Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / Archive Episode: Kato Kaelin, Key Witness in O.J. Simpson Trial & America's Most Infamous "Houseguest"

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Archive Episode: Kato Kaelin, Key Witness in O.J. Simpson Trial & America's Most Infamous "Houseguest" · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

• 0:00
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  Speaker 1: That's B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash P-O-D. Start your journey to
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  Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. Welcome back to Misunderstood.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, Rachel Yucatel. Well, first I want to
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: say happy Labor Day. Today we are doing an encore
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: of one of our favorite episodes ever, Cato Kaelin. So
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: we picked him because he was one of the first
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: people I interviewed when I started this podcast, and I
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: thought we might have been a little ahead of our time.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: People hadn't really been listening yet, and I don't want
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: anyone to miss this episode because it's that good. He
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: grabbed headlines for being the most famous house guest during
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: the O.J. Simpson trial, but he has proven to be
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: so much more. His infectious personality and perseverance has made
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Kato an entertainment mainstay. He opens up about his part
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: in the infamous trial that changed the face of television
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: and tells us how it has impacted his life to
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: this day. He shares stories of his early days in LA,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: being a struggling actor, and his loving family who supported
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: him through all of the scandal. It's such a great listen.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: I'm hoping that you take this time to catch up
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: on older episodes if you've heard this one already. And
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: if not, I think you're really going to enjoy this.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Think about where you were during the O.J. Simpson trial
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: and imagine what it would be like to be sort
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: of a no-name actor that's just thrust in the spotlight
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: like our next guest, Kato Kaelin. Okay, welcome everybody back
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: to Misunderstood. I'm Rachel. You could tell my next guest
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: really needs no introduction. Kato Kaelin. He is the world's
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: most famous house guest who became a household name during
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: the O.J. Simpson trial when he was the star witness
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: for the prosecution. Today, we are here to talk about
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: that with him, but more importantly, to talk about the
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: person behind the headlines. So, Kato, thank you so much
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: for joining me. I'm so happy you're here.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Well, Rachel, you're gorgeous. Thanks for having me. And I'm
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: so happy to say that I, I do own my
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: own couch.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, what's funny. It's amazing. So, but my
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: biggest question that I have for you is, do you
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: have a guest house yet that somebody else lives in?
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: That is the goal I have. But I do have,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: I have like probably three months more of my payments
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: and I own my own house. So how dumb would
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: that be for me to actually live in the guest
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: house and not in the main house? There we go. Gayna,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: what are you doing? Move into the main house.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: But one day you have to have a guest in
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: the guest house.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I 100%. I travel so often and that's what everybody
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: pretty much says. That's like, people will offer me to
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: stay at their house or their guest house constantly. Please
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: be our guest house for the weekend. And I thought, boy,
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: this might be a really good job. It's just to
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: go to places and live in their homes. Because people
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: just want me on their phone machines. And now people
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: have this company called Cameo. And now it's like all
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: these things I've thought of that other people became billionaires.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: I said, how great would that be, the crash? And
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: by the way, I've been invited this week. All these
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: people always ask me to be in their weddings. I
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: don't know them. But for some reason, people come up
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: to me and they feel like they know me. And
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: maybe they feel the same way about you. I just,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: they all feel like they know me, which of course
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: they don't, but they, but they're always smiling and they laugh.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: So it's a good sign. Right.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Well, so, but you're so beloved actually. I mean, I
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: feel like you did get, you had a very hard
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: time during the trial and we'll get into that in
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: a minute, but I feel like your personality really stands
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: out and people can't help but love you. So what
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: do you think is the most misunderstood thing about Cato Kaelin?
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: The thing that people think they know?
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I think part of it was back then, the
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: court of public opinion already made their verdict on me
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: of being an airhead, someone that didn't work, a pariah,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: an assassin's target. I had all these things going against me.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: And I said, oh my God, I was... And I
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: started thinking about my life and go, I was the
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: high school quarterback. I was the prom king. And I
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: never had people not like me. And I was like,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: I never felt it before. And it made me very introverted.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: And I just... It never, ever stopped working, always hustling.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: So I think when the media portrays you as a lie,
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: that really affects you. But I think it affected my
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: late mom more than it affected me and my family
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: because they knew who I was. And I'm just, it
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: was this guy from Wisconsin that came out from my
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: dream to go to California to get in acting. And
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: so I've always stuck true to those goals. Even today,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: I hustle with so many shows and I sold the
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: show and all my dreams are coming true. It took forever,
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: but- I think you've got to understand that people, sometimes
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: people just don't want to like you, or they just
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: want to, especially in LA, they just don't want people
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: to achieve, or especially achieve greatness, and I just want
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: to achieve partial greatness. And that's the hardest part, Rachel,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: is that people make judgments, and they shouldn't, you know.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: Well, they make judgments based on the narrative that you're
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: given by the media or by the circumstance. And that
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  Speaker 1: doesn't actually have anything to do with who you are
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: and where you come from. So I actually want to
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: get into that a little bit with you. Tell people
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: where you came from. You said you're from Wisconsin. What
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: did you want to do when you grew up? Like,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: how did you get to LA?
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Well, I basically was, I was pretty decent in sports
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: and I played baseball and I got a partial scholarship
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: to Wisconsin, Eau Claire, the big baseball. And I was
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: pretty decent. So I said, you know what, I want
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: to move to California and go to this school called
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Cal State Fullerton. And that was the number one baseball school.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: So my buddy and I drove out. left my, my family.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: And I just said, I'm going to California. And they said,
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: you'll be back in three months. Anyways, we'll get to
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: Cal state Fullerton. And I try out, I went out
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: for the team and these guys were gigantic. And I didn't, Rachel,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: I didn't get whiskers till I was 38 years old.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: So I wasn't developed yet, but I was really wiry.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: So I could throw pretty quick, but I said, I,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: I can't make this team. I'm not going to make it.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: So I started getting into plays and hosting events and
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: And I said, back at Wisconsin, Eau Claire, I had
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: my own TV show called Kato and Friends. I said,
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: you know what? I could do this. I could probably
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: get a show. And my very first audition ever when
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: I moved to LA was a Coke commercial, and I
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: got it. And I said, this is kind of easy. Unfortunately,
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: when I did the commercial, I shot it, got my
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: SAG card, but they cut me out of the commercial.
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  Speaker 2: And then I got another one and another one. Three
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: consecutive commercials I got, which back then would have been like, $ 300, 000.
