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Belonging vs. Leading: Navigating LGBTQ+ Conversations in the Local Church · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,
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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the
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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions
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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto
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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this
0:33
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on doctor James Spencer and I
0:35
Speaker 1: am welcoming back today Peter valk And. He is the
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Speaker 1: director of EQUIP as well as a licensed clinical counselor,
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Speaker 1: and today we're going to be talking about what it
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Speaker 1: means to belong to the Christian community. So welcome back man,
0:51
Speaker 1: thanks for coming back on the show. I'm excited about
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Speaker 1: this conversation.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Sam, glad to be here and yeah, curious to
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Speaker 2: hear you know, did you get any interesting comments from
1:03
Speaker 2: audience members from our last conversation or anything stick out
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Speaker 2: for you?
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Speaker 1: So, I think our last conversation I got good feedback
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Speaker 1: on it. I think anytime you address that topic and
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Speaker 1: what we what we really discussed was sort of celibacy
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Speaker 1: within the church period, and then also how that related
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Speaker 1: to celibacy within the sort of the homosexual Christian community.
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Speaker 3: Right, So how celibacy functioned there.
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Speaker 1: And I think that people number one were a little
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Speaker 1: surprised by the celibacy period. It's not a conversation that
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Speaker 1: you usually have in sort of Protestant circles, right, usually
1:47
Speaker 1: reserve that for the Catholics.
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Speaker 3: But then there were also pretty compelled.
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Speaker 1: The folks that I got feedback from were pretty compelled
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Speaker 1: by your approach to this. They thought it was actually
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Speaker 1: somewhat novel, and these weren't people who hadn't necessarily known
2:03
Speaker 1: much and so they were really interested.
2:08
Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: So yeah, good feedback.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm kind of hoping we can have something
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Speaker 1: very similar today. I think these these topics are really challenging.
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Speaker 1: You know, I've been at churches where and I haven't
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Speaker 1: been involved in those conversations. I'm an elder at my
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Speaker 1: church now, so I anticipate being involved in these kind
2:29
Speaker 1: of conversations, I guess going forward.
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Speaker 3: But you know, I've been at churches in the past
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Speaker 3: where you have.
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Speaker 1: Members who are you know, come to the church already
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Speaker 1: married same sex couples who are already married who come
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Speaker 1: to the church and they're already transitioning. And so then
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Speaker 1: these awkward questions of, hey, what do we do if
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Speaker 1: you know, these folks want to serve in the church,
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Speaker 1: what does it look like for us to engage these
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Speaker 1: people in the church. And I don't gather that it's
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Speaker 1: a question. At least my experience hasn't been that it's
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Speaker 1: a question that's asked in order to exclude, right, But
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Speaker 1: it is a question of how do we do this.
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Speaker 1: It's just a new question that doesn't seem like it
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Speaker 1: should have a default answer, like and so that's a
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Speaker 1: really difficult sort of practical wrestling that I've seen go
3:26
Speaker 1: on at churches. So I'm kind of interested to see
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Speaker 1: where we go with this.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So it's it's it's a concern that kind
3:35
Speaker 2: of churches that we partner with at EQUIP often bring
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Speaker 2: to us. So a lot of what I do in
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Speaker 2: my day job through EQUIP is consulting and coaching with churches,
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Speaker 2: and some of that is around some of the standard
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Speaker 2: operating procedure, around policies, around these tricky situations that can
3:51
Speaker 2: end up blowing up if if you handle them poorly.
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Speaker 2: And so there's a couple of things kind of top
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Speaker 2: line that we recommend for these churches. One is clarity
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Speaker 2: is the most important thing to begin with. And so
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Speaker 2: you would not want an LGBT plus person to visit
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Speaker 2: a church, get plugged in, be a part of a
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Speaker 2: small group, and it take years for them to discover
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Speaker 2: that there are certain fences around serving publicly in certain
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Speaker 2: ways right and be surprised by that and feel like
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Speaker 2: a bait and switch experience. So the first thing is
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Speaker 2: I encouraged to figure out what kind of their policies
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Speaker 2: are in terms of what are ways people can serve
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Speaker 2: as leaders and where they're submitting themselves to mutual accountability,
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Speaker 2: and what are ways that people can serve that doesn't
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Speaker 2: require a submission to mutual accountability and then make that clear,
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Speaker 2: you know. And then a key around that is also consistency.
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Speaker 2: If there are roles that we're saying it's only for
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Speaker 2: people who are saying yes to being lay leaders or
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Speaker 2: members where they accept mutual accountability from each other and
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Speaker 2: from the church membership. Are we holding people accountable to
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Speaker 2: other ways that people might be falling short of God's
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Speaker 2: wisdom and is that clear to an LGBT plus person
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Speaker 2: who visits. So that's a couple of things. And then yeah,
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Speaker 2: there's the treaty part of distinguishing what are the ways
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Speaker 2: someone could serve in our churches that that don't Well,
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Speaker 2: there's two ways that some terms go about it. For
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Speaker 2: some churches, it's just fear that any saying yes to
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Speaker 2: an LGBT plus person who is in unrepentant sin and
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Speaker 2: let's let's talk about that category first. Any way of
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Speaker 2: letting them serve that can be seen by others is
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Speaker 2: an endorsement and therefore we cannot do it right. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: and that's kind of a fear we navigate with churches.
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Speaker 2: Often what those churches where the searchers get to after
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Speaker 2: some discernment around that is distinguishing between some roles that
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Speaker 2: are serving but not leading or representing the body of Christ, okay,
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Speaker 2: versus roles where you are serving, where you are leading,
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Speaker 2: or you are representing. And then that's kind of where
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Speaker 2: we make make that distinction. So and then it's kind
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Speaker 2: of I think some different questions about kind of LGBT
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Speaker 2: plus Christians who perhaps are transparent with their journey, but
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Speaker 2: have repented of their sins of kind of any same
6:28
Speaker 2: sex sexual activity they've participated in. And a whole other
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Speaker 2: conversation about people who maybe have medically transitioned have become
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Speaker 2: convinced that that wasn't God's best for them, but for
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Speaker 2: a variety of reasons haven't medically de transitioned. So I'll
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Speaker 2: just I'll pose it there. I'll let you jump in.
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Speaker 1: So let me back it all the way up to
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Speaker 1: the front part, because I think you said something really
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Speaker 1: important there, which is there needs There needs to be
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Speaker 1: clarity and consistency, and so would what I hear you
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Speaker 1: saying there is. Hey, Church, even though this may be
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Speaker 1: the topic in.
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Speaker 3: LGBTQ or someone who is.
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Speaker 1: Transitioning may be the impetus for you to begin thinking
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Speaker 1: about these things, they shouldn't be the only thing that
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Speaker 1: you think about with regard to this sort of service.
