Latest / The Epstein Chronicles / Inside The OIG Interview: The Testimony Of An Unnamed MCC Lieutenant (Part 10) (5/2/26)

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Inside The OIG Interview: The Testimony Of An Unnamed MCC Lieutenant (Part 10) (5/2/26) · The Epstein Chronicles

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Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
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Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick back
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up where we left off with the unnamed lieutenant and
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his interview with the OIG investigators. Question all right, to
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your knowledge if they're doing the count though, that's all
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on the shoe, the people that are in there right now,
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nothing to do with lieutenants. Answer no question, Okay, there
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is no way for like, anyone else other than the
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people in the shoe. Or let me ask it a
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different way, is there any way for anyone other than
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the shoe to know that they're not doing the counts?
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Answer no question, No, okay, anything that you didn't initial,
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just again to say that we showed it to you. Answer,
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so what does this pertain to thomasin Owell? Question? Well,
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it's everybody, you know, because everybody that's in the shoe,
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right We've got to talk to them, Hey, did you
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conduct these counts or these you know, because this just
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brought to light the fact that it doesn't appear that
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the counts were ever being conducted, So we've got to
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that's why we've got to talk to the people that
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we want to talk to first, people like yourself that
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were lieutenants on duty. Hey, do you know anything about this?
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Did you do? You know? Answer? I mean they wasn't
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counting questioned, Yeah, I know, but I mean just letting
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you know, like, oh, yeah, first we want to talk
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to you know about the cell mate. Hey, did you
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know anything about this? Did you? It looks like from
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the way that this memo reads, we assume that either
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you or redacted toll redacted, Hey, he's WAB. Make sure
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he gets a cell mate, because that's one of the
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reasons why we want to talk. He gets cut off
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by the lieutenant based on that memo question, Yeah, because
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like the fact he's saying, I knew, I knew he
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was going WAB and I told him, Hey, make sure
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he gets to have a cell mate. So the assumption
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that we were going off of is that either you
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and or redacted spoke to redacted and said he's going
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wa make sure he gets a cell mate. But it
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sounds like what you're saying is you don't You didn't
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even know, and you never had that conversation answer with
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redacted and everything, No, I don't even know. I never
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knew the dude until that thing came out. You know
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what I mean, he would be would have been notified.
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Question right answer, But again I mean we do get notified,
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but usually R and D calls us up. Hey, those
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two guys ain't coming back. Question And is it your
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belief all right? If you said you didn't speak with him,
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so probably he was notified directly from Control or R
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and D. Answer, I would say probably R and D. Question,
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So R and D wouldn't call control, and Control wouldn't
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call him. R and D would call directly to the shoe. Answer.
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That's how we used to do it. Question, Okay, And
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that's how it would always be. So when you were
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in the shoe, R and D would call you directly. Answer.
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But again that's evening watch. Again, that's on evening watch.
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That's not coming back. Question. But at one fifty, that's
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early and that's when it's notified. All right. So if
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he doesn't have WAB listed on his name on the
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court list that morning, and that's what people have told us,
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So we're going on the assumption that and this is
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an assumption that he was somebody was contacted in the
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shoe saying hey, it looks like he's not coming back.
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He did right, possibly but that's the first that we're
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seeing WAB. So the thought is that someone contacted or tacted.
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We haven't. We've got to talk to him. But like
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I said, hey, it doesn't look like he's coming back.
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You know, we're just notifying you now. And again, we
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were told typically the way it works, and it sounds
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like you're correcting us. R and D typically calls control,
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control calls ops, OPS calls the shoe. Is that correct? Answer?
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What when an inmate doesn't come back? Question? Yeah, answer no, question, No,
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it doesn't work that way. So R and D you're saying,
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typically just would go straight to shoe. Answer, that's a
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heads up, that's a courtesy question, right answer, Hey, this
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guy's not coming back? Control nos, Control Nos. They call
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control too, but usually they call in you know, why
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would you call me? You know you and the shoe question.
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That's just what we were told. Answer, Hey, this guy's
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not coming back. Question. And then again, we're only as
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good as the people who we talk to. Whatever information
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we get is like people like yourself trying to like, hey,
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I know it's probably like yourself. It sounds like, at
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least in the beginning of this thing, you seem pretty
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nervous to talk to us because we're really just trying
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to He gets caught off by the lieutenant. No. No,
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the thing about it, The thing is, I know this,
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this is a high profile case. People look into, point fingers,
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blame someone who dropped the ball, who did this? And
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that question I totally get it. Answer. I mean, two
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years later now it's still like, okay, let's go down
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and see question and the reason why. I'm sure you
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saw on the papers what happened recently? Answer? Yeah, question,
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Well that now allows us to try and come back
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and try to figure out all right, now we can
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do He gets cut off by the lieutenant. Yeah, but
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you're going to go after a whole shift, you know.
