Latest / The ABACC Podcast® / Ep. 2 - Philip Dearborn (President, ABHE) - What a Good President Needs from a Good CFO

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Ep. 2 - Philip Dearborn (President, ABHE) - What a Good President Needs from a Good CFO · The ABACC Podcast®

• Philip Dearborn: there's a power dynamic actually at play there where you can use numbers to leverage. power where a president who does not have an accounting degree or is kind of new at reading financial statements, a CFO can kind of take advantage of that situation. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: So allow allow the president to ask good questions, hard questions, or perhaps even easy questions in trying to understand something and and have grace. Bruce Hoeker: Welcome back to the ABACC Podcast, where we learn from the people serving Christian higher education, and remember that we are all working through it together. Our guest on today's show is Dr. Phil Dearborn, president of the Association for Biblical Higher Education. More than 30 years ago, he was a missionary kid taking a job in the admissions office at Lancaster Bible College for $16,000 a year. He stayed at Lancaster for 26 years and eventually took on the role of provost. Now he walks alongside more than 170 institutions in his role at ABHE and serves his member presidents every day, giving him a clear view of what makes or breaks the most important partnership on any campus, the one between the president and the CFO. This is an honest conversation about both sides of that table. But before we get started, a quick word about our sponsors. Doctor Dearborn, thank you for being here with me today. I appreciate it. Welcome. Philip Dearborn: Absolut absolutely. And please it's it's Philip. I don't know who Doctor Dearborn person is. Bruce Hoeker: Well, you and me, it's Philip. I feel like I in public I should call you Doctor Dearborn, but thank you for that. I appreciate it. Very nice Philip Dearborn: You bet. Bruce Hoeker: to have you on our podcast. I'm looking forward to today. Philip Dearborn: Yes, and I do my own podcast as you can tell from the microphone. So it's a little weird for me to be on the other side of this. So I I'll be Bruce Hoeker: Well good. Good. It's pushing US out of your your boundaries. Philip Dearborn: Yeah, and and if I start asking you questions, you'll understand why. It's just natural. Bruce Hoeker: That's okay. That's all right. That's good. That's just fine. Absolutely. first of all, right off the bat, I want to talk a little bit about your past at Lancaster Bible. And the fact that you were there for over 20 years is just astonishing to me. in light of the fact that nobody lives in higher ed for over 20 years, or at least it's very rare. So talk to me about that. Why why were you there and why were you there so long, Phil? Philip Dearborn: Yeah. So it was I spent actually twenty six years. I've been in higher education for now I think it's thirty-two years total, which is kinda hard to believe. And in fact I say I I can say things like I've been in higher education for three decades, which kind of makes me feel old when I say it that way. But in Bruce Hoeker: Well Philip Dearborn: in in a lot of ways it doesn't feel like it's been over thirty years. But twenty twenty six years at LBC, you know, I graduated, didn't really know what I wanted to do. had a sense that God had called me to ministry and just coming from a a ministry family, my parents had been missionaries. and so I knew I wanted to serve the Lord, but didn't quite know in in what direction. And started in the admissions office recruiting students and they had a position open. I think I made my first contract sixteen thousand dollars a year. so it was it was Bruce Hoeker: Wow. Philip Dearborn: now it goes back thirty years ago. That was a lot more back then, but Bruce Hoeker: Absolutely. Philip Dearborn: But hardly enough for us, but just what I needed to kind of get my feet into my career. And we were going through actually a self-study process, and they asked me to serve on a on the self-study committee for middle states, it was. And so I did that, and in that process was really fell in love with biblical higher education, seeing it as not only seeing what it had done in my life. But also, boy, this is something that I felt like I I really resonated and connected with. And you know, the rest is history went from admissions into the academic side and was the provost there for many, many years before making the transition over to ABHE. Bruce Hoeker: Let's talk talk about that transition a little bit. How did that happen? Philip Dearborn: Yeah, so I I sense that God had had called me to something bigger. I didn't know what that was and really searching what that was for for me in my life. And ABHE was going through a search process and the chair of the search committee, Randy Carmen, reached out to me and asked if I would put my name into the mix of things and did, and few months later was hired as the president of of ABHE. Bruce Hoeker: That's well, I will say ABHE is better for having you. I very much appreciate