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Doug Powe on Sustaining while Disrupting · Future Christian

0:05
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:08
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:11
church into the 21st century.
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At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
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advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
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community of faith walk boldly into the future.
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Now here's your host, Lauren Richmond, Junior.
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>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast.
0:35
Today we're welcoming Frederick Douglas Poe
0:38
Junior. Doug is the director of the Lewis center for
0:41
Church Leadership and the James C. Logan professor of
0:44
evangelism at Wesley Theological Seminary.
0:47
Doctor Poe is an ordained elder in the Baltimore
0:50
Washington annual conference of the United Methodist
0:53
Church. His newest co authored book,
0:56
sustaining while disrupting the challenge of
0:58
Congregational Innovation, was the number one
1:01
newly released church leadership and administration
1:04
book. Another recent book is
1:06
the adept navigating between a rock and a
1:09
hard place. Doctor Poe is also known
1:12
for his work in wesleyan evangelism with
1:15
titles like Transforming community,
1:18
the Wesleyan Way to missional congregations, and
1:20
transforming evangelism, the wesleyan way of
1:23
sharing Faith, both co authored with H. Henry
1:26
Knight III. Doctor Poe is a
1:29
forerunner in african american evangelism. A few
1:32
of his contributions include not safe for
1:35
church, the ten Commandments for reaching new
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generations, co authored with Reverend
1:40
Jasmine Smothers and New Wine, New
1:43
Wineskins, how african american
1:45
congregations can reach new generations.
1:48
He holds a PhD in systematic theology from
1:51
Emory University, a master of divinity from Candler
1:54
School of Theology, and a bachelor of arts from Ohio
1:57
Wesleyan University. Let's welcome
2:00
Doug to the show.
2:08
>> Loren: Uh, all right. Welcome to the Future
2:11
Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond, junior,
2:13
and today I'm pleased to be joined by Doug Poe. Doug,
2:16
thanks for, thanks for being here.
2:18
>> Doug: I'm happy to be here. Looking forward to it.
2:21
>> Loren: Yeah, glad to have this conversation. So
2:24
Doug's, uh, been on the conversation, excuse me. We've
2:27
had conversations before in the podcast, uh, but share
2:29
with our listeners just kind of about yourself,
2:32
um, your faith story, and, um, that
2:35
information for us again?
2:37
>> Speaker D: Absolutely. I am an
2:39
ordained elder in the United Methodist church.
2:43
I, um, have been in the
2:46
church all my life. I grew up not
2:49
in the United Methodist church, but grew up actually
2:53
in, um, the church of God, um, Indiana,
2:56
and have, um, gone to all
2:58
Methodist schools. Um, so that sort of was my
3:01
introduction, um, through a chaplain at
3:04
my alma mater, Ohio western university, to
3:06
methodism. But
3:10
really, um, um, sort of like
3:12
Timothy sort, um, of have grown up
3:15
in the church. So have that faith walk more
3:18
than the, uh, sort of
3:20
dramatic conversion, um, into the
3:23
faith, but certainly, um,
3:26
have experienced, um,
3:29
a transformation of, um,
3:32
different mentors, uh, throughout my life and
3:35
pastors who have been critically important.
3:38
Um, and of course at a point in time
3:41
felt called myself to go into
3:43
ministry and also to get my
3:45
PhD so that I could teach and hopefully form
3:48
others. Well, um, I'm currently
3:51
at Wesley Theological Seminary and the director of the Lewis
3:54
Center. I love my work, um,
3:57
particularly the work of formation. So,
4:00
um, I look at writing as we'll talk about
4:03
the book later as a part of that formation where
4:06
I'm hoping to be in conversation
4:09
with pastors and their congregations and the work
4:12
they're doing to make a difference in the world.
4:14
>> Loren: Great. I got to ask, Church of God
4:17
Anderson, Indiana, right?
4:18
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
4:19
>> Loren: Okay, so when did you find yourself in the
4:22
Methodist world then?
4:23
>> Speaker D: From there it
4:26
started when I was at Ohio Wesleyan, um,
4:29
but then officially, really when
4:32
I went to college, I mean, when I went
4:34
to, um, seminary is when
4:37
I officially became a part of the Methodist
4:40
church in Atlanta, Georgia, when I was at
4:42
Candler.
4:44
>> Loren: Share, if you would, just a little bit about. I'm not super familiar
4:47
with the church of God, Anderson, Indiana.
4:50
Uh, can you for me,
4:53
maybe for our listeners too, but for me, share just a little bit about
4:56
that tradition?
4:57
>> Speaker D: Sure. Um, it actually comes out of
5:00
sort of, ah,
5:03
a western tradition on the pentecostal
5:05
side.
5:06
>> Loren: Okay.
5:06
>> Speaker D: Um, um, or you could
5:09
say the holiness tradition. And it
5:12
is, um, a denomination
5:14
that, um, is
5:16
smaller. Um, I
5:19
attended, um, my aunt and uncle who had
5:22
both passed, uh, where I grew up,
5:25
um, that was their home church,
5:27
and would, um, often go with them when I was
5:30
young to, um, the church with
5:33
them. My mom, um, would take my
5:36
brother and I, we would go to church with them. And
5:39
then, uh, when I graduated, I
5:42
would still often go
5:44
to what was in my cousin's church,
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um, that was, um, in the tradition.
