Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Pride... and Prejudice in the Holy Land: Rabbi Amichai Lau-Lavie
Transcript
- Orly Erez-Likhovski: back to the Pluralist Podcast from both sides of the ocean. I am Orly Erez-Likhovski, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center. Josh Weinberg: I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg and I serve as the Vice President for Israel and Reform Zionism for the URJ and as the head of ARZA Orly Erez-Likhovski: And today we're going to talk about LGBTQ plus life in Israel and North America about how so much has changed and so much remains unresolved ⁓ and the struggle for LGBTQ plus equality connects to religion, democracy and the future of Israeli society. Pride Month has just opened in Israel a couple of days ago and last week's Jerusalem Pride Parade gave us powerful starting point for this conversation. Thousands of people marching through Jerusalem, including religious Orthodox Jews, rabbis, families, allies, and a lot of people wearing kippot insisting that there is room for everyone in our Judaism, in Israel's capital, Israel's public square. It was a really, really ⁓ heartwarming and inspiring event me. But before turn to that, ⁓ we have acknowledge the unbelievable moment we're recording in just yesterday. on monday Iran fired rockets at israel ⁓ once again we went to the shelters just not believing that we are back to this really unbelievable and crazy reality it seems that for now is not going continue it was just a one-time thing but the uncertainty is terrible and of course there's so many things happening in the north of israel and in the west bank Josh Weinberg: First of all, it was wonderful first seeing all of the pictures of you and our entire reform movement and everybody coming out together, all wearing the t shirts, you know, v' ahavta lre'acha kamocha you should love your neighbor as yourself with the colors of the rainbow across. And then it feels like here we are again. Here we go. ⁓ just ⁓ what does it feel like on the ground? I mean, did you were you embracing for a much longer conflict or what were you well, are you feeling? Orly Erez-Likhovski: I think that the feeling was, first of all, people say we can't believe we're in this terrible situation again. And we were afraid, obviously, that it's going to be again a few weeks. And I think that just understanding that our fate is in the hands of, I'm sorry, but just two lunatics, and I'm not talking about Iran, is really hard to grasp. Thank God it stopped after one day. it could know, just be sparked again every day. So I think the uncertainty definitely remains. It's very hard to sort of, you know, plan anything in such uncertain circumstances. How did you sort of experience it from North America? Josh Weinberg: Yeah, absolutely. All of us braced of course, you know, our first concern is for the safety and security of everyone there and those who don't have ⁓ Mamadim, you know, or safe rooms to go to, and that's ⁓ scary. And then, you know, quickly to think about what are the ramifications, our flights gonna be canceled, are we gonna have to you know, I thought about our summer programs that ⁓ are gonna have to shift and Orly Erez-Likhovski: And daughter is supposed to come to Israel this summer. Josh Weinberg: Exciting. Yes, exactly. Own blood. And then, you know, I found this surreal moment of thinking to myself when when President Trump said to Prime Minister Netanyahu, you know, hey, I ⁓ call the shots here after he last week had a very colorful conversation with Netanyahu. ⁓ And was like, is is Trump the responsible adult here? Like what this is this is crazy, this is unbelievable. ⁓ and so let's just say let's glad that you know I'm glad that ⁓ we're back somewhat to, you know, our our typical abnormality. nothing is, you know, quite normal, but ⁓ Yeah. Orly Erez-Likhovski: The normal reality and ⁓ think that really brings us sort directly into today's conversation because ⁓ it's clear that in moments of emergency and war ⁓ and questions of equality ⁓ and human dignity human rights are usually pushed aside. As if they can wait until after the war after the crisis and you know we usually don't get there but obviously those questions can't wait ⁓ and obviously the of society treats vulnerable communities. especially in moments of emergency, tells us something essential about the society, about who belongs, who is protected and who is not. this is why this conversation about LGBTQ plus life in Israel feels so urgent right now. ⁓ today we are honored to be joined by Rabbi Anichai Lau-Lavi. Anichai was ⁓ at the heart of Orthodox Jewish life in Israel and became a queer Jewish leader, builder, artist and Rabbi in North America. ⁓ through his life and work, we want to ask. Can Judaism do more than correct the harms it has caused LGBTQ plus people? Can it become a home where LGBTQ plus people, Jews, are not only accepted but actually are able to thrive? And what does this mean in Israel today? Josh Weinberg: Yeah, absolutely. Well, welcome Amichai. Great to have you. Amichai Lau-Lavie: Hello friends. Hi Orly Hi Josh. Lovely to see you both in Israel and in New York. I am currently in New York for about a month. ⁓ having spent the last four months in Jerusalem and going over back there again in August. So I feel the split and the here there, not just in my jet lag, but also in the way my heart tugs both ways. And I'm very grateful to be invited to be in this conversation with you both. This is a huge topic in the middle of a very difficult and heartbreaking time. Josh Weinberg: Amichai of course, you're someone who I've known for for many, many years and consider both a friend and a teacher and a colleague. And just want to give our listeners a sense of who you are in your own biography, that ⁓ Amichai, you are an Israeli-born social activist, storyteller, writer, teacher, spiritual entrepreneur, ⁓ rabbi. you're the co-founding spiritual leader of Lab Schule in New York City, the creator of StorahTelling and a leader, of course, now as the co-chair for Rabbis for Human Rights in Israel. Amichai grew up in one of Israel's most prominent rabbinic families, ⁓ and diplomatic families, may I add, right? you moved to New York in 1997. in 2016, ⁓ after receiving rabbinic ordination from the Jewish Theological Seminary, you became the 39th generation of rabbis in your family and the first to be openly queer. ⁓ the remarkable journey of Amichai