Latest / SisterSmart Leadership / 24: How to Develop the Skillset to Navigate Any Career Setback and Turn it Into Opportunity with Sally

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24: How to Develop the Skillset to Navigate Any Career Setback and Turn it Into Opportunity with Sally · SisterSmart Leadership

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  Careers don't always go the way we want them to.
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  Sometimes you have to restart your career because you had kids
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  or you moved to another country.
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  Maybe you've done everything right.
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  And that promotion you were looking for doesn't pan out.
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  Or you get laid off right on your way up the ladder.
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  A lot of people let these kinds of situations get them down.
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  But the truth is that it's common to face setbacks in your career.
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  You just don't always hear about it.
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  And it's easy to compare your insides with other people's outsides.
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  I can't wait for you to meet our resilient client, Sally, who has faced
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  these kinds of challenges and come out on top, whether you're facing a setback
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  right now, or want to be prepared for the time when the inevitable happens.
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  I know you'll find inspiration in her story.
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  I'm Jill Avey, a career success coach, and this is Sister Smart Leadership, the
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  show that explores how women can rise from director to vice president and beyond
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  by fully leaning into their feminine energy as their biggest advantage.
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  Let's get you one step closer to the recognition and promotion you deserve.
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  I'm super excited to introduce you to Sally.
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  One of our sister smart clients, who is the lead of customer
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  service and operations for a large social media company.
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  So Sally welcome.
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  I'm so glad you're here.
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  Thank you, Jill.
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  And I really appreciate this opportunity for me to chat with you and share my
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  experience to help more women leadership.
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  That's so great.
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  So one of the things that I've been so impressed with is your journey.
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  You were in sustainability in China, and you worked for very large
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  brands like PVH and REI and Apple and had quite a great career there.
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  And then you fell in love and came to the U.
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  S.
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  and you stayed in sustainability for a while here, and then you got into tech.
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  And that's when we met and when you joined the sisters in leadership program.
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  So I would love to hear a little bit more about what was your situation when
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  you joined the program and what were the obstacles that you were facing?
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  Yeah, so, as Jill said, I came to us in 2017.
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  And at that time and I really want to shift my career to other
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  area because I was in China doing sustainability for more than 10 years.
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  Tell me about what it was like for you to get used to this new
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  culture and doing business in the US after moving here from China.
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  Yeah, when I move here I kind of like start from zero for my career because,
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  and I was doing sustainability in China.
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  I want to shift my career and I, I didn't study in the US, so I
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  didn't have any degree or diploma in U.S., I don't have any connection.
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  So, for me, the hardest part is to build your career from zero.
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  Mm-Hmm.
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  So that's very hard.
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  And I was also struggle for a few months.
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  So, and for me, the things I did was to really think about to find the
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  connection from my previous company in China to see any opportunity
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  for me to explore something in us and what I want to do in us.
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  And which part I want to do.
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  The first thing I said, I told myself, okay, and then maybe it's
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  good opportunity for me to shift to other industry or a field.
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  So, I found my passion on customer support or customer success, and then found my
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  previous connections when I was in China.
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  I just realized when I was in REI joined some industry association
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  and make me know somebody in U.S.
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  So I start to reach out to them to see if any opportunity for me to join.
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  I think for immigrant woman to to start in us.
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  It's where do you start?
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  How to start?
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  So I suggest don't care about what kind of opportunity, start from something.
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  And from there, you can start to think strategically.
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  What do you want to do in the future?
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  Use that opportunity and the entry level for you to start any career in us.
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  So, after I found my connections, I was lucky , they're a company try
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  to hire a customer success manager.
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  So, I got the interview and then I got this job start from very
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  small nonprofit organization and then later that organization.
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  And have opportunity to create another tech startup company.
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  So I shift from that company to a tech startup company.
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  And, uh, also, I think for a lot of immigrant women that will think,
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  like, my English is not good.
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  I have accents, how I'm going to do.
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  So I think for you, and it should be confidence.
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  And English, just a communication tool and how do you do this job?
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  Well, it's the things you need to think about.
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  So, and I'm the only.
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  Chinese in that company, my, my colleague, they're all Americans.
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  So, it's actually good for me to learn the pure American company culture.
