Latest / Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation / Episode #44-Scott McCutcheon

Transcript

Episode #44-Scott McCutcheon · Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to this episode of Turn Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, good morning, Don.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta tell you, it's rainy here in Kentucky this morning, but I am not complaining because we got uh so dry here that uh we were welcoming uh some uh precipitation and some moisture to the ground because it was a dust bowl last time I cut.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: What's it like on your side of the island?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was very humid, but uh beautiful morning.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um I am excited, uh beyond excited.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this this weekend, actually tomorrow, I'm gonna be seeing uh one of my children and Saturday that we'll all be together at a wedding.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and Scott, I want to tell you, um, you don't normally see me in a collar, I'm normally in a t-shirt.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and for those of you on YouTube, uh you wouldn't notice, but or you would notice, but the others wouldn't.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I got dressed up for you.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: I just felt like it was it was something that I needed to do.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Don, I'm so glad that you called out your frumpiness uh from the past.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I'm glad you put a college shirt on for us today.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I I can be very frumpy.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: For for 30 some odd years, I had to put a suit and tie on.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm like, yeah, I don't need to do that anymore.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm done with that.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's all we're doing.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: This this wedding, I told my wife, I said, I'm not putting a tie on.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: I might put a jacket on, but I'm not putting a tie on.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I keep telling people I'm flying to Pahonix, also known as Phoenix, uh, this Sunday for business.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, you know something?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: I just don't want to take my sport coat, but I really don't want to wear a tie either, because it's gonna be 106 degrees.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I think uh for the sake of uh overheating, I'm just gonna take my tie with me and keep it loose on my neck.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: But well, without further ado, uh we have a special guest on today, Scott McCutcheon.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Scott, we're so excited for you to join us on this podcast.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we are all TAPS dads.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: You've heard us talk on this podcast about TAPS Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors that reaches out to military loss.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: And all of us on this podcast, the three of us, have lost uh sons uh while serving in the military.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: So um, not a new occasion.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: We've had a lot of TAPS dads and tap's moms and tap spouses uh on here.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um but uh siblings too.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: And siblings, yes.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I thought this would be a good uh podcast um because we always talk about turning grief into growth.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna try to emphasize a lot of the growth experience today on this podcast.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um so Scott, uh, I met back in, I want to say it was probably May or thereabouts in uh 2021.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: So his son Sammy passed away April 29th of 21.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember how soon after you had gotten on one of the Tab's men's chats.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh we met each other either way in 2021.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I was probably six months out from David passing at that time.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: And uh just always thought, man, this is a really cool dude and love to get to know him better.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: And we have just kind of offline on one of my other your dad forever calls and uh things like that.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, Scott, welcome.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to share your story because it's your story to tell, and I want you to tell it, but uh welcome to the podcast.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, welcome.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you, uh, Greg, and thank you, Don.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's an honor to be here.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've enjoyed your podcasts.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've watched a number of them, and uh to be asked to you know to sit in this chair today is is truly an honor for me.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, uh my intent is is much like yours.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's to um, and I'm glad you said you wanted to focus, you know, on the growth piece, uh, because um, you know, I'm a hope kind of guy.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I didn't start that way, obviously.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, to me, you know, hope is something that maybe isn't always today, it's tomorrow, it's what you hope for, you know, as you move forward on your journeys.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and in that hope is where I find a lot of the growth.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's uh it's an extreme honor to be here um with you gentlemen, with your listeners.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so thank you.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I know that you had mentioned to me yesterday, you're like, I've never been on a podcast.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, guess what?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Don and I had never done a podcast before we started back in the summer.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: So we didn't know what the heck we were doing, and we still don't most uh most days, but that's okay.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: We just uh really try to keep these calls organic.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, Scott, tell us about uh April of 21, which is really kind of where your grief journey started.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Just kind of start from there and just kind of build up and and share with us a little bit.