La Levi is at the center of Sabbath Queen, Sandy Dubis Dubowski's award-winning documentary filmed over 21 years, which follows Amichai through Orthodox Inheritance, Drag Performance, Queer Fatherhood, Rabbinic Ordination, the creation of new Jewish spiritual communities. And of course, ⁓ your journey taking you back and forth from Israel to New York, as you just ⁓ explained to us. For this conversation about LGBTQ life in Israel, Judaism, family, belonging, and democracy, Amichai brings a deeply personal and deeply Jewish lens. Your story is not only about leaving tradition or challenging tradition, it's really about rebuilding Jewish life into something more honest, more courageous, and more alive. So we're really excited to have this, ⁓ to have this conversation with you. and Orly, let's ⁓ why don't you begin? Take touch Orly Erez-Likhovski: ⁓ It's really great ⁓ to have you here. I want to begin with... What we mentioned at the beginning which is last week's Jerusalem pride parade and ask you you grew up in in an Israel in deeply religious world ⁓ and have now spent many years building a vibrant and unique Jewish life in North America. And I want to ask you when you see this thousands of people marching through the streets of Jerusalem and it was you know right next to the Supreme Court in the Knesset ⁓ what that image mean to you how do you feel when you see that. What does it reveal about LGBTQ plus life and rights in Israel today? And could you have imagined that seeing those events and so many people marching when you grew up or before you left Israel to the States? speaker-3: Yeah. Amichai Lau-Lavie: Thank you. no, of course not. I don't think any of us could have imagined. and yet some of us obviously did, because here we are. So it's an honor to sit on the shoulders of those who came before us, ⁓ all activists and all the dreamers and the visionaries. ⁓ and I think it's important to mention that the the fight for human rights, the fight for queer ⁓ dignity and and democracy for all of us is not isolated from the l from the entire arc that we are part of the fight in the struggle for human rights and dignity. And I feel that the LGBT struggle, here we are in Pride Month, is sitting on the shoulders ⁓ the feminists. who's sitting on the shoulders of the abolitionists, sitting on the shoulders of all the people who are seeing the divine in other people's faces refuse to give up on on the slogan, sometimes the cliche, that none of us are free until we're all free. Attributed to way too many people. So I feel first of all this part of this conversation and for sure with you two, you know, Orly we last ⁓ hung out in Jerusalem just a few weeks ago when we marched in the interfaith march for justice and and human rights in Jerusalem. And Josh, the many, many things we've done together, marched, worked, protested, and prayed together. So we know that we're talking about a bigger context here. And to know that in 2026 People can march in Jerusalem with heavy police security, unfortunately, and yet, yes, with heavy police security, with no incidents other than a few very minor attacks, verbal attacks, and for to see the the the variety expression on the spectrum of the rainbow, including Jewish observance. one of the most cited memes was Mincha at the march. Like all these orthodox and I guess conservative queer Jews stopping at on on the side to to pray, right? ⁓ speaker-3: Wow. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Which you might add what may be slightly different at the Pride Parade in Tel Aviv, right? Should we? ⁓ Amichai Lau-Lavie: No, a hundred percent. The Jerusalem Pride is super important because of that. I wasn't there this year. I've been in many of them. And I will just say I was so moved that ⁓ eleven years ago, after Shira Banki (z”l) was tragically stabbed to death during Jerusalem Pride by people associated with some people who are currently in government. from the far right extremist supremacist voices in Judaism and in Israeli society, after Shira's brutal killing, following year was really dedicated to stepping her memory and saying no to any kind of hatred and violence. And I composed a prayer. A Tfilat Ha Derech a prayer for the safe journey that was that I read out loud at that journey. Orly Erez-Likhovski: And we read also this year. Amichai Lau-Lavie: Exactly. And people keep reading it and I wasn't there, but people send me the videos. Yeah. And it feels so it's so meaningful on a very personal level. But also knowing that yes, people are praying at this journey. It is a way to be religiously active in the name of love and to expand the sense of of we. And I know that people were marching this year and in previous years who would not have marched before. The religious parents of people who came out, the rabbis, obviously political leaders. We have a long way to go human freedom and for queer pride in its full expression. And step by step, this march is one of the ways we are forging a new reality. Orly Erez-Likhovski: Yeah you know I don't know if you can say that Yishai Schlissel who was the murderer of Shira Banki (z"l) and 10 years before actually stabbed people marched ⁓ at the pride parade ⁓ on I don't know it was actually you his association to ⁓ people who are now in government was published I don't know it but we should mention that the incitement against the LGBTQ community and that you know the fact that we have the most homophobic government that we have ever had. Just made all the event all the more important right the fact that it actually now is obvious Despite everything that is happening in the halls of government that there is a pride parade in Jerusalem and nobody questions It anymore is amazing and by the way, I just saw that recent poll showed that 74 % of Israelis support LGBTQ Equality and that's like a huge number in today's Israel and I think we have to remember that you mentioned the feminist You know struggle and i think when we're talking about both women's rights and lgbtq plus rights we see a huge ⁓ way that we've we've moved we've progressed despite so many terrible things because i think a lot of people got to know you know queer people around them when you know those people it's very hard for you to treat them as the other or to just to have a lot of prejudice against them so we have a lot still to go and there is a lot of discrimination and violence. direct targeted members of the community but i think