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  Speaker 2: I got cut out of all three. I said, this
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: is a tough business, but I stuck with it. Then
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: I said, you know what? I'm just going to pursue
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: this goal when I start getting bit parts. I've said
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: this on other podcasts and other shows. The week Before
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: the murders happened, I went to an academy for acting,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: but the week before the murders happened, I tested for
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: a film. And my friend produced a film. He gave
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: me the script three months in advance. And this is
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: a buddy of mine. He worked for New Line Cinema.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: So I had a life before. I did auditions all
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: the time. I went to film premieres, but no one
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  Speaker 2: knew Cato yet. But I did everything, did red carpets.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: So I tested for a film called Dumb and Dumber.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: And it was my buddy, Aaron Meyerson, who produced the film.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: And I was reading for the Jeff Daniels Road. My
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: hair was long. If you remember Jeff Daniels, what's his name? Lloyd.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: It was Harry and Lloyd. So anyways, Rick Montgomery casted it,
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: and I read for other parts. And I said, oh,
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: my God, I'm getting really close to my goal. I'm
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: getting really good castings. And the murder happened. My whole
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: life was shut down. I sort of became a caricature
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  Speaker 2: after I testified.
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: But before you became famous for being Kato Kaelin, you
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: were a struggling actor then. But was this based on
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: something you really wanted to do? You're like, I really
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: want to be an actor. Or you just had this personality,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: which you still have now, which is so great. And
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: people really liked you and you're great looking. I mean,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I Googled you. Are you 64 years old?
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: You look like you're 40. I mean, you look amazing.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: How do you do that?
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: That's a whole nother podcast on anti-aging, but still.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't have the money, obviously. I can't
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: do nothing. I've never done any of that. Basically, even
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: back in the day, in 1989 and 90. And by
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: the way, when I was doing that, I was also
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: hosting car shows. So I've always been a host and making,
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: you know, and that was a Screen Actors Guild job
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: because I got it through my old agent, Sheila Manning.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: And I, so I start doing all these things, but
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: I always, I've never, never not had a juice machine.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: And I really, it's amazing. I did it. I did
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: everything before became trends. I used to eat rice cakes.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: They used to be 25 cents. That's the truth. And
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: I said, Oh, these are pretty good with salt and
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: the sesame seeds. But I, I ate all these things
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: and I, and I, maybe it's fortunate if I drink anything,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: I'm not a big drinker because when I get a
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: drink or two in me, I get an incredible migraine.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: So I never, I never really had that in my body.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: And it just was always fun. Everybody goes, get drunk.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: You're drunk, aren't you? I go, no, it's just the
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: way I am. So it's, it's funny that I never
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: did all the things when I went to college that
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: everybody was doing. And I'm the hindsight. I'm glad I didn't,
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: but I, so, but that's, I appreciate you saying that.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: And, um, Well, you had such boyish looks and you
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: still do, is the point. So, okay. But you didn't
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: necessarily want to be this big actor or you found
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: that when you got to L.A.? That you could be
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: in acting parts and it could be really fun. I mean,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: did you fall in love with it there?
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, completely. I mean, like I said, I got
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: my first audition. I was like, well, this is kind
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: of easy. But then again, I did all kinds of
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: side jobs from a limo driver to waiter to bartender
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: to singing telegrams. I think people don't understand. It's a struggle,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: but I never really complained because the whole time I
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: was doing it, I was having fun. And I knew
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: it was.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 11:41
  Speaker 5: It's Dune ADL.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: Dune ADL. There's an accent on the E.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: Do you mean.
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dundale Cars.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Lyft?
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: Please. You're going past Kimmage?
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: No.
• 11:56
  Speaker 5: Dundale Cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: I just knew from the friends that I have still
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: in my life, I knew something wonderful. I didn't know
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: what it was going to be. And this is the
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: God's honest truth. Do you know, like you... I'm not
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: getting religious, but I think there's like a blueprint in
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: everybody's life. And God said, you're going to be famous,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: but it's going to be backwards. So I became famous
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: and I understand it for the wrong reasons, for a
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: terrible thing with two beautiful young people losing their lives. And,
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: you know, everything went backwards. I became famous for something
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: horrendous that I'm aware of. And I said, no matter what,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going to always bring light to anything I do.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: And I feel like I always have brought it light.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: I've always paid it forward. just because my late parents were,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: I never saw my mom and dad when they fought.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: I never saw them not kiss. So I never saw
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: like fighting in my life growing up in Wisconsin. I
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: always saw love. And I know it sounds really corny,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: but it's so true. And it's like, I was always
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: raised around love.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's so great. So how did you meet Nicole
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Brown Simpson?
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Okay. Oh, so I had a casting business with a
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: guy who was on General Hospital. Great, great looking guy,
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: great actor. And he was my dear friend. His name
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: was Grant Kramer. And Grant was a stud. He was
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: just really cool guy. And he was a General Hospital.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: He always did celebrity events. So we became buddies just
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: from auditioning and seeing each other. We became really dear friends.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: And He said he has a great idea for a
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: business that cast movies for the extras. So we cast
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: movies for extras, did really well. Because some movies had
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: 200 people, we get a percentage of everybody we had.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: I'd be the wrangler. And a lot of times I'd
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: get one day roles to keep my SAG card up.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: And we put ourselves in little parts. And it was
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: a great business. So we did well enough that we
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: went to Aspen. He goes, everybody goes to Aspen for
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: the New Year's. I said, oh, great. We drove to Aspen.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: He saw Nicole. They knew each other from a skiing event,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: a celebrity ski event. And they started, you know, seeing
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: each other, you know, just, she was divorced and I
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: was third wheel. So anytime we did something, it was
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: all three of us. And then I met at that time,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: I met an actress named Catherine Oxenberg and then she
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: and I hit it off at that time. And then
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: we became a group for those five or six days.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: We were there for the new years. And then that,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: when we went back to LA, everybody stayed in touch.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: So, and then how did you become a house guest
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: to Nicole?
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Oh, I was living in Hermosa Beach, Rachel. And when
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: I was in Hermosa, the drive from LA to Hermosa was,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: it took an hour and a half sometimes just to
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: go 15 miles. I saw Nicole used to throw little
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: get togethers at her house and she had a guest
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: house at her house on Gretna Green, not Bundy, but
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: on Gretna Green. I went to, um, I said, who's
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: living in this house, in this back house? And she says, nobody.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: And I already knew I was making her laugh. We
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: became friends and her kids loved me. And she said,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: you can have it, rent it. So I rented it.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: And that was it. Then later, she began dating OJ again.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: And then we all became friends.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Got it. And so what was your experience with OJ?
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: When I was living at Gretna Green, it was... My
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: tax bracket basically was donuts and theirs was Danish. I
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: didn't hang out. I didn't really do anything. I was
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: never the babysitter. But if they said, Kato, would you
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: watch the kids if we go out? I said, if
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: I was available, I would love to. And so my
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: relationship with them was fine. I never saw, Rachel, I
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: never saw that. I saw the mean side kind of once,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: maybe twice. of him, but obviously there was a history.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't meet until 93, and I know there was
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: domestic abuse in 89, I believe. So I didn't know
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: them at that time.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: And did she tell you about that at all in
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: conversations when you guys became friends? Did she warn you
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: about that at all?
