Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / Susan Cox Powell: Fire & Fallout | The Aftermath | Pt. 2

Transcript

Susan Cox Powell: Fire & Fallout | The Aftermath | Pt. 2 · PNW Haunts & Homicides

• 0:00
  Psychologists later cited the Powell case as a textbook example of coercive control,
• 0:07
  the slow corrosion of autonomy that too often ends in lethal violence.
• 0:13
  Chuck and Judy Cox transformed their grief into advocacy.
• 0:17
  Through the Susan Cox Powell Foundation, they fund programs addressing intimate partner homicide risk
• 0:24
  and missing persons awareness. They speak often about early intervention warning signs,
• 0:31
  isolation, financial control, threats, masked as jokes.
• 0:37
  Hi Cassie. Hi Caitlyn. Hi creepy people.
• 0:44
  Oh hello. Hello. This is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime,
• 0:52
  the paranormal, whatever strikes our fancy. In the Pacific Northwest.
• 0:57
  All the PNW, if you're nasty, we also do a tarot reading at the end of every episode
• 1:04
  for a little bit of deeper insight into our topic. Anything else?
• 1:09
  Oh, let's go say on our topic today is extended from last week.
• 1:14
  Oh yeah, part Adol. And with that.
• 1:18
  Without further Adol. It's the in the weeks after Susan Powell vanished on December 6th, 2009
• 1:28
  from her Utah home. Investigators followed every possible lead.
• 1:33
  Searchers scowled, they scowled, you know, I'm sure they scowled real hard at Joshua.
• 1:40
  I mean, they honestly did, but also searchers scoward hundreds of miles of Utah desert,
• 1:49
  mind shafts, remote campgrounds, storage units rented under variations of Josh's name.
• 1:57
  Oh, he had like a bunch of different storage units.
• 2:00
  You know, I didn't really target this thread, but I think that they were just looking for
• 2:05
  like a situation where he might be using a alias or you know what I'm saying?
• 2:11
  Is that legal? They just search a bunch of random people storage units.
• 2:16
  I mean, if they've got probable cause, they have warrants.
• 2:21
  That just seems like how would they get a warrant for that most?
• 2:24
  They could prove it was his storage unit and that's really interesting though.
• 2:30
  Yeah, I can see why that's like kind of a big thread to go down or a big hole to go down, but.
• 2:36
  Exactly. And it's like, you know, that's probably not going to yield all that much.
• 2:42
  Yeah, but I'm super interested in that.
• 2:44
  It is. I know you mentioned something and I'm like, but wait.
• 2:48
  But wait. What I want to know about.
• 2:50
  And I'm like, but wait, there's not more.
• 2:53
  And there, this is such a small piece of the story that it does not matter.
• 2:57
  But yeah, I'm like, not even at the end of the first paragraph and you're like, but I have questions.
• 3:03
  This is where we need like an accompanied, what's that called?
• 3:07
  Like a company podcast.
• 3:09
  Oh, like a companion podcast.
• 3:11
  Like a companion podcast where we have like a lawyer, like a cop or someone come on
• 3:15
  and explain how this would happen.
• 3:17
  Yeah.
• 3:18
  Any cops or lawyers interested in wanting to be our companion, you will get no money.
• 3:26
  It just seems like, oh my god, if another could say committed a crime and they came and searched my storage unit.
• 3:33
  Yeah.
• 3:34
  I would feel extremely violated.
• 3:37
  Yeah. I mean, and you wouldn't necessarily be entirely wrong.
• 3:42
  But, you know, they're going to do what they got to do.
• 3:45
  They dug and sifted through snow and held vigils that blurred one winter into the next.
• 3:52
  Cadaver dogs alerted twice in the Simpson Springs area, but snow and wind wiped away what little scent existed.
• 4:01
  But for all the movement, no one could shake the feeling that the case had frozen in place.
• 4:08
  Stuck between what investigators suspected and what they could prove.
• 4:13
  Detectives later said they believed Susan's body had been moved multiple times.
• 4:19
  Oh.
• 4:21
  Yeah.
• 4:22
  Oh, God.
• 4:23
  Speaking of chills, like just to bury someone anyway that you've murdered is just like so gross.
• 4:30
  But even saying buried, that's a presumption.
• 4:33
  Yeah.
• 4:34
  You don't know.
• 4:35
  Right.
• 4:36
  I guess I'm saying like doing whatever they're doing with disposing of the body or wherever they're writing it.
• 4:41
  Yeah.
• 4:42
  Is so gross anyway that moving it or raising it.
• 4:45
  Is this such a desecration like disrespect?
• 4:51
  It is.
• 4:52
  Yeah.
• 4:53
  No rest.
• 4:54
  Like she's already gone.
• 4:55
  Let her have some peace.
• 4:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 4:57
  Wow.
• 4:58
  Detectives kept surveillance on Josh's house for weeks.
• 5:01
  They collected trash, watched his comings and goings, and noted how he start his car, sit for long stretches, then drive aimlessly.
• 5:12
  Hmm.
• 5:15
  I don't know.
• 5:16
  I mean, it's odd, but nothing necessarily criminal about it, right?
• 5:20
  Is that what he was like used to doing when he would like pretend to go to work or something?
• 5:25
  You know what?
• 5:26
  Honestly, it's a fair point.
• 5:27
  It's just his routine.
• 5:28
  Yeah.
• 5:30
  On more than one occasion, he circled the great Salt Lake's Western Rim.
• 5:36
  Miles of open desert that could hide almost anything.
• 5:40
  Through it all, Josh maintained a routine that unnerved even his friends, as did his referring to Susan in the past tense so shortly after her disappearance.