5:49
So, um, it's a
5:52
denomination that is
5:55
mixed, but, um, sort of
5:58
has the strong holiness roots,
6:01
um, but really
6:05
comes, um, out of that tradition of, um,
6:08
strongly believing that, um,
6:11
you can be transformed and, uh,
6:14
hopefully live a life that is going to make a
6:17
difference in the world today.
6:19
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Um, what are some
6:22
spiritual practices or spiritual disciplines that are
6:25
meaningful for you?
6:28
>> Speaker D: Probably I'm a little bit unusual. Um,
6:31
one of them is holy conversations. Um, so this
6:34
comes out of Wesley. Wesley, uh, one of his works of
6:37
piety is holy conversations.
6:40
And, um, I
6:43
enjoy just those sort of conversations
6:45
with, uh, individuals like you or just sitting down and having coffee,
6:48
uh, with, uh, individuals.
6:51
Uh, the other, I think that for me
6:54
is important is, um, like many
6:57
people, prayer. So that, um,
7:00
just time to have the
7:03
conversation with God and, um, make
7:06
that connection, uh, where you can sort
7:09
of, uh, commune. So those would probably be the
7:12
two most significant practices for me.
7:16
>> Loren: I thank you for sharing that, and I hope this is a
7:19
meaningful conversation. I, uh, know
7:22
in many of the same ways. I think, uh, these type of conversations
7:25
are, for me, very fulfilling and meaningful.
7:28
So I appreciate, again, taking the time out
7:31
to have this conversation. So for our
7:34
listeners. Uh, Doug is the co author of a
7:37
book, sustaining while the
7:40
challenge of congregational innovation.
7:43
And I'd highly
7:46
recommend this book. It's available from fortress Press. I,
7:48
uh, was fortunate to come across it recently
7:52
and really enjoy the read. So wanted to have Doug
7:55
on again to have, uh, the conversation about this book.
7:58
So I know you co wrote this
8:00
with, um, another author, if you wanted to
8:03
share about him, and then kind of how you two kind of came together
8:06
to approach the book, I'm especially curious
8:09
about the title. So anything you want to share about the title, uh, I'd
8:12
appreciate.
8:13
>> Speaker D: Sure. Let me start by sharing about Lovett
8:16
Weems. Lovett Weems is actually the founding
8:19
director of the Lewis center, um,
8:22
well known figure, particularly within the Methodist
8:25
church. Um, very fortunate that he
8:28
was willing to co author this book with
8:30
me. Um, but
8:33
Lovett, um, has probably forgotten more than most
8:36
of us will ever learn about leadership. So,
8:39
um, exciting to be able to work with him on this
8:42
project. The title comes,
8:45
um, Clayton Christensen, um, Harvard
8:48
business, um, school,
8:50
um, wrote a book called Innovator's
8:53
dilemma. Um, and a part of his work was
8:56
talking about sustaining,
8:59
um, and
9:01
disruption in the business world.
9:04
Unfortunately, he's passed away, but,
9:07
um, we're really playing off
9:10
of his work and
9:12
talking about, um, that sort of
9:15
sustaining, um, interruption and, um,
9:18
disruptive innovation in terms
9:21
of thinking about how it fits within
9:24
the church world. Of course, it's a little bit
9:27
different in the church world than the business world. And that in
9:30
the church world, you really have
9:33
to sustain, um,
9:36
traditions in some ways that you do not
9:39
have to do so within the business world.
9:42
So you can't just come completely
9:44
follow the, uh, blueprint that was laid out by
9:47
Christensen. But certainly the
9:50
title is influenced by, um, his work and
9:53
his thinking as it relates to sustaining and
9:55
disruptive innovation.
9:57
>> Loren: Yeah, it seems like such a paradoxical, perhaps
10:00
even an impossible task that I think that's
10:03
if that alone would drew me to it.
10:06
Uh, so I want to dive right in here to talking
10:09
about, um, you have a chapter
10:12
early on on innovating, and you
10:15
draw three clues about innovation
10:17
from acts.
10:20
So share those three clues and
10:22
then I wanted to jump in a little bit more, but
10:25
start off with those.
10:27
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So, in acts. So three
10:29
clues that, um, we talk about
10:32
is, one, you have to sort of think like an
10:35
outsider.
10:37
Um,
10:40
it's really challenging to
10:42
innovate from the inside.
10:46
If, um, you think about the book of acts and you think about the
10:49
story of Peter and Cornelius.
10:51
Um, Peter has the
10:54
dream, but he doesn't fully
10:57
buy into the dream, right, because the dream is really
11:00
so far outside of the realm of what he has
11:02
known as a, um,
11:05
believer in jewish culture. So
11:08
it's not until Cornelius actually sends
11:11
for him, an outsider,
11:14
that he starts putting the pieces together.