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Speaker 1: What we need to be thinking about is not service
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Speaker 1: as privilege necessarily, but how do we cultivate integrity within
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Speaker 1: the body of Christ and within individual Christians? And how
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Speaker 1: might serving detract from that cultivation of integrity. So, in
7:46
Speaker 1: other words, if we busy them in doing things right
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Speaker 1: but allow them to then you know, continue doing whatever
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Speaker 1: it is that they're doing and persistently disobey, you know,
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Speaker 1: God's word or run against the doctrine commitments of the church.
8:03
Speaker 1: Is that really effectively helping them? Are we really building
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Speaker 1: them up in the body of Christ? And so that's
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Speaker 1: part of what I hear you saying. Am I getting
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Speaker 1: that basically right?
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Speaker 2: Yeah? I understand that, you know. I mean, and I'm
8:16
Speaker 2: a therapist. I know that serving others and gratitude are
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Speaker 2: two of the best ways that we can push away
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Speaker 2: at our own depression. We can learn to connect with others.
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Speaker 2: I mean, if you're talking about someone who's getting to
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Speaker 2: know Jesus for the first time or back in church
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Speaker 2: for the first time, I mean, I think those are
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Speaker 2: great ways for people to kind of reconnect and go
8:39
Speaker 2: a little deeper. But you're right, it can become a
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Speaker 2: thing where that's supposed to be an on ramp to
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Speaker 2: then discipleship. And if people only just kind of stick
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Speaker 2: around and serve in kind of load discipleship ways, and
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Speaker 2: particularly if we set up kind of a church system
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Speaker 2: where we incentive advise that, Yeah, that doesn't seem like
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Speaker 2: that serves kind of discipleship.
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Speaker 1: Best, right, And then just giving that clarity around it
9:09
Speaker 1: to say, these are the roles that we view as
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Speaker 1: I liked your word. I think it was what you
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Speaker 1: said representational, right. These are roles that represent the church
9:22
Speaker 1: as opposed to roles that.
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Speaker 3: Are purely service.
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Speaker 1: And so that might for any given church extend from
9:31
Speaker 1: you know, all the way up to the elder board
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Speaker 1: that are you know, truly representing the church in pretty
9:37
Speaker 1: significant ways and have sometimes a fiduciary if not a
9:42
Speaker 1: missional sort of directive from the church to shepherd the congregation,
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Speaker 1: all the way down to even something like a greeter
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Speaker 1: at the door, yeah, and anywhere in between there the
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Speaker 1: church might say, hey, look, this person really does represent us.
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Speaker 1: This is the first phase somebody is going to see
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Speaker 1: when they walk in, and so we want to make
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Speaker 1: sure that this reflects more of I hesitate to say
10:10
Speaker 1: an ideal, but because that there is no ideal, but
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Speaker 1: more but it's more reflective of what we're shooting for.
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Speaker 3: Maybe as a church, how would you.
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Speaker 1: How do you help churches sort of navigate that kind
10:22
Speaker 1: of language, because it really isn't about an ideal. I
10:24
Speaker 1: don't that's a really lousy word, but I can't think
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Speaker 1: of a better one.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of So there's a lot of
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Speaker 2: ways to belong and serve without like representing right everyone,
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Speaker 2: what's available to everyone, worship attendance, small group participation, you know,
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Speaker 2: taking meals to people in their homes when they're sick
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Speaker 2: and sharing meals with other people, praying and receiving, prayer ministry,
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Speaker 2: receiving pastoral care, enjoying friendship you know, within the body
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Speaker 2: of Christ. And then there are meaningful ways that people
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Speaker 2: can serve that is not representative. Uh, it doesn't doesn't
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Speaker 2: It doesn't appear as if they are representing the church
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Speaker 2: and and kind of modeling. Hey, I'm leaning into becoming
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Speaker 2: more like Christ every day, set up and tear down
11:14
Speaker 2: any kind of mercy ministry that your church does, a'd
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Speaker 2: and support some logistics related stuff, some of the kind
11:21
Speaker 2: of behind the scenes hospitality teams, service projects, participating in
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Speaker 2: service projects. So I think all of those are ways
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Speaker 2: that people can can menially be a part of the
11:31
Speaker 2: work the mission of the church. But they're not representing
11:37
Speaker 2: and but but but there is kind of yeah, a
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Speaker 2: tier above that and not as in that we're trying
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Speaker 2: to make people second class Christians. But you know, Historically,
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Speaker 2: I think there's been something meaningful about membership and a church.
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Speaker 2: And I know membership is not in vogue these days,
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Speaker 2: but you can call it something else. We can say
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Speaker 2: covenant partners, we can say kind of in the family,
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Speaker 2: we can say bought in, we can we can but
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Speaker 2: come up with some phrase that is people who are
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Speaker 2: committed to praying for the mission of the church, committed
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Speaker 2: to tithing, committed to serving or leading in certain ways,
12:16
Speaker 2: and committed to their own discipleship. And we really encourage
12:21
Speaker 2: churches that we work with to have some kind of
12:24
Speaker 2: deeper bought in level of of kind of membership essentially,
12:29
Speaker 2: and then have some kind of gatekeeping class that people
12:33
Speaker 2: have to go through to kind of understand what does
12:36
Speaker 2: that mean to like lean in more at this church?
12:39
Speaker 2: What are you offering? What are you what are you
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Speaker 2: going to receive from us when you do that? And
12:43
Speaker 2: what are you offering to offer to give when you
12:45
Speaker 2: do that? And part of that is clarity about that
12:48
Speaker 2: mutual accountability and kind of for many churches, like a
12:51
Speaker 2: written kind of pledge uh to some of those things.
12:56
Speaker 2: And so I think that creates these opportunities to uh So,
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Speaker 2: then when you're upfront, and you're talking about different ways
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Speaker 2: to serve or lead. You're not saying the language people
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Speaker 2: here isn't like, you know, leading a Bible study or
13:14
Speaker 2: being a greeter is only reserved for those who aren't
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Speaker 2: sitting in these ways, right, Instead, you say being a
13:20
Speaker 2: small group leader, Like, if you want to be a
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Speaker 2: small group leader, if you want to be a greeterer,
13:24
Speaker 2: if you want to kind of be a part of
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Speaker 2: the body in some of those ways, we love for
13:28
Speaker 2: you to kind of kind of kind of lean into
13:31
Speaker 2: being a covenant partner of what we're doing at this church.
13:33
Speaker 2: And your next opportunity to lean in that way is
13:35
Speaker 2: this class next month, YadA, YadA, YadA. You know. Yeah,
13:39
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's some of the ways that some of
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Speaker 2: the churches we've worked with have navigated that.
