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Why Becoming Your Own Person Is Harder Than You Think · Bro-ing Pains

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Just when you thought the male brain couldn't get any smaller.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: It does.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, not like that.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: All right, welcome back to Browing Pains, everybody.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you've been with us since the beginning, or if this is your very first episode, we're glad you're here.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: This year has reminded me that identity isn't fixed.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's something you're constantly discovering between who you've been, who the world expects you to be, and who you're becoming.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's when life changes, when you're grieving, when you become a parent, when your confidence takes a hit, that you start asking different questions.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Who am I when I don't feel like myself?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Who am I when the script I've been living by no longer fits?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're exploring this season.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Not just who we think we are, but who we become when the identities we've inherited stop making sense.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because before you ever had the chance to decide who you wanted to be, someone else had already started telling you.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: As we've talked about through season one and two, we inherit messages from everywhere.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Boys don't cry, women are emotional, real men provide, good parents sacrifice everything for their kids.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Some of those messages help us.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Others quietly shape the way that we see ourselves, our relationships, and our place in the world without us ever stopping to question them.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: We're not here to tell you what to believe.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: We're here to help you notice the stories you've inherited, ask whether they're still serving you, and give yourself permission to rewrite the ones that aren't.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome to season three.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Season three, baby, let's go! What's up, world?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Browing Pains, where we have the conversations that live somewhere between your therapist's office and the group chat.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Chad, a licensed marriage and family therapist, but my friends like to call me Papa Chad.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Carlos, theater kid turned self-proclaimed corporate puppy.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And a quick reminder: this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you're struggling or know someone who is, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional in your area.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: And with that, we introduced vignette number 008, starting fresh.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Ryan had always been known as the good son, the golden boy.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: He did well in school, stayed out of trouble, and rarely questioned what was expected of him.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: His parents had a plan: study business, come home after college, join his uncle's company, settle down nearby, and eventually raise a family not too far from where he grew up.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a bad plan.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: The problem was Ryden wasn't sure it was his plan.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: When he was accepted to a university halfway across the country, he surprised everyone, including himself, by saying yes.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: The first few months were exciting.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Everything felt new.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: New friends, professors, routines.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: No one knew his family.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: No one expected him to be a certain version of himself.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: He could be whoever he wanted to be.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: For the first time, he could decide who he wanted to be.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: But freedom turned out to be heavier than he expected.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: He changed his major twice.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: He joined clubs that he quickly quit because he wasn't sure he actually enjoyed them, or just wanted people to like him.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: He started dating someone his parents would never approve of, then wondered if ending the relationship would mean he was being loyal to his family or simply afraid of disappointing them.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Every phone call home left him feeling guilty.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: His parents asked if he was still on track for business school.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: His dad reminded him that people who change majors usually don't know what they're doing.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Ryan laughed it off, but after hanging up, he found himself questioning every decision he'd made.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Was he becoming his own person or just rebelling?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: How was he supposed to know the difference between who he really was and who everyone else wanted him to be?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: By the end of his sophomore year, Ryan realized something unsettling.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Moving away had changed his address, but it hadn't automatically changed his identity.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: I very much relate to the last part of that vignette because I remember when I moved back to Argentina after college.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: I had this idea that I was going to be like this big self-discovery, and I was going to, you know, move out of my depression and and become my own person and be happy.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was there, and then all of a sudden it's wherever you go, there you are.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: You you know, you you could change your environment and things like that, but you still have to work on the internal work of becoming of changing, not just changing your external environment.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: So you're saying that you thought living in Argentina was going to cure your depression or or at least like make you make you feel differently?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it I mean it did the first couple weeks.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, honeymoon phase, right?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Just like a relationship and all that stuff.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I mean, the same negative thought patterns, the same, you know, inner critic that's harsh still comes up, and you know, you have to do that kind of work in order to really become your own person, too.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what like a lot of this not only season but this episode is about is like trying to unpack like what are some of the struggles that people kind of dive into or find themselves coming across when they're trying to become their own person and trying to become the person that they've always wanted to be, and it's it's tough.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: I definitely relate to that in you know, being in your early 20s and still trying to figure it out because you have you have what your parents and your family has taught you for you know 18 plus years, and then you have all of what you're getting from the world, you know what I mean, the world around you.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like, how do you hold space for both while also like trying to figure out yourself and who you are and your likes and dislikes and all of that?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's um I feel like it can be difficult to uh to reconcile all of that.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think for me this really resonates because again, your identity is is not fixed, right?