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, absolutely.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was um a very dark day uh in in my life and in my family's life.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um Sammy had um uh spent the last year of his service in hospitals in Kabul, Germany, and his home base, uh Joint Base Lewis McCord up in the Seattle area, and um uh from injuries he sustained in in battle um uh in Afghanistan.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um Sammy suffered terribly from PTSD um and was on a lot of medications and pain medications and whatnot in that last year.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: So when Sammy's service time was up, uh he did not want to reenlist, and he and his wife Brittany um and their newborn son Dawson moved to Wisconsin.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um it was like I said, it was a they were very beginnings were very dark.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um just prior to Sammy's passing, um, he had completed a three-month PTSD program and a three-month drug rehabilitation program at the VA in Wisconsin and the Milwaukee area, and um so when that was done, um I flew Sammy home to Cleveland and I was living in Buffalo at the time and drove home to Cleveland, and we spent three days together, and I I was so hopeful.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was the first time in uh two or three years that I had seen Sammy sober.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he had you know his eyes were clear, he was a little stoic, a little quiet, um, but very sober.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that gave me so much hope.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we drove around to uh you know all the ball fields, because Sammy was a was a big baseball guy in all the sports really, but um from a little kid through high school.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so we drove around all the places, you know, where he played as a kid and the neighborhood we grew up in.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted him to feel that sense of who Sammy used to be, you know, right?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, over those years of of drug use, he had kind of lost that part of himself.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so we parted ways after three days and he went back to Wisconsin and um and I went home very hopeful.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was about three weeks later that I got the call while I was at work that Sammy had had passed away of a drug overdose.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um so you know, the light switch just turned off and and things became very, very dark.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, even though I'd had some time, you know, to and understood that always potentially this could happen, um, it didn't prepare me for the day that it happened.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there was this whole aspect of um when you're talking about the light switch, um, I wrote that down, um, you know, kind of went off prior to that.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: The antithesis of that is you saw a spark in his eye.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's a lot of people that have dealt with addiction with children or any relationship where you get that hope because you see that spark again and that life again.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and just the the demoralizing aspect of what happens whenever, like you said, that light switch was turned off.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it was it was exactly that.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, instantly I just didn't know who I was.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I couldn't focus on work and I had a really you know very high responsibility kind of job with my career.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um you know, I was so fortunate my team took over and really picked up my pieces.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh and then but what what happened um just a few weeks after that was that Susie was in a had a had a bad accident and she she was flat on her back for about three months.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I just kind of had to take Sammy and put him up on the shelf and focus on Susie.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Ummy's mom.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um she met Sammy just uh year or two before he enlisted.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so but um after about three months, Susie healed and got back up and and you know started functioning again.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I just said to myself, I have to face this now, I have to address this now.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know how, but uh I'm going to, you know, it's time.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I sought out some professional counseling and and a beautiful gal right in my neighborhood went to see her for the first time, started telling her my story, and she took her business card, she flipped it over, and she wrote taps.org on the back of it.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And here I was I was sitting in front of a survivor.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she had lost her husband about 10 years earlier.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's kind of how I found taps.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't too long after before John Gaines reached out to me.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and John ultimately became my peer mentor.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that path I started taking one step at a time, and um, and it took a little bit of time, but I I liken it to that path, which was very, very dark, started to be lighted, illuminated, if you will.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I could start to see more.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And as I spent time with initially the men and the men survivors group, um, and met people just like me, just like you, um did the healing start.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and it's as you both know, it's a it's a long process, you know.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like, okay, I'm you know, five and a half years out.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh I am most certainly further down that road than I ever would have imagined that I'd be at five years.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um but as you know too, that grief jumps up and bites you in the butt sometimes.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the lessons that I've learned, you know, through people that I have associated myself with these last five and a half years is that um, you know, when I go down that rabbit hole, I don't have to stay there anymore.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um that that was a a concept that uh I just slowly learned.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um part of that came from because I also uh suffered from PTSD and um uh and I took I did the EMDR training and and that was incredibly helpful.