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  And because when I was in China, even I work for REI, if I work for Apple,
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  PBH, my colleagues, they're Chinese and my leader, they, they're Americans.
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  And only when I communicate or work with my leader, I use English.
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  But for a normal work or communication, my, my language was Chinese.
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  So, for this situation, after I moved to the US, I have to force
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  myself treat English as my first language, no matter it's good or not.
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  Even if you have accents, that's fine because that's just the communication
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  tool and your goal is to do your job well.
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  And so.
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  That's why after, like, half a year, I feel much better in my company and because
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  you don't want to be alone in the company.
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  You want to join this family and to be part of this organization.
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  So you have to put yourself in that position, not separate
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  yourself from that situation.
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  So, after I came to US, I want to shift my career to do something I
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  really interest and I found out I have passion customer success and support.
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  So I got a really good opportunity to start a tech company and it's a beginning
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  and I joined the company very well.
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  The company also give me opportunity to become a leader and a promoted as director
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  and the leading, different teams and really increase my leadership experience
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  and also gain a lot of tech knowledge and after a few years, I really want to be and
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  live up my career level to become a senior director in the, because my, my goal
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  is become an executive leader, like VP.
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  So, I try to think how to be promoted, so, what I did is I just
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  mentioned that during the performance review with my manager, and, uh,
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  unfortunately, she rejected it.
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  She said I was not ready.
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  So, because at that time I was in director level already, more than, it's about
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  three years, so it's kind of like I want to move forward, and then she rejected
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  me, I was really confused and lost, because I thought I'm qualified, I'm
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  ready, and because I've done a lot of things, but from her side, I'm not ready.
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  So at that time, I get lost, I was thinking, What should I do?
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  And also, she also didn't give me a very clear guidance after I asked,
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  so I'm thinking maybe I need help.
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  So that's why I found Jill with her great SisterSmart program on LinkedIn
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  because Jill, it's helping in a lot of woman become a leader, executive
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  leader, and she has a great program.
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  That's how I think, oh, that's I really want.
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  I really need somebody to tell me what to do.
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  Give me some guide because.
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  And at this level, if you want to go up, it's kind of like a little bit difficult,
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  and I, I don't have that resource.
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  I don't have that experience.
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  So that's why.
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  And it's blocked me to move forward.
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  And also thinking about as I did not have any experience in U.S.
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  Because most my experience in China, so I really need somebody who in the US.
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  career experience to give me suggestions and advice.
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  So that's why I found Jill And joined the program because my goal is to
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  through this program to really.
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  Gain my leadership experience, found my gap.
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  And to get advice, how can be achieve my goal to be promote as
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  a senior director and what's a path for me from director to VP.
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  So that's why I think the biggest challenge I have it's I didn't know
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  what to do and I didn't have resource.
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  I need somebody to help me.
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  I remember that.
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  And you really overcame that.
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  You were, you were in line to be promoted.
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  Tell me a little bit more about how that process went for you.
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  Yeah, so, I think this program give me a lot of great advice and,
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  uh, make me understand and, uh, what's the gap for me to be a V.
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  P.
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  in the future and what's a gap for me to be promoted.
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  So that's why I work with Jill for almost one year to improve my leadership skills
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  and especially when one of the things blocked me to become the senior director,
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  it's a strategic planning and to be honest at the beginning, I think I did strategic
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  planning before and, uh, I asked Jill, I think ahead and I always think ahead
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  before other people to think to create the project and Jill point out, like,
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  strategic planning is different than.
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  Think ahead, you should know the difference.
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  And also through this program and I also understand besides that become a leader.
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  You should also have other skills.
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  For example executive presence as a leader.
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  And also a communication skill of collaboration and motivation
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  and very important things is.
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  you need to found mentor to explore and build and explore your network and to
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  make more influence in the connections.
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  And also promotion is not like a one day things and you have to have
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  a plan and also managing up with your manager is also very important.
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  That's the thing I didn't realize.
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  And my mistake is, I think I'm ready.
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  I tell my manager.
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  Hey, I want to be promoted.
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  But the correct way is and discuss with your manager.
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  Hey, and if I want to be promoted and what should I do and what's the plan?