we've come a very long way and Rabbi Noa Sattath who is now the director general of of ACRI of The Association for Civil Rights in Israel and was and the director of IRAC actually give a speech next to the Knesset and she said i remember the march twenty years ago when we were not allowed to march in Jerusalem because it was too dangerous and we were supposed to know we held on just you know and invented a closed stadium and look how far we've come And think especially now when we need so much consolation and some kind of hope, I think we have to remember this good side as well. Amichai Lau-Lavie: Yeah, for sure. You know, just as a sidebar, ironically, sadly, tragically, the numbers in Israel might be going up on the recognition of of you know pride ⁓ and and ⁓ even same sex marriage, according to some polls, ⁓ in the US they're going down, according to recent polls. Because of the political climate and the conservatism, et cetera. So I think it's rem it's important to remember with humility that the pendulum does what pendulums do, and we're in the middle of a paradigm shift socially, politically, for so many different reasons. This is an absolute moment to celebrate ⁓ to understand again the ecosystem of human rights within which we're operating. And I'm sure we'll get to it, but we need to also be careful where we celebrate the rights of one community while completely looking away from the rights of others. And the both and, I feel, is so much the work we're all doing. to s to really be careful about that. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, no, I I think that's a a critically important point. you know, when we see one society versus another and comparing and contrast, especially, you know, we both purport ourselves to be open modern Western societies that ⁓ recognize the rights and dignity of all people. And and yet, ⁓ but Amichai I'm wondering, can you take us just a step back a little bit? And I wanna just hear about you for a second and Just just tell us a little bit about your own upbringing, what was Jewish life like for you? What did it mean to come from such you know, like a prominent rabbinic, ⁓ would add the word orthodox, you know, family. and what you you know, what were some of the life lessons that that that you learned, you know, growing up? ⁓ and then we'll start to talk about, you know, where where your own path took you. Orly Erez-Likhovski: Yeah just before you answer i want to share a personal note that actually connects us i don't think you know that your family came originally from the same town in poland that my grandparents came which is Piotrków Trybunalski and that's know something that's connected which is very moving for me. speaker-3: Holy Amichai Lau-Lavie: It's not a small town. Piotrków Trybunalski Yes. A little Lansman Pride. Hello. It's a big city. It was the city of the tribunal of Poland. Right, right. Okay, we gotta talk about that. That's good. That's that's Mishpucha stuff. ⁓ so I wanna say that ⁓ I'm very proud of my family, my immediate family, my late father Naftali, whose whose father Moshe Haim Lau indeed the last. Orly Erez-Likhovski: It was a big city, Amichai Lau-Lavie: Chef Rabay of Piotrikov, who tragically perished in Treblinka with his son and many of the community. my my grandmother, his wife, Chaya, was from Krakow from a very illustrious Hasidic family, and then my father who Buchenwald and built Israel and made sure that his younger brother survived, who later would become the Chief Rabbi of Israel Rabbi Israel Meir Lau so that's sort of my father's side and then my mother's side is a very German British Orthodox family. So I grew up with this legacy of of survival, this mix of Eastern and Western European Jewry that wouldn't have been possible before World War Two and afterwards. My mother made aliyah from England in nineteen fifty one as a young Zionist social worker wanting to help build the new country. and I'm the youngest of four and we grew I gr right on the border between Ramat Gan and Bnei Brak which is both geographically and ideologically just between the very ultra Orthodox and the more modern secular and modern Orthodox. So I really think I grew up on this hyphen in many ways. And that was the product of our culture, religious Zionist, very modern. I I ⁓ I can trace in my own life, I'm now 57, how we inched towards the center and towards the center right. ⁓ I was actually in Sebastia, the first settlement in 1977, I believe, as a little kid. for what for the first wedding that happened there. That anyway, that's a long story. I'm like, wow, okay. but ⁓ I would say just to to to make this quick, by the time I'm thirteen years old, we're in New York City. My father became the Consul General of Israel in New York and so we uprooted Uptown to Manhattan to the Upper East Side. And my Bar Mitzvah was at a very orthodox synagogue on the Upper East Side. I'm standing on the Bima, I'm chanting my entire lengthy Torah portion, Achrei Mot - Kedoshim and I'm chanting verse about abomination that two men cannot have sex. It will be an execution. And I remember th reading it and thinking Bleep What? Now How am I gonna deal with this? At thirteen, I sort of had an inkling of where this was going. ⁓ and it will take me many, many years to go back to that moment and reclaim that moment and give that thirteen year old terrified boy a and say, Yehieh B Seder it's gonna be okay, you're gonna figure it out. It took me many years to come out to my family, to get the immediate embrace, not with ease and not immediately of my parents, of my siblings. And frankly, my larger, orthodox, and very right-wing family has not really embraced me. So there's there there's blessings and there is silence simultaneously. And ⁓ and I'm going to fast forward many, many years actually. You talked about the Jerusalem pride. I think I don't remember if it was before or after Shira Probably after. My brother Benny Lau who many of you know Rabbi Benny Lau is a very prominent modern Orthodox rabbi and a an ally to the queer community and someone fighting for human rights and justice. My brother Rabbi Benny Lau is a very prominent modern Orthodox rabbi and a an ally to the queer community and someone fighting for human rights and justice. Josh Weinberg: Would you say he's on the more on the more liberal end of orthodoxy in terms of Amichai Lau-Lavie: I would say absolutely he's he's yeah, he's he's a very brave thinker inside that complicated