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Lift As You Climb: How Women Leaders Bring Others Up with Kim Schaller · Loud & Lifted

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Welcome to Loud and Lifted, the podcast where
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we turn up the volume on women supporting women.
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I'm your host, Betsy Hammond. I am especially
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excited about today's episode. Not only is this
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our very first guest, but this is a guest of
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someone who shaped my journey in the very beginning
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of my career, over 20 some years ago. She's a
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mentor, a role model, and a true rock star, the
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incredible Kim Schaller. Kim is a brand building
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revenue driving marketing powerhouse with over
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25 years of experience across entertainment,
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hospitality and travel. She spent 17 years on
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the executive committee senior leadership level
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of a legacy rich company, leading growth strategy,
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customer experience, employee engagement and
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shareholder value. Kim was the first and only
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female vice president at her company during her
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tenure. And while she was trailblazing her own
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path, she was just as intentional about clearing
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the way for others. Long before women in leadership
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was trending, Kim was creating a space starting
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the conversation and doing the real work to help
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women rise. So buckle up. This episode is about
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grit growth and what it truly means to lift others
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as you climb. So let's get loud and lifted with
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the one and only Kim Schaller. I didn't run that
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by you ahead of time. So you know, No, Kim, thank
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you for being here. And as I said, it's only
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fitting to start with you, because you were there
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at the start of my career and really helped form
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what I thought about women and leadership and
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were the true icon back in the day. So let's
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go back like 20 some years, right, to the beginning
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of at least my relationship of when I knew you
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and being the first vice president or sorry,
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the first woman vice president, actually the
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first vice president of marketing, too, which
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is a whole other conversation. But take us back
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to that time and how you handle that and just
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sort of where you were at that time. Oh my god,
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I'm so honored. I'm so honored, and I'm so proud
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of you. Oh my god, you're like a shining star
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in my life. You really are. Aw, thank you. And
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I think which we'll touch on. It wasn't always
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easy with us, and that's why it's more enduring.
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Women relationships aren't always that we're
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lockstep all along the way. We had some times,
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but bottom line is I'm here. I live in Scottsdale,
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Arizona. I moved to Scottsdale. I was with HG
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&R Hershey Entertainment Resorts for 31 years.
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And I was thinking back on this, Betsy, because
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I was there. I started in 85, which is crazy.
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And I was advertising coordinator for Hershey
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Park. And I was there for 10 years doing every
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job imaginable in the marketing area. I just
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would raise my hand for anything, any assignment
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I did. I worked my ass off. And then I got recruited
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to Space Center Houston in Houston to be director
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of marketing there. And that entire 10 years
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at HENR, there was never any women's, there was
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never any women's programs. So when I left, I
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was there for three years and I got a call about
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potentially coming back to HENR in a brand new
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role to oversee sales and marketing for the whole
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company. So I came back, which was amazing. I
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came back and then I was there for another 21
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years. But one of the things about coming back,
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I felt when I got back, like women in the organization
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were so thirsty for programming around communication
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skills and work -life balance and exposure. And
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so I decided, I think I'm going to try to develop
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a program to really develop women. I told you
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this the other day, the irony was it was really
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to help benefit me too. Because every room I
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sat in, every meeting, it was all men and me.
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And I knew I needed to develop my own skills
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in terms of how to deal with men. So I created
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this program that was beneficial. I'm such an
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ass. It was beneficial to me as well as to the
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other women in the organization. That's not being
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selfish though, because again, you were worried
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about other women too, and the fact that you
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shouldn't be the only one in the room. So when
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you first brought that up, how was that received?
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What was the feedback from? Well, that was a
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total, I totally fucked that up. I scheduled
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a meeting with Scott Newcomb, God rest his soul,
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who was the CEO at the time, who has since passed,
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truly a mentor of mine. And I have to tell you,
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men have been incredibly supportive of me throughout
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my entire career. So I love, I really do love
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men and the relationships that I've had. So I
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got, I got all ready and Scott was a finance
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guy. So I put all this data together on, you
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know, our workforce, the percentage of women
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in leadership positions, the cop percentages.
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And I went into Scott and honest to God, if you
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could like visualize it, it was like my. this
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were clenched. And you know how I can be. Oh,
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yeah. Yeah. Were you pointing also? Because you
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like pointing my eyes. And I said, we need to
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have a program to really enable women to true
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leadership, we need to be treated as equals.
