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Human Rights Commission inquiry into water and sanitation · Drive with John Perlman

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  Speaker 1: You're with John Perlman on 702. Right, let's focus our
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: attention now at 19 minutes past five on that South
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  Speaker 1: African Human Rights Commission examination of water provision and wastewater
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  Speaker 1: treatment in Gauteng. To look at this, we're joined by
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  Speaker 1: Kululiwe Sitole, who is Senior Legal Officer at the SAHRC.
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  Speaker 2: Mr.
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  Speaker 1: Sitole, welcome and thanks very much for your time. Before
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  Speaker 1: we talk about some of the findings and recommendations that
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  Speaker 1: I was very much struck by the presentation earlier today
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  Speaker 1: by your colleague, Dr. Henk Boshoff, that actually you really
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  Speaker 1: struggled to get the municipalities to attend the hearings at all.
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  Speaker 1: They all had to be subpoenaed. And even then, one
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  Speaker 1: of them, the Rand West City local municipality, didn't turn up.
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  Speaker 1: What did that tell you at the start of your
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  Speaker 1: inquiry that the most important people in the conversation were
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  Speaker 1: not even keen to attend?
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  Speaker 2: Good afternoon and thank you for having me. I think
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  Speaker 2: it told us what we already saw in terms of
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  Speaker 2: the complaints we receive from communities. So the Human Rights
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  Speaker 2: Commission is an oversight body. We shouldn't be the first
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  Speaker 2: point of call when there's service delivery issues. But the
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  Speaker 2: fact that we have an influx of complaints coming to
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  Speaker 2: us because people have gone to the municipalities and they're
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  Speaker 2: getting no response. it is an indication of failing municipalities.
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  Speaker 2: And this is exactly what we saw. Municipal managers did
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  Speaker 2: not want to come to give us evidence as their
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  Speaker 2: accounting officers. We had to subpoena them for them to come.
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  Speaker 2: Some of them, we had to repeatedly send the subpoena notices.
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  Speaker 2: Land West did not send the submissions on time. They
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  Speaker 2: did not even come on the day. They did not
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  Speaker 2: come even today, which just shows the disregard that the
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  Speaker 2: municipalities have have not only for the communities that they serve,
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  Speaker 2: but also for the Human Rights Commission as the oversight
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  Speaker 2: body that is entrusted to safeguard the rights in the
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  Speaker 2: Bill of Rights. And that is astonishing.
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  Speaker 1: Let's talk, Mr. Tole, first of all about water. One
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  Speaker 1: of the important things that your report says is we're not... Yes,
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  Speaker 1: there are seasonal issues around water. Obviously, with an El
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  Speaker 1: Nino looming, there may well be supply issues. But fundamentally,
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  Speaker 1: you're saying the problem is not a lack of water.
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  Speaker 1: It's what we do with it.
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  Speaker 2: Precisely. From the evidence that we had from both rainwater...
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  Speaker 2: and the Department of Water and Sanitation as the people,
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  Speaker 2: the department oversees our water resources, rent water, supplies bulk water.
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  Speaker 2: The evidence didn't show that the issue is that we
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  Speaker 2: don't have enough water. The issue remains on the fact
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  Speaker 2: that the water that we get, 50% of it in
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  Speaker 2: the province gets lost. There's high water losses across the province.
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  Speaker 2: And there is insufficient plans that are put in place
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  Speaker 2: to detect and prevent these water losses. And you would
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  Speaker 2: remember that with water losses, this is water that is
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  Speaker 2: paid for that is lost. And the municipality cannot recover
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  Speaker 2: that money. That definitely has an impact on the municipality's
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  Speaker 2: financial situation. As we've seen with Randworth, Mirafong and Mfuleni municipality.
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  Speaker 2: we've got a huge issue of unmaintained and aging infrastructure.
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  Speaker 2: The province has grown over the years and this has
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  Speaker 2: been predicted. But the infrastructure with regards to water specifically
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  Speaker 2: has not been maintained. There is a low budget for infrastructure,
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  Speaker 2: as we saw from the report that we got from
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  Speaker 2: the Auditor General. And there's a lot of wasteful expenditure.
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  Speaker 2: So it's not that we don't have money or we
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  Speaker 2: don't have water. It's just not being used right.
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  Speaker 1: So, I mean, the good news is in most places
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  Speaker 1: you found the water quality was okay. Not such good
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  Speaker 1: news at all is the state of wastewater treatment. We
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  Speaker 1: have the green drop system of assessment and measurement and
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  Speaker 1: lots of municipalities on the edge of failure around that.
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  Speaker 1: But let's turn to Your recommendations. One of the things
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  Speaker 1: that may concern people, Mr. Tolle, particularly with the picture
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  Speaker 1: you painted of the disregard that municipal managers had for
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  Speaker 1: your inquiry. How much do the recommendations depend on the
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  Speaker 1: same people who have kind of got us in this
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  Speaker 1: situation in the first place?
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  Speaker 2: So most of the recommendations are towards the municipalities. We
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  Speaker 2: have some recommendations for both the Department of Water and Sanitation,
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  Speaker 2: Cooperative Governance and Environment, but most of them are for
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  Speaker 2: the municipalities. And it is a concern, and that's why
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  Speaker 2: we highlighted both in the report and in our launch
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  Speaker 2: today the issue of compliance we had with the municipalities,
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  Speaker 2: just having them to come to the inquiry. But What
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  Speaker 2: we are confident in is that our reports have been
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  Speaker 2: used in court proceedings to hold municipalities to account. So
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  Speaker 2: if municipalities fail to report as we have recommended, you
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  Speaker 2: will see in the recommendations that we have, the reporting
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  Speaker 2: times range from three months to six months to 12 months.
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  Speaker 2: And if they fail to give us reports that shows
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  Speaker 2: the steps that are being taken and are being implemented
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  Speaker 2: to address the water infrastructure issues, then we will have
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  Speaker 2: to consider other avenues that are available to us, including litigation.
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  Speaker 2: And you would recall earlier in the year, the Constitutional Court...
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  Speaker 2: did emphasize that our power lies in acting in ways
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  Speaker 2: that courts cannot, such as having this inquiry and producing
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  Speaker 2: the report, which can then serve as an evidential basis
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  Speaker 2: when we have to go to court where there is
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  Speaker 2: no implementation. What we say in the report is we
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  Speaker 2: receive plans from the municipalities. They're saying we plan to
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  Speaker 2: do this, but Another meeting is simply not enough. We
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  Speaker 2: need to see this being done. People need to have
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  Speaker 2: their water come out of their taps and we need
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  Speaker 2: to reduce the heavy reliance on the water tankers. As
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  Speaker 2: we've seen, the municipality spent a lot of money on
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  Speaker 2: water tankers and still people are not getting water.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, as we heard earlier today, hundreds of millions, sometimes
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  Speaker 1: per municipality. It's a parlous situation in many ways. But
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  Speaker 1: do have a look at the SA Human Rights Commission
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  Speaker 1: inquiry into water and sanitation in Gauteng. You'll find it
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  Speaker 1: on their website, which is sahrc.org.za. Go and check it out.
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  Speaker 1: And have a look at your specific municipality. There are
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  Speaker 1: nine of them that were covered, the three metros, plus Randwest, Mfuleni,
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  Speaker 1: Mugale City, Midval, Merrafong, and Lesedi, the three metros, obviously Twane, Joburg,
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  Speaker 1: and Ikuruleni. Thanks to Kululiwe Sitole, Senior Legal Officer at
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  Speaker 1: the SAHRC. The recommendations are in place. Now we see
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  Speaker 1: what happens next. 26 minutes past five.