world. And he came out by saying, Ha Aron Zeh Mavet the closet is death. That was in the immediate aftermath of Shira's killing and the growing homophobia and violence. And he became an ally and a voice in the Orthodox world for families struggling with religion, law and and gay pride. he's a very brave thinker inside that complicated world. And he came out by saying, Ha Aron Zeh Mavet the closet is death. That was in the immediate aftermath of Shira's killing and the growing homophobia and violence. And he became an ally and a voice in the Orthodox world for families struggling with religion, law and and gay pride. And I remember there's a photo of me at the pride in Jerusalem walking with a poster that has his face on it that says Ha Aron Zeh Mavet Closet is death. is there any better way to depict Shomer Achi I am my brother's keeper. And I remember there's a photo of me at the pride in Jerusalem walking with a poster that has his face on it that says Ha Aron Zeh Mavet Closet is death. Wow. Wow. And I thought, you know, is there better way to depict Shomer Achi Anochi I am my brother's keeper. Orly Erez-Likhovski: Wow, it's amazing. Amichai Lau-Lavie: So I literally so many, many years later, I think my family of origin is a role model. And Sabbath Queen, the film that you mentioned, Josh, that just celebrated two years since its premiere and it's touring all over the world. It just filmed this Sunday at Westchester Reform Temple as part of their pride Shabbat. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, Tartei MaShma yeah. ⁓ Amichai Lau-Lavie: ⁓ this little pin that I'm wearing, if you can see, super gay Jew. got from WRT. the is is about many things, but it does talk about my mother, my late father, my brother as role models of people who are not willing to give up on their loved ones and also maintain Jewish tradition in ways and figuring out the both end. So I'll say that's that's where I come from. And I forged my own path and did a lot of crazy things and Josh Weinberg: Well let's let's talk about that. Exactly. Orly Erez-Likhovski: But before that Josh I actually have two questions for you. ⁓ First of all, did you have an option not to become a rabbi in a family of rabbis? ⁓ the second is since you were going back and forth from ⁓ Israel to the US and back even up, where did you feel like it was sort of more welcoming for you ⁓ as queer person? Amichai Lau-Lavie: So interesting. So look, I really feel like I belong to a generation saw and created the shift in many ways. just out of the AIDS crisis, just coming into more recognition in the world ⁓ of sex, not as a complete taboo and Shonda. and beginning to be part of the shift in ⁓ conceptual and so I feel lucky this way and and privileged and there's a responsibility that comes with this privilege, not just to keep working for LGBTQ plus rights, but again for more human rights. and I left in because as somebody who grew up Orthodox and was no longer interested in orthodoxy. the understanding of where Jewish law had a dead end when it came to accepting me as a gay man opened the door for me to understand that there were many options to orthodoxy, as far as women's rights and as far as creativity around how we handle others and as far as just the flexibility of Jewish law and its evolution. And so I was curious about the rabbinate. ⁓ I chose to do Jewish education through culture and storytelling. Josh and I met a billion years ago while we were both in informal Jewish education. that led me to the States in 1997 work at a congregation at Bene Jeshuran under the wonderful Rabbi Roly Matalon who invited me to sort of to teach there and to create Jewish culture and to open my eyes to the many ways of being Jewish in the world, including queer, that was not as expressive in Israel in those years as it would become shortly after. So I ⁓ am grateful for what I experienced here the and the and the the ⁓ many forms of creative expressions, including queer expressions, from attending CBST and being at a you know an all-out queer synagogue and meeting its leaders ⁓ seeing all the wonderful and weird ways in which people combined identities. And then because I kept going back to Israel and I'm still so involved there and now much more so ⁓ I was able to both be part of creating and witnessing the ways in which Israelis are taking Judaism and also queer Judaism to a unique other place. with the language, with a nuance, with a no nonsense approach, and with a chutzpah that that really opens up new doors to the challenges we have in Israel and to the opportunities. It's a Both And situation. There's a lot of beautiful overlap. Obviously the political situation is creating some challenges for how we embrace both being queer and Jewish, Israeli and on the LGBT map. And we we maybe we'll talk about that. we can talk a lot about pride and there's we gotta talk about prejudice. There's a lot of joy and we're in a moment of pain. Orly Erez-Likhovski: There we have we have our title. The Pride and Prejudice is the Holy Land. Josh Weinberg: I was thinking about that. Yeah, absolutely. Amichai Lau-Lavie: Just as long as you give Jane Austen some credit. Orly Erez-Likhovski: course. Josh Weinberg: Yes. And just so two things. So first say a word about what that means to be this kind of inclusive Judaism and how might have impacted back to Israel, right? We we usually see Israel sort of the traditional center of Ahad Ha'am as you know the spiritual center that that that that you know breaks out, you know, that sends out to the far flung diaspora communities. But I want to think about it as the reverse like how has what you've created, both you with Storah Telling first and then with with Lab Shul and you know, how has that impacted Israel at all and you know, or Israelis or the liberal, you know, progressive Jewish movements in Israel? And then also, you know, where are you still feeling some of that prejudice? Two two separate questions we can ⁓ Amichai Lau-Lavie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So first of all, I think we all know and the amazing work that IRAC and all you guys are doing and the reform movement is doing, the the the liberal movements are doing in Israel, is move the needle what does a look like when it is not tethered to the traumas of the past, when it isn't ⁓ located one box. Which is for the most part the orthodox box, but is on a much more polydox, flexidox spectrum of expression. Now, because