Latest / The TalkBlock Show's Podcast / How To Reset Your Nervous System In 5 Minutes (EFT Tapping Live Demo!) | Francesca Lion

Transcript

How To Reset Your Nervous System In 5 Minutes (EFT Tapping Live Demo!) | Francesca Lion · The TalkBlock Show's Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: What was the question?
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Answer the question, and because we have a tendency to go off on tangents.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's really funny when you speak to another ADHD person, you can just sort of release the shackles of the expectations of normal conversation and go on this long, lovely rambling journey, which most people would find really frustrating.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the goal with any breastwork, if you want to simplify it, is to extend the output.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's what helps.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: And usually when I've got last step, I've got counting point so we get what it's like connecting from the emotion that we have problems.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we can get a nice safe that allows us to experience the problem solution.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we can we can deal with problems from the past in the safe way and we can get the magic way.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: She's a clinical hypnotherapist and therapist.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: She helps people overcome anxiety, burnout, and trauma.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: She works with the subconscious mind, conscious mind, and nerve system.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Frankie, welcome to the show.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Madim.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's lovely to be here with you today.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: I've been looking forward to our chat.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh let's start with your personal journey.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um how did uh anxiety, burnout, and uh late ADHD diagnoses uh lead you to this work?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: What you do now?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I had a long history with um various you know mental health challenges being you know anxiety and depression, I was very much aware of, but I didn't realize that there was more to the story for a very long time.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we you know we first um recognized and started treating anxiety and depression in my teens, and I was on you know, SSRIs and and seeing psychologists on often on, you know, all the way up until I was about 30.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it was that coincided with the pandemic in Melbourne.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you know when it was just me and the spreadsheets at home uh you know, in my corporate job, that's when everything really compounded and I reached the point where I couldn't ignore the issues that I was experiencing.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't suppress and push through anymore.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it was that was really the the point at which I had to admit that I I couldn't logic my way through, I couldn't um, you know, force my way through an emotional problem and I needed to do some deeper work.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I started experimenting with, you know, having realized that the talk therapy just wasn't making a difference, the SSRIs didn't seem to be, you know, really doing what I needed them to do, uh, I started getting a little bit more experimental with the the sorts of modalities that I tried to find something that worked.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I really didn't care what form it took.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't care if it was evidence-based or not.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was just looking for something that made a difference because at that point I was really unable to function, unable to perform my work, unable to sleep except for crash naps throughout the day.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: So what did you do at that time?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one of your I was working in Yeah, I was working in finance in sort of an operations team, you know, very admin heavy.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and lots of putting out fires and uh you know, lots of switching attention between various tasks and needing to make myself available to you know other stakeholders within the business, even when I was deeply immersed in a task, which that sort of switching, I didn't know I was ADHD at the time, but that sort of switching um i is very disruptive for us.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it just wasn't an ideal fit in a lot of ways, because I'm also a very um, you know, connection and purpose-driven person, and I hadn't found the work that really resonated with me and worked best.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you can see both of these sort of avenues, the the pursuit of um, you know, different forms of therapy and modalities to help me, and the realization that, you know, what I what I needed from my work life dovetailing into once I discovered a couple of things that actually moved the needle for me in terms of my therapy, that of course I wanted to share that with people.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and having discovered that I needed a new pathway work-wise, it was a natural transition to train up.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the first couple of things that help that helped me along my journey were hypnotherapy and NLP.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And they're still two of the cornerstones of the work I do today.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I've since gone on to learn, you know, a number of other techniques that I incorporate as well, but those two still form the foundation of what I do.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And a couple of words uh about the ADHD just for our audience.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what what those ADHD stands for and uh what's the what it looks like uh when person habits and what are the challenges.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so attention hyperactive cannot focus on the attention deficit, hyperactive uh disorder is what it stands for.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it can look a little bit different for different people.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's been very well publicized recently that you know, for starters, how it can show up in men and women, girls and boys, can be quite different.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for a very long time um it was overlooked entirely in girls because it's presented so differently, you know, from the stereotype was boys ping pinging off the walls, you know, just the hyperactive tendency.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the truth is that girls can, you know, have elements of the hyperactivity as well, it just shows up a little bit differently.