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  What's the timeline from there?
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  Create a clear plan and every month, every week discuss with your manager
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  and to to follow up and to make sure you guys align on that plan.
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  So that's the things I also did wrong.
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  So, through this program, I understand that.
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  So, through that, I start to create a plan.
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  And I start to talk with my manager about this plan and also ask
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  her to give me a clear deadline.
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  And unfortunately, and my company has a lot of changes my, my manager,
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  because of like, a healthy condition.
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  So, she quit from her role.
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  And I have another new manager, so the challenge is to build a relationship with
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  a new manager and a communicates the goal for me to be promoted in a line on that.
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  So, unfortunately, and, uh, even I do a lot of things and I follow
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  the plan, but the work for me is to rebuild the relationship to realign
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  with this new manager and also she have a different standard on
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  Yeah.
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  how when you should be promoted.
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  What's a and how that looks like.
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  So I have to work with her again.
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  So, unfortunately, and, uh, as a big as originally with my previous manager, I was
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  promised to be promoted in March of 2023, because of this change, they paused and
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  because they want to build a more strong case for me, so they postponed to August.
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  Unfortunately, I didn't wait until August.
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  I got laid off, but one thing I realized, I was too focused on
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  working on my project, managing up, but I didn't build a very strong
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  relationship for my network to find my mentor and the sponsors in my company.
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  So, for example, if you want to really to build a strong case, for promotion you
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  have to let other people, especially the executive leadership team know what you're
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  doing and why you should be promoted and let them know and your, your team's
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  goal and you should align with their goals and to show off in front of them.
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  So that's the things I think I lack off and after I review, like, why I
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  didn't get promoted in March last year.
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  So that's make me more think about.
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  And, uh, that's why I mentioned one of the course and a Jill build it.
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  It's about explore your network, found your mentor and the sponsorship.
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  Especially with the executive leadership team very important, especially for women.
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  You want to become from director to V.
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  P.
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  this kind of executive leader level.
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  That's the thing you need to do.
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  I was really impressed with the strategy that you set out for your networking and
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  how many senior leaders you got to know.
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  It was, it was really neat to see all that shift for you and change.
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  Yeah, so after that, I start to think about the strategy and how, how I'm going
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  to collaborate with other team later and how I'm going to build a relationship
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  with our executive leadership.
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  So, I create my team goal and I share with each leader of department,
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  like, a VP of that department and to really seek out and this is our team
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  goal and this is opportunity for us.
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  This is a gap between our teams collaboration.
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  This is opportunity and what's your team's goal and how can
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  we do better for next year?
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  And what's our company goal?
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  So, think about this questions and then, and when I talk to this
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  leader, I schedule, like, a monthly meeting with them to make sure
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  we're aligned and track our goals.
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  And also I set up, like, bi-monthly or quarterly meeting with our
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  executive teams, for example, CSO, CTO, COO, to really align with them
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  to learn their priority and learn their, their goal and concern to make
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  sure my goal align with their goal.
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  And also they can give me some suggestions, like, what's missing.
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  So that's really helpful for for me to understand their priority and concern
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  and to adjust my goal, so make sure my goal align with their goals and also to
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  share and to, to learn their vision and the view about my team so and also about
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  this company, because they can provide more information and other people.
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  So, make you have a more information we can share with the team.
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  Think about your strategy and your vision, so that's a very interesting
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  process for me to build a connection.
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  And also, and that's also give you opportunities to make influence
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  and relationship with executive team, and so they know what
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  are you doing in this company?
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  What are you doing for your team?
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  What are you doing for this department?
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  Yeah, yeah, so you had everything aligned and then your company went through a big
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  restructuring, executives were let go.
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  And then you were let go, during a tech layoff that happened in 2023.
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  And so, this is the way careers go.
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  They're just not always a linear path.
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  And most people have squiggly careers, we call it.
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  And these squiggly paths are not always easy to navigate.
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  And not always fun.
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  And you've been through a couple of disappointments.
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  What would you recommend for other people who are maybe
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  going through the same thing?
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  Yeah, so I think last year.
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  It's kind of like a interesting and a challenge year for me
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  and and I try to stay positive.
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  Stay positive very important.
