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Mini: Designer Genes · Why We Do What We Do

0:03
Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome
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Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do Many I am
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Speaker 1: your host Abraham and I'm your oh Shane. We are
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Speaker 1: a psychology podcast. We talk about the things that humans
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Speaker 1: and non human animals do and then things we do
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Speaker 1: to them before they're even borns that they do things
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Speaker 1: we want them to do differently.
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Speaker 2: That was so succinct, Thank you well.
0:37
Speaker 1: It needed to be, because this is a mini minis
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Speaker 1: we release on Monday's are short, bite sized episodes. We
0:43
Speaker 1: try and keep them under fifteen minutes. Want to get
0:45
Speaker 1: into this topic and then wrap it up as quickly
0:47
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0:50
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1:04
Speaker 1: I'll talk more about that at the end of this discussion.
1:07
Speaker 1: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome, Hope
1:09
Speaker 1: you enjoyed with you here in this podcast episode. And
1:11
Speaker 1: if you're a returning person, then welcome back. We're so
1:13
Speaker 1: glad that you continue to visit us. Either way, we
1:16
Speaker 1: are doing a mini which means it's short, which means
1:18
Speaker 1: I need to stop rambling and pre rambling and get
1:21
Speaker 1: into our topic du jour. Are you ready?
1:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do some post rambling.
1:25
Speaker 1: Let's do some post rambling. With the invention and development
1:29
Speaker 1: of several new technologies that have allowed for precise gene editing,
1:34
Speaker 1: we as a species are like on the precipice of
1:38
Speaker 1: possibly being able to directly manipulate the genes of human beings. Technically,
1:42
Speaker 1: we've actually already crossed that threshold. But I mean, you know,
1:46
Speaker 1: and this is not even beyond selectively breeding people, which
1:49
Speaker 1: people have also done. This is actually about going in
1:53
Speaker 1: and changing the genetics of an existing embryo to have
1:56
Speaker 1: certain features and characteristics, which someone has also done, which
2:00
Speaker 1: I didn't plan to talk about in this episode, so
2:01
Speaker 1: I'm not going to bring it up again unless it
2:03
Speaker 1: comes up. But that is a that is where we're at,
2:05
Speaker 1: as we're like on the precipice of this being a
2:07
Speaker 1: widespread practice.
2:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, why would we even do this? We're actually gonna
2:12
Speaker 3: talk about some of those arguments for and against genetically
2:15
Speaker 3: altering humans. Now, this is delicate water to tread. Yeah, okay,
2:21
Speaker 3: so I think there is a slippery slope. I don't
2:24
Speaker 3: know if you talk about this in this episode. Do
2:25
Speaker 3: you talk about eugenics at all a bit?
2:27
Speaker 1: Yes, that's sort of another Yeah, yeah, beautiful. We will.
2:30
Speaker 3: We will talk about that because I think it is
2:32
Speaker 3: a slippery slope as we get into things. So just
2:34
Speaker 3: we'll just we want to put that disclaimer out there
2:37
Speaker 3: that this is one of those ones where you go,
2:39
Speaker 3: I don't know, yeah, this could go in a dark
2:42
Speaker 3: direction or not. Yes, I mean, we're going to discuss
2:45
Speaker 3: the things that are said, but we'll also try and
2:50
Speaker 3: make the case fairly clear. I want to start by
2:53
Speaker 3: making sure we're all clear we're not talking about altering
2:56
Speaker 3: the genes of someone who's already born right now. The
2:59
Speaker 3: discussion around editing genes has to do with editing the
3:02
Speaker 3: genetics code of a human embryo so that the future
3:07
Speaker 3: child born of the embryo then grows up with the
3:09
Speaker 3: alterations that form the basis and the structure of their
3:13
Speaker 3: genetic and biological development following their birth. Sure, right, Like,
3:18
Speaker 3: is that clear.
3:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yah.