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's constantly evolving, it's constantly changing.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think that one of the biggest sort of life lessons for me this year has been like even when I felt the most stable and the most sort of confident in who I am, life will come and hit you upside the head.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: And whether it's like actual changes in your life, I mean, becoming a father for one, you know, like Papa Chad is a full-on daddy at this point.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um full on changing diapers and full on getting no sleep at night, you know, all of these like really major life changes, then it's also just more just like internal changes and like whether that's like your your confidence getting shaken, whether that's like losing a job, for example.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: These are things that can like knock you off of your game and make you question everything about yourself and your identity.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, how do you get back to to center, right?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: And like what and what does center look like?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: How that how does that affect your identity and how you see yourself?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think I fall into this trap a lot too.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe I'm just wondering if you do this as well or how how you navigate this is like how do I know what is really real for me?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: How do I know I really like something?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: How do I know I actually enjoy X, Y, or Z?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was having a conversation actually with my father-in-law, Charles, over lunch, and he plays in a blues band.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: He has two different blues bands that he runs with my mother-in-law as well.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Shout out to Julian the Jukes and Chicken and Dumpling, which is the duo.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, Charles was saying that, like, you know, he'll go to a gig, he'll like start playing, he'll blink, and the set will be will be over, like done.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, what just happened?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it reminds me of a lot of like the idea of flow state, you know, when like people are just kind of just like in the zone and just like time is just standing still.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I try to like think about that when I think about like, do I really like something and and and not get into the trap of, and this is the question for you is like, do you also find yourself getting in the trap of like, do I actually like this?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Or am I just trying to like impress somebody or do I think I'm supposed to like this?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: That was something that I experienced a lot during my 20s.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Now being 35, shut up, Chad.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Damn.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think being in my 30s now, I'm I think this is where that that like that part comes in of the life hitting me upside the head this year.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: I felt much more like confident and in being like, oh, this is who I am.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: And like secure in that I'm much more, instead of saying confident, I think I'd say like just much more comfortable in knowing that I don't have it figured out.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I will never, you know, have it figured all figured out.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's that's the journey, right, of figuring it out.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's also like, for me at least, being okay with the fact that I will never know and have it all figured out, and also being okay with evolving, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like giving myself the the grace and the freedom to to evolve.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: So like so something that I may have liked and felt really passionate about, you know, two years ago may not give me the same passion and I may not like it, you know, as much now.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that's okay, right?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're we're allowed to to grow and and to grow out of things.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that like for I think for me it's more much more about just giving myself that grace and and figuring it out.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Just because I like something now doesn't mean I I have to like it, you know, five years from now, and I I don't have to stay stuck in that one thing.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Or the opposite, too, where like I'm I mean, I'm I'm wearing a Raiders hat right now, and you would think, you know, you you would grow out of that, you know, Chad.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like you would, you know, try to actually get with the winning team?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, pick a winning team or just stop watching, you know, toxic masculinity football and and and the drama of the engagement farming industry of sports.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um shout out JJ Reddick for that quote.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I I have to be honest with myself.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I I still I still like the rigorous.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm like I there's a there has been a part of me where I I tell myself that I shouldn't, right?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, I'm a therapist.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it promotes a lot of things that I think I'm not I'm not for.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Drinking to excess on the games, sports betting, right?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's all the different things that happen within the sports industry, but yet I I still like I still like watching my Raiders.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I still like following the team.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: I still like you know, the the mystique of of the silver and black, and I have to like I have to honor that, you know.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: So then I'll turn it back on you, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what makes you so loyal to the Raiders, or or like like really, like we want to know, like why it's a good question.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's nostalgic for me.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I grew up, my dad had season tickets, I was like seven years old, and I was the kid with face paint, and so half my face was black, half my face was silver, and it was just like I was all into it.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was I loved it.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then actually, funny enough, like I think my dad, you know, that there was a time where he just like said, like, I'm done with the Raiders, I'm done with with watching sports.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I started to question, like, oh, like, do I need to no longer like the Raiders?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Do I need to get rid of all of my like Raiders memorabilia because this organization sucks?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean they do, but like I I agreed with him, and I was like, man, should I not like sports?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I still struggle with it to this day, but I watch it anyway, and I literally just put my son in a Raiders onesie literally this morning.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: But another point I was gonna bring up was I feel like when it comes to becoming your own person and being authentic, I think it's almost a little too romanticized in our in our culture.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can be authentic one moment and a certain feeling and like a certain thing or whatever.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then a couple years down the line, it's okay to to change and and to gain a different perspective or education or whatever on that.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um I think like people maybe are too hard on themselves to be like, I need to figure out who I am, like even this vignette.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do I really like that club or am I just wanting to get friends?