for political reasons, Israel went with separation of religion and state, and the official religion per the nineteen forties, fifties, sixties is orthodoxy, because of the rabbinate, because of the legislation, etc. So many Israelis Who are not Orthodox or grew up Orthodox and left Orthodoxy are stuck without really seeing validity of the other options. And the reform movement, the conservative movement, the Reconstructionist movement, Jewish renewal ⁓ came to Israel with a heavy American accent. So many Israelis, Reformim becomes a slur for not authentic Judaism. That is awful. And destructive and wrong, and is slowly shifting as more and more Israelis are embracing the fact, especially now, I would say in the aftermath of October seventh, in the moral crisis that we're living through, people are looking for spiritual responses for how to be Jewish, Israeli, ethical, moral, helpful, healing, connect to something bigger than a national identity. So there is a seeking for religiosity. Josh Weinberg: it's fascinating because you know I was talking about this exact question with ⁓ with you know many of our teachers, Rabbi Michael Marmer, and you know he reminded me that all of Judaism in Israel is imported. You know, whether it comes with an Ashkenazi accent, with the Iraqi, Yemenite, Moroccan accent, it i it is all imported you know. So why is one less authentic than the other? you know, sort of the the Taymani, you know, grandfather with Peyote and beard is very, very authentic, whereas, you know, our rabbi Levi Wyman Kelman with his American accent is seen somehow less. I I I know why that ⁓ Orly Erez-Likhovski: I think it's like the sketch from Lula from the mythological what saying I I definitely backed by by survey results that more and more Israelis ⁓ are actually feeling toward Reform Judaism And I think especially under this government. They're looking for something else so Judaism that they can to and that is aligned with our liberal values because they want to push away what the government is presenting as you know, the Judaism of hatred and exclusion and intolerance Amichai Lau-Lavie: So so we're seeing something changing here in the in the mindset of what people see and where does humanity see like a humanitarian seeing of others. And I will say it begins with seeing that gay people have rights to be part of society. And ideally it goes all the way to recognizing the rights of Palestinians to have their own freedom and right to dignity and to just not to dehumanize each other. And I wanna say sort of something about that. I'm in many, many conversations with Israelis, with Palestinians, with Jews across the spectrum, in the peacemaking world and in the attempt to create dialogue when we're so divided right now and there's so much polarization within the Jewish community in the United States, with Israel, etc. Europe, etcetera. my card is my identity. There's a way to say to people on the orthodox, ultra-orthodox, extreme Muslim, anti-whatever, saying, Look, here I am. I was created this way. I didn't choose to be created this way. I chose not to hide. I chose not to live a life of loneliness inside the closet. Like many others, I belong to a paradigm of people who are claiming our humanity and our rights without compromising or challenging yours. And there is a trend towards that. Thank goodness we're at this moment. That is allowing me to rethink Judaism, to rethink Jewish law, to understand that we keep evolving, that it's on us to keep expanding our empathy towards others, to understand our own blind spots, our own historical limitations, and to keep growing. where women have rights, where queer people have rights, where people have rights. That's all relatively new in our human evolution. Just like I am fighting as an openly gay man, an openly gay rabbi for my place at the table, with no shame and with no blame, it is our responsibility to keep doing so for other people. Let's see the humanity of other people and let's let our biases, our fear-driven hatred take a breath. Orly Erez-Likhovski: your queer identity actually opens up people or gets people to sort of embrace you more. I think it goes back to what we said about the shifting attitudes toward queer people, right? So the progress we've made, I think it's really fascinating. Amichai Lau-Lavie: and it's a double edged sword, but I will say like I had this conversation last week with a group of Israelis who are visiting New York and met with me. They're all from Otef Azah. They've all been through October seventh. They're in civic roles ⁓ and they're there to meet American Jewry And some of them were very right wing, Bibi and right words. And we're furious that I'm I to a group of rabbis who has met with Zohran Mamdani Josh Weinberg: Rolls. Amichai Lau-Lavie: And Zohran Mamdani was a visitor at my synagogue on Yom Kippur per his request. I'm a bridge builder and I'm a dialogue creator. And I meet people in the messy middle. Not all of them, and not always, but as often as possible. And I got such from a few of those people in the group. How dare you talk to an anti Semite who's an anti Zionist? And I said, Look, I'm sitting with Orthodox people. And with Haredi people and with Palestinian people, to try and build dialogue. And I open with my with my monologue, with my story. Can you see my humanity? I'm trying to see yours. Let's just start there before we demonize people. And not always, but in this case, this ⁓ rageful guy kind of chilled out a little bit. ⁓ So in some weird ways, not all, I think we need to take the ways we are standing up for human rights, and in this case gay rights, and push it forward towards human rights. The side of that, I'm gonna drop another P word here, is pink washing. Where when Amir You know, when Amir Ohana the speaker of the Knesset, with whom I do not agree. Josh Weinberg: I know. Amichai Lau-Lavie: politically on many many issues the stance he has taken to limit Israeli democracy and free expression and peacemaking. And I'm not gonna tr ⁓ I don't want to implicate you in my political or your political position. Let me just say I think it's the literature of Amir Ohana and this particular government. Amir Ohana walked down Fifth Avenue Orly Erez-Likhovski: Everything is true. Amichai Lau-Lavie: Two weeks ago in the Salute to Israel parade with a delegation of Israeli ministers, including Smotrich, and I read your post about it, Josh, and that wasn't planned ahead of time. And