Philip Dearborn: Well thank you. Your kind. Bruce Hoeker: what you do and the love that you do it with. I appreciate that so much. It's gotta be different though, being at LBC for twenty-six years, serving one institution, now serving over a hundred and fifty institutions. That's it's got to be different. Talk about that a little. Philip Dearborn: It it is and it's we're we're up to a hundred and seventy one institutions now, which is which Bruce Hoeker: That's awesome. Philip Dearborn: is really cool that over the last several years. So I've been there now for six years and we have seen growth in the midst of decline in in higher education and I think there are there are reasons for that. But boy, I I love the seat that I sit in because I'm able to see more nationally and ABHE we're chartered to be within North America. So we have because of our connection to the Department of Education, we work in Canada and the United States. We have international connections. So when I speak I I I it's it's within the context of US and Canadian higher education. you definitely see a a trends and patterns where you when you're at one institution you think that you're unique in the sense of you're going through a particular issue or a struggle or a trend. And now I have this seat where I'm able to see a much broader perspective and realize, boy, there's there there's there's a lot of consistencies and trends Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: and patterns that we can pay attention to. And then as an association be able to say, hey, here's how we can address those patterns. So part of it is is letting the membership know that you're not alone in that There there is a trend and and when you're a leader isolated at an institution, you you kind of get that sense that maybe even discouragement sometimes, like we're doing something wrong here. When in reality it's it may not be you at all. this is a trend that we're seeing across the board. Bruce Hoeker: Absolutely. The industry is a tough place to live, that is for sure. And you see that Philip Dearborn: Yeah, it is. It is. Bruce Hoeker: day in a data. I know that. So what I really want to talk to you about today is the relationship between a college president and a college CFO or vice president for business and finance. And that important relationship, it is one of the most critical relationships on campus, I'm sure you would agree. And Philip Dearborn: It is. Bruce Hoeker: I'll I'll ask you this. As you deal with presidents on a daily basis. What do you feel like a good president wants from a good business officer? Philip Dearborn: Yeah, I I I think it's a it's a it's a gets to the heart of what you c just kind of set up there of the the key relationship. the president has a key relationship with every single one of his or her cabinet members. There's there's no qu and and from for different reasons and and purposes, but I think one of the key ones definitely is with with a with a CFO. And I and as I interact with presidents and and and as they express what they're, going through as an institution and a lot of the issues relate around that relationship between the president and the CFO, either directly or indirectly. And the reason why is it takes resource in order to run our institutions. It takes human capital, it takes financial capital, it takes spiritual capital. There are number of different and it's not limit it's not unlimited, right? There are Bruce Hoeker: Right. Philip Dearborn: limit to resources. And so when you look at that relationship between the president and the CFO, presidents just just want honesty, I'd say is is probably at the very top of the list. And I think that sounds maybe like a duh. Of course they do, and they work with money and they work with finances and numbers. How those numbers are presented and communicated, makes all the difference in the world. And there there's an element of integrity there that the president needs to hear the truth. gracefully. and I always operated and and I know presidents appreciate this when the the CFO the relationship is such that there are no surprises that Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: the president isn't going to be informed or embarrassed or included in the loop of communication when everybody else is on a particular issue that's financially difficult or no surprises. So if there is something that's coming, a president appreciates a CFO that says, Hey, just so you know these X, Y, and Z is here or the numbers have come in and it and and it's now this or you know, we we were hoping to, you know, get a loan for X, Y, and Z to build this building and It's not coming through the way we thought it was. Keeping those lines of communication open, I think, is is so important. So I'd say top of the list is is honesty, integrity, just shooting straight. And we all know numbers well enough. You can spin whatever story or narrative that Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: you want to using numbers. And I think a a a good CFO is going to strip away what he or she thinks the president wants to hear or Perhaps there was a mistake made, so I'm gonna change my numbers to make it look like that wasn't or or or report the numbers in such a way that that mistake is kind Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: of hidden. Just you you you gotta be open, you gotta be honest, you gotta shoot straight. And I and I think too in that presidents it aren't always financially minded. And I think there's a Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Sure. Philip Dearborn: there's a power dynamic actually at play there where you can use numbers to leverage. power where a president who does not have an accounting degree or is kind of new at reading financial statements, a CFO can kind of take advantage of that situation. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: So allow allow the president to ask good questions, hard questions, or perhaps even easy questions in trying to understand something and and have grace. Don't make the president feel stupid for asking or stupid for Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: not understanding how a particular report was put together. Bruce Hoeker: Well, absolutely. I I'm so familiar with with so many business officers over the years who felt that a balanced budget or a positive net income financial statement was their job. And where really their job is to be a reporter and a problem solver and among other things. But there are so many CFOs who feel like I'm I'm gonna feel terrible or feel like I'm not doing my job or I'm gonna be embarrassed if I tell my president. really the actual news here and that's just not a healthy relationship. Philip Dearborn: Yeah, I think there's a there's a tension that's at play there where on one hand the CFO has to approach something from a sense of neutrality appropriately, Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: reporting just what the numbers are. But in the process of doing that, where the tension comes in, they remove themselves from the problem and the solution. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: or or grace and understanding that this is part of I'm on the team and it's part of my problem too. so Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: so yes, you have to be neutral in reporting what it is, and you also have to communicate that you're part of the solution. I I always Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: loved it when a direct report would come to me, not only identifying a problem, but coming with a solution. Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: so I think there's there's some wisdom and and and I think a CFO i lives in that tension. I think there's a tension between the chief academic officer and the president, where the chief academic officer is having to represent the faculty and what the faculty are going through in the academic engine of the institution. And so that's the tension that they deal with. But CFOs and presidents I think it's it's that tension of being neutral but also being part of the solution. Bruce Hoeker: Yeah. I really like the idea of feeling like a team member. You're part of the team, the president's part of the team, the CFO's part of the team. And we're all working towards the same goal. And we can't do that if we're not honest with our team members. So I I really like that idea. It's it's not just you, it's it's not just your job. it is your job, but it's not just your job. And that's a great way to think about it. And if you operate that way, the the freedom that that opens up to really collaborate. And find solutions together. And maybe it takes more than one department to create that solution. I I really like that idea. Well, Phil, I have a ton of questions for you. Here's my next one for you. Presidents do not just need financial information, they need help understanding what it means for mission and strategy. How does a business officer become a strategic thought partner? Philip Dearborn: Yeah. And that's that's part of that tension of being able to be forward looking. I think too often the CFOs and and or the perception of what CFOs does is backwards looking and not necessarily Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: forwards. And there's surely there's an element obviously where you're reporting where we are, what has happened to bring us to this point, but then Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: leveraging it for the future. And I think that that CFO, that's part of the solutions that the CFO brings to the table is thinking forward and saying, okay, based based off of where we are financially and the trends that we've noticed before, this is where it's trending. And if we continue along this path without any change, these are the implications of that. and so we need to be thinking differently so that we can accomplish whatever it is that we need to accomplish so that our finances are in a better position. or or the reverse, the institution is doing really well and enrollment has ticked up, and that has happened at a number of our institutions. And so they're beating the budget. Well, that's not necessarily the time for the