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I went in there more militant. And I threw all
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this data at him and he was sitting there and
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God love him. He looked at me and he said, I
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want to continue this conversation, but you need
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to go back and talk about goals. Talk about how
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is this going to help the organization? How are
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we going to be able to retain and recruit and
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professional development? You need to get off
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your high horse. I walked out of there with my
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tail between my legs. I truly did, but he was
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right. And I think for any women out there listening
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to this, you've got to monitor and watch your
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approach. If you're trying to build consensus
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and trying to get people all on the same side,
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you can't go in there. A little emotional. Yeah.
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So anyway, it was a great lesson and I did. And
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then honestly, the program started in 2003 and
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it went on. You know, I don't know how robust
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it is now, but when I left in 2015, the program
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was incredible. So besides the fact that you
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didn't want to be alone, what were some of the
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goals that you were going to, at least in your
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own head, I get that you put together, you know,
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probably something a little different that you
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shared with the leadership at Hershey at the
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time, but like, what were your goals? How are
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you going to identify success for this work,
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for this group as it went on through the years?
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You start with, at the time we had 25 % of women
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on the manager's list, which is the highest level
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in the organization manager's list. There was
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only 25%, so my goal was always to be at least
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50%. And on the executive team, and again, I'm
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sorry, I don't even know what the number is today,
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but I do know that, oh, it's absolutely better.
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I wanted women to feel like they had a voice.
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I wanted women to survive and thrive in a very
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male -dominated organization. Hershey is a very
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paternalistic organization, so there is no denying
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that. It's male -dominated and it's finance -dominated.
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Here I am, a woman marketer. There was everything
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working against me at the time, but I really
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was determined. I wanted women to feel that they
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had a place where they could feel safe. We had
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monthly meetings and annual conferences, and
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the men used to wonder, what goes on in those
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meetings? They thought we had secret handshakes,
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but the reality is, and I would invite them.
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I said, you are welcome to, and some did, you're
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welcome to attend any time you want to. So I
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don't - Well, and I think some of them thought
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there was like a, it was male bashing, right?
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But it wasn't about them. We weren't talking
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about men. It was, they were never the topic
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of conversation. Go form your own group. They
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have their boys club. Yeah. You know, I mean,
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we women, we show up to work with so many different
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issues than men show up to work with. So we needed
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to find a place where we could share and vent
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about being working moms, about taking care of
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elderly parents, about, I mean, we just needed
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a safe space to do all that. We're different.
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Like, we're different. That's what it is too.
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We are. And let's celebrate that. Absolutely.
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Absolutely. Well, let me ask you because you
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were a woman in the organization. How did the
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program benefit you? Yeah, you know, absolutely.
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I think I. looked around and knew that you were
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the only one right at the top. So that kind of
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sticks in your head as a 22 year old where you're
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like, wow, why is there one woman in a leadership
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role? But I love that you had the voice behind
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that. And you know, we're cheerleading and cheerleading
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and bringing everyone along with you. But I think
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with that women in leadership group was it was
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it was twofold. One was like the networking and
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the relationships. I got to meet people in the
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company outside of marketing, because I might
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have only known the marketing ladies and the
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people I dealt with at the park were mostly men,
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right? So, and there was plenty of women across
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the organization. So I think just networking,
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meeting those women that then if I happen to
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walk into a room that they're in, I'm going to
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feel comfortable because I talked to that woman.
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I've had a conversation. I know she has kids
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or whatever. So I think the networking piece
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that was huge, but there was a lot of professional
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development stuff that we did that I still use
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today. And some of it was around communication
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and how we're different and like that emotional
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intelligence, because women tend to be stronger
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at that. talking about like the pie. That's definitely
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a future episode of it's not just your performance,
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but it's your image and what people say when
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you're not in the room and it's the exposure
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and who knows that you exist. So, you know, there
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was a lot of professional development pieces
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that I think were just so important that where
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else would you have gotten that like there isn't
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there was no other place to do that. You know,
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back then there wasn't, you know, a million social
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influencers or there wasn't, you know, podcasts
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or there were those kinds of opportunities to
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educate yourself. So it because you had to be
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educated with where you were and we, you know,
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had that opportunity to have that, so. Oh, good.