so a lot of Jewish leaders in the US were implicated by walking down with Smotrich down the line. Now, on the other hand, there is a Amir Ohana See, Israel is embracing its first openly gay ⁓ member, you know, ⁓ head of the Knesset. So it's a both and situation. Yes, there is an openly gay ⁓ leader in the Knesset. And the day Ohana was sworn in, when this government was sworn in, I was protesting in front of the Knesset because it was the government that brought in Ben Gvir And we already knew that's not gonna be good because a racist Kahanist in the Israeli government, thanks to Bibi, is not gonna be good news. We didn't know how bad. I was protesting that government. with a lot of queer flags and LGBT signage outside the Knesset. And an hour later, I'm hearing Ohana's speech where he's thanking his partner and is blessing Shehehiyanu And I'm sobbing 'cause here's a gay man ⁓ the Knesset thanking his husband with the brachah. And this is the man I just protested protested. Orly Erez-Likhovski: Yeah. And by the way, he of course, completely ignored the fact that all his rights and the rights of his partner are the direct result of Supreme Court decisions that he's trying to weaken and dismantle and destroy. And by the way, we just had one of our latest victories is really granting equal adoption rights to gay couples. And this was because of a Supreme Court decision that extended our petition and they completely ignored that. Amichai Lau-Lavie: So so A, it's complicated, and all I'm saying is there's a both and situation here where being very binary and very polarization and he's bad, period, and I'm righteous, period. No. If Rainbow teaches us anything is that the colors blend into each other and life is not black and white, and meeting in the messy middle for gay rights, for human rights, for Palestinian rights, for women's rights, for all rights, is messy. It's a messy human struggle and it takes stamina and patience and compassion and our eyes on the prize. And the prize is the democracy we wanna live in, both in the US and in Israel. And right now it's under attack, which is why we can't give up. Josh Weinberg: And and can I ask about the flip side of this all in that oftentimes we have seen, ⁓ especially in the last couple of years, the LGBTQ plus community and in many progressive circles, it is very hard to be Israeli or a Zionist. how how has October 7th impacted your life ⁓ and work? and ⁓ How has it been for you showing up in those spaces? I mean, your name is Amichai Lau-Lavie Anyone who Googles you knows your story and like, you know, f figures out where you come from. And how have you navigated that? I mean, we've had some really difficult conversations about that over the past few years. And let me just add one more thing is that I think it was October 10th, I want to say, where you and I held space ⁓ for. ⁓ a a very large group of Israelis in Brooklyn coming to emote ⁓ to seek solace ⁓ to you know be guided and seek actually ⁓ from a psychologist or a social worker but but from rabbis to help them ⁓ really this ⁓ just traumatic experience. ⁓ how how how is all that playing in for you with the events of the past couple of years? Amichai Lau-Lavie: Yeah. Thank you, Josh. That's a hard question and it's a sad story. So the fact of the matter is, like others in the Jewish world, in the Jewish queer world, retreated. And by retreated I don't mean step back from my affiliations, but found safer spaces and more ⁓ and and contained to keep doing the work. And while I am an advocate for nuance and for dialogue and for bridge building, there are times in which to say, I want to be around the table with the people whom I don't have to constantly explain myself. Right? I want some familiarity. And a lot of us, not just in the queer world, are seeking those spaces. The surge is about finding a way to be with my people, but not say my people are the only people, right? There's something to say family first, but not family only. And so I'm seeing that in many ways. I'll give you just a couple of examples. ⁓ I wrote an op ed for the New York Times two years ago for Pride saying why I won't march in gay pride this year, not on Fifth Avenue with the main and nor with the alternative, which I helped create during the early Trump years, which became completely left ⁓ Josh Weinberg: In New York, New York Right. In New York. Amichai Lau-Lavie: there'd probably be way more kafias alongside rainbow flags and wearing even this pin with the Star of David and the rainbow colors would be frowned upon if not attacked. Josh Weinberg: Dangerous. Amichai Lau-Lavie: But it's very likely because it's happened, right? This the lines are very split. The queer world is very, very left and very pro-Palestinian and very anti-Zionist. The nuance of what does it mean to be against this government and against the kind of religious Zionism that is fascist and racist, but not against the idea that Zionism needs to reimagine itself as a place that takes care of all humans between the river and the sea, where Israelis and Palestinians have right. rights and the determination requirement to live as free people. We have a lot of we have a lot of work to do. People don't get that. They see the slogans, they see what they see on the screens. It's yay, nay, pro, anti, and it's hostile. So I've stepped away and that that op ed that I wrote was about on pride, maybe being in the streets is not the best thing for everybody right now. Host a Shabbat dinner. Have a picnic, have other ways of being with like minded people to keep pushing for pride and pushing for acceptance and for our rights, and maybe not all of us together under the same banner. It was very much appreciated by some. attacked by others, but I know this coming Pride, New York, I I won't be here actually. I made a choice not to be here. I'm gonna be in Mexico City screening Sabbath Queen, hosting a Friday night event for the LGBTQ community, the Jewish LGBT community in Mexico. And on Saturday they're having their march and they told me how worried they are about marching. Because Mexico City is also very, very pro-Palestinian. And while many there are in the peace camp, as I am, it doesn't feel safe. So we're creating an alternative Shabbat experience for those who want. And then some will march and some won't. So I think there's creativity here. I'll share one more really painful moment that I mentioned in that op-ed. ⁓ shortly after the event that