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I you're making it too complicated, kid.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, just if you like the club, you like the club, like just go, you know?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, for sure.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to do that because you're having to become your own person and be confident of that it's it's okay if people don't don't like me, or it's okay if people don't agree with me.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that that's scary.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's scary to confront.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: I had a negative reaction to the word authentic because I think it takes me back to like, oh, you're fake, or you know, like being being real versus fake or whatever.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: And and like I don't think it should be so much about being fake or not, or real or not, but I think it's more about like being true to yourself.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it's okay if you're still figuring that out.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is it though?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't I don't know if people respect that, right?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like in this culture, like you you you have to know, you know, and so people are very torn because they want to just put something out there so that they can be respected.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, you're still figuring it out, and that should be okay, but you don't feel like it is.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think the older that you get, there's more and more like not only pressure, but also judgment, you know, when it's so like if somebody's in their like 30s and 40s and and is still like figuring figuring it out and and figuring themselves out, right?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's there's obviously a lot more judgment in there.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: But like just because somebody in their 30s and 40s has it figured out doesn't make them a better person.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Just because they have more like material possessions as opposed to, you know, somebody who doesn't have it all figured out, it doesn't make them a better person.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was gonna say something then and share with you actually a cool thing that's like a little more scientific about, you know, because you said that like your identity is challenged when life hits you in the face, right?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like whether that be a traumatic event, whether that be a hardship, or whether that be just like a phase of life.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think people don't realize like how much those things actually affect the body.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: But there's this uh interview in this new book that came out um called like dad brain, I think.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the interview was the woman who wrote the book and kind of like researched uh a lot of studies that how does the actual brain, the physiological makeup of your brain, change when you become a dad?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: We do a lot of research on women, and that the that's all obviously great research to do, but not much of it has been about what does it look like from the dad's perspective.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Dude, that's fascinating.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then a couple things I wanted to share.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: One of them was your brain actually um becomes smaller.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: I was not expecting that at all.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's apparently it's biologically, right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because you need to be able to focus on less things.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Just when you thought the the male brain couldn't get any smaller.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: It does.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, not like that.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: It becomes you more focused, I guess.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Damn it, I'd really lost this.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Just watch the interview, it'll explain it better than me.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: But um it becomes more focused, right?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because now you have this like offspring that you can't be like thinking about all these other things.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think biologically it wants you to like attune more to your child and your child's needs.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Something that also is crazy that I don't think I've shared with you is that you know, I do like the night shift with with um with my boy, and um, obviously when he's sleeping, I'm sleeping, so I'm not up all night.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: But when he starts crying, it feels like a jolt of like adrenaline through my body like I've never felt before in my life.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, it wakes me up instantly, just instant fear, and it's like, wow, that is crazy.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't think I've ever experienced something like that before.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I bet you it's because your brain is smaller.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing is they said that the our testosterone actually decreases.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And in our culture, a lot of times there's this T movement of men who have low testosterone are are weaker, are worse.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, when you look at the archetype of men over time, there's actually multiple stages where your testosterone drops.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: When the child's born in that first year, your testosterone drops because you're not trying to go, you know, spread your seed.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're trying to make sure that the offspring that you did create actually survives.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so you tap into more of an emotional part of your brain and it actually develops a side of us that's in all of us that allows us to attune and care and become more nurturing to our offspring than maybe if uh we were acting on a really high testosterone level and trying to just mate.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that like that was really fascinating for me.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: That it's another aspect of becoming your adult is realizing that like your body is actually changing and it's meeting the needs that you've always needed during each one of these cycles, each one of these times.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so just kind of trusting that like your body is gonna do the work that it needs to do for you.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's why it's so important to become attuned with your inner world rather than trying to please everybody else, right?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: When you're becoming an adult, you know, trust that your body and your biology and your genetics can actually take care of yourself and that you actually do know what you like and what's appropriate for you.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to be confident that I I I got this, right?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it's hard for people to to imagine.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to share that and hopefully maybe next time not laugh at me about, you know, our brains get smaller and things like that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: But that's cool, you know, that's fine.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's just interesting, you know.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think a lot of people don't realize like our bodies are meant to live up to the moment and um just trust that like in your humanity that you're gonna you're gonna be able to take care of yourself.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think it's a an important thing to call out there because like I feel the need to say that, you know, this this this podcast has been incredibly therapeutic for me.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, in an in a lot of ways, art has imitated life, you know what I mean?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we did an episode on like how like using alcohol as a coping mechanism.