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: She didn't say it until OJ did something terrible, and
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: then she would say that he's a mean guy. And
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: he has this side that he's very manipulative. And I
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: saw it later on. And then there was a 911
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: call where I wasn't there. But I knew at that
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: moment that this is a bad dude and they shouldn't
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: be together. Because I'll tell you, when there were little arguments, Rachel,
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: I went back to what my parents would do, just
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: give them the hug and the kiss. I would say,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: why don't you guys, you guys got the most incredible life.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: You got beautiful kids. You're wealthy, beautiful homes. What is
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: the problem? But in hindsight, I think the problem was
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: that OJ wanted his cake and wanted another cake and
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: another piece and a piece. And I think, my opinion,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: I think that's what the thing was. And I think
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: at one point, Nicole, she didn't say this to me,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: but I could feel it, was it's me or nobody else.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: You can't have your choice.
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• 20:03
  Speaker 1: But so you didn't have any experience with him personally
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: where he was awful to you or, I mean, what
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: were your thoughts of him going into kind of the
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: end of days with him? You became his house guest, yeah?
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. So living with Nicole for seven months, she
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: then left her house and she got a place on
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Bundy and asked me to move in, but it wasn't
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: a guest house. And I didn't feel right of moving
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: into the house. And she and I were never romantic,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: definitely not. great friends. And I said, I didn't want
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: to do that. And I said, I'll find somewhere else.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: And they were seeing each other at that time. And
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: OJ just said, you can live in a bungalow. I've
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: got four of them just live in one of the bungalows,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: three or four of them until you find a place.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: And that's how that all started. Right.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: So now just take us up to the, like the
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: 24 hours leading up to the murders you had, you,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: you spent some time with OJ that night, correct?
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So OJ, I used to do a lot of running.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I did a few of these marathons and I would
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: run 10 to 15 miles. And he came by my
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: door after I ran and I played basketball. And he
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: asked for, he came to my door, which he'd never
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: really done before. It's his house where he can do
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: what he wants. But he came and said, if I
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: could break, it was about breaking a hundred dollar bill.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: If I had any money, if I could break, I said, no,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I said, but I have 40, here's $ 40. And he goes, oh,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: that's cool. And then he said, I'm going to go
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: and get something to eat. And I was starving. And
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I said, oh, cool. Can I go? And I knew
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: when I said that, it was sort of like I
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: stepped on a line.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: Overstepped your bounds. Yeah. Right. And I'm the guy that's going,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: I probably shouldn't have asked that because, Rachel, it seemed
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: like there was a two-minute pause. And then he said, OK.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: So I knew I was already I felt really uncomfortable
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: that I invited myself. And then he was just driving.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I had no idea he was going to McDonald's or anything.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: I just got in the car and he went to
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: a McDonald's. And it became a biggie because there was
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: one closer to his house and the police. They said,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: why did you go to this one? To tell you
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: the truth, I didn't even know where the McDonald's was.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: I didn't know there was two of them. I never
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: went there. So. We go to McDonald's and I got
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: chicken and he got, I think, a Big Mac and
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: a quarter pounder. But I just remember that he ate
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: it in one bite or so. And I just waited
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: because I thought we were going to eat it.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: It's Dunaidial.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 22:46
  Speaker 5: Dunaidial. There's an accent on the E.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: Do you mean.
• 22:50
  Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Done Deal Cars.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Lift, please.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: You're going past Kimmage? Oh, Kimmage.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: No.
• 22:57
  Speaker 5: Done Deal Cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: It is in his kitchen. And next thing you know,
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: I got out of the car, walked to his door
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: by his house to eat in the kitchen, and he
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: was standing at his door of the car. He never
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: even came back. So I was about 20 feet away.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: And then I was like, oh, he doesn't want me
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: to hang out anymore. And I just went to my room. So,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: That was that's the right.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: And that was before the murders took place, apparently, allegedly.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: OK.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: And then you saw him after getting into his car,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: going to the airport.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: When he left town.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I kept thinking I was hearing a noise,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: a ringing and a ringing. And it was coming. My
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: house is separate. but there's an intercom that I think the,
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: the limo driver was there, kept ringing and ringing. I
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: didn't know what that was. So I went out and
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: I said, uh, and in the meantime, I'm on the
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: phone with a girl saying, come on over. And she's saying,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: come to my place. And we're deciding who's going to
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: come over to where, whose place she was my friend. And, um,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: I said, do we have an earthquake? Because the picture
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: of my wall moved, I had no windows. It was
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: just a wall and a picture like the one behind
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: just moved. I said, I think we had an earthquake.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: And she said, no. And then I, uh, hung up.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: I was going to call her back and I went
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: outside and it was Alan Park, the limo driver. And
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: I asked him if we had an earthquake, I let
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: him in and I saw luggage out there for OJ.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: So I imagine that he was just put his stuff
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: out there waiting to go to Chicago. And, uh, but
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: there was one bag that was 25 feet away at
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: the foot of a car, uh, by the trunk. And, uh,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: when OJ came out, I started loading the car with
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: the limo driver and I ran to get the, I said,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: I'll get that one. He says, no, don't get it.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Don't touch it. And that's the bag that's never been found. Yeah.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: To this day, it's the infamous bag that has never
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: been found. So, and in your opinion, do you think
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: that there was evidence in that bag?
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: In my opinion? Yes. Because everything's sort of hindsight. You don't,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: you don't think a murder took place in hindsight. And
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: then I go, why wouldn't he want me to touch
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: that bag? What is, where's, where is he? whatever happened
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: to that bag. So yeah, I mean, I have dreams
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: about certain scenarios that always play out in my mind,
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: constantly play out of how things could have been different,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: sort of like sliding doors. What if I didn't go
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: to McDonald's? Just all these things on timelines. And it
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: really plays heavy on my mind. Right, right.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: So what was his demeanor like when you saw him
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: getting into the limo and you spent that little bit
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: of time with him? Was he fine?
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it seemed like sort of rushed, very silent, not quiet,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: no mood. It was just sort of like, you know, conversational.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: There was nothing. You couldn't read if he just committed
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: a double homicide. You would never pick that up. I
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: don't know what his ride was like in the limo,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: but it was a very short time because they left
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: immediately after the bags were packed. Right.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: So then you... Spend your evening doing whatever you're doing.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: And when when was it that you finally heard that
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: there had been two murders?
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: It had to be about five in the morning or so.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: And and it was I always preface this by saying
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: that the night, Rachel, was really a foggy June gloom
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: in L.A. And I just had trouble of everything just
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: seemed something was out of place. I can't explain it.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: But it just seemed out of place. And then there
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: was a knocking at my door with four guys at
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: my door. I didn't even ask who they were. I
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: just opened my door and said, hey. It was four
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: in the morning. They said, hi, can we come in?
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: I let my guests off. They said, we're LAPD detectives.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: And they immediately asked me who I was. And then
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: what did I wear yesterday? And could we see your shoes?
