Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH SE1:E25 - Between tradition & innovation, masoret & chidush
Transcript
- speaker-0: I'm weaving through the city of Jerusalem and coming to where we are now, the studio, and I see this one photo of (Menachem Mendel Schneerson) the Chabad rabbi, Rebbe, and often understood to be the Messiah or or some incarnation of the Messiah. And there's a photo of him as they're often you find around Jerusalem. And except on this photo, there's the Chabad Rabbi but covering his eyes is a pride flag. speaker-1: the tradition asks you the religion asks you to How do you commit yourself totally? How do you actually give yourself to the divine through in Judaism, through legal norms, through mitzvot? how do you do it? You the commitment comes from, you know, thinking about the past and taking it very seriously. Something about it, for me, I mean, is very It's like a freezer. I mean it frees you. It it paralyzes you. And it's a very I mean for a religious person, in my view, it's a much more I mean acute par problem how to innovate your life. And I think when I look about Jewish tradition, I would say that I feel that two thousand years ago they were actually better it at it. speaker-0: You can do nothing that's religious. You don't need to light candles, you don't need to say a prayer over wine, you don't need to fast on Yom Kippur, and still the essence of your existence here is somehow Jewish. Whereas I think the opposite is true in a diaspora experience, that you shed or you might shed all of the aspects of Jewish practice, but then you just blend into the world outside. And that's a very different kind of so the people who are contributing to cultural life here. Welcome to Really Jewish. Welcome to our conversation about what it is to be Jewish. I'm joined in Jerusalem with my friend and colleague Yair Eldan It's really exciting to be back here recording another episode in Nomi Studios. If you're here for the first time, Bruchim Ha'Bai'im if you're coming back, welcome back. we are having a conversation this week about masoret and chidush about tradition and innovation. But I just want to flag also Had some cool episodes of the last few weeks with my friend and colleague Miriam Arkush Lorie Rabbi Vadim, one of my good friends, Avshalumov Rabbi Roni Tabick Rabbi Joel Levy. Just some cool episodes, one on Maalach Hamavet the Angel of Death, one on blasphemy with Rabbi Joel. coming up for our just before Rosh Hodesh episode, we have episode with Mishy Harman who is one of the leads at Israel's story here in Jerusalem where we're recording. It's really exciting to welcome him. So catch the episode coming up. Loads of cool things happening on our podcast. This is a podcast where we talk about big topics affecting the Jewish people. try to get to some of the depth of what it is to be Jewish in this generation. I often say to people, both on the podcast and off, what we're trying to do here is like offer a fly in the wall experience of some kind of conversation at depth of what's going on in the Jewish community and what it means to be Really Jewish. so welcome back and thank you ear for being with us. it's really fun to be here in Jerusalem together. speaker-1: Wonderful. I love it when we have this post podcast together because something about the distance, I mean the actual distance is is makes things a little bit I don't know, more complicated. And when you when we are in the same in the same room together, I feel that I don't know In a way the differences between us are more clear, but the similarities between us, our Jewish experiences are also better observed. So I don't know. I just love it that we're together. Yeah. Thank you for for coming again and it's wonderful to have you. speaker-0: Thank you. Thank you. So we're here in Nomi Studios. It's exciting to have the opportunity to record together in an actual studio. This is very exciting. When I first started the podcast, I spoke to a lot of people for almost a year about starting a podcast. And one the things they said, one of the guys that I spent to in another studio in London said, You have to do your recording in person. It's the only way to do it. Now, of course, the Really Jewish podcast has done most of our recording online in a virtual studio, but there is something about So that has its advantages because we get to speak to loads of different people across the Jewish world and beyond. And then there's also the advantage of coming together, having coffee together, talking together. So this week we're talking about masoret and chidush Masoret is roughly translated as tradition, perhaps with a note of continuity of tradition, perhaps. And hiddush l'chadesh newness is translated as innovation. how would you translate these two cornerstones of the Jewish tradition and why are we talking about Masoret and chidush today, Yair in your mind? speaker-1: for me the issue is an everyday issue. I mean we always even unconsciously decide what we are taking from the past and what we are leaving behind and trying to, you know, pave our away in our original and authentic way. And because a Jewish tradition is such an ancient tradition and we have this burden of our ancestors who are watching behind our backs, I think the issue is even more acute. so for me it's an everyday issue. I mean innovation and tradition are intertwined in our life in Jerusalem, I think every every minute. Tomorrow is Friday, so Hadasah my wife is going to lit the the Shabbat candles and then we are going to watch TV and maybe have a Shabbat dinner if we want. Not every Shabbat we have it. We're going to have a smoke on our porch. so we I mean if my father would I mean imagine my life, yeah. he wouldn't imagine imagined it like that. I mean How how is it for you? is it an everyday issue for you or you don't think about it in everyday life? speaker-0: No, I do. It's really fascinating because we just you know, I just arrived to Jerusalem. I came up on the train this morning from the Mercaz from Hertzlyiah where we are for a couple of weeks. And I say saying to you before, like arriving in Jerusalem always feels very much like home because I lived here for for five years and it's a place that feels both very familiar and very unfamiliar 'cause Jerusalem is changing rapidly and significantly for our eyes. lots of building works and a new tram system like rail system that's being installed. But I took a little photo from the bus as I when you get the bus in Jerusalem, you're normally weaving through because Jerusalem is built on a hill, so you're nothing ever goes in a straight line. So I'm weaving through the city of Jerusalem and coming to where we are now, the studio, and I see this one photo of (Menachem Mendel Schneerson) the Chabad rabbi, Rebbe, and often understood to be the Messiah or or some incarnation of the Messiah. And there's a photo of him as they're often you find around Jerusalem. And except on this photo, there's the Chabad Rabbi but covering his eyes is a pride flag. And it just occurred to me, like as we were saying before, it's you know, I'm not endorsing the facing of photos of of Schneerson of the Chabad Rabbi, Rebbe, but it exactly on some level exemplifies this topic that in some way or other He as a rabbi, as a rebe, as a key leader of the Chabad movement exemplifies something of Masoret of the tradition, of the transmission of the tradition, and of the maintenance of that tradition, and also degrees of chidush because he also was an innovator, if we're just being clear on the complexity of the terminology. But the the pride flag is kind of framing of some of the tensions in Jerusalem of a desire to renew and innovate and and create religious freedom in this city and and and pride around LGBTQ issues and and freedom of expression, all of those things which in many ways kind of drives forward away from the traditional life of Jerusalem. I think I also just as we were doing some of the words of preparation before I The verse from Genesis kind of jumped out to me, which is, you know, I'm a twin. shout out to my twin Kate. the one of the my favorite verses of Tanakh is when Rivka is pregnant with twins, with Jacob and Esau, and she's in pain with pregnancy, and the verse reads V'yitrot'zetzu b'kirbah that they were fighting or struggling inside of her in her womb. This kind of big questioning that she takes on. She's asking if so, it's very hard to translate, if so, why am I why am I? An existential feeling, and then this the last part of the verse is. v'telech lidrosh et Adonai And she disappears or she goes off and she inquires with God. Now the verb is interesting because it's Lidrosh, drasha There's something here, because when you described before in your opening words about about the aspect of innovation, you described innovation as that which we want to take behind with us and that which we want to leave behind. And and here too. There's this core moment in her life where she's trying to make head or tail of what's going on. Trying to understand what's going on here, and a part of the stance is to understand the depth of the experience by way of God. And maybe that's a core kind of aspect of the core aspect of the understanding of. innovation against a a maintenance of the tradition is lidrosh et Adonai to ask of ourselves who we are and which parts we want to take with us and which parts we want to leave behind. But that's not necessarily a religious answer, but that's definitely a personal answer in terms of how we work out who we are and where we're going. speaker-1: you I mean it's a very beautiful insight in the whole concept of the Russia. I mean the fact or the action that the rabbis take with regard to the biblical text which they say we are going to seek for its deep meaning, Lydrosh