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: It taught me to just be with that grief when it hits you, um and then let it go.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and and if I've done it once, I've done it a thousand times.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: But but but that act of practice, um, and you know, you it's it's all part of the growth piece, you know, that that you want to focus on today.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Scott, you you talk a lot, you've talked a lot about the darkness and the light, and you know, seeing that little bit of light that helped you find your path uh to healing.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you've uh you have uh talked about hope and how hope uh has played a really key key role in your uh healing.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I want to uh uh want to get into that more, but um you mentioned EMDR, which uh is a form of of um uh what's the word I'm looking for?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's like you know uh come on help me out, guys.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like therapy or something like that.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's a therapy, right?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and I know a lot of people who have experienced that and have received a lot of support and help.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Can you for our listeners describe what that is like?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like what what do you the process that you go through?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a um it's a I will say first of all, and and and I can only relate my experience with my therapist and who was just amazing, but it's um it's a repetition of conversation uh about tough questions.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you you put it out there, um and we did a lineage back from my childhood um through present day.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so they're very difficult conversations um about the things that haunt you.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and um and then the therapist will ask questions about that and uh kind of like the five wives with Toyota in the business world, uh, in a similar manner.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and it's through talking through these memories, these these pains.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and then almost a form of okay, put it out there, let's put that thought into something with a little lock box.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm a fly fisherman.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, okay, I'll take my little fish holder and my little you know wicker thing that I carry with me, and I'm gonna put a little lock on it.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna take those thoughts and I'm gonna put it in there, and because that's where they belong.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: They don't belong here, and they don't belong here.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and it it was, I want to say maybe a 12-week program that I did, and each week focused on not only the week prior, but the the new questions, the new memories that haunt you, and so on.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you just really worked through those.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I, you know, I'll say that, and maybe it's because I had such an amazing therapist that it was very difficult.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it had meaning and purpose at the end.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I truly felt like my PTSD was not going to control me any longer, and certainly not to the level that it did when I started that program.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Don, I'm glad you brought that up because I think that uh EMDR is becoming used a lot more.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: I know there's a lot of skeptical, skeptical people out there, and I've heard a lot of success stories.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've heard nothing but success stories.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And PTSD, for those of you who may not be familiar, it's post-traumatic stress disorder, uh, which can happen just from learning about your child's death.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is a uh you know, post-traumatic stress that's stressful.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: And Don, I think that needs qualifying too, in the fact that um I think we've done a very poor job in the past of using PTSD only for military people overseas and having PTSD when they come back.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: And we haven't used it for trauma, for first responders, police, ambulance drivers, whatever it might be, not to mention the trauma.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: I had PTSD after David died that I had to work through.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's a great call-out.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, and and just so you guys know, and and so for our listeners too, um the it's not everyone ex has a disorder.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, um it's just post-traumatic stress, is what we call it.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, they they put the disorder on there so that I think uh insurance companies, you know, have something that they can, you know, then say, okay, that's they're they're naming it this.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: But uh I could think of another four-letter word for it, but you know.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, Don, on that on that same vein of post-traumatic stress, there is also post-traumatic growth, and we don't hear a lot about that.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I I want to kind of merge just a little bit.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's that's what we're we are talking about here every every week.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: It is yep, that's exactly right.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the name of the podcast when you think about the growth aspect in there.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: We have this post-traumatic growth, and Scott, I know that uh you have a grandson, uh Dawson, and I I want you to just kind of share with our listeners about that relationship and uh what that has done for you.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I would love to.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you got a smile on your face as soon as I mention that.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's uh he's a very special uh young man and and and a legacy that um that uh you know that I'll have for the rest of my life through you know watching Dawson grow in the light of in the eyes of his father.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um first of all, he is an absolute spitting image of his father.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um I look at pictures of Sammy at that age, and I just see Dawson.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and it's not because I want to, it just does, right?