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See, so I mean, it's - Yes. You're the - That's
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why you're here today. You're the proof of the
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benefit, you know, because I don't know, all
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I know is I freaking loved it. I loved every
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minute of it. I loved creating the content. We
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had an external partner with Linda Strange that
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helped us put it together. I can't remember,
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Betsy, because you bring up exposure. We would
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have women going, I don't know why I don't get
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the attention. I don't know why I don't get opportunities.
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And we would go to, like, if we had meetings
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where the executive team was there, and I would
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watch them. They wouldn't even go and interact
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with the executive team. And I would come up
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to them afterwards and go, you want exposure?
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You totally had the chance and you sat with your
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group of friends and didn't even interact. So
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I could really be a bitch about that kind of
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thing. And I know there were some people that
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didn't like my approach, but if you're going
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to say you want it, you got to do what it takes
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to get it. Absolutely. That exposure piece is
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huge. I 100 % agree with that. But let's talk
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about your reputation, right? So you you know,
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you had a reputation of being a powerhouse and
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lovingly a hard -ass So, you know how much of
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that hard -ass approach was you, right? Or how
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much of that did you have to sort of change and
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evolve because you're in this male dominated
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world where you couldn't be, you know, sort of
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passive and laid back that you had to have that
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more aggressive approach. So and how do people
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take that as a woman versus if you were a man
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doing that? How did that go through your career?
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I think every time I would ever go and speak
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or do anything people would say, you know, what's
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the difference between, you know, just being
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aggressive and ambitious? that's just an ambition
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and a bitch are like just they seem to go hand
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in hand and I think I always my biggest thing
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was I always wanted to support other women and
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I think that's one of the things when I look
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around at women that have achieved and I see
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that they haven't supported other women that
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to me is just I would take that so personally
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and maybe you would think oh yeah Kim she's she's
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a badass but there would be times where I was
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like crumbling on the inside but I really took
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it seriously that when you walk through those
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doors in the morning no matter what's going on
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in your outside world you have to it's a performance.
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I mean, I'm sorry, but we're in a corporate world.
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If you're an entrepreneur and start your own
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business, you don't have to perform. But in a
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corporate environment, performance is necessary,
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especially being a woman. So I would be super
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sad or stressed on the inside, but just trying
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to kind of come in. But like people like you,
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the closer you and I got. Like I could go into
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your office and go, oh my God, I'm dying. You
13:18
know what I mean? I had people that I could let
13:22
my hair down with. So you try to stay stoic,
13:28
but that was always hard. Do you have any tips
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for that? How do you stay? Because everybody
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is, to your point, balancing so much with, whether
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it's kids or aging parents or health issues,
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how do you show up and still be authentic, but
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also be able to continue to move forward and
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do your job? Yeah. I would tell other women,
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you never know what a fellow, a woman colleague
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is coming in to work with. You never know. So
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please, let's just, how do we treat each other
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with respect and give each other a break? Because
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you never know. I know I can't go and change.
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Women are just not nice to each other and don't
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support each other. And whether it's from grade
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school all the way through, I'm living in this
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community now. We're all at a stage of our life
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where things are good. I live in a 55 plus community
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where people golf and play tennis. But there
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are cliques of women that form. No, don't tell
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me it doesn't change. They're snarky and bitchy
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and they have an attitude and... So I have just,
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you know, I just stay away. And the older I've
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gotten, the more I've removed toxic relationships
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from my life because it's just not worth it.
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So I would say to people, if you're in a profession,
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you have to deal with people. So just go in and
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just put your best foot forward and don't let
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personal enter into it. And that's the hardest
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advice to give to a woman because we cannot help
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but letting personal enter into it. I have been
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devastated by other women through my career.
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Just other women have I've felt so let down.
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I felt betrayed. And that's the worst. Oh, absolutely.
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It was it was way more than being betrayed because
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I don't think men don't think they do that. You
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know, I don't I don't think they have betrayal
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or jealousy or envy or the way that women do.
