Latest / The Fourcast / Inside the Israel and Gaza peace deal - what happens next?

Transcript

Inside the Israel and Gaza peace deal - what happens next? · The Fourcast

0:00
It took me a long time to convince Hamas you have to talk
0:03
to Trump. He's the person that you got to
0:05
convince. Trump has an unprecedented style
0:08
of negotiations and diplomacy. We've never seen anything like
0:12
it before. I've never seen anything like it
0:14
before. The agreement had the vaguest
0:16
possible commitment to a road towards a Palestinian.
0:21
State. Yeah, forget it.
0:22
As long as Netanyahu's in power, forget it.
0:24
Ask anyone in this country who won this war.
0:26
I don't think we can talk about winners of this war.
0:28
Everyone lost. Hello, and welcome to the
0:34
Forecast. We're in Jerusalem today to talk
0:37
to Gershwin Baskin. Now, Gershwin is someone we
0:39
speak to quite a lot on Channel 4 News.
0:41
He is an Israeli negotiator. He's been intimately involved in
0:46
the events that have brought about this first stage of the
0:51
Trump plan, and he is also an advocate for A2 State Solution.
0:57
You say this is a big opportunity for both sides.
1:00
This is a very big opportunity. For one, after two horrible
1:04
years, the war is over, and this is the most important thing that
1:08
we can talk about this morning. The declaration by both Israel
1:11
and Hamas, and of course the United States, Qatar, Egypt and
1:14
Turkey that the war is over is different from every other phase
1:19
of ceasefire that we've seen throughout the past two years.
1:22
This is the end of the war. The hostages will be coming home
1:25
in the next days. Palestinian prisoners will be
1:28
released, and then we'll see the emergence of everything that has
1:31
to happen on the day after, including the establishment of a
1:34
new Palestinian government, not Hamas, A Palestinian security
1:39
force, not Hamas, the multinational force that will be
1:43
on the ground in Gaza, including troops from Arab countries and
1:48
European countries and others. And this is the primary
1:51
guarantee that Israel won't attack Gaza again or that Hamas
1:55
won't attack Israel again. There are other elements in
1:58
there that the details need to be worked out.
2:00
The Egyptians are largely taking responsibility for the details,
2:03
and the Egyptians are good at that.
2:05
And, and this agreement is backed by the entire world,
2:08
including most Israelis and most Palestinians.
2:12
And do you believe all of that is going to happen in your
2:14
heart? I mean, there's enormous
2:15
scepticism, of course. This is essentially just a, you
2:19
know, a hostage exchange and and a ceasefire and that, you know,
2:23
they can just go back to it whenever they want.
2:25
So let let me put this with a big reservation.
2:28
I am an optimist. It's part of my DNA.
2:31
So it's difficult for me to sit here this morning and say to
2:33
you, no, it's not going to work. It's going to work.
2:36
It's going to work because there is a determination that it has
2:38
to work. There are more than two million
2:40
homeless people in Gaza today. Gaza's destroyed.
2:43
There's no infrastructure, there's no water, there's no
2:46
food. There's no roads, there's no
2:47
sewage, no schools, no universities, no nothing.
2:51
Gaza is destroyed. People in Gaza, if you ask a
2:54
Gaza and what's your political solution to the Israeli
2:56
Palestinian conflict, they'll tell you go to hell.
2:59
I want to know where my next meal is coming from.
3:01
I want to know where I'm going to get my next bottle of water.
3:04
This is what's important to them, how we're going to live
3:06
tomorrow. And this is a change also
3:09
because it's not the politics involved now.
3:11
It's life and and life goes on and life will continue.
3:15
And the Gazans don't want Hamas there anymore.
3:17
The Gazans blame Hamas for destroying them.
3:20
So that's a good footing to start on now.
3:22
We have very bad leadership in this region.
3:25
We have bad leadership in Israel.
3:26
We have not so good leadership in Palestine and that needs to
3:31
change. So we're not looking at the
3:32
longer term future of what Trump called lasting peace.
3:38
We're talking about ending the war, creating an ability for
3:42
Israelis and Palestinians to breathe.
3:45
Look around Israel, look around Gaza.
3:46
People are smiling for the first time in two years now.
3:49
That's not a sign that everything's going to work.
3:51
They're going to be difficulties.
3:52
There are obstacles, but we know what has to happen.
3:56
We know how it has to happen and now we have to make it happen.
3:59
Can you explain your role in all of this?
4:02
I mean, it's very unusual to speak to somebody like you who
4:05
is outside the government or any government but seems intimately
4:10
involved in what's happened. OK, Until December of 2024, I
4:17
tried to engage the Israeli negotiators in in pushing them
4:22
toward understanding that the only way to get all the Israeli
4:25
hostages back was to end the war.
4:27
And I was talking to Hamas leadership people throughout the
4:29
period of the from the first days of the war and until today.
4:34
And and it was clear to me what were the contours of a possible
4:37
agreement. How were you able to have
4:39
relationships with all of those people?
4:41
I know I've been doing this work for 47 years.
4:43
I'm well known. I ran a joint Israeli
4:46
Palestinian think tank for 24 years, joint Israeli
4:50
Palestinian, where we brought together more than 2000 working
4:53
groups of Israelis and Palestinians from every part of
4:56
Israeli and Palestinian society. I write a lot in the newspaper,
4:59
I'm interviewed in the media. My name is known.
5:02
I'm, I'm a peacenik, so I, I have that name dubbed over my
5:06
face. But nonetheless, I, I think that
5:10
what enables me to engage basically everyone is that I
5:15
have some kind of integrity. I am transparent, I tell the
5:20
truth, I have my principles, I don't waver from those
5:24
principles. And I've been doing this for a
5:26
very long time. And and as a self declared
5:29
peacenik, the Israeli government is interested in your help.
5:34
No, no, this is what was very clear.
5:37
This Israeli government was not interested in my help at all.
5:40
But let's face it, for 18 years I've been talking to Hamas
5:44
openly in the media. Everyone knows about it.
5:47
Everyone in the world knows about it.