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he carries uh many of the same mannerisms as his daddy did.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and and um for a 12-year-old boy, he's very well spoken.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he's not shy.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, can imagine coming to Cleveland to you know spend you know 10 days with the whole side of your family that you really don't see, and that's that's tough for a little 12-year-old kid.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: They even had to come up in flight in Midway that he was on his own for coming and going, and uh he got it just like that.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: So for our listeners that don't know, walk us back from the beginning because he just recently spent 10 days with you.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: But talk to us about the last time that you really saw him, yeah.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And how and how old was he at that time?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Six, seven?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he's uh almost seven, I want to say, or maybe had just turned seven.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: So when Sam passed in 2021, um, and it was still COVID, and um so the national cemetery where he's buried uh only allowed us uh 30 guests, and um which was terrible because we had to turn family away and and of course all Sammy's friends that he grew up with.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um we later rectified that after the service with a memorial for Sammy um and a fundraiser for Wounded Warriors project where we raised seven thousand dollars, and that came all from Sammy's buddies and his high school kids.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, it was it was great, but um, but we had invited Brittany and Dawson to Sammy's service.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: At first, Brittany declined, which I was disappointed.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but a few days later she she texted me back and said, Can is the invitation still open?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: I said absolutely.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: So so they came to Cleveland and um you know I hadn't seen Dawson in probably two years um at that time.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um so and they attended Sammy's service and and it was a beautiful service.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um got a you know, I was so glad that some folks were taking photos at the service uh because I certainly couldn't.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh one of my objectives at the service was that when it was com when it was finalizing, I wanted to take Dawson up to the table where Sammy was interned in a box and um and uh salute him.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so I was teaching him how to salute just prior to the service in the grass, and somebody snapped a beautiful photo that I will always love of that and shared it with me.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so we spent that day together and then they went back to Wisconsin.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it was another five plus years before I had gotten in front of him again, which was his just recent visit.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now we FaceTime, we text, we talk.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: His mom bought him a phone so that I didn't always have to keep bothering her.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um so, so, but when when when he got here, I was shocked at how tall he was.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: He was up to my shoulders already, uh, 12 years old, and and just had a big smile on his face, gave me the most loving hug, you know, and we told each other we loved each other, and you know, and uh in conversation, um he just he he I was just mesmerized at his mannerisms and because it brought back those memories of Sammy at that age.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Very kind, you know, just respectful, you know, and and and it was great.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and so over the course of the next uh 10 days, um uh I shared uh Dawson with my daughter and Sammy's brother and my ex-wife Diane, who own a home together.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it kind of stayed between their home in Cleveland and our home here with Susie and I.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then the family came out here a lot.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh it was just the most amazing time.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then I took him to the airport uh to depart back to Midway and then home to Wisconsin from there.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we just spent about an hour in a little restaurant in the airport just talking, and and just was so amazed at how how grown up he was for 12 years old, you know.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh I was very it made me very proud of Britney and her new husband.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she remarried, and that gentleman had uh has two boys.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh so Dauston instantly got two new brothers when they married, which is very cool.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome that you got that experience because I I know that oftentimes, and uh you know, we don't always uh grandparents as grandparents, um we can get disconnected from our grandchildren uh when you know their our child who is their parent uh dies.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know you know uh I can speak to that a little bit.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh but I I don't know, Greg, do you have any thoughts on that?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we had a guest on recently, Don, Tom Braden, and um he uh his uh son was an F-22 Raptor pilot and had uh children before he passed.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: And he talked about getting together, they get together in different you know cities each year, and they have a cousin's you know retreat, basically all of his grandkids and everything.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: But um they did that in Chicago this year.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you could just sense and see Tom's face light up whenever uh he talks about that.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: The same with yours, Scott.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the same for me, you know, when I have my grandson over, he lives about uh 20 miles away, and uh I get him about every other weekend.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: But what I would say to that is um there we're not naive in life, Don.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: We we know that um there are a lot of parents and grandparents that are estranged, whether it's uh it's just too hard uh to see them because it reminds me of my deceased child or whatever relationship it might have been, or the other sets of grandparents or parents don't allow them to visit or see them.