3:21
Speaker 3: So I think that's a good point that kind of
3:23
Speaker 3: like maybe start even getting into arguments for this. Right So,
3:26
Speaker 3: when we are talking about doing this gene editing thing
3:29
Speaker 3: or this this geninary process that's coming up, we're talking
3:31
Speaker 3: about maybe some of the arguments for it are things
3:33
Speaker 3: like preventing genetic diseases or bolstering strength and ability of
3:37
Speaker 3: said human after they're born. So one example is Huntingdon's disease.
3:42
Speaker 3: So Huntingdon's disease is a fatal neurodegenerative genetic disease with
3:46
Speaker 3: an onset in the thirties or forties that results in irritability,
3:50
Speaker 3: difficult decision making, difficulty learning new things, extreme weight loss,
3:53
Speaker 3: muscle loss, in voluntary movements, difficulty swallowing or moving, and death.
3:58
Speaker 3: It has no treatment right now, no cure, and no prevention.
4:02
Speaker 3: So the idea is that you could possibly use something
4:05
Speaker 3: like gene editing to remove the gene that would be
4:08
Speaker 3: responsible for Huntingdon's disease developing in somebody who is in
4:12
Speaker 3: their thirties and forties.
4:14
Speaker 1: Yeah see, I mean you'd edit the gene of an
4:16
Speaker 1: embryo and then that way, if the person had the
4:18
Speaker 1: capability of developing this disease. You will have taken that
4:22
Speaker 1: capability away and they will live a life without ever
4:25
Speaker 1: having developed this disease, because it is a horrible, horrible disease.
4:30
Speaker 2: Right.
4:30
Speaker 1: Cystic Fibrosis is a chronic genetic disease in which a
4:33
Speaker 1: thick mucus clogs the lungs, pancreas, and other organs and
4:37
Speaker 1: makes it extremely difficult to breathe. And I've been in
4:41
Speaker 1: class like workshop things where this the experience of breathing
4:45
Speaker 1: with cystic fibrosis is like being able to only breathe
4:47
Speaker 1: through a straw. It is like you might think that
4:50
Speaker 1: doesn't sound so bad, but try it. It is incredibly uncomfortable,
4:53
Speaker 1: like it sucks. And most people with cystic fibrosis live
4:57
Speaker 1: only into their forties or fifties, which is actually a
5:00
Speaker 1: tremendous improvement from what it was. There are treatments now
5:03
Speaker 1: that do help mitigate this, and there have been some
5:06
Speaker 1: versions of treatments for a long time, although a lot
5:08
Speaker 1: of them were fairly limited in scope and how much
5:10
Speaker 1: they could actually do. But the new and emerging treatments
5:13
Speaker 1: and the things that really do prolonged life are extremely expensive,
5:17
Speaker 1: costing one hundred thousand to one hundred and thirty thousand
5:20
Speaker 1: dollars every year to help manage this. Like, this is
5:25
Speaker 1: someone who's in middle classes, entire annual salary, right like
5:30
Speaker 1: being spent on this. This is an extremely expensive disease
5:33
Speaker 1: that in extremely painful, extremely uncomfortable, and fatal if not treated.
5:38
Speaker 2: Right.
5:39
Speaker 3: Another example that is you can make the argument for
5:41
Speaker 3: this would be muscular dystrophee. It's a genetic disease that
5:44
Speaker 3: results in a lack of muscle control, muscle rigidity, tripping
5:47
Speaker 3: following difficulty getting up and waddling or toe walking when upright.
5:51
Speaker 3: This can further lead to difficulty breathing and heart failure.
5:54
Speaker 3: It is one of the most expensive diseases to treat,
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Speaker 3: including new Toshane genetic treatments that cost up to three
5:59
Speaker 3: point two million dollars for a single treatment.
6:04
Speaker 1: That is, that's a lot. That is a lot of money.
6:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's too much money for a treatment. But
6:09
Speaker 2: that's that's where we're at right now.
