Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep.282 'Common Frustrations For MSK Clinicians - Part 3/4'' with Ben Cormack & Adam Meakins

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Ep.282 'Common Frustrations For MSK Clinicians - Part 3/4'' with Ben Cormack & Adam Meakins · The STA Clinician Podcast

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You're listening to the STA Clinician Podcast, connecting clinicians across healthcare.
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Hello, my life. Hey, people. Welcome to the STA Clinician Podcast,
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formerly known for the last nearly six years as the Sports Therapy Association Podcast.
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My name is Matt Phillips, creator of runchecklive.com. And as always,
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this episode is being recorded live on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube
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channel and Facebook page at eight o'clock UK time on a Tuesday.
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So we arrive at part three of our focus this month on common frustrations for MSK clinicians.
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And very shortly, I'm going to be joined by very special guest,
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Ben Cormack of Core Kinetic. That's the first time I've said core kinetic,
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not core kinetics. I'm proud of that.
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And Adam Meekins, the sports physio, which I'm very excited about.
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Ben and Adam are both super well-known in the industry and also together are
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founders of the Better Clinician Project, an online CPD and education platform
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for healthcare and rehabilitation professionals.
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And in this episode, very shortly, Adam and Ben are going to be discussing some
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of the common frustrations felt by MSA clinicians that they come across on their
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courses and give some advice on how practitioners can overcome these challenges.
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Before we go to that, I just want to say a thank, as always,
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to my guests in part two last week, who were Carla Bickerstaff,
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sports therapist and part of the Invictus Games medical team,
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and Emily Gilbert, chronic pain specialist and owner of Framework Sports Massage.
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Kyle and Emily gave a fantastic episode. I always say that, but it was a wonderful
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episode talking about their frustrations with the term soft skills,
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being called soft skills, and also their frustration of what seems like an ever-increasing
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number of very short, purely online qualifications,
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which then allow unsuspecting individuals to go and call themselves a sports therapist.
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So that's episode 282 of the STA
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Collision Podcast, available as always on YouTube and all podcast apps.
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Before I introduce our guests, just a quick thank you to everyone who's joined
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us live. If you have joined us live, then use this time to ask some questions,
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leave some comments, share some experiences.
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If you do, I can bring them up onto the screen on YouTube. So,
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for example, Gary Benson, founder of the STA, has joined us tonight. It says, evening all.
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Nikki Mansfield is here as well. Hey, Nikki, how are you doing?
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It says, evening all. Let's try and keep it clean.
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There's this fear that, oh, I'm not going to go into it. Thanks,
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Nikki. Ben and Adam, think of Matt's sensitive ears. I've got my ear defenders
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on. We're fine. I can't even hear what they're saying.
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Yeah, I'm not even going to go down that road. I'm sure there'll be some interesting
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comments later on and it makes me think of something.
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But anyway, so yeah, if you have joined us, then do take advantage of it.
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I love it when you join us live and thank you everybody to have.
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If you listen to the podcast, just a reminder, please subscribe to the podcast, which is free.
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And if you can leave a rating and a review, because it just helps the great
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word of our guests go higher up in the Google results. It's purely for that reason.
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And they give up their free time to share their wonderful experience and knowledge.
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So you can thank him by helping that knowledge appear higher in a search engine result.
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So do take some time to do that. Right, enough talking.
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Back to tonight's episode, Comfrustrations for MSK Clinicians,
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part three, with my special guests, Ben Cormack and Adam Meekins. Let's bring them up.
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How are you doing? Good evening.
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You're such pros. You look so awake and alive and full of youth now. Look at those smiles.
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Two minutes ago, if you'd seen them, guys, I was thinking, oh,
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let's just call it a day. It's just not going to happen. I don't think I'm going
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to make it through there.
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But you guys are just now just white teeth and smiles.
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That's fantastic. Thank you so much for getting up your time.
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I know you've had a hard day of filming stuff, a bit of collision project stuff.
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Is that what you've been doing? Nice segue, yeah.
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Fantastic. We did two upcoming subjects, didn't we, Adam?
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Yep. Hypermobility and high ankle sprains. All the H's today.
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Fantastic. That's what we're doing. That's great. An unlikely pairing,
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but, you know. They're not us.
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Well, both, actually. We'll be talking about that a little bit,
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which is so interesting. It's so great to have you on.
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First of all, just the elephant in the room. Well, not really an elephant,
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but Adam, how are you, man?
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I believe that you are. I've been better, thanks, Matt. But,
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yeah, I'm good. I'm holding up, thank you very much.
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I had an interesting couple of weeks, if not a month or so.
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So it's been a bit touch and go in places. I know we had to reschedule, I think, once maybe.
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Was it you had to reschedule or was it other stuff?
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I've had to reschedule so many things, I've forgotten. Of course.
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But yeah, I'm all right. This is your kidney, isn't it?
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It is, yeah. My right one has decided after 50
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odd years to decide to say adios
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and it's packed up not due to any lifestyle factors
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before anybody starts piping up all right i know it's not it's got nothing to
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do with that it's uh apparently i've been told i was born with a congenital
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defect and uh my consultant was quite surprised that it's lasted this long which
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she said was testament probably to my lifestyle not the other way around.
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I did make sure Adam knows that all of my kidneys are staying in my body and
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I will not be lending him one of mine.
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That's when you know who your real friends are. Yeah. When people come out and start to find.
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If you need one, you can have one. He was the exact opposite.
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You weren't touching mine. I was like, hands off my kidneys.
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In all honesty, would you want Big Cormac's blood running through your veins?
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Well, that's exactly what I've done. I've done it. It's just on my mind.
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God, I think that would. even if he offered it i'll turn it down the rest of
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your life i've seen these films with their personalities my blood yes anyway
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right so uh we start as we mean to continue so yeah but thank you adam and obviously
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we all wish you speedy recovery and that and yeah we'll rest,
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Right. So for listeners who aren't aware of you guys, I always say,
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I hope there's some people who are either listening or downloading the podcast.
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They don't know you, otherwise it's all a bit of a waste of time.
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It's tricky, isn't it? With such an extensive, long career, but maybe if we
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could give a short intro of your background and how you got to bothering to
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do the Better Clinician Project. Why did you do that? So Ben, maybe you can start.
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What? So the background to the Better Clinician Project? Well,
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you and how you ended up doing that today.
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Well, many years ago, I decided to go off and study in the wonderful world of
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sports therapy and then realized I didn't actually like sport that much and
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it's quite boring, isn't it?
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And so I like to do my wider kind of MSK stuff along the way.
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What have I done in my career? Pretty much most things from sport to,
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you know, more general practice.