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so you can have either a a type where you're um primarily hyperactive, so that's the you know, the fidgeting, the unable to sit still, you know, fidgeting with things all the time, um, or the inattentive, which is just finding it incredibly difficult to focus on tasks that aren't sort of inherently interesting or you know, a specific interest to the person.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can have a combination type, which is what I am.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a, you know, I'm partly a sort of a moderate intensity on both scales.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I have tendencies of both being unable to hold attention for sustained periods of time on something that I don't find inherently intriguing.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we're very i there's elements of dopamine um in the mix, you know, we we we tend to gravitate towards things that give us a bit of a dopamine charge because we don't, you know, process that chemical in in the same way as as others.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I have I have a bit of both.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, one thing that I'm always upfront about when I'm working with clients or on podcasts is I tend to wiggle around in my chair a lot and it's just just part of the package, and people are generally pretty, you know, pretty okay with that.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that I have to watch in when working with clients, talking to anyone out in the world or on podcasts is what was the question?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Answer the question, and because we have a tendency to go off on tangents.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's really funny when you speak to another ADHD person, you can just sort of release the shackles of the expectations of normal conversation and go on this long, lovely rambling journey, which most people would find really frustrating, but we find it really freeing.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: And as I know you are the creator of this mind-free method, is that true, right?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's basically um a framework that is intended to share the goal of where we're getting to in the therapy.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: So uh how how did your personal this healing journey uh help you to create this mind-free magic?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it was a combination of my own mental health journey and the work that I've since done in practice with clients and noticing patterns and noticing what success looks like regardless of the problem that I'm helping clients with, be it fear of flying, generalized anxiety, insomnia, what have you.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Success tends to um you tend to notice certain things in common in terms of the person's journey and where they end up when you really hit the nail on the head and and get them where they want to be.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the mind-free method, um, essentially I'll I'll break it down into its two components.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine drawing of a line from the top of your head right through the center of your body, you know, down to your feet.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And this vertical line represents the conscious level work that we do.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the talk therapy component, that top of the iceberg working with, you know, which is where most talk talk therapy happens at that level.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Then beneath that you've got the subconscious work that we do, which is mainly through the hypnosis and the NLP pathways like that.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then below that you've got the nervous system, which is, you know, the the way that the the body is connected to the mind, you know, and you can't really separate what I noticed is that you know, talk therapy is working with the tip of the iceberg.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's not all of who we are, it's it's not our whole experience, it's only a fraction of our physiolog physiology and our experience.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So when we work with all three levels, the conscious mind, the subconscious mind, and the nervous system, and give you know time and attention attuned to all of those parts, get them into alignment, that vertical axis, that's the first component.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I work on all three levels.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you imagine a horizontal line moving from left to right, this represents our where we're positioned in time.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And what I mean by that is issues like depression and rumination, they tend to be problems that are oriented in the past, trauma, things like that.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're operating on subconscious patterns that we've learned a very long time ago, typically when we're children, but we can, you know, adopt and and learn patterns later on as well.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: But we're fixated in the past, we're not here and now.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Anxiety-related issues tend to be off in the future.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're catastrophizing, we're imagining situations that have not yet happened.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we're filling those blanks with those that uncertainty with you know what could go wrong.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: So again, our we're oriented off into the future and not filling it with particularly helpful things, and we're worrying instead of planning.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if we bring this into the center, this is what it means to be present.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Present with what's here right now in the body and in this moment.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening right here and what can I do about it?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And moving out of anxiety and into, you know, calming the nervous system, which creates a pathway to get back from that emotional hijacking that we experience in acute anxiety and back into rational thinking.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that nice space in the center between, you know, not hanging out in the past with that cannot be changed, not hanging out in the future that cannot be known or predicted, but being here now with what's right here and integrated in terms of you know having the the conscious mind, the subconscious mind and the body in alignment.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's the goal.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the mind-free method is you know, there's various tools that I that I use to achieve this with people, but it it the goal is getting them into that central point where they're here and now and resourced and able to respond.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you work mostly with subconscious mind or it's equally all all three?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say that the emphasis of my work is the subconscious mind through the through hypnosis and NLP.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because the conscious mind is it it helps us to gain insight into our patterns to bring awareness, but it doesn't necessarily help us to change it.