6:11
Speaker 1: We do not get nearly that much for ads. All right,
6:20
Speaker 1: we're back. So we're talking about some of the various
6:22
Speaker 1: genetic diseases that exists that could possibly be treated with
6:26
Speaker 1: something like genetic engineering. Some other arguments that are in
6:29
Speaker 1: favor of the the people who argue for continue to
6:34
Speaker 1: advance science around genetic editing and engineering are that as
6:38
Speaker 1: we continue to advance this, it will lead to the
6:40
Speaker 1: kinds of regulations needed to proceed carefully and ethically, as
6:44
Speaker 1: opposed to placing a universal moratorium on researching genetic editing,
6:48
Speaker 1: which would not allow us to further develop systems and
6:52
Speaker 1: regulations to facilitate this kind of work should it emerge
6:55
Speaker 1: when it does emerge. So they're they're kind of making
6:58
Speaker 1: the case like, we will get a lot better at
7:01
Speaker 1: this if we're allowed to do it, but we won't
7:03
Speaker 1: get better at this if we're not allowed to do it.
7:05
Speaker 3: Right, right, And perhaps super genetically enhanced babies will be
7:09
Speaker 3: the next great leaders that will change the world. We'd
7:12
Speaker 3: be investing in the super geniuses of the future to
7:15
Speaker 3: help engineer policies to shape a better society. So that
7:17
Speaker 3: means that we wouldn't have MAGA anymore. They would just
7:20
Speaker 3: fall by the wayside. But there is something to be
7:22
Speaker 3: said about the idea of that component, right, like the
7:26
Speaker 3: maybe greater cognitive capacities, maybe like there's lots of things
7:30
Speaker 3: that could happen that people. And again this is not
7:32
Speaker 3: us making this argument. This is what people will say
7:33
Speaker 3: is like, people could be smarter, they could be more insightful,
7:36
Speaker 3: they could be more empathetic, they could do all those
7:38
Speaker 3: things if we're able to edit genes in certain ways.
7:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, peak human potential is sort of whether you're going yes, now,
7:45
Speaker 1: it does lead us very importantly to the arguments against this.
7:48
Speaker 1: All of that might have sounded fairly convincing, and I
7:50
Speaker 1: would not blame you if you were convinced by those arguments.
7:53
Speaker 1: Those genetic diseases are terrible. The possibility to maximize human
7:56
Speaker 1: capability sounds like a good idea. The arguments for this
8:00
Speaker 1: or a cautionary tale. We're thinking about like designer children.
8:03
Speaker 1: There is going to be an emphasis on fair skin.
8:06
Speaker 1: There just will be like that. That is just the
8:07
Speaker 1: thing that will happen. Not to say that there will
8:09
Speaker 1: not be any other type of skin color in genetically
8:11
Speaker 1: engineered babies, but the preference predominantly across the world has
8:16
Speaker 1: been a preference toward farer skin, and so that is
8:19
Speaker 1: going to be where the emphasis, not exclusion, but the
8:21
Speaker 1: emphasis will be placed. And this will further widen the
8:24
Speaker 1: inequality gap. And this leads to another argument that people
8:27
Speaker 1: against this have raised is who is to say what
8:30
Speaker 1: is something that needs to be quote unquote fixed in
8:34
Speaker 1: someone's choice? Like who gets to make that choice? Because
8:38
Speaker 1: depending on the person or the people put in charge
8:40
Speaker 1: of that, they might have a very specific and clear
8:42
Speaker 1: agenda about what they think makes sense. And therein lies
8:46
Speaker 1: kind of the problem with eugenics broadly speaking, is classifying
8:50
Speaker 1: something that is not a problem as a problem that
8:53
Speaker 1: needs to be fixed.
8:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that is the crux of ableism. Yeah,
8:57
Speaker 3: at its core, really it is.
9:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.
9:01
Speaker 3: Truly, Like I mean, like autistic folks and members of
9:03
Speaker 3: the autism community talk about this constantly, and we talked
9:05
Speaker 3: about this on the Asperger's episode. Yeah, because this is
9:08
Speaker 3: one thing that comes up often, is like, if you
9:10
Speaker 3: can edit genes, then you can eliminate something like autism.
9:14
Speaker 3: And the argument is like, well, what's so bad about autism?