11:16
So part of what we're saying
11:19
is that you really have to think like an
11:22
outsider, that when you're an insider, what we
11:25
tend to do, and this is all of us, we fall into the trap
11:28
of discontinuing sort of what we've been doing
11:31
and the practices that we've been doing. So
11:34
that's the first thing. The second thing we talk
11:37
about is, you got to take risk, you know? Uh,
11:40
and again, this sounds really simple
11:43
and straightforward, but the
11:45
easy thing to do is to play it safe. Peter could
11:48
have said, you know what? I'm good.
11:51
I'm not going to go with you all, because, listen,
11:54
you know, I'm just going to stay right here because
11:57
I think this is the safest thing for me to do. But
12:00
you've got to be willing to get outside of your comfort
12:02
zone and take risk.
12:05
Um, and that's hard to do
12:08
because none of us like failure.
12:11
But the reality is, if you don't take risk,
12:15
then on the other side of it, then you're losing
12:17
opportunities where you could really have a great
12:20
impact, um, for transformation.
12:24
And probably the last one, and I've said
12:26
they all are hard, but this is possibly the hardest,
12:29
is putting aside convictions. You
12:32
know, it is tough
12:35
when I've looked at something,
12:39
particularly for a long period of time, in a particular
12:41
way, to set that aside to see the world
12:44
differently. I mean, the easy one within the church, and it's
12:47
still true for some
12:49
denominations, um, in the church is
12:52
women in ministry. You know,
12:55
we take it for granted now in the United Methodist church, but there was a
12:58
day in time when that was not the case
13:01
where, um.
13:02
>> Loren: And the SBC is dealing with this right now. Right.
13:05
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So putting aside
13:07
convictions can be really challenging,
13:10
but those three things
13:13
we think are really critical and.
13:16
And helping to innovate, and if you
13:19
are able to do those things, it can really
13:22
help with the process for moving forward with
13:25
innovation. But as I said, I mean,
13:28
all three of them together are extremely difficult.
13:31
Any single one of them is actually a
13:34
challenge to do.
13:35
>> Loren: So I have a whole bunch of questions lined up. But Doug, we may not get
13:39
beyond these three points just because there's so
13:41
much meet here to
13:44
unpack and talk through. So first, like
13:47
thinking like an outsider. And Doug, I don't know about
13:50
you, but as someone who's well
13:52
situated within mainline church yet myself,
13:55
sort of an outsider, as I hate the
13:58
word new, uh, but not being a lifelong
14:01
mainliner, I think there's
14:04
this, from my perspective at least, there's this
14:07
real, real, like,
14:09
um,
14:11
unfamiliarity and almost like aversion to
14:14
anything that's outside.
14:18
Um. How do you counsel
14:21
churches or leaders, um,
14:24
to get over that
14:27
hump or barrier?
14:30
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I think a couple of different things
14:33
are important. First, um,
14:35
is, um, this acts text is wonderful.
14:38
Like really read this text
14:41
and just meditate on this text.
14:44
So I want to say that
14:47
up front, but as we think
14:49
about the narrative of
14:52
Christianity and we think about
14:55
that as much as
14:59
we have these wonderful
15:01
traditions that are critically important,
15:05
that things still have continued to
15:08
change. And one of the things that
15:11
we don't think about, Paul
15:14
wrote the majority of the New Testament
15:17
and probably was the greatest church
15:20
planner of all time.
15:21
>> Loren: Mhm.
15:22
>> Speaker D: Not a single one of his churches are still around
15:25
today.
15:25
>> Loren: Yeah.
15:26
>> Speaker D: Right. So that things are going
15:29
to continue to shift
15:33
and change because
15:37
people who are outsiders,
15:40
who are interested in
15:43
Christianity aren't going to do it exactly like
15:46
those of us who are inside the church doing it. They're going
15:49
to take the core of the gospel message, they're going
15:52
to live it out faithfully, but they're going to do so in a
15:54
way that we probably are not living
15:57
it out. So what I would
16:00
say to people is if we
16:03
could learn to hear,
16:06
um, their narratives and how
16:09
they are looking to
16:12
basically engage
16:15
and journey with them in that
16:17
engagement. So it's not that, you
16:20
know, just to use an example, somebody
16:23
who wants to start
16:26
a, um,
16:28
yoga sort of ministry
16:31
and that becomes the way they want to worship. While
16:34
it may not fit into how we
16:37
would normally do things, it doesn't mean that
16:40
what they're trying to do is wrong. Right.
16:43
That is just different for how they're going
16:45
to live it out. So I think
16:49
being able to journey with those individuals
16:52
can help us to think like an outsider and maybe
16:54
better, um, engage the
16:57
faith in a way that we would not do. So
17:01
now, going to your point, that is
17:04
really hard to do because we like what
17:06
we like. Uh, I like showing up,
17:10
listening to hymns, doing
17:13
these various traditions, and following
17:15
the liturgy in a certain way. So somebody
17:18
who comes along and says, well, you
17:21
know, we want to dance the liturgy,
17:24
mhm. You know, that makes us uncomfortable.
17:26
So we've got to be willing
17:29
to say, that may not work for me, but
17:32
they're going to be able to engage people I would not
17:35
engage. So how do I journey with them
17:38
instead of trying to
17:41
push and say what they're doing is
17:44
not appropriate.