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: For example, if we're afraid of flying, we can know perfectly well that we're actually safer flying at 30,000 feet in the air than we are getting into our car, but it doesn't make us feel any different.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's because the feeling part is run by the subconscious mind.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the subconscious mind doesn't respond to logical facts, it's just not interested.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's primarily its primary objective is is our survival, and it's quite cutthroat about it.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: It takes its job very seriously.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd say, you know, let's say maybe 60% work with the nervous system, probably 30%, sorry, 60% with the conscious mind, but 30% with a nervous system, and the remainder is probably conscious work.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's approximate breakdown I usually use.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: So the subconscious mind really is is the boss, but we we need to give the the person regulation techniques for the physiological experience of anxiety or or whatever it is that they're facing as well.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's really important to help them have tools to get back in charge, especially while they're learning and they're transitioning into this new way of being.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And a little bit about uh hypnotherapy.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very interesting topic.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just a simple question.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can anybody be hypnotized or or it's only people with some certain kind of mindset that can be hypnotized?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, mindset is uh is probably a key word there.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: In principle, anyone can be hypnotized, but it is very much about whether they want to be.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's you know there there are various tools online to assess your hypnotizability.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't buy into those because I I believe that the most important factor is whether they wish to be hypnotized.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: If the person doesn't want to, they won't be.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's it's really it is as simple as that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: So if they if they and and again it it's different depending on whether you're talking about hypnotherapy versus stage hypnosis.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: So the people that run up on stage in you know an entertainment context to be hypnotized, they have one of two objectives.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Either they really want to participate and you know they want to be made to release the shackles and and quack like a duck or do whatever it is that the person will have them do.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: You mean this is for less some kind of a show, like on TV?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: I are you're not familiar with stage hypnosis.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen something like that, but I I could not believe it's true.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it's like staged is just people just playing characters like an actors.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's it it's typically I'm sure that's happened, but it's typically real and the way that it but again, the the critical component is not inherent hypnotizability or particular traits that we could measure on an MRI or anything like that.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's their willingness.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if a person gets up there and really wants to participate, they will participate, they will be hypnotizable, they will respond.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: The person who gets up there determined to prove that they can't be hypnotized, guess what?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: They won't be hypnotized because they they refuse.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and this is um, I guess, good to good to mention in the context of hypnotherapy because some people are a little bit, you know, uh cautious about it when they don't understand how it works and they think of it as mind control.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they think they can be made to do something that they don't want to do.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I I always let people know you you won't take on any suggestions that I offer in hypnosis that you don't want to, that you don't feel are helpful.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: So and if we that that's important to to understand in both context of stage hypnosis and hypnotherapy.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: So hypnotherapy is using hypnosis as a tool to deliver therapy at a deeper level.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you have complete control of what you take on and what you don't, what you find helpful and what you don't.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: So what actually happens during a typical hypnotherapy session?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean i i it's one of those things that i it's going to be a different experience depending on which practitioner you see.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'll talk to how I do it and and I'll Yeah, yeah, I'm asking whether on your session with you, yeah.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I I will typically start off the first session with, you know, going through someone's intake for making sure that they're comfortable or don't have any other questions about hypnosis.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'll get really granular about what happens not just in their mind but in their body in the process of this problem because a lot of people, when they come to me, they've done a ton of talk therapy and they've not really made the connection between what's happening in their physiology, so the somatic side of things.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: I get them to tap into that.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we do interesting things, you know, from NLP where we we try and give the sensations in the body shape and colour and texture, and we see if we can gently maneuver and manipulate them a little bit that way.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: That gets people really curious, and if they can get a little bit of relief working in that way, you know, turning something that's black and sludgy into something that's, you know, smooth and blue or whatever it is, they they come up with the imagery that works for them.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: That gets them really curious and and sort of sets them up for, you know, the the hypnosis, which we always start with an induction of some form.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So like a story, it has a hypnosis session has a beginning, a middle and an end.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Induction is the process of getting someone from their normal everyday conscious state into subconscious.