5:49
And the police have been come knocking at my door arresting
5:51
me. That that is illegal by Israeli
5:54
law. And yet, three weeks before
5:57
President Trump entered the White House, I was sitting in
6:00
the office of the head of the Shin Bet talking to him about
6:03
discussions I have with Hamas. This is this is part of what I
6:07
do when I am breaking the law. I'm also communicating with
6:11
everyone who needs to hear what what the other side is saying.
6:14
So you're sort of an unofficial back channel to Hamas.
6:16
Yeah, no one appointed me. There have been times over the
6:20
last 18 years where I have done this.
6:21
Officially, there was a period in May of 2024 for a couple of
6:25
weeks where I was asked by the Israeli side to send messages to
6:30
Hamas, and I did that. But I was shut down after 2 1/2
6:33
weeks, probably when Netanyahu was informed that I was doing
6:37
this, and I was ordered to be shut down.
6:39
From minute to minute. I was shut down.
6:41
But I don't care. If I have a positive
6:44
contribution to make, I will make it.
6:45
And my main motivation is to save human lives.
6:48
Now, in December, when it became clear to me that there was no
6:53
Israeli side to talk to, in September I brought an agreement
6:56
from Hamas to do what we're doing today, back in September
6:59
2024. And I got into Hamas in writing
7:02
in Arabic and English and a voice message, and no one on the
7:05
Israeli side would listen. In fact, the head of the
7:07
negotiations in Israel told me it's a great deal, but the Prime
7:10
Minister refuses to end the war. I went to Qatar and presented it
7:14
to them. I was with the Egyptians.
7:16
It got to the desk of President Biden, but it was it had got no
7:19
traction. So I came to the conclusion at
7:21
that point, particularly when Trump came into office and Trump
7:24
told Netanyahu that I want a ceasefire before I enter the
7:27
Oval Office. And the ceasefire went into
7:29
effect on December, on January 19th, the day before Trump
7:33
entered the Oval Office. It'd be very keen clear to me
7:36
that we don't have to talk to the Israeli side.
7:38
We only have to talk to Hamas and the Americans.
7:42
And of course the Americans want to involve the Egyptians and the
7:45
Qataris at the time, and now also the Turks.
7:48
So it took me a long time to convince Hamas.
7:52
Every time they told me we talked about an idea and they
7:54
said Israel won't agree to that. I said to them, forget about
7:57
Israel. You're sitting in the room with
7:59
Donald Trump now. You're not sitting in the room
8:01
with Netanyahu. You have to talk to Trump.
8:04
He's the person that you got to convince Now.
8:06
The problem that I faced was that Trump and Witkoff believed
8:14
probably up until the assassination attempt in Doha on
8:17
September 9th, that Hamas could be defeated to the point of
8:22
surrender. This was the American attitude
8:25
and and I had big hopes of Trump's first meeting with
8:28
Netanyahu, that Trump would tell Netanyahu to end the war.
8:33
But instead, what happened was Netanyahu convinced Trump to let
8:36
us continue because we're going to defeat Hamas and they're
8:38
going to surrender. And you'd been telling them
8:40
that's not possible. I can tell them that Hamas will
8:42
never surrender to Israel. Never.
8:44
Hamas tell me we're willing to fight to the last Gaza and we
8:48
will never raise a white flag, particularly not to Israel.
8:51
To the Palestinian people they would, but not to Israel.
8:55
Now, they didn't buy that. And they gave me all kinds of
8:57
stories going back to World War 2 and the Nazis and Japan and
9:01
and even the South Bronx. I couldn't convince them.
9:06
But what changed everything was the attack of Israel in Doha
9:11
against the Hamas leadership, where there wasn't a single
9:14
person in the Middle East who didn't believe that Trump gave
9:19
the green light for this. There was no way that Israel
9:22
could have done this. Everybody thought they must have
9:23
been. Ill that's right.
9:24
Now Trump had a big problem because the interest of the
9:28
United States and of Donald Trump, the president and the
9:31
businessman, are much more in the Arab Gulf than they are in
9:36
the state of Israel. He has great affection for the
9:38
state of Israel and his political party.
9:40
The Republicans and the evangelical Christians all are
9:43
very big supporters of Israel. And he can't desert Israel.
9:47
But he couldn't allow Israel to jeopardize the relations and the
9:50
interests of the United States in the Arab Gulf countries.
9:54
So Trump quickly dissociated himself from the attack.
9:57
I got a a what's up in the middle of the night from
10:00
Witkoff, telling me I should tell everyone that the United
10:03
States had nothing to do with the attack. the United States
10:06
condemns it. He told me it's going to be in
10:07
Trump's Truth Social. And it was in.
10:13
The ultimate change came when after the General Assembly
10:16
meeting, when Netanyahu was invited to the Oval Office and
10:20
Trump handed Netanyahu the telephone and scripted for him
10:23
what he needed to say to the Prime Minister of Qatar, the
10:25
apology for attacking in Doha. And then when the cameras went
10:29
out of the room and the journalists were no longer
10:31
there, Trump said to Netanyahu, that's it.
10:34
The war is over. You're going to end the war now
10:37
and nothing. Y'all can't say no to Trump?
10:39
And you, you know that, do you? I know that because they're in
10:41
different versions. No, I know that for for a fact
10:43
that's what happened. Trump made it real.
10:47
You know, there's a new way of working in the world of
10:49
diplomacy today. You create reality and Trump put
10:52
it on his truth social. The war is over.
10:55
Nothing. Y'all agreed to it.
10:56
Israel agreed and that's it. He created the reality the way
11:00
Israel could not say no. And Netanyahu knew he was going
11:03
to have a problem back home with the coalition, but he had a
11:05
majority in the coalition and that was not a real problem.
11:08
The next problem was how do we get Hamas to say yes?
11:11
Now he was depending upon the Qataris and the Egyptians and
11:14
me. I was getting repeated requests
11:16
from Witkoff to tell Hamas that they better accept the deal or
11:19
else. Hamas has heard the OR else
11:22
many, many times. What else could Israel do that
11:24
Israel hasn't already done? But nonetheless, I kept giving
11:29
them the messages and I kept telling them that that Trump is
11:31
serious. And the messages I got from
11:33
Hamas was we can't trust the Americans.
11:35
Look what they did to Doha. We what?
11:38
What kind of American guarantees if we free the hostages, we're
11:41
willing to free all the hostages all at once.