17:46
>> Loren: Right, right. So the next one
17:49
here is, you know, I feel like these are
17:51
escalating in difficulty. Right?
17:54
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
17:54
>> Loren: Take, uh, risks and tug.
17:57
Speaking from my own perspective, like,
18:01
I'm not currently right now in
18:03
a, uh, ministry, full time church
18:06
ministry role. But I know when I was leading
18:09
congregations in that capacity,
18:12
the challenge became this self
18:15
fulfilling prophecy, almost where it was like,
18:18
because resources were so limited,
18:21
because failure was
18:25
such a frightening
18:27
scenario,
18:30
taking, um, risks, it became
18:33
like more and more difficult to take
18:35
risks. And the stakes
18:38
seemed like, even with small risks, seemed
18:41
infinitely higher. Talk about
18:44
how churches and pastors and leaders
18:47
can take risks in these contexts
18:50
that we're in, when the stakes just seem so high.
18:54
>> Speaker D: And, uh, it's a really good question and a really difficult
18:57
question. And you hit on the
19:00
key piece is resources.
19:02
Right. That resources are
19:05
how we often frame the conversation. And I think
19:08
resources in many cases is why we
19:11
don't take risk. That
19:14
the question we ask is how much is it going to
19:17
cost? That
19:19
becomes the frame through which we make the decision of
19:22
whether we should move forward. I
19:25
think the help
19:28
us to really move forward, we have to reframe
19:31
the questions we're asking. So instead of asking
19:34
how much it costs, what we should be
19:37
asking is, does this
19:39
help us fulfill our mission? M.
19:42
Right. So if
19:45
this helps us fulfill our mission,
19:48
then let's talk about
19:52
how it helps us fulfill the mission and
19:54
then be in conversation with
19:57
individuals about collaborating
20:00
or other ways that we can make that happen.
20:03
But we shouldn't begin with how much does
20:06
it cost? Because we almost always are going to shut down the
20:09
conversation and not move forward from that point.
20:12
But if we talk about does it fulfill the mission?
20:15
So in that case, if we're thinking about
20:18
what is critically important is we
20:21
need a children's choir.
20:24
>> Loren: Mhm.
20:24
>> Speaker D: Instead of thinking about, well, we got to pay for a children's
20:27
director, we're going to need all this different
20:30
stuff. And then we say, it's just
20:33
too expensive. We begin with,
20:37
if we have a children's ministry, then that
20:40
is going to help us to continue
20:43
to have an impact in forming children
20:46
for their christian journey. And we're going to do
20:49
this through song, and then we can
20:52
begin to talk about, well,
20:55
can we have the
20:58
current musician spend some of their
21:01
time working with the children? Are there other
21:03
people in the congregation who have a musical
21:06
background that can be so, I mean, we have to
21:09
then start thinking about, once we get
21:11
to that, it does make sense
21:14
missionately. Then let's start talking about what is
21:17
available for us, resource wise to make this
21:20
work. So, uh, I think asking a different
21:23
question can help us to take a risk.
21:26
But it's hard to ask that question because
21:29
so many congregations are experiencing
21:32
decline. That first thought
21:35
is always, how much does it cost?
21:37
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, that's helpful. Okay, the
21:40
last one here, and again, I kind of said
21:43
here for our listeners, like, these are three hard
21:46
things. The last one is putting aside convictions
21:49
and Doug, like, I'll be honest, when I read this,
21:52
I was like, hold on, what's going on
21:55
here? Yet by
21:58
time I got to the end of that section, I was like,
22:01
man, there's something
22:03
here. Uh, because again, you
22:06
frame it through, through the story of
22:09
Peter and Cornelius, and he had the
22:12
conviction, right? He had the conviction that he should not
22:15
eat, you know,
22:18
eat these meals, this kind of food.
22:20
So, man, talk through, like,
22:23
talk through that for me, again, for our listeners,
22:26
like, because it just. Yeah, it's
22:29
challenging here.
22:31
>> Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I think this one
22:34
is really tough because, you know, you
22:37
think about Peter. I mean, he's been brought up his entire
22:40
life.
22:40
>> Loren: Mhm.
22:41
>> Speaker D: With thinking this is the
22:44
dietary restriction that is required. And
22:47
this, you know, and if you broaden the conversation
22:50
to circumcision, which is the part of the
22:52
conversation ultimately, that we talked about for the Jews
22:55
like this, this is what is required.
22:58
So this is not a small deal. This is a
23:01
huge deal.
23:02
Um,
23:05
so when,
23:06
um,
23:09
Peter gets this dream,
23:12
it has to be just like he's been
23:15
hit upside the head by a two x four. Right? I mean,
23:18
this has got to be like he's thinking, what's going on
23:21
here? God, this can't be true.
23:24
So this has got to be really
23:27
challenging for, for him. And I
23:30
think the lesson of acts for
23:33
us is what Peter comes to
23:36
realize is, while
23:39
he probably is not going to
23:42
change his diet.
23:44
>> Loren: Mhm.