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Speaker 1: So we've thus far we've kind of talked a little
13:46
Speaker 1: bit more about the what we might call the boundary
13:50
Speaker 1: setting or the prohibited boundaries. Sure at this point, one
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Speaker 1: of the things that I as I was thinking through
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Speaker 1: what to talk about on this episode was I get
14:03
Speaker 1: the impression that a lot of this is going to
14:07
Speaker 1: trigger pressures or critiques from outside organizations, whether that's other churches,
14:12
Speaker 1: whether that's the community at large, you know, and they're
14:16
Speaker 1: going to be looking in and saying, how is this appropriate.
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Speaker 3: That you have quote unquote these people.
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Speaker 1: And these people could be LGBTQ, could be transitioning people,
14:27
Speaker 1: it could be you know, it could be deforce. As
14:30
Speaker 1: you know, I've even had it with my wife and
14:33
Speaker 1: I have had it where where a to Hingham family
14:36
Speaker 1: and she has a career and we had kids and
14:38
Speaker 1: it was like, what are you doing with these people
14:40
Speaker 1: at the church. You know, it can be any of
14:43
Speaker 1: those kind of things, and so how do we positively
14:46
Speaker 1: think about messaging some of this constructing a real faithful,
14:52
Speaker 1: theologically faithful way of describing what it is that we're
14:57
Speaker 1: doing at this moment.
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Speaker 2: Are you particularly talking about from critics who might be
15:02
Speaker 2: a little bit more culturally conservative and think you're compromising
15:05
Speaker 2: too much.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's more where I'm concerned with it coming from.
15:09
Speaker 1: I mean, that's been my experience with a lot of
15:11
Speaker 1: this stuff is that you know, at least again in
15:15
Speaker 1: my experience, what I found is that people are trying
15:18
Speaker 1: to belong aren't the problem. They're far more understanding than
15:23
Speaker 1: the people outside who are looking in on this and
15:26
Speaker 1: are concerned with things like drift right right, you know,
15:31
Speaker 1: you're drifting somewhere that you shouldn't be. And it's like, well,
15:36
Speaker 1: there is probably a blurred boundary on these on a
15:39
Speaker 1: lot of these things, like you know, and they're going
15:42
Speaker 1: to be decisions that we have to discern one.
15:44
Speaker 3: Way or another.
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Speaker 1: But ultimately there has to be some sort of a
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Speaker 1: constructive story that we can talk about where you know,
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Speaker 1: we're emulating what it means to be the body of
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Speaker 1: Christ by allowing people to belong to this ministry and
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Speaker 1: in allowing them to belong to this ministry, encouraging them
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Speaker 1: not to be sinful but to be conformed more closely
16:06
Speaker 1: the image of Christ.
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Speaker 3: And that takes time.
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Speaker 2: Right yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, the language
16:13
Speaker 2: are using, you're probably familiar slash kind of drawing from
16:17
Speaker 2: the belong belief become paradigm. And I think that really
16:21
Speaker 2: is a helpful way that we can communicate it to critics.
16:24
Speaker 2: We could say that, listen, the church is supposed to
16:26
Speaker 2: be a place where anyone can come with their mess
16:29
Speaker 2: and they can get to know Jesus for the first time,
16:31
Speaker 2: or they can get to know Jesus again, and it
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Speaker 2: seems clear in the scripture is that Jesus let people,
16:39
Speaker 2: let people be among him and let people learn from him,
16:42
Speaker 2: and let people enjoy kind of companionship with kind of
16:45
Speaker 2: his circle of people, even even when they were kind
16:49
Speaker 2: of in sin and unrepentant. And it hadn't even been
16:53
Speaker 2: challenged yet by Christ. And yes, there's a moment where
16:58
Speaker 2: Jesus says, you know, leave it behind and follow me. Yeah,
17:02
Speaker 2: you do you want to be a part of this,
17:04
Speaker 2: this this big kingdom work project we're doing, and are
17:07
Speaker 2: you willing to say yes to the better things? And
17:09
Speaker 2: so you know, there there is so I think what
17:14
Speaker 2: what what we say about that is like, hey, there
17:16
Speaker 2: is a moment or an opportunity at our church for
17:21
Speaker 2: people to commit to leaning into serious being a serious disciple,
17:27
Speaker 2: to leaning into becoming more like Christ. And there are
17:29
Speaker 2: certain opportunities to lead and to represent the body of
17:33
Speaker 2: Christ that Yeah, we think it makes the most sense
17:35
Speaker 2: for that to be people who are serious about becoming
17:38
Speaker 2: more like Jesus, people who have said yes to serious discipleship.
17:41
Speaker 2: And we make that distinction. We're not afraid of making
17:44
Speaker 2: that decision. So we've got both, you know. Yeah, So
17:47
Speaker 2: hopefully that would be I think the challenging conversations can
17:52
Speaker 2: come up about, well, what about what the scriptures say
17:55
Speaker 2: about excommunication? Sure, isn't that biblical? Shouldn't we be doing that?
18:00
Speaker 2: And you know, I think in many ways the excommunication
18:07
Speaker 2: happened of people who had essentially become members of that
18:13
Speaker 2: church and had agreed to the mutual accountability of that church.
18:19
Speaker 2: And then we're refusing accountability but still claiming to represent
18:25
Speaker 2: the body and and so whereas there had to have
18:33
Speaker 2: been people even in the early Church who stood at
18:37
Speaker 2: the edges of of of of kind of services and
18:44
Speaker 2: didn't take communion when it was when it was happening,
18:47
Speaker 2: and eight with with the community. But people knew they
18:53
Speaker 2: were visiting, they were, they were, they were kind of
18:55
Speaker 2: giving this a look, those weren't the people they were excommunicating. Yeah,
19:00
Speaker 2: and so I yeah, I a full different conversation about
19:03
Speaker 2: among people who maybe commit to be those serious disciples
19:06
Speaker 2: in our church, commit to becoming more like Jesus, what
19:09
Speaker 2: does accountability look like there? But it seems like what
19:12
Speaker 2: the scriptures are talking about in terms of excommunication isn't
19:14
Speaker 2: about keeping visitors out who are in unrepentant sin.
19:21
Speaker 1: It's almost our own lack of clarity that has created
19:24
Speaker 1: part of the problem here, right, Because to your point,
19:29
Speaker 1: there used to be a much more robust membership process.
19:32
Speaker 1: I grew up a Lutheran and so I went through confirmation, right.
19:35
Speaker 1: Confirmation was that moment where you're confirming your commitment to
19:39
Speaker 1: the Lutheran Church and you go through a process and
19:42
Speaker 1: there's catechism and there's you know, there's understanding built in,
19:45
Speaker 1: and it was a long process. It wasn't like, you know,
19:47
Speaker 1: five minutes after a service and okay, you're in.
19:50
Speaker 3: You know, it was a process to go through. And
19:53
Speaker 3: even getting stepping.