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because of that, I were I was like hell heavily influenced by that.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: I decided to stop drinking.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: I did it for two months.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: The biggest shift really is like I used to drink by myself all the time, you know what I mean?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I think now it's more of just like I'll do it socially, you know, and so like I I don't I don't feel the need to like take the edge off.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like it's it's I really wanted to like curb that for myself, that behavior for myself.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so I feel like it's added another layer of like process things a little more, I don't know, clear-headed maybe, and ultimately, like just trusting myself and trusting myself that hey, you don't have it all figured out right now, but that's okay.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: And trusting myself that I will and that I will get myself out of this depression, out of this funk, whatever, you know, whatever you want to call it.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's it's a good reminder that like life moves on, you know, like life moves on with or without you, whether you're going through good times or hard times.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's a negative and a positive to that, right?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's a there's there are pros and cons to that because like you can feel like alone in that, but also I I don't know, at least for me, I felt a little bit of like motivation, right?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Of like I saw it as more of like a reminder of like this is temporary and that life for me is also gonna get better and it's also gonna move on, and like it's a it's a um it's a fucking roller coaster, and so and trusting myself that I'd get back to just feel more like myself, you know what I mean?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, whatever that is, or whatever that means.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: The way I'm interpreting is trying to implore people to think about like becoming an adult and becoming your own person is actually a fluid movement over time.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna like actually become something and then time stops.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like life still goes on.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like like this culture, in particular with men, through this idea of like we are meant to accomplish things and perform, right?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: We think that that performance is gonna get us to an end goal.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I become this or when I accomplish this, then things will be good.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually not what it means to be an adult.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: It means to be an adult and becoming your own person is you're actually constantly developing through life hits you in the face, through life changes, through whatever it is.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's learning to like I said, look inward, trust.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yourself and then respond to the moment and not feel like you're behind or you're not authentic or you're not yourself because you know you haven't made it yet, because no one has.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're all still developing.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: When was like one of the first moments that you felt like an adult?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Probably when I moved in with my wife.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'd never lived with a partner before.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think before that I was just kind of going through the motions, and I definitely uh I definitely wanted to, you know, differentiating myself from from my family and becoming my own person when it comes to, you know, deciding how I'm allowing people to talk to me and things like that.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I've shared a little bit about my strenuous relationship with my parents and I think just allowing myself to to state, you know, how I want to be treated and how I want to be talked to and how I want to change my relationship is something that I felt like started this this feeling that like, okay, I am I am officially becoming my own personhood.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not just a you know another Freca boy, you know, I'm I'm uh I'm Chad.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Chad.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm me.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: What about for you?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: When I moved to LA, I was on my own for the first time, you know, with a roommate.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so like a lot more just responsibilities.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so like it's on, it's up to you to like feed yourself and to like make sure your bills are paid, rent is paid, you know what I mean?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: So like there, I think that was like the the first time that I really felt like an adult, but it's but also I think it's just been kind of like a gradual thing, right?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's I don't I don't know that there's like ever a moment.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: This is a moment.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm an adult, you know what I mean.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: It certainly isn't when you turn 18, like although legally you're an adult, but there's still so much more development that happens after 18.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: The first thing that came to mind was when I moved in with my wife, but then right now I feel like way more of an adult with a son than I've ever had in my life, you know?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and so it it kind of continues to evolve, you know, and and just like humans, we we continue to evolve.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: So giving ourselves a fucking break, man.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're doing okay.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to figure out which club is perfect for you.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Just try to focus on what makes you happy and and what what is aligned with your values and and what you enjoy and how you want to live your life and and go forth with it.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, as I talked about like differentiating myself from my parents, and really that differentiation is a fancy term from Bowinian theory, which is basically family systems theory in in therapy world.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of different cool gems in there, like family roles, like in the beginning of this vignette, he said that he was like the good, the good son, the good boy.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's also this concept of differentiation, which is um, you know, no longer living in the same sort of like influence from your parents, but being able to um, you know, become your own thoughts and your own and your own decisions making.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like more specifically, it says the ability to separate your emotional and intellectual functioning from the influence of others.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so being able to really differentiate and know that, like, okay, well, that that's them.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they decide and want to do, but this is going to be me.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And this is okay with me.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna like change how I respond based off of like, am I gonna be liked by them or approved by them or whatever it is?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And others could be not only just parents, just like friends and culture and all that stuff.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: I had a supervisor when I was becoming a therapist.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: She would say, you know, I oftentimes find that with working with clients, like, people don't really start fully differentiating until they hit like 30.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when you're like in your early 20s, like graduate college, like you're supposed to think like, oh, I'm becoming a person is like, dude, in your 20s, you're still developing, like relax.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're still developing in who you are.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and so give yourself the time.