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Done some things written a few articles in my
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time presented at a few conferences run a
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couple of cbd courses over over the past few years so so yeah and then we way
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back i think we first started talking about the bcp back in about 2019 and then
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managed to kick it off about two weeks before COVID started, I think.
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So that was all that. I actually think Adam may have done something with COVID
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just to, you know, make sure our online venture did better. But,
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you know, that's just a rumour.
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Thank you very much. You say a few years. You've been in the game for a while, haven't you?
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I would say a while, yes, a while, yes.
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I mean, judging by the lines on my face and, you know, the hurt in my soul,
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I have been around a while. So, you know, mate, 20 years.
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Oh, I was wondering. I was going to say, it's not even a decade.
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At our age, we can't even say a decade anymore. It's two decades,
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mate. It's probably a quarter of a century.
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I looked on my bio a while ago, and it said something like 15 years experience.
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And then I realized that it was fair. yeah i've been copying and pasting that
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for a while and it might have been a bit longer,
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it's a pretty scary isn't it okay well anyway thank you
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for coming on tonight and showing your experience adam your background and
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how did you end up meeting this one yeah so
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pretty much the same as ben many many years ago i
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didn't go straight into physio i did my first
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degree in exercise science so sports science
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was my first degree glorified personal trainer for a couple of years and then
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fell into physio by accident and yeah the rest is history really I've done various
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different jobs NHS private practice amateur sports professional sports and yeah then me and Ben,
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had a big disagreement to begin with we ended up almost uh well yeah almost coming to blows we had.
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An interesting checkered history me and ben have had and uh say through adversity
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and confrontation we have now developed a blossoming friendship and bromance
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i would probably say now and we are,
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say thick as thieves i think wherever there's been
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there's probably me and vice versa we're like Anton Deck now
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sometimes I feel like of the uh of the physiotherapy world
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we're uh always seem to stand on the same side of
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each other whenever we have photographs or videos taken a
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bit like Anton Deck do so there we go
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that's that's it which ones that I'm not the one I'm not the one who crashed
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his car you know and I can't remember which one of Anton Deck had the incident
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didn't he I think he ended up like smashing up his so yeah it's because he was
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not I suppose that has to be me with his alcohol problems, yeah. Yeah, it is.
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I'm proud to say I don't know which is which, so it's fun. No,
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exactly. That was my point.
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I'm not the one who went off the rails.
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Excellent. Right, thank you for those interests. Very touching.
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That was very nice, Adam. I'm sure Ben is smitten with that.
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Probably the nicest thing Adam's ever said to anyone. He's ever heard you say, yeah.
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He did, yeah. And you heard it here on the STA clinician podcast. There we go.
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Right, excellent. So, yeah, so long careers.
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I'm really excited that you've, like I say, I mean, I know you've both had your
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own personal frustrations and things, but I'm really interested about the frustrations
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which you have seen other therapists coming to your courses have,
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because there must be some repetitions in the things which can typically annoy MSI collisions.
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But before we do that, I'm very excited to repeat and say that you guys are
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coming to therapy show this year,
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November the 25th and 26th at the NEC Birmingham. Yes? Is that correct?
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It's official, isn't it? It's on the program. Now you can't get out of it.
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Well, I suppose you could.
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Yeah, we're going as the BCP. We've got a booth. We will be there to...
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Hawk our wares and wear rules
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and try to sign up members as they're coming in
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through the door hooking them in and tying them
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down to long-term subscriptions and tipping them
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money out their pocket to come and
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join the bcp that's exactly what we're going to be doing here you sound you
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sound really happy about that there's a certain kind of merriment in your voice
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that you've i i do have a little bit of what's the word trepidation about going
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because trade shows if it is a trade I'm not sure how it's worded, you know, therapy show.
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It's a CPD event with a trade show attached to it, or is it a trade show?
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That's a good description.
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Yeah, but trade shows are always these things that make my, yeah,
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make me feel a little bit awkward.
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My skin can crawl sometimes around them because it is, there is a lot of hard
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sell and pushy and promotion stuff.
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And in healthcare, I've got a little bit of an issue with that.
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And that's one of the frustrations I come across.
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And I'm going to talk about it later on about how clinicians find it a little
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bit hard sometimes to navigate that ethical dilemma of sales and therapy and
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trying to stay moral and righteous,
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but also earn a living to pay the pay the mortgage and keep the lights on in the clinic as well.
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It's a very frustrating area to work in. So, yeah, trade shows.
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Yeah, not my cup of tea, if I'm being honest. Yeah.
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It makes it very exciting for everyone else to have you along there this year.
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I think it's one of the highlights. And also you've got Jack Chu and Entourage back as well.
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And a few other faces are coming along. So it's going to make it very interesting.
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And maybe even a sign of where our industry is going, the fact that after so
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many years' absence and quite a few vocal kind of, no, that's not for me,
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that you're all there this year.
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Either means everything's going wrong and you're desperate, or maybe we're all
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kind of starting to collaborate a bit more. I don't know which one it is.
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Okay we've hit rock bottom therapy show maybe i
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don't know i like to think that it's actually more a case of
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collaboration and people are thinking all right well you know let's give it
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a go why not yeah anyway and then also yes a better collision project just in
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case people aren't aware better collision project.com yeah loads of exciting
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material on there fantastic education great platform and i recommend you all
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go along and then have a little look and if you are going to therapy show, then yeah,
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stand B01, unless my floor plan needs updating.
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But yeah, B01. I didn't know that.
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I didn't know that. I'll let you guys know. Right at the front,
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by the front door, mate. Exactly.
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I think it's pretty, yeah, just next to the janitor's cupboard.
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I think that's fine. So it's easier for them to kick us out if we do cause trouble.
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There's less being flown out through the front door, yeah. Less distance.
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You joke, but it probably is. Yeah. So very excited about that.
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And also, Ben, you are speaking this year. I know Adam spoke about...
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14, 24, 12 years ago. That was the last time he was invited.
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And then Ben, you're actually going to be speaking this year,
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which is very exciting as well. Yeah.
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Tell us a little bit about that. Oh, there it is.
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Just in case you forget your title. Apparently, I'm speaking 11.45 to 12.15 in Theatre A.
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You are a good memory. Very good. Yeah, with exercise for back pain,
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it might not work the way you think.
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Yes, so I'd better get my slides sorted, hadn't I? I can start that the night before. There you go.
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You can take a screenshot and that can be your phone cover. So there you go. Yeah, there we go.