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Do you? No, and I think part of it too maybe
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is like the emotional connection because I think
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of like during your career right and especially
15:38
when you're in a position of influence right
15:40
in leadership and and people who maybe are around
15:43
you I don't want to say below you but like at
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a lower level they feel like they can benefit
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from your relationship but then when you're not
15:50
in that position and I just have gone through
15:51
this you know being at a CEO level and then leaving
15:55
who you hear from and who you don't after you're
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not in that role is you know if I take it personally
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like oh I can't believe I haven't talked to this
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person I can't believe I haven't reached out
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or if you text they don't respond whatever it
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is it's like oh I guess that relationship was
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transactional or professional whatever you want
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to call it and I well I tend to have more of
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like wanting that emotional connection in like
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a real relationship And then you're like, oh
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shit, that's not real. Guess they're not really,
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you know, not that we were hanging out on the
16:22
weekend kind of friends, but like having that
16:24
friendly type of relationship. So I don't know
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if you've had that happen to you too over the
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years. Oh my God, absolutely. And it's devastating.
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And your word transactional is exactly right.
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I didn't think things were just transactional.
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I thought - Right. we were, I thought we were,
16:41
not like, let's go over to each other's house
16:43
and sit over. I didn't even socialize with them.
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But if I get on a business lunch with them, oh
16:49
my God, we talked about kids, we talked about
16:51
life, we talked about dreams. I mean, we talked
16:55
about everything. And then when I left, to never
16:58
hear from them, it was just so... It's devastating.
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I mean, it's just a devastating thing to realize
17:07
that you were really just a through way to a
17:11
business opportunity. Right. And maybe I don't
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know that that hurts men's feelings, the way
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that it hurts. Yeah. I don't know. That would
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be interesting to find out. I don't know if it
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will change that about us. No. That's what makes
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us amazing. Like I don't want to change that
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about me. I love that I have that capacity to
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care about other people right and I can't give
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any advice for anybody other than to just Just
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suck it up. It's what makes us women and it what
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makes us different and it's what I value most
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in other women I don't know where I've had so
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much shit happen in my life. I Don't know where
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I would be without the other women in my life.
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I don't I mean I had a terrible, my husband was
17:56
a terrible addicted to drugs and alcohol and
17:59
he's actually dead now as a result of that. A
18:03
teenage daughter that lived through all that
18:04
all while I was working and building my career.
18:07
If it wasn't for the women in my life, I don't
18:09
know what I would have done. I love, I love the
18:13
women in my world. And again, you worked with
18:16
me, like all that stuff was going on while I
18:19
would come in and be like, hi, everybody. Oh
18:22
yeah. Miss cheerleader. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's
18:24
what's amazing. Knowing what I know now, or even,
18:27
you know, through the years, it's, it's the fact
18:29
that you showed up and you have a great big presence
18:34
that's full of energy and optimism and such a
18:36
cheerleader and who knows what was going on in
18:38
your day and you'd come rolling in the office
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like good morning. like, I mean, just on fire,
18:44
like, it was the best thing ever that you were
18:46
at work that day and that you were just so happy
18:48
to be there. So, you know, it's you always showed
18:50
up and you always brought that energy and enthusiasm
18:53
and you still have that and the optimism that
18:55
you need and leadership roles because everyone's
18:58
looking at you and even when you know, we're
18:59
having a bad year, things were difficult, even
19:02
professionally, you know, things were a struggle,
19:04
of course, as any business goes through. You
19:07
still kept that optimism was like, Okay, let's
19:08
solve this. Let's fix this. But you know, you
19:10
weren't sitting in the quarter curled up crying
19:12
that nobody's coming or what are we going to
19:15
do? You know, it was like, okay, let's solve
19:16
the problems. Let's move forward. But you did
19:18
it in a optimistic way. And you saved like the
19:22
the ass beating for behind closed doors. So I
19:24
appreciate that. I mean, tell you this, I swear
19:29
to God, the executive team, they all knew everything
19:32
that was going on in my life. And they were so
19:35
supportive of me. They had I had to let them
19:38
know. I mean, there would be times where I remember
19:41
once we had an executive retreat plan and I couldn't
19:45
go. I couldn't, I just, I couldn't leave. My
19:48
situation was really bad. And they were so understanding.
19:51
So, you know, I mean, I don't know, but yes,
19:55
behind closed doors, I could. Yeah. I could.
