Latest / Through the IDEA Lens / How Curiosity Grows STEM Part 2
Transcript
- speaker-0: How do we do a better job of lifting things out of the technical journals to make it accessible and usable so that people understand what knowledge is being created and how it can help to improve lives? speaker-1: Welcome to the Ideal Lens. Podcasts that bring science and evolution speaker-2: Through the podcast and inclusion. speaker-1: into focus. Dr. speaker-2: Join hosts? speaker-1: Mahadeya Sukhai and Peter As they explore and develop in STEM and beyond. speaker-2: Geter Field Inclusion Accessibility Belonging speaker-1: Welcome back to Through the Ideal Ends and our continuing conversation with Bonnie Schmidt of Let's Talk Science. I'm Peter Shield. In this month's episode, Bonnie shares some anecdotes about the success of her program and Mahati and I talk about our own experiences accessing STEM in our high school classrooms. I start by asking our guest what progress she has seen over her 30 years with Let's Talk Science. I'm just curious, Bonnie, whether you've seen changes on both sides of that equation. I mean, it's the same equation in terms of outcomes in terms of kids between age three and 17, such as your clientele, as well as kids with disabilities. Have you seen positive outcomes in the 30 years that you've been doing this? speaker-0: Yeah, without question. Now, we don't keep running track of individuals and performance outcomes, right? But anecdotally, there have been many, many times in which we'll go into a classroom and nowadays with the full integration, you you you don't always know what the different levels of ability are or if there are any challenges that we might need to be thinking about with our programs or accommodations that might need to be brought into it. But I distinctly n remember myself experiences where teachers would say things like, well, don't worry about, you know, little Johnny in the back if he's disruptive or doesn't seem to be paying attention or whatever. And they'd paint this picture of a child who probably has some kind of a learning disability or something like that. And during the session, which is really experiential and we've gotten better about the vocabulary we're using, how we give instructions, how we bring people in. We've learned a lot from the research. And at the end of the session, I say to the teacher, like, who was it that you were talking about? Like and the teacher actually saying, I have never seen that child be so focused for such a long period of time. speaker-2: Well why is that? speaker-0: Right. Why is that? Right, exactly. Exactly. Active movement in this particular case. Interesting topic. Ability to move around. Like there's there's lots of reasons why this happens, but we see those anecdotes and we do try to prepare our volunteers for situations that they might find themselves in without actually knowing the class or the the community group they're group they're going to go into. And again, some of the training that Mahadu has helped us to develop works really, really well because if we're just sensitized. to what the potential might be. And we have in our back pocket a range of accommodations that might be developed very quickly, or you just you're more conscious about it. It it it you can work really on the fly in these outreach experiences and it it it works well. It works really well. speaker-2: Well, so I'm I'm gonna drill down on that a little bit and and share some of my own experiences. So as so Bonnie, as as you know, I came to Canada basically for grade nine. And when I was in nine ten science, I was looking around and I wasn't seeing other kids with vision loss or other kids with disabilities. And that that's in contrast to sort sort of your experience where your group of friends all went into STEM. So, you know, I I wasn't seeing other kids who in gigantic hair quotes look like me, who were who were going into STEM. But at the same time, in in grade nine, STEM was the one thing. Like my grade nine science class was the one thing that made sure I did not go completely off the deep end. Because I'll be honest, my first term marks, I had fifty one in grade nine math because I was bored. I had fifty one in grade nine English because we spent a lot of time Talking about flowers for Algernon and Greek and Roman mythology instead of learning grammar, which is coming from coming from the Caribbean, all we did was learn grammar. We didn't do English for sure. I had a shall we say handshake agreement to simply not participate in grade nine gym. I had a forty in grade nine keyboarding because I was looking at the keys. In other words, my head was pointed in the direction of the keyboard, which it apparently it shouldn't have been. and and I mean you know The the the other courses, the two geography courses I took and and the introduction to business course I took, they were better. They were in in the eighties range and then science was ninety five, right? Like the the one course that I genuinely enjoyed in grade nine was grade nine science. And of all of the teachers who are probably wondering what the hell I was doing in grade nine, right, my grade nine science teacher was not one of them. Right. speaker-0: Yeah, it's a great story. So I'm assuming you fixed all those other grades because you did actually graduate in Guan to become a psychiatr. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: Like a little PhD at the end. speaker-2: I mean, the the thing is that that it i it was the culture shock of of the the Caribbean school system, which was based on the British school system and and then the Canadian school system, which was fundamentally different in terms of order of operations, right? And so that culture shock very interestingly did not manifest in the science classroom. It speaker-0: What do you think? speaker-2: manifested everywhere else, but not in the science classroom. I think it's it's because There was very little difference between what grade eight science had been for me in Barbados and what grade nine science was here. Right? And and it it's not that I was learning the same thing all over again, that was grade nine math, but rather there was an inquiry based through line that actually made sense. For all the other subjects, no sense. Mm-hmm. Right? I come back to the fact that I I kept looking around and I was like, Does nobody else like me here? Why is there nobody else like me here? And and that question of why is there nobody else like me here led to the 15 years that preceded the foundation of IDSTEM and and has basically led to the last 20 years of work in this space. And so perversely is an application of of why it's important to be curious. I think also it it sort of gets at kind of, well, okay, if if there isn't anybody else who looks like you in the space, then then you're you're either conditioned to feel isolated or you're conditioned to feel like you shouldn't be there, or you end up getting this sort of sense that that, you know, you're you're a loner and and you're ostracized from everybody else, right? And I I think, you know, bringing this back to curiosity, you know, what kind of consequence does it have when kids with disabilities aren't in spaces because either teachers don't know how to navigate what they need or teachers don't have the time or they've been discouraged from thinking about STEM at home, right? And then what do we do? You know, do we end up with a population of young adults or a population of of adults who who are just in curious about things they should actually be curious about? speaker-1: Yeah, I can tell you, Mario, just from my own experience that I self-selected out of math and science in grade 10 as soon as I could. it wasn't because anybody. Yeah, exactly. And it wasn't because anybody told me to. It wasn't that I was pushed out. It was just, I just felt I didn't belong, right? Textbooks weren't accessible. There was no sort of even acknowledgement that I might learn a different way, right? So that goes back to your question about why you didn't see people like you. was probably. in grade 10 many years before you, certainly when I went through it was just basically I don't think I can do this and as soon as I was able to draw math and science I did. speaker-0: So both of you are touching on a really important concept that i is a relatively new area of research, but it's it's underscored by the idea of science identity and some very interesting work over the last say five to ten years coming out. And and in fact it's becoming such an important component of how we develop people to have the scientific thinking, not to become scientists, like it's not really about that. But PISA, the international science test that is done with grade 10 students every three years or so, they've actually added a much bigger component to help understand how how young people develop this idea of science identity. And both of you talked about some of the key elements, right? The idea of do I believe in myself being successful in this particular area? And for whatever reason. If you don't see people like you or you don't feel that you have the tools to help you be successful, it becomes much easier to disengage and not actually build that whole self-concept that I can be successful and I have the ability to ask good questions and whatnot. So it's a really interesting area of research that you might want to dig into a little bit more. And what are some of the barriers to actually developing that level of identity? There's so many aspects to it, but confidence and interest and feeling like you belong because it's there's a a cohort for you, whether it's a teacher, whether it's a peer, whether it's just somebody you know that has maybe gone through some of the aspects of the life that you've gone through and they've, you know, quote made it and done something in the particular field. It's a key element and I didn't actually have the phrase to anchor some of the work that we were doing, right? I we talked about the importance of role models and we talk about the importance of relevance and whatnot. But the more that I've started to understand about this research concept and some of the research that we're doing also into how our volunteers are not only benefiting with their own science identity from Let's Talk Science involvement, but how we're helping young people develop their own science identity. It's it's really become a very interesting way to scaffold, right? So here becomes a concept and a construct that you can start to ask better questions on the evaluation about. Like what is it about feeling like you belong? How do you measure it? What are the predictors that will be likely to continue on in some of the courses that Peter used that you dropped as quickly as you can? And by the way, it's still happening, right? Fifteen percent of kids across the country are completing grade twelve physics and that's a prerequisite for engineering. So we have this conversation, go back to the gender a bit, have a conversation about why aren't girls in engineering and that is changing. And I say, Well, have you looked at a grade twelve physics class lately? Right? Like, you know, there's only fifteen percent of the cohort. So five out of six kids aren't actually eligible. speaker-2: Finishing it. speaker-0: Yeah. Are not eligible for engineering, right? So there's a whole construct that we can dig into as well about identity and how do you help foster positive identity? Curiosity is definitely an enabling trait, because if you don't want to ask a question, well, you're not really gonna make good scientists later. And even if you're not a researcher asking questions, like life is just so much more interesting if you lean in with a level of curiosity about the world. speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean curiosity about the world equals curiosity about people and curiosity about places and curiosity about things. It's not just why is the sky blue, right? Yeah. You know, it it also comes down to why are mountains pretty to look at. I would share sort of a couple of things in response to that. One sort of gets back to the adult learner kind of thing because because the adult learner starts out being a kid learner. Right? And that that that idea of science identity, Because I think the way that a lot of people think about science identity is tied to the technical. It's tied to the biosafety cabinet, it's tied to the quantum computing, it's tied to the chemistry and beakers and all of that stuff, right? It's not tied to curiosity and asking questions. And