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It'd be wonderful. we joke but if you are listening and you haven't been
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to any of ben's courses or you haven't seen much material with
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him fantastic educator and yeah i would encourage you
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to to put that in your little diary already that's
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day two on the 26th of november and 11 45 to 12 15 and the good news is that
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doesn't actually clash i don't know whether you've looked at the rest of the
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program yet which is available i have not you nearly clashed with one of the
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most popular speakers at therapy show this year um who is matt phillips host
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of the sta collision podcast but fortunately.
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Fortunately it's worked out pretty well because i'm on at 10 30 in
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the clinical skills lab which means it's a great morning
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i just it's not a plug or anything but arrive there have a cup of tea 10 30
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go and see me practical msk communication that works in the real world from
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socrates to patient-centered care half an hour to go over to the bcp stand b01
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just by the front door and then 11 45 make sure you go to theater a to see ben
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cormack with exercise for back pain it might not work the way you think.
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What a morning of educational pleasure. Sorted.
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So there you go. Very excited. Right. Let's crack on then with what this episode is all about.
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As I've said, you must meet thousands of MSI clinicians all over the world.
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You must see some common frustrations. And I suppose part of your job as educators
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is to try and combat those frustrations and kind of help people leave feeling
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a little bit more confident.
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You're kind enough to provide forks. I'm sure there's a massive list you could provide.
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So maybe we could go through them. I don't know whether you want to do it in
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any particular order. You can.
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You tell me, which one do you want to do first or do you want to read one out?
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You read one out. Go on. Okay, here we go.
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So, here we go. First, frustration for MSC clinicians, as recognized by Ben
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Cormack and other meekins of the Better Clinician Project.
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What is good information to trust?
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Expand please yeah so i think
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a lot of people you know i think look that we
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have an information overload in this day and age don't
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we whether that's you know research articles or opinions on the internet and
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i think one thing that i kind of encounter with people is they maybe don't know
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what good research is that would be a starting place you know that is this a
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reputable well done piece of research?
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Or is this someone, you know, throws out a strong opinion and kind of people
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are interested in whether that opinion, even though it might be strong, is it accurate?
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You know, so I think there's two elements there.
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There's, you know, who to trust in terms of people, in terms of good information.
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And there may be also, you know, when we actually get into that,
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the researchy type of stuff, which may happen less now.
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Twitter in its heyday was great for that. Yeah, it might be that people don't
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always know how good the information they're being fed is. And I think that can frustrate people.
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I often have people say to me, who should I follow? Where should I find information?
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So that's something that has a sense that I get.
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Yeah, pretty much the same for me as well so it's a
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case often you know when people go on
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courses or stuff like that you know they can hear one
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person say one thing and then you know a couple of weeks
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later they go to another person's course and something else
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can be said that's completely contradictory or completely the opposite and that
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adds a level of confusion and then there's some certainty creeps in as well
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and they're like well this person over there that I trusted and respected said
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this and Now this other person that I trust and respect has said something different.
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What do I do with that information? How do I deal with that?
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And I often say to people in those situations, which you're going to come across,
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is don't trust or believe either of them.
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That's, I think, a good place to be is to try to tolerate that there is a lot
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of misinformation out there.
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There is a lot of misinterpretation.
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And so you have to just keep your wits about you.
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You have to be skeptical and critical of all information we get nowadays.
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And I think that normally will mean you're going to be less likely fooled and
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taken advantage of, but it does mean you're going to have to put more effort
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and work into it it means you're going to have to,
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work a bit harder rather than being passive you're going to have to be active in your thinking and,
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that that sometimes is to say is a little bit hard for i think some people to
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accept in this day and age because it is who wants to have to spend extra effort
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when you don't have to or don't.
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That's really wise. I like that. I love it. I love it when we talk face to face
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because a lot of your material I don't like.
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He said, because it's just so shatty, but I know it's just me.
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It's just me. And I say as it is, but I know behind it from the very beginning,
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there's been such a desire from you just to get that out there.
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Just that two sentences is rather than asking who should i trust who should
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i follow take a step just work it out for yourself try and disprove everything
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you read it's a great answer don't trust anybody yeah that's good it's good,
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so is that what you would say to clinicians now are going oh geez is that the
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answer to it just take everything just be critical just be a critical thinker
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just do what science does you know make a hypothesis then try and disprove it
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and then work out whether uh, that's the thing to read.
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I suppose the only way to trust, you know, something is to sometimes to put the work in, isn't it?
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Is to, you know, be able to be analytical of something and, you know,
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formulate your own argument and opinion to some degree, you know?
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So I, I think that that's the point, isn't it?
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Is that, you know, one of the biggest skills anyone can have in this day and
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age is a little bit of critical thinking.
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Because of the amount of misinformation we have and the amount of different
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opinions, you know, if you're passionate about a subject, then,
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you know, you should learn as much about it as possible.
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I, you know, people always say, who should I go and listen to at courses or
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what courses should I do?
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And I say, well, you know, do lots of courses and just decide what you're interested in.
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You know, that people say, should I do this person's course?
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And I'm like, well, give it a go you know the only way you can work that out
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is to listen to it and say does it resonate with me and you know and and have
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a bit of faith in your own critical thinking i think,
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very cool that's the late great physiotherapist philosopher bruce lee said.
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That's where the league is job title yeah go
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go you know learn from
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everybody go and go and take knowledge from everybody and
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take what is useful disregard what you think is not useful and then the best
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bit is add what is uniquely your own to it as well and i think there you go
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absolutely that is basically what we should be doing as human beings working
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trying to learn our way through this.
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Complexity and uncertainty is is get ideas
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and opinions from people and research and other sources
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but then you know don't be afraid of adding your
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own thoughts and opinions and ideas to stuff as well there's nothing to say
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that you just have to follow what other people say and do be your own person
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as well start to synthesize and and put that evidence and that information to
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use and start to use it yourself,
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Yeah, I kind of hate the idea that I would teach and then it would be some form of method.
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I like to think that if I'm going to help clinicians improve in certain areas,
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they're being a better version of themselves, not another version of Ben or a system that he uses.
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You know, and I suppose none of the big systems, you know, we can name lots
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of three-letter acronyms and this, that and the other, have ever really appealed
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to me because I've just got my own flavour of doing things.
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And, you know, whether that's right or wrong, I don't know. But is it any more
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right or wrong of their version?
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So I think we should, people should have the courage to say,
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I really enjoy doing these things and I can bring lots of different skills together.
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And I've got enough confidence in myself to say, I don't need to have to have
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someone else's system that they invented 50 years ago to be better than I am.
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Maybe I can just be a better version of myself.
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A better clinician. A better clinician. And we did this thing,
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Matt, about seven years ago called the better clinician.
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How much of it, I'm interested, because we are all kind of similar age.