19:57
Yeah. Which you have to be, but you know, and
19:59
we mentioned that the tough love, but, um, yeah,
20:02
I think not. I think I know you're the only boss
20:06
who ever made me cry. I don't cry, right? But
20:11
I will tell you, it was never mean -spirited,
20:15
right? You weren't doing it to be mean. You were
20:17
doing it to make people better. And we talk about
20:20
our circle. We have our circle of employees and
20:24
team members that we used to work together. None
20:25
of us work together anymore, but we still have
20:27
that. here we are 20 some years later and we
20:31
haven't worked together for 10 years where there's
20:33
still that group where you know we support each
20:35
other and we cheer for each other and it might
20:37
be on text messages or it might be whatever but
20:39
I mean you form those relationships with us how
20:42
many years ago so it was for the good it was
20:44
for the positive right you know it just was it
20:46
was never to be mean it was to make us make us
20:49
better right and I could always remember like
20:51
I would have died for that kind of feedback because
20:53
I took that all really seriously in terms of
20:56
providing feedback for performance yeah Yeah,
20:58
you did. It just didn't get it. It wasn't as
21:03
much of a priority to others as it was to me.
21:05
You know, I think if we're all in it, we're all
21:07
trying to get better. How are you going to get
21:09
better unless you know? Oh, it worked out. I
21:14
mean, it may be during the time, but I'm here.
21:17
I know, and that's why I will always… Yeah, I
21:20
know. You stuck. with me and i'm stuck with you
21:25
and there yeah i know and here we are all these
21:27
years later You know, the one thing that has
21:31
come up as I talk to people about this whole
21:32
supporting other women, how we don't do it, every
21:34
woman you say it to, they're like, oh, yeah,
21:36
that's true, right? But the other part that's
21:39
been interesting to me is that I've had women
21:40
panic that like, oh, well, I didn't support so
21:43
-and -so because she's not good. So, you know,
21:46
how do you kind of balance that where sometimes
21:48
like, this isn't like carte blanche, like you
21:50
don't have to support every woman all the time
21:52
just because they're women, like people still
21:54
need to earn, you know, trust, respect, relationships,
21:57
credibility, you know, how does that? of work
21:59
where you know this isn't just because you're
22:01
a woman we got your back no matter what horrible
22:03
decision you make or what you do. Yeah well you
22:06
know I that I hear what you say but I see what
22:09
you do. That is such a classic because, you know,
22:13
women, I mean, they're so good and so polished
22:15
at saying all the right things. But then in reality,
22:19
when you watch what they do, it's just, but you
22:21
are, that's a perfect point. It is not carte
22:24
blanche. I mean, some women, you know, their
22:27
behavior and their motivations don't warrant
22:30
that unconditional support. They go, so I know.
22:35
It's so tricky and I don't have any magic bullet,
22:38
I don't have any, oh let me give you the three
22:40
keys to... guaranteed success. I would just say
22:44
really have empathy for other women because you
22:46
never know what they're going through. Have frank
22:50
and candid conversations with them and just,
22:53
you know, show up yourself being your most authentic
22:57
self every like every day because I'm sorry but
23:00
you see it with your daughters and bullying at
23:02
school and I see it with these 65 year olds here.
23:06
We can't change this inherent thing that women
23:09
have around being catty and about being small.
23:13
I don't understand it. I can't change it. All
23:17
I can do is change me. Yep. That's it. That's
23:20
all I can do. And who you surround yourself with.
23:22
Yes. Exactly. All I can do is change me and my
23:26
approach. So. Well, and you have a daughter who's
23:29
in her, is she in her 30s? 34! Oh my gosh, she's
23:33
in her 30s. Just like your girls. I know. They're
23:37
old. Yeah, she's still in high school in my head,
23:39
but just as she's grown. I mean, you got her
23:42
out of the house. She's successful. She's productive.
23:44
She lives her own life. What were some of those
23:46
sort of pieces that you were trying to teach
23:48
her through the years? I mean, I'm sure she still
23:51
has to deal with that stuff and she's 30, but
23:52
any advice that you've given your daughter through
23:54
the years? Oh, good God. I drive her insane.
23:58
I drive her insane. Like I would be like teaching
24:01
her about how to do a good handshake and make
24:03
eye contact as like a six year old. She's so
24:07
over me, you can't even imagine. But I do have
24:11
to tell you, Carly, I don't know how that she
24:14
never she got into the best group of friends.