11:44
But how do we know that Israel's not going to attack us the day
11:46
after? Initially, before the Doha
11:49
attack, the deal was that Trump was going to give a personal
11:53
letter, a personal guarantee from the president of the United
11:55
States that Israel will not attack again, Havas said.
11:57
That's not enough. That's a piece of paper.
11:59
It's not worth anything in. The reality of the creation of
12:04
the Multinational Force became much realer at that point
12:07
because the Multinational force, an Arab LED international force
12:11
with Arab participation, maybe Indonesia, Morocco, Turkey, some
12:15
European support in Gaza on the ground.
12:17
This is unprecedented in the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
12:20
This is the internationalisation of the conflict in Gaza.
12:24
If there are foreign troops in Gaza, that is the best buffer to
12:27
prevent Israel from attacking Gaza again and preventing Hamas
12:30
from attacking Israel. But haven't they got themselves
12:32
in a position where that's not really agreed?
12:36
Oh, it is in. Terms of the International.
12:37
Force. No, no, it is agreed and the
12:39
Internet and the various countries have agreed to send
12:41
troops. The question is already it's
12:43
going to happen. The question is when it's going
12:45
to happen. Who's going to lead the force?
12:46
I was telling the American side that in my mind it should be led
12:50
by an American general. If Trump doesn't want American
12:53
boots on the ground in Gaza, then at least have an American
12:55
general have an American administration leading the force
12:58
because everyone's afraid of Trump.
13:00
So you need to put it together in that way.
13:01
We'll see how we'll develop. Trump said they're going to be
13:03
200 American troops coming here, apparently this morning they
13:07
said they're going to be on the Israeli side or the Egyptian
13:10
side of the border and not in Gaza.
13:12
Physically. They're going to be dealing with
13:14
the logistics of the international aid coming in, the
13:17
construction materials and or whatever.
13:18
The role the Americans have is good for the process.
13:22
I think that this emerged because some of the countries
13:24
said why should we send troops if you're not?
13:27
So at what point did Hamas agree to you that they would go along
13:31
with this? I mean, can you say who you were
13:33
talking to? No, I don't want to give names,
13:35
but there were. I've been in communication with
13:37
eight people in the leadership of Hamas, all outside, not in
13:40
Gaza. Three of them responded to me
13:42
regularly. One in particular, and that's
13:44
known, Ghazi Hamid, he's been my primary interlocutor now for 18
13:48
years, and he was the main person I was dealing with, but
13:52
not the only person in Abbas's response to the initial 21
13:58
points that Trump put out was yes, but but Trump in a very
14:03
undiplomatic way, this is unprecedented, this kind of
14:05
diplomacy forced the way that he forced Netanyahu into saying
14:11
yes, he forced Hamas into saying yes.
14:13
He created the reality. He put it on his true social
14:16
that Hamas said yes, and it wasn't yes, but Hamas said yes
14:19
to. The they hadn't.
14:20
They they hadn't at that point. That's amazing.
14:24
Yeah, it's really amazing. But what Trump did to make sure
14:26
that the yes is a yes is he brought in the Turkish
14:29
intelligence chief, Ibrahim Kalin, who has a lot of
14:33
leverage. You know, a lot of people don't
14:35
know this. They think that the main base of
14:37
operation of Hamas is Doha, but the main base of operation of
14:41
Hamas is is Istanbul. After the Arab Spring 2012 in
14:45
and after the fall of Morsi in Egypt, all the Hamas people who
14:49
were in Syria and all the Hamas people were in in Egypt were in
14:52
Istanbul. There's a whole neighborhood in
14:54
Istanbul made-up of Muslim Brotherhood people from Egypt
14:58
and Hamas people. And Turkey has an enormous
15:01
amount of leverage on them. They're live free in Turkey as
15:04
long as the Turks allow them to live free there.
15:06
And Ibram Kalin, who's a good friend of Erdogan, who's a good
15:11
friend of Donald Trump and of Steve Witkoff, got him on the
15:15
phone and said, Ibrahim, we need you to lock Hamas into the
15:20
steel. And the Turks, together with the
15:23
Egyptians and the Qatari strong armed Hamas and Sharm El Sheikh
15:27
happened. So, So what does it take to to
15:31
keep that on the rails and to stop?
15:34
I mean, you know, as we speak, there are Hamas gunmen on the
15:39
streets taking up positions where Israeli soldiers were.
15:44
Israel is warning that it could be like Lebanon and they remain
15:47
the you know. On the like Lebanon, and let's
15:49
face it for a moment, we need someone in Gaza to create law
15:54
and order because the 1st order of business is returning 20
15:58
living hostages and 28 deceased hostages.
16:01
Someone has to do that. If there isn't law and order on
16:04
the streets of Gaza, that can't be done.
16:07
So Israel has an interest, even though it's talking against it
16:10
has an interest. And most of the people who are
16:12
being deployed are part of the Hamas blue police.
16:15
They're not the gunmen of Esadena Qasamu across the border
16:18
on October 7th. Most of those are dead or in
16:23
Israeli prison. And most of the Israeli
16:26
commanders are no longer living either.
16:28
We have third, fourth level commanders.
16:30
And between you and me, most of those commanders who are alive
16:35
will take the option of leaving Gaza with their families,
16:39
probably to end up in Turkey or Malaysia or Indonesia or someone
16:43
somewhere outside of Gaza. The Hamas leadership abroad
16:46
agreed that the decision to leave Gaza is an individual
16:49
decision. They didn't rule it out.
16:51
They didn't veto it. They didn't say it's not going
16:53
to happen. Maybe in their public
16:55
announcements they say no, we will never leave Gaza.
16:58
Our commanders will stay there. What they said inside the closed
17:01
room is that every commander in Gaza wants to leave with their
17:04
family. And the Americans promised them
17:07
amnesty. Israel will not go after them
17:09
and kill them. Now, I can't promise you that,
17:12
but Trump told this to Hamas so. So when Hamas spokesman appear
17:18
right now saying we're not going to give up our weapons.
17:21
Yeah, everyone has their narrative.
17:24
Look, everyone lies. First of all, everyone has their
17:26
own narrative. There is no way that Israel or
17:30
Hamas will declare defeat. Both sides declare victory.
17:36
Ask anyone in this country who won this war.