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: And the entire time that's going on, when I'm first groggy,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not, it's sort of a dream state. And I
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: just said, did OJ's plane crash? Because the only thing
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: I could think of that something happened, that they're at
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: this house because something happened with a plane crash. And
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: I didn't even think about my shoes, the clothes. I said, yeah,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: here's everything. So it made no sense to me.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Right, right. And you must have been startled because it's
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: so early in the morning and they're waking you up
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: out of a dead sleep.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, completely.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: So at what point did you finally learn that Nicole
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: and Ron had been killed?
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: When OJ's other daughter from the first marriage, Arnelle, She
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: was in the other bungalow and the police let us
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: into the main house. And we were on a chair
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: and a couch separated from each other. And then one
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: of the detectives went in to make a phone call
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: and it was Tom Lang. And Tom Lang didn't want
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: the press to tell the parents that their daughter has
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: been killed. So I overheard it, Tom Lang on the
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: phone of saying that their daughter has been killed.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: And what were your thoughts? Like what was going through
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: your head?
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I was, I was wondering, I still sort of the
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: dream state, unbelievable that happened. And I was just thinking
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: what I was wondering, how could it have happened? How
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: did it happen? Who did it? And the police obviously
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: don't give out anything. They don't, they've got their little
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: system of how they're going to run a case because
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: anybody could have done it. And I was just, Arnell
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: was crying and It was just, it blew us both away. Like,
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: you've got to be kidding me. And I, one of
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: the things I remember is the police took me to
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: the station. And when they let me out, the detectives said, Oh,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: watch out for the blood. And I looked down, there
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: were blood droplets on the floor. And I always thought, boy,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: that's a, I think detectives do certain things to see
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: if like, if someone knew there was blood or anything that,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: but I did see it. And I said, Oh my God.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: And then I start going, why is there blood here?
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: And then, everybody found out later on about, uh, DNA, DNA.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: That was the case that brought what DNA was. Right. Right.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: So immediately in your mind, did you think that OJ
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: had something to do with it?
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Uh, not immediately because I thought he was in Chicago
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: and I didn't know, uh, like time, uh, timelines of anything.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: So I was thinking, uh, uh, that someone's got to
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: tell OJ. And then the police did their, you know,
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: of calling him in Chicago and, uh, how he had
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: cuts on his hand. And then the suspicion start going,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: this something's not right, but I still wasn't convinced. I'm like,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: could this, could he be telling the truth? Did he
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: throw a glass and cut his finger? And yeah, it
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: was sort of, weighing on both sides. Like, could this
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: guy actually murder the mother at her house where their
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: kids are there? Right. Right.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: And, and you were friends with her. So were you,
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: was there some part of you that was now grieving
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: and upset and wanting to go over to the house
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: and see what had happened and speak to her kids?
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: I know that they were a part of your life
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: for a while.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I was at the police station, I think
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: for like 10 hours or so. I went back after
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: that were released. I went back to where I lived
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: and I was so uncomfortable because everybody started visiting of
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: taking sides. And I was like, then OJ said, well, Cato,
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: you know where I was. You and I were in
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: the kitchen. And then I just was like, no, no,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: I wasn't. And I thought he was trying to make
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: me lie, set up an alibi. And then I moved
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: out sort of immediately. And then I started becoming a
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: little suspicious of going, this isn't right. Why is he saying,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: why is he saying something that wasn't true? And he
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: knows it wasn't true. Right.
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: So you, you decided to move out of the bungalow
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: that you were staying in?
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Moved out and moved in with some buddies of mine. And, um, uh,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: that was, uh, a few days later than, uh, the
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: famous Bronco chase happened. And, um, uh, And he was
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: driving with Al Cowlings was the driver. Yeah.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: And what were your thoughts when you saw that? I mean,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: that was pretty crazy. I don't know how anyone could.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Have missed that. My thought was that, you know, they
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: said that OG's got a gut, he's going to kill himself.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: My opinion was at that time, I said, this guy
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: loves to be adulated by people. This guy is no
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: way will kill himself because he loves attention and he
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: will never, never damage himself. He knows how to play
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: an audience. He knows how to get pity. And I
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: think at that time we all saw people on the freeways,
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: their signs, they knew, he knew how to play, you know,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: the emotions of people. Right.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Now, you have an opinion, I'm assuming, one way or
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: the other, about whether or not he's guilty, correct?
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I've stated that. My opinion, completely guilty. Yeah.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: I think most people think that now, and regardless of
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: what I think, nothing will bring back two lives. And
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: I think he's got his set fans that think he's innocent.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: He's got his own Twitter account with people that think
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: he's the greatest. And those people are adamant. They're just
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: going to stay that way. I have no contact. I
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: have no contact with anybody because Rachel, at one point
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: I just said, I, by the way, if I had
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: conversations with somebody, it'd be fine. I just haven't gone
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: out to, I just want everybody's life to go on.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: I met with Kim Goldman. I didn't know Ron Goldman,
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: but I met Fred Goldman, the father, and I met
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Kim and I did a few events with Kim and
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: a few TV shows. And she's wonderful. The family's wonderful.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: And to this, she'll never forget the pain that she
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: goes through every day in the family. Right. Yeah.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, that kind of grieving is so awful. And
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: somebody being in the wrong place at the wrong time
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: is just unbelievable.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: And the same for the Brown family and the sisters.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: And I know Denise... They used to go out a lot,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Denise with OJ, and I know that she's always said
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: that OJ is the killer and she's been adamant about it.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: She knew him very well, much better than I did.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: And you're right about wrong place, wrong time. And I
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: don't want to do a promotion, I think, but because
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: of wrong place, wrong time, I wrote something called wrong place,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: wrong time and just sold it. Because I'm not the
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: only one that's been thrust into something. There's many cases
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: of people. I mean, true crime is the number one
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: show everywhere. Everybody wants true crime. And crime is so,
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: it's just, it's everywhere. So I became sort of a
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: poster boy for that.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: It's Dune ADL.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: Dune ADL. There's an accent on the E.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: Do you mean?
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dune Deal cars.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: Lyft?
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: Lyft? please. You're going past Kimmage.
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: No.
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: Done deal cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: I've talked with people that have gone through similar situations
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: on a show and it's cathartic and it just is
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: such a release.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: And so talk to me about what it was like
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: to be in that trial. I mean, you were one
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: of the star witnesses. You created the timeline for where
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: OJ was. What was that like to go from being
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: you in sort of the private life to all of
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: a sudden being the biggest celebrity, so to speak, in
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: the world? Everybody wanted a piece of you, good or bad.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: So tell me what that was like.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know it at the time. I just
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: remember that I went in there as Kato Kaelin. And
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: when I came out, everybody was screaming my name. And
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: I just said, the media is so powerful. I mean,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: everybody screamed my name and I was recognizable. And, you know,
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: from being invited to Clinton's dinner at the white house
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: to all these, these things. And I thought to myself,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: I know people are going to hate me. I, and I,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: and I totally understand why they would hate me, but
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: I never would hate someone for what they became because
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: it's just not me. So I wanted people to know
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: that I know, I know I didn't, I just, I
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: didn't ask for any of this. It just kind of happened.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: And people start inviting me and doing things. And I
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: wanted to be an actor. And, um, it didn't, it
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: helped me out, you know, it gave me a radio show,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: but it didn't help me. I, like I said, any
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: audition I got, it was just, I could feel that
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: they just wanted to meet me. There was never anything serious,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: but I just, whatever, like I said, it was a blueprint.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: And I just became, uh, this guy that became very famous,
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: you know, overnight. Right.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Um, and so many people from that trial became famous overnight.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, people, lawyers, I believe got television shows. I
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: remember Greta Van Thestrand and I remember, you know, all
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: these different people became famous for that trial, right?