• 5:52
  God, come on.
• 5:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:54
  You're not even a good liar.
• 5:56
  Not even close.
• 5:57
  I mean, we've kind of established that in part one.
• 6:00
  Right.
• 6:01
  Yeah.
• 6:02
  Can't even pretend a little bit here.
• 6:03
  Come on.
• 6:04
  Yeah.
• 6:05
  Like, I can't even give you an A for effort for like what a day.
• 6:08
  He kind of pretended to be.
• 6:09
  Maybe a little concerned.
• 6:11
  It honestly, it doesn't sound like he was very convincing to hardly anyone.
• 6:17
  Yeah.
• 6:18
  Like pretty much from the start.
• 6:19
  Like anybody that actually got a glimpse, they really just didn't believe him.
• 6:25
  Like his story was unbelievable.
• 6:27
  His demeanor was suspicious.
• 6:29
  Everything about this just wreaked of like, what the fuck?
• 6:33
  I wonder if like he felt like he was going to get caught or if he was just walking around like thinking he was.
• 6:38
  Going to get away with it or whatever.
• 6:40
  I mean, I still don't know either way, but I'm just like I'm wondering where his head.
• 6:44
  Yeah.
• 6:45
  I want to know where his head was that as gross as that sounds.
• 6:48
  I'm just curious.
• 6:49
  Yeah.
• 6:50
  I'm not sure that we're really going to get a solid answer on that.
• 6:54
  Right.
• 6:55
  I'm going to give you like, there are some things that we know and that are documented that maybe makes you feel like you get a little bit of a glimpse for better for worse.
• 7:05
  This is why I wanted like, I'm going to be a criminal investigator because I'm like, I want to know what the murder is thinking.
• 7:13
  You say that, but obviously I didn't do it.
• 7:17
  No, I mean, it's like the curiosity gets the better of you for sure.
• 7:21
  As the weeks blood into months, frustration hardened into anger.
• 7:26
  Online forums accused police of moving too slowly.
• 7:30
  Others dissected every 911 call in interview transcript as if the truth might appear by sheer force of attention.
• 7:39
  Church members brought meals to Josh for a while until his demeanor drove them away.
• 7:46
  One neighbor recalled, he'd talk about camping again.
• 7:50
  Like that wasn't the weirdest thing in the world.
• 7:53
  It was like he thought if he said it enough, we'd all start believing him.
• 7:58
  Like, is he talking about that same camping trip or like future camping trips?
• 8:03
  Or he's just like always talking about camping?
• 8:05
  Yeah, I mean, my understanding is that he was referencing the infamous camping.
• 8:12
  And they were just like, dude, why are you like harping on this?
• 8:17
  And it just made them so uncomfortable that they stopped doing the nice, you know, church person thing of like bringing him in his funs meals.
• 8:26
  Damn.
• 8:28
  Yeah, but my understanding is that it was like he was trying to like,
• 8:31
  re-sement with everybody that he was speaking with.
• 8:35
  Like this is like kind of the series of events and trying to kind of cement his alibi.
• 8:41
  So to speak.
• 8:42
  Yes.
• 8:44
  How awkward. God, how awkward to be the people that he was talking about that way.
• 8:48
  Seriously, like, dude, just fuck off.
• 9:00
  Co-workers said Josh had made comments about how to kill someone, dispose of the body and not get caught.
• 9:07
  At the time, he'd said he would hide a body in a mineshaft in the west desert of Utah, believing law enforcement was extremely unlikely to search an unstable mind.
• 9:17
  Who is he saying this to?
• 9:19
  He's talking to just people about it. His co-workers.
• 9:23
  What the fuck?
• 9:25
  Not super safe for work.
• 9:27
  I got to say.
• 9:28
  I thought it was awkward before that was this before or after.
• 9:33
  This is before this predates Susan's disappearance.
• 9:37
  He's at least smart enough to not talk about it after, but I mean just barely.
• 9:43
  By summer 2010, the searches had slowed, though not the obsession.
• 9:48
  Detectives combed mineshafts near Eli Nevada, volunteers organized fundraisers.
• 9:55
  Each time, bones surfaced in the desert, hopes layered and died again.
• 10:01
  Oh, shit. Did they find other people?
• 10:04
  Yeah. They definitely found other bodies.
• 10:07
  Oh my God.
• 10:08
  It's hard to know how to feel or what to say about that because it's like if she had an idea they wouldn't have found those other people maybe.
• 10:15
  But Jesus.
• 10:16
  Yeah. I mean, it's great that they were able to find something that maybe they didn't even know they should be looking for.
• 10:22
  Yeah.
• 10:23
  So it's like maybe that's in a way sort of a silver lining, but how disappointing to be going out and looking for this woman and finding literally everything but her.
• 10:36
  I guess you answered my question too if they searched Nevada.
• 10:39
  They did.
• 10:40
  They did.
• 10:41
  In March 2010, Josh packed up what was left of his Utah life and drove north to Washington with Charlie and Braden to settle back into his hometown of Puyola.
• 10:53
  No.
• 10:55
  Get out of here. You stink.
• 10:58
  Yeah.
• 10:59
  Not the kids. Not the kids.
• 11:00
  The move felt like retreat, but he claimed he needed family support. He moved in with his father, Steve Powell.
• 11:08
  The same man who'd once written love songs to Susan.
• 11:12
  The children had told their maternal grandparents all about grandpa's weird songs about mommy.
• 11:19
  I forgot about him.
• 11:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:22
  Ew.
• 11:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:25
  So this was his dad.
• 11:27
  Yeah.
• 11:28
  Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That is just like, God, what is their obsession with this one woman? Yeah.