you're just talking about, Josh, I think it was November or December or already after the beginning of the incursion into Gaza, et cetera, and the terrible losses began to to to be you know, to to break so many of us. I was at a I passed by Union Square a protest to end the war and to ⁓ like as we've been there every every week to bring back the hostages and to stop the war and to fight for ceasefire and human rights. This was a little different. It was very pro-Palestine and I don't know if pro-Hamas, but definitely not pro-Israel in any way. And there's a bunch of protesters with rainbow flags and kafias who started shouting, kill the Jews, kill the Jews. Square, New York City. This is not about Israel. This was anti-Semitism for sure. And some people tried to stop them and they weren't. It became an ugly brawl and I was I walked I was like, I'm out of here. I don't feel safe. I don't want to be seen by anyone's camera in the proximity of this protest. I'm heartbroken. I knew some of those people with the rainbow flags around them. They were from my the wider queer community. So that was and is a warning sign. That we're living in a moment of great divisions where we need to figure out how we still find common ground and work with those who are willing to look beyond their either or to find some both. And it's not everybody and it's not everywhere and it's not all the time. It's definitely not in the main streets. It's more in the back rooms, not out of shame, but out of the wisdom, you know, blessing. The Talmud says, ein bracha ela samui me ha ayin Sometimes a blessing happens underground and that's where the flowers are flourishing from. So there's a lot of work right now to build bridges, to fix, to repair relationships, to plan ahead. and I will say that's also the true ⁓ it's also what's happening in Israel, where the queer community is trying to figure out how to get beyond right and left. There are a lot of people who turn to the right, but people are trying to figure out how to be open for everybody. There are some movements that I'm part of where Palestinian Israelis and in the West Bank who are openly gay or trying to be openly gay are forging relationships with Israeli. In the LGBTQ community so that there's a safety and there's a togetherness there. That's not easy, but that's happening. So it's that taking the queer struggles and triumphs to the next level is what I think is going to make sure that we don't squander this opportunity of collective liberation, but push it forward. Orly Erez-Likhovski: Yeah, and we should mention, by the way, mentioning the Palestinian queer community in Israel that, while many people in Israel within the queer community have made amazing progress, including Orthodox Jews, not ultra-Orthodox, but Orthodox Jews. I think when we talk about Palestinian members of the LGBTQ community, it's very much, very, very much problematic. And that's something we should definitely keep on working. But I think we sort of skipped Part that i want to talk about which is tell us a little bit about you know some of your project in new york city and how you really are embracing Judaism into a very very original creative way whether it's in a lab shul or storah telling maybe just give us you know couple of minutes about that i think it's super interesting to hear some of your. ⁓ Amichai Lau-Lavie: Pleasure. Yeah, because really we're on the same we're in the same spectrum of creative Jewish life. briefly I'll say when I came to New York ⁓ in the late 90s I created a theater company called Storytelling, which is about story telling and revives the ancient tradition where every time we read the Torah aloud, we don't just chant the Hebrew, we add the vernacular adaptation, translation, interpretation that honors the old narrative we inherited and talks Back to the text. So translation becomes a vehicle for updating the version. sometimes we take Torah texts that are toxic ⁓ trauma-inducing and ⁓ from misogyny to homophobia to racism, etc. That's part of ⁓ what we inherited and include skeletons in our holy ark. And yet rather than hide it, we tell it and we talk back to it and we invite the community to engage in how we reimagine our narratives. So Storah Telling began as a theater company Josh Weinberg wasn't a rabbi yet and he was trained. Rabbi Oded Mazor in Hol HaNeshama in Yerushalayim was trained. Rabbi like it's gonna have a renaissance again in Israel soon. the Storah Telling theater company after a decade morphed into the lab shul community. We'd figured out we're not just a theater company that does ritual, we're a congregation that does theater. So Labschul is now celebrating its B mitzvah from our incorporation. It's a thriving pop-up community in New York City. Our tagline is God optional, 'cause so many people are allergic to the old God and through religiosity. So we're inviting them into spirituality on their own terms. we're everybody friendly, Jewish, Jew-ish, Jew adjacent Part of my work has been in coming up with new ways of officiating intermarriage unions between people who were born Jewish and people who were not on the spectrum of Jewish identity. so that is a big deal ⁓ and a big part of our community. ⁓ art is driven, everything from the music to the artistry to the conceptual and spatial design is created by artists. And I will say also again in the theme of what we're talking about in the last few years, between Zionists and anti-Zionists, between different ways of being Jewish in the world, we've maintained a space where people come to have courageous conversations and to not cancel each other out. And as much as we can to offer spaces for listening. So the creativity of taking age old Judaism and making it relevant for today is thriving here. And one of the things I'm very interested in is doing more of that back home in Israel, where as we said, there is much going on already with creative religious expression. ⁓ And I think some of the projects from lab schul and storytelling will do really well in Israeli soil. I'll mention just one. Our flagship project at the moment is called Becoming. And it's about reimagining rites of passage, coming of age at every life stage. So we completely reimagined the teen B mitzvah for these young people to become storytellers. And whether they chant or not, as I did in my ball mitzvah painfully, they're invited to be storytellers. And become these storytellers. And then we've started doing this