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Well, not only that, they started, I think four different
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: networks started because of that from court TV to MSNBC to, um,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: there's two others, but beast of a burden of proof, uh,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: with Greta and then they, uh, with Roger Cossack, um,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, the list goes on. Dan Abrams, everything, every
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: court thing you see going on from the Depp trial
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: to the Alec Baldwin trial coming up to anything going on,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: all is because of the OJ trial. And I always said,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: you know, crime obviously does pay because everybody got a
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: network deal or got a starting to network and they're
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: still running today. And it's a fascination. I think people
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: love seeing anybody in court because they go, Oh, my
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: life's okay. I'm not going to understand. I think people
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: relate to that, Rachel, because it's makes them feel better
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: about their life.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Sure. Well, what do you think when you watch these
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: other trials that you just mentioned, like the Johnny Depp
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: trial or even Gwyneth Paltrow more recently, like when you
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: see that with the, with the cameras in the courtroom,
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: what do you think about the people on trial?
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Uh, I sort of get it. I know how they
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: can work it. I know how you can work a
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: jury now. The first time I was ever in a
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: courtroom in my life was the trial. I never even
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: had a parking ticket, nothing. I had never been in
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: a courthouse. So I start seeing of how you can
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: manipulate a jury and how you can make them like you.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: And I saw it, especially during the Amber Heard trial.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: I didn't see the jury, but I could see from
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: reaction of Johnny Depp that they were liking him a
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: lot more. And you could just kind of feel it.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: There's a presence. I don't like that person. And I
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: could tell in the trial I was involved with, because
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: I saw the jury, I could see these people love OJ.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: For the verdict, you already felt.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Completely. You just saw they like this guy and you'd
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: even wave. So that and I think. Depp's an actor.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: She's an actor. They're playing a part, basically. Because you
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: are playing a part. You're going to try to make
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: everybody love you. And Gwyneth Paltrow just played it cool
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: when she said she's going to sue me for a dollar.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: It's sort of like a win-win for her because they're
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: saying she's not in it for the money. She just
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: wants to clear her name. And, you know, it's always
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: a chance to go in with the jury of how
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: they're going to like you or not. But I think
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: you've got... When you have a good lawyer, they let
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: you know how to play it.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: Right, right. I wanted to ask you what your thoughts
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: were when they brought the glove into the trial. The glove?
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'll tell you what, I had my own lawyer,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: which they told me to hire a lawyer. I didn't
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: know why because I was just this witness, but they said,
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: get a lawyer. I had Bill Janago, and he's passed away,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: but he was so smart. Every lawyer says, never ask
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: a question unless you know the answer. I think it's
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: pretty basic law 101. I think when they brought up
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: the gloves and they didn't have them try on gloves before,
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: and they're not going to fit, And Johnny Cochran knew
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: how to talk to the jury of the glove don't fit.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: You got to quit. He talked in a lingo that
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: they would get. And that became a catchphrase. You just
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: saw the domination of the dream team of how good
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: they were. And then how DNA was, you know, 1994
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: or 5, it was the first with DNA coming out.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: And back then, DNA to me meant dude needs apartment.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: There's nowhere to go. No, I'm kidding, Rachel. so when
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Barry Sheck who I think was the genius of the
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: trial he just explained it to the jury when the
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: prosecution couldn't explain it and he just said it was
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: all tainted and I think that sort of was what
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: really swayed the jury.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Of Well, that's why I asked, because I thought that
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: was such an incredible part, you know, as a turning
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: point for the trial. But also, I mean, it also
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: seemed like anyone could make that glove not fit. It's
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: been sitting there for years. It's soaked in whatever water, blood,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: whatever it is. And then you have this big guy's
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: hand going in like this. I mean, I don't necessarily
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: know that, you know, he could have made it fit
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: or he could have made it not fit.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: I agree with you on that. I don't know all
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: the truth to them saying it on all the other
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: shows that were out there on the documentary that won
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: an Oscar for ESPN, the Ryan Murphy show that won
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: eight Emmys. And they all said that he was taking
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: medications and salt on purpose to bloat. So, you know, they...
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Trying it out. Everybody's got that. They got the Bronco image.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: They've got the glove image. They got don't if you
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: glove don't fit, don't quit. I mean, it's got all
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: these things that the trial had, all these catchphrases and
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: certain moments that are ingrained in people's brains. Yeah. So.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: So at the end of the trial, the jury goes
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: out for four hours or something and comes back with
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: a verdict. Do you think that O.J. and his team
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: were expecting the verdict they got?
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: I think everybody but Robert Kardashian, because that image of him,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: of not believing it, you could see his face. Another
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: iconic image when they said, Arendelle, she makes a mistake
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: on his name to find him not guilty. And they
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: have that shot of him. And I think he was
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: the one that said, I can't believe this guy got
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: away with it.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Right, right. And where were you when you heard the news?
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: I was sitting next to a woman named Barbara Walters. And, uh,
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: the iconic Barbara Walters. And I, I just whispered, I said,
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: I think the jury made a huge mistake. Wow.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: And did she say something to you?
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: What were her thoughts? I, she agreed. She agreed. And, uh,
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: And through that, I, we had a friendship up until
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: she had just passed away. And, and along with Larry
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: King and all these people that were all part of
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: it and now their life, their legacy, you know, goes on,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: but it's, it's amazing. In hindsight, you kind of look
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: at life. It's like, wow, I feel like it just
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: was like yesterday. And, you know, talking to you, it's like,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: it brings everything back good or bad. It's like, I
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: can't believe it's going to be on 30 years coming up.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: And it's like, are you kidding me? So it's sort
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: of like, It's just, it's so fast. As you know,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: time goes by so fast. And I just, if I
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: could ask you a question on that, I think you
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: were maligned also. I mean, you're a wonderful person, obviously.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: And you dealt, everybody deals in a certain way. I
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: dealt because I had great family and friends. I don't
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: know how you and media started picking on you when
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: you went through scandals and how you handle things.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Well, it's similar to what you're talking about or what
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about in the past, too, is that,
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: you know, I went from being someone who maybe wasn't
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: necessarily famous, but I was, you know, a big deal
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: in my own life.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: I thought that I was getting along just fine. And
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: then to one day being thrust into the spotlight for
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: something that I didn't want to be part of. And
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: quite frankly, it was someone else's scandal that I just
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: I really happened to be in the passenger seat of
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: that car when it went over the cliff. And, yes,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: I had responsibility in that, but not the bigger part
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: of the responsibility that had to do with, you know,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: 15 other women and a whole history of things going on.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: So I became the villain. And to be a girl who,
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: you know, was, you know, somewhat young. I mean, I
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: was in my early 30s or whatever. And, you know,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: to all of a sudden have the press narrate who
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: you are.