so so then, you know, I've I I've met so many graduate students who've come to the end of their PhDs and who will turn around somewhat helplessly and say to themselves and the world, all I know how to do is hold a pipette. When in reality, what you do in in the PhD is you hone this thing that you learn to do at the age of two, which is ask questions and evaluate answers, right? You you learn how how to be thinking critically about the world and and everything in it throughout graduate school, right? If you were paying attention, that that's what you get out of it. If you're not paying attention, then you know how to pipette. The other thing that I would sort of comment on, I I'd use a math example, right? So, you know, for kids who are dysnumeric. Who don't have a good relationship with numbers, they think about numbers differently, they think about math differently, but but this is now an artifact of how we teach math because we teach math sort of in in one very specific way. And I know kids and young adults who've point blank said, I couldn't learn math and therefore I'm not interested in math, but but now they're young adults and you know, budgeting is an issue. Tipping is an issue. Knowing that they're not overspending on their credit card is an issue. And when we say let let's not figure out how to navigate the world with these people at a very young age, we're also having these these long lasting, long term consequences. And it isn't just about stifling curiosity, ultimately it's about stifling life skills. speaker-0: Absolutely. Like this this is where our world has really become so dependent on some level of basic STEM literacy on so many different fronts, whether the math literacy that you're talking about or some of the the science and technology literacy. It has really society, at least, you know, North American society, Canadian society has evolved to have such a a high level of impact. And It's even worse because the way that, you know, rightly or wrongly, but the way things have evolved, it also has such strong implications for wage disparity, for poverty gaps, for like the whole haves and have nots. So the social the social benefits of having more of these skills and this exposure to some of these subject areas and some of these life skill areas you talk about. actually has very, very serious long-term repercussions, right? You think about wage disparity, health disparity issues. You think about fraud and and who's potentially more likely to be scammed, right? If you think about some of the stories. And and I think for us, this is where with Let's Talk Science, it's really not just about trying to create more workers out there who are science-based workers, but it is about how to empower citizens and develop a citizenry that is engaged, that has the skills that they can do whatever they want, but they will have at least a level of literacy that will help serve them well later. speaker-2: Well, to so I I was at the Canadian Association of Science Centers conference a couple of weeks ago and we had this really cool session on futurism and my table got the conversation of fostering critical thought. We had a really fascinating version of this conversation that that focused on curiosity and critical thought and how to evaluate information. Because there's two sides to critical thinking. One is being able to ask a question, the other is being able to evaluate possible answers to the question. Right. and and in the world that we live in today, you mentioned myths and disinformation earlier, Bonnie, and in the world that we live in today, we have democratization of information, right? Where the the social media influencer on TikTok gets more views than the technical white paper on climate change. speaker-0: Yeah, if you could actually see me, you'd see me like squinting and breathing deeply. Like, Yes, I know. Yes. speaker-2: Absolutely, right? I say this because podcasting I I this is a little bit ironic because podcasting itself is a social media approach and here I am, you know, on a podcast with you, quote unquote influencing, right? While I'm also saying that the technical paper is is not read nearly as much as as the influencers' TikTok is viewed. speaker-0: There's difference there though, Mahadu. I mean, you have an educated view about a particular topic that you're you're speaking on. And I think using the right medium to be able to translate some of the knowledge and the experience into the audience that you're trying to reach is super important and and you need to do that. We need to do a better job. You've also hit on a topic that is near and dear. Like how do we translate science, issues around disabilities, universal design. How do we do a better job of lifting things out of the technical journals to make it accessible and usable so that people understand what knowledge is being created and how it can help to improve lives? So I think there's a little bit of a difference between casual influencer and your podcast. speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah, I I I mean I I agree, but I I raise it because you think about how Gemini does a search. Yeah. Right? Or how ChatGPT does a search, it doesn't distinguish necessarily between the technical paper and the TikTok influencer. And so this is this is one of the things about curiosity and and critical thought because if we or the agents we use to answer questions that we're asking don't sort of filter the quality of the information that we're receiving, then then that will lead to myths and disinformation spreading as easily as it has. speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. speaker-2: And then going back to inquiry based learning, I think part of inquiry based learning is understanding how to evaluate the answers, right? Why is the sky blue? One possibility is somebody went up there and painted it. Right? And and I mean, that's not what happened because it's all about Raleigh scattering. But at the end of the day, you have to be able to discard the possibility that somebody went up there and painted it. Right? So I guess somebody would have had to have go gone up there and painted a gray right now, but anyway. Right. But again, if we're pulling kids out of inquiry based learning because we think, you know what, they don't need