to seek its deep meaning, not necessarily the literary interpretation of it. So They are trying to innovate through tradition, which is beautiful. But for me, I mean, I'm just saying, your example about the Chabad rabbi is actually could be could be understood in the same line, through the same line, saying, listen, it's a beautiful, listen, how beautiful Jerusalem is. we have this very traditional aspect of seeing the Hasidic rabbi as s some kind of a Messiah. and the LGTB community feels comfortable covering his eyes with but it's actually we both know it's a romantization of what's going on here. Actually, I would say I'm trying not to be so harsh, but I would say that nationally speaking, even in Jerusalem, it's a total failure of the tension between innovation and tradition. we can't we didn't find the balance and I know from a personal point of view I would say that in my personal life I feel that there is something very I mean I feel very comfortable with the balance between innovation and tradition and I would say that I mean tradition is there as a basic, but it has a small portion in my life. and the innovation is actually taking a larger place. But in our national life I feel it's a total t failure. I'm thinking about the Jewish tradition inside our national life. Wow, I'm I'm not sure about it, but talking about Israel as a Jewish state. And the tension between innovation and tradition I feel we didn't find our way yet. speaker-0: Hm. So Rabbi Joel is coming to be a regular contributor to the podcast and he says, we are very early in the tradition in the nineteen forty eight tradition of a state of Israel. Like we are in the baby steps of what it is to build a state. And that that's kind of some comfort in terms of we are working it out and that balance is really one of the core tensions. And I would say, you know, there is a battle that's going on between those two places. You were talking before about some of the ultra Orthodox in the city picketing, I think you would say, or protesting outside one of the cafes that's open on Shabbat at the moment in Jerusalem, and how that is one of the cool places of contention about whether the secular citizens and non Jewish citizens of of this city are able to carry out life on Shabbat. in particular the on Saturday, the Jewish Day of Rest, in opposition or in different practice to the some of the very religious factions that that live and exist in the city. That that's a live question right now. an another part of the story in terms of the religious part is also about replication versus innovation, because I often say to my bar mitzvah students who come, you know, students who are celebrating kind of coming of age moments, bar mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah that on in synagogue we read from the Torah, which is an an exact replication of the masoret text, the on the same lines that we read and have read for tens and j Two thousand years of generations of Torah readings reading inside the synagogue from the same scroll, the same parshiot the same sections of of the Torah each week. And then somebody stands up, in this instance the Bar Mitzvah boy, the Bar Mitzvah Galah says something about the parshat. And each week that'll be something entirely different, entirely new. So even just built into like the fabric of and that's true across All communities if you're going to show. you have the aspect of the maintenance of the tradition inside the Jewish practice and then also aspects of innovation and go on. speaker-1: No, I'm just saying y I mean I I totally agree. I mean it's not it didn't come from nowhere. the bible itself, the genre of the bible is allowing us because it's open ended, because it has a lot of gaps in it. Auerbach talked about it in Mimesis. It's comparing the sacrifice of Isaac the with the Homeric Odyssey. and he says something about the Bible is open and then we can reinterpret it and read into it. And I think that's amazing when you think about innovation and tradition. not every culture can say that about her canon, canonical texts. But Listen in Israel, I mean I'm trying to think about life Jewish life in England to with compared to Jewish life in Israel and I and I think about I mean nationally, politically speaking, I think we are a big failure, but culturally th speaking, I think I mean we have this tremendous I don't know, mixture of innovation and tradition in songwriting, every aspect of culture, literature, poetry, music. I'm thinking about Odeya. Did you hear about this Israeli, a very popular singer? She is like a beautiful mixture of tradition and innovation. she could cite a prayer, you know, Sh’hecheh’zarta li’ bi’ nishmati and like you restored My soul in the morning, which we say any morning modeani, I thank you God. and in another line talk about her sex life, about her problem in relationship and everything. I mean it's beautiful