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And subconscious is a little bit like a a daydream state is probably I d you could you can draw parallels with meditation, but it is actually a little bit different.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's more like a daydream state.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: So between waking and sleeping, there's a state called theta, and that's mostly where we're playing.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it allows us to really what we're working with mainly is the imagination, in fact.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the induction allows us to drop into that state of relaxed and focused attention.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a nice receptive state for seeing, you know, perceiving things in a different way and disconnecting from the emotion that we have attached to certain ideas or problems.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we can get a nice safe distance that allows us to experience the problem in a different way and imagine solutions.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we can we can deal with problems from the past in a safe way, and we can get people imagining solutions in the future in a safe way.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that gives people we can teach them skills, we can build resources and we never overload too much in in hypnosis session.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it shouldn't be more than 25 maximum 30 minutes, but somewhere in that range.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And once we've done the main body of work, uh we you know we we gently reorient them back to their normal waking self here and now.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we have a chat about the experience and figure out the next steps.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do any like video recording or it's not not necessary?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Not video.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um I do record the hypnosis component of most sessions.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't tend to do it if I'm doing trauma repr uh processing because that tends to be a one and done.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's not really appropriate to have people listen to that one again and again.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: But most other things where we're it's it's sort of positively orienting and skill building, I'll record the audio and it's just my voice, it's nothing from their end, so that they can listen to that between sessions.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And people sometimes like to revisit it a couple of years into the future if they want to.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was preparing for this episode, I I discovered that uh online hypnotherapy actually exists.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So does online hypnotherapy work just as well as in person or or it's Absolutely.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I primarily work online.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: I almost exclusively work online now with people across Melbourne and Australia.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it really does work exactly the same way because it there's no it's not a form of energy healing.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's no no voodoo.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's just my voice.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: So really all I need is for them to have a comfy chair, a stable internet connection.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Headphones are helpful but not critical.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: They need an an hour to themselves so they can be relaxed and you know, and and have privacy.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if we have those things, it it I find it actually works better in some ways because think about when you're driving to an appointment and you've got to get through the traffic, you've got to make sure you're there on time, you've got to find parking, or you've got to navigate public transport.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: What state are you in when you arrive?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit narrow, this place is new for you.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not as cozy as at home, right?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: So people are often automatically in a much more comfortable state when they when they sit down online with a session than if they're running around town, you know, and and I actually have to spend time in sessions in person helping people drop in and be present before we do anything.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a natural advantage in their in their home turf.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there's if if anyone's sort of s struggled with um, you know, sexual abuse or anything like that, it can be actually triggering having someone in the room with them when they've got their eyes closed.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't have that factor either.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're in their own their own cocoon and it's just just me and my voice.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Also a question, what is your top two for that instant uh calm when feeling over or overwhelming?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: How to easily calm down.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, look, it's an interesting one because I one of one of the reasons I went on a journey to find other tools to help me was because none of the normal stuff worked for me.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't, you know, and I felt like an alien.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I I don't know all these breathwork techniques and the 54321, the body scans, none of it made a dent in my anxiety because it was so acute.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I I have uh had quite a journey experimenting with different things that work, and I've I I I created a process that was really melding two separate processes together.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's my absolute favorite technique.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: I teach it to pretty much every single client, and it's bringing tapping and breathing together.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Have you heard of tapping before?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, no.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: No?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is this EFT tapping?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same, yeah.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: So um emotional freedom technique, also known as tapping.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I know the full EFT tapping process, and I I do use that with some people, but I actually took out all the the words, you know, all the the setup phrases and and that process, kept the tapping points and inserted breath work instead.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I found this particularly helpful for anyone who is neurodivergent, be it ADHD or autistic or both, and also anyone who has a history of trauma, because those two types of people tend to have a higher level of anxiety that is less uh it's less e it's less um easy to navigate.