9:17
Speaker 3: And that's where some of the ablest arguments come in, right, Yeah,
9:20
Speaker 3: That's why I said it's a slippery slope because when
9:21
Speaker 3: you get int the like disability, you're like, oh okay,
9:24
Speaker 3: Like who's to say what is a disability and like
9:26
Speaker 3: what's good and what's bad and what needs to be fixed,
9:28
Speaker 3: and that's part of why this becomes a slippery slope.
9:31
Speaker 3: And the other side of this too is like this
9:33
Speaker 3: would definitely only be available to the rich and the
9:36
Speaker 3: lucky and leave most people behind. So this wouldn't even
9:38
Speaker 3: be accessible to most people.
9:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely at first, it's possibly become more widespread, but
9:43
Speaker 1: it's extremely unlikely. Like the likely outcome is that rich
9:46
Speaker 1: people get to make it so that they don't have
9:49
Speaker 1: to worry about healthcare because they're genetically altered in such
9:52
Speaker 1: a way that they don't get sick, they don't get diseases,
9:54
Speaker 1: they don't get injuries, whatever the problem is, right, Like,
9:56
Speaker 1: their lives are even already easier than they were to
9:59
Speaker 1: begin with. So that's that's definitely a consideration there. And
10:02
Speaker 1: then another important consideration here is like there are things
10:05
Speaker 1: that we just don't know about how genetic changes affect
10:08
Speaker 1: the entire sequence of other interacting genes, Like what are
10:12
Speaker 1: the externalities of making an edit to a genetic sequence,
10:16
Speaker 1: what are the cascading effects? We don't know those things.
10:19
Speaker 1: And I think people might argue, well, we aren't going
10:21
Speaker 1: to know those unless we do the research. But I'm
10:23
Speaker 1: like that's a pretty high cost, Like these could really
10:25
Speaker 1: result in things somebody's life. Yeah, this is someone's life
10:28
Speaker 1: we're messing with here that we don't actually know what
10:30
Speaker 1: the what the considerations are about these that we could
10:35
Speaker 1: just sort of will anely say like, well, let's just
10:36
Speaker 1: go ahead and change it and see what happens. Like
10:38
Speaker 1: we can do evolution better than evolution, can I don't
10:41
Speaker 1: think so. I am pessimistic that that is true.
10:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. There are just other considerations here too,
10:48
Speaker 2: like you know, what is considered good as far as
10:51
Speaker 2: good genes versus bad genes.
10:52
Speaker 3: Like there' that's a subjective and often weaponized question, right,
10:56
Speaker 3: I mean that is that's part of the problem. So
10:58
Speaker 3: half a century ago, being gay would have been a
11:00
Speaker 3: serious consideration for selectively omitting some gene that is responsible
11:05
Speaker 3: I mean if that's the case, right, like responsible for
11:08
Speaker 3: somebody's orientation. This is something that would have been targeted
11:12
Speaker 3: under gene therapy.
11:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they would. People would be looking for, all right,
11:15
Speaker 1: what are the genetic markers associated with homosexuality? Let's root
11:18
Speaker 1: that out. And I'm like, I don't we don't we
11:20
Speaker 1: should not be getting rid of people who do not
11:23
Speaker 1: follow a heteronormative like preference or lifestyle. That is insane
11:28
Speaker 1: and a terrible, terrible idea. And again, we don't know
11:31
Speaker 1: what other effects that a given genetic mutation may have.
11:34
Speaker 1: Like let's say someone who has Tasac syndrome, also because
11:39
Speaker 1: of that genetic manipulation that change in their genes, they
11:42
Speaker 1: have that disease tastes act, but as part of the
11:45
Speaker 1: cascading effects of that, they also maybe are immune to
11:48
Speaker 1: developing any kind of addiction. We would never know, right, Like,
11:53
Speaker 1: those are things where it's like we just don't know
11:55
Speaker 1: what other kind of benefits actually come from some of
11:57
Speaker 1: these mutations. What if someone would taste could digest poison
12:01
Speaker 1: without suffering harmful effects because their genes just happen to
12:04
Speaker 1: have a code. And like we never experimented with that.