23:44
>> Speaker D: It doesn't mean, again, that there are those, the
23:47
gentiles who do eat
23:49
differently, but who can't live out
23:52
faithfully the core of the gospel that has been
23:55
presented to him, but he would not
23:58
have thought about that if it had not been for
24:01
the dream. And, of course, Cornelia sending for
24:04
him because of, uh, what happens with
24:06
Cornelius. So putting aside our
24:09
convictions helps us to see
24:11
that we may not change because the
24:14
Jews did not give up circumcision.
24:16
But they said, you know what? That is
24:19
not critical for
24:22
actually being faithful
24:24
to following God, and that the
24:27
Gentiles, that's not going to become something that's
24:29
required in terms of, at that
24:32
time, becoming a person of the way. So
24:35
I think the lesson for all
24:38
of us is really
24:41
getting to, are we
24:43
creating barriers,
24:46
almost, that we think
24:48
are important, but really
24:52
are not important in the way
24:55
God may look at it in terms of, can
24:57
we faithfully follow
25:00
God, um, and live
25:02
out our christian journey,
25:05
um, without some of the ways that
25:08
we decide this is critically
25:11
important and must be done. So I
25:14
think the story,
25:17
um, and those, uh, stories and acts
25:19
really highlight that for us in ways that,
25:23
I mean, as you say, when you read it, it sort of
25:25
surprises you. You're sort of like, wow.
25:28
Like, you know, we can sometimes
25:31
skim over it, but it's a big deal.
25:33
>> Loren: Yeah. So I want to continue
25:35
to dive in here because I'm just
25:38
thinking, like, I just
25:41
heard a podcast from an
25:44
SBC leader the other day
25:46
about, I guess they have, as we're speaking,
25:50
I forget, like, that they have
25:53
something going on right now in the SBC that
25:56
potentially will, I think, kick out, essentially, like any
25:59
SBC church that has women, uh,
26:02
pastors on staff. I forget the name,
26:05
the amendment, or whatever is,
26:07
um. I'm thinking on the other side of
26:10
the theological spectrum. Right. Certainly,
26:13
in your context, you're well familiar with
26:17
the disruption, the conflict that's been over
26:20
lgbt inclusion in the church. Uh, so,
26:23
obviously, these kind of issues.
26:26
These are people, we'd say, um,
26:29
on both sides of these
26:31
perspectives in the SBC or in,
26:34
I guess, broadly speaking, the wesleyan movement, right.
26:37
Who feel very strongly have convictions about
26:40
these issues, whether it be, uh, ordaining women,
26:43
clergy, or lgbt inclusion.
26:46
So let's get real practical here, if you
26:49
can. What do you advise? What do you recommend
26:52
when. Because, again, if I hold the
26:55
conviction, uh, in putting these two issues aside, if I hold the
26:57
conviction that I grew up like KGB only,
27:00
right? Like, if I have a conviction, like
27:03
I was taught, like, MacArthur, and again,
27:06
I was kind of a child of the nineties apologetics movement, like,
27:09
you know, conviction is something you die for. So maybe that. Maybe
27:12
that. That whole kind of thinking needs to be kind of
27:15
chilled out a little. Bit. But, you know, I think
27:18
many people were taught, like, convictions need to be, like, held tightly.
27:20
So how does a pastor even
27:23
begin to, um,
27:26
to guide someone through that process of
27:30
reevaluation?
27:32
>> Speaker D: I think, um, it's
27:35
important to not
27:38
undermine people's convictions,
27:40
um, even if I may disagree with
27:43
you,
27:47
if that conviction is important for
27:49
you. Um, the beautiful thing about
27:52
Christianity, there are people who are
27:55
going to hold that conviction where you could faithfully practice.
27:58
So I want to say that first
28:01
that it is not
28:03
my goal to
28:05
undermine if something is held dearly to
28:08
someone. Um, I think
28:11
it's important that we honor that people are going to
28:14
disagree with the way that we may
28:17
think.
28:20
But I also think that
28:24
as individuals, we
28:27
change, and,
28:29
um, that even as
28:32
denominations, we obviously change.
28:35
Um, so
28:38
if we go back to, um, women
28:41
or even people of color within the
28:44
Methodist church, you know, there was a time
28:47
when the church split over
28:50
slavery, and even then, when it came
28:52
back together, they created in the United Methodist
28:55
church, um, you know, the
28:58
central sort of jurisdiction where
29:01
you had a separate jurisdiction just for African
29:04
Americans. It wasn't until 1968 when you have the
29:07
United Methodist church, that it all comes
29:09
together.
29:12
These are not quick fixes. I mean,
29:15
and that's the piece that I'm trying to get to.
29:18
You're not going to wake up tomorrow and
29:21
say, um, um, this is
29:24
now I'm putting aside. I'm going to do this. I mean, these
29:26
things take place over a
29:29
long period of time where people say,
29:32
you know what? I do see
29:35
this differently and realize
29:38
that this probably was not as
29:41
critical as we thought it was before.