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it it's a bit once it gets its claws in, it really doesn't want to let go.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: It it you know, it so it takes a little bit more.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and I want I I I think it's important to share this with um you know your listeners when they want to get on a podcast, because there's a tendency if you do all the right things in your mental health journey and it's not helping to feel like there's something wrong with me.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it you you can make you can make that meaning without thinking about it.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's part of it can be part of the problem that you run that you tend to turn it inwards on yourself and think, well, if these things that are working for everybody else don't work for me, there must be something wrong with me.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the truth is that you just haven't yet found what you need.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Those tools, those techniques, those modalities have not been sufficient for you.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's not your fault.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to know that there are other things that you can try, and your your mission is to find what does work for you, and you may need to just broaden your horizons, you know, who you're who you're talking to, who you're seeking help from.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um it is a bit of a journey to find the right person and the right modality, but there is more out there than the talk therapy and the SSRIs.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um to get back to your question about what uh what I find extremely helpful, it's a process of tapping through the meridian points on the body and combining that with breathing.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um we could do a demonstration now, or I could give you a link to include in the show notes for your listeners if they're curious to go through that process.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you can, you can you you can show if you if you can.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty curious, yeah.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll probably take um about five minutes, is that okay?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, sure.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you're happy to tap along with me.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you mean I I I'm supposed to tap some oh Yeah.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Are you happy to to come along for the ride?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, didn't expect that.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I said okay.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you don't have to.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: I can demonstrate if you prefer.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would like for our uh for our audience to just see what it looks like.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well I'll demonstrate.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can demonstrate, not a problem.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Alright.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll start with the side of the hand and you can choose any hand.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we call this the karate chop point.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you just find the intensity and the frequency of the taps that feels right for you.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: You do want to feel it, but it doesn't want to be too hard or too soft.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we tap away and we start to bring in the breathing.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I like to do in for a counter four with a soft pause and out for a counter four.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Out through the mouth is best, but whichever works for you.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the goal with any breath work, if you want to simplify it, is to extend the outbreath because that's what helps move our nervous system from activation down into parasympathetic rest and digest.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: But my thing is I think we need to meet the body where it's at.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're really activated, you don't start with breathing out for a count of six, you start with four, then you move to five, then you move to six.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: So the purpose of this demonstration, in for a count of four, soft pause out for a count of four, and we move to the head.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Two hands tapping on the top of the head, finding the intensity and frequency that works for you.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: In for a count of four, soft pause out for a count of five this time.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Moving to the eyebrows.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Take my glasses off.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: So two hands tapping one on each eyebrow in for a count of four.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Soft pause out for a count of five.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Side of the eyes.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: In for a count of four.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Breathing is important to read.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the in for a count of four is breathing.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can't sort of talk and do the breathing at the same time for the demonstration, but the in f the in is in for breathing in for a count of four with a soft pause and then out for a count of six this time.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Under the eyes.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: So one hand tapping under each eye.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: And usually when I'm guiding a client, I'll ask them to take over the counting of the breathing at this point so they get a sense of what it's like to have to focus their attention between these two things, because there's two things going on at once, and that's an important part of the process, because what we're doing is we're giving the brain another task, and we're calming calming the nervous system, which gives our conscious mind a chance, our rational mind to come back online, which is what we really need to be able to respond to the situation, whatever it is that's triggered us, instead of reacting.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: So tapping under the nose and above the lips, in for a counter four, soft pores, out for a count of six, under the chin in a little divot below the lip, again in for a counter four, soft pause, out for a count of six, and just below the collarbones, two hands, tapping a bit in for a count of four, soft pause, out for a count of six, usually doing a couple of breaths per spot.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the final spot on the body is just a hand span down from the armpit, resting the other hand easily in the lap, repeating that breath in for a count of four, soft pause, out for a count of six.