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  And I think about I didn't get promoted.
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  And and then I get lay off.
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  The first thing I think, same as other people, why me?
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  Yeah.
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  And, I think it's okay to ask this questions, but you have
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  to think about the environment.
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  It's not because of you, it's actually because of the economy environment
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  and because because of the company, so you didn't do anything wrong.
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  And also, I was a little bit angry because I'm one of the family member
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  Yeah,
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  in this company for a long time.
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  I was here when the company created.
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  So that's why.
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  And it's very common for me to think why me?
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  And I was a little bit mad because you think what contribution you do to the
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  company, and then the treatment you get, you think, oh, it's not fair, but, and
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  it's very common to think like that.
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  And it's, it's also common to be sad, even you have emotion to show, like, a
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  crying or something, but I think for me, I just be mad and sad just for 1 day.
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  And after the 1st day, I tell, I told myself.
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  Maybe this is opportunity for me to explore my new career or venture and
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  opportunity and I start to become excited.
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  hmm.
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  And stop thinking about negative thing.
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  I start to think about what I want to do and what I want to try and what's my goal.
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  So I give myself a week to really think about those questions to really map
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  out and based on my previous 16 years experience and what I did well, what's not
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  go well, what I really want to do for my next job and which industry I really want
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  and also think about, what do you want to improve for yourself for your next job?
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  So, after I think this question, I actually did a mapping
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  and then create a document.
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  I put all this kind of, like, deeper analysis for your career and
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  think about what's your interest?
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  What's more important for you?
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  So, turns out I figured out myself 1st.
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  I still want to be a people manager a leader.
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  And I want to go to a real tech company, like, a bigger tech company
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  and, uh, turns out I want to shift my career from sustainability
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  industry to pure tech because.
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  I want to learn more about tech, I want to really understand customer support
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  and success in real tech company.
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  and also I want to found a job can have opportunity for me to
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  keep growing as a people leader.
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  To have a more opportunity for collaboration, those kind of thing.
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  And also, I want to find a company really care about the things you're
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  doing my previous company still start up.
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  So, driving business revenue is their top priority.
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  Oh, that's why support role in that company not super important.
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  So I want to sound a role in a company.
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  They really care about support or a customers or a customer success.
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  So, give you more opportunity.
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  So, after I figure out, I have a target, I start to think about what's the next step.
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  And a good things I have Jill as my career coach and, uh, talk to her to
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  get her advice and she introduced me to some, career coach on job searching.
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  So, and of course, you need to figure out your resume and your job searching
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  strategy, update your LinkedIn and also think about your story because you need
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  to prepare the interview on storytelling.
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  So I followed that path and, uh, after a few months, I find that my current job and
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  it's in pure tech and also I'm doing still doing customer support and service and.
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  And I have a more opportunity because this company is bigger and the technology it's
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  mature and it give me more opportunity for collaboration and operation.
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  And also this company care about customer service a lot because that's
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  their kind of like a business driven.
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  And I achieved my goal for job searching and also, more importantly, and I found
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  this company have a more opportunity, not only for your career, but also
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  for other things like benefits.
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  So look back, like, I didn't lose a lot and a layoff, it's not a happy
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  thing, but I think using layoff to explore your career opportunity, use
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  layoff to lift up your career level.
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  I think that's the right thing for me to do at that time.
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  Yeah,
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  Yeah, yeah, and I'm hearing some of the positive intelligence work that we do
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  where you were looking for the gift in this situation, even though it was really
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  disappointing to get laid off right when you were about to get promoted.
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  But you really have turned it into a huge gift and a huge opportunity for yourself.
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  And I love it when people can turn what seems like a downswing in their
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  career to really be a step up for them.
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  And you've really done that.
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  So I'm so impressed with that.
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  You also mentioned the executive presence and the communication work.
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  Is there anything else that, that you enjoyed or found particularly
• 24:30
  helpful from the program?
• 24:31
  Yeah, few things, the first one is to know about yourself and at the beginning,
• 24:39
  actually, I remember before this program starts and we have to do some assessment
• 24:45
  for ourself to identify our personality and also our strengths and weakness.
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  And that's the thing to really make me learn more about myself, learn
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  my stress, for example, and I was really surprised actually strategic
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  planning is about my strengths.