and you can find it in every aspect of culture. And I wonder if you have the same kind of parallel in your Jewish life in England. speaker-0: Yeah, it's so interesting. No, because it's one of the reasons why I'm I've said this on the podcast, I think, one of the reasons why I'm drawn to Jerusalem and I often sit with the image of it's a historic image now, 'cause I haven't lived in Israel for more than ten years, but of being here on Shavuot and just being able to go from place to place to place to place. I imagined on those evenings of Shavuot on the festival of receiving the Torah, where there's the tradition of staying up all night to study, which is in some measure in Jerusalem, at least equally observed between secular Jews and religious Jews in Jerusalem. And you could go from like a theatre production to a music venue where people are playing kind of live music to to kind of comedy, to traditional Torah study, to non traditional Torah study, to you know, just a year's worth of different classes and and expressions of Shavuot in one city on one night. like a Laila Lavan for the Torah. and that seems to me like a kind of live expression of the of the masoret and chidush of the tradition of staying up all night, which is probably only about three or four hundred years old, but nevertheless a tradition of taking Torah sor seriously. And the chidush the innovation of doing that in a real myriad ways. Shivim panim Le'Torah, there are seventy faces of the Torah that we can draw out the aspect of learning or deepening our relationship with Jewish life in a diverse way. And there's in that respect, there's nothing like this modern state with all of its troubles and anxieties for drawing out and promoting and impassioning, if that's a word, the possibility for cultural innovation and rejuvenation. Which is in other in many ways was static and held back in some of the experience of diaspora. But I wanna answer your question as well. In Europe, yesh matzav there's definitely stuff going on in the European context of great innovation, perhaps innovation that couldn't happen in Israel because the experience of the Jew, the Jewish person outside of Israel is different from the diaspora experience perhaps in a more even more pronounced way now. And I can think of, you know, this podcast is not to big us up too much, is in some way or other born out of the diaspora, the kind of true European experience and some of my relationship with Judaism has shifted over the last few years and pushed me to certainly reach new heights in my own examination and exploration of of Jewish life. So there's definitely innovation that's going on in a context that's in the UK and a and beyond. And we are pushed in many ways, sometimes by way of the difficulty of diaspora life, to find those moments of profound reinvention and re-articulation of Judaism. But It's different, let's say, from the from the experience of Israel, which feels much freer and much more capable to really fully examine the broad diversity and intricacies and nooks and crannies of what it is to be Jewish. And listen, I hear this from lots of friends who have moved here and lots of Israeli friends who've always lived here that I think that maybe this is part of your secular experience, which you can say for yourself, but You can do nothing that's religious. You don't need to light candles, you don't need to say a prayer over wine, you don't need to fast on Yom Kippur, and still the essence of your existence here is somehow Jewish. Whereas I think the opposite is true in a diaspora experience, that you shed or you might shed all of the aspects of Jewish practice, but then you just blend into the to the world outside. And that's a very different kind of so the people who are contributing to cultural life here. in a very explicitly and unapologetically Jewish way, might not be traditionally observant in any respect of the word, but is still nevertheless contributing to Jewish culture. And I don't think you can say that in the world outside of Israel where those corners of the population kind of just blend in. speaker-1: You know, the elephant in the room between us, you as a religious person and I as a secular, is I think the fact that religion and the Jewish religion in particular is a conservative traditional it has a very conservative aspect of it. you know, I'm I teach law and legal systems are also very conservative because they're supposed to give stability to people and certainty and people sh should know. I I mean they want to wake up in the morning and know what are the legal rules, what are the norms that they are going to be committed to during the day and whether or not they could sign a contract with people. With religion it's even I think more serious to be I mean the I think the the how do you say Briatamihdal the best I mean the option for religion is to be traditional. I mean because