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Watch it, listen to it. You can't get away from
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: it because it was the biggest story in the world,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: not just like in my hometown. It was in the world.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: And then have people give an opinion on you. And,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: you know, I would hear quotes from people that had
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: never met me or had come across my path maybe once,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: but saying, oh yeah, I know Rachel, you could tell.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: Let me tell you about Rachel. And it was so hurtful.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: And people didn't think of me as a person. And
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: at the end of the night, I had to go
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: to sleep I had to turn out the lights and
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: have my head on the pillow and think about this
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: and hear the things that people said about me. And
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: it was awful, you know, and I lost my family support,
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: my friends. No one was around. I had to hire
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: lawyers to like kind of protect me, but they didn't
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: know me. And it was a really awful thing to
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: go through. And people think, oh, you know, it's 13
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: years ago or whatever it is. 14 years ago. No,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: it still affects my life today. I mean, you know,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: I have a daughter who's 10. I try and get
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: her into a.
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 44:38
  Speaker 5: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with.
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: They have more cars for more dealerships than, like, anywhere else.
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: It's Dune-A-D-L.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: Dune-A-D-L. There's an accent on the E.
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: Do you mean.
• 44:54
  Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dune-A-D-L cars.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: Lyft?
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Please.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: You're going past Kimmage.
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: No.
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: Done deal cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: Cool.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: And then you have people that are like, I don't
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: want this woman here. Or I go out on a...
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: I'm single. I go out on a date with somebody
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: and they, you know, are like, oh, well... this is
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: going to be an issue introducing you to my kids.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: I'm like, what issue? What is it? What are you
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: talking about? This is 14 years ago. And you don't
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: know anyone that's ever had an affair with someone. I mean,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: why is this a big deal?
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: So to be like the biggest villain and monster in
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: a story that was bigger than me was really horrible.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: And to this day it's affected me and my life
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: remains Rachel, you could tell comma Tiger Woods mistress. I mean,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: it just does. And I can't get away from that.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: And I try my best to reinvent myself in all
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: sorts of ways. And I've gotten over it, but other
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: people haven't. So it's very hard for me to personally
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: get over it, too.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: I agree. I think it can relate very much to
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: how the court of public opinion works. And it doesn't end.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: It takes time. And when you know yourself, it's fine.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: I'm fine with it because I can joke about my
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: life if they want to make fun of me. you know,
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: what can you do? But isn't it amazing for both
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: of us and how many people want to be part
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: of it? They'll just, they'll go on and they'll say, Oh,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: I got an OJ story. Or, Oh, I knew, and
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: then it probably is for you a story. It's like,
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: why do you want to be associated? Right. Exactly. Everybody's
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: got a story. So. Exactly.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting what you say. Everybody wants to be involved.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: So everybody has an opinion. Everybody has something to say
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: where they think they're, you know, an expert on the situation, but,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: And only I'm an expert on the situation I went
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: through just like you. And it's really hard, but also
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: it's hard when people approach you, like they know you,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, it's,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: it's hard because you have to approach every single person
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: as an individual.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: Right. And.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: And I almost have to turn people one person at
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: a time. And they're like, oh, I spent time with her.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: So now I like her. I know her. But I've
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: become very closed off. I'm more of a recluse than
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: anything else because I don't trust people. I don't really
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: like people because I've been treated really badly. And I
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: love that you say like now you can joke about it.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: I do the same thing. Like I can joke about it.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: I laugh about it. But inside when I hear what
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: people are saying, it's not fun for me. I'm like,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: this guy's an idiot. This person's an idiot. They don't
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: know what they're talking about. They don't know what it's like.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: And it's really hard to have those conversations with people
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: that don't know what it's like when the media creates
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: a narration of a, of who you are and creates
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: a caricature of who you are. And then the public
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: feeds on that. And it's like a back and forth
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: and you become just, you're a shell of yourself, you know?
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: So that's been really hard for me.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, 100%. But then you obviously have done very well.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: And I do well. And I think it's all because
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: of you know who you are as this person. And
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: it's like, okay, you know what? Fine. Let's take it on.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: And so that's kind of what's happening. And my outlook
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: is great. I really think that when people... If you know,
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: sometimes people I've done some speeches at colleges and I've
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: done some, you know, other people have asked me opinion
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: on things. And I really look at life this way
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: and it helps out with everything. It's sort of like you.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: You've got this semester at college. Life is so short.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: It's like that semester. It's going to be so much fun.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: You meet all these new people. And before you know it,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: you graduate. It's over. So I just look at everything.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: It's like it's my semester at college. I'm just going
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: to have fun. I mean, I'm going to get things done,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: but I'm going to do it because it's going to
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: it's going to end.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: But it's interesting because people ask me if I have
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: any regrets or if that time in my life I
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: wish never happened. And I truly believe that you have
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: to have gone through things like that to kind of
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: get out of it. I mean, I'm proud of who
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: I became. I'm proud of how strong I am. I
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: don't need anyone to get me through situations. And people
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: can say anything they want, and it will not affect me.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: And I watch people crumble in the smallest of situations.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: I feel like I can handle anything. How did it
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: affect you?
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: I'm identical to you. I can handle anything. I can't
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: handle anything. I've been through abuse. I've been to people
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: that wanted to fight. I've been through people spitting, putting
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: stuff in my hair. I've been through it all with
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: a a person that always loved people and always give
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: the benefit of the doubt to anybody. If someone says
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: something bad about someone, I'm not the person that speaks
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: bad about someone. I can take it on. And I
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: just think that's kind of why I think success is
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: happening at a very late age for me. And I continue.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: My goals are the same. When I moved here at 21,
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: the goals are, hey, I got to be this person.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: And it's never ending. And I'm telling you, every day
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: I'm happy. You know, have laugh and obviously have down days. But,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: you know, I really appreciate life.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Right. So talk to me about your life now and
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: what happened after. You're married now, yes?
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Just got married. Just got married. Yeah, it's just great.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: And it's a friend of mine through the wedding at
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: his house. And it's a guy from Milwaukee named David Zucker,
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: who I grew up with loving airplane, naked gun movies
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: with OJ was in them. And it's amazing too, because
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: during my speech at David's house, we had a lot
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: of people. I said, David, thanks for not inviting Norberg.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: And that was... so i i it's so funny because
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: david has stories about og obviously also and um i
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: have a very very uh brilliant uh milwaukee connection wisconsin
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: and we got married at his house basically and um
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: so uh she's a lot younger than me which is
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: is fine and she keeps me very young and um So,
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: and Chinese, which I love. And it's the first time
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: at a wedding we threw rice and she actually picks
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: it up and steamed it. No, folks, please. Rachel, where
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: are we going with this?