29:44
Um, so, going
29:47
to your question, like I said, I don't
29:49
think we should undermine anyone's convictions, but I do
29:52
think that over time, many of these
29:55
things do change for individuals. I
29:58
mean, you have individuals today who
30:02
I don't like using these terms, but are considered more conservative
30:04
theologically, that they're
30:07
different from conservatives that were 15 or 20 years
30:10
ago in terms of, uh, they're not disturbed
30:13
by some of the things in a ways that others
30:15
are. So I think that,
30:18
um, the thing that we have
30:21
to be careful of is one
30:23
trying to force
30:26
everybody to sort of fit into our
30:28
box, um, but at the
30:31
same time realizing that
30:35
these things often do change
30:38
over time, but it takes a long time. I
30:41
mean, that is the struggle
30:44
and the period for those
30:47
who are suffering. Um, and trying to get
30:50
to change can be really challenging
30:53
while you're trying to wait for that transformation to take
30:56
place. I don't want to underplay that either.
30:59
That's a tough period of time. I think of the words of Martin
31:01
Luther King in a letter of a Birmingham jail of
31:04
basically, you know, how long must we
31:07
be patient? So that
31:10
period of why you're trying to create that change is really
31:13
hard. Um, so
31:17
putting aside convictions, that's why I say I think,
31:20
can be extremely difficult.
31:22
But I'm hoping what people
31:25
can do is sort of like,
31:28
um, they did in a book of acts of really getting
31:31
to. Even
31:34
though we may see things differently, they were still able to
31:37
work together.
31:38
>> Loren: Right.
31:38
>> Speaker D: They were able to find a way to
31:41
coexist and for the faith to move
31:44
forward. Um, that
31:47
was wonderfully creative, and I think that's the
31:50
piece we've lost today. We've lost that ability to
31:52
coexist.
31:55
>> Loren: Yeah, I was thinking about. I'm just
31:58
thinking. I'm reminding of, um. Like, I
32:01
preached a sermon at the United Methodist church I was serving
32:03
at in the summer when, um. I think
32:06
last summer, right. When a lot of the stuff,
32:09
at least in the UMC, kind of went,
32:12
um, broke down. And, like, I was preaching
32:15
on ephesians four.
32:18
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
32:18
>> Loren: You know, and I was thinking, like. Like, to
32:21
me, I don't know, I guess that's the struggle, right. To
32:24
me, we should be able to say, hey,
32:27
one lord, one faith in baptism. That's what we agree on. That's
32:30
what we can worship and serve alongside one
32:32
another. But I don't know, I guess that's
32:35
my conviction. Um.
32:37
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I wish. I wish we could.
32:40
>> Loren: Yeah. I certainly appreciate your
32:43
nuance. And just, like, the. The
32:46
reality of, like, this takes time. This is a lot
32:49
of work. It's not easy. Um, and
32:51
that's why, again, just for our listeners, there's a
32:54
lot more we're not going to have time to discuss
32:57
today. That's in the book that I'd really recommend
33:00
checking out the book. Um, so
33:03
let me ask two more questions here, just because our time is really
33:06
moving quickly here. One of the things
33:09
I really liked in the book is you talk about the
33:12
importance of clarity, and I really, really
33:15
appreciate this because, um,
33:18
you emphasize the word so that, like, I think if
33:21
I'm remembering correctly, you give an example of, like, you know,
33:24
we want to have a youth room, or let's say with your example of,
33:27
like, a children's choir. Like, we want to have a
33:29
children's choir so that we'll
33:32
have more children in the church. And you say
33:35
they've stopped too short with that. So that. So do you
33:38
want to go into more detail there?
33:41
>> Speaker D: Yeah. This, um,
33:43
Lovett, um, is the one who really
33:45
helped coin, uh, this, um, term.
33:48
So that. And what the. So that really
33:51
does is provide a why.
33:55
So oftentimes,
33:57
um, just playing off the example we've been
34:00
using, we want a
34:03
children's choir,
34:05
m but we don't answer why or
34:08
what's the purpose? Right.
34:10
>> Loren: Yeah.
34:10
>> Speaker D: We want a children's choir so that
34:14
we will be able to shape and
34:17
form our children in
34:20
the christian musical tradition. So
34:22
now we've got the reason behind
34:25
why we are creating this choir.
34:28
And when you do that, it helps to bring
34:31
clarity, um, in terms of
34:34
supporting the effort that you're trying to do.
34:37
When we stop short of that
34:39
clarity, what it does is
34:42
it leaves it wide open, one, for
34:44
interpretation, but two, it leaves it
34:47
open where people aren't sure.
34:50
>> Loren: Mhm.
34:51
>> Speaker D: What the purpose is behind. Are we just doing it
34:54
because we.
34:55
>> Loren: Want to bring in more kids?
34:56
>> Speaker D: We want to bring in more kids, or are we doing it because the kids
34:59
we have, we think they're not doing anything? So
35:02
when you can create the clarity of the
35:05
why, it really helps then to move
35:08
forward in a way that you can
35:11
get people to say, ah. Ah. Okay. You
35:13
know, we're going to really help and shape and
35:16
form our children and the
35:19
tradition, uh, of the church so that,
35:22
um, this will help them for their christian
35:25
journey.