17:38
I don't think we can talk about winners of this war.
17:41
Everyone lost. We are a society in trauma.
17:44
In Israel, we are in pain. The past two days have been the
17:48
first two days in two years that Israelis have been able to
17:51
smile, to breathe. And in Gaza, there isn't a Gaza
17:56
who can stand up and say we won this war.
17:59
Why? Because France and England
18:00
recognize the state of Palestine.
18:02
Nonsense. That doesn't change their lives
18:05
this much. They lost the war, Israel lost
18:09
the war. There are no winners here.
18:11
Everyone lost. Now we have to lick our wounds
18:13
and get into the process of healing as societies and in Gaza
18:18
the business is to rebuild to to re establish life.
18:22
If you ask a Gaza and you do you want a one state solution or
18:24
two, they tell what are you talking about?
18:29
I want to know where I'm going to be living tomorrow.
18:31
I want a roof above my head. So.
18:34
So at what point do you think the weapons get put away?
18:37
I think when there is a functioning non Hamas
18:40
government, when there's a functioning Palestinian security
18:45
force being supported by the Egyptians, the Jordanians, the
18:48
Emiratis, the Qatar, whoever's going to be supporting them,
18:51
when that security arrangement is working, the Israelis will be
18:57
forced by the Americans to totally withdraw from Gaza.
19:01
There will be a security perimeter around the Israel Gaza
19:05
border that I don't believe. At the end of the day, there
19:08
will be a single Israeli troop there, but it will be a no entry
19:10
zone, a shoot to kill zone for a period, an extended period of
19:14
time. All of this will happen
19:17
beginning in the coming weeks. We're having this as quickly as
19:20
that, I think. So the names of the Palestinians
19:24
to run the government have been reviewed.
19:27
Some of them have been vetted. Who are they mostly civil
19:31
society leaders? Private sector business people?
19:35
We'll see. There are different lists
19:37
floating around. Myself and my Palestinian
19:40
partner Samasin Jalawi have been having repeated zoom meetings
19:44
with a group of civil society leaders and private sector
19:47
people from Gaza who drafted a letter to President Trump. 2
19:51
letters actually, which have already been delivered to
19:53
President Trump saying we are non Hamas people, we hold
19:57
positions in civil society and in the private sector, and we
20:01
want to work with you in rebuilding Gaza.
20:03
And are they in Gaza at the moment?
20:05
They're in Gaza, all Gazans. We're talking to only Gazans.
20:08
The Gazans have to run Gaza. There has to be some linkage to
20:11
the Palestinian Authority because one of the biggest fears
20:15
of the Palestinians and the Arab neighbors is that the separation
20:19
that existed for the past 20 years between the West Bank and
20:22
Gaza will become permanent. And that's not in the interest
20:24
of the Arab region. It's not, apparently in the
20:26
interest of the United States as well.
20:29
And, and has the United Nations been cut out of this?
20:31
No, what what is supposed to happen and we'll see if it will
20:35
happen, and this is something that the Americans told the
20:38
Qataris, the Egyptians, the Turks and Hamas, is that the
20:42
deal will be brought to the Security Council for a Security
20:45
Council resolution that the Americans will support.
20:48
So we'll see if that happens. They understood the importance
20:51
of framing whatever is developing in in Gaza within
20:54
international legitimacy. And what about the on the ground
20:57
operation? Because obviously Unrah was the
20:59
primary provider of services in Gaza before and then Israel
21:02
could have cut it off. I don't know to what level of
21:04
detail they've gotten into this issue, but they have said that
21:08
the international organizations that were distributing
21:11
humanitarian aid before will come back and do the work.
21:16
I heard specifically that the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
21:20
will be disbanded. I don't know if that's 100%
21:24
sure, but that was talked about. There's also a big question if
21:29
the aid is going to have to flow through Israel or it's going to
21:32
go directly to the Rafa crossing.
21:35
There's talk about returning to what was some form of the Rafa
21:39
Crossing agreement from 2005, which involved European Union
21:43
monitors. I don't know if that's robust
21:46
enough for the Israelis right now.
21:49
The agreement says that the Rafa crossing will be for people in
21:52
two directions. It has to become a commercial
21:55
crossing. Gaza can't depend on the whim
21:59
and will of Israel for everything going into Gaza.
22:02
But there has to be a mechanism to guarantee that weapons and
22:05
materials to produce weapons will not be entering Gaza.
22:08
And, and, you know, has there been a conversation about how
22:11
when you come to the rebuilding of Gaza, you're building it as a
22:16
potentially viable independence entity that is not entirely
22:21
dependent for its supply lines, power, water, whatever it might
22:24
be on Israel? That's right.
22:26
So there have been preliminary talks and various plans about a
22:31
Gaza seaport, even reopening A Gaza airport.
22:37
These are very preliminary discussions that will take time.
22:40
There's a big question of what to do with all the rubble, the
22:42
millions of tons of rubble, and people have said that could be
22:45
used for building a seaport, could be used for building an
22:49
island. What are the civil society
22:51
leaders that we talked about, we talked with yesterday, was
22:54
saying that in the past when we tried to do these things, the
22:57
Israelis blocked us. How are we going to have a
22:59
situation where Israel is going to block every developmental
23:01
issue that we have for Gaza? And that's a big question here.
23:05
It's going to rely on the Americans and the Arab partners
23:07
and the others involved in the multinational force to ensure
23:10
that Israel doesn't have a veto anymore on what happens in Gaza.
23:13
Does all this depend entirely on Trump?
23:17
Yes. Keeping yes, the pressure on.
23:19
Right. Trump has to remain engaged.
23:22
People are afraid that Trump will wander off to somewhere
23:24
else. His attention span won't stay
23:27
focused on Gaza. I don't think that's real.
23:29
I think that Gaza is his biggest success and will be probably his
23:33
biggest success internationally unless he reveals the Ukraine,
23:37
Russia war. We'll see what will happen with
23:39
that. Trump has an unprecedented style
23:43
of negotiations and diplomacy. We've never seen anything like
23:46
it before. I've never seen anything like it
23:49
before. It's a completely new style and
23:52
apparently, at least here, you need power or fear of power in
23:57
order to make politics. So, so, so if he doesn't, then
24:02
it it can all collapse because he could also, you know, have
24:06
his mind changed by events. I mean, you know, perish the
24:10
thought, but I mean, you know, if there was a, if there was a
24:12
massive attack somewhere, you know, that was in support of
24:17
Hamas or. Right.