19:55
Speaker 1: Away from membership in the Lutheran Church, you actually have
19:58
Speaker 1: to go in and like asked to be taken off. Yeah,
20:03
Speaker 1: you know, And so it's it's it's not just clerical.
20:07
Speaker 1: It was much more formative than that. But I think
20:11
Speaker 1: without that I resonate with what you're saying, because I
20:13
Speaker 1: think without that process, we never really get a commitment
20:17
Speaker 1: from people that they're going to be here right, and
20:21
Speaker 1: that they're going to sit under this you know, local
20:24
Speaker 1: body of authority which in turn sits under God, and
20:27
Speaker 1: that they are going to be subject to the accountability
20:29
Speaker 1: of that group. What we normally get is sort of
20:33
Speaker 1: a mixed multitude of folks, some of whom are like, yeah,
20:38
Speaker 1: I'm not going to commit, but I'm here. I'll listen,
20:41
Speaker 1: you know, But ultimately I can go wherever I want, right,
20:45
Speaker 1: Like much more of a voluntary society than a real committed,
20:50
Speaker 1: hey we're here, we're going to do this together, local
20:53
Speaker 1: level kind of stuff, because I think what you're saying
20:55
Speaker 1: resonates me.
20:56
Speaker 3: I did a piece on the.
21:00
Speaker 1: He gets a campaign, and people were really frustrated about that.
21:05
Speaker 3: And I kind of made the same point you did.
21:07
Speaker 1: You run into John six and Jesus has all these
21:09
Speaker 1: people following him, and then all of a sudden, he says,
21:13
Speaker 1: you need to eat my flesh and drink my blood,
21:15
Speaker 1: and it says and many of his disciples left him
21:17
Speaker 1: that day. And I just think that there's a time
21:21
Speaker 1: where people really like Jesus. He was popular and interesting
21:26
Speaker 1: and people were drawn to him, and then there's a
21:29
Speaker 1: point where things get hard enough where you say this
21:32
Speaker 1: guy's a little too crazy for me. I'm going to
21:34
Speaker 1: step away, or this guy's my kind of crazy. Now
21:37
Speaker 1: I'm going to jump right.
21:37
Speaker 3: In, you know.
21:39
Speaker 1: And so I think there's something too that that initial
21:44
Speaker 1: Let's provide clarity, Let's you know, let's give people really
21:49
Speaker 1: deep understandings, be clear, be consistent, and help people understand
21:54
Speaker 1: how what it means to belong to the church as
21:57
Speaker 1: opposed to just attend the church, right right, Yeah, yeah,
22:02
Speaker 1: really interesting.
22:04
Speaker 2: And I understand the impulse to move away from membership,
22:07
Speaker 2: and I understand in more non denominational contemporary worship spaces
22:13
Speaker 2: the ick that people have or it's kind of the
22:15
Speaker 2: whole membership thing. So those ways we can i mean
22:18
Speaker 2: essentially brand it a little differently, you know, or we
22:22
Speaker 2: can just or we could just not have a membership category,
22:25
Speaker 2: but we could have a leadership category and we just
22:28
Speaker 2: have a kind of a leadership onboarding and leadership kind
22:32
Speaker 2: of commitment uh space, which is what a lot of
22:34
Speaker 2: churches do, and then just call certain kinds of representing
22:38
Speaker 2: the church even as a greater leadership leadership. That's one
22:43
Speaker 2: way of also doing that.
22:44
Speaker 1: So the idea would be that there's a there's a
22:46
Speaker 1: point where if you're going to do this, you have
22:48
Speaker 1: to jump in and and that that seems reasonable to me. Yeah,
22:56
Speaker 1: And it does make a distinction that I think is
22:58
Speaker 1: actually really important, and it avoids the bait and switch
23:02
Speaker 1: you were talking about. But it also allows people who
23:05
Speaker 1: maybe are just trying to figure things out, maybe they're
23:08
Speaker 1: not at a point in their life where they really
23:10
Speaker 1: even understand what it looks like to follow Christ, can
23:13
Speaker 1: still be around this and experience the love and generosity
23:19
Speaker 1: of that community belong to it before they ever have
23:24
Speaker 1: to make their choice, right, yeah.
23:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it also avoids, or hopefully avoids circumstances where
23:32
Speaker 2: people feel like they're being held accountable when they never
23:36
Speaker 2: agreed to it and trace it that and tell damaging
23:41
Speaker 2: stories about the church afterwards. If there is a clear
23:44
Speaker 2: like this, there's opt in, and part of the opting
23:47
Speaker 2: in is you are agreeing to mutual accountability. Some people
23:52
Speaker 2: will still later when they receive the accountability, dislike it
23:56
Speaker 2: and tell certain stories about it, but hopefully it at
23:59
Speaker 2: least reduces it is some of the kind of chafing
24:01
Speaker 2: at that.
24:02
Speaker 1: So yeah, So, aside from more of these formal structural aspects,
24:08
Speaker 1: what in your mind is helpful to create more of
24:12
Speaker 1: that informal belonging for folks And again I'm not just
24:16
Speaker 1: thinking of like lgbt t Q transgender folks, I'm even
24:21
Speaker 1: thinking maybe even younger generations or people who have been
24:26
Speaker 1: you know, sort of shunned in other ways by Christian communities,
24:29
Speaker 1: Like what needs to happen, What sort of ethos needs
24:32
Speaker 1: to be created within a church to actually be welcoming
24:35
Speaker 1: to folks?
24:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So a couple things come to mind.
24:41
Speaker 2: One is that you know, what we have noticed in
24:45
Speaker 2: the kind of work we're we are doing at EQUIP
24:48
Speaker 2: and the churches is that the enemy is very cleverly
24:53
Speaker 2: these days using LGBT plus topics kind of the me
24:58
Speaker 2: too movement and church or general related to that stuff,
25:02
Speaker 2: racial injustice, as as wedges to kind of push people
25:08
Speaker 2: away from Jesus, embarrassed people about Christianity, about Christians, about
25:13
Speaker 2: the church, and push them away from Jesus. And so
25:17
Speaker 2: I do think a big part of the belonging is
25:21
Speaker 2: being in a space where people can belong, as being
25:22
Speaker 2: a space where people feel less embarrassed of Jesus and
25:27
Speaker 2: by our churches engaging in these topics not because they're
25:31
Speaker 2: more important than the Gospel, but if they're becoming wedge
25:34
Speaker 2: issues that the enemy is using to push people away
25:36
Speaker 2: from the Gospel, then it's like of gospel importance that
25:40
Speaker 2: we address them winsomely and with humility, also with clarity.
25:46
Speaker 2: So I think that may not be the first people
25:49
Speaker 2: to think of as like how to create belonging talk
25:51
Speaker 2: about the most controversial topics, but it is one of
25:55
Speaker 2: the reasons why people are like particularly like the gen
25:59
Speaker 2: z in Jenafa, yearning for authenticity and for clarity even
26:03
Speaker 2: if they disagree, and for like sturdiness and substance, even
26:06
Speaker 2: if they disagree. I think that that's going to draw people.