president then to say, Okay, well then we can spend money on e whatever we want to, there may be wisdom and actually directing those funds back into the academic engine so that it only feeds it more and and enrollment and marketing and and those sorts of things. So I think it's it's it's it's strategizing and and adding their perspective on and it's not exclusive, right? That's where the other elements of the leadership team come into play, academics and enrollment and marketing and all of the other positions and helping to s to to strategize forward. Bruce Hoeker: And and that really requires having a voice at the table. And that that voice works both ways. You a CFO has to have a voice. A president has to listen to that voice. I I've seen great situations where that's worked like a charm. I've seen situations where it hasn't. And sometimes CFOs don't have a voice. And like I said, it can really come from either direction. But what do you do in that situation? Philip Dearborn: Yeah, that that's the president's job. that that is the president recognizing that he or she needs a fully functioning team across the board in all aspects of what they're leading and what they're managing. And it's v very difficult when the CFO has to advocate for him or herself at the table. It oughta be it that message is for the presidents. Your CFO is more than just an accountant, it's more than a bookkeeper. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. It should be. Philip Dearborn: there the the it i absolutely Should be. A bookkeeper has a a critical job at to play, but your CFO is not your bookkeeper. They Bruce Hoeker: Right. Philip Dearborn: may do that function at some of our smaller institutions, but a CFO has to provide a little bit broader and they need they need to have a seat at the table. But I put that squarely on the president's plate. And that would be for all positions because they're all uniquely leading an element of the institution, and the president has to make sure that those voices are heard at the table. Bruce Hoeker: Absolutely. I a hundred percent agree. So sometimes that voice though is famous for saying no. And CFOs are are kind of famous for that. We we are the the the downer in the room more often than not, unfortunately. And sometimes it's just the the facts. And sometimes we can't afford the things that we want to do. But how how do we deal with that tension when when we have a CFO who feels they need to say no and a president that doesn't want to hear it, for whatever reason, what do we do? Philip Dearborn: Yeah, that's a that's a tough one on on a couple layers because if if the CFO is reporting truth and legitimately the answer is no. the CFO has to give the answer of recommending no, we we can't afford to do that. It's a great idea. We're not being critical of the idea. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: But but no. so that that's hard because there there's that responsibility that's there. So that's one layer. I say another layer is and I'm generalizing that CFOs tend if you were to paint a picture and generalize Bruce Hoeker: Yes. It's okay, you can say it. We know. Philip Dearborn: are are are are gonna see the the cup half full Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: or half empty as opposed to half full. So, you know, it's it's a it's a tough you're working against personality there at at that point. And I think self-realization of of what who who you are as a CFO, what your personal strengths are, what your personality is, how you're perceived, how you come across. that's emotional intelligence. And if you can sharpen your emotional intelligence as a CFO, you can understand how you're coming across in a meeting. you can also understand, for example, in the midst of a no, there could actually be five yeses, but you've not celebrated that, right? Like there are some good things that are happening and that the CFO can bring to the table. So they're not always perceived as the the the Debbie Downer or around the table. Sorry if your name is Debbie. but again, I think that's part of the role of the president too, to pull that out of their leaders so they aren't always reporting bad news. And you know, and and and celebrating the wins when they come. So I'll give an example. Like, you know, w a lot of our institutions are are get enrollment from multiple delivery methodologies. So you've got your on-campus traditional undergrad, which tend to be the most expensive because you've got to have expenses against that personnel, libraries, dining halls, Bruce Hoeker: Okay. Philip Dearborn: athletic fields, all of those and and buildings you know, need repair over time. So you know, those y so you have that population, you have adult learners, you have online education, you have graduate. And so, you know, you may be up celebrating, you know, traditional undergraduate enrollment is breaking records. While at the same time, maybe you experience a downturn in your grad population. You're so so so it's it's a complicated story. So so for for CFOs to be able to do it in a very winsome way to say, hey, we celebrate the