24:18
Trump is unpredictable, so we don't know.
24:20
But I think that the foundations that are being laid in Gaza, in
24:24
the steel with Israel, placing Israel's interest within the
24:28
Middle East, Trump is talking about expanding the Abraham
24:31
Accords. It's very important to Israel.
24:33
Imagine now if Syria and Lebanon join.
24:35
Imagine if there's some kind of normalization with Indonesia,
24:38
the largest Muslim country in the world.
24:40
These are radical changes of events for Israel and changing
24:46
the Israeli psyche that we're not an island or as Netanyahu
24:50
like to call us, a villa in the jungle.
24:52
We're not in a jungle. The Middle East is changing and
24:55
Israel needs to be part of this Middle East.
24:57
Israel needs to be in good relations with Saudi Arabia.
25:00
Saudi Arabia has conditions for that, and one is ending the
25:04
occupation. So we have to look forward to
25:05
that as well. I mean, the thing about this
25:08
conversation is, it is it is not like many conversations you have
25:12
in Israel, but with political leaders, any of the viable
25:15
challenges, most of our Yahoo. Most of our political leaders
25:19
have a vision like this. They refuse to see the area that
25:23
we live in. Israel has adapted itself to a
25:28
belief system where any criticism of Israel is
25:31
anti-Semitism. It is not. anti-Semitism is
25:35
illegitimate. Always, in every place, at all
25:38
times, criticism of Israel is legitimate.
25:41
You can't call legitimate criticism, particularly by
25:44
friends of Israel, as being anti-Semitism.
25:47
Emmanuel Macron is not an anti Semite.
25:50
There's not a single inch of his being that's anti-Semitic.
25:55
He is a huge critic of Netanyahu and the policies of the Israeli
25:59
government. And those are two different
26:01
things. And Israel is going to come out
26:04
of this trauma. So will the Palestinians.
26:07
And we're going to wake up to a new day when people say we've
26:10
been doing this for 100 years, we can't keep doing this.
26:12
This is the worst war ever. But that's still a big shift,
26:15
isn't it, for Israeli society? But it will happen because the
26:18
epiphany that will take place is so powerful because of the
26:22
losses that we've experienced over the last two years.
26:25
It will create a new reality. We need to help shape it from
26:28
the bottom up, and we need leaders who are going to voice
26:30
these new ideas and most. What's most important for the
26:33
Israelis is to hear from Palestinians that they want to
26:36
live in peace with Israel. What's most important for the
26:39
Palestinians is to hear Israelis who say we want to live in peace
26:42
with Israel and we in civil society organizations like the
26:46
one I'm involved in, the Alliance for Two states, We're
26:48
going to help to create the reality with a very large
26:51
investment in social media campaigns of demonstrating that
26:54
the majority of Israelis and the majority of Palestinians want to
26:57
live in peace if they believed there were similar people on the
27:00
other side. What about the West Bank?
27:04
The same thing in the West Bank. I mean, the West Bank is a
27:07
disaster zone today. The only reason why the West
27:11
Bank is not exploding in violence today is because
27:14
everyone's looking around them and say I don't want my town, my
27:19
city, my village to become Gaza. They see what happened in Gaza.
27:25
They're suffering, they're unemployed.
27:28
The they're bankrupt. Israel is holding more than $2
27:31
billion of money that belongs to the Palestinian Authority that
27:35
Israel collects in taxes for them. 200,000 Palestinians who
27:39
were working in Israel before October 7th have been unemployed
27:42
for two years. People don't have money to put
27:44
food on the table. There's a lot of mutual aid.
27:47
There's a lot of solidarity in the Society of people helping
27:50
each other. There's a tremendous amount of
27:53
settler violence. Israel is expanding the
27:55
settlements. One of the things that I believe
27:58
has been told to the Arabs by the Americans is that there will
28:03
be no annexation. Trump will not allow Israel to
28:06
annex territory in the West. But isn't annexation effectively
28:09
happening already? Yes, de facto.
28:11
It's happening not to Yuri. Trump won't allow it to be
28:15
happen to Yuri. We'll see now if we can get the
28:19
attention of the Americans once the Gaza stuff moves forward, if
28:23
we can get the Americans to focus on the reality in the West
28:25
Bank. They have a problem with Mahmoud
28:27
Abbas. They have a problem with the
28:28
Palestinian Authority. The Americans have to overcome
28:32
that. The Palestinian.
28:33
What's that problem? I I don't know where it emerges
28:36
from. I'll tell you what someone told
28:38
me was in Trump's first term, he had a great meeting with Mahmoud
28:42
Abbas in the White House. He said, this is a great guy,
28:45
you know, And then the Israelis came with documentary footage of
28:49
every bad statement that Abbas ever made.
28:53
And, and, and he's made a lot of bad statements.
28:56
And at that point, Trump said, this guy's got to go.
29:00
And that was it. The Americans cut off relations
29:02
with the Palestinian Authority. They wouldn't engage with them.
29:05
American diplomats here couldn't work with them.
29:08
And, and the Biden administration, which promised
29:10
to change that, didn't. And on all the Arab states keen
29:16
on, you know, helping the, the, the, the West Bank and the
29:20
Palestinian Authority and the people there develop a, a more
29:24
plural political culture and, and, and is the PA receptive to
29:28
that? Look, the all the Arab states
29:30
want Mahmoud Abbas to go. There's a meeting taking place
29:35
in Jordan between Sena Sheikh, who's the official appointed
29:38
deputy of Mahmoud Abbas, and Tony Blair talking about the
29:42
future. And we don't know what kind of
29:44
role Tony Blair might play. He's apparently going to have
29:46
some role in this whole operation.
29:49
The international community is engaging with two people in the
29:52
Palestinian Authority, three people, maybe 1, is Hussain
29:55
Sheikh, the deputy of Abbas, who's younger Palestinians don't
29:59
like him. They think he's the height of
30:01
corruption. But he is the person that the
30:04
international community is engaging the Israeli security
30:06
engagement them. The second person they're
30:08
engaging with is Muhammad Mustafa, the appointed Prime
30:11
Minister. Hamid Mustafa is a businessman.