• 11:36
  Back in Puyola, Josh reinvented himself as a single father.
• 11:40
  He blogged about parenting and posted photos of the boys at playgrounds.
• 11:45
  Every image looked staged.
• 11:48
  Two small boys smiling because someone told them to.
• 11:52
  By late 2011, Josh's veneer of cooperation was cracking. His sister Jennifer warned authorities, believing he was on a slow march towards something terrible.
• 12:04
  That's when she agreed to wear a wire.
• 12:07
  So technically before 2011, because January 22nd, 2010, Jennifer and her husband visited her father's house.
• 12:18
  So 2010, she wears the wire. 2011 is really when the custody thing starts to heat up.
• 12:27
  It's like this kind of period of time where things are just, it's so hard to map it on a timeline.
• 12:36
  Because when you say his veneer was cracking, it's like what veneer and, uh-huh.
• 12:43
  Also, it's literally like the cracks were in the surface from the start. It's right. Yeah.
• 12:48
  Anyway, they were January 22nd, 2010, Jennifer and her husband visited her father's house.
• 12:55
  There she attempted to confront her brother and ask some burning questions.
• 13:01
  So you remember how there were over 40 documented inconsistencies and his story within like the first week of Susan's disappearance.
• 13:10
  Yeah. That explains this next part because Josh told her there's a recording of him saying this.
• 13:19
  Josh said his attorney had advised that he not talk about specifics.
• 13:26
  Because he can't keep the details straight.
• 13:29
  Right. Okay.
• 13:31
  And also it like in general, even if you are, you know, actually someone that the public presumes is potentially innocent.
• 13:40
  Like you just shouldn't be talking about the details of the case with people that you like don't trust or more importantly, probably anyone outside your legal team realistic.
• 13:52
  Right. Yeah. Cause anything can be taken like out of contact. Yeah.
• 13:57
  And you're feeding the prosecution essentially. He has a lot of very specific things even taken out of context or in context looks suspicious.
• 14:06
  But yeah. Steve interrupted their conversation and turned on Jennifer.
• 14:12
  It got ugly with her father levying threats against her and the couple left.
• 14:16
  He was literally like swearing at her screaming at her. He threatened her life.
• 14:22
  Once safely back in her car, Jennifer may have been slightly shaken emotionally from the conflict.
• 14:28
  But her conviction was firm as ever that Josh had something to do with Susan's disappearance.
• 14:34
  So they have it on recording that he was like yelling at her and stuff.
• 14:38
  Geez. That's like the thing that makes me really nervous too is even if they're listening to you wearing a wire like they could come in and theoretically save you.
• 14:48
  If that person, you know, doesn't kill you or hurt you, you know, before they get there.
• 14:53
  Yeah. I don't know that this was a situation where law enforcement was like on standby.
• 14:58
  Yeah. They were just recording it. Right. Yeah. So her safety.
• 15:02
  It's even more dangerous. Yeah. Holy shit.
• 15:07
  The recording didn't yield a confession, but it gave investigators another glimpse into the family's twisted orbit and confirmed that fear now guide.
• 15:17
  Every conversation. If the recording was any indication, it wouldn't be long before the search for Susan was competing with something darker.
• 15:29
  The unraveling of the Powell family itself. A father-in-law obsessed, a husband growing stranger by the day and two little boys caught in the pull of a story that should have ended differently.
• 15:43
  In 2011, brought Steve Powell's arrest for voyeurism and possession of child pornography charges. No.
• 15:52
  That's it. The search of Steve Powell's home uncovered thousands of photos and journals fixated on Susan.
• 16:00
  Some were taken through windows. Others were close-ups, clearly snapped without her knowledge or consent.
• 16:06
  Were there like sleeping pictures of them?
• 16:08
  No, they were primarily photos that appeared to have been captured like when she was out in public places.
• 16:16
  Like I think some of them were probably taken in the parking lot of her workplace, things like that.
• 16:22
  Oh, that's right. You did kind of say that.
• 16:25
  Yeah.
• 16:26
  Which I don't know. They're both creepy. Like if he was like sneak and picks at home. But for some reason I was thinking it was like a home thing.
• 16:33
  Like he was following her around in her life too. And did they live with him?
• 16:38
  They did at one point. Yeah. Before they moved to Utah.
• 16:41
  Yeah.
• 16:42
  Oh.
• 16:43
  The discovery confirmed what Susan had confided years earlier that she'd about watched even from miles away.
• 16:51
  When news broke that he had hundreds of images of Susan, the public outrage reignited the case.
• 16:58
  The discovery functioned like a mirror every suspicion about Josh reflected through his father's obsessions exposing the family's toxic center manipulation, masquerading as devotion.
• 17:13
  The revelations also deepen the psychological portrait of Josh's upbringing, one shaped by dysfunction surveillance and sexual boundary violations.
• 17:24
  Investigators began to reframe Josh not merely as a suspect, but as a product of his father's warped moral universe.
• 17:32
  Washington child welfare officials removed the boys from Josh's custody following Steve's arrest, citing the homes sexualized environment and Josh's unresolved status as a person of interest, granting temporary custody to Susan's parents.
• 17:49
  Steve had also been a person of interest in Susan's case.
• 17:54
  Josh's psychological evaluations described him as narcissistic, emotionally immature and potentially violent, if cornered.
• 18:03
  He attended mandated parenting classes and began building a paper trail of compliance.
• 18:10
  So he's being a good, a good low boy.
• 18:13
  He's doing his version of that. His sister Jennifer Graves would prove an invaluable witness in the case against her father.
• 18:24
  She testified that her father used to capture photographs of two young girls in the neighborhood.