the tradition asks you the religion asks you to How do you commit yourself totally? How do you actually give yourself to the divine through in Judaism, through legal norms, through mitzvot? how do you do it? You the commitment comes from, you know, thinking about the past and taking it very seriously. Something about it, for me, I mean, is very It's like a freezer. I mean it frees you. It it paralyzes you. And it's a very I mean for a religious person, in my view, it's a much more I mean acute par problem how to innovate your life. And I think when I look about Jewish tradition, I would say that I feel that two thousand years ago they were actually better it at it. They knew how to face I mean the innovation part and still keep not all of them, but we have, you know, sources that's from them you see that the rabbis were actually weren't afraid of revolutions and it's that's beautiful. And I feel that it's not that the j Judaism it is not evolving. It does. But I feel I think my Israeli experience is that But something about it is slowing down and it's a shame. speaker-0: So we're caught in a cross sec it feels like we're caught in a cross-section at this juncture. the even just the word charidi, which is the kind of common terminology in Israel which refers to the ultra-religious in this country is a terminology of trembling, of an anxiety. And we're caught in a cross-section in a post-shoah world, in a post-Holocaust world, where on one side there is this deep Seated anxiety about the possibility of change and innovation. And other side, there is an impassioned desire to drive forward, to drive the Jewish state, and to drive Judaism and the Jewish people into the modern world in an unapologetic unapologetic, free and liberating way. and in many ways I can see you as a religious person, I can see both as as crucial and important. But I also I want, and this is again part of the part of this this very project that we're talking about, the podcast, I want to have A liberated Judaism. A Judaism which can innovate and which can drive forward and which can take the best of the modern world and drive a stake through Jewish life to open it up, to to make it available to people in the ways that they wanna meet Jewish life, but then also to be a guardian of the tradition. speaker-1: So if I will ask you as a religious person, do you have like guidelines? I mean not even not consciously, but when you think about it, do you have guidelines? how do you actually balance them? what do you have things that you say on that I would never give up? This traditional thing I would never give up. or you say no, it's we have to flow with life and something will go away and What's your attitude towards this question? speaker-0: Yeah, it's a big question. Listen, I think part of it is trying to be in conversation with the world. That's a kind of always been a core of mine is try and hold relationship with all the different sectors of society. So like having this relationship with you as an example and and where the podcast came from, as somebody who identifies as Hiloni as secular. is important because at the very basis for my own religious and spiritual development I need to hear the other voice. I need to hear the voice, you know, I work in a multi faith chaplaincy at the moment in in London in in Canary Wharf. And I need to hear the voice also of people from other religious faith groups, from the Muslim community, from the Christian community, and hear some of what they're experiencing and and what they're thinking about and how they perceive us and how we perceive them. those are all important things. In terms of what the line is, listen, I think it's possible to it's difficult, but I think it's possible to live a from life, to keep Shabbat and keep Kashrut in the way that I see fit while still kind of being in the world. It's interesting, like I don't know, like I don't have str such a strict Kashrut. So like That's a source of tension in our family. My Kashrut is much more strict since I married into married my wife Natalie. But it's, you know, I'll still like sit down and have a cup of tea or coffee and maybe even a sandwich in a veggie place. And that's a source of tension. But I believe in like in some way or other breaking bread with people who are not from my tradition. and that's been in the Jewish tradition, that aspect of kashrut has been a real separator. of our worlds, that we shouldn't break bread, we shouldn't drink wine with people from outside of the tradition. That's been a source of profound separation between the religious communities and I don't know. And then in terms of like the Shabbat is very limiting if I'm transparent. Like the things that we get to do are somewhat limited, but you're weighing in the in the way that I keep Shabbat. So in the way that I keep Shabbat just for people listening for the first time or not, we don't get on a