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I've come across a lot of parents and grandparents that are estranged and it just breaks their heart.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: So for for that, um, we we see you and and we acknowledge that it's not always a happy ending uh for everybody.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Scott, look, this is just incredible.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like you um you gave Dawson a phone during this five years, is that correct, where you were able to FaceTime, or was that just recently?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I used to text his mom um a lot and say, can we set up a call with Dawson and and and whatnot?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think she got tired of it one day and just said, you know, I'm gonna buy a phone for Dawson and his brother.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: You talked to him directly, yeah.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so so so Brandy bought him uh brought the boys a phone and and then it was really nice because then I could just call them anytime and you know, but but you know, you're right about you know this, you know, it's a it's it's it's a terrible thing in our society.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's you know when when when death happens, um, and I certainly have met my share of men that Greg, like you say, you know, there's a disconnect and and sometimes they're irreparable.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and um and it's kind of like divorce.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it happens in divorce much the same way.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh it does.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: I uh I focused myself on maintaining a positive relationship with Brittany.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, from the time that she and Sammy divorced through today.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I think that effort, at least in our case, um, was part of the catalyst that opened that door for Dawson and I to have a grandfather, grandson, normal kind of relationship, if other than living, you know, six or seven hours away um in that phase time.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think that's that's the important part is that distance does not have to keep you apart, and especially in today's technology day and age.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: But Scott, I want to I want to commend and praise you on the intentionality aspect of that, because you didn't have to do that, you reached out.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's a word we don't use much in our vocabulary in 2026, and that's mirth.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, mirth does the heart good, laughter, you know, happiness.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: And to see you referencing Tom Braden before, to see the smile come on your face, the same for whenever, you know, my grandson, my daughter will go pick up my grandson whenever he comes in.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm always there waiting at the door, ready to give him a hug.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that's that is the growth in our journey.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's what keeps us charged, what keeps us moving forward.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we talked about the hope uh earlier.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: We talked about basically uh the light switch that went off uh for Sammy, but then I want to talk about the light switch that goes on in your grief journey.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a growth aspect.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, look, I I don't know what the future holds, neither do you.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: You might not have planned out the next time you and Doss are physically going to be together.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: But the intentionality is so powerful in moving forward in uh in healing in that way.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it is.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and this is something I think this stems back to um my my first marriage.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Diane and I were together for 24 years and we were married for 18 of those.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: But when, and sometimes as it happens, you know, you know, folks just grow apart.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we didn't argue.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: We we we made sure our children lived in a good Christian home and and were taught by example and and whatnot.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but way back all those years ago, um, we made a commitment to each other that we were going to um be as as normal as possible through divorce.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: We were not going to speak poorly of each other, we would remain friends and and those kind of things.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that really helped me do the same with uh with Brittany, because that's exactly what we did.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: We wanted to still maintain those good examples and and um and and to this day we're very good friends.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and in fact, Susie and Diane are very good friends, and and that's exactly how I want it.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way I feel like it should be.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: But that being said, uh all these here's with taps and and and the the hundreds and hundreds of Zoom calls that I'm on, like you said, Greg, um, there there is a part of that where people really struggle with that growth piece um and just don't have that, and I consider it a gift.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um don't have that gift.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it makes me sad.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I'm a hope kind of guy.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um I've turned into, I've become a hope kind of guy.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I feel like I don't have the right always to put that out, especially as I meet new men with with new losses and new families.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't have the right, but I have the desire.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I will always have a message of hope.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so um if somebody can pick up on that, maybe not at the time, but down the road and say, hey, you know, that guy's got hope, you know, and and he went through the same thing I did, um, you know, maybe that's in my future, right?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: So like I said, hope is the future.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Good really good points.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and I also want to just call out that you had to do a lot of work to make that divorce um pain as painless as possible.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm sure it was still painful, but um I can tell you from personal experience.