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  I think I need to dig into my potential, and also communication,
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  collaboration, and implementation, and I'm kind of like action driven person.
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  If I confirm something, I will do it immediately.
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  So, I think that's the thing.
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  And through understands your, your personality, your interests, your strength
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  and your weakness, you can think about the strategy, how you use that for
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  your job how to maximum your potential and how to improve your weakness.
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  So I think that's pretty important.
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  I think it's very interesting.
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  And to, to, to learn myself at the beginning before everything starts.
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  I think another thing is about the retreat to every year.
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  You have a retreat for yourself.
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  Give yourself a time to reveal yourself.
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  And I think about, yes, yes, strategy retreats and think about
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  what's important for you career what's important, healthy or family.
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  And I think for a woman leader, it's harder than men because, you know, women
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  naturally take more responsibility but you have to balance what's more important
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  for you to think about good strategy for you and to think about a good goal for
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  you if you're a career driven person, and you have to focus more on this and
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  how do you balance others if you're healthy, you know, And family person,
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  but you still want to be a leader and then you have to think about how to
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  balance this because anyway, you have to sacrifice something to achieve your goal.
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  So I think that's also very interesting.
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  And, uh, for me, very important to learn.
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  Another thing I think is to learn how men thinking and what's the difference
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  between men and a woman leader.
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  They're thinking.
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  So I think this is also in very interest for me to learn because sometimes I
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  think women should think like a man and because I think a lot of, like,
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  sometimes block women to move forward, it's because you don't think like the
• 27:33
  men, because men never think like that.
• 27:36
  I think you should think like a man can help you move forward.
• 27:40
  So it's very interesting for me to learn through this program
• 27:44
  and also other other things.
• 27:46
  I think, like, for example, like leading a meeting.
• 27:50
  It's part of communication, like, effective communication.
• 27:54
  That's also important for me.
• 27:56
  So there's a lot of very great courses in this program.
• 28:02
  And I also loved like group discussion and group like mentor because through this
• 28:09
  program I find my mentor who is also in customer success and and now she's a VP.
• 28:16
  So we keep weekly chats as a peer mentor
• 28:22
  She
• 28:22
  was your accountability partner,
• 28:24
  Right.
• 28:25
  Yes.
• 28:25
  So I think this is really important.
• 28:28
  And also, I think it's really helpful because we have a similar
• 28:31
  background, similar industry, we share our challenges, we give each
• 28:38
  other advice, and also give each other encouragements, and we drive motivation.
• 28:45
  So I think this is really helpful.
• 28:47
  That's one of the biggest things for me to, you know, To get from this
• 28:52
  program to know a lot of people, a lot of women leaders have the same
• 28:57
  struggle as me, and have the same goal with me, and we hold each other's
• 29:01
  hands to move forward together.
• 29:03
  That's so nice.
• 29:04
  I want to circle back to something that you said that I think was really
• 29:07
  interesting about how sometimes we need to think like a man and
• 29:11
  then other times we need to lean more into our feminine strengths.
• 29:14
  Can you say more about bringing both sides together for us and how, how you've
• 29:18
  used your feminine strengths as well?
• 29:20
  I think for, feminine strengths, I think for women, women
• 29:25
  always think comprehensively.
• 29:28
  And also women can really, dig into the detailed things.
• 29:34
  And I think women have, a lot of, like, a great, like, implementation,
• 29:38
  operation things, and I think that's really good, we should keep, and, but
• 29:45
  when I say think like men, it's, because of women, I think sometimes we're too
• 29:51
  hesitant, and for an opportunity, we have to think, like, should I get it,
• 29:57
  am I qualified, and is that good for me?
• 30:01
  Think too much.
• 30:02
  I think for men, they will never think like that when the good
• 30:06
  opportunity give it to them they're just very confident that I can do it
• 30:13
  Yeah.
• 30:14
  with no doubt, like, for example, for for VP position woman will think, oh,
• 30:20
  this qualification needs maybe 20 years.
• 30:24
  I'm not qualified that because I don't have 20 years, but men,
• 30:29
  they won't think like that.
• 30:30
  They will say, I'm qualified.