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And in your 30s is is really what we see.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and I see this in my practice too, like working with folks is like, man, when you hit those 30s, it's like you really start becoming your own self and learning to how to how to differentiate officially.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's cool.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: What are some of the the common themes that you hear or like or talk about in therapy with specifically people in like their 20s, 30s, 40s, maybe?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: As far as like in this concept of becoming your own person and adult.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think a lot of people are affected by traumatic experiences growing up.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: See that right there.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like so many of us completely not not ignore, but like don't even think about our experiences as a child, right?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: When that is what affects everything.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's the book Body Keeps the Score by Dr.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Bessel Vandercock.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he he talks about he thinks that the number one problem in the world is is child abuse.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that includes motion emotional abuse.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so all these ways that we adapt to survive in our childhood, typically they continue.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And part of the differentiation process is letting go of some of those things.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe not completely, maybe it's never gonna like go away, but learning how to manage it, learning how to work with it.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like with Ryan here on the vignette, like I've always been the good son.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: How do you let go of the pressure that you put on yourself to continue to be a good son?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's therapy.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's that that's that's you becoming your own person.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what I see oftentimes is people, like you said, don't realize what are some of the narratives and stories that are that are affecting them to this day and keeping them stuck and not differentiating, and then allowing them to explore who they want to be and and celebrating that.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: I say this all the time.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the coolest, most impactful people in the world that I think about and know have been the most boldest and against the grain people ever.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I'm thinking about Muhammad Ali, I'm thinking about Bob Marley, I'm thinking about people that decide to do things differently.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And those people are celebrated.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, dude, that could that's you by some.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: By some.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Touche.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Touche.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: They're not universally celebrated, you know.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: But they should be.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it's easy to to like gloss over that.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like we all have our own fucking trauma, and like there's always like a reason why we are the way that we are.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people think that they were just born that way.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, and this is where I lean on the side of nature versus nurture.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm way more on the nurture, you know, side of the camp of like we we we become these things.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: We become someone who is, you know, me showing up on time.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is a great, this is a great example I say all the time.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm very, I'm very punctual, you know that, right?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's a reason for that.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because I just chose like, or I was born that way.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very punctual because I'm I'm usually afraid of how other people are going to think if I don't show up on time.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's why.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's something that I still hold to this day.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: I have a hard time allowing myself to be late.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that that's the whole process of differentiation is do I want to be on time because I want to be on time, or do I feel like I need to be on time?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: I have to develop that sense of understanding for myself of like, why do I want to show up on time?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I want to be a writers fan?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I want to be a therapist?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I want to have a kid?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: You have to really look inward on that.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that has to be a very unique personal decision and explanation.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: An old friend of my wife's said one time that they were, you know, on the process of getting married, and then the question of why they want to have kids came up, and they said, because it's the next step.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, No, this isn't like a like a checklist.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like you, and also it's not just a thing to check off the box.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have to really decide if you want to have a kid or not.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is a big deal.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: I tried to, you know, implore them, or we talked about, you know, we don't want to judge anybody, but I would recommend that you really think about if you want to have kids or not.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's a fucking huge commitment.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Your entire life changes, your entire identity changes.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Your brain gets smaller.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm done.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: I had to.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: I fucking had to.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so we leave you with this closing question.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: When was the first time you realized you were becoming your own person instead of just the person you were raised to be?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again for joining us.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you're a new follower, we appreciate you.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you've been here from the beginning, we also appreciate you.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: This season is exploring, you know, our identity and our identity development as men, as humans.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: This episode was really about you know becoming an adult.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: And in next episode, you know, feel free to join us where we talk about more of the development of our self-confidence and our self-efficacy and how that leads into the development of our identities as adults.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: So look forward to unpacking that and going a little deeper and taking this to the next level.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for hanging with us for another episode of Growing Pains.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: If this episode shifted your perspective at all, don't just keep it to yourself.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Pass it on.
• 32:05
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• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if you got a story, question, or a hot take you want us to unpack, slap it to our inbox at growingpainspod at gmail.com.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love to hear from you.