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Oh, steady on. We won't have that. We won't have that. We won't have that, Matt.
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Well, within the same decade. But I mean, like, how much of it is because we've reached that age?
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Because we've all been through since like 2000 or something.
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We've seen a lot of three-letter acronyms. we've probably done
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it and then we've realized that we probably
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thought that was everything and then we realized it wasn't and
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then we move on to the next one so we've had the joy of going through all
23:00
of the kind of like core stability and i imagine we've all done squats on fit
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balls and implemented that and all the training before you did the bench and
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then we saw that wasn't quite the case we've been through the ta and they're
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kind of like getting that whole system of and we realized that's not quite necessary
23:14
and then we do whatever it is functional screening and movements and all that.
23:18
So, I mean, that's a real advantage for us. And I kind of think that experience
23:22
makes us what we are today and makes it easier to do that.
23:25
But for a younger clinician who hasn't been through all of that yet,
23:28
20 years of realizing that things evolve, how easy is it to get to tell them that? Is it a bit like,
23:36
I don't know. Have you found any way of getting through to 20-year-olds who
23:39
hasn't lived what we've lived, who still thinks that this is the answer to everything?
23:43
Was that too deep? Sorry. No, no, I haven't got through to 20-year-olds.
23:47
I don't think I can get through to some 20-year-olds.
23:52
I think there's no substitution for time and experience and you have to put reps in.
23:58
And that means reps in life.
24:02
It's like people say to me, how can I learn quicker?
24:05
How can I get more knowledge as quick as i can i'm like you
24:08
can't you you know you've you've got to
24:11
give things time and you've got to stay consistent and
24:14
you've got to put the reps in there are no shortcuts to knowledge there
24:18
are you know life hacks that you can do
24:21
or there's an optimum huberman protocol for reading
24:25
evidence and research you know it's just it's just
24:28
not that straightforward it has to
24:31
say just take time and effort and
24:34
you have to grind it out and you will get better
24:37
as time goes on if you put the work in and that's that's the key message it's
24:42
like it's like training you know you're gonna have to take and accept that at
24:47
the beginning when you're starting bench pressing or running you're gonna be
24:51
shit at it you ain't gonna be able to push much you ain't gonna be able to run a kilometer that fast.
24:58
But you train at it, you stay consistent at it, you keep digging away at it,
25:03
and it gets easier and you get better at it.
25:05
It's no difference with clinical skills and reading research and understanding
25:11
things and being critical and skeptical.
25:13
It just, it's a process.
25:16
It's not, as I say, it's not an end goal, it's no destination.
25:20
I think that's the other thing that a lot of people have to get out of their heads.
25:23
They need to stop thinking you know there's a pinnacle
25:26
or a point that they're going to reach there isn't it's
25:30
just it's a consistent thing that has to just be done yeah i the fun is in the
25:37
journey isn't it almost do you see what i mean where people are looking for
25:40
the end point but you know well i know well we know where the end point of you
25:45
know life is six foot under yeah Yeah,
25:49
so it has to be a bit of a enjoying the journey process, doesn't it?
25:55
And I think suddenly people want to shortcut that a little bit sometimes through
26:00
a system that suddenly makes them, you know, but if you enjoy the journey,
26:05
well, would you like to learn the system on day one and just apply it,
26:09
you know, the same way every day for the rest of your life?
26:12
You know, how boring would that be, right? Do you know what I mean?
26:16
Reaching the pinnacle of your life on day one and then just doing the same thing forever.
26:21
You know, I don't think that sounds like enjoying the journey to me.
26:24
But I've got one last little saying there, Matt. Youth is wasted on the young.
26:30
You guys are throwing them out there tonight. This is great. Very wise.
26:34
Yeah. But, you know, again, it's a bit like life, isn't it?
26:37
That, you know, if you mature in other ways, as you know, your physicality goes
26:44
one way, your smartness, hopefully, and your experience go the other.
26:48
There's got to be a trade-off, hasn't there, in this life, Guy?
26:53
Very cool. No, some great advice there. Really nice. If you're listening,
26:56
you joined us live and you've got some comments on that.
26:58
Maybe you're younger, maybe you're older, maybe you can relate to what's being
27:02
said, then we'd love to hear from you. Just drop something into the chat.
27:06
Okay, let's move on to the next frustration. I've got here uncertainty around
27:12
diagnosis and treatment.
27:15
Yeah, I can imagine that's frustrating. How would you expand on that then?
27:18
Yeah that's another one again I think education systems
27:22
does a very poor job at helping clinicians appreciate
27:25
and understand this you know and
27:28
I think a lot of clinicians leave universities and
27:32
their courses and their training with a
27:35
misunderstanding that you know every patient they see
27:38
they should be able to give a clear structural diagnosis
27:43
as to why something's hurting and you know
27:46
what the problem is and be able to explain that
27:49
easily somebody and the patient when the person will
27:52
accept it and as you know in the real world it just doesn't go that way like
27:57
that very much at all it's not that it never does that because sometimes it
28:00
can you know broken bone can be quite easy to diagnose and it's quite a straightforward
28:05
explanation but when pain is not quite that simple.
28:10
It becomes a little bit difficult and hard to deal with and hard to manage and
28:14
hard to accept. And I think a lot of,
28:18
therapists sometimes don't like to accept or talk about uncertainty because
28:22
of the fear of it making them look, appear ignorant, stupid, and foolish.
28:27
And I think that's something that a lot struggle with as well. No, I certainly did.
28:32
And I've got better at accepting that now.
28:35
I'm quite happy to look a bit foolish and sound a bit stupid from time to time
28:40
now, because I've done it many times.
28:41
And I think, again, it gets easier the more times you do it.
28:44
The more times you've been wrong, it's easier being wrong.
28:48
Absolutely as you like to point out all the time.
28:53
No i don't don't don't make paint me out to be the bad one,
28:58
It's like domestic going on now. But I think it's cool as well when you realize
29:02
that this fear is that the patient is going to not trust you anymore.
29:05
And they just want to get better. In fact, I think they like it when we change
29:09
our minds and we kind of like realize, oh, this isn't quite as I thought.
29:12
You know, I think once we realize the patient.
29:15
I don't think there's anything more honest and genuine than sometimes saying
29:20
to somebody, you know, fuck, I've made a mistake here.
29:22
It's not quite right. And admitting that shows humility, shows honesty.
29:26
And I think these are great traits to demonstrate in
29:29
front of your patients and I think a lot of patients do gravitate
29:33
and levitate towards that rather than you trying to cover
29:36
it up or bullshit around it I think
29:39
sometimes you say just admitting that you're a human and humans do make mistakes
29:44
but it's how you deal with them it's how you manage them it's how you cope with
29:48
them that's what that's what the true character building side of it shows so
29:53
yeah I always tell clinicians don't be ashamed to sometimes say to your patients,
29:57
oh, it's not quite what I thought it was.