fact that we have higher traditional undergraduate enrollment. Our admissions team did an amazing job recruiting the students. They met, they exceeded the goals and were doing well on that side of the equation. Grad enrollment, boy, we we took a dip and and we just didn't quite meet what we thought we were gonna meet. And now this is the implication. So we're up on this side. So being able to paint the full picture, the CFO knows the full full picture, Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: but if they're able to articulate it in a team meeting, I think it works towards the whole team understanding it a little bit better than just pointing out the negative things. you're down over here. I can't believe that this happened over here. And and to be honest, there have been some CFOs that, and that's that power dynamic that you Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: come to the table. They see themselves as a power player, as the no yes, no person. And I have the information, and they're looking for that opportunity to say, aha, I got you. or Bruce Hoeker: Mm, mm. Philip Dearborn: or maybe not that overtly, but they sense their power and then present it in such a way that makes them look like the one that save the institution because they reported this information. It's not about us. It's it's so Bruce Hoeker: Mm. Beetle power. Mm. Sure. It's not. Philip Dearborn: yeah. So I'd say that having that emotional intelligence and knowing who you are goes a long way. Bruce Hoeker: Yeah, I would I would absolutely agree with that. it's a tricky balance, though, for sure. So Philip Dearborn: It is. It is. And and I would say it's it's not a balance, it's a tension and and lean into that tension. You solve problems, you manage tensions and this is a classic tension. Bruce Hoeker: Back to right back to teamwork. Yeah, absolutely. Philip Dearborn: Yep. Yep. Bruce Hoeker: You you you referenced the fact that you see a lot of institutions that feel you unique in maybe in a positive way or in a negative way. They feel very unique, or it's just us that are dealing with this. And you're saying you're you're dealing with 175-ish institutions and you see a lot of similarities. Talk a lot, talk about those similarities a little bit. Philip Dearborn: Yeah, absolutely. And I I think it's I think it's a axiom for all industries. When you're when you're in it, you you think that you are unique in in your experiences, but the reality is think think about, you know, medicine and the different diseases and problems that are out there. you know, you may be f feeling a certain way and think that you're unique in that and then you go Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: to the doctor and find out, yeah, these symptoms, it means that you have this and and it's a garden variety. Bruce Hoeker: Mm. Philip Dearborn: virus of of some sort that that you're battling. So so, you know, th th there is so so I I'll give some examples. you know, w I I always whenever I hear this and I hear it often, we're the best kept secret. You know, if we could only Bruce Hoeker: Mm. Philip Dearborn: get marketing to get the message out, we have so much unique things to offer. And and yes, you do within within and on your campus, the problem isn't necessarily marketing. Maybe it's because you haven't differentiated yourself from the rest of the market. And I there's a big Bruce Hoeker: Mm. Mm. Yeah. Philip Dearborn: I I I I have a whole talk on this, which I think is so critical to understand this, you know, y I I call it the the the trap of perpetual fall. and I'm re referring to the marketing materials that will often come out with you know, fall colors and and students walking along Beautiful path with all of the autumn leaves Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: in front of one of the college buildings. Well, how many of our institutions have done that? And Bruce Hoeker: all of them. Philip Dearborn: and they all say small classes, great Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: athletic program, awesome dorm experience, chapel experiences, amazing, faculty who care about you. I've yet to come across an institution that say that their faculty don't care about them. Bruce Hoeker: Right. Philip Dearborn: So so I I I talk about it as the trap of you've you've now described the entire industry of Christian and biblical higher education. Those aren't bad things. That's what we deliver to the public. But if that's if that's what you sell and market, now it's a race to the bottom because you have just marketed what every other college is is marketing along the way. I speak in terms of value proposition. If you attend here and I we're consumers. We're in a con if we're in a consumer world. What do I get out of it? Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: is really what you have to start selling. And that's where the uniqueness is can be talked about, where you identify these are differentiators for us from the rest of the market. But don't fall into the trap of thinking that everything that you do is is unique. If those everything that you do are small classes, perpetual fall on your campus, great athletic program, great dining hall, great fill in the blank. That's that's all of ABHE institutions and C C Bruce Hoeker: Sure. Philip Dearborn: C U institutions and some ATS institutions. Bruce Hoeker: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Let's talk about the CFO's point of view, feeling that it's just us. It's just my school. It's just me. you CFOs often feel so alone in this. And I think the same thing holds true. It they're not alone. They're very much looking like the neighbor down the street and the neighbor across the other side of the state and across the country. You've seen Philip Dearborn: Yeah. Yeah. Bruce Hoeker: that too, I assume. Philip Dearborn: Yeah. And I think that's the that's where and I love ABACC, I love everything that you're doing because you provide a network for a very niche position on the campus, and that's the CFO, as a resource to be able to say, Okay, I have a network now of people that I can reach out to. If we're doing our audit and we run into these issues with our auditor, or in our what are some of the best the auditor identified this flag on our campus as as an issue who do I go to to say is this are other colleges finding this too? And Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: and I think ABACC can pl plays a critical role in kind of being the platform that can assemble those voices and to be able to make those connections. And I always say to presidents and I would say it to s to to CFOs too have a network of individuals both inside your ABHE or within but also with from without, where you could bounce some ideas Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm, absolutely. Philip Dearborn: off of to say, Hey, I experienced this. what are your thoughts? Or or maybe, you know, CFO is presenting to the president and it just goes the like you can't put your finger on it, like something just wasn't right there Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: to have a network to be able to go to and say, Hey, so I just met with my president and this happened, is this Am I missing something here? Did I sh should I have approached it in a different manner or should I have handled it in a in a better way? I think it's so Bruce Hoeker: Right. Philip Dearborn: critical to have those connections. Higher education, we love our silos. And I Bruce Hoeker: We too. Philip Dearborn: I I think we fall into that with the C suite and and and each of the individual officers officers fall into their silos and in that process they feel very isolated and Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: everything that we've talked about. Bruce Hoeker: Absolutely, absolutely. Well well, thanks for the plug there, by the way, Phil. I appreciate it. Philip Dearborn: you bet. Bruce Hoeker: let's talk about this. We we talked about what a president expects from a CFO. And you you really stressed the idea of honesty. The CFO needs to simply be honest and forthcoming and a help and a resource. What let's turn it around the other way though. What should a CFO expect from a president? Philip Dearborn: Yeah, direction, guidance. and I I think a CFO and and this is built off of the relationship, right? That that you're not gonna do if you're a brand new CFO does pr as a president, I don't recommend that you do this right off the bat. You gotta get to know the person and the working relationship. I I'm a huge believer that all of this happens, in the context of trust or no trust. And trust is not built overnight. You can lose trust overnight, but Bruce Hoeker: Sure. Philip Dearborn: trust is built over time. And so I think for a CFO is is critical building trust with the president. And how do you do that? I think it's it's it's getting to know the president more than just the president, but who they are, their family and and how can I pray for you and how can I so that you're you're you're showing that your interest level is just not on the financial side. and the roles Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: because again it's buckets, right? This is my responsibility. This is and I'm not gonna deviate from that. Look at Get to know the president and and and spend time with him or her. And again, if the president isn't making themselves available, make every effort to to get that FaceTime. And I think you have the responsibility to advocate for that FaceTime. The CFO is no less of a role across the the the C suite. you need to ask respectfully, you need to ask for it. And if you're just not getting it, I think. I think the CFOSS asked a hard the hard question of themselves, is this a good fit for me here? You know, if I if I'm Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm, absolutely. Philip Dearborn: not if I'm just a bookkeeper here, maybe maybe my skills could be used elsewhere in in a in a better way. Bruce Hoeker: I absolutely agree with that. I've I've I've spent a lot of time on institutional websites and it's amazing to me how many websites do not include the CFO in the leadership category. Philip Dearborn: Yeah. Yeah. Bruce