12:06
Speaker 1: We weren't going around feeding people poison to see which
12:08
Speaker 1: people naturally had immunity built up to it. But it
12:10
Speaker 1: just so happened that this person who had this thing
12:13
Speaker 1: also could digest poison. And when they had kids, their
12:16
Speaker 1: kids had that same gene and they passed that on
12:18
Speaker 1: and it spread and became more ubiquitous with throughout and
12:20
Speaker 1: so this whole idea of like breeding out certain things
12:23
Speaker 1: because they have traits, we just don't know what we're
12:25
Speaker 1: selecting out right. And like this whole eugenics thing, it
12:29
Speaker 1: presumes that we know what is a good gene, and
12:32
Speaker 1: we don't.
12:33
Speaker 2: We don't know what it is, and it's possible we
12:35
Speaker 2: never will.
12:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we won't, because like what seems like
12:40
Speaker 1: good to us is an evaluation based on some archetype
12:43
Speaker 1: that's like, here's a thing we aspire to be that
12:46
Speaker 1: is ultimately and I'm like, our aspirations do not suggest survival, fitness,
12:53
Speaker 1: or like social benefit or anything like. These are not things.
12:56
Speaker 1: And so I worry that what we do is we
12:59
Speaker 1: get so hyper focused on a single issue that we
13:01
Speaker 1: forget the broader context of what could be implied by this.
13:05
Speaker 1: And like I hear something like Huntington's disease, and then
13:07
Speaker 1: like maybe there is a case may made that there
13:09
Speaker 1: are some genetic diseases we think like this, like this
13:11
Speaker 1: one doesn't even have an onset until you're in your
13:13
Speaker 1: thirties or forties, and then all it does is kill
13:15
Speaker 1: you rapidly. Right, maybe there's a case that we made there,
13:18
Speaker 1: But again we don't know if there may have actually
13:20
Speaker 1: been some other benefits that came with that genetic mutation,
13:23
Speaker 1: Like maybe up until that point, the person had the
13:25
Speaker 1: most beautiful singing voice you've ever heard, or they were
13:27
Speaker 1: the most talented engineer on the planet, and then all
13:30
Speaker 1: of a sudden they developed this disease. Like we look
13:32
Speaker 1: at let's take for example, Stephen Hawking who developed ALS,
13:36
Speaker 1: who like maybe the gene that made ALS possible in
13:39
Speaker 1: him was also responsible for being like a super genius
13:42
Speaker 1: at math and quantum physicis R And it's like, all
13:44
Speaker 1: you had to do was be exposed to the right environment,
13:46
Speaker 1: and you are going to be extremely good polymth and
13:50
Speaker 1: he was. He happened to be that we don't know.
13:52
Speaker 1: That's the thing is like we could try and root
13:53
Speaker 1: these things out, but we might be sacrificing something that's
13:56
Speaker 1: really important that will benefit all of us right down
13:59
Speaker 1: the road, Like and it is that whole idea of
14:02
Speaker 1: eugenics that it's like we could selectively breed towards some ideal.
14:05
Speaker 1: I'm like, there is no faking ideal, Like there is
14:07
Speaker 1: no perfect human. And just as you said, it really
14:10
Speaker 1: opens the door for ableism. It's like, let's get rid
14:12
Speaker 1: of deafness. I'm like, there's the deaf community, I think
14:15
Speaker 1: is a very happy, proud community that does not feel
14:17
Speaker 1: like the fact that they are not hearing people has
14:20
Speaker 1: an adverse effect on their lives. We shouldn't be taken
14:22
Speaker 1: that away from people. Are people who are born with
14:24
Speaker 1: like low or no vision, same thing. Like, I don't know,
14:28
Speaker 1: it just feels like we're treating people's differences as being
14:32
Speaker 1: bad and we just don't like there's not there's not
14:36
Speaker 1: a reason to think that that that's bad.
14:39
Speaker 3: Right, And and also like on the other side of that,
14:41
Speaker 3: like let's look at people who have no genetic disease
14:43
Speaker 3: as far as we know, but they are easily the
14:46
Speaker 3: worst people on the planet.
14:47
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, Elon Musk, RFK Junior, RFK Junior.
14:51
Speaker 3: And you know, we're having these conversations and kind of
14:53
Speaker 3: going like is that the standard?