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. But she wasn't anybody famous, right?
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: No, no. She's from Beijing. But I got a real
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: quick story. I was set up with her through, I
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: was traveling in a show, and it was called Wizard World.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: It was the world's largest comic con. I was the
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: emcee for four years, traveling the world, all the major
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: stages of convention centers from Chicago, Philadelphia. Anyways, a friend
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: of mine, an investor, I'll make it quick, said, oh,
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: this girl's moving to California. She wants friends to hang
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: out with. So he set me up on a WeChat app.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: We start talking. We hit it off. And on our
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: first date, she goes, oh, in China, she went to
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: school of language, so she speaks English too. And she goes, oh,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: in China, there's a very, your name, they have a
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: very famous show that's popular. It's called American Crime Story
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: with this guy named OJ. And you got the same
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: name as that Cato guy. And I said, no, that's me.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: And she just lost it. And she couldn't believe it.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: But the actor played me. She's like, no, the actor
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: played me and explained to her. And she just, the
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: whole night, she couldn't believe it.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: It blew her mind. Oh, my gosh.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: It blew her mind. So anyways, yeah, we ended up
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: dating for three years and hit it off. So we
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: just did the marriage. Good.
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you fell in love.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good thing. Honey, where are you?
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I have a couple of questions that people
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: had written in. Is that okay that I go and
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: give you some of these questions?
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: So the Kardashians, they may not have been making many
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: headlines back in the days when you were friends with
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: Nicole Brown Simpson, but the OJ trial thrust that family
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: into the spotlight. What do you think of their fame today?
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: Boy, I'll tell you, it's amazing because I'll bring up
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: the Ryan Murphy show, American Crime Story. In that series,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: when it came out, I think five or seven years
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: ago around there, they put them in the show so
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: many times at situations. I said, they weren't there. They
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: never were part of that, but they knew how big
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: they were. FX, the Fox show said, put them in there.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: They've got a huge following. I am blown away how incredible,
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: They're a family of billionaires. And like I said, I
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: knew when I lived at Gretna Green, it was Kim, Chloe,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: and Courtney, Sydney, and Justin used to jump on my
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: bed to wake up Kato. I mean, the kids bought
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: a dog and got the dog, the Akita. It was
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: out of love. They called the dog Kato. So it
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: was two Katos constantly around, Kato the dog and me.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: And I still drink out of a bowl. So- They have,
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: so I just remember them as kids, and I saw their,
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: and Kris Kardashian, Kris Jenner, I saw that sort of
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: the grooming of, the kids are beautiful, and you could
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: kind of tell, I didn't know, there was no social
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: media really, but you could see they're being groomed for success,
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: and that's a good thing, and it worked, and they
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: are so, great for them, that's, you know, they hit
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: a nerve, and they've got their keeping up with the Kardashians,
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: and It's a, it's an empire.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: Do you watch the show?
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: I'm blown away. I'm blown away of how big it
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: actually became. Yeah. Yeah.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: Do you watch the show?
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: No, I don't. I, I don't, I do. Sometimes I travel,
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: I emcee a lot of comedy and I do these things,
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: but I have a whole bit I do on the
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: Kardashians and, and it's all in fun. You know, I
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: just do the Kim, you know, when she hauls ass,
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: she makes two trips. Have you seen her butt? It's
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: the PHAT fat. I mean, it's big. And, Yeah, they
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: got a sense of humor. I'm sure she'd laugh.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: Okay. So you were just talking about comedy. The world
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: of comedy took a huge hit in 2021 with the
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: loss of Norm MacDonald. You and Norm were best friends
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: at one point, but it seems like you guys had
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: a falling out. Were you able to reconnect before he
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: passed away?
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: I saw him in a few comedy clubs. It's not
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: that we didn't reconnect or anything. I was traveling. He's
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: on a show. When you have When you're busy, you're
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: just busy. But I got Norm into basketball. We got
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: him in a league. And when he was 6'4, I said,
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: you should play basketball. He wasn't good at first. He
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: got really good. So that was fun. And we used
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: to go golfing and gambling together. But it wasn't really
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: a falling out. It was not seeing each other anymore.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: And life just grew in different ways. I had a
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: girlfriend at the time. I did this stuff more with her.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: So that was it. People made a... a big thing.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: And I just saw someone put up on Instagram when
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: he's on who wants to be a millionaire and I'm his,
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: his friend in the background, I crack up.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: What was that? And weren't you sitting next to, um,
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Joy Behar or something? What was that?
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's when Joy was actually nice. Um, so sitting there, Joe, yeah,
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: it was the celebrity version, but I was there, his
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: buddy to be, you know, they have someone that sits
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: in that seat. That's always lit. He brought Cato Kaelin
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: for that.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: Um, Did you have to answer any questions for him?
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: No, Regis did an interview with me. I was throughout
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: the whole thing because Norm was out all week. So
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: it was on there. And then I did a few
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: episodes of the Norm show. And that's it. I was
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: kind of around comedy people too. Right.
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: Okay. Okay, another question is, when was the last time
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: you spoke to or saw OJ? It's going to be almost.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: 28 years ago. So it's, um, in a bathroom during
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: my deposition for the civil trial where I was peeing
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: and he said, how's it going? And I said, I'll be,
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: you know, see ya. And that's after I did deposition
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: of telling truths about him that were not flattering at all. Right. Okay.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: So that must've been uncomfortable.
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: Um, yeah.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: What would you say to OJ now if you ran
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: into him?
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, I, I think I would back away.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: I would not run into him. I think I'd walk
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: out of a room. I just don't think I'd face him.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: And there'd be no reason to. I just, I think
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: it's one of those things that has to happen to
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: see if I would say something. But thinking about it
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: with you, I just, I think I'd say I want
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: to get out of this room.
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, right. I wanted to know, what were your
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: thoughts on him going to jail for the whole memorabilia thing?
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, did you feel like Nevada was giving him
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: this sentence because they wanted to prove a point? Or
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: do you think he was just really guilty of that?
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: I think Nevada was proving a point. I think they
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: were saying to California, this is how you prosecute a trial.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: This is how you do a real trial. And we
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: don't care about celebrity. And I think that's what happened.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: I think he didn't. Let's face it. Look what's going
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: on in the world now. People are breaking in and
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: stealing Hermes bags and everything and not getting prosecuted where
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: he got nine years. It's just amazing how people are
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: breaking the law and nothing's happening. That's a whole other
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: issue I'll get into, but it's sickening to me of
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: what's going on in the world. Right, right.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: You grew up in the Midwest in Wisconsin. When you
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: went back to visit your friends and family, and your
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: parents especially, you said they're both deceased now, correct?