Hoeker: you can tell right off the bat what kind of institution that is and where the mentality is at, unfortunately. You you deal with presidents all day long. give me some good examples and some bad examples you've seen of presidential CFO relationships. Philip Dearborn: so yeah, no, obviously I won't I won't I won't be Bruce Hoeker: We can leave names out just for the sake of Philip Dearborn: be be sharing that. I w I would say the the good are when you have those that the CFO is sitting at the at the C suite table. the y you you absolutely have to have that. and and if a president is listening to this or a CFO and they're not on the the the C suite, boy, I'd I'd ad advocate strongly for that because it's it's Bruce Hoeker: Mm, yes. Philip Dearborn: it's so It's so so critical. so I'd say, presidents who have the CFO there, presidents who create a safe environment for conversation to happen. so one of the warning flags that I see is when I get into a room and everyone around the table is agreeing with the president like everything. Like like Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: Or or a question is asked and nobody answers except for the president. that usually is a signal to me that something's not quite right around the table. Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: And I the the leadership axiom that I live by is the higher you go in leadership, the fewer truth tellers you have around you. And Bruce Hoeker: Wow, yes. Philip Dearborn: presidents can fall into that trap of just having a bunch of people that agree with them around the table. And Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: and I think that's an unhealthy situation. So some of the unhealthy things I've seen is when a president is making all of the calls and all of the cabinet members are just doing exactly what the president wants or communicating only what the president wants to hear, what not what the president needs to hear. Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: those are those are bad those are bad situations, for Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: sure, that are that are toxic. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Well, there the I again I won't use any names, but a school comes to mind where where that's exactly the case. The the president is the do-all end all and nobody has a voice, and if they do have a voice, they don't stay around very long. Unfortunately that uns that that institution is failing, and I can't help but look and say, gosh, is this this is why, or at least one of the reasons why for sure. Philip Dearborn: For sure. And I don't think our we don't we don't have time. We don't have time. The the the exit ramp to closure is a lot shorter than what it used to be. And if we can't be Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Yeah. Philip Dearborn: firing on all cylinders, our our days are numbered. Bruce Hoeker: Absolutely. I a hundred percent agree with you. you you talked about advice that you would give a CFO, but not necessarily to a new CFO. If you had the opportunity to sit in a room with a new president and a new CFO, what's your advice? Philip Dearborn: Start building that relationship. And for that new CFO, I would also encourage them to build relationships with their colleagues around the table if they're sitting at the C suite. And I think that's that would be because you're you're you're you're colleagues, right? So what happens on the academic side, what happens on the marketing side, what happens on the enrollment side, what happens on the advancement side all has impact on the resources of the institution. So I would build lateral. Relationships if you're a new CFO. and it doesn't have to be formal. Take the take the chief academic officer to coffee or to lunch and just say I want to get to know you. And ignorance is is probably one of our biggest vices in in higher education where you know a a a chief academic officer may avoid the chief financial officer because they don't understand numbers and they don't Bruce Hoeker: Mm. Yes. Philip Dearborn: understand how a budget is put together. And they don't understand how and how to read an audit or to make sense of an audit, but they don't want to admit that they don't know that. So so their response is to avoid the CFO because I just don't want to be up on their radar. And I've been in multiple meetings where the CFO is going on talking about all kinds of stuff. I can tell by everybody around the table, they're clueless as to what that CFO. But Bruce Hoeker: Ha ha. Philip Dearborn: no one wants to say, Hey, could you I feel like this is a dumb question. No, you so so how are you how do you create environments for those Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: dumb questions to be asked is you build relationships. And if the CFO or new CFO has that with their colleagues, then you create the place for for those conversations to happen. And I remember asking multiple times, hey I understand this. Like help me understand you just rattle off the number two hundred and seventy two thousand dollars. I don't see