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And after one round you can just notice what you notice, see if there's any marked difference on a scale of one to ten from where you were before to where you are now.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you can do a couple of rounds.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: It only takes a few minutes.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the other nifty thing that you can do, because obviously that full body process isn't something you want to do in a meeting room or a gate lounge at the airport, but you've got fingers too.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you can tap or just sort of gently press and pinch the thumb and do a round of breathing there, then the index finger, do a round of breathing there, middle finger, round of breathing there, fourth finger, round of breathing there, pinky round of breathing there, do that a couple of times, and you can do that you do that with your hands in your lap under a table on the table, no one's really going to notice that you know you're just sort of fiddling with your fingers, and we've got to breathe anyway.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a my clients love that one because they can do it out and about without having to run off to the bathroom or a meeting room to do it.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's one of my favourite nervous system calming techniques because there's there is a lot going on, and the reason for that is it involves distraction, involves a little bit of confusion, and it's it it acts as a pattern interrupt.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it just it stops us from doing what we're doing, which is running that pattern of anxiety while calming the nervous system, which gives us a chance to come online and then start using those, you know, CBT tools and things.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I I'm of the belief that we don't have a hope of using those wonderful CBD tools until we've calmed our system down.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for demonstration and uh yeah, such a compreh comprehensive explanation.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh next question.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you work with the subconscious mind, conscious mind, and nervous system.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh why is it uh essential to address all three parts together uh for lasting change?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as I mentioned before, the talk therapy really only works with the conscious mind.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Nervous system works only with the body.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm a bigger fan of anything that works from a subconscious level down, but I do believe that our whole experience is multifactorial.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're not made up of one single thing.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're not a car with parts, we're an integrated whole.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the science is reflecting this, you know, the the importance of the mind-body connection and how interlinked all of our, you know, our our systems are.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if we're wanting to make lasting change, it's important to acknowledge and attend to every aspect of the person's experience.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, what's going on with the conscious thoughts and what those patterns are, what's happening at the subconscious level with those automatic learned responses and the and the emotions that are connected to the different experiences we're having.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And at the physiological level, you know, people I I ask people to trace the origin of a particular emotion that's you know in play in a problem area, and we find that we're able to trace it to a particular location, like there's there's tension in the throat.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: The first physiological thing they notice is it's like there's a lump in my throat and I can't can't talk around it.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first thing I notice, or there's like a a fist in my chest, there's a tightness in my chest, or there's this swooping, whooshing sensation in my belly.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's you know, nervous system stuff, and they're they're pathways to link us to where these experiences came from, and they're also you know pathways to calming that experience.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we need to attend to the whole.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And how how does our our brain protect us from past pain through safety behaviors?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe from like childhood trauma, etc.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there's a few incredibly clever ways that it does that.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: So the brain has a few different options, the brain and body.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: We have the ability to dissociate.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if we're unable to fight or flee, and children, you know, often aren't, let's say that the home environment is not calm and supportive or always predictable, they don't have an unless they're going to run away from home, which isn't a permanent solution anyway, they can't escape that.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: They can't change that, they can't fight that.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: So one thing that their brain might do is to dissociate or numb their experiences from it.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: So they'll go from a high state of activation to dissociation, to shut down where they feel less, they're connected to it less, and therefore they suffer less in a sense.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it it's not it's a it's the only strategy available at the time, but it's not a helpful long-term strategy.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one thing that the brain can do.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing it can do is induce amnesia.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we forget altogether that a particular event happened.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, interestingly, um inducing amnesia is a technique that we can suggest in hypnosis.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: We can suggest that someone you know forget a past event because it doesn't serve them to remain connected to it.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: You mean you can erase it during hypnosis session?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Erase erase is a strong word.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um but if you probably you know, it we we're not a computer with you know files that we can d delete as such.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, and I would do other work around this.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't usually use amnesia in isolation, um, but it is a technique that helps to we're always aiming to remove the emotion from a memory.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's always the goal.