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Question It's not necessarily go after the whole shift. But
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we've got to figure out what went wrong at the
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MCC and what needs to be fixed. Do you know
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what I'm saying. But I get it, trust me. He
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gets cut off by the lieutenant just to deal they
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have suicides, man, like they do. Question Yeah, Yeah, totally answer.
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He just happened to be a high profile one question, right,
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and because it's so high profile and the fact that
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we were he gets cut off by the lieutenant. The
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other things with yeah, yeah, I know. Question, all those
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other things are going on. Now it looks like there
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was some false you know, slips that were created. Answer yeah,
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question they weren't doing counts, you know, are getting these
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signs saying that, hey, you're supposed to check on them.
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Every gets cut off by the lieutenant. Yeah, that's not normal,
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definitely question Yeah. So yeah, and you're right, it's because
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it's a high profile gets cut off by the lieutenant.
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I was there for ten years. I used to do
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that stuff and all that. That's not normal. Question. What's
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not normal? Answer? Miscounts and all that. Yeah. Question, and
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so you're saying that this seems to be abnormal. Answer,
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it's definitely abnormal. Question. When you were in the shoe
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did you ever were you ever did you ever experience
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people not doing counts? Answer? No question. People always did
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counts when you were there. Answer yeah, but here question
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and that's you know, that's what people that's what the
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conspiracy theorist come in and all that kind of stuff
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like wow, this one day, and that's where we've got
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to all right, well, let's figure out what actually happened.
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Is this abnormal or is it normal. You're saying that
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this seems to be very abnormal day. Answer. I'm talking
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about that's why the counts and the slips and the
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rounds and the falsifying stuff like that, but everything else.
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I mean, this place is a busy place. Question. Yeah. Answer,
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You know, they lose inmates, go out wab all the
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time new inmates come in, So this is a revolving door. Question.
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All right, I know we're talking a lot longer than
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we thought. Let me just go through a lot of
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these things now, Just back to the round sheet. Where
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what is the purpose of a supervisor actually signing this
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round sheet? Answer? Making sure that the officer is following
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and doing their rounds how they're supposed to be question,
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And we don't really need to look at it, all right,
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So it's not to verify that they were done. It's
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to verify that the sheets are being kept up. Question.
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So if I go up there and I see the
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times you all made a round after forty minutes, what
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happened there? Question? So you ask them about that? Answer? Right, question,
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But on this date you can't. You don't remember going
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and speaking to them. Answer, I said, I could have went.
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I don't recall question Okay, and again just going forward,
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know that these are just simply questions to see what
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we can find out about that day and as well
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as you know, the point being you saying that this
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is such an abnormal day and it was such a
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big event that's been in the news now for two years.
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Just try and really place yourself. What was your role
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on that day? Answer? Yeah, Like I said, I just
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know I worked and that was it. Question all right,
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And as far as you know, where rounds being conducted
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in the Shoe at that time? Answer yeah, it's day watch.
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You've got to make your rounds. Question on day watch,
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You've got to answer. There's no way you can avoid
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around on day watch. Question what about for And I'm
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not talking about just your shift, I'm saying the Shoe
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in general. Are you aware that rounds weren't being conducted
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on the evening watch or a morning watch? Answer weren't.
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Question Yeah, we're not answer evening watch. You've got to
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make rounds too. I worked at the Shoe for years.
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You have to You've got to go question so when
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when you were there they were being conducted? Answer? Yeah,
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That's what I'm saying. The whole mess of the count thing.
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I'm like, I don't know. Question any of those people
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that we discussed that were on the day watch and
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you know, anybody working in the Shoe on August ninth
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and tenth, do you have any recollection of speaking with
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any of those people about morning watch or I mean,
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not morning watch, about speaking with about rounds or counts.
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Answer no, question no. And now, being that you were
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an OPS the oppsolueutenant, it sounds like your quarterly post.
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Would that be something that you would visit with them
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and just say, hey, guys, make sure what you're doing
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and that you're doing your rounds or anything like that.
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Would that be a duty or responsibility of an obsoleutenant? Answer? Yeah,
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but not, it's not really my responsibility. It's the Shoe lieutenant.
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Question yeah, yeah. Did you have any conversations with the
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Shoe lieutenant at that time? Answer? Yeah, I talked to
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the Shoe lieutenant redacted? Yeah. Question yeah yeah, answer, oh no,
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you said it was redacted? Right question right answer? Yeah.