• 18:30
  Outside of the courtroom, she spoke to reporters stating, "More than ever, I'm convinced that the boys shouldn't be with Josh and they certainly never should have been with my dad."
• 18:42
  She was glad that her family had cut ties with her father long ago for the sake of their own children and that now Susan and Josh's would be removed.
• 18:52
  Oh my gosh, so even his kids knew what was going on.
• 18:58
  Well, it's funny you should say that.
• 19:01
  She has also voiced suspicions about what Josh might have known about, you know, the child pornography.
• 19:11
  I mean, she really didn't believe in giving either of these men the benefit of the doubt and why should she?
• 19:20
  It was around this time that child welfare agents started documenting Josh's volatility in court records.
• 19:27
  He interrupted supervised visits to berate staff, insisted the children were brainwashed, and refused to answer direct questions about Susan.
• 19:38
  The coxist meanwhile moved to permanently terminate his parental rights, believing it was safest for Charlie and Braden to remain in their care.
• 19:47
  For a moment, it seemed the system might protect them.
• 19:51
  Until February 5, 2012, when it didn't.
• 19:57
  Sunday, February 5, 2012 was a gray day in Graham, Washington.
• 20:03
  The boys were playing happily as the time of their supervised visit with their father approached.
• 20:09
  And they honestly didn't really want to go.
• 20:12
  I can't blame them.
• 20:14
  Judy Cox, Susan's mother coax them to proceed with their visit as planned.
• 20:19
  Case worker Elizabeth, who was supervising the boys visit, pulled into Josh Powell's driveway at 8119, 189th Street Court East just before noon.
• 20:32
  Which street court, what are we doing here, people?
• 20:36
  I got, I was like, huh?
• 20:38
  Couldn't decide we, but we did both.
• 20:40
  Street Court East for fuck's sake.
• 20:43
  Hardly the most upsetting part of this, but one hour, two boys and a father underscrutiny.
• 20:50
  When she stepped from her car, Charlie and Braden sprinted ahead, excited to see their dad.
• 20:57
  Because of course, by the time they get there and they actually see their dad, I'm sure they are excited to see him.
• 21:03
  Yeah.
• 21:04
  Josh smiled, ushered them inside, and then slammed the door.
• 21:08
  With all the supervisors?
• 21:10
  In Elizabeth's face.
• 21:11
  Oh shit.
• 21:12
  Elizabeth's knock met silence.
• 21:15
  Elizabeth frantically dialed 911, the call coming in at 208PM according to the call logs.
• 21:22
  She desperately tried to explain the details and the severity of the circumstances to the dispatcher.
• 21:28
  In one of the most frustrating 911 calls I've ever listened to, the dispatcher's voice stayed maddeningly calm, clearly not grasping the seriousness of the situation.
• 21:39
  Here's an excerpt from the tail end of the call.
• 21:42
  Elizabeth, okay, how long will it be?
• 21:45
  She's asking how long before officers will be there.
• 21:49
  911 operator.
• 21:51
  I don't know, ma'am.
• 21:52
  They have to respond to emergency life threatening situations first.
• 21:57
  The first available deputy will respond.
• 22:00
  Elizabeth said, this could be life threatening.
• 22:04
  He went to court on Wednesday and he didn't bring his kids back.
• 22:09
  And this is really, I'm afraid for their lives.
• 22:12
  911 operator.
• 22:14
  Okay.
• 22:15
  Has he threatened the lives of the children previously?
• 22:18
  Elizabeth, I have no idea.
• 22:21
  911 operator.
• 22:23
  All right, well, we'll have the first available deputy contact you.
• 22:27
  Elizabeth, thank you.
• 22:29
  911 operator.
• 22:31
  Bye.
• 22:32
  There are a handful of minutes back and forth.
• 22:36
  She's trying to explain who she is, why she is, where she is, who she is interacting with and in relation to what the situation is.
• 22:49
  And this dispatcher just for the life of her could not understand what was going on apparently.
• 22:59
  And it kind of felt like watching clips of Clinton saying it depends on what you think is is.
• 23:07
  Wow.
• 23:08
  I just like, I guess I assumed that if someone is supervising a visit from a parent who is like that where they've kind of established like he might be violent, didn't they?
• 23:22
  I mean, yeah, it's well established.
• 23:25
  I don't.
• 23:26
  I can't have your kids.
• 23:29
  The dispatcher doesn't necessarily have that context.
• 23:31
  Right.
• 23:32
  I was tempted to read the entirety of the transcript because it is literally like it will just make you want to bang your head against the wall until it leads.
• 23:43
  Well, right.
• 23:44
  That's kind of what I'm getting at.
• 23:45
  As I assumed that there was some sort of direct line, I guess, to like the police, you know where there's not that explain the situation.
• 23:55
  Because the situation kind of already I think the situation actually isn't that complicated.
• 24:00
  I think this is a real failure.
• 24:03
  It's just crazy because like they're supervised for a reason, then they can't even get help.
• 24:07
  Like that's nuts to me.
• 24:09
  Yeah.
• 24:10
  That does not make me feel safe.
• 24:12
  Yeah.
• 24:13
  And not that I need to feel safe.
• 24:14
  That doesn't make me feel like any kid is safe anywhere, even a supervised visit.
• 24:18
  That's insane.
• 24:20
  Yeah, I would argue.
• 24:21
  Yeah, that's a that's a little insane.
• 24:23
  What is the point?
• 24:24
  Here's the thing Elizabeth, the case worker, her full legal name is out there in association with this case.
• 24:33
  And I think you'll see later, there are a lot of people that are going to have a lot of strong feelings about how all of this shit went down.