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: Sorry to hear that. What were their feelings about the
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: whole thing? thing and you and what was your relationship
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: like when they passed away.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: Well uh my father already passed away before the og
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: trial my mother was uh my mother was so devastated
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: by all the um tabloid shows that were saying terrible
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: things about her son and i would just have to
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: call her when she's crying and say don't watch this
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: which made her watch it even more and i just
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: it just I just, when you hear your mom cry,
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: when I'm very close to her, there's nothing like it.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: It's just like, I don't care if people pick on me,
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: don't pick on my mom or my family. My family
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: very strong so but it was my mom who was
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: so emotional throughout the for years just emotional don't pick
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: on my boy so uh that was it but you
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: know obviously i saw her very many times when i'd
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: go back and forth and she great sense of humor
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: and i'd say mom it's all it's okay don't worry
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: about that.
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: Did she get to see you happy after the.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Fact Oh my God. Oh, for sure. Yeah. She saw me.
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: I'd go there at least back then, at least twice
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: a year and spend time and go to a little
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: cottage up in Northern Wisconsin. So it was all good. Okay, good.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: Um, so now you were talking about how your life
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: kind of happened backwards. Tell us where you are now,
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: what kind of shows you just sold, what, what you're doing.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I do a podcast that is,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: once again, cathartic for me. It's called One Degree Scandalous. Rachel,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: you're going to do it? Yeah.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: It's such a good podcast, and it's such a good name,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: by the way. It's the best. Oh, yeah. Let's talk
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: about the podcast, because I'm obsessed with that podcast. I've
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: listened to a bunch of episodes. First of all, your host,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: Tom Zenner, is amazing. I love him. You guys are
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: a great couple or whatever. You guys are great co-hosts.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: It is definitely a bromance. Tom is so good because I'm,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty much out there and I'm scattered and I'll
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: throw in a joke. Tom is just so focused and
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: laser sharp. And it's because he's, you know, he's from
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: that business of being a news news anchor. But yeah, Man,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: it's like you said, we just have this chemistry. It
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: just works. It just works. One degree of scandals. You're
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: getting great guests. And no, we talk some OJ stuff,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: but we talk about all the other scandals that go on.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: We've had people from the depth trial. We're going to
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: get people from the Alec Baldwin trial. So, and we
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: have fun with it and everybody's. loving the show. So
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: because of, I did, I wrote something with a partner
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: named Mike Jaglin, who's also genius. And we had this
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: idea of wrong place, wrong time. And we've been trying
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: so hard to get in. We've had so many deals
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: that happen and then fall through, but now we sign
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: with a huge agency and we just signed it and
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: sold the show and getting it out of the story.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: But the company that bought it, they only get shows
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: on the air. And that's wrong place, wrong time, where
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: other people are at the wrong place, wrong time. And
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: I just shot a pilot for another show with the
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: host by the name of John Gray. John Gray is
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: the gentleman who was a pastor for Obama and Oprah Winfrey.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: He's got a huge media following, but it's, get this,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: I'm the court interviewer. It's called Teen Court, where teens
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: are suing their parents. It's genius.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 5: Oh.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: And it's done by a guy named Dan Frisch. He's
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: been my friend for almost 30 years. And he worked
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: with Tarantino. He produces shows with Eli Roth, who did Hostile.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: And he's got a new show on Amazon called Daisy
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: Jones and the Six. It's a big hit. And so, Dan,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: we've been trying to do Teen Court forever, and we
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: finally did it. And one of the cases is the
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: girl wants to get a Brazilian butt. Parents say no way.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: They fight. There could be embolisms. They don't know. The
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: kids don't know. They're 16. So they want a real
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: case where they're fighting. And then we have a case
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: where it's the name, image, likeness. Someone's going to make $ 300, 000
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: at age 15 because he's a great basketball player. But
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: his mother says, I want the money. Anyways.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: And these are real cases?
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: Real cases. It's good. It's so good. And I do
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: the interviews and I put little jokes and I do
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: the intros of what the case is going to be. Rachel,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: I'm not just saying this. It's brilliant.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: And are you there for the verdict and everything?
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: The whole time, yeah. I'm there in the chambers. We
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: find out what's going on. We talk to the jury.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: You can vote. They've got it tied into social media.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: And we'll see where that goes. But it got picked
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: up by a big agency also. And people just like it.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: So we got that, the podcast. I travel. I'll do
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: a Comic-Con as a host. I leave next week. And
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: then I'll do another one in July. and just constantly
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: work and do stuff. But something I'm also very proud of,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: can I tell you?
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: A buddy of mine named Charlie Nama played hockey, NHL,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: and we decided that, you know, he came up with
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: this concept that everybody goes to a hockey game for what?
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: To see.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: The hot players?
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: A fight, a hot player.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: Sorry, that's what I go to hockey games for. I
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: don't care about the game.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: Hot players and fights.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, oh, right, right, right, fights.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: So we are going on our third pay-per-view where we
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: go and we have sold it where it's 14 fights
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: with hockey players, just the fights. After this, I'll send
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: you and your link. It's called Ice Wars. Anybody can
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: see on Instagram what we do. And Barstool Sports, you've
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: probably heard a huge following, Pat McAfee Show. It's their
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: favorite show. They've never seen anything like it. It's the
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: newest sport. And I do the interviews in the crowd.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: And I do some of the co-hosting with some of
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: the fights with Chris Therrien, who played 15 years with
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: the Philadelphia Flyers. And he's the voice of the Flyers.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: It is great. And it is, once again, it's good
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: to be gigantic. It's like UFC starting. But it's guys
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: on skates, hockey players, right with the gloves. no hockey,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: right to the fights. Three one-minute rounds, and it's a
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: round robin. It's violent, but so is UFC.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right. So you're never not working. I love that.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: So I just want to say it's been such an
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: honor and pleasure getting to meet you and spend time
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: talking to you because you are just a perfect example
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: of somebody who became famous for being famous, right? And
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: everybody knows your name, but that's like kind of the
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: least interesting thing about you.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: You are.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: you're so charismatic, you're handsome, you're interesting, you were a
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: person before, you're a person after, and you're always hustling
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: to be like a renaissance man to figure it out
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: and live your best life. And I think that's what's
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: really important for people to know, that they shouldn't just
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: know your name for that trial because it had nothing
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: to do with you. It just actually gave you the
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: platform to have more of a voice. And I think
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: that's what's incredible about you.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: You made my week, my month, my year so kind.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: And Thank you so much. And I feel the same
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: way about you. And you can tell by your show
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: that you, uh, anyways, you've got the passion, you've got
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: the caring and, um, I, you're just, it'll be, you're
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: going to have so much success because you know who
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: you are and that's wonderful.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad I did this and that you contacted
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: me and I, I I'm going to see you again. Yes.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to be on your podcast. I'm inviting
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: myself on your podcast though.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: We can't wait. Rachel, so misunderstood. What a great title.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate your time and
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: I wish you all the best.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Have a great one.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: for it?
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than, like, anywhere else.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 5: It's Dunediel.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: Dunediel.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 5: There's an accent on the E.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: Do you mean.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dunediel Cars.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: Lift? Please.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: You going past Kimmage?
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, Kimmage.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: No.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 5: Dunediel Cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.