14:54
Speaker 2: That would be a terrible standard to aspire to if
14:57
Speaker 2: that's the case.
14:58
Speaker 3: So, like, you know, genetic disease that not necessarily is
15:02
Speaker 3: not predicated on whether somebody is good or bad.
15:04
Speaker 2: That's a different conversation.
15:05
Speaker 3: And I think, like you said, like there is like
15:07
Speaker 3: a certain standard that is societally normed that becomes its
15:12
Speaker 3: own problem in this conversation.
15:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, so with genetic editing, what we're doing essentially is
15:18
Speaker 1: narrowing genetic diversity. And I think that these arguments, I
15:21
Speaker 1: think are pretty strong against narrowing genetic diversity. And just
15:24
Speaker 1: as you said, the worst people in the world don't
15:26
Speaker 1: seem to have any genetic diseases than they exist. So
15:29
Speaker 1: if we're't accomplished more of that, like we have one
15:33
Speaker 1: more Donald Trump than we need as a species, arguably
15:36
Speaker 1: we have two more since he has a son named
15:38
Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Yeah, so man, we definitely have like five
15:42
Speaker 1: more RFK juniors than we will ever need as a species.
15:45
Speaker 1: They are absolutely to say the superfluous is putting it nicely. Yeah,
15:49
Speaker 1: So where we stand on this, I feel like it's obvious.
15:51
Speaker 1: I think that we just cannot responsibly move forward with
15:54
Speaker 1: genetic editing without like a enormous amount of consideration and
15:59
Speaker 1: screwtany I would be very concerned about us editing genes,
16:04
Speaker 1: and you know, we can maybe, like I said, the
16:06
Speaker 1: argument against removing some of these gene diseases is extremely compelling.
16:10
Speaker 1: These are horrible experiences that are very painful that people
16:14
Speaker 1: have to go through that makes their lives very difficult,
16:16
Speaker 1: and maybe whatever we sacrifice to remove that is worth it.
16:19
Speaker 1: Maybe it is, I don't know, but like I just
16:21
Speaker 1: think that if we ever dip our toes into the
16:24
Speaker 1: sand of engineering, eye color, skin color, height, weight, intelligence,
16:29
Speaker 1: I'm like, that is a boundary I think we should
16:30
Speaker 1: never ever try and cross.
16:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, agreed, one hundred percent.
16:34
Speaker 1: Okay, great. If you have disagreeing thoughts with us, you
16:36
Speaker 1: should reach out and tell us. You can email us directly,
16:38
Speaker 1: infowwdwwdpodcast dot com, or on the social media platforms. Than
16:43
Speaker 1: we do look forward to hearing from you. I think
16:44
Speaker 1: there's more nuance in this conversation. I think that we
16:46
Speaker 1: only barely scratch the surface, and that was a risk
16:48
Speaker 1: that we ran by choosing to do this as a
16:50
Speaker 1: mini my fault, But hopefully we got enough nuance into
16:53
Speaker 1: the conversation to at least have you be thinking about
16:55
Speaker 1: this in a particular way, in a new way, a
16:57
Speaker 1: different way, a more refreshed way. I don't know.
17:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a big conversation. So we're just kind of
17:02
Speaker 3: we're just we're dipping our toes.
17:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, but anyway, we would like to hear from you.
17:06
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17:15
Speaker 1: the phone subscribe for them. Thank you to my team
17:18
Speaker 1: of people who make this podcast happen. Because we're running along.
17:21
Speaker 1: I'm not going to even read that list, but thank you. You
17:22
Speaker 1: know who you are. I appreciate you. Is there anything
17:24
Speaker 1: that I forgot or you'd like to add before we
17:26
Speaker 1: wrap up?
17:26
Speaker 2: No, I think that covers it.
17:27
Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening.
17:28
Speaker 2: This is Abraham and this is Shane.
17:30
Speaker 1: Why We Do what We Do? Mini is out.
17:32
Speaker 2: Bye. You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
17:36
Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
17:39
Speaker 2: going to wwd wwdpodcast dot com.
17:43
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.