29:59
This has now appeared and this is now making me feel something that it could
30:02
be this and this and this instead.
30:05
And I've never had a problem with that. I think most patients,
30:07
as they do accept that, they do understand that things are uncertain and a little
30:13
bit hard to pin down sometimes. And it isn't until later on down the line that
30:16
it becomes a bit clearer.
30:19
Yeah. Yeah. Probabilities and hypotheses changes
30:22
don't they over time with new information and
30:26
more discussion and someone tells
30:28
you something that you you know changes something
30:32
but at the same time they may not have said
30:35
it you know because everyone's rushed and you know kind of you know doing the
30:40
job and that type of stuff so so yeah you know I think that that embracing a
30:46
little bit of uncertainty and what is it what's the perfect treatment you know
30:51
and being able to be a bit adjustable adaptable flexible.
30:55
Probably is a pretty good thing i think along the way
30:58
you know one of the worst thing i think you can be is cast iron
31:01
certain about everything right because then you don't have
31:05
the flexibility and the wiggle room to change something
31:08
along the way strange isn't
31:11
it though we really need to turn we've talked about this on
31:14
the podcast before but it's almost like we need to turn the
31:17
whole model of education upside down and just rather
31:20
than this idea of you're the specialist you can wear this white coat
31:23
you know everything and you're standing up here and you're going to tell the
31:26
patient how you're going to fix them it needs to start off with that conversation is
31:29
okay we're going to try this you know you're
31:32
human you're complex we're going to do this this works for
31:35
somebody else and just have that that that kind of faith that you're not this
31:41
kind of operator you're not going to you haven't got they're not a car you haven't
31:44
got a manual which is going to go oh yeah this is we need to screw this on here
31:47
because it's a much healthier place to start isn't it and i guess it encourages
31:50
you to ask more questions as well you know which we know is so important.
31:54
I think one of the problems is in the MSK world and pain, it seems quite uniquely,
32:00
you know, difficult in some ways, doesn't it?
32:03
And very, very unclear cut, especially when your tools seem to be kind of,
32:08
you know, mechanical tests or whatever, or signs and symptoms.
32:12
And I think pain is quite uniquely positioned in the body as something that's
32:17
really particularly quite unclear, isn't it?
32:19
You know, you can't take blood pressure like objectively and you can't take
32:24
blood, you know, composition or sugars or whatever to create some kind of objective measure.
32:32
You're only going on what someone tells you and what you can provoke pain from.
32:37
And I think that inherently all that does seem to be quite difficult,
32:41
doesn't it? It does, you know, it does seem to be quite difficult.
32:46
David Poulter has joined us sorry to interrupt but it is David Poulter so I
32:49
mean you can understand now he's probably on a bike somewhere there's a nice
32:52
comment here based on what we're saying David thanks for joining us by the way
32:55
David I'm sure you are on a bike every day should be a school day experience
32:58
gives you the test before the lesson hence learn from someone else's experience if you can,
33:03
very wise sorry Adam I interrupted you what were you going to say?
33:07
I've forgotten now I'm sorry mate.
33:11
I think it was going about you know how to how to
33:15
deal and manage with that uncertainty and I
33:18
do think you know it takes it takes
33:21
a little bit of experience and time and practice and
33:24
errors yourself in how to you know how to deal with uncertainty and explain
33:28
it to others because I do think sometimes the words we use can be misinterpreted
33:34
by our patients and you know there
33:36
is this there is this problem I think sometimes when you tell a patient,
33:41
or we don't know, or we're not quite sure,
33:44
that sometimes makes people lose trust and faith.
33:49
I think I tried to navigate around that by saying to people,
33:53
the reason that I don't know, the reason that I'm uncertain is because of this, this, and this.
33:58
And I think it's the explanations around the uncertainty that's better rather
34:03
than just saying, we don't know, or we're not sure, because that isn't, I think, managed well.
34:10
The person isn't going to tolerate that uncertainty well.
34:13
So if you've got a person with a shoulder pain and you've probably got three
34:18
or four or five differential diagnoses in your mind thinking what it could be
34:23
and you're not sure which one it is, explain that to the person.
34:27
Explain that you've got these differential diagnoses and the reason why it's
34:31
hard for you to determine which one it is because there's a lot of overlap.
34:35
They all sometimes can present similarly.
34:38
The tests that we do are not that accurate to specific tissues.
34:42
They all sit very close to each other so we could be stressing and
34:45
straining multiple things together but then you
34:48
know finish it off with that reassurance that says but
34:51
we know that all these differential diagnoses can be managed relatively similarly
34:56
and they have the same sort of outcomes and prognoses and to say that i think
35:02
is going to be much better received and tolerated by your patient than just
35:06
saying i don't know what's causing your shoulder pain yeah bye.
35:12
Yeah yeah it's very true is this are we getting like a kind of a little window
35:16
into what the better collision project is basically about then is the these
35:20
are sort of topics you'll cover which which yeah pretty much,
35:24
we well we cover all sorts of things in you know clinical practice but you know
35:28
we do navigate uncertainty or we try to help people navigate uncertainty but you know we cover.
35:34
Pathologies we go into anatomy we talk biomechanics
35:38
we demonstrate clinical assessment tests
35:42
we talk about specificities and sensitivities we
35:46
get guests on to help us you know with their expertise
35:49
and thoughts and opinions on stuff and then we talk about
35:52
you know the general strifes and troubles of clinical life
35:55
as well you know about the difficulties in
35:59
communication trying to motivate people behavior
36:02
change you name it we we do it all on the better
36:05
clinician product not just about yeah assessments
36:09
and special tests very cool
36:12
okay brilliant right then
36:15
where are we 38 cool number three of
36:18
our common frustrations for msk clinicians which
36:21
you have come across on your courses and things number three is not being able
36:24
to practice the way you want what were you referring
36:28
to with that frustration yeah I think the frustration I
36:31
hear from a lot of people maybe about you know where they work or these type
36:36
of things is that there's kind of you know sometimes they're told to do things
36:40
in a certain way or you know follow a certain way of working or you know those
36:47
kind of things so people aren't always given freedom.
36:51
To express themselves, if you like.
36:53
And I think people do find that frustrating, you know, that they have to do
36:57
a certain amount of this or a certain amount of bookings or,
37:00
you know, they have to do manual therapy or they have to do exercise or something,
37:04
you know, whatever, whatever that might be.