30:14
He wears a nice business suit. He was the head of the
30:16
Palestinian investment fund, the sovereign wealth fund, the
30:19
Palestinian Authority. He's been engaging in reform.
30:22
The Americans, the Brits, the Europeans have a lot of respect
30:25
for him and believe that he's really trying to do the job.
30:28
So the international community is willing to engage with them.
30:31
The fear of the international community is this separation.
30:35
They want to see a unification of the Palestinian territory and
30:39
the Palestinian issue and the overwhelming majority of the of
30:42
the international community want to see a 2 state solution, not a
30:46
three state solution, not West Bank, Israel and Gaza, but
30:49
Israel and Palestine where the Palestinian Authority is, West
30:52
Bank and Gaza with some kind of connection between the two
30:55
territories. So they're fearful of doing
30:58
anything that would cement the separation.
31:00
They want to do something that will bring them together.
31:03
The French and the Saudis forced Abbas in his letter to Mohammed
31:07
bin Salman in Macron to obligate make a commitment that will
31:11
there will be Palestinian elections within 12 months.
31:15
There's an argument if it's 12 months from the date of the
31:17
letter, which was in June, or 12 months from 2 days ago when the
31:20
ceasefire began, doesn't matter. Over the next, over the next 10
31:24
to 12 months there will be Palestinian elections.
31:27
That is the only way of defeating Hamas ultimately, and
31:30
it is the only way of creating Palestinian unity.
31:33
And what difference has the the Iran, Israel war had on this
31:39
whole process? I think it's not only Iran, it's
31:43
also what happened in Lebanon with Hezbollah, what happened in
31:46
Syria with, with Ashara taking over.
31:51
One of the examples that the Americans gave me to tell Hamas
31:55
is that look, look at this guy in in the in Syria, this was a
31:59
terrorist, Al Qaeda, ISIS, whatever.
32:03
And, and we made him kosher, we remove sanctions and we propped
32:08
him up in supporting him. What they said more or less in
32:14
or less they said if, if we can do this in Syria, we can do this
32:17
in the Palestinian areas as well.
32:20
If they cooperate, if their focus is on the positive side,
32:24
on rebuilding, on construction, on peace with Israel, everything
32:29
is possible. And is there a is there a Al
32:31
Shara in Hamas? No, I don't think so.
32:34
I think that Hamas, Hamas has been decimated.
32:38
I mean, the ideas of Hamas still exist within Palestine.
32:41
They're dead in Gaza. I mean, the Gazans blame Hamas.
32:45
Hamas has no chance of reviving itself other than killing
32:48
everyone, which they could do. They could kill a lot of people.
32:52
And people were afraid of Hamas before and they're afraid of
32:54
Hamas now. But they don't want them.
32:55
The West Bank less so because they haven't lived under Hamas.
32:59
And there is no Hamas leadership outside of prison, either
33:02
Israeli prison or Palestinian Authority prison.
33:05
But the the West Bankers are are seeing the reality of Gaza.
33:08
And if it's a positive reality that develops, it will impact
33:12
also. But how?
33:13
How significantly has Iran been weakened as a as an influence?
33:17
I I don't know what to believe because everyone lies and and do
33:21
they still have? I mean, did you feel them as a
33:24
force in your negotiations? No, not at all.
33:26
They weren't there. Right.
33:28
They weren't influencing these negotiations at all.
33:31
At any point in the last two years.
33:33
No. Even the people within the Hamas
33:34
leadership who are known to be pro Iranian didn't really have a
33:39
voice here there. There was at least one of them
33:42
of the four negotiators in Sharm El Sheikh who was thought to
33:45
believe to be pro Iranian. I don't know to what extent he
33:49
still is, but it didn't impact the negotiations.
33:52
So, so let's come to the, you know, to the near.
33:56
What are the next steps? What needs to happen?
33:59
Monday, Trump will be in Israel speaking to the Israeli public.
34:04
I am 100% positive that whatever he says will not be helpful to
34:08
the process that we've created here.
34:10
Why? Because he will talk very badly
34:12
about Hamas and we will talk very positively about Israel and
34:15
he will praise Netanyahu. At the rally in Hostage Square
34:20
celebrating the agreement, when Witkoff praised Netanyahu, the
34:24
audience booed. Witkoff was stunned.
34:27
He was like in shock. What do I do now?
34:29
The audience twice he mentions Netanyahu's name and 400,000
34:34
people who are in Tel Aviv booed Netanyahu.
34:36
Was that just a Tel Aviv thing? No lefty Tel Aviv.
34:40
Yeah, look, Netanyahu's support of 25% of the country, not more.
34:45
Even people in the court now are questioning in not in his own
34:48
party if he has a future, maybe it's time for him to step down.
34:52
But when they called the name of Donald Trump, the the audience
34:55
went crazy. They wow, Trump, Trump is more
34:58
popular in Israel than in any other place in the world.
35:01
I think he's more popular in Israel than he is in in Mar a
35:05
Lago in Florida, to that extent. But yeah, what needs to happen
35:12
now is the details of what the international community is
35:16
obligating itself. The first thing that needs to
35:18
happen is we need the international force to come to
35:20
Gaza. And this is what will move the
35:23
Israelis to withdraw further back.
35:24
Some of the Arab countries won't send troops until the Israelis
35:28
are further away out of Gaza, maybe entirely out of Gaza.
35:32
We need for the Palestinian temporary government of Gaza to
35:36
be established quickly. We need that government to
35:41
empower a Palestinian security force, which will largely be a
35:45
police force. Law and order has to be
35:48
established. We have 2 million people who
35:50
need to have their lives arranged.
35:53
I understand from the Americans that there's already commitment
35:56
of $2 billion now to be brought into Gaza for building
36:02
materials, to remove rubble, to create open spaces, to create
36:06
tent cities or caravan cities where people can reside while
36:10
Gaza is being rebuilt. There's a big issue that I
36:14
became aware of from discussions with Gaza, with the Gazans.
36:17
Let's issue a personal property. This is one of the holy values
36:21
of the American Society. So I think President Trump
36:23
should be able to understand this.
36:25
If people say, OK, the building that I lived in was destroyed,
36:28
but the land under the building is mine.