26:12
Speaker 2: I also, I was just talking to somebody at my
26:15
Speaker 2: church about this the other day, and then church talking
26:19
Speaker 2: about the church partner of Equipse that is in a
26:22
Speaker 2: little bit more rural space, and they still do Wednesday
26:28
Speaker 2: night classes at the church every Wednesday, Sunday night classes
26:32
Speaker 2: at the church every Sunday. There's pot luck dinners before
26:35
Speaker 2: the Wednesday and Sunday night gatherings and things. There's a
26:39
Speaker 2: lot of community that they have because they actually physically
26:43
Speaker 2: gather together at the church. And you know, okay, if
26:46
Speaker 2: you're a church of like ten thousand people or even
26:48
Speaker 2: a thousand people, that's not very doable. But there's a
26:52
Speaker 2: lot of churches with three hundred people who are only
26:55
Speaker 2: gathering in small groups and separate homes outside of Sunday morning.
27:00
Speaker 2: And I think there's some ways in which that is
27:05
Speaker 2: more intimate. And I understand the move to like small
27:11
Speaker 2: groups and homes and spending less time in our churches
27:14
Speaker 2: over the past decade, but I think there's some ways that,
27:19
Speaker 2: like everyone knows, small groups can become kind of cliquy,
27:23
Speaker 2: and small groups can be a little scary to like
27:25
Speaker 2: enter into in a new way. So I just I
27:29
Speaker 2: don't know. I wonder if like more big group stuff
27:31
Speaker 2: all together at church over meals, you know, is lower
27:36
Speaker 2: some barriers to entry there.
27:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's hard to believe that it wouldn't.
27:41
Speaker 1: I I was just had a conversation with this economist.
27:47
Speaker 1: She and a couple other people had written an article
27:50
Speaker 1: called Deaths of Despair, and it is based on their
27:53
Speaker 1: research into what they call blue laws. There were these
27:57
Speaker 1: laws that had kept retail closed on Sundays, and they
28:03
Speaker 1: started to be released, you know, they started to get
28:07
Speaker 1: rid of the laws state by state over a period
28:09
Speaker 1: of several years. And what they saw was a correlation
28:13
Speaker 1: between the elimination of these blue laws, where retail could
28:17
Speaker 1: then be open and an increase in what they call
28:21
Speaker 1: deaths of despair, which was liver or promise from alcohol,
28:27
Speaker 1: drug deaths, and suicides. And I found it so compelling
28:32
Speaker 1: because and it wasn't like, hey, this is what caused it, right,
28:36
Speaker 1: but the decoupling of religion as one of the social
28:43
Speaker 1: arenas where people could actually connect one with another and
28:49
Speaker 1: potentially cope with the loneliness that they otherwise felt to
28:53
Speaker 1: derive some sort of symbolic.
28:54
Speaker 3: Meaning about life was really well correlated.
28:59
Speaker 1: I mean, could show in the state that released these
29:02
Speaker 1: blue laws the deaths went up.
29:06
Speaker 3: Well before a state that didn't.
29:08
Speaker 1: Sure, you know, it's just sort of fascinating to watch,
29:11
Speaker 1: and so I think, you know, you're really hitting on
29:13
Speaker 1: something there, because it's there has to be a sense
29:18
Speaker 1: of community developed.
29:21
Speaker 3: And I do agree that.
29:22
Speaker 1: I think, you know, small groups tend to be what
29:24
Speaker 1: people point to when they talk about community in a church.
29:28
Speaker 1: Worship on Sundays doesn't usually do that, can but it
29:32
Speaker 1: doesn't usually it's sort of you're in, you're out. It's
29:34
Speaker 1: gotten a little transactional, right, And so having service events,
29:40
Speaker 1: having dinners, having these other things that you can do
29:43
Speaker 1: alongside where more people can participate seems intuitive to me.
29:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, if like Wendell Berry or somebody
29:50
Speaker 2: like that was in this conversation, they talk about the
29:52
Speaker 2: importance of place right and like particularly prioritize if it's
29:58
Speaker 2: not gathering in your church, gathering in the closest coffee shop,
30:03
Speaker 2: or serving your neighborhood the closest physically closest service opportunity.
30:08
Speaker 2: I mean, really like investing in the place of your
30:11
Speaker 2: church and or what's around it, encouraging people, like not
30:14
Speaker 2: in a culty way, but like in a what if
30:17
Speaker 2: you could walk to these what if you could walk
30:18
Speaker 2: to church? What if you could walk to these events way?
30:21
Speaker 2: Encourage people to move closer to the church, particularly if
30:23
Speaker 2: they're young adults and and they're living in apartments and
30:26
Speaker 2: they kind of have some mobility in those ways. Yeah,
30:29
Speaker 2: I just I think that could be pretty cool.
30:32
Speaker 1: Sort of an odd, an adjacent question, a tangential question.
30:37
Speaker 1: I guess you mentioned, you know, gen Z sort of
30:41
Speaker 1: yearning for some sort of depth and substance within a church.
30:47
Speaker 1: We're starting to talk about doing a series on this
30:50
Speaker 1: sort of evangelical the conversion of evangelicals to Catholic and
30:55
Speaker 1: or Eastern Orthodox in greater numbers. And part of what
31:00
Speaker 1: that conversation entails is just this question of has have
31:05
Speaker 1: evangelical churches so decoupled themselves from ritual, from tradition, from
31:12
Speaker 1: history and leaned so heavily on sort of the personal
31:17
Speaker 1: application and the individual relationship with Christ, which obviously you
31:21
Speaker 1: don't want to get rid of, But there's there's a
31:24
Speaker 1: matter of emphasis. Have we tipped too far this other
31:26
Speaker 1: way so that now what we're essentially giving people is
31:30
Speaker 1: an independent relationship with Christ that no longer needs to
31:34
Speaker 1: be tied in to a community of belonging and it's
31:38
Speaker 1: leaving a real whole. Does that bear out in your
31:41
Speaker 1: kind of experience and consulting with equipment, It does?