35:26
>> Loren: And I think it kind of goes back to
35:29
two of the things you said earlier here from my notes,
35:32
because, again, if we're thinking about, uh, children's choir
35:35
and, uh, if the why is just like, oh, we want to bring in more
35:38
kids, there's going to be
35:41
a resource or commitment question, like how much
35:43
resources, how much time, how much are we willing to commit to
35:46
this? But if it's like, hey, this is our
35:49
mission. Like, we really believe
35:52
a, uh, vital part of our mission together as a church
35:54
is to. To minister to the
35:57
next generation. And this is a great
36:00
opportunity, we believe, to do that. And it's going to be like,
36:04
man, I'm all in. Or there's a different
36:06
commitment level, right?
36:09
>> Speaker D: Absolutely. I think
36:12
you've phrased it well, that
36:15
if you start with the resources,
36:19
you already are behind the eight ball. But
36:22
when you start missionally, the,
36:25
um. So that really helps you, because it
36:28
helps people to really focus
36:30
on how this fits missionally with what
36:33
we want to do, which then helps you with the resource
36:36
question.
36:38
>> Loren: Okay, let's do one more question here before we take a
36:40
break. Near the end of the book, you talk about why change
36:43
fails. So share about that
36:46
here.
36:49
>> Speaker D: The challenge is
36:53
you can have a wonderful idea. I mean,
36:56
just a fantastic idea that
36:58
makes all the sense in the world.
37:01
Um, and people can nod their heads and say, you know
37:04
what? That's a fantastic idea. Yes, we absolutely should
37:07
do that.
37:08
>> Loren: Yeah, I've been there.
37:09
>> Speaker D: The failure comes then, in the
37:11
implementation of the idea
37:14
and thinking about innovation.
37:17
Piece of this is oftentimes,
37:20
particularly if it's a disruptive idea,
37:24
what we end up doing is trying
37:26
to implement it in the same way
37:29
we would a, uh, sustaining sort of innovation. And what I
37:32
mean by that is,
37:35
if I want
37:38
to, um,
37:41
improve my youth
37:43
ministry,
37:47
I probably can do that by
37:51
one, possibly hiring a youth director
37:54
or two,
37:56
coordinating programs that would
37:59
connect to youth so that
38:02
they could be more engaged in sort of, uh, their
38:05
journey. So I can sort of do that because
38:09
we have the youth now and we can sort
38:11
of work to figure out how we want to improve the ministry.
38:14
>> Loren: Mhm.
38:16
>> Speaker D: But if I am
38:19
an african american church in a transitioning
38:22
neighborhood that now has become
38:25
predominantly white, and I say
38:28
I want to reach out and
38:31
connect with my neighbors, well, I don't have any
38:33
experience in doing that. I don't
38:36
know how to do that. So simply
38:40
using that model of, uh,
38:42
well, we're just going to do what we always
38:45
do and just go out and say, well, come and
38:48
join these things we already do. It's
38:51
probably not going to work for us. We're going to have
38:53
to actually,
38:56
one really figure out what our desired outcome is, is
38:59
our desired outcome. To create a
39:01
beloved community, a church where we're worshiping together
39:05
is our desired outcome. You
39:07
know, just simply
39:10
to have them be a part
39:13
of outreach ministry. So you got to think about your
39:16
desired outcome. I mean, that's critically important. And once
39:19
you sort of know your desired outcome, you
39:22
can then figure out, what do I need to learn?
39:25
So then you begin with the question of
39:27
learning and not the question of
39:30
actually doing. And in
39:33
learning, that will allow you then to take
39:35
the step to start moving towards that
39:38
desired outcome. So the implementation
39:41
is very different and we fail
39:44
because we often are, uh, trying
39:47
to implement an innovation
39:50
that where, uh, we probably need to
39:53
think more of it as disruptive, but we try to use a sustaining
39:56
model and that leads us to
39:58
failing.
39:59
>> Loren: Yeah, that's really helpful. Cause again, I'm thinking through your youth group
40:02
idea, like, if the. So that
40:05
is just to bring in more youth kids, that's gonna be
40:08
like, we're gonna buy more pizza and we're gonna have more fun
40:10
games and, uh, spiff up the
40:13
youth room. Uh, but if the. So that is,
40:16
we wanna bring in more youth kids, so we can
40:19
disciple them in the faith, and that's gonna be like, well, what does that
40:22
even mean to disciple kids in the 21st
40:25
century? Right?
40:26
>> Speaker D: Yeah, that's right.
40:27
>> Loren: Yeah. This is good stuff. So, again, the book is
40:30
sustaining while disrupting the challenge of congregational
40:33
innovation. We've only touched, like,
40:35
really, like, one chapter today, really. So I
40:38
really recommend, folks, check out the book should, uh, be
40:41
available wherever books are sold. Let's take a quick break
40:44
and come back with some closing questions.
40:49
All right, we're back with Doug Poe. So thanks so much for this
40:52
conversation. Uh, closing questions.
40:55
You've answered these at one point, so since it's been a while, let's
40:58
just go again. If you were pope for a
41:01
day, what might that day look like for you?
41:05
>> Speaker D: If I were pope for a day,
41:09
I would really
41:12
love to have people
41:15
sit down, to have authentic
41:17
conversations where they
41:20
really listen to one another.