with our parents and grandparents. And so now we have projects for 40s, 50s. How do I take midlife and take a project which is not just about being a bar, but mitzvah, but becoming a human being at another phase of life, inspired by Jewish storytelling and by my own tradition. And we're doing it for people who are 65 plus. Basically, how do I not just become an older person? How do I become an elder? using the same storytelling ⁓ methodology. So these rites of passage is something we're focusing on here in New York and online. And we're beginning to do it in Israel as well. There is no such thing. And Orly I want to hear more from you about it, from the work you're doing. But I think using these life cycle moments as a way to reimagine spirituality, social activism and community building is a win win win that more of us are ready for right now. Orly Erez-Likhovski: Yes, that sounds amazing. I wanted to ask where we're nearing the end of the of the session, but I wanted to ask whether within your work that you just described, you feel, know, difference ⁓ the current Trump administration. I mean, we mentioned the beginning, the the problematic relationship toward the queer community ⁓ days, you whatever is coming from the halls of government, but in general from the American public. So maybe just say a couple of words about the status of the queer community now. ⁓ in the United States. Amichai Lau-Lavie: Yeah. I will I will just say I congratulate all of us for going beyond cliches and doing this entire talk without mentioning the fact that I had a very illustrious career as a drag queen. and Rebbitzin Hadassa Gross, who's the star of the movie Sabbath Queen, who many Orly Erez-Likhovski: we want to but you have so many things that you've done Amichai Lau-Lavie: Gross may she live forever and may her memory be a blessing 'cause she's not dead or alive, she's in the Dead Sea forever. ⁓ opened for me the way to be both very queer and very Jewish publicly. ⁓ And it happen, but she was invited to the White House under Biden for Pride Month. And I couldn't come for a bunch of reasons and I actually didn't want to. But here we are in 2026 ⁓ I am the proud bio dad, the gay father of three children in a very queer family. There are more of us throughout the spectrum of leadership who are out and proud in the US, in Israel, in Europe, elsewhere. There are heads of state who are openly gay. And the White House is not going to be marking pride in the US at this moment. the the polls are showing that you know, shifting perspectives. So on the one hand it's heartbreaking. On the other hand, the perspective of having lived along these few couple decades now in my mid in my fifties, is that things shift. Shift happens. Trump, may legacy not be ours for long. May we fight for ⁓ all ways of justice and see a shift there, here, everywhere. Grateful for where to be grateful for and You know, there's things Trump is doing that is making life better for some people, despite my deep disregard for his ideology and behavior. And so we need to know where to say yes and where to say no. I believe pride will persist. human ⁓ and the human will to love despite hate is larger, larger than life. and if we're thinking about where we've been and where people have hated and killed each other and are now working together, Israel and Germany, just as one example, and where places where people were incarcerated for being gay, for being Jewish, for being other who are now heads of state, we know that things shift. And Judaism, thousands of years old, is teaching us that we not only can, but we must evolve. And so my eyes ⁓ Are on the prize of the evolving story. And I think it's conversations like these, leaders like you, organizations like the ones we're working with, whether it's the Reform movement, IRAC Rabbis for Human Rights, that is is pushing the agenda and moving the needle. And it's not going to happen overnight, but it's definitely happening. Josh Weinberg: Amen. And Amichai, thank you so much for being with us and thank you for everything you're doing and for being the inspire inspiring creative Jewish leader who has really one in the political activism and another foot in what I like, you know, that we called spiritual entrepreneurship. and so ⁓ it and foot in New York and one foot in Jerusalem, as we say, you Bavel and Yerushalyim and going back and forth. ⁓ that's a lot of Amichai Lau-Lavie: At least and at least foot with high heels in the Dead Sea Josh Weinberg: Yes, yes. Orly Erez-Likhovski: You're both so you Amichai Lau-Lavie: Back of the other I'm also wearing my queer kippah by the way. Josh Weinberg: Yes, yeah. And and one foot always marching forward. so really thank you so much for being for being part of this conversation and for inspiring so many of our listeners. Orly Erez-Likhovski: Thank you, I think you really did with this amazing, you know, usually our final question is what makes you hopeful but you actually answered it before we even asked so it's really wonderful and I have to say that when I you know was in the pride parade last week it was really such a hopeful event and it like I looked around and I say, you know, this is what Jerusalem should be like this is what Israel should be like just filled with love, you know welcoming everyone and and I definitely agree with you that we are on the path forward. have so much to do. We've achieved so much, but of course we're going to continue until we get to full equality for everyone. So thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure. I want to say to our listeners that conversations like this are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. but that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if these conversations are important to you, please share this episode and help us keep this conversation going. Josh Weinberg: To stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to help us grow, make an engaging post on social media, leave a five-star review, maybe something along the lines of, you know, even if I don't necessarily identify as part of the LGBTQ community, I might think about adopting an identity just to use that as a gateway into conversations about human rights and civil rights. For instance, you know, you could use something like that. And send this episode to someone who should be part of this conversation. Thank you so much, and we hope to see you soon. Orly Erez-Likhovski: Thank you. Bye bye.