bus, we don't get in a car, we cook all of our food in advance, we do all sorts of crazy things. Have time switches for lights, all of which is bonkers, particularly person who grew up not doing most of those things. But the bit that you weigh up, and this is Part of what we're talking about, like lidrosh et Adonai like to kind of weigh up in your own personal way is the value of that Shabbat that you're protecting. so it's a segregated time for family. And it's a time where nothing else interrupts, and it's a time where often I feel really exhausted because you run a hundred miles an hour during the week, and then suddenly, you know, 302 or 502 or whatever it is, the Shabbat comes in and everything. disperses. There's no you know, there's no phones, there's no T V, there's no checking that last email, whatever it is, and the physical body kind of almost falls away because suddenly you're like, that was a really long and busy week and I don't know, something happens energetically. I suddenly often feel just exhausted, trashed by the week. But there is something there about I'm sorry, it's about tr protecting the tradition and I guess I feel like I'm getting to an unsatisfactory answer because the answer is it's a bit of a mishnah. Where do I draw like leniencies and and space for innovation and not following the very hard lines of Judaism and where do I not? And the answer is it's probably a bit messy, but There are parts of the tradition which I think are profoundly important and which do keep the tradition going. A Echad Ha'Am, I use this line often, a Echad Ha'Am famously says that more than the Jewish people have kept Shabbat, Shabbat the Shabbat has kept the Jewish people. And there's something there just about the aspect of the things that we do that keep the tradition going. speaker-1: Sure. But I mean, for me, this kind of talk is always being experienced as an apologetic. meaning for me, I don't keep Shabbat like you, but Shabbat is a very peaceful and liberating and familial time. the same. I mean I don't feel that I need this all kind of isurim prohibitions in order to keep Shabbat. But having said that, you are right. I mean there is something I have to admit, something beautiful and I love it. The mixture, the mixture between innovation and tradition is always more interesting than the innovation itself or tradition itself. I mean look at the the way that the Jewish law were was evolving I mean there are there are two ways. One is through the drasha, through seeking the deep meaning of the biblical text, and by that way innovating a new halacha, a new a new legal rule that is actually more adequate to our life. That's one way. And the other way is through legislation. Takanot and Gezerot I mean you legislate a new rule. I think the Drashot. The mixture between innovation and tradition is always more interesting. It's just there is something beautiful about it. And I feel the same in Jerusalem, the mixture between East and West is always Invigorating mind blowing it away. so I mean I'm for innovation but I don't I recognize the fact that there is something very attracting attractive in the mixture. speaker-0: Hmm. So you you you mentioned the rabbis of ancient year, let's say the rabbis of the Talmud of 2000 years ago were were more capable in the ways of innovating. And I think that is there is something to it. And we were looking at the Sugiah from Menachot about Moshe going up to Shamayim up up into the heavens and seeing God and God is tying crowns, tagim on top of the letters. And Moshe says, What are you doing? And God says, There's gonna be a guy that comes along in some generations' time called Rabbi Akiva, Akiva Ben Yosef, and he's gonna make halakot from each of these tagim, each of these crowns on each of these letters. And there's something wild about this Sugiah because it's this very poetic description of innovation. And in a time when innovation was necessary, Arabik was killed at the hands of the Romans, who ultimately destroyed the temple and who who caused great suffering and hardship in the land of Israel, and ultimately two thousand years of dispersion. And here is a story of innovation. and interestingly, God is doing this in eight rows of a yeshiva. He's sitting somehow in a the heavenly Yeshiva, and ultimately Moses goes to Rabbi Akiva's Beit Midrash, Rabbi Akiva's house of study, and sits on the back row and the Sugiah reports that Moshe did not understand Rabbi Akiva's Beit Midrash, Beautiful. Go on. speaker-1: I mean just think about it. I mean, let's talk about this the beautiful aspect of this legend. Moses the prophet comes to Rabbi Akiva's Beit Midrash, which is the second century AC. A C Yeah, it's in the second. Common era. Common era. Yeah. And and Moses is traveling time and he sits there and he's the prophet and he doesn't understand a word, meaning the innovations are great, the innovations are