41:23
And it's not that
41:26
my expectation would be that all of a
41:29
sudden people are going to
41:32
deeply change their minds or be
41:34
persuaded, um,
41:37
to have different perspectives. But I
41:40
think today, one of the challenges
41:43
we have is we don't really listen to one another.
41:45
>> Loren: Yeah.
41:46
>> Speaker D: Uh, that we're in this world
41:49
where the idea is, I've got to get my point
41:51
out or create the narrative so
41:54
quickly that I'm not really hearing the other
41:57
person. So, really, a
41:59
day where we could really hear each
42:02
other, um, to me, would just be a
42:05
wonderful gift, um, for all of
42:08
us to be able to have that deep listening.
42:10
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. A, um,
42:13
theologian or historical christian figure you'd want to
42:16
meet or bring back to life.
42:20
>> Speaker D: I don't remember what I said last time, but today I would
42:23
bring back my namesake, Frederick Douglass.
42:25
>> Loren: Okay.
42:26
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So, um, I think it
42:29
would be
42:31
interesting to bring back Frederick Douglass
42:34
and be able to talk
42:37
with him about the ways that he
42:40
actually would, um, integrate
42:43
theological themes in many of his
42:45
speeches, um, and
42:48
to share with him sort of what has happened
42:50
since his death, and to get his input
42:53
into how he now would
42:55
rethink, um, sort of, um,
42:58
how he would approach moving forward with some of the
43:01
challenges we still face with racism. So it would be
43:04
interesting to bring back my namesake.
43:06
>> Loren: Absolutely. Absolutely. What, um, do you think
43:09
history will remember from our current time and place?
43:14
>> Speaker D: Unfortunately, I think the divisiveness, I
43:16
mean, um,
43:20
we are in a period going back to where I said,
43:23
if I were po for the day, about really being able to listen to each
43:26
other but we're in a period of such
43:28
divisiveness where we really
43:32
can't listen to one another, that it
43:35
becomes sort of throwing
43:38
jabs, mhm, across all
43:40
spectrums. Um, and I
43:43
think unfortunately that's going to be,
43:47
at least right now, how this period is remembered.
43:50
I'm hoping that changes, um, that
43:53
it actually can be, uh, that narrative can be
43:56
altered, but right now, unfortunately, I think that's how
43:58
this time is going to be remembered.
44:00
>> Loren: Well, let me bring this last question a little bit more
44:03
local, so to speak. You serve in the United
44:06
Methodist Church. As we've alluded to, the
44:09
Methodist movement in America and more
44:12
broadly speaking worldwide, right. Has undergone a
44:15
shared bit of, uh, division.
44:18
What do you hope for? Whether you want
44:21
to answer for the United Methodist Church, for the Methodist
44:24
movement globally, in the states, what do you hope
44:27
for, uh, this movement?
44:31
>> Speaker D: My hope, um,
44:35
and I'll answer it in both ways. My hope for the United Methodist
44:37
Church is that we can really
44:41
take this opportunity
44:44
to
44:46
refocus missionally on what we
44:49
want to be as a denomination.
44:51
>> Loren: Mhm.
44:51
>> Speaker D: I think that that is critically important in
44:54
terms of moving forward
44:58
for Methodists, and I'm going really
45:00
broad here, including
45:03
m all Methodists. My hope is
45:06
that we could continue
45:09
that spirit of
45:12
really, um, Wesleyan's
45:15
idea of
45:17
transformation and
45:20
the importance of
45:23
what it means to truly
45:26
be committed to loving God as we love our
45:29
neighbor, as we experience the
45:32
working transformation of the Holy Spirit and
45:35
share, um, participating in God's
45:37
work of that transformation.
45:40
So my hope is that that
45:43
spirit of transformation that was at the
45:45
heart of the wesleyan movement, but
45:48
continue to be at the heart of the movement for all
45:51
Methodists.
45:52
>> Loren: Well, thanks for, thanks for engaging that with me.
45:55
Um, share, if you would, where people can connect
45:58
with you. Share. Uh, about the Lewis Center.
46:01
I know they've got a podcast. You all got a podcast that's
46:04
not quite as good as mine, right?
46:07
>> Speaker D: Absolutely. Never quite as good. That's right.
46:10
No, we have a wonderful podcast. So one of the
46:13
easiest ways to connect with me is church
46:15
leadership.com. Mhm,
46:17
churchleadership.com. Um, where you will
46:20
see, um, our Lewis center
46:22
resources, our podcast
46:25
newsletter, and the various other resources that we
46:28
offer. And of course you can go through Wesley
46:30
Theological Seminary's website and also,
46:33
um, find me there and connect with me there.
46:36
>> Loren: Awesome. Well, I really appreciate the conversation.
46:39
Again, I want to recommend the books sustaining
46:42
while disrupting for listeners. Go
46:45
check it out, Doug. Uh, always leave folks with a word of
46:47
peace. So may God's peace be with you.
46:50
>> Speaker D: Amen.
46:53
>> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
46:56
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
46:58
visit future dash christian.com.
47:01
One more thing before you go, do us a favor
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47:16
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47:27
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