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: That if you remove that emotionality, they're able to, you know, re recall the event, but without that same charge that it used to have, and it doesn't have that same hold over us, it doesn't trigger those implicit, you know, feeling memories in the body anymore.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, we can suggest that the person let that be in the past and no longer be able to recall it.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a technique I use a a great deal, but it is in the toolkit.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um what other options do we have?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: We we can learn whatever whatever our subconscious mind figures out helps us at the time, it will then dial in as a solution to anything that remotely resembles that pattern in the future.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: This comes up a lot with attachment-related stuff.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if we uh let me think of an example.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: When we grow up with a dysregulated parent, for example, and we we learn to tread on eggshells because we don't know what mood they're gonna be in or what's going to, you know, are they gonna if I do this, are they gonna, you know, respond with joy and attunement, or are they gonna, you know, tell me to shut up and be quiet?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: That uncertainty leads to us treading on eggshells and being hyper-vigilant.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that becomes a passion that we typically will take forward into adulthood, and we're not going to recognize when we don't need to do that because other people in our lives are better regulated, be it a boss or a partner or anybody else.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's one example, you know, just taking it's quite it's a little bit simplistic in the way that it pattern matches when something, you know, that reminds us of this past situation, we're unable to at a subconscious level determine when that's no longer required.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: But we take that pattern into the future.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, hypnosis is one way of unlearning those strategies that no longer serve us.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Those are those are main ones.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And let's let's also talk about curiosity and compassion.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: How can using curiosity and self-compassion help us uh break those old habit loops?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: So those are two of my favorite words, and I use them a lot in my sessions because when we are able to really embody a state of curiosity, we're very much bringing our rational mind into the mix.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Where and it it helps us to remove the emotional, the emotionality from what we're thinking about.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: So when we step into curiosity, we almost naturally it become also becomes much easier to be compassionate towards ourselves because we're being more objective, we can be more playful, we can be more experimental.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: And these are these are traits that we really need to embody to figure out what works better for us with guidance.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: And with compassion, it's it's pretty straightforward.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: No one ever hated themselves into healing.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, it it can be hard to do, especially if we're coming from a background of low self-esteem or um you know, childhood trauma or things like that.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: We we can have these ingrained patterns of blaming ourselves or you know, really not feeling kindly towards ourselves.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: But once we can step into curiosity and self-compassion, the road to noticing and responding differently opens up and becomes much smoother because uh we're able to take one moment at a time instead of going, well, I couldn't do that, so that means I'm worthless.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: We can't go anywhere from there.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: So and uh I I have a question, this curiosity, what it looks like.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that that person's supposed to s start some hobby, or like what's what is it gonna look like or for a different person it looks different.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody reading a book, somebody goes to the zoo, or like I don't know, what's the any examples?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you're referring more to, I guess, invitations to focus on other things, external experiences, which which can be a really helpful part of any therapy is you know, rem reminding ourselves that there is a big wide world of experiences and and knowledge out there to be gained and ways of participating and connecting and being in nature.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's super important, and it can be about that.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: But uh what I'm usually talking about with clients when I encourage them to step into curiosity is moving out of reactivity to their own internal experience and being curious about it instead.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of, oh no, I'm panicking and I'm panicking about panicking, which is fear of fear, which is a self-perpetuating cycle that's going to send you down a spiral, it's oh, I'm noticing a bit of activation.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I've just noticed my breathing's, you know, hitching and my stomach's clenching.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's interesting.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's the oh that's interesting, instead of, you know, being it it's it's also an example of detaching the emotionality from it.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: But without it's not an indifference, it's just being open to experiencing this in a different way, being curious about it and and how we can respond differently to what's happening both internally and externally.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, oh yeah, totally.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh self-compassion, it's um because probably not not all the people can concentrate and uh I don't know, in that moment.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, to do that self-compassion toward yourself, like how to any any any techniques to like click it in in the moment?