enormous. But at the same time at the same time, Rabbi Akiva is actually a what he does is all relating to what God did because what Rabbi Akiva he translates what god did with this these crowns meaning the innovations were already foreseen by god so it's beautiful but at the same time i have to admit when i think about this rabbi who actually thought about this legend, created it. Wow, what an effort. I mean I feel tired even to think, yeah. he puts a lot of effort in order to actually maintain these two together, saying Rabbi Akiva innovates, but at the same time the innovations are foreseen by God. God says it's okay. Moses doesn't understand it. And that's okay too. And and then the Agada goes on and he says, one of the disciples of Rabbi Akiva says, Where do you know this from, Rabbi? And he says, this is what Moses gave us. And then Moses hears his in his name and says, he knows what I gave. I mean, and then he feels more settled. But I mean, what an effort. I mean sometimes I feel that people who want to actually combine innovation and tradition together, sometimes it's a little bit tiresome. It's a little bit I mean, sometimes I want to tell them, Calm down. you can you can just be in the world in a way. speaker-0: In emotional spiritual acrobatics. speaker-1: Exactly, exactly. speaker-0: It's a great Sugiah and and listen, apart partly Moses Moshe represents the that deep anxiety which we're also living today. When Moshe is anxious because he doesn't understand and then reassured when he hears his name, you know, the Moshe Rabbein, the core teacher, is is kind of presented with Jewish innovation and Jewish suffering and you know in the continuation of the Sugiah all in the same moment and Somehow it's okay in the end. But it's a presentation of this mix of innovation and continuity. so we have to wrap up just in a minute. yeah, where where does this leave you like in terms of your own personal reflection on this aspect of innovation and tradition? Like what's your takeaway? speaker-1: I have a big gratitude to the non existent God that I live in Jerusalem. and I know in a month's time I will hear the shofar in the streets. It's just a for a secular it's still a very moving effect on me and I love it and I'm proud to be in this intersection. Hopefully, you know citing the foreign minister of Saudi, Saudi Arabia yesterday, hopefully Jerusalem will be a more cosmopolitan cosmopolitan place. But I still I'm worried. I mean, nationally I'm worried. I hopefully I mean I just wanna still keep the hope that we will find the balance between innovation and tradition nationally. 'Cause I feel we'll we are in a very as you said, in an intersection that we can make a bad turn and I hope that we will find the way. speaker-0: Listen, it's a great topic, for the podcast and great to talk to you about then this I just I feel like this is the place. Like I wanna be in Rabbi Akiva's Beit Madrash on the eighth row, trying to work out what the hell is going on, but also permitting the possibility that something new's gonna happen that's that supersedes me and something new is gonna happen which is perhaps not understood, but to give permission for that to happen because the world has to innovate and has to continue and we know that from 2000 years ago and we know that from now. And the sweet spot has to be, even as I present my own anxiety about my own religious life, about what I protect and what I keep, there has to be innovation, has to be an openness to the world outside in order to permit my tradition to be played with and toyed with and experimented with and alive. And for my kids also to make those decisions and not to be forced upon in terms of tradition and religious life. And that's tremendously difficult in these times of anxiety, but also like ultimately crucial outcome of a commercial like in an untold way that we find whatever that balance might be. I'm gonna wrap us up and say thank you, Nomi Studios for hosting us. thanks, Ev, for getting all the tech sorted today. Thank you, Sophia, for editing and producing this podcast. after the fact. Loads of things. Thank you, Steve. Thank you to Oi Va Voi for our musical intro and outro. Yair thank you for doing this. You've we're like rumbling towards the end of a first season, six months in. the approach of Ellul the month before Rosh Hashanah, the sounding of the Shafar. This has been a great Project so far, and we're wrapping up in really good style of just this first six months of producing this podcast. thank you. Please share our post on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook. support us on Patreon if you want to support us financially, and send this podcast to a friend to begin to welcome in what's gonna be a new year. And thank you so much for listening to Really Jewish with your Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph from Jerusalem. speaker-1: Thank you.