31:46
Speaker 2: And I wouldn't I would encourage churches not to be
31:51
Speaker 2: too hard on themselves when it comes to this, you know,
31:53
Speaker 2: I guess I think in some ways there there were
31:56
Speaker 2: things about mainline Christianity in the seventies and eighties and
31:59
Speaker 2: nine that felt lacking and felt and there's a reason
32:04
Speaker 2: why kind of non denominational churches grew in the ways
32:07
Speaker 2: they did is that they reacted to a need. They
32:09
Speaker 2: met a need right, They they innovated right, and and
32:13
Speaker 2: then it's the but the pendulum always keeps swinging right,
32:16
Speaker 2: and so it just happens to be that some spaces
32:19
Speaker 2: that have can kind of continued to be the same
32:21
Speaker 2: way for a long time. Now they're in vogue. And
32:24
Speaker 2: but listen, I go to a an Anglican church that
32:29
Speaker 2: is pretty liturgical, and I am a very Catholic leaning
32:34
Speaker 2: Anglican even in that way. And if I could go
32:36
Speaker 2: to a very high church Anglo Catholic church in Naturville,
32:39
Speaker 2: I would, to believe you, I love that stuff, but
32:42
Speaker 2: in some ways like it's what's in right now and
32:45
Speaker 2: then may not be in in a decade. So I
32:48
Speaker 2: would encourage like non denominational spaces and contemporary more contemporary
32:55
Speaker 2: worship spaces and like less saturgical spaces not to overreact.
33:00
Speaker 2: But there has been some neat ways where a lot
33:02
Speaker 2: of non de andam Baptist kind of used to be
33:07
Speaker 2: lower church Presbyterians that that I know of are doing
33:11
Speaker 2: a lot of bringing those elements back into their churches.
33:15
Speaker 2: They're doing corporate prayer and confession, They're saying the Nicing
33:18
Speaker 2: Creed as a whole body of believers. They're doing communion
33:21
Speaker 2: more often, They're incorporating more older hymns and kind of
33:26
Speaker 2: and and kind of doing the music, alternating with more
33:29
Speaker 2: contemporary sets and more traditional sets in terms of the
33:32
Speaker 2: music and mixing it together. So right, I think that's great.
33:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I tend to agree with you. I mean,
33:38
Speaker 1: like I said, I grew up Lutheran and so but
33:41
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I wouldn't have said I accepted Christ until
33:43
Speaker 1: I was in college through campus crusade. And so while
33:48
Speaker 1: I still and even back then appreciated the liturgy and
33:53
Speaker 1: of what of it I understood, but I mean I
33:56
Speaker 1: can still recite the Nicing Creed.
33:58
Speaker 3: I you know, I know a lot of those things.
34:00
Speaker 1: When I go back to a Lutheran church now, I
34:02
Speaker 1: can basically just fall right back into that liturgy, and
34:05
Speaker 1: I find that to be really great. Like I loved it,
34:09
Speaker 1: but at the same time I needed something different. And
34:12
Speaker 1: so yeah, I agree with you. I don't think it's
34:13
Speaker 1: a question of hey, let's swing the pendulum all the
34:16
Speaker 1: way back the other way, right, But there is a
34:21
Speaker 1: sense in which there needs to be a response, not
34:23
Speaker 1: a reaction, but a response. And you sort of step
34:26
Speaker 1: back and say, if we want people to feel as
34:29
Speaker 1: if they belong here. Part of what we need to
34:32
Speaker 1: attend to is this depth that they feel like we're lacking.
34:37
Speaker 1: And so how do we bring some of that back?
34:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, without you know, without air, without overcorrecting, you know,
34:45
Speaker 2: without correcting, yes, and knowing that different places will fit
34:48
Speaker 2: best for different people. Also that like, we'll see how
34:52
Speaker 2: much And again, as a very Catholic leaning Anglican, I'm
34:55
Speaker 2: not hating on that stuff, but I'm curious to see
34:59
Speaker 2: in a couple years even how much is this a
35:02
Speaker 2: fad in some ways? How much of this is like
35:05
Speaker 2: some gen Z and jen alpha folk who it's like
35:11
Speaker 2: cool to go to the space that seems to care
35:14
Speaker 2: least about trying to get you to like them, and
35:18
Speaker 2: that's fun for a season, and then that's like not
35:22
Speaker 2: fun anymore. I don't know, we'll see, Like what I'm
35:25
Speaker 2: just there's a lot of mixed motivations. Some of the
35:28
Speaker 2: motivations are really genuine, will lead to long term rooted
35:32
Speaker 2: faith in those traditions. That's going to beautiful. Some of
35:34
Speaker 2: it's maybe something different, and we'll see what happens with that,
35:37
Speaker 2: you know, And there may be ways that more like
35:40
Speaker 2: non denominous national spaces are better positioned to then meet
35:46
Speaker 2: those people in what they're for next.
35:49
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I just think it's important.
35:52
Speaker 1: I think it's anytime we see these trends. Really, anytime
35:57
Speaker 1: we see I think, any conflict within the Christian community,
36:00
Speaker 1: any sort of tension within the Christian community, it's a
36:03
Speaker 1: good time just to step back and reflect on what
36:06
Speaker 1: we can or can't do to serve that, you know,
36:09
Speaker 1: what we can or can't do to resolve those tensions.
36:12
Speaker 1: And I don't really begrudge any church, you know, they
36:16
Speaker 1: if they step back and say there's nothing we're going
36:18
Speaker 1: to change, it's like more power to you, right.
36:22
Speaker 2: You know.
36:23
Speaker 1: I I am from a relatively rural area, and so
36:30
Speaker 1: it's getting to that point where a lot of the
36:31
Speaker 1: churches in the area are aging out. And so I
36:35
Speaker 1: just talked to actually my father in law here a
36:37
Speaker 1: few weeks ago, and he was talking about his church
36:40
Speaker 1: and it's you know, dwindling in size, and you know,
36:43
Speaker 1: they're not exactly sure what they're going to do, and
36:46
Speaker 1: and I just told him, I'm like, there's nothing wrong
36:49
Speaker 1: with the church ending, Like that's okay. I mean, it
36:54
Speaker 1: served its community for a very very long time. And
36:57
Speaker 1: as that community shrinks, Like, it's okay that the church shrinks, right,
37:03
Speaker 1: it really is okay, it can end, Like there can
37:07
Speaker 1: be an end of watch here, right, not for every church,
37:11
Speaker 1: but for specific churches, there can be an end of
37:14
Speaker 1: watch and that's okay, Like there shouldn't be any necessary
37:18
Speaker 1: impetus to sit back and go, we've got to grow
37:20
Speaker 1: this thing and to start doing things that are really
37:24
Speaker 1: going to, you know, not really fit with who the
37:28
Speaker 1: church is now. If that ethos is there, great, But
37:31
Speaker 1: if it's not, end to watch, isn't a bad thing? Yeah,
37:35
Speaker 1: Like if we kind of make it a bad thing
37:37
Speaker 1: but it's not really a bad thing.
37:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it makes sense that people would be sad
37:41
Speaker 2: about it, but it doesn't mean that the big CE
37:45
Speaker 2: church is dying. It makes it the big C church
37:48
Speaker 2: is adapting. So yeah, And I think that's an interesting
37:54
Speaker 2: way that that comes up even in kind of the
37:55
Speaker 2: ministry that that we do at EQUIP because there's certainly
37:59
Speaker 2: years when pastors would come to me in private and
38:02
Speaker 2: they would say, Okay, be honest with me, do you
38:05
Speaker 2: think every church is just going to have a gay
38:07
Speaker 2: affirming theology in five years? And this is just the
38:11
Speaker 2: beginning of the end dot right. And what I told
38:15
Speaker 2: them then was, well why And I think if we
38:18
Speaker 2: look at the church in Europe, for example, the church
38:22
Speaker 2: that persisted is smaller, but the church is persisted there
38:25
Speaker 2: as a church that you know, teaches the historic Christian
38:28
Speaker 2: sexual ethic among other things for the most part. Also,
38:32
Speaker 2: America is not Europe there, so they may go a
38:36
Speaker 2: different way. But I I, you know, what this would
38:40
Speaker 2: have been five years ago, you know, said, what I
38:42
Speaker 2: see is that like a lot of kind of younger
38:47
Speaker 2: people who leave historic Christian sexual ethic churches and go
38:50
Speaker 2: to kind of a revisionist sexual ethic churches. They only
38:54
Speaker 2: go there for like a year or two and then
38:55
Speaker 2: they just kind of leave church altogether. And so the
38:59
Speaker 2: kind of like gay affirming churches, the kind of more
39:02
Speaker 2: progressive mainline spaces when I visit them. When I when
39:07
Speaker 2: I visited them, they seem mostly filled with older, straight
39:11
Speaker 2: people who find a revision of sexual ethic to be nicer.
39:17
Speaker 2: But it's not like it's drawn tons of young people
39:19
Speaker 2: who stick around. And then we've seen over the past
39:24
Speaker 2: five years the kind of numbers for these kind of
39:26
Speaker 2: more progressive mainline Protestant denominations just plummeting. Yeah, and and
39:33
Speaker 2: and and there's not like there's these large revision of
39:36
Speaker 2: sexual ethic you know, non denom evangelical churches popping up either.
39:39
Speaker 2: So I guess I just say, like, and not that numbers,
39:45
Speaker 2: not that not that there has to be growth in
39:47
Speaker 2: order to believe that the Holy Spirit has power. But
39:51
Speaker 2: even someone who does this work in LGBT plus topics,
39:54
Speaker 2: I see that the places that are that are leaning
39:58
Speaker 2: into God's wisdom even at times when it feels culturally unpopular,
40:02
Speaker 2: and doing it with compassion, doing it winsomely. They're persisting,
40:07
Speaker 2: you know, like long term, God's truth wins out and
40:13
Speaker 2: even within generations. So yeah, yeah, I don't think we
40:17
Speaker 2: have to worry too much about the micro trends or
40:19
Speaker 2: don't overreact to the micro trends.
40:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think your point's well taken.
40:23
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the worry that I see
40:26
Speaker 1: in people is that drift, right, But I think it's
40:31
Speaker 1: actually really encouraging to hear the pastors would even come
40:34
Speaker 1: to you and talk about it. Right, because you don't affirm,
40:38
Speaker 1: you know, you don't you don't advocate for a gay
40:40
Speaker 1: affirming position. What you're trying to get churches to do
40:46
Speaker 1: is recognize that this is just part of the texture
40:49
Speaker 1: of ministry right now. Yeah, it's part of what we
40:52
Speaker 1: deal with, and so you need to have more than
40:56
Speaker 1: a position on it, you know, a biblical affirmation and
41:00
Speaker 1: you know that you can point to. You've actually got
41:03
Speaker 1: to think this through because it is going to hit
41:06
Speaker 1: you in practical areas. And probably the bigger concern I
41:10
Speaker 1: would argue is not that we're going to see this
41:13
Speaker 1: explosion of gay affirming churches, but that the churches that
41:19
Speaker 1: hold to a historic Christian ethic have become so marginalized
41:24
Speaker 1: and uncompelling that there's no real alternative. And I think
41:29
Speaker 1: that's part of what I picked it up in our
41:32
Speaker 1: last conversation. You know, you've done a good job expressing
41:35
Speaker 1: you here too, Like what you're trying to do is
41:37
Speaker 1: help churches be that alternative and think it through in
41:41
Speaker 1: a smart and effective way that is faithful to the Gospel,
41:45
Speaker 1: but also recognizing, like what I'm calling the texture of
41:49
Speaker 1: what you're doing in ministry, these things are going to
41:51
Speaker 1: come up.
41:51
Speaker 3: You need to think it through. How are you going
41:54
Speaker 3: to deal with them?
41:56
Speaker 1: And if you haven't, you're probably going to be caught,
42:00
Speaker 1: you know, on your back foot, right right.
42:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I don't think our churches should abandon a
42:05
Speaker 2: biblical sexual ethic or a historic Christian sexual ethic. But
42:09
Speaker 2: on the other stream, I don't think we should go
42:11
Speaker 2: back to sticking our heads in the sand or flirt
42:14
Speaker 2: with a prey. The gay away theology again that we
42:17
Speaker 2: know did not work and led to loss of life
42:20
Speaker 2: and loss of faith, and I think both of those
42:23
Speaker 2: are risks that we need to watch out for, and
42:26
Speaker 2: I think instead, right, the solution is continue to hold
42:28
Speaker 2: a historic Christian sexual ethic, teach it. But it's but
42:32
Speaker 2: just believing it is not enough. Just having it written
42:34
Speaker 2: down on your website is not enough. What's much more
42:38
Speaker 2: important is how are we doing discipleship around that? How
42:41
Speaker 2: are we making sure that everyone in our churches has
42:43
Speaker 2: the support they need to thrive according to God's wisdom
42:47
Speaker 2: for their gender and sexuality. And I think our churches
42:50
Speaker 2: can do more when it comes to that, and not
42:52
Speaker 2: because it's like a problem to be solved, because it'll
42:56
Speaker 2: lead to more health and thriving and kingdom work and
42:59
Speaker 2: transformation in our cities. So like it's good, it's good
43:02
Speaker 2: work to be doing.
43:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think of it.
43:07
Speaker 1: You know, Jesus doesn't ignore the prostitutes. You know, he's
43:10
Speaker 1: not ignoring the tax collectors. He's not ignoring you know,
43:14
Speaker 1: he's not ignoring the sinners.
43:15
Speaker 3: He's going to them.
43:16
Speaker 1: And so that is not something that I picture Jesus going,
43:20
Speaker 1: you know, it's really great that we have all these
43:22
Speaker 1: sinners around. I don't think he would say that, but
43:25
Speaker 1: I think he recognizes within his historical context that they're there,
43:29
Speaker 1: and he doesn't shy away from them. And that's a
43:32
Speaker 1: very different approach than than as you're saying, stick your
43:35
Speaker 1: head in the sand, you know, or you know, sort
43:38
Speaker 1: of you know, isolate yourself from it. I mean, Jesus
43:42
Speaker 1: just seemed like he was in this historic situation and
43:45
Speaker 1: this is what I have to deal with. This is
43:47
Speaker 1: where I'm doing ministry. I'm going to accept it and
43:51
Speaker 1: be faithful within it.