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this I mean this is a core part of the work that we do in hypnosis, to be honest with you.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it is a practice to build it.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the and you can you can there are different ways of achieving this.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Another pathway that people take is through you know practices like meditation and mindfulness, where you really are centering yourself on the present moment, on what's here right now.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: And there's this interesting thing that happens with your perception of time when you play with mindfulness or you play with you know states of hypnosis where your experience of time changes drastically.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: So you know how good times seem to go really fast and bad times seem to go really slow.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a there's a different experience if you're, you know, if you're wanting to, you know, get as many questions done in an exam, the time seems to fly and there's never enough time.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: We have, but in reality, the clock is ticking at the same rate, but our experience of time varies wildly depending on what's happening, how how engaged we are, interested, how invested we are in it, how much anxiety we're running, or how calm we are.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the goal is to become so aware and grounded and present in this moment right now, in every moment moving forward, that moment expands.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And in that moment, you have this dual awareness of what's happening internally and externally.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Also being aware of your own resources and what you can do in that moment.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's a weird thing where when you manage to do it, there's just this higher, wiser voice or awareness within you that that's able to be with what's happening, but distanced enough that you have choice and you you are able to call on what's most helpful in that moment.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it is a practice, it comes with time.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: It might sound a bit woo, but when you experience it, it's quite extraordinary.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and um uh one ask last question for today with so many uh therapy options nowadays, uh therapy techniques and therapists, how can someone uh choose the right path for themselves?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a to look at a great question.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um I would say, you know, use the digital tools that are available to us now as a starting point and think about what you've already done.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if you've already done multiple rounds of talk therapy and you're still, you know, you haven't noticed significant improvement, you know, if you you might have gained some insights.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is what clients usually tell me.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was helpful for gaining insights, but it hasn't changed how I'm responding.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: I still have the fear, I still have the habit, the behavior, whatever it is.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably a good sign that it is, you know, would be helpful to look further afield.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: As you say, there's 400 types of psychotherapy alone, let alone the other modalities, there's different types of hypnotherapy.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would I I am a big fan of anything that works with the subconscious mind and the nervous system as a as a high level.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um that said, I prefer things that are evidence-based.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good thing to look out for.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um finding people who are experienced and preferably have access to different modalities.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: Somatic experiencing is lovely too because it helps to you know, this is nervous system work that helps you to sort of connect in with the experience of the body.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of us are walking around very much in our heads and we really need to reintegrate with our with our bodily experience and be at ease with that, be at peace with that.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, and and when you when you're looking at the different options, it's easy to be overwhelmed.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: So use use the digital tools that are available to help you maybe make a short list and find some practitioners nearby that might be of service.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: I would I would put a preference on things that have that are you know a basis of evidence behind them.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: And do leverage those 15-minute or 20-minute free chats.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of therapists do offer a free initial um 15 or 20-minute chat.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Including you I do, yes.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um so some people call it a discovery call or you know, intake call, what have you.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but do do speak to these people and because one very important pillar of any therapy, regardless of the modality, is the rapport.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: You need to get a sense that this person is interested in me, they're listening to me, they understand about the problem, they're asking the right questions, they have the right experience, and I feel it's really about the bodily experience.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: I feel safe and I can trust this person and we can go on this journey together.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: So do listen to your your gut and your body, not just your mind when you're choosing someone to work with.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't yeah, if you don't get it right right away, don't be afraid to, you know, pull it out and go elsewhere if it just isn't the right fit at the right time or the the right personal modality.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um it is a bit of a numbers game, but you you will become better at sussing what works best for you.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: And timing is important as well, you know, when you do these things.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: The the work that I'm doing for myself personally, you know, in processing past trauma, I wasn't ready to do it in my twenties.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: I just wasn't.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I would sort of come near it and then scuttle back, and you know, come near it and then scuttle back.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: And i it's it's just uh you can't force yourself into doing something you're not ready to do.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, but that doesn't mean you can't do anything to help yourself either.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: So just be be where you're at, give yourself permission to be where you are.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, right.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Frankie, for sharing your wisdom today.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: And guys, if you want to learn more, visit mindfreetherapy.com.au.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can book a free 15-minute consultation there.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you for watching and see you next time.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: Bye bye.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Ben.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: Bye bye.