• 24:44
  And I'll be honest with you, I'm not super familiar with what all of the protocols would be for somebody in her position.
• 24:52
  But what the fuck was she supposed to do?
• 24:54
  I don't think she did anything wrong.
• 24:57
  She's very she's children to this supervised visit.
• 25:02
  And you know, they're excited.
• 25:04
  Now they see their dad in front of them and they go running in the door.
• 25:09
  And she did the right thing. She immediately like called 911 when she's like, I've been knocking.
• 25:15
  I'm not hearing him like coming back to the door like what is happening?
• 25:20
  Yeah, that is not the person that I feel like.
• 25:23
  And I don't you know, it's not like I want to lay the blame at any one person's feet.
• 25:28
  If you had to decide person that like this wasn't their best day.
• 25:32
  This wasn't their best moment was the dispatcher.
• 25:36
  And truth be told, I'm not sure that anything that that person did made that big of a difference.
• 25:43
  But it's yeah, a frustrating layer of just what the fuck?
• 25:49
  I guess it's like it's hard to even know what to do because like not not all parents that need supervised visits are like criminals with murder investigations going on.
• 25:59
  But holy shit.
• 26:01
  Yeah.
• 26:02
  I need just like a life alert button, you know, like some sort of button like hey, yeah.
• 26:07
  Yeah.
• 26:08
  Even that I don't think would have made a difference. Unfortunately.
• 26:14
  Elizabeth's concern for the boys was well founded.
• 26:17
  She'd begun to smell gasoline emanating from the house while on the call with the dispatcher.
• 26:23
  By 1216, the dispatcher was notified that two units from the sheriff's office were being sent to respond to the call.
• 26:31
  By then, it was already too late.
• 26:33
  Just a moment prior at 1215 PM, the home had erupted.
• 26:38
  The explosion flattening the structure and setting neighboring pines a light by 1229 PM.
• 26:45
  The first unit had arrived at the scene, though by then the home was already completely engulfed in flames.
• 26:52
  Holy shit.
• 26:53
  He blew up his fucking house.
• 26:55
  The massive explosion of the home had blown the roof clean off sending debris flying.
• 27:01
  The inferno burned hot enough to melt siding and send plumes of black smoke curling over the quiet cold assack in Graham Washington.
• 27:09
  A community just a few miles from where Josh grew up.
• 27:13
  And this is important because with an explosion, obviously there's a lot of sound.
• 27:17
  There's a lot of debris.
• 27:19
  A lot of confusion, but Pierce County investigators ruled out any gunfire.
• 27:26
  Investigators would later find a five gallon gas can in the center of the home where the bodies were also discovered.
• 27:34
  They also recovered a hatchet near the entryway that had apparently been used to attack the boys before Josh ignited the fuel.
• 27:44
  Both Charlie and Braden had suffered what were described as chop injuries.
• 27:50
  For all three, their official cause of death was carbon monoxide poisoning, though Josh's death was classified as a suicide.
• 27:59
  So they weren't even passed away when he lit them on fire.
• 28:02
  No.
• 28:03
  Oh my god.
• 28:05
  He took an axe to the head and neck of his boys.
• 28:11
  How could you do that?
• 28:14
  It was obviously like planned if you had a bunch of gasoline in the house.
• 28:18
  And you're not just walking with a hatchet.
• 28:21
  And we have a lot of information about things that happened.
• 28:26
  Things that came to light that show this was truly premeditated.
• 28:33
  And he knew how to get them in there quick and like shut the door and do it quick before.
• 28:38
  I mean, she's probably lucky that he didn't let her in.
• 28:42
  I know. I was thinking that too.
• 28:45
  Because I'm sure he would have honestly killed all four of them.
• 28:49
  Public fury erupted.
• 28:52
  Commentators dissected the failures of communication between Utah investigators, Washington child services staff and the courts.
• 29:01
  Chuck Cox, Susan's father later said.
• 29:06
  The system, quote, gave Josh Powell every benefit of the doubt until there was nothing left to doubt.
• 29:13
  Literally, the fire that tore through Josh Powell's rental home just south of his hometown wasn't just a tragedy.
• 29:21
  It was a final act of violence.
• 29:24
  But the story didn't end there in the aftermath.
• 29:27
  Chilling digital breadcrumbs began to surface.
• 29:31
  It sent emails in the minutes before the explosion, instructions about his utilities, his bank accounts and the remnants of his life.
• 29:39
  Moments before the flames, his attorney received a final message.
• 29:43
  I'm sorry.
• 29:45
  Goodbye.
• 29:46
  He'd even donated some of the voice toys and games to Goodwill days earlier.
• 29:51
  But seems weird to me.
• 29:55
  It's very weird, but it's all very clear that it's part of like it's all part of a premeditated plan.
• 30:04
  Yeah, but like, why would he even go through the trouble of that?
• 30:08
  I don't know.
• 30:09
  Like he's going to explode the house.
• 30:10
  Like, why do you need to get rid of things?
• 30:12
  Why do you care that much about other kids having these toys that, but you're going to kill your children?
• 30:19
  Yeah.
• 30:20
  It's probably it's one of several like it's it's one of many things that are just it's so confusing.
• 30:28
  It's so confusing.
• 30:30
  How how is that important enough to take the time out of your day to go and make this donation, but yet you attack your own children with a hatchet and literally let them die in a house fire caused by an explosion.
• 30:48
  I was so creepy to me for some reason.
• 30:51
  Yeah.
• 30:52
  Detective said one voicemail obtained by family and ABC news captured his parting words.
• 31:00
  I'm sorry to every one I've heard.
• 31:03
  Goodbye.