36:30
And every inch of land in Gaza is registered in the Palestinian
36:33
Land Registry. And if land ownership is not
36:37
respected in the new era, there's going to be total chaos
36:41
in Gaza. No one will cooperate.
36:44
So you can't just come in and rebuild whatever you want and
36:46
they're say, say there's a home. That's right.
36:48
And you can't say that this piece of land who belonged to
36:51
Muhammad tomorrow belongs to Ahmed.
36:54
This is something which is holy. The Palestinian struggle for
36:57
freedom is about land, but the internal value within
37:02
Palestinian society is this land is mine.
37:06
It's not only the Palestinian people, it's mine.
37:08
I have a deed on this land and that has to be respected.
37:11
I don't know how that's going to be done.
37:13
Guy I was speaking to yesterday was telling me that he owns.
37:18
Do we talk in hectares or acres or Dunham?
37:21
190 Dunham, which is 78 acres of land next to the Eris crossing,
37:27
which is going to be part of the security perimeter, a no entry
37:32
zone, a shoot to kill zone, said what happens to my land?
37:36
I used to farm that land. I had a house on that land.
37:39
What's going to be the status of that land?
37:41
I now have an answer for him and I said we're going to have to
37:43
kick that can down the road there.
37:45
In Arabic we say kaushi bewakto. Everything has to be dealt with
37:49
at the right time. This is not the right time for
37:51
him to ask the question what's going to be the status of my
37:54
land? But that question has to be
37:55
asked and answered. In terms of the transitional
37:59
authority, you think that can be established reasonably quickly?
38:03
I think so. They've been talking about the
38:04
names now for about two months. Beyond that is the question of
38:08
statehood, now that the agreement had the vaguest
38:11
possible, yeah, commitment to a road towards a Palestinian.
38:15
State, Yeah, forget it as long as Netanyahu's in power, forget
38:18
it. There has to be a political
38:20
change in Israel, but we. Can keep, not just Netanyahu.
38:23
No, of course I, I think. They're all saying the same
38:25
thing. Abbas needs to be replaced.
38:27
There needs to be new leadership in Palestine, new leadership in
38:30
in Israel. The framework, the framing of
38:33
this has to remain within a 2 state solution framework.
38:36
The international community will help to ensure that that
38:39
discussion remains alive. The reality on the ground won't
38:42
change until after Israeli elections.
38:45
If there are Palestinian elections before Israeli
38:47
elections and they actually elect people who support peace
38:50
with Israel, that will have a huge impact on the Israeli
38:53
electorate. So there's also a sequencing of
38:56
events that's important to happen here as well.
38:58
We need to generate these new voices on both sides because
39:02
people are afraid to speak up. When I speak on Israeli
39:05
television or Israeli radio like I did this morning about peace,
39:09
people say, are are you insane? How can you talk about peace?
39:12
My answer is how can we not talk about peace?
39:15
This has to be the last Israeli Palestinian war.
39:18
There still are 7 million Israeli Jews and 7 million
39:21
Palestinian Arabs living on the land between the river and the
39:23
sea. Palestine is not going to be
39:25
free by killing Israelis. There is no military solution to
39:28
this conflict and the conflict can't be managed.
39:31
It has to be resolved. You've talked about the turning
39:35
points in around the bombing of Qatar.
39:38
What are there other moments in the last two years that that we
39:44
should pick out and remember? Turning points, low points?
39:49
We've had lower low points and lower points and lower points.
39:52
And I'm not sure that we hit the the rock bottom.
39:56
We could have gone lower if it wasn't for Trump.
40:01
You know, a high point would be in November when we saw the
40:04
women and children hostages come home.
40:06
But again, Israel made a stupid decision of not continuing it.
40:10
Hamas breached the deal. They were supposed to deliver
40:12
more women and more children, and they were trying to deliver
40:15
dead bodies and elderly people. And Israel said no, That was
40:18
stupid. Because Israel was trigger
40:20
happy, they wanted to get back to war.
40:21
Israel could have gotten 10s of more hostages back at that
40:24
point. And we know that at least 40
40:26
hostages were killed in captivity.
40:29
They were taken alive and they were killed in captivity.
40:32
And that is a moral stain on the government of the state of
40:38
Israel, in addition to all of its other sins that are
40:42
committed against the Israeli people.
40:44
And do you know what the truth is about whether hostages were
40:47
killed by Israeli bombing, or by Hamas, or just by?
40:50
We don't know for sure. Look, every time that they
40:53
recovered deceased hostage, the Israelis said that they were
40:58
killed by Hamas after October 7th.
41:00
I don't buy that thousands of Palestinians are unaccounted for
41:05
because they're underneath the rubble of buildings that were
41:07
bombed by Israel. More than 80% of the buildings
41:10
in Gaza have been bombed by Israel or bulldozed by Israel.
41:14
It is very likely that there are hostages who are underneath the
41:18
rubble of those buildings as well, maybe some who will never
41:21
be recovered. And what, what do you think is
41:23
the way to approach the Israelis who say all of this is lies?
41:28
You know, there, there was never, you know, we didn't kill
41:31
65,000 people. Or more.
41:34
Ignore it, you know. You're not going to change the
41:36
narrative. You know, people come up to me
41:37
in the street and they say you just broadcast lies.
41:40
You just tell the Hamas figures. Just ignore it.
41:42
I don't argue with these people and and there's no reason to
41:45
argue with them. The reality is what's important,
41:46
not what people are saying. We're shaping narratives now.
41:50
We're shaping new narratives that are false narratives.
41:53
The narrative of victory I already talked about, there's a
41:55
false narrative and people will live by them.
41:58
And what about the people you know in in European capitals who
42:01
believe they are supporters of the Palestinian state, who are
42:06
marching, who are holding banners, who are getting into
42:10
arguments on a daily basis? Are they?
42:12
Are they on the right side of history?
42:16
It depends what it is that they're calling for.
42:21
Those people who call from the river to the sea, Palestine will
42:24
be free and don't have an answer to the existence of Israel, are
42:30
doing damage to the Palestinian 'cause if people don't recognize
42:35
the reality that there are two nations living on this land that
42:39
they both claim as their homeland, then they're doing a
42:42
disservice. Whether they're friends of
42:43
Israel or friends of Palestine, if they don't acknowledge the
42:49
existence of both people here, both people's historic and
42:53
religious connection to this land, they're doing us a huge
42:56
disservice and they're not helping anyone.