37:07
And, you know, I think lots of people want to be able to, you know,
37:11
do things the way that they want to be able to do it and should have the autonomy to do that.
37:16
So kind of a frustration that I sense from people is they're not always allowed
37:21
to kind of, you know, to have that freedom, if you like.
37:27
Could you give me the example? Yeah, same with me. Well, I find a lot of people,
37:31
you know, the systems where they work constrain them hugely.
37:36
You know, if you are working in the National Health Service,
37:39
you have to follow protocols and guidelines that sometimes are probably not
37:44
really in the best interest of that person that you're currently seeing at the moment.
37:48
So you may be told how many sessions you can have for that person,
37:52
you know, and sometimes have...
37:55
Sees through 70% of people with that type of condition, but there's always going
37:59
to be some that need more.
38:02
And sometimes you can't do that, which can leave you feeling that you've done
38:06
half a job and you're frustrated and feel like you haven't had a good day at
38:10
work because you haven't done the best that you could do.
38:13
So I think, you know, there's those factors there.
38:15
Time constraints as well. Some people would like to
38:18
have longer with their patients to be able to
38:21
talk about things a bit more in depth and go through things a
38:24
bit clearer and perhaps you know re-emphasize things two
38:27
or three times but they just haven't got the time to do it so
38:30
there's a lot of time constraints there that build up and
38:33
add pressure and then of course you get the old financial constraints
38:36
as well if you're working in private practice and that's you know where I find
38:41
there's that fine line of trying to navigate that between paying for a comfortable
38:47
lifestyle and your bills but also making sure that you go home and can look
38:51
at yourself in the mirror and feel like you haven't conned people,
38:54
fleeced them, ripped them off.
38:55
And I find a lot of clinicians sometimes feel a little bit difficult and need
39:01
some, you know, help in trying to work out where they can find that line.
39:06
And it isn't easy. It is challenging.
39:09
It is hard because unfortunately, and again, I say this many times
39:11
is that being an evidence-based healthcare
39:14
professional isn't really that rewarding sometimes you
39:18
know emotionally and financially and you know you can enter into this job and
39:25
this profession and you can make a lot of money if you're prepared to let your
39:29
ethics and morals slide a bit and I think good healthcare professionals often
39:34
don't do that they don't want to do that,
39:37
And so it can hit them in the wallet and in the frustration department.
39:42
And again, it's the system. Our healthcare system doesn't reward well for good,
39:50
sensible, simple, evidence-based management.
39:53
It just rewards for the over-complexity and the gadgets and the gizmos and the
39:58
bollocks and the bullshit.
39:59
Well, I think that's a great example. You have kind of new technologies,
40:04
and I'm not going to name any new technologies. Shockwave!
40:07
Oh i didn't you didn't have to yeah man
40:11
will get sued not not me anyway but you
40:14
know you might have a situation whereby you're expected
40:17
to use a certain fancy gadget or something that you don't believe in or something
40:22
like that and and i think again that might frustrate people i think you know
40:26
especially in europe they have certain you know machines that everyone is expecting
40:32
to be used And again, I'm not going to name any brand names.
40:36
And, you know, it might be frustrating to wave a thing about on someone for
40:41
20 minutes of a session when you know that you're great at all this other stuff
40:45
that might help someone,
40:47
but you're kind of expected by everyone to do something like that,
40:52
you know, kind of more of a technician type of thing.
40:55
And and you know i think people probably do
40:57
find that a little frustrating right or you know everyone expects to get a massage
41:02
you know and it's and it might be you know that you don't think that a that's
41:06
the right thing to help them you know or that that's kind of the best use of
41:11
everyone's time or effort and those type of things and i'm you know i think
41:15
people probably do find that very frustrating yeah.
41:18
We've talked about this in relation to some of the advantages or those disadvantages,
41:23
the advantages of going private, of getting out of the NHS, and suddenly you
41:26
can set your own times and you'll be able to spend more time with that patient and have that freedom.
41:30
But I guess another thing we've talked about is sometimes when people go private,
41:34
especially if they're working by themselves, we were talking about this last
41:36
week actually, then they're totally disconnected and they haven't got that kind
41:39
of support from fellow colleagues.
41:41
So it's kind of swings and roundabouts, isn't it? It's tricky finding that happy balance.
41:46
People on your courses are they a mixture of private and NHS or what do you see mostly,
41:52
I personally yeah big mixture of lots of people I would say probably more private
41:59
I would say myself a bit more private yeah because I suppose it's different
42:02
right here isn't it bit of a mix yeah definitely different frustrations,
42:07
excellent okay moving on to the fourth frustration,
42:13
this is an interesting one actually yeah Something quite close to Adam's heart,
42:17
I think. Dealing with other clinicians' erroneous narratives.
42:21
Yeah. By that, did you mean when you get a patient or client come to see you
42:25
and they're saying, oh, well, the last person told me this?
42:28
Or do you mean, yeah, pretty much.
42:32
Yeah. Well, yeah. That's always one of the biggest challenges is unpicking,
42:37
you know, I've been told it's this, or this is the best treatment,
42:41
or I've received this before, you know, and it kind of, sometimes not everything
42:46
people get told is helpful, right?
42:50
And if you were to go on and go into AI right now and ask it for the three best
42:55
exercises for back pain, I'm sure you would get a popular opinion rather than
43:00
potentially an evidence-based one, you know, because it's going to get its information.
43:04
I don't think it's going to trawl through the best research papers that we would probably go through.
43:10
It's going to trawl through the most popular websites, I suspect,
43:13
you know, so you get back probably a bunch of bird dogs and core stability stuff
43:18
and these type of things.
43:20
So I think, you know, a lot of working with people is sometimes dealing with all of the stuff.
43:26
I think Louis Gifford said it, didn't he? The, you know, every therapist a patient
43:31
has seen before is a red flag or something like that.
43:34
I might have paraphrased that really badly. You have?
43:38
I have. All right. Well, hopefully you can put me to rights,
43:41
bang me to rights. But anyway, so it's, you know, people pick up so much information
43:47
that might be inaccurate or more than anything might be unhelpful.
43:52
And so not only have you got to break through that challenge,
43:55
you've then got to maybe suggest something that doesn't always fit with that
44:00
narrative. And that, I think, can be a big challenge, right?
44:03
Yeah and and the other problem i find a
44:06
lot of the time is that you know we're all aware that
44:09
mixed messages can really screw people
44:13
up yeah it can be really difficult for people
44:16
to to deal with and to manage and and i find you know myself personally i am
44:22
sitting in front of a patient who is who's got a belief or has been given some
44:27
information that isn't you know the most accurate it correct or just complete and utter bullshit.