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I am, you know, I've been through a divorce and it wasn't like that at all.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it, you know, it took some time before we were even able to speak to each other.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I know that you know there's their divorce is part of grief, I believe.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I definitely feel like that is uh grief that um it it can be oftentimes harder than uh than losing somebody uh that you love um because of all the different circumstances.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: However, um it it you know for those of you that are struggling uh with uh divorce, just know that there is hope.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just as Scott, you know, has been has we've been talking about here on this episode, uh, and uh there is a dark, you know, there's darkness, but uh just hold on because the light will will show.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um and you know, with all of that said, and I'm sure Greg, you probably have some more you want to add, but um but if you could be thinking about Scott, um just a nugget of wisdom that you would love for our listeners to um you know to leave our listeners with.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think um I think it'd be great.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh I'm grateful for everything you've shared so far.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead, Scott.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'll let you go first.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that I have to have the last word.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I do okay, sorry.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I I do have a nugget of my own I want to share.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: But go ahead, Scott.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: What's what's a pearl of great price that you've learned, a little nugget of wisdom to leave with our uh listeners.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, for me, it's a it's a journey, right?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's a journey that I have come to understand uh will always be part of my life, right?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you start at this point and you move down the road and you learn things, right?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: You pick up these nuggets.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then as you grow, you start to open up inside and become, even if it's just a small catalyst, um, but start to focus on helping others heal, you know, giving back.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um when I discovered that I had something to offer, and it took a while.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I was overcome at first with the sensation of how how important that was, that I can put something out there that maybe somebody could put in their pocket and pull it out someday and to use it.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think we have the responsibility, as you two gentlemen know all too well, to to help others, right?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and and your healing uh is uh is a very large part of that.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, for me, that's the hope piece, right?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I hope to be able to touch enough people in in my mission.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and Greg, I'm so proud of you for the things that you're doing.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I missed you, you know, I've missed you in the men's group, and and I thought to myself, wow, did he just drop out and change course or been here to you know reconnect and as we've done, um, and to see you doing some really amazing things and take it in a little different direction that has purpose and meaning.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, there that's the hope for me.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you saying that.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: I I definitely treasure that affirmation.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for me and Don, it's all about capacity, same for yourself, uh, as far as what you can handle and also different seasons of life that we do different things.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I want to leave us with my grandson was over this past weekend, and my daughter, who's just an incredible aunt to him, a lot of times will say, Okay, well, it's time to kind of settle down on a Saturday night, get in the shower, get ready for bed, let's watch a movie.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: And she'll put stuff like how to train your dragon or things that you know she thinks an eight-year-old would like.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of times, we've done this through the years, he's not very enthralled, or he'll fall asleep.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, she decides to put on Home Alone uh this past Saturday night.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it's you know, Home Alone was made 36 years ago in 1990, and he laughed so hard, just screaming, laughing.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: And we were all like looking at each other like, wow, that we had no idea that it would have this effect on him.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I'll tell you, it had an effect on me, not Thomas's reaction as much as old man Marley in there.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's very apropos for this podcast.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, old man Marley was estranged from his son.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: And he didn't get to see his granddaughter, but just from a distance, when he went to the church and listened to her sing in the choir.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Macaulay Coughlin's character in Home Alone encouraged him uh to reach out, you know, to his son.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: And he did it then.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: The last you know scene is basically them uh hugging out there on the sidewalk, uh, and then his granddaughter jumping up in his arms.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm choking up thinking about this.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's just a an old movie, but uh to think about the estrangement that is out there with people um and the intentionality, Scott, that you shared, whether it's through the divorce or whether it was through your grief journey with your grandson, it's never too late.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: And don't give up and keep being intentional along the way.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I I appreciate Scott so much you joining us today.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a treat.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, until next time.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, gentlemen, very much.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Scott.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: And don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time.