• 31:04
  There was no mention of Susan, not one word.
• 31:09
  Wow.
• 31:11
  Within weeks, Washington's Department of Social and Health Services launched an internal review.
• 31:18
  The findings were blunt.
• 31:20
  Risk assessment guidelines hadn't accounted for domestic violence related homicide indicators.
• 31:26
  Control, isolation, obsession.
• 31:29
  Law makers responded quickly.
• 31:32
  The aftermath, tightened visitation protocols requiring thorough danger assessments and safe facility visits when a parent is under active investigation for violent crime.
• 31:43
  There's no official Charlie and Braden act like we see a lot of times in kind of the response and the aftermath of these cases, but this case is what spurred a lot of these changes.
• 31:57
  It's frustrating in a way, though, because it feels like there should be something that's like in their name specifically.
• 32:04
  You know what I mean?
• 32:05
  Yeah.
• 32:06
  Because clearly, I mean, they died for it, you know?
• 32:10
  Yeah.
• 32:11
  In Utah, West Valley City Police reclassified Susan's case from missing person to probable homicide.
• 32:19
  They publicly acknowledged what everyone already knew.
• 32:23
  She hadn't walked away.
• 32:25
  Just over a year after Josh died by suicide after killing their sons, his brother Michael Powell died by suicide when he jumped from a multi-story parking structure in Minnesota.
• 32:37
  Jesus.
• 32:38
  Themes and the fam.
• 32:40
  Law enforcement released a statement later in 2013 related to Susan's case closure, indicating that he had been heavily investigated and they believed had intimate involvement.
• 32:52
  Many believe he helped Josh either when initially disposing of Susan's body or when he moved it at some point.
• 33:02
  The brother did?
• 33:03
  Yes.
• 33:04
  That's what they believe.
• 33:05
  Shit.
• 33:06
  There's a lot of suspicion still surrounding essentially all of the Powell men.
• 33:11
  People believe that either his father and or his brother had involvement in in Susan's disappearance.
• 33:20
  What the fuck did this guy do to his kids?
• 33:23
  Holy shit.
• 33:24
  While lawsuits unfolded, Steven Powell was convicted in Pierce County of voyeurism and later for possession of child pornography.
• 33:34
  They actually tried to overturn his conviction and that was briefly successful and then it was reinstated.
• 33:41
  Thank gosh.
• 33:43
  Thank gosh, Josh.
• 33:45
  Why would they do that in the first place?
• 33:48
  That's upsetting.
• 33:49
  I didn't pull at that thread either because there is still so much more and I can't believe I'm saying that at this point.
• 33:58
  He served multiple state prison terms and was released in July 2017.
• 34:03
  And this is probably the most compelling evidence that there might in fact be a God.
• 34:11
  Less than a year later in July 2018, he died from a heart related illness.
• 34:16
  I was going to say so like he fucking got out.
• 34:19
  That's upsetting.
• 34:20
  It is upsetting.
• 34:21
  Fuck.
• 34:22
  Yeah.
• 34:23
  I mean, it's just a little, you know, a little child, the porn and light stalking and that's fine.
• 34:32
  Yeah.
• 34:33
  Well, and I mean, the thing that like I also kind of struggled with in talking about like his case specifically is that like child pornography is also not really.
• 34:45
  It is in most states, still the correct like legal nomenclature, but this is child sex abuse material.
• 34:56
  It's not pornography.
• 34:58
  That is true.
• 34:59
  Yeah.
• 35:00
  So I hate saying that, but I guess I just didn't really know another term for it.
• 35:05
  So yeah, thank you for saying that because I guess yeah, I don't want porn pornography is not a bad word.
• 35:12
  Right. Well, and like there is such a difference between like consenting adults and what what this is.
• 35:21
  You're blowing my mind, Caitlin.
• 35:23
  I love you.
• 35:24
  I kind of ate me a little bit today.
• 35:26
  Why?
• 35:27
  Why?
• 35:28
  No, I love you.
• 35:30
  It's just really awful.
• 35:31
  It's awful, but you know what?
• 35:33
  And what if you fuckers requested this?
• 35:36
  You creepy fucks.
• 35:38
  What we're learning.
• 35:41
  And I feel like it's it's a really important story.
• 35:45
  These are a lot of patterns and themes that we've talked about before, but the more that we talk about them.
• 35:53
  The more that like we can try to help the people that are potentially falling prey to them and the more that we can try to bring awareness and provide resources to people.
• 36:07
  So that things like this don't happen.
• 36:10
  Jennifer Graves wrote a memoir, a light in dark places trying to salvage meaning from the wreckage of her family name.
• 36:20
  She's literally lost her father and her two brothers and her two nephews.
• 36:28
  Sister-in-law, right?
• 36:30
  Two?
• 36:31
  Yeah, I'm just thinking about it like in terms of like her direct like family line, but like to her like the loss of Susan was like really devastating too.
• 36:42
  And I feel like it can't be overstated that like she wasn't one of those people that's like an apologist for the bad behavior of her, you know, male relatives.
• 36:54
  And like that takes a lot, especially having grown up in the type of environment that I'm imagining that her, you know, that the powell children, you know, did.
• 37:07
  Yeah, look how I mean look at the other two turned out like she could have easily turned out a piece of shit too, but she didn't.
• 37:14
  Yeah.
• 37:15
  You don't have to turn out like that you have a choice, maybe go to therapy that might help. Yeah, I mean never hurts.
• 37:24
  Except that one time there is that one case that was real bad.
• 37:28
  Oh Jesus.
• 37:29
  Yeah, that's scary too. God, thanks Caitlin.