44:33
And I'm sitting here thinking, do I need to challenge this?
44:38
Do I need to change this person's ideas about what's going on?
44:42
Or is the process of me doing this now going to add more confusion,
44:46
more complexity and make them actually have poorer and worse outcomes?
44:51
Am I actually going to get in the way and delay their natural history?
44:57
Would it be best for me to sometimes just stick a sock in it and shut the fuck
45:02
up and not, and not chart this question.
45:06
Yeah. Not, not challenging question. You know, I'm really interested if you
45:09
do you ever stick a sock in it and just shut up or, I mean, a serious question
45:14
in clinic because it's, I mean, it's really interesting because.
45:16
Oh, you didn't mean just in life.
45:18
Well, that's, that's, that's, that's another episode in itself,
45:21
but I'm really curious because it's, it's really nice to have you on the show.
45:24
And this happens to me quite a lot. and I think a few other questions as well,
45:27
because I haven't seen you in person for probably 12 years since Manchester
45:31
30X, but I know from talking to you now, it's reminded me that.
45:37
You're probably going to get
45:37
sick of hearing this, but there just seems to be such a contrast between,
45:42
what you're saying now and the philosophy and wisdom and calmness and Bruce
45:48
Lee quotes that are coming out and what people see on your Instagram feed or something.
45:53
And forgive me if you're sick of hearing that, because there's a lot more capital
45:56
letters. You haven't said anything in capital letters tonight.
45:58
Whereas if you go to Instagram feed, it's almost where you vent and let it out.
46:04
Obviously, it makes us wonder, and probably other clinicians,
46:07
and dinosaurs, that's a good word, isn't it?
46:09
They wonder whether in clinic you're the same. If a patient comes in,
46:13
you're going, watch this video, and you put the video on behind you with you
46:16
saying, look at this guy, look at him.
46:18
But I doubt you do because you wouldn't, because I just don't doubt you would.
46:22
So how, yeah. The problem with social media is you don't get the context.
46:26
You don't get the nuance behind what I'm trying to say.
46:30
It's a two-dimensional medium.
46:33
You can't have the same sort of discussions and interactions.
46:38
You can't pick up on the tones and the inflections as well as you can doing face-to-face.
46:45
But, you know, I try to be as genuine and as authentic as I possibly can,
46:49
both on social media and both in front of my patients.
46:53
And that is with warts and errors and, you know, things that are not probably
46:58
most politically correct all the time.
47:02
I try to be, but I do, yes, stick a sock in it to answer that other question a lot of the time.
47:08
When I have a patient who's telling me something that I don't think is 100%
47:15
accurate, but I also don't think it's going to cause this person any significant detriment or harm,
47:21
I would just probably sit there, bite my lip, bite my tongue,
47:27
cry a little bit inside and just say, if I start to try and do the right thing
47:33
in inverted commas here, it's probably going to require more effort and energy.
47:38
Than I probably have got and probably more time than I've got to do.
47:43
And the result afterwards probably is going to be worse than just letting it
47:48
slide and just letting it carry.
47:50
So I think it all depends on, again, about what are the downstream consequences
47:56
of this information that this person's got or this thought or belief that this
48:00
person's got and try to work out whether it is worthwhile challenging it, question it.
48:07
Re-educating around it or not.
48:10
And I do think a lot of the time, you know, we get a little bit hung up on semantics,
48:14
on words, on definitions, and we all have this writing reflex where we think,
48:19
oh no, you said tendinosis when actually it's tendinopathy.
48:24
I need to re-educate. And I'm like, just let that fucking slide.
48:27
Come on. It doesn't matter whether you use an opathy or an osis or an itis.
48:32
Nobody gives a flying fucking shit about that stuff.
48:35
And I think that's the type of stuff that, you know, we can let slide very easily.
48:40
But when you've got somebody that's saying, oh, I've been told I've got a hook-shaped
48:44
bone on the top of my shoulder that's digging down and I've got to have this shaved off.
48:49
Now I'm starting to think, okay, they've now got this idea that they're going
48:53
to need some aggressive intervention like surgery that's probably not needed or necessary.
48:58
That is the type of time that I would say, well, okay, let's talk about that a bit more.
49:03
Let's see if we can try to change that belief and narrative around that.
49:08
So again, it is always, it depends, I'd say, on many, many things about whether
49:13
we need to correct and challenge previous information from other clinicians
49:18
and those mixed messages are going to cause problems or not.
49:22
Yeah, there's that meme, isn't there, of someone going, oh my God,
49:25
someone's wrong on the internet, right?
49:28
And I don't think if you correct something, everything people say,
49:33
I don't think that endears you.
49:35
But I don't think that does a lot for therapeutic alliance, does it?
49:39
You know, as Adam said, if someone said they had a tendonitis,
49:43
you wouldn't go, oh my God, well, actually, technically, there is no inflammation.
49:47
You know what what is the relevance for that
49:50
person particularly whereas if
49:53
they say my previous therapist told
49:56
me i should never walk again or i have the knee of a 300 year old or you know
50:01
something like pelvis is unstable i need to push back in yeah you know something
50:07
that's fundamentally going to be problematic for their conceptualization of
50:11
the problem i think that And again,
50:14
that's learning where to say, you know, what is the benefit of this?
50:18
Is there a benefit in saying something or actually not saying something?
50:22
And sometimes, you know, not saying something is actually more powerful than saying something.
50:27
But it can very much be an art form, can't it? You know, so,
50:31
you know, I think Adam brings up a good point there about it.
50:34
How relevant is that information to what you're trying to achieve?
50:38
If it isn't, does it really matter? Because who wants that person just nitpicking at them?
50:44
You know, whoever liked that person?
50:47
And I don't think that that would work for your relationship.
50:51
Great. Great answers. Amazing. Wonderful.
50:55
The time's gone. It's already 8.53. and that's fantastic guys,
50:58
so yeah Better Coalition Project you're obviously going to be like we said at
51:02
Therapy Expert that's not till November 25th and 26th what have you guys got
51:05
coming up before then which our listeners and viewers might be interested in
51:09
knowing about either as a Better Coalition Project or individually,
51:13
Well, in the BCP, you know, every month we do a new topic. So we've currently
51:18
doing soft tissue injuries this month.
51:20
So we're having a review of, you know, some basic soft tissue problems,
51:25
calf strains, hamstring strains, and how to best assess them and treat them.
51:30
And then we have a guest module afterwards.
51:34
And this next one, we're going to be having one of our Pilates instructors coming
51:39
on to talk about all things around Pilates and pain.
51:44
So there's a few next months on the BCP.
