this is it for him.
• 13:13
  Home sweet home.
• 13:15
  He better toughen up.
• 13:17
  Yeah.
• 13:18
  But, you know, he's probably, praised because he's, He's Manson.
• 13:21
  Yeah.
• 13:22
  And well, this is when, too, he turns the X into the swastika.
• 13:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:26
  Because he's trying to find the group to fit in with to give him protection.
• 13:29
  Yeah.
• 13:30
  'Cause we know that's how prison works'cause we watch prison shows.
• 13:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:33
  So he's trying to fit in with, like, white supremacists.
• 13:35
  Right.
• 13:36
  So he does that for protection.
• 13:37
  Yep.
• 13:38
  Yeah.
• 13:38
  Linda was not, prosecuted.
• 13:40
  Yeah.
• 13:40
  She got immunity.
• 13:41
  License Linda.
• 13:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:43
  She got immunity.
• 13:44
  Which I mean, just get him.
• 13:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:47
  And let them have their brain cells back.
• 13:48
  Yeah.
• 13:48
  And hopefully it'll all be okay So, the prosecutor though was like,"You know what?
• 13:53
  This isn't even a worthy, punishment for Manson because he's been there.
• 13:58
  He knows the ropes." Right.
• 13:59
  "And now he's famous." Right.
• 14:01
  Now he's got some clout.
• 14:02
  He's gonna be like king.
• 14:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:03
  Is what the prosecutor's thinking.
• 14:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:04
  Like, this isn't punishment.
• 14:06
  Yep.
• 14:06
  He can just start a new freaking cult in- jail.
• 14:11
  Which is even more terrifying.
• 14:14
  the which is hugely successful.
• 14:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:16
  And becomes, a movie.
• 14:18
  It was funny to see him.
• 14:19
  I don't know why it was so funny to see him in the thing.
• 14:21
  He was just, in the interviews, he was just, he was so connected to that.
• 14:25
  Yeah.
• 14:26
  I don't know why.
• 14:26
  Just seeing him,,'cause he was like the last person that, he wasn't one of the detectives that started the...
• 14:31
  I don't know.
• 14:32
  Yeah.
• 14:33
  It was just powerful to me.
• 14:34
  Manson lived a long time.
• 14:36
  Yeah.
• 14:36
  Ew, he's so creepy, too, with his face.
• 14:38
  Did I say Manson?
• 14:39
  I think you did, but I knew what you meant.
• 14:40
  Manson.
• 14:41
  He lived a long time.
• 14:43
  He just died like nine years ago.
• 14:45
  Yeah.
• 14:46
  I didn't, I don't remember him dying.
• 14:48
  And that wasn't so long ago thank God, he died of natural causes, which- Sure yeah, whatever.
• 14:53
  But 2017.
• 14:54
  Yeah.
• 14:54
  He lived to be however old that would have made him.
• 14:59
  It just freaks me out that he was alive so recently.
• 15:01
  Yeah.
• 15:02
  I don't like him being in the same- Realm?
• 15:05
  Mm-hmm, that Jackson might have been in.
• 15:07
  Not our babies.
• 15:09
  But yeah, he never achieved parole, none of that.
• 15:12
  Mm-mm.
• 15:12
  He did have colon cancer.
• 15:14
  He did have ass cancer.
• 15:15
  That's what he deserves.
• 15:16
  Exactly.
• 15:17
  Oh, he's 83 years old.
• 15:18
  83.
• 15:18
  Yeah.
• 15:19
  Okay.
• 15:19
  so he obviously died in prison.
• 15:21
  He's a failed musician.
• 15:22
  He sucks.
• 15:24
  And that's- He had little man syndrome, so that's it.
• 15:26
  Thanks everybody for listening.
• 15:29
  Yeah.
• 15:29
  Thank God.
• 15:30
  Yeah.
• 15:30
  But that was a long, long doc.
• 15:33
  It was- Chaotic it, yeah.
• 15:36
  And nothing made sense.
• 15:37
  Mm-mm.
• 15:38
  And all of this was just because he was a...
• 15:41
  I mean, we're assuming because he was a pissed off- Little man?
• 15:45
  Yeah.
• 15:46
  But it was all for nothing.
• 15:47
  Yeah.
• 15:48
  There was not, like, a belief that he was, like, I mean, not that I can understand that either, but it's not like he felt like he was doing good in the world or...
• 15:55
  He was just- And it all kicked off because they robbed Lotsapoppa.
• 16:01
  Lotsapoppa.
• 16:02
  Not Lotsapoppa Poor Lotsapoppa.
• 16:05
  Wonder where Lotsapoppa is today?
• 16:07
  My next animal I get, I'm gonna name it Lotsapoppa.
• 16:12
  Okay.
• 16:13
  All right.
• 16:13
  Um, well thank you guys so much for listening.
• 16:15
  Thank you.
• 16:16
  Um, we will be back with our regular podcast next week.
• 16:18
  Yep.
• 16:19
  Please leave us a review.
• 16:20
  We love you.
• 16:20
  Bye.
• 16:20
  Bye