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Question do you remember talking to him at all about
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Epstein or redacted? Answer? I ain't seen him since that
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day question prior. What I'm asking about is up until
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Longust tenth, answer no. Question do you remember ever conversing
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with redacted about making sure you're going to do these
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rounds and that Epstein's being you know, looked at, or
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he's got a cell mate or anything like that. Answer Man,
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I don't recall that question No answer yeah, but we
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all know it's you. You got the email. Question right,
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the email saying he needs a cell mate? Answer yeah,
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and all the lieutenants know. They say, oh, such and
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such got we got the email. He was off watch
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you know. Question do you think it's acceptable for any
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lieutenant to say that they didn't know that Epstein needed
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a cell mate? Answer some people say they didn't know
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the cellmate left. Question No. If they're saying that, let's
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just talk about the people on that day. Let's talk about, like,
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for instance, somebody that maybe wasn't normally a lieutenant. Can
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you redacted? Question all right, so she's in you said, basically,
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she's in training. She is like an acting lieutenant. She's
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the person he gets cut off by the lieutenant. I
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don't think she was acting that day either though. Question Well,
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I just mean that she was activity as lieutenant. Answer yeah, yeah,
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question sorry, she was the activity as lieutenant and she
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was either training or she's typically an SOS at the time. Though,
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should she have known by Epstein being on the hot list?
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In Epstein, you know, coming off suicide Watch, should she
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have just known that he was required to have a cellmate? Answer?
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No question? No, what about redacted? Should he have known? Answer?
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I mean, that's only if you're aware, though, if I'm
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not aware the guy left question. I thought you said
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if you're First of all, I thought you said that
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everybody knows that in the shoe you're supposed to have
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a cell mate unless you're a certain classification. Answer yeah,
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but sometimes it be an odd number and they can't
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have one. Question. But then the second thing would be
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that he's on the hot list. Everybody knows that if
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you're on the hot list, you're supposed to have a
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cell mate right answer, yeah question. And then the third
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thing would be that there's an actual email that was
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sent out and that said he's supposed to have a
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cell mate. Answer right question. So that's where with all
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that in mind, and I'm not pointing to one person
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out in particular, What I'm just asking is these people
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that were working, so you're not like throwing somebody under
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the bus. I'm just asking like, as far as these
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people go, should redact it have known that there should
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have been redacted? And I'm not saying that he knew.
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These people may very well not have known what was
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going on. I'm just asking like, in general with their positions.
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Answer in general, well, I probably redacted never got the
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email question like you're saying you knew, So, yes, he knew,
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should have redacted have known answer? I think all lieutenants
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should have known. Question what about he gets cut off
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by the lieutenant? But then again we all have If
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you're not aware to the inmate leaving, there's no reason
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to follow up question. And that's why I started after you.
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So at this point you said, at least by eight
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people should have known that he's not coming back. So
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that's where I'm going off of. All right, there's three
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lieutenants from that point after you leave, there's three lieutenants. Right,
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there's redacted, redacted, and redacted, and then the next morning
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redacted lane should redacted who replaced you? Should she have
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known that he needed a sellmate? Answer? I could see
13:58
her not knowing. Question is that because she wasn't a lieutenant? Answer?
14:02
Not a lieutenant question Okay, what about redacted answer, he's
14:07
not a lieutenant question should he have known? Answer? Yeah
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or new? Like I said, we all knew because we
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got the email. Question and then what about redacted lane?
14:20
Not only the email though it sounds like there was
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at least three checks. One he's in the shoe, should
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have a cell mate. Two he came off of suicide Watch,
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should have a cell mate. Three an email was sent
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out to all the lieutenants. Should have a cell mate?
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Answer yeah, but two and three happens all the time though,
14:40
Like the guy comes off suicide Watch, you put him
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in shoe with the cell mate. And then again that's
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not forever question, but in this case, you know July
14:49
thirtieth to August ninth or tenth. Answer. But is it said?
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I don't think that's up to psychology, because we have
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other guys on suicide Watch, same thing. Once they leave,
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they didn't commit suicide, and it's nothing question. So if
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you get this email then on July thirtieth saying make
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sure that he's got a cell mate, answer, there's no
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time on it. Question in your mind? Is that well
15:12
two weeks from now, he doesn't need one anymore? Answer?
15:15
There's no set time. It's just immediately this guy's coming
15:18
off a guy maybe got kicked out of the unit.
15:21
Question Okay, so in this case, all right, how should
15:24
it have been? What kind of notification should have been made? Then? Answer?