43:52
Speaker 2: YEA, well, and I'll hop back on my my favorite
43:56
Speaker 2: soapbox here one little last time. But that LGBT plus
44:01
Speaker 2: people aren't just out there outside of our churches, right.
44:05
Speaker 2: Most importantly, we've got kids in our pews who, by
44:09
Speaker 2: no fault of their own and no fault of their parents,
44:12
Speaker 2: as they go through puberty, some of them are going
44:15
Speaker 2: to notice that the ways that the brokenness of the
44:17
Speaker 2: world has impacted them is that they develop same sex
44:20
Speaker 2: attractions or gender incongruence. Have our churches what they've heard
44:27
Speaker 2: the years before that has it set them up to
44:31
Speaker 2: be afraid of what God has for them and afraid
44:35
Speaker 2: of what their parents might say, and to hide for
44:39
Speaker 2: five plus years and make sense of these important questions,
44:44
Speaker 2: important discipleship questions all by themselves or with TikTok or
44:47
Speaker 2: with the lives of the enemy, or has what they've
44:50
Speaker 2: heard before going through puberty reassured them that they can
44:56
Speaker 2: tell their parents, They can tell their pastors that God
44:59
Speaker 2: is not surprised, that God has good wisdom for them,
45:03
Speaker 2: that their parents don't want them to do it, make
45:06
Speaker 2: sense of this alone, that they can share and that
45:10
Speaker 2: they can embrace God's wisdom and thrive for a lifetime.
45:13
Speaker 2: That's I think the most important LGBTs plus ministry we
45:16
Speaker 2: can do is the kids in our pews.
45:20
Speaker 3: So really good reminder, bro.
45:23
Speaker 1: I mean, I've had a few people on lately about
45:27
Speaker 1: how to talk about kids and sex, and one of
45:31
Speaker 1: the ladies, Lori Kreeg, had her on and she just
45:37
Speaker 1: has such an amazing perspective on this. It's like, you know,
45:40
Speaker 1: don't you know she ties it all in with what
45:43
Speaker 1: does it mean to be in the image of God?
45:44
Speaker 1: And what is our mission here? It's you know, sex
45:47
Speaker 1: is certainly a part of God's good creation that we
45:50
Speaker 1: can enjoy within the limitations of it. But her advocacy
45:54
Speaker 1: was keep them on purpose, like give them something to
45:57
Speaker 1: live for. That's compelling an interesting and so I hear
46:02
Speaker 1: you echoing that and really appreciate that reminder that they're
46:06
Speaker 1: not just these people are all centers, are not just
46:09
Speaker 1: out there, they're also with us. And you know, our
46:14
Speaker 1: role as church is to build up the Body of Christ,
46:17
Speaker 1: and we do that numerically by bringing in new members,
46:20
Speaker 1: but we also do that in a spiritually formative way
46:24
Speaker 1: by growing people up into maturity.
46:26
Speaker 2: And so amen to that.
46:29
Speaker 3: Very good man.
46:30
Speaker 1: Well, tell us a little bit about I mean, where
46:33
Speaker 1: can people talk talk a little bit about where they
46:36
Speaker 1: can connect with you, where they can find your ministry,
46:39
Speaker 1: all that kind of good fun stuff.
46:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, particularly because we've talked a little bit of shop
46:43
Speaker 2: today in terms of some of the challenges that pastors face.
46:47
Speaker 2: I'll just say right. My day job is with a
46:50
Speaker 2: ministry called EQUIP and we've worked with over forty thousand
46:54
Speaker 2: Christian leaders and parents over the past decade or so
46:59
Speaker 2: to help to make LGBT plus topics a win for
47:02
Speaker 2: the gospel according to a biblical sexual ethic. So feel
47:05
Speaker 2: free to reach out to me at equip your community
47:09
Speaker 2: dot org and would love to hop on a zoom
47:13
Speaker 2: with any pastor and just you know, for free, you know,
47:17
Speaker 2: no expectations, no commitments, just talk for an hour about
47:21
Speaker 2: the challenge that you're facing in your church and if
47:22
Speaker 2: there's any way I can be I can be helpful.
47:25
Speaker 2: And then yeah, I get to post about a lot
47:28
Speaker 2: of this stuff and write about it and so on
47:31
Speaker 2: socials you know, Instagram, X whatnot. You can find me
47:36
Speaker 2: at Peter l vulk And that's all spelled funny. My
47:40
Speaker 2: first name is spelled p I E T e R
47:44
Speaker 2: an extra i in there Ella's and lyon v as
47:48
Speaker 2: in Victor A l K at Peter l vulk. And
47:53
Speaker 2: that's also where I'm at on substack. So there's a
47:56
Speaker 2: lot of these kind of questions we've gotten into today
47:59
Speaker 2: that I'm that I'm kind of rating out on stack.
48:01
Speaker 2: If that's where pastors and parents are learning these days.
48:03
Speaker 2: So would love to connect. Love to answer people's questions
48:06
Speaker 2: and me a resource. However, I can.
48:08
Speaker 1: Be well, if you didn't have a pen and we're
48:12
Speaker 1: writing all that down while you're listening to this in
48:14
Speaker 1: the car, don't worry. You can check out the episode description.
48:17
Speaker 1: All the links will be there. I just encourage you
48:20
Speaker 1: if you're somebody who's leading a church or involved in
48:22
Speaker 1: your church and you're struggling with these issues. I've found
48:25
Speaker 1: Peter to be a great source of wisdom on this
48:28
Speaker 1: and I think it's needed. So if you're a church
48:32
Speaker 1: that's struggling with this, please feel free reach out to him.
48:35
Speaker 1: As he said, take his invitation as genuine and get
48:39
Speaker 1: some help to meet the needs of your community and
48:42
Speaker 1: your church. I think you won't be disappointed that you
48:45
Speaker 1: do it. So Peter, thanks man for being here. It's
48:48
Speaker 1: always it's always interesting to talk with you. I think
48:51
Speaker 1: you just bring a whole different perspective on these matters
48:54
Speaker 1: and it's always refreshing and I so appreciate it.
48:57
Speaker 3: So thanks very much for being on the show again.
48:59
Speaker 2: Well, you're welcome them. I appreciate the opportunity very cool.
49:03
Speaker 1: Well, we will catch everybody on the next episode of
49:06
Speaker 1: Thinking Christian.
49:07
Speaker 3: Take care bye.
49:09
Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the
49:11
Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on
49:13
Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
49:16
Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
49:20
Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.