it anywhere here. Where Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: where is that? Help me see that and and yeah, don't don't Don't make any assumptions around the table, build those relationships. And and again, the key relationship there being between the president and the CFO. Bruce Hoeker: Sure. Well, I I I do believe too that if if everybody feels like if I ask this question, I'm gonna look down, I feel like the CFO hasn't set the right tone either. A CFO should be super approachable. Why why would the C E A or the C I O or the President have any real understanding of the the weeds that a the CFO has to wade through and so you should be asking questions. Philip Dearborn: Yeah. And I think yeah, I think it's a responsibility across the board. CIOs Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: are another source of of information as power. like Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Philip Dearborn: you can lose me in conversations as to any number of different like like using shop talk, right? CAOs Bruce Hoeker: Sure. Of course. Sure. Philip Dearborn: do it, CIOs do it, CAOs do it, where they Bruce Hoeker: Sure. Philip Dearborn: talk about, you know, curriculum and scope and sequence and all of these things. We all tend to vocabulary up. to to to make a a power move in in a meeting. And if we Bruce Hoeker: Mm. Mm. Interesting. Philip Dearborn: can just kind of back off of that, we're real people. We're trying to we are all on the same team going in the same direction. How Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Yes. Philip Dearborn: d how do we help each other understand where we're coming Bruce Hoeker: That's at the end of the day, it really goes back to one of your earlier sentences. It we're on the same team. And if you're if you're if you're using lingo for the sake of trying to sound impressive or important or correct or cover up the fact that you're not sure, I've seen that as well. Philip Dearborn: yeah. Bruce Hoeker: We're not being a good teammate. And Philip Dearborn: Yep. Bruce Hoeker: ultimately this comes down to working together to accomplish your goals. I really like that idea. Phil, you've got the entire AVAC audience at your disposal here. There everybody's tuned in listening to you. Give me your last thoughts, your most important thoughts. Philip Dearborn: Well, I'd say thank you for the doing the important work at your institution. And I think there are so many internal dependencies across positions that the institution can't function without a CFO, it can't function without a CAO, it can't function without the marketing team and the enrollment teams and and the advancement teams. There are so many codependencies. So I would say to CFOs, thank you for the work that you do. Oftentimes it's unseen and you are simply reporting the the the time. Top, right? The the the the top of the iceberg of all of the work that you've done to get to that point. So I just want to say thank you. And I truly believe that it's a calling that God has gifted us Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Philip Dearborn: with talents, gifts, and abilities to serve him. And for CFOs, I think they have a unique set of of gifts, talents, and abilities. And so thank you for using them at your institutions and be encouraged. know that you're part of Of important work. Sometimes you may not know all of the details that are rattling around in a president's mind. so while you think you want them to ask certain questions and they don't, there could be other things that are going on that you're just not aware of. so give the benefit of the doubt, give grace, ask good questions, build relationships, have trust, and I think that will pave the way to a much smoother. And greater satisfaction in the role that you play at your institution. Bruce Hoeker: I love that. Thank you for that. Tell our listeners where they can learn a more about the work of ABHE. Philip Dearborn: You bet. ABHE.org is our website. And pop on there. We're growing and providing a lot of professional development, helping leaders. And my axiom is we don't get better as a leader in one big experience. We get better as a leader one increment, one degree at a time. So take that next step to be a better leader. Bruce Hoeker: Great. Thank you so much for being here, Phil. We really appreciate it. Philip Dearborn: You bet. Bruce Hoeker: I keep coming back to the moment Phil said a CFO doesn't live in a balance but in a tension. You solve problems, he said, but you manage tensions. Report the numbers honestly, with no spin and no surprises, and then stay in the room to be part of the solution. And if you are a president listening today, Phil's challenge was for you too. Give your CFO a real seat at the table and make it safe for every question, even the ones that might be uncomfortable. Thank you for listening to the ABACC podcast. If you heard yourself somewhere in this conversation, you're not the only one feeling that, because we are all working through it together. Come find your people at myabac.org. Before we wrap up, one more quick word from our sponsors.