• 30:32
  No matter how I think I'm qualified.
• 30:34
  I will apply for it.
• 30:36
  They're like, Oh, close enough.
• 30:37
  I'm going for it, and we'll often hold ourselves back and wait for the right
• 30:41
  time, wait for somebody to ask us,
• 30:44
  yeah.
• 30:44
  And also when, like a big moments to show your voice and men won't think
• 30:51
  like, is that question good or not?
• 30:54
  Should I just ask at that time?
• 30:57
  And women might think like that.
• 31:00
  And then just share what they want to share and to show
• 31:06
  that I want to show my voice.
• 31:09
  So I think that's the thing I think for as a woman, and we should also
• 31:16
  be confident to share your voice
• 31:18
  and in the public, especially in front of the executive leader to to
• 31:23
  be confident to share your feedback and also your your suggestions.
• 31:29
  And even your opinion or your suggestion, it's against the leader,
• 31:35
  but you should share in a good way.
• 31:37
  So I think that's why I suggest women should think like men sometimes.
• 31:44
  Yeah, we can use them as inspiration.
• 31:45
  Right.
• 31:47
  but I generally, I think women have a lot of advantage to be a leader because
• 31:52
  our personality, our emotion and I think our natural is to be responsible.
• 32:01
  So, woman, always very responsible for anything.
• 32:07
  We take care of the family, we take care of the kids now, and the men also do that.
• 32:12
  It's just a woman natural will think more about that.
• 32:15
  So, but I think for fighting for your opportunity, fighting for your benefit,
• 32:21
  fighting for your fighting for other things, we should think like men.
• 32:25
  I agree.
• 32:26
  I think bringing both the masculine and feminine energy together is
• 32:30
  really the way that we can make the most out of our own strengths and
• 32:34
  personalities like you're talking about.
• 32:36
  So it's always good to have that combination.
• 32:39
  And I feel like the middle ground is usually where the most power
• 32:43
  is for us rather than trying to be on one side or the other.
• 32:48
  So when that comes together it can be really magical.
• 32:51
  So I always like to ask people this at the end of every conversation, who
• 32:56
  is a woman that you look up to as a leader that you might share with us?
• 33:00
  actually have two.
• 33:01
  The first is Sherry Sonderberger, former Facebook COO.
• 33:07
  And another one is also from Facebook.
• 33:10
  And her name is Julie draw, who is the extra VP of product development.
• 33:18
  Hmm.
• 33:18
  So, the reason why, because I really like their books.
• 33:23
  And then Shirley, her book, Lean In, really inspire me when I was in China,
• 33:29
  start to read her book and in front of her book, she, she teach me how to think
• 33:35
  like a man because she share a lot of story to, to inspire women to think like
• 33:44
  the men and fight for your opportunities to, to really grab your opportunities.
• 33:54
  And for Julie, her book, How to Make a Manager, inspire you become
• 33:59
  a leader, because in her book, and the very important chapters teach
• 34:05
  you, manager and leader are very different thing, and how to be a
• 34:10
  leader, and not only just a manager.
• 34:13
  So, this two book really inspire me from when I was just a IC, I want to be a
• 34:21
  people manager, and I read Julie's book, and when I become a leader, I think more,
• 34:28
  and Shelly's book really inspire me how to lift your up, and how to think like a man.
• 34:36
  So I think this two women leader, give me a lot of examples, and encourage me.
• 34:42
  That's so great.
• 34:43
  And we can link to those books in the show notes for people, because it's
• 34:46
  wonderful to have a resource like that, that you can read for yourself.
• 34:49
  So thank you so much, Sally, for being here with us today.
• 34:53
  I loved hearing your story.
• 34:54
  I don't always get to hear all these details as we're
• 34:56
  going through it ourselves.
• 34:58
  And I know that our listeners would love to hear your story
• 35:00
  about your squiggly career and how you've really come out on top.
• 35:05
  So, if you have found Sally story inspiring or helpful, please let us know
• 35:10
  in the comments, which part you liked.
• 35:12
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• 35:16
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• 35:18
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• 35:21
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• 35:23
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• 35:24
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• 35:27
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• 35:30
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• 35:39
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• 35:53
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• 36:05
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