• 37:33
  Her voice joins a growing chorus of survivors teaching how control escalates to catastrophe.
• 37:41
  Psychologists later cited the Powell case as a textbook example of coercive control.
• 37:48
  The slow corrosion of autonomy that you often ends in lethal violence.
• 37:54
  Chuck and Judy Cox transformed their grief into advocacy through the Susan Cox Powell Foundation.
• 38:02
  They fund programs addressing intimate partner homicide risk and missing persons awareness. They speak often about early intervention warning signs, isolation, financial control, threats, mass, this jokes.
• 38:18
  But if somebody is making jokes about hurting you, hurting your family, your children, it's not a joke.
• 38:26
  Or even just like subtle jokes about like misogyny. Yeah. Getting the kitchen to make me a sandwich.
• 38:34
  But like I sometimes catch myself saying that, but that's like actually not very funny. No, you know, exactly.
• 38:41
  And that could be like threatening in such a subtle way.
• 38:45
  Well, and I think that's something that we have to really like be careful as women. Like even if we think we're making a joke where we're like sort of reclaiming this, you know, phrase or whatever, it's like we have to be really careful and be intentional about the things that we say because sometimes you don't know how people are going to interpret and internalize certain turns of phrase and you just can't know.
• 39:14
  The deaths of Charlie and Braden Powell didn't just devastate a family. They exposed a catastrophic failure of oversight. Susan's parents, Chuck and Judy Cox filed a civil lawsuit against the Washington State Department of Social and Health Services, DSHS arguing that the agencies negligence in granting Joshua unsupervised access had cost the boys their lives.
• 39:43
  This is like more than 10 years after Susan disappeared this next part in July 2019, appears County jury agreed jurors found DSHS negligent and awarded the Cox family 98.5 million dollars for the pain and suffering of seven year old Charlie and five year old Braden.
• 40:08
  Don't hold it too excited just that's like crazy. That's a crazy. Yeah, it's funny. You should say that. But weeks later judge Stanley Rumba reduce the verdict by two thirds to about 32.8 million calling the original award shocking to the conscience of the court.
• 40:29
  Even so he admitted the facts were quote bound to bestur passion in the hearts and minds of any rational person attorney Ted Buck representing the Cox's said the legal team would consult with the family to decide the next steps.
• 40:45
  Those steps came in April 2020. Oh, quite the timing. Fuck how how the well anything done took a long ass time. Those steps came in April 2020 when the Washington Court of Appeals reinstated the full 98.5 million dollar verdict,
• 41:05
  writing that there was substantial evidence supporting a significant award of non economic damages based on the horrific and brutal deaths of the two boys.
• 41:17
  The ruling gave the Cox family long delayed vindication. Their long time attorney Ann Bremner called the opinion beautifully written adding simply it's been a long time.
• 41:31
  Yeah, it took until like April 2023 for the decision to come back. So this is like 15 years that Susan has been gone.
• 41:41
  At that point like over a decade since the boys have gone. Wow. That's also like really fucked up not that it's about the money.
• 41:51
  It's about them like winning the thing but like and then just to like not even take the money away or whatever give them a lesser amount but to like make them go through that for a year and then I for again to like what?
• 42:09
  Like that's what just give them the 98 million and go move on. You already said it. Yeah, it takes back. These like I can't believe they were allowed to take back. These I mean I'm glad they got it in the end and yeah in the end it was like no take backs.
• 42:24
  Today the West Valley city police evidence room still houses boxes labeled power case among them a single compact disc of family photos labeled in Susan's handwriting.
• 42:37
  On the cover sheet doodle parts around her son's initials every anniversary investigators revisit leads. They no longer expect to find Susan alive.
• 42:49
  But they want to find her period. The search continues in intervals quiet methodical more about honoring a promise than expecting a miracle.
• 43:00
  And to this day Susan. Susan Cox pal. I hate to even refer to her like with the last name Powell to be honest but yeah but that's like her kids last names it is I don't think she would be offended.
• 43:16
  No, I don't mean I don't know her but. She has never been recovered. So it is a presumed homicide but I think you know everything given everything that we know about the case and everything that's happened.
• 43:29
  In the aftermath since her disappearance it feels pretty safe to assume that Susan likely died that night in December 2009 and it's horrifying to think about what her boys heard what they saw.
• 43:46
  Yeah and then to think about what happened to them just not even a handful of years later they were five and seven years old.
• 43:54
  I go by what the one little kid said in the beginning like mommy was in the trunk and like yeah you don't put people in the trunk that are usually alive or yeah and you don't leave mommy at the campsite when everybody else leaves.
• 44:10
  Like people are not in the trunk for any good reason you know like no either either passed away back there or there someone wants them to be.
• 44:19
  If you are someone you know feels trapped in a relationship that doesn't feel safe help is out there you can call or text the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-safe or visit the hotline.org.
• 44:39
  Shoe-flay. So here we are for Terra part two part and do where are we feeling left I feel like it's kind of bunching up on the other yeah okay that's so funny okay oh we're getting all types of new cards.
• 45:01
  Okay so this one is really cool this looks like the seven of cups and it shows a dragonfly and there's like that's a lily pad down at the bottom but it's yeah so it shows the lily pad and then it shows the dragonfly reflected in the water.
• 45:20
  Okay so we drew that in the reverse as well which is really interesting tell us what kind of dragonfly it is from the P&W deck.
• 45:28
  This is a Pacific fork tale damsel fly. Oh damsel in distress. Okay so keywords in our P&W book are dreams imagination fantasy day dreaming illusions choices in decision.