24:19
And she did not experience bullying or bullshit
24:23
or I mean, she somehow Got it. And, you know,
24:27
I have spoken to teachers. I say there are certain
24:29
classes that there's it's a really good class
24:33
like the class of 2013 or 2019 was really good
24:38
and solid. And Carly just got just serendipitously
24:41
got really lucky. She is like she's just and
24:45
she's a therapist. That's crazy. That is so crazy.
24:48
A mental health therapist. She got her master's
24:51
from Messiah and now she's going to go to Oregon
24:54
State to get her PhD in mental health, which
24:57
is so hysterical that a kid, a child of mine
25:02
would be in mental health. She tells me all the
25:04
time how I need therapy. So yeah, she's, and
25:08
I think we're so much alike and yeah, she's a
25:11
piece of work. I'll tell you that. That's amazing.
25:13
I adore her. she's the best thing I ever did.
25:18
But she was has been very independent from a
25:20
young age. So that's, you know, credited to you
25:21
that you were able to raise her to be so independent
25:24
and a strong woman from I mean, for I feel like,
25:26
as long as I've known her, which is awesome.
25:27
So you know what that whole thing about, you
25:29
know, roots to grow wings to fly in terms of
25:32
child. You give your kids the roots to grow,
25:34
and then you give them the wings to fly. If they
25:37
grow up with the confidence to take on the world,
25:39
then you know, you've done a good job. I think
25:42
it's because I drove her so crazy she went she
25:46
got away. I don't know. And now you're coming
25:51
after her as you've gotten a couple hours closer.
25:54
So I'm here now. So I'm closer. She's like, oh,
25:57
geez, now where am I going to move? She's going
25:59
to move back to the East Coast back to Pennsylvania.
26:02
I mean, we talk, but she's a doll. I love her.
26:05
I love her. So yeah, thank you for bringing her
26:08
up. Okay. Finish the sentence. If women truly
26:10
support each other, like we should, then we would
26:13
do what? This is Betsy. Why don't you tell me
26:18
that in advance so I can come up with something
26:20
brilliant? You're usually good on the fly. I
26:23
know. We would... Oh, shit. God damn, we're gonna
26:29
edit this out. I don't know. We would, we should,
26:33
we would be honest and open and authentic with
26:39
each other. I like that. Okay, good. Okay, any
26:43
other parting words before we wrap up? Somebody
26:47
who's made it to the other side, you had an amazing
26:50
career and you, you know, made that impact on
26:53
women and that we still have conversations and
26:55
relationships today based off of stuff you did
26:56
27 years ago. So just any other parting words
26:59
for women who are in the workforce, just trying
27:02
to support each other and survive and thrive.
27:05
Honest to God, if you can, if your organization
27:08
does not have a women in leadership. organization
27:12
of any kind. I went through a file the other
27:14
day. I have so much content, and I would be so
27:17
happy to share it with anybody. I have so much
27:21
information that somebody could really build
27:23
a program internally. Because when I reflect
27:26
on 31 years, yes, I mean, we had, you know, 13
27:29
record years of performance. We built really
27:32
powerful brands among all of our assets. But
27:35
the Women in Leadership Initiative is something
27:38
that I am most proud of. would if anybody ever
27:42
wants to set one up call me I'm telling you thank
27:44
you and if people want to reach out to you can
27:45
I find you in LinkedIn Yeah, okay. Great. We'll
27:50
connect that to okay. Well, thank you for this
27:52
conversation is everything that I hope for for
27:54
sure. I just appreciate your authenticity and
27:57
you're just opening us to share a lot of what
27:59
was going on, you know, in your life. It's huge.
28:01
So thank you for being that kind of leader and
28:03
for still showing up that same fire 20 some years
28:06
later. I love it so much. He's six and still
28:10
going. It's a long life. So live it. Absolutely.
28:16
So for those of you listening, if this episode
28:18
is something you enjoyed, please share it and
28:21
tag a woman who's helped you rise. Let's keep
28:23
building the community of bold women who show
28:25
up for each other, not just in words, but in
28:28
actions. So please follow loud and lifted on
28:30
Instagram, subscribe wherever you get podcasts.
28:33
And if you've got a story of a woman you feel
28:34
like we should feature DM me, we're just getting
28:37
started. Until next time, stay loud.