this because of the technical aspects of STEM that it's couched within, then what are we actually doing? speaker-0: Trouble. That would be that'd be trouble. speaker-1: This is fascinating. But I wonder if we could return to the modules that we've been talking about. And you both referred to the idea stem modules and how they benefited you, Bonnie. So I wonder if we can explore that for a minute about how those modules are put together and how they're helping to develop this area of inclusion. speaker-0: Sure. I will also point out for listeners that on the Let's Talk Science website, all of the materials and the access to programming is available and everything we do is free. So there's we try to really improve accessibility for all audiences. But the module itself is actually called Creating Disability Inclusive Science Learning Environments. And Mahadio and Ainsley and the Idea STEM crew worked with our team. to create it's actually just a a beautiful module. It's it's a couple of years old now. And so before we decided to have the conversation, I took a another look at it and I just thought it is it is as relevant today as the day we released it. It's a very inviting toolkit that helps people that may have little experience in creating environments for a very wide range of of young people. I think It's it's kinda like the way to go for everybody because it's regardless of abilities, disabilities, the invisible, visible, thinking about language, thinking about facility design, thinking about universal design for learning and adaptation. So there's lots of tools and t tricks and tips throughout this three unit module and it is it's really enlightening. Really helpful. So we use that with educators, we use that with staff, we use that with volunteers, everybody who will be working with young people in different situations, and it's been quite helpful. speaker-2: And I think one of the natural pushbacks on something like this is, well, again, educators don't have time and it's hard work. And what we very intentionally tried to do in in creating the module was sort of not necessarily overtly bust those myths, but rather covertly bust them and do everything we could do to demonstrate that if there was intentional thought up front into how to do accessibility by design in the STEM learning environment, that it's not going to be hard. It's it's not gonna be as challenging, it's not gonna be as stressful, and it it's it's gonna help you sort of more easily navigate a very diverse group of kids who are gonna be within your learning space. speaker-0: Yeah, and I I what I also like about it is there's concrete tools and tips and language. Because sometimes if you're not necessarily if you're new to teaching or you're new to designing science and create programming, you don't necessarily think about the relatively easy way to take a concept and make it accessible. And I was thinking about one of the examples in the module is about looking at the water cycle, but framing it out in a picture way in which cotton is used for the clouds. Yeah. And toothpicks are used for an arrow. So you can not only see them, but you can feel them. And I just thought this is amazing. Like this is brilliant. I would love to build this myself. So why are we getting the kids to actually do projects like this? That becomes a super accessible way to be dealing with a very diverse range of kids and it's actually fun. So when you go back to engagement, it's gonna work for everybody. That was just one of the examples we have. Yeah. speaker-2: And you know, Peter, I I would also say this, one of the very first engagements, even pre IDSTEM, that we actually had with LTS. So so I volunteered at LTS back in two thousand and two, which I think Bonnie you knew, when I was a PhD student. And then I I actually did some work making sure that the Let's Talk Science chapter at the University of Toronto in the the one associated with the Faculty of Medicine was was actually receiving sustainable funding through the Faculty of Medicine. So I worked with local site volunteer coordinator who was a friend of mine. And then in twenty sixteen, again, pre-Idea STEM coming into being, we actually did some work with some LTS volunteers at the University of Toronto at Mississauga with respect to actually thinking through sort of how to make sure that we could develop a demonstration science activity that could be fully accessible. And there were all sorts of grand ideas about how to how to take that and run with it. I still have in my head they they haven't as yet materialized. But, you know, Bonnie, what what you just actually sort of highlighted is is this idea of of multi sensory ways of interacting with science and and interacting with how we teach science, right? And the idea of building sort of that picture board with that tactile version of the water cycle, then you're not only looking at it, but you can also feel it. Right. And right there is a is really creative sort of ways to engage not just one sense but multiple senses in learning approaches and that by itself is a really nice long podcast for another day. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Sounds good. speaker-1: Sounds good. I'm sensing that we're going to wrap things up. So Bonnie, thanks for joining us today. And indeed, when we start talking about Let's Talk Science, we can talk a lot about what that is and what that means for everybody. So I appreciate you coming on today and really appreciate your views and the work that you've done now for over 30 years. So keep up the good work. speaker-0: Thanks for the opportunity. It's always fun to talk to Mahadio and I really enjoyed the conversation today, Peter. speaker-2: Thank you so much, Bonnie. speaker-1: Thank you once again for joining us on Through the Idea Lens. Next month we're going to start a three-part conversation with Dr. Imogen Cole of Toronto Metropolitan University on the scientist's identity in the context of equity and inclusion. Join us then. I promise it'll be the start of a great conversation. speaker-2: Thank you for joining us for speaker-1: this episode of Through the Ideal. speaker-2: The conversation W dot You can email us directly at info. speaker-1: at idea-stemca Until next time, keep speaker-2: looking through. speaker-1: the idea lit.