42:59
And my advice was either change what you're saying or shut up.
43:03
It's not helpful. But Israel is accused of
43:07
genocide in Gaza. It is not the Holocaust.
43:11
It is not what the Nazis did to the Jews, but by the legal
43:13
definition of what genocide is, and I remind Israelis that after
43:18
World War Two, there were many Jews who were involved in the
43:22
writing of the Convention for the Protection for the
43:25
Prevention of Genocide. There were many Jews involved in
43:28
that process. If you read the convention for
43:31
the Convention for the Prevention of Genocide, what
43:34
Israel has done in Jagas is genocide.
43:37
And when Gaza opens up to the international media and the
43:41
world gets to see the real pictures, not just what the Arab
43:44
media has been presenting, but the reality of Gaza, Israel's
43:48
going to be in a very difficult situation because what Gaza has
43:52
become is unexplainable, unimaginable and unjustified.
43:58
And do you think that will happen soon?
44:00
Very soon, very soon, Gaza will be open to international
44:04
journalism. How long can you shut it off?
44:07
They will be there and people will be shooting pictures on the
44:09
ground and seeing the reality of what Israel did in Gaza.
44:13
I mean, we, we must be careful not to dismiss the journalism
44:17
that has been done in Gaza. It's all real.
44:20
Those realities have been shown for two years.
44:22
By by Palestinian, by the way, the Israelis haven't seen it.
44:25
The Israeli media has self-centered itself, censored
44:28
itself. We see some of the physical
44:30
destruction. Most of the physical destruction
44:32
we see is in the loop. I saw, I saw on one Israeli news
44:36
site today, you know, drone footage of Gaza shows the
44:39
reality of the destruction. And I thought, well, what have
44:42
you been watching for two years? You know, we've been watching
44:44
that for two years. We haven't been, we haven't been
44:46
exposed to it. The Israelis don't watch foreign
44:49
media. We don't want to see the foreign
44:50
media. Forget about Al Jazeera.
44:52
No one watches Al Jazeera and and we don't believe the Gaza
44:55
broadcasters. The world has seen it, but you
44:58
know, being on the ground and experiencing it will be a whole
45:02
new picture that the world will be exposed to.
45:04
And your personal role? What?
45:06
What happens now? Right now, on this day, I am
45:12
trying to make sure that there are Gazans who are involved in
45:15
the discussions on the future of Gaza because right now it's
45:18
taking place without the participation of Gazans.
45:20
That seems to be the number one thing of importance right now is
45:23
to make sure the Gazans have a role in this.
45:27
Beyond that, the discussions have to continue between the
45:32
parties. One of the things that I'm doing
45:36
with my Palestinian partner is thinking about how we change the
45:39
narrative, how we create forces of partnership between Israelis
45:43
and Palestinians, how we demonstrate that we need to
45:45
raise a lot of money to do that. Because we're going to invest a
45:48
huge amount of money in social media.
45:49
That's the way to reach the young generation here.
45:52
And that's who we have to reach. And we want to do it in Hebrew
45:55
and in Arabic, English subtitles.
45:57
But demonstrating partnership, this is the most important,
46:00
urgent thing that we need to do because a majority of Israelis
46:03
and a majority of Palestinians will be willing to make
46:05
concessions for peace, real peace, if they believe there's a
46:08
partner on the other side. Right now they say I want peace,
46:11
but they don't I. Think just finally, I mean, I
46:13
think a lot of people watching this will think how on earth do
46:17
you say so positive? I I first of all, this is my
46:22
life. This is what I've been doing for
46:24
the past 47 years in the only way that I can remain in this
46:30
country and stay here with everything that's going on here
46:36
and most things that are going on here are against everything I
46:39
believe in, is by the hope that we have the power to make the
46:42
change. If I lose that hope, then I
46:47
don't know how I can stay in this country and I have no other
46:49
place in the world. I mean Israeli by choice.
46:52
I moved here at the age of 22 years old because I believed
46:56
that this was my home. I felt at home here.
46:59
That's how when people say what is Israel for you, the one word
47:02
that I use is home. My children were born here.
47:06
They feel less connected to here than I do.
47:08
It's easier for them. My daughter left Israel 7 1/2
47:11
years ago, lives in the South of France.
47:13
She lives in a postcard, beautiful place, has a wonderful
47:15
life. I have no place to go.
47:18
There's no place in the world that I feel at home other than
47:21
here. We have to be a society which is
47:23
just. We have to be a society which
47:25
believes in equality for all of its citizens.
47:28
We have to be a society that's at peace with our neighbors.
47:31
You know, I wrote my first article calling for A2 state
47:34
solution, calling for the establishment of a Palestinian
47:36
state next to Israel in a Jewish newspaper out of California in
47:40
1975. That was a long time ago.
47:44
I represented about 2% of Israeli public opinion at the
47:47
time that I wrote that article. And I believe that that is the
47:50
only solution that enables Israel to be the Jewish nation
47:55
state, which is democratic, equal and just.
47:58
The only way we can do that is if we end the occupation.
48:01
We no longer rule over the Palestinian people.
48:04
We live at peace with them. And because the Middle East has
48:07
changed so much in the last decade, we as Israelis don't
48:12
have to see our focus in Europe. We're not European, we're Middle
48:15
Eastern and our neighborhood is the Middle East.
48:18
We're not the villa in the jungle.
48:20
We could be the villa in a very nice neighborhood because the
48:22
region is changing. When I talked to some of the
48:25
Gazans about how they should see their future, I said look at
48:29
Dubai, look at Doha. Maybe this is not the ideal
48:34
reality of urban life, but anyone who visits those places
48:39
is in awe of what was built out of the sand in 30 years.
48:44
It's an amazing place. Maybe it doesn't have the best
48:47
regime. Maybe we want more democracy and
48:49
more human rights. But if Gaza could come close to
48:55
the realities that are developing in the Middle East,
48:58
we will have peace here. Keshavnaska, thank you very much
49:01
indeed. Thank you.
49:02
That's the forecast. Until next time, bye bye.