• 45:48
  Who illusion is like kind of a good one for this yeah like the illusion of being a nice LDS family and you a lot of illusions really but you know I was thinking too like living on what did they live on Sarah Sarah circle Sarah circle like it sounds so nice and like hold some
• 46:11
  it does it wasn't it was an illusion down here it's dark and quiet oh the water flows smoothly along its winding currents and the sediment and lily leaves corp collaborate to cast the muddy floor and shade but if you look up you might catch a glimpse of light and color the image will be distorted dream like a flash of lapis lazuli
• 46:40
  astrowing diamond flicker time to rapid wing beats a ripple of deep black that catches the sun like opal well that's kind of weird because we were literally just talking about the tailors
• 46:56
  and the
• 46:57
  sun with opal light yeah there's actually some other like iconography that in both of the terrors kind of have related to our offline conversations that's kind of very weird I'm not going to get into it yeah it was offline but it was an offline conversation
• 47:16
  clearly you'll have to approach pursue leave behind the safe familiarity of the underwater blade and vault into the light the sunlight will stun you into momentary blindness and the muffled murmur of the water will give way to a roar of crashing and burbling
• 47:38
  but regaining your bearings you can see the damselfly clearly free from refractions up close it looks only a little like you expected but it's no less spectacular wow why do I feel like she's like in the water somewhere
• 47:56
  yeah that was kind of my first thought I mean it's so hard because it's like so much desert and shit around the right right yeah like maybe they weren't maybe he was trying to like throw them off
• 48:07
  he did spend a lot of time driving around you know the lake right Salt Lake area so oh no I don't know I mean it God I mean obviously we don't know but you're totally right I forgot that you said that about the
• 48:24
  late keywords are possibilities potential imagination fantasy and we drew this in the reverse I love that other keyword on the the little interpretation book about the illusion and I feel like that adds so much it does the reverse seven can mean either you're in a
• 48:46
  new fog about your future or conversely you're finally gaining clarity about your direction in life perhaps dreams you held in the past no longer interest you and you're replacing them with new goals was she plant did you
• 49:01
  mentioned she was planning to leave him or was she just writing about I mean I I have to assume that the thought had potentially entered her mind but I at least did not
• 49:14
  really come across anything concrete that was saying she had a plan in place to leave but it seemed like she was more in a defensive position at this stage it was about protecting yeah you know herself
• 49:28
  their financial assets right you know that we're primarily due to what she had provided and then you know obviously protecting their children that protective like crab
• 49:41
  and then you know that's the thing we were talking about in the first arrow in a reading about money deception is a possibility someone else may be unreliable
• 49:52
  ding ding ding ding ding ding or you may be deceiving yourself or both two things can be true two things can be true if the reading is about your job your ideas and projects may not bear fruit
• 50:06
  and then it yeah partly because you lack the incentive and focus to move them along perhaps you feel lazy or uninspired you'd rather dream them work listen to it the shoe fits Cinderella in a reading about love the reverse
• 50:23
  seven can indicate lack of commitment or indecision in a romantic affair you may want to keep your options open indefinitely or you may
• 50:33
  be able to get a relationship all out of proportion refusing to see the true that's like the the dad who was obsessed the step done no it was her father in law that's what I
• 50:45
  mean that's my brain just like can't it's I'm so grossed out by it's really gross yeah really that would be worse no
• 50:53
  no honestly they're all bad it's all bad there's no scenario where someone who's in a father type figure in your life becomes obsessed with you it is literally like stalking you
• 51:06
  and stealing their personal items and like taking photos of you yeah that's so gross like he was so delusional
• 51:14
  there's no there's just no way that's not like the creepiest thing like it is it's terrible I hate it all right well was that it yeah wait okay so we got sevens on both
• 51:28
  tariffs right yeah you're right what does that mean though when we pulled two sevens I want to know what that mean I don't know
• 51:35
  what does it mean you guys I mean I guess we could just look at numerism right or is that the right word numerology numerology
• 51:44
  yeah numerism what I mean numerism new words okay I don't know I don't know what bearing I feel like this maybe has but in numerology the number seven
• 51:55
  symbolizes intellectualism spirituality and intuition it represents the secret of truth and knowledge a person who is often introspective and a
• 52:07
  deep thinker okay I think I think I think I'm seeing it now it's definitely not Josh yeah I feel like this is this is Susan yeah those associated with the number seven are drawn to philosophy and a deeper
• 52:23
  understanding of the world but their introspective nature can also lead to emotional detachment or loneliness says highly intelligent logical and curious
• 52:35
  interesting a very like deeply spiritual nature seeking deeper meaning well yeah she was part of like this religion she's got to be very spiritual yeah
• 52:49
  also her being so intuitive to kind of like write things down and make like a little paper trail of like if I disappear you know might not be an accident like that's very intuitive of her
• 53:03
  I was just going to say so I looked at this a little bit deeper and I just think this is kind of an interesting perspective from like numerology it says analytical and intellectual
• 53:17
  sevens are deep thinkers a logical problem solvers who enjoy research and investigation oh they don't take things at face value and need facts and personal experience to form their beliefs highly
• 53:31
  perceptive and insightful wise with a deep understanding of human nature okay in connection with religion I just found this just as I'm like scrolling just for some numerology
• 53:46
  insight it says the number seven holds significant meaning across many different cultures and belief systems so if we're looking at it from like a Christian biblical sense it says it symbolizes divine perfection and completeness e.g. the seven days of creation
• 54:07
  creation that is really interesting oh boy sorry that ruined it with that I went the right I went the ring on you guys my bad I know I went all summer up on your asses that's triggering for me have a creepy ass day see you next Thursday
• 54:30
  oh boy
• 54:37
  [BLANK_AUDIO]