51:47
And then obviously...
51:49
It's about prices because it's like, I mean, I like shouting out when it's,
51:53
it is cheap. I mean, I'll say that out loud, it's cheap. Yeah, no, it is.
51:58
It is ridiculous. Ridiculously cheap. It is cheap.
52:01
It's £15 a month, and that gets you access to over 60 different topics that
52:07
we've covered over the last five years.
52:10
And, you know, there's over probably 500 sources of information on there for you to go.
52:16
So you get instant access to all the back catalogue, and, say,
52:18
every month we add to it as well. So it's always constantly growing.
52:23
And you can come and go as much as you like. There's no contracts,
52:26
no commitments. You can drop in and out one month.
52:29
Come back two or three months later on if you want to if
52:32
there's a topic that piques your interest or if you want to commit a
52:35
bit more you can sign up for a yearly subscription for
52:38
150 pounds a year which basically gets you
52:41
two months free so that means to say
52:44
it's a little bit cheaper on the monthly process but you just got a slightly
52:46
longer commitment and then we've got a growing community as well and I think
52:50
that's the other benefit the BCP is that we've got this members only group where
52:55
a lot of people are sharing their frustrations and their concerns and their
52:59
clinical cases between each other as well.
53:02
So it's not just me and Ben out there just giving our advice and sticking our mags on board. Yeah.
53:08
We have some special guests as well. We,
53:12
Yeah, we wanted to turn this into like, you know, it was, you know, it's a community.
53:16
We want to try. I know this word gets thrown around quite a lot these days,
53:19
but, you know, we really wanted it to try and just not be me and Ben giving
53:23
our worldly advice and experience and all that sort of stuff.
53:27
We wanted everybody to chip in and learn from each other. And that's the whole point of it as well.
53:33
So, yeah, which it is doing and it is growing and it's, yeah,
53:36
it's getting there and hopefully year on year continues to get better.
53:40
I've always been a little surprised that we don't have to pay them,
53:43
actually, to listen to us.
53:49
It's commendable, though. You have made it really accessible,
53:51
and I commend you on that.
53:52
And it's because a lot of people worry about how much it's going to cost.
53:54
But I think you said at the beginning it was like the price of a coffee a week or something.
53:57
It's just like it really isn't that much and what you can get from it.
54:00
We know we've got a lot of SDA members, and I've spoken to a lot of people who definitely rate it.
54:05
If you are listening live and you want to rate it, this is your chance to put
54:07
something in the comments.
54:08
And also, I'm going to take a risk here, but is it still, have you still got
54:12
the We Have My Patient thing going on?
54:15
Yeah. That was there for a while. Is that still going? Yeah,
54:17
that's a good little added extra from us to them and them to us. Yeah.
54:22
So if you're members of either, you know, so you get that kind of their software.
54:27
If you, you know, don't, if you get bored of listening to our crap, you can go and,
54:32
you know, play with their much better software than
54:35
our education but it's a case if you pay for
54:38
one and you get the other to certain extent you get
54:41
access to the rehab guru's exercise prescriber and
54:44
their account so you can up your patients on you
54:47
know exercise programs if you're a
54:50
bcp member but if you're a rehab guru member and
54:52
you can then also access the bcp cpd
54:56
as well great deal great deal very good
54:59
right okay um i promise i
55:01
wouldn't especially after your long day i wouldn't keep you past nine
55:04
o'clock so i really appreciate that if people want to find out more
55:07
than as i said before better clinician project.com loads of information on there
55:11
and also you can go to core kinetic.co.uk for ben's website and then adam meekins.com
55:17
for adam meekins website still using the sports physio though no i've shut that
55:23
down now i feel a bit yeah there's a part of me now that feels a little bit,
55:27
I don't work in, like Ben says, you know, I don't work in sports and I'm like.
55:31
I haven't worked in sports for over 10 years, probably 15 years if I'm being honest now.
55:36
So I feel a little bit, do I need to still keep the sports physio title, but.
55:42
I've had it for so long. I'm a little bit reluctant to let it go,
55:44
but I've certainly let the webpage go. So no, it's adammeekins.com.
55:48
The artist formerly known as the symbol.
55:52
Yeah, exactly. I thought the symbol would be. I don't know. Yeah, exactly.
55:58
Right now, I really appreciate your time. We just do it for the fun, Matt.
56:02
That's now we're, we're, you know, it's all for the lols as the kids would say.
56:08
All for the lol down with the kids.
56:09
Right. Amazing. Thanks so much. before we just end just
56:12
to let you know we'll be doing part four of this
56:15
common frustrations for MSA clinicians next week my guest
56:19
is going to be a lot of you will know the wonderful Tristan Attenborough of
56:21
movementpossible.co.uk who's going to be talking about the frustrations caused
56:25
by cognitive biases and judgment noise now if that's confusing to you then basically
56:29
it's something you should really tune into and Tristan explains these natural
56:34
mechanisms we've got of only noticing the patients who got better and little
56:38
things like that which can totally eclipse what's really going on in a clinic.
56:42
And if you understand and accept it as part of being human, then you can very
56:46
much look after yourselves a lot better and stop beating yourselves up.
56:49
And also, most importantly, look after clients better.
56:52
So I honestly don't know many people better who explain this currently than
56:55
Tristan Attenborough. He's done some great presentations on this.
56:58
So I would recommend that you join us, if you can, live next week,
57:02
Tuesday, April 28th. We're now with Tristan Attenborough on that topic.
57:05
And if you can't join us live, then obviously it will be released as a podcast
57:09
on all popular apps and so try and join us with that but for now i just want
57:13
to say once again thanks to tonight's guest ben cormack of call kinetic thank you very much ben.
57:18
Thank you for having me. Absolute pleasure. And Adam Meekins,
57:22
formerly known as the sports physio, now known as AdamMeekins.com.
57:26
Thank you, Adam, for coming along.
57:28
Cheers, Matt. Been a pleasure, mate. And thank you, everybody,
57:31
who joined us live. Always appreciate you guys coming along live and for questions you put in there.
57:36
If you haven't got any questions and you're watching this on YouTube or even
57:40
the podcast, then YouTube's probably the place to go.
57:42
I do make sure any comments or questions you've got are forwarded to our guests.
57:45
So if you want to keep the conversation going, what we're talking about tonight,
57:47
just go to YouTube, Sports Topia Association channel, and I will forward any
57:51
questions you have onto our guests.
57:53
But for now, that's it. Thanks everyone who joined us for the live recording
57:56
and everyone listening to the podcast.
57:58
I hopefully see some of you for the next recording. Until then,
58:01
as always, take care of yourselves and of each other.