15:28
This is a tough one. But if he's a guy
15:30
and he goes to court, then he leaves, you know,
15:33
and you're doing your daily operation. There's so much going on, Epstein,
15:37
Ain't you know, I know he's a high profile to
15:39
the outside. Question but I mean he's still on the
15:43
hot list. Answer yeah, question so he's on the hot
15:47
list still. So doesn't that indicate that he needs a
15:50
cell mate if he's still on the hot list? Answer? Yeah,
15:53
but he had one question, right, And that's what I'm
15:55
saying by we're knocking you, and we're knocking redacted out
15:59
of this thing because you're saying eight o'clock. So now
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let's look at eight o'clock on let's say even for
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this instance, let's say even redacted and redacted, they didn't know.
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Now look at redacted lane, certainly by midnight you should
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have known, right answer Yeah, but not a lieutenant though.
16:17
Question no answer, like if the information is told to me,
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he gets cut off by the investigator. But if they're
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coming in and saying you said that they needed to
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do around right for the case, or needed to do
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around in the shoe, correct, check on all the inmates? Answer?
16:35
Check inmates feeding or officers making sure they're doing the rounds,
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or go to the shoe question redacted lane. Was she
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required to check on all the inmates and do around?
16:47
Answer when she was probably doing around? Yeah? Question? All right,
16:53
so as far as her by that point, now we've
16:56
only got you know where. Now you know, let's say
16:59
that she's the one that corrected, you know, the count
17:01
slip she caught, that she goes, she visited, she's supposed
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to go to the shoe. She's supposed to actually visit
17:08
all the tears and do around. Answer. I mean our
17:11
policy is really to say you've got to do around
17:13
in the shoe. You know, so in the shoe, you
17:15
in the shoe. I don't know what she did. Question,
17:18
And that's where I was getting to before. I'm doing
17:21
around in the shoe for a lieutenant. Does that mean
17:23
just walking into the shoe and walking out or does
17:26
that intel actually doing something when you're in there? Answer?
17:32
I don't think there's no guidance on that question. So
17:36
we've talked to other people and they've told us, when
17:39
you a lieutenant is actually required to walk in the
17:41
tears and conduct around, not to list it on the
17:44
round sheet. But like the people who list those rounds
17:48
on the round sheet, is that your understanding of what
17:51
you're supposed to do? Answer? I mean, yeah, question, so
17:55
is that what she should have done? She should have
17:57
walked the line the tears and checked on the inmate.
18:00
Answer yeah, question by policy, I'm saying, answer by policy,
18:05
you've got to make around question, and that round is
18:08
classified as like around, like the CEOs who are in
18:11
the shoe to do around. Answer, I've got a double
18:15
check on that question. Okay, answer to tell you the
18:18
truth question, and that's what's unsure. Answer, yeah, question, you're unclear, okay.
18:24
And that's where I'm trying to go because we've also
18:27
had less people, but some people have also said no,
18:30
around for a lieutenant and around for a CEO is different.
18:33
Around for a lieutenant is visiting the shoe and checking
18:36
in with the officers. We've had more people say no,
18:40
you need to go into the shoe, you need to
18:41
check with the officers. But you also need to walk
18:44
the tier and I'm trying to get to like he
18:47
gets cut off by the lieutenant. It depends on the
18:49
lieutenant question and their interpretation. Answer Yeah, like I said,
18:55
that's why I really don't I'll have to check on
18:57
that part. Question Okay, and what policy would that be in?
19:01
Where would it spell that out? Answer? That would be
19:03
an inmate discipline, which is shoe which also would probably
19:07
be in psychology questions, So it would probably be psychology
19:11
for the lieutenant that they need to do it. Answer.
19:14
I know it's about thirty and everything question, but it
19:16
would also be like gets cut off, but for lieutenants
19:20
answer a question, it would also be like shoe type answer. Yeah,
19:24
but I'm thinking it's more policies. Question. Well, I got
19:29
the shoe policy, I don't have the psychology answer. It
19:33
isn't in there. Question I don't know. I was going
19:36
to look answer, Yeah, let me see it might be
19:39
psychology is definitely the thirty minute rounds question. Again, these
19:45
aren't gotcha, These are genuine questions, But psychology you think
19:48
might have had like lieutenants, he gets cut off by
19:52
the lieutenant, Well, they definitely with the thirty minutes he
19:55
gets cut off now by the investigator. Yeah, I mean,
19:58
the shoe policy clearly states that need to be conducted.
20:01
I just haven't seen anything that said lieutenants need to
20:04
do it. And that's where I mean. You can look
20:06
through them if you want answer. Nah, I think it's
20:09
in there, and it may not be in there, but
20:11
it's definitely in there. All right, we're gonna